Hours building: Questions, Ideas, Advice, Countries etc
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Didn't you say you had a COMMERCIAL licence? Then what is this garbage about working for free??? A professional pilot is just that - it is a profession, for which he/she is PAID. You have skills and qualifications that set you apart from the private pilot. You are not an amateur who is worth nothing.
Pilots who prostitute the industry by working for free are not doing anybody any favours. If you work for free to build your hours, and then put your hand out for money because you have the time up, I would hope that your "employer" would boot you out the door and take on another free-working prostitute.
And "employers" who use free workers might think they are getting a bargain, but in effect they are getting the lowest standard of workmanship from somebody who places no value on their abilities.
I understand that it is tough to get a start, but if you lower your standards this far, you are making life tougher for everybody else, including people coming along after you.
Many a journalist has received free training in return for pushing a perticular school. That in effect is a wage. Please don't continue past your training qualifications in this fashion.
Pilots who prostitute the industry by working for free are not doing anybody any favours. If you work for free to build your hours, and then put your hand out for money because you have the time up, I would hope that your "employer" would boot you out the door and take on another free-working prostitute.
And "employers" who use free workers might think they are getting a bargain, but in effect they are getting the lowest standard of workmanship from somebody who places no value on their abilities.
I understand that it is tough to get a start, but if you lower your standards this far, you are making life tougher for everybody else, including people coming along after you.
Many a journalist has received free training in return for pushing a perticular school. That in effect is a wage. Please don't continue past your training qualifications in this fashion.
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Gee, a double edged sword for us low timers.
Ask for the pay, even at a reasonable level, and likely someone else will get the position for less, or for free.
If I take a job that pays me 35,000/yr, I'll get chastized by those who "wouldn't take that job, I'm worth more than that" types with 7K hours, to whom the job isn't targeted to to begin with.
From my point of view that 35K job is slightly more than I make now, PLUS I'm now paid TO fly.
I'm not knocking your point Arraitch, it is valid. However "but in effect they are getting the lowest standard of workmanship from somebody" is something I take issue to, when I fly, I will fly to the best of my abilities, no matter what I make doing it. If the workmanship is substandard, it is due to being accepted for the job that is beyond my scope. See below.
Positions are open all over the place, and no one to fill them, this makes the operators lower the time requirements, and then people scream how badly it will become with lower time guys and gals doing that job, etc.
So AS, I believe your article has to be bent towards the operators out there. They will have to come up with an alternative for the gang like me who are up and coming. We are the ones who eventually will be filling those positions. No one has yet come up with any viable alternatives, my stance is a return to internships that payoff for operator and upcomng pilot alike.
Ask for the pay, even at a reasonable level, and likely someone else will get the position for less, or for free.
If I take a job that pays me 35,000/yr, I'll get chastized by those who "wouldn't take that job, I'm worth more than that" types with 7K hours, to whom the job isn't targeted to to begin with.
From my point of view that 35K job is slightly more than I make now, PLUS I'm now paid TO fly.
I'm not knocking your point Arraitch, it is valid. However "but in effect they are getting the lowest standard of workmanship from somebody" is something I take issue to, when I fly, I will fly to the best of my abilities, no matter what I make doing it. If the workmanship is substandard, it is due to being accepted for the job that is beyond my scope. See below.
Positions are open all over the place, and no one to fill them, this makes the operators lower the time requirements, and then people scream how badly it will become with lower time guys and gals doing that job, etc.
So AS, I believe your article has to be bent towards the operators out there. They will have to come up with an alternative for the gang like me who are up and coming. We are the ones who eventually will be filling those positions. No one has yet come up with any viable alternatives, my stance is a return to internships that payoff for operator and upcomng pilot alike.
Last edited by RW-1; 6th Sep 2002 at 17:06.
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AS, I too am one of those ultra low time CPL (H) who despite the 'professional qualification' will not be looked at by an AOC holder, unlike any other profession where once qualified, well you're qualified and therefore fit to practise! I'm fully aware of the insurance problems faced by AOC holders in respect of employing low time pilots but it is hard to believe that low timers are not being taken of advantage of to some degree. I beleive the bottom line is that since year dot most helo pilots have come from a military background and therefore civilian employers have become accustomed to having highly experienced pilots dropped into their lap for free. There are few (I can't think of (M)any) professions or trades where highly qualified and experienced individuals come to commercial companies for free but this is not within the experience of variation operators. Time will change that but the change will be instigated by acceptance from the employers rather than more pleading from the low timers. If that means employers have to charge customers more to cover the higher insurance costs then that's what they'll have to do. Provided that helo operators are all playing the same game then the increase in price will be industry wide and no one will be unduly effected.
So, in essence I agree with RW-1 that the question should be answered by the operators rather than the junior pilots. If there were any tried and tested methods for junior pilots to build hours we'd all know about them by now. I don't hear anyone shouting?
So, in essence I agree with RW-1 that the question should be answered by the operators rather than the junior pilots. If there were any tried and tested methods for junior pilots to build hours we'd all know about them by now. I don't hear anyone shouting?
One sure-fire method for hour building is to continue the money-pit approach.
Another is (or was, don't know if it still happens), like the place I learnt at in Sydney (PPL), for a new CPL to do the odd flying jobs to get to 200 hours, then you got onto the R44 and B206.
John Fraser did well that way, as did the other guys, but I don't know if it is guaranteed.
[Edit: I did my PPL there, saw the new CPL(H)s doing this, didn't do it myself].
Another is (or was, don't know if it still happens), like the place I learnt at in Sydney (PPL), for a new CPL to do the odd flying jobs to get to 200 hours, then you got onto the R44 and B206.
John Fraser did well that way, as did the other guys, but I don't know if it is guaranteed.
[Edit: I did my PPL there, saw the new CPL(H)s doing this, didn't do it myself].
Last edited by The Nr Fairy; 7th Sep 2002 at 09:57.
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Nr that's how most get their start here in the Great White North. You go to an operator, and do whatever you can to get the job. As a low-timer, it's your attitude that will get you hired, not your skill. Since most with 100 hrs (requirement here) have similar skill levels, there needs to be something that sets you apart from the next person. That something is your attitude. The operator wants to see what kind of person you are before he sets you lose with a 1/2 million $ piece of equipment. Can you put in a long day, do you get along with others, will you complain about the smallest thing, and can you plan your activities so that the important things get done.
One of the hardest things to do, is to get your first job. Keep at it, and keep a positive attitude. Good luck to all, we were all in your shoes once upon a time.
Cheers
Randy_G
One of the hardest things to do, is to get your first job. Keep at it, and keep a positive attitude. Good luck to all, we were all in your shoes once upon a time.
Cheers
Randy_G
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DO NOT fly for free!
Profesional Pilots, means you are get paid, not that you are trying to sustain a hobby.
I think the best way is to go to the Tuna boats, CFI, of better, go to operators who need copilots.
I got my first job as a copilot in Bell 212's doing offshore and powerline patrol with only 37.5 R22 hours and a fixed wing CPL (never flown in a piston since) and I didn't get it by looking into the internet or reading magazines, I got it by going to the airport everyday, meeting people, making lots of phone calls, being persistent, and being willing to move to where the opportunities are, if you live in a place where to be a helicopter pilot you need to work for free or almost, then you are maybe in the wrong place, or you selected the wrong profession for the time being.
Mis 2 centavos
I think the best way is to go to the Tuna boats, CFI, of better, go to operators who need copilots.
I got my first job as a copilot in Bell 212's doing offshore and powerline patrol with only 37.5 R22 hours and a fixed wing CPL (never flown in a piston since) and I didn't get it by looking into the internet or reading magazines, I got it by going to the airport everyday, meeting people, making lots of phone calls, being persistent, and being willing to move to where the opportunities are, if you live in a place where to be a helicopter pilot you need to work for free or almost, then you are maybe in the wrong place, or you selected the wrong profession for the time being.
Mis 2 centavos
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arraitch
well then i must be one of them people you dont like
i opoerate a helicopter for my buisness only and make journeys all over the uk i frequently allow pilots to fly as p1 accompanying me and i have never paid them
it seems that proffesional pilots like you now frown on this in the future i will use private pilots i fly 300 hrs per yr
what happens if one of these private pilots gets enough turbine time and gets a comercial licence and takes your job
well your call.
regards
well then i must be one of them people you dont like
i opoerate a helicopter for my buisness only and make journeys all over the uk i frequently allow pilots to fly as p1 accompanying me and i have never paid them
it seems that proffesional pilots like you now frown on this in the future i will use private pilots i fly 300 hrs per yr
what happens if one of these private pilots gets enough turbine time and gets a comercial licence and takes your job
well your call.
regards
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Why do I feel an urge to move closer to Tadcaster?
I have to admit during my training, one or two pilots of many hours did suggest if I got the chance, I might consider 'Cancelled cost' flights. As a PPL I obviously couldn't get paid as a pilot, however if the operator chose to charge me exactly what he would have paid me, then fair's fair. It may only be repositioning and generally less than an hour at a time, but it all helps.
I have to admit during my training, one or two pilots of many hours did suggest if I got the chance, I might consider 'Cancelled cost' flights. As a PPL I obviously couldn't get paid as a pilot, however if the operator chose to charge me exactly what he would have paid me, then fair's fair. It may only be repositioning and generally less than an hour at a time, but it all helps.
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Randy G is the closest here.
As for the "commercial pilot" stance even the regulations in most countries state "may operate an aircraft". There is no right, it is a privilege that you may exercise. An operator is within his rights to employ you on whatever basis he wishes, and that you concur with, inside any legal requirements regarding employment.
The sources for increasing flight experience are many and some have already been discussed.
The problem remains for operators that low time pilot's are expensive to buy and also sell. The issue here is that it is easier to get a start with an operator who has an easily sold product. Of course competition cuts both ways here. An operator who has differentiated himself to get a competitive advantage has also the problem of substantiating that advantage with pilots with the correct experience to his customers.
The "commercial pilot licence" is just a common denominator and is not really the issue.
I think a lot of pilot's with low time should have put more effort into trying to get a job i.e. know or speak to somebody who may have sympathy to their interests prior to commencing training or even get a position within a helicopter company to test the water prior to shelling out. In some cases if all goes well and you show aptitude and skills that the operator is interested in he may even pay for your training. This is from personal experience and I know of many others.
If you are up to the standards of an operator you will get a job. Read that carefully - it has many connotations.
AS - on the same issue - consider I may be an operator, tell me WHY you are training for a commercial pilot licence?
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As for the "commercial pilot" stance even the regulations in most countries state "may operate an aircraft". There is no right, it is a privilege that you may exercise. An operator is within his rights to employ you on whatever basis he wishes, and that you concur with, inside any legal requirements regarding employment.
The sources for increasing flight experience are many and some have already been discussed.
The problem remains for operators that low time pilot's are expensive to buy and also sell. The issue here is that it is easier to get a start with an operator who has an easily sold product. Of course competition cuts both ways here. An operator who has differentiated himself to get a competitive advantage has also the problem of substantiating that advantage with pilots with the correct experience to his customers.
The "commercial pilot licence" is just a common denominator and is not really the issue.
I think a lot of pilot's with low time should have put more effort into trying to get a job i.e. know or speak to somebody who may have sympathy to their interests prior to commencing training or even get a position within a helicopter company to test the water prior to shelling out. In some cases if all goes well and you show aptitude and skills that the operator is interested in he may even pay for your training. This is from personal experience and I know of many others.
If you are up to the standards of an operator you will get a job. Read that carefully - it has many connotations.
AS - on the same issue - consider I may be an operator, tell me WHY you are training for a commercial pilot licence?
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For MD 600 Driver:
No, you are not an employer - you are a kindly person who allows others to share your good fortune by getting some otherwise-unavailable stick time. You don't appear to be an AOC holder doing commercial work, and the low-timer (is he endorsed on type?) is not actually tasked to perform a job, just enjoy the ride.
The "employers" I was referring to are the mustering types who expect a queue of low-timers to be willing to be hangar slaves. There is one chopper, and only one pilot gets to fly it. He is not paid, and he is expected to sign up for the dole in the nearest town to get enough money to live. When this pilot gets some time up or is sufficiently disgruntled with the situation, he moves on and the next slave moves into his still-warm seat.
No, you are not an employer - you are a kindly person who allows others to share your good fortune by getting some otherwise-unavailable stick time. You don't appear to be an AOC holder doing commercial work, and the low-timer (is he endorsed on type?) is not actually tasked to perform a job, just enjoy the ride.
The "employers" I was referring to are the mustering types who expect a queue of low-timers to be willing to be hangar slaves. There is one chopper, and only one pilot gets to fly it. He is not paid, and he is expected to sign up for the dole in the nearest town to get enough money to live. When this pilot gets some time up or is sufficiently disgruntled with the situation, he moves on and the next slave moves into his still-warm seat.
Hour Building
Why not train with a school that offers a real prospect of work with them after qualification? All schools that I contacted told me that they would try to help in the search for work, but only Professional Helicopter Services offered the chance to work at their tourism operation in the Northern Territory. Not everyone gets the opportunity, but in the last 12 months, 5 newly qualified students have been given their first break in the industry flying B206/B206L and H500. If you are going to give A$45000 to someone it makes sense to give it someone who can offer a bit more than a licence with "pilot" written on it and their best wishes for the future. Do some research before you hand over your hard earned cash, and speak to those outside the training environment to find out about which schools are preferred by the bigger employers.
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and just quickly following the previous post, I did my instructors rating with a well known operator not far from Northampton and there was wording in their advert about job placement assistance etc etc.
As for MD600's post, I see nothing wrong in what he is doing as it isn't a commercial operation!! It's something which you don't see much of these days, especially in the helicopter industry...Something for nothing!!!
As for MD600's post, I see nothing wrong in what he is doing as it isn't a commercial operation!! It's something which you don't see much of these days, especially in the helicopter industry...Something for nothing!!!
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Arraitch
i guessed you did your licence the easy way (RAAF) you do not know how hard it is at all.
not very many operators will employ first time pilots strait up as has been said already, you can nearly count them on one hand.
and with 70 (dont know the exact number) pilots a month coming out of training schools across australia a month, how can they all get paid jobs?
as you can guess i slaved for a short time to get my foot in the door, in front of all of the ones that wanted pay. and so the fellas get to know you and you do a few jobs (and flights) here and there, now im a paid employee of the company.
i dont know about the mustering company your talking about but the ones i know will employ low time pilots WITH RINGER EXPERIENCE wich means, you guessed it, working on a station for a while. you dont need money while your on the station because they feed and house you anyway.
BLENDERPILOT you must be the luckiest pilot i know to get that job strait up
you said >I got it by going to the airport everyday, meeting people, making lots of phone calls, being persistent, and being willing to move to where the opportunities are.
it sounds like you did this all for free to me.
not very many operators will employ first time pilots strait up as has been said already, you can nearly count them on one hand.
and with 70 (dont know the exact number) pilots a month coming out of training schools across australia a month, how can they all get paid jobs?
as you can guess i slaved for a short time to get my foot in the door, in front of all of the ones that wanted pay. and so the fellas get to know you and you do a few jobs (and flights) here and there, now im a paid employee of the company.
i dont know about the mustering company your talking about but the ones i know will employ low time pilots WITH RINGER EXPERIENCE wich means, you guessed it, working on a station for a while. you dont need money while your on the station because they feed and house you anyway.
BLENDERPILOT you must be the luckiest pilot i know to get that job strait up
you said >I got it by going to the airport everyday, meeting people, making lots of phone calls, being persistent, and being willing to move to where the opportunities are.
it sounds like you did this all for free to me.
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vorticey
Well I don't know if I did it for free or not, but I recovered what I spent for my FAA - CPL's w/IFR/ME ratings within 18 months of getting them.
I have never believed in luck much, I think "making your own luck" is much better. Before I went for my CPL I did a lot of asking and made sure I was going to have a decent job in a professional environment, I analized the FACTS, and went for it.
I didn't just blindly go and spend a bunch of money in something with limited possibilities, with potential of being mistreated, no job security, and to make less money than a skilled truck driver like it happens in some countries.
If it doesn't make sense in your present environment to become a helicopter pilot because because of working conditions and opportunities, then go for something else, be a journalist, demolitions expert, pimp, who knows.
I have never believed in luck much, I think "making your own luck" is much better. Before I went for my CPL I did a lot of asking and made sure I was going to have a decent job in a professional environment, I analized the FACTS, and went for it.
I didn't just blindly go and spend a bunch of money in something with limited possibilities, with potential of being mistreated, no job security, and to make less money than a skilled truck driver like it happens in some countries.
If it doesn't make sense in your present environment to become a helicopter pilot because because of working conditions and opportunities, then go for something else, be a journalist, demolitions expert, pimp, who knows.
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Vorticey:
Nice wind-up about "doing it the esay way in the RAAF."
Were you referring to the pilot training being easy, or getting a job?
We could start a whole new thread on this one...
Nice wind-up about "doing it the esay way in the RAAF."
Were you referring to the pilot training being easy, or getting a job?
We could start a whole new thread on this one...
Arraitch, is Vorticey right? Are you ex military or by another means of training where you didn't pay your own cash to get it? How did you get your first job?
Sadly, I think it is a case of beggars can't be choosers. If you've paid $40K of your own hard earned money (like I did) and you passionately want to work as a pilot and climb the tree, you WILL do just about anything that helps your prospects initially. When people are hungry they do anything for food eh?
In a perfect world we all wish it were otherwise, but I see it more as an apprenticeship, where the REALITY is you do have to pay your dues at the start. Talk to any chippy, plumber, boiler maker etc and they will have a similar story I reckon about their beginnings and working for nothing.
For all you low time pilots getting your foot in the door, now is not the time to change the world and draw the moral high ground. That is a privelige of experience. Keep your chin up, your head level, set your own limits about what you will and won't do and work at it with enthusiasm. Dont give up and remember: it is possible to have integrity even if you know you may be getting shafted.
Good luck!
Sadly, I think it is a case of beggars can't be choosers. If you've paid $40K of your own hard earned money (like I did) and you passionately want to work as a pilot and climb the tree, you WILL do just about anything that helps your prospects initially. When people are hungry they do anything for food eh?
In a perfect world we all wish it were otherwise, but I see it more as an apprenticeship, where the REALITY is you do have to pay your dues at the start. Talk to any chippy, plumber, boiler maker etc and they will have a similar story I reckon about their beginnings and working for nothing.
For all you low time pilots getting your foot in the door, now is not the time to change the world and draw the moral high ground. That is a privelige of experience. Keep your chin up, your head level, set your own limits about what you will and won't do and work at it with enthusiasm. Dont give up and remember: it is possible to have integrity even if you know you may be getting shafted.
Good luck!
Last edited by the coyote; 10th Sep 2002 at 10:54.
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Arraitch
i was talking about not having to save the money or take time off work to do your licence, not having to look for your first job (which probably would involve some degree of grovelling). during your first years of being a chopper pilot, flying turbine aircraft with an instrument rating thown in and when your finished the "hard yards" step stait into somthing that you've been flying for a long time already.
these arnt actual facts, just a guess. you may be able to straighten some parts out a bit, but am i close?
these arnt actual facts, just a guess. you may be able to straighten some parts out a bit, but am i close?
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BlenderPilot
I'm impressed by any man that can get back CPL/ME/IFR in 18 months.
Fairly accurate figures for UK are
CPL - GBP 45K
IFR - GBP 30K+ (could easily be increased significantly)
ME - GBP 5K (bare minimum type rating costs)
I'm impressed by any man that can get back CPL/ME/IFR in 18 months.
Fairly accurate figures for UK are
CPL - GBP 45K
IFR - GBP 30K+ (could easily be increased significantly)
ME - GBP 5K (bare minimum type rating costs)
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ClearBlueWater
If I got it back in 18 months it was because it only cost me about 28,000 USD to get CPL/A IFR, ME plus 36.5 hrs. in an R22 which got me a CPL/H Add On to my license.
Having a CPL/H even with only 36.5 hrs. in helicopters, I was elegible to work as a copilot in PROTEXA (GOM/Mexican operator) on a Bell 212, needles to say when I got in the 212 for the first time, having only flown R22's, I WAS ABSOLUTELY IMPRESSED BY THE SIZE, THE NOISE, I COULDN'T BELIVE THE SIZE OF THE BLADES! I remember they wanted to see if I could't at least hover the thing, keep it straight and level, so "yeyo" said once we were airborne . . . . "you've got the controls" When we landed I was soo tense, I was sweating, and I couldn't fold my knees from being soo tense.
Having a CPL/H even with only 36.5 hrs. in helicopters, I was elegible to work as a copilot in PROTEXA (GOM/Mexican operator) on a Bell 212, needles to say when I got in the 212 for the first time, having only flown R22's, I WAS ABSOLUTELY IMPRESSED BY THE SIZE, THE NOISE, I COULDN'T BELIVE THE SIZE OF THE BLADES! I remember they wanted to see if I could't at least hover the thing, keep it straight and level, so "yeyo" said once we were airborne . . . . "you've got the controls" When we landed I was soo tense, I was sweating, and I couldn't fold my knees from being soo tense.
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As I see it, if the company has an AOC and is getting paid for the flight, then you as an employee must be paid appropriately.
There are many jobs in our industry where you operate from a camp where the customer feeds, and houses you. Does that mean that you should be paid less because of it ?? Last time I checked the mortgage, (or rent) still has to be paid. The bank might also like you to pay back the loan you took out to get into this glamorous occupation.
MD600 it's too bad there weren't more people around who will help the inexperienced. Good on ya !!
Cheers
Randy_G
There are many jobs in our industry where you operate from a camp where the customer feeds, and houses you. Does that mean that you should be paid less because of it ?? Last time I checked the mortgage, (or rent) still has to be paid. The bank might also like you to pay back the loan you took out to get into this glamorous occupation.
MD600 it's too bad there weren't more people around who will help the inexperienced. Good on ya !!
Cheers
Randy_G