Hours building: Questions, Ideas, Advice, Countries etc
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
co-pilot job....
The real point of this thread is "Where can you get a co-pilot job with 500 hs!?!"
No, seriously, where?Time is time. You don't have to be flying NOE for it to be "real" time. I think the only legal issue is whether the person flying is a licensed commercial pilot. If so the occupant of the other seat can be the owner's Jack Russel because then it's just an insurance issue. Besides the dog probably has the TT and time in type to meet the insur. requirements.
I'm always amused at low-timers who ask silly question like, "Are my 376 hours of flight instructing better than 244.3 hours of flying left-seat in a traffic-watch 206?"
Look people, flight time is flight time. When I hire a pilot, the FIRST thing I look for is: Is this person comfortable and "at home" at the controls? Even if he's never been in a 206 before, a helicopter is a helicopter so he/she shouldn't look too lost. Will he be able to adapt without constantly whining, "That's not how we do it in the R-22." If he claims to have 206 time, does he even know where the Battery switch is? Can he explain how the various systems work? Can he explain how a turbine is different from a piston?
Nobody expects low-timers to fly like Yeager or even like me (although the difference is so slight as to be unnoticeable). But I do expect that a pilot applying for a commercial position should be able to find his way around a traffic pattern without too much drama or angst no matter what ship he's in. You just fly as if you're totally in command - like you know what you're doing (fake it if you have to), and I'll teach you the intricacies of the particular aircraft.
Look people, flight time is flight time. When I hire a pilot, the FIRST thing I look for is: Is this person comfortable and "at home" at the controls? Even if he's never been in a 206 before, a helicopter is a helicopter so he/she shouldn't look too lost. Will he be able to adapt without constantly whining, "That's not how we do it in the R-22." If he claims to have 206 time, does he even know where the Battery switch is? Can he explain how the various systems work? Can he explain how a turbine is different from a piston?
Nobody expects low-timers to fly like Yeager or even like me (although the difference is so slight as to be unnoticeable). But I do expect that a pilot applying for a commercial position should be able to find his way around a traffic pattern without too much drama or angst no matter what ship he's in. You just fly as if you're totally in command - like you know what you're doing (fake it if you have to), and I'll teach you the intricacies of the particular aircraft.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hartford, CT USA
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has anybody here actually flown with either of these guys to get the turbine time? I am just wondering how it works, does he just explain everything to you and you go fly? Or, is it more like, he takes care of everything and all you need to do is fly while he is taking pictures, or giving the radio report? Im just looking to get a better idea of what kind of flying is done here.
I wrote: I'm always amused at low-timers who ask silly question like, "Are my 376 hours of flight instructing better than 244.3 hours of flying left-seat in a traffic-watch 206?"
Quindici shot back:I'm sorry, did I ask that? How many times have you been asked that, incidentally?Jeez, don't be so testy, Robbieboi. I was merely pointing out that the question has been asked, and for the most part it is moot. It matters not...to me, anyway. If you're not flying right-seat in a 206...if you're not starting it up and shutting it down, then you're *not* getting 206/turbine time.
Quindici shot back:I'm sorry, did I ask that? How many times have you been asked that, incidentally?Jeez, don't be so testy, Robbieboi. I was merely pointing out that the question has been asked, and for the most part it is moot. It matters not...to me, anyway. If you're not flying right-seat in a 206...if you're not starting it up and shutting it down, then you're *not* getting 206/turbine time.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whenever hours building with one of the LA traffic watch operators comes up, someone always says the CAA won't allow you to count those hours for the purpose of satisfying minimum hours requirements - obtaining a professional licence etc.
Both places have been offering hours-building for years, both are well-known and both often have UK pilots. The CAA must know about them, must know the regs of the Jetrangers and/or if they see a block of LA flying from Van Nuys or Fullerton, 3 hours every morning and 2 hours every evening at almost exactly the same times every day, they must realise it's traffic watch time. So, if the CAA takes this approach, there should be quite a few people around who can confirm it.
Where are they? I've never met anyone who's had this happen to them. The CAA is criticised for many things, often with justification, but I wonder if this one's true or just an urban myth.
Does anyone know a pilot who's had his/her traffic watch hours rejected by the CAA?
NB: I mean know.
Not 'I heard from someone who heard from someone else who had a cousin whose friend I didn't actually talk to myself, said .........'
Not 'One of the instructors at my school told me the CAA won't count the hours.'
BTW, I wouldn't recommend asking the CAA, or drawing their attention to traffic watch hours if you have them. It may be a grey area to which they sensibly turn a blind eye - they can't do that if they're forced to give a 'yes' or 'no' answer.
Both places have been offering hours-building for years, both are well-known and both often have UK pilots. The CAA must know about them, must know the regs of the Jetrangers and/or if they see a block of LA flying from Van Nuys or Fullerton, 3 hours every morning and 2 hours every evening at almost exactly the same times every day, they must realise it's traffic watch time. So, if the CAA takes this approach, there should be quite a few people around who can confirm it.
Where are they? I've never met anyone who's had this happen to them. The CAA is criticised for many things, often with justification, but I wonder if this one's true or just an urban myth.
Does anyone know a pilot who's had his/her traffic watch hours rejected by the CAA?
NB: I mean know.
Not 'I heard from someone who heard from someone else who had a cousin whose friend I didn't actually talk to myself, said .........'
Not 'One of the instructors at my school told me the CAA won't count the hours.'
BTW, I wouldn't recommend asking the CAA, or drawing their attention to traffic watch hours if you have them. It may be a grey area to which they sensibly turn a blind eye - they can't do that if they're forced to give a 'yes' or 'no' answer.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 10th Mar 2004 at 02:32.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did a week of Traffic Watch in Van Nuys, and the B206 conversion there. The CAA accepted the hours - only 25 hours anyway - and I got the impression there was only a problem with that if you had hundreds of hours of Traffic Watch, but I don't actually know. I did all the flying, but not the start-up and shutdown generally , though I was taught to do it. When there wasn't too much to do, we went off and did circuits and confined area approaches and other stuff like that. It was good, it was cheap, it was lots of fun, I learned a lot. But to some extent you get what you pay for, and I'm not convinced it was as good as a "traditional" turbine conversion. But I couldn't afford that, and never kept up my B206 flying anyway, for that reason.
Quindici:
Quite right! My point was exactly that. Left seat/right seat...flight time is flight time. What I was pointing out was that if the traffic watch pilot does not let you sit in the right seat, do the start, shut it down, pull the rotor brake, flip the switches...all that stuff, then you might as well be flying anything else- it really has no significance that you're in a 206.
Furthermore, while the experience of driving around the L.A. basin is valuable in and of itself, you probably won't be doing high-GW/confined-area stuff, or pinnacle landings, or autos...so you better come to me SUPER-SHARP on Class B ops, radio procedures (monitoring more than one at a time), knowing how/where to look for traffic (the airborne kind), etc. I've flown with helicopter pilots who seemed to have very little awareness of fixed-wing patterns and habits.
Let me also point out that flying straight and level in a JR will tell you absolutely zilch about how it hovers (unless the pilot lets you do some hover work before and after each flight - which I doubt if the ship is stored on a dolly or platform). And believe me, there are those of us who can tell in an instant whether the applicant (supplicant?) next to us has ever picked up and hovered a 206 before.
So how valuable is this flight time? As I said, it depends on the individual. It depends on what YOU make of it. If a pilot came to me with such experience I would not be prejudiced against him, but I would expect a lot...a LOT. In fact, at the end of the day that experience might work against him, because if someone claimed to have X-amount of 206 time, I would be disinclined to accept the excuse, "I wasn't allowed to do that."
See what I mean?
As for flying from the left or the right seat, surely someone that takes as pragmatic-a-view as you claimed to in the earlier post would not see a difference between being sole manipulator of the controls from the left seat or from the right seat? Quality of the flying is equal.
Furthermore, while the experience of driving around the L.A. basin is valuable in and of itself, you probably won't be doing high-GW/confined-area stuff, or pinnacle landings, or autos...so you better come to me SUPER-SHARP on Class B ops, radio procedures (monitoring more than one at a time), knowing how/where to look for traffic (the airborne kind), etc. I've flown with helicopter pilots who seemed to have very little awareness of fixed-wing patterns and habits.
Let me also point out that flying straight and level in a JR will tell you absolutely zilch about how it hovers (unless the pilot lets you do some hover work before and after each flight - which I doubt if the ship is stored on a dolly or platform). And believe me, there are those of us who can tell in an instant whether the applicant (supplicant?) next to us has ever picked up and hovered a 206 before.
So how valuable is this flight time? As I said, it depends on the individual. It depends on what YOU make of it. If a pilot came to me with such experience I would not be prejudiced against him, but I would expect a lot...a LOT. In fact, at the end of the day that experience might work against him, because if someone claimed to have X-amount of 206 time, I would be disinclined to accept the excuse, "I wasn't allowed to do that."
See what I mean?
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Canada/around
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In this case, I agree with PF#1.
If the interviewee has the skills and confidence, the hours are a confirmation of where he obtained this ability. If the ability/skills are lacking despite the logbook entries, then warning flags fly.
I would also ask how the hours are being logged. If the 'CFI' is logging P1 and its a jetranger, are you trying to log P2 or dual?? Under Canadian rules it would be difficult to log other than dual.
If the interviewee has the skills and confidence, the hours are a confirmation of where he obtained this ability. If the ability/skills are lacking despite the logbook entries, then warning flags fly.
I would also ask how the hours are being logged. If the 'CFI' is logging P1 and its a jetranger, are you trying to log P2 or dual?? Under Canadian rules it would be difficult to log other than dual.
quindici:
I take a slightly different view, based on my own experience. I'd take the person I knew best and whose capabilities I knew and understood over a walk-in unless that person had substantialy more experience.
Why do I say that ? If you hour build at one place, and do the right things, and show willing, and show them you're the right stuff, they may let you fly ferry flights, and eventually offer pleasure flying work - "to start withand see how you go". If you do non-flying work for another company, and are in the right place at the right time, you may be offered work flying their new helicopter on pleasure flights.
My advice - get the 500 hours, with a mix of traffic flying, solo x-c, dual and solo high altitude at high AUW, and anything else a bit different. Putting one big tick in one box is good, putting lots of smaller ticks in lots of other boxes even better.
I take a slightly different view, based on my own experience. I'd take the person I knew best and whose capabilities I knew and understood over a walk-in unless that person had substantialy more experience.
Why do I say that ? If you hour build at one place, and do the right things, and show willing, and show them you're the right stuff, they may let you fly ferry flights, and eventually offer pleasure flying work - "to start withand see how you go". If you do non-flying work for another company, and are in the right place at the right time, you may be offered work flying their new helicopter on pleasure flights.
My advice - get the 500 hours, with a mix of traffic flying, solo x-c, dual and solo high altitude at high AUW, and anything else a bit different. Putting one big tick in one box is good, putting lots of smaller ticks in lots of other boxes even better.
Quindici, I was thinking about this as I was driving home from work today. You did ask about pursuing a job as a co-jo, and we didn't really address it from that angle. I guess the "problem" with helicopter aviation is that there are so few copilot slots open that we really don't have any experience applying for them or hiring people to fill them.
But let me offer my best guess: It won't matter. In this business, too much depends on the individual. You could have 500 hours of mostly traffic watch and the other guy could have 500 hours in R-22's. You and your competitor are the same age and have exactly the same ratings and other quals (e.g. college or whatever). Who's going to get hired? It's likely a toss-up. It'll come down to who gives the best interview. Or who presents himself the best. Or how the Chief Pilot feels that day.
From the low-timer's POV, 500 hours is a lot. But from *our* POV, that amount of time is nothing. At that stage, you're all about equal in our eyes, no offense intended. Seriously, it would come down to personalities. Which one do I feel would stay with us longer? Which one is more trainable? Which one will get along with our PIC's the best?
(Here's a dirty little secret about our industry: When it comes right down to it, even PIC's are hired this way, sometimes despite the fact that there's someone more qualified for the job. If I don't think I'm going to get along with you, you could be Orville Wright and I'd send you back to repairing bicycles.)
For a job like this, it's *probably* not about the type of flight time you have. So I'll give you this free gem of interview advice: Whichever way you decide to go, be charming.
But let me offer my best guess: It won't matter. In this business, too much depends on the individual. You could have 500 hours of mostly traffic watch and the other guy could have 500 hours in R-22's. You and your competitor are the same age and have exactly the same ratings and other quals (e.g. college or whatever). Who's going to get hired? It's likely a toss-up. It'll come down to who gives the best interview. Or who presents himself the best. Or how the Chief Pilot feels that day.
From the low-timer's POV, 500 hours is a lot. But from *our* POV, that amount of time is nothing. At that stage, you're all about equal in our eyes, no offense intended. Seriously, it would come down to personalities. Which one do I feel would stay with us longer? Which one is more trainable? Which one will get along with our PIC's the best?
(Here's a dirty little secret about our industry: When it comes right down to it, even PIC's are hired this way, sometimes despite the fact that there's someone more qualified for the job. If I don't think I'm going to get along with you, you could be Orville Wright and I'd send you back to repairing bicycles.)
For a job like this, it's *probably* not about the type of flight time you have. So I'll give you this free gem of interview advice: Whichever way you decide to go, be charming.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: by the seaside
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Only thing I can add is that if you have 500 hours it would be nice to see you have been employed before.
So in my opinion 500 hours total with 250 R22 instructing hours against 250 all paid for doing trafficwatch I'd employ the R22 guy as he shows an employment history.
So in my opinion 500 hours total with 250 R22 instructing hours against 250 all paid for doing trafficwatch I'd employ the R22 guy as he shows an employment history.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To stick in my twopennorth - and I'm not being humble, just realistic - I think I've learned more overall from the miniscule bit of instructing I've done than from the miniscule bit of Traffic Watch I did.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ireland
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMOH the flight instructing is by far the best. Can never figure out why its slagged off... if you read the article in the back page of R. and W. this month you will see Tim McAdams address this sort of stuff.
Yes, any time is better than no time but operating at the limit of the aircraft, making command decisions and building your instincts is of tremendous value. Your handling skills will improve ten fold even if youre not on the controls much. And dont forget that you will be doing those same moanouvers once every six months for the rest of your life so having a good grounding in autos etc is a big help... afterall a SE run on landing in a 412 is exactly the same as the running landings you used to do in the R22. Poleing a 206 in ENG... (which doesnt need to be hugely accurate flying), with someone else making the decisions is better than nothing but hardly of tremendous value.
Yes, any time is better than no time but operating at the limit of the aircraft, making command decisions and building your instincts is of tremendous value. Your handling skills will improve ten fold even if youre not on the controls much. And dont forget that you will be doing those same moanouvers once every six months for the rest of your life so having a good grounding in autos etc is a big help... afterall a SE run on landing in a 412 is exactly the same as the running landings you used to do in the R22. Poleing a 206 in ENG... (which doesnt need to be hugely accurate flying), with someone else making the decisions is better than nothing but hardly of tremendous value.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you sure you have to book Chuck Street through Group3?
Maybe things have changed, but I've seen posts by people who've booked direct.
Website: Commander Chuck
E-mail: [email protected]
BTW, I don't think he's an instructor, although by all accounts he's a very experienced B206 pilot, a good teacher and will teach if the pilot wants that. I'm not sure it matters if he's an instructor for hours-building purposes. The FAA don't have type ratings and you'll be flying on an FAA ticket in American airspace.
If you need a JAA/CAA type rating at home, you'll need to do a conversion - but that should be a doddle after a week flying the B206.
You say the cost of self-fly is much the same.
Do you mean by cost sharing? Or have you found somewhere you can SFH a B206 for $135 per hour. If the latter, I think people needing turbine time would be very keen to know where it is!
Maybe things have changed, but I've seen posts by people who've booked direct.
Website: Commander Chuck
E-mail: [email protected]
BTW, I don't think he's an instructor, although by all accounts he's a very experienced B206 pilot, a good teacher and will teach if the pilot wants that. I'm not sure it matters if he's an instructor for hours-building purposes. The FAA don't have type ratings and you'll be flying on an FAA ticket in American airspace.
If you need a JAA/CAA type rating at home, you'll need to do a conversion - but that should be a doddle after a week flying the B206.
You say the cost of self-fly is much the same.
Do you mean by cost sharing? Or have you found somewhere you can SFH a B206 for $135 per hour. If the latter, I think people needing turbine time would be very keen to know where it is!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
..... if you both plan to log the time one of you would have to be a CFI.
Both logging the time isn't the issue. If you do the flying, you're entitled to log the time. Insurance/contract with the radio station don't affect that.
Insurance and legality would depend on the insurance policy and the terms of the contract with the radio station.
Is it a commercial or private flight? eg Is the operator being paid to fly the helicopter or to provide traffic reports by whatever means he chooses?
Both logging the time isn't the issue. If you do the flying, you're entitled to log the time. Insurance/contract with the radio station don't affect that.
Insurance and legality would depend on the insurance policy and the terms of the contract with the radio station.
Is it a commercial or private flight? eg Is the operator being paid to fly the helicopter or to provide traffic reports by whatever means he chooses?
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: by the seaside
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
quindici
In my opinion any commercial experience, including flight instruction, would be more benefical than flying trafficwatch for more than 5-10% of your 500 hours total.
As a flight instructor you won't just do instruction as photo flights or tourist flights will form a part of your weekly work. As the NR Fairy said it is very important to show a broad spectrum of flight experience in your 'limited' flight time.
You say your intention is to gain 500 hours and gain work as a co-pilot. But if this hole disappears what is your intention then?? Have you a plan 'B'.
I don't believe that a previous life as an accountant or anything else shows that you would make an excellent co-pilot. CHC Scotia failures during training are testamount to the difficulties of finding the correct people.
So IF I was looking for a new hire with about 500 hours I would be looking for a little more than someone that had purchased their flight time doing trafficwatch.
Have you considered tuna spotting work??? Or is your goal to be a co-pilot in the North Sea??
With a civilian background myself, I do feel that flight instruction started me in the right direction so I maybe biased in my reply.
In my opinion any commercial experience, including flight instruction, would be more benefical than flying trafficwatch for more than 5-10% of your 500 hours total.
As a flight instructor you won't just do instruction as photo flights or tourist flights will form a part of your weekly work. As the NR Fairy said it is very important to show a broad spectrum of flight experience in your 'limited' flight time.
You say your intention is to gain 500 hours and gain work as a co-pilot. But if this hole disappears what is your intention then?? Have you a plan 'B'.
I don't believe that a previous life as an accountant or anything else shows that you would make an excellent co-pilot. CHC Scotia failures during training are testamount to the difficulties of finding the correct people.
So IF I was looking for a new hire with about 500 hours I would be looking for a little more than someone that had purchased their flight time doing trafficwatch.
Have you considered tuna spotting work??? Or is your goal to be a co-pilot in the North Sea??
With a civilian background myself, I do feel that flight instruction started me in the right direction so I maybe biased in my reply.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
By coincidence, this article is in today's New York Times.
Skybound Los Angeles Traffic Reporter Sees Job as a Dying Art
LOS ANGELES, March 12 - The first voice many Los Angeles commuters hear in the morning, when the clock radio bleats at 6, is that of Cmdr. Chuck Street, talking about traffic. He knows this, and so tries to put the good before the bad, to set a meditative mood with a poetic description of the rain, say, before launching into the annoyances or horrors of the day.
How about this for ingenuity in getting a job?
Link to full story in the New York Times
I spent a week with Chuck in 1997. For a PPL, it was a fantastic experience and, although I'm not qualified to judge, for what it's worth, I suspect 20-25 hours might be useful for a new CPL or someone hours building for a CPL.
If the pilot's interested, it's not just straight and level. In our breaks, we practised pinnacle landings, confined areas and roof-top helipad ops.
Useful experience, extremely enjoyable and very cheap 206 flying. Recommended.
Skybound Los Angeles Traffic Reporter Sees Job as a Dying Art
LOS ANGELES, March 12 - The first voice many Los Angeles commuters hear in the morning, when the clock radio bleats at 6, is that of Cmdr. Chuck Street, talking about traffic. He knows this, and so tries to put the good before the bad, to set a meditative mood with a poetic description of the rain, say, before launching into the annoyances or horrors of the day.
How about this for ingenuity in getting a job?
Chuck Street began his career in 1983. A helicopter pilot by hobby, he was down on his financial luck then. The rent was in arrears; the repossession man was nipping at his heels. Desperate, Mr. Street and a bare-chested woman hovered in a helicopter outside the 19th floor window of Rick Dees, the disc jockey. It paid off. Impressed with the derring-do of Chuck Street and the genetics of his female companion, Mr. Dees hired him a month later as a traffic pilot and reporter.
I spent a week with Chuck in 1997. For a PPL, it was a fantastic experience and, although I'm not qualified to judge, for what it's worth, I suspect 20-25 hours might be useful for a new CPL or someone hours building for a CPL.
If the pilot's interested, it's not just straight and level. In our breaks, we practised pinnacle landings, confined areas and roof-top helipad ops.
Useful experience, extremely enjoyable and very cheap 206 flying. Recommended.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 14th Mar 2004 at 10:47.