Hours building: Questions, Ideas, Advice, Countries etc
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[email protected]
is the traffic watch out of fullerton
$135.00 per hour
he says the time is P1 but also haven't got round to asking CAA
is the traffic watch out of fullerton
$135.00 per hour
he says the time is P1 but also haven't got round to asking CAA
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LA Traffic Watch B206 and hour building.
As some of you know, I'm off to LA in April to do some flying. I've arranged to do the B206 conversion and some flying with the chap who does Traffic Watch (Chuck someone-or-other) who Flying Lawyer and others have flown with. What I need to know is what the CAA says about hours gained that way. I need another 95.6 hours before I can do an instructors course in the UK. They don't necessarily have to be PIC; I have nearly enough of those anyway. I've asked around, and heard everything from "The CAA aren't going to know are they?" to "You can't log them as P1" to "The CAA probably know the registration of that helicopter by now, so will they allow them at all?".
I'm not desperately worried, as it's a cheap way to learn to fly a B206 anyway, and sounds like lots of fun. But since I do need the hours, does anyone know what the situation is. I don't want to ask the CAA directly, as I'm not sure I should draw their attention to a situation they just possibly don't know about. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
By the way, if anyone fancies meeting up when I'm over there, e-mail me.
I'm not desperately worried, as it's a cheap way to learn to fly a B206 anyway, and sounds like lots of fun. But since I do need the hours, does anyone know what the situation is. I don't want to ask the CAA directly, as I'm not sure I should draw their attention to a situation they just possibly don't know about. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
By the way, if anyone fancies meeting up when I'm over there, e-mail me.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hi Whirly
I spoke directly to FCL (Mike) and was told that it wasn't a problem. I actually need the PIC time, and Mike said that as long as it's an ICAO member and your designated as PIC then it counts. I am writing to the CAA to request this in writing as there has been lots of talk about limiting this kind of activity. As your not carrying PAX for reward or getting paid, then surely you can be PIC after your 206 check ride, on the FAA PPL-H that you get free from the FSDO on the strength of your CPL-H
I spoke directly to FCL (Mike) and was told that it wasn't a problem. I actually need the PIC time, and Mike said that as long as it's an ICAO member and your designated as PIC then it counts. I am writing to the CAA to request this in writing as there has been lots of talk about limiting this kind of activity. As your not carrying PAX for reward or getting paid, then surely you can be PIC after your 206 check ride, on the FAA PPL-H that you get free from the FSDO on the strength of your CPL-H
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
advancing blade,
Thanks for that. If you get it in writing from the CAA, any chance you could send me a copy, just in case I need it. If you e-mail me, I'll send you my snail mail address.
Thanks for that. If you get it in writing from the CAA, any chance you could send me a copy, just in case I need it. If you e-mail me, I'll send you my snail mail address.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: by the seaside
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Two little points to think about here.
1) You fly from the left seat, not the right.
2) Chuck doesn't have a CFI licence.
Well that is how it used to be!!!
Also you will need to be 206 type rated on your UK licence in order to even consider logging it. (unless you have a full US licence which isn't type specific)
The folk story is many years old and as I heard it the CAA refused to allow hours in the US logged during traffic reporting due to flying left seat and that two pilots can't log PIC. Chuck was logging it but didn't have a CFI licence and he was in the right seat so as soon as he logged you couldn't.
Things to think about: The people that made this rule could have left the CAA.
He that holds the controls should be P1 whatever anyone says regardless of which side they sit..... But the CAA might think differently.
I have no hard facts and know many Europeans that have done it. All have had no problems with the CAA or employers but don't do too many hours as then it will get questioned.
1) You fly from the left seat, not the right.
2) Chuck doesn't have a CFI licence.
Well that is how it used to be!!!
Also you will need to be 206 type rated on your UK licence in order to even consider logging it. (unless you have a full US licence which isn't type specific)
The folk story is many years old and as I heard it the CAA refused to allow hours in the US logged during traffic reporting due to flying left seat and that two pilots can't log PIC. Chuck was logging it but didn't have a CFI licence and he was in the right seat so as soon as he logged you couldn't.
Things to think about: The people that made this rule could have left the CAA.
He that holds the controls should be P1 whatever anyone says regardless of which side they sit..... But the CAA might think differently.
I have no hard facts and know many Europeans that have done it. All have had no problems with the CAA or employers but don't do too many hours as then it will get questioned.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any problems logging P1 time in LA B206?
I've been through all of Whirlybird's and others threads about flying with Chuck and Phillipe on the 206 News copter / tourist helicopter hours building program in LA. Seems like great experience and fun (thanks for the info Whirly and Flying Lawyer). I'm already in the U.S. so thinking about going for it myself.
However, the issue over whether or not there'd be problems logging the time as P1 is a concern as I'm aiming to do 100+hrs so I will definitely want them to count - anyone had a problem with this or got a definitive answer / piece of paper from the CAA saying it's ok?
I've (almost) got a JAA CPL(H) (and FAA PPLH) with 206 type rating and did 40hrs dual in the 206 for my CPL, including the GFT so they'd be just hoursbuilding, not part of my CPL hours.
If there are problems, do you think just converting to an FAA CPL(H) first would solve them?
Someone (seniorish) from the CAA SRG group is out moderating our exams next week as we're the first batch of Heli ATP exam takers so I'll see what he has to say and will let you know...
Cheers
However, the issue over whether or not there'd be problems logging the time as P1 is a concern as I'm aiming to do 100+hrs so I will definitely want them to count - anyone had a problem with this or got a definitive answer / piece of paper from the CAA saying it's ok?
I've (almost) got a JAA CPL(H) (and FAA PPLH) with 206 type rating and did 40hrs dual in the 206 for my CPL, including the GFT so they'd be just hoursbuilding, not part of my CPL hours.
If there are problems, do you think just converting to an FAA CPL(H) first would solve them?
Someone (seniorish) from the CAA SRG group is out moderating our exams next week as we're the first batch of Heli ATP exam takers so I'll see what he has to say and will let you know...
Cheers
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: by the seaside
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a grey area which has never had a definitive answer, only rumour and could possibly be better left that way and not bothering a CAA offical over. Hate for them to make a negative ruling!!!
The problem in the past stemed from guys doing the flying without a type rating and then claiming it as P1.
Under US regulations, either PPL or CPL a type isn't required but CAA/JAA does require one.
In your situation you have a JAA type rating for a 206 and a US PPL(H), plus will fly the aircraft with controls in YOUR hands, so you can log it as P1 on either licence, regardless of which seat you sit in.
Can't personally see the point in doing over 100 hours though, as on your return to the UK it is fairly well known that this is little more than an hour builder and won't put you in any superior position in a job hunt than someone with a bare CPL(H). Can't exactly put 'employer' LA trafficwatch on your resume to cover the hours!!!
In my humble opinion your money would be better spent on hunting for your first position.
The problem in the past stemed from guys doing the flying without a type rating and then claiming it as P1.
Under US regulations, either PPL or CPL a type isn't required but CAA/JAA does require one.
In your situation you have a JAA type rating for a 206 and a US PPL(H), plus will fly the aircraft with controls in YOUR hands, so you can log it as P1 on either licence, regardless of which seat you sit in.
Can't personally see the point in doing over 100 hours though, as on your return to the UK it is fairly well known that this is little more than an hour builder and won't put you in any superior position in a job hunt than someone with a bare CPL(H). Can't exactly put 'employer' LA trafficwatch on your resume to cover the hours!!!
In my humble opinion your money would be better spent on hunting for your first position.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As far as the UK CAA acceptance of these hours is concerned I know of lots of people who have done the flying, logged the time as P1 and the CAA have not pulled them up for it. I have heard second hand of people who have been pulled up for it and whose logged P1 time has been disallowed.
Pre JAR FCL, CAP 53 and 54 had a page that set out (fairly) clearly what you could count. At that stage one of the key features (as far as the CAA were conerned) was that only one pilot could claim P1 for a flight. I believe that under other "rulemakers" a number of pilots can claim P1 for a flight.
I wouldn't recommend asking the CAA directly cos you know what answer you will get - the one that makes it more expensive for you!
Pre JAR FCL, CAP 53 and 54 had a page that set out (fairly) clearly what you could count. At that stage one of the key features (as far as the CAA were conerned) was that only one pilot could claim P1 for a flight. I believe that under other "rulemakers" a number of pilots can claim P1 for a flight.
I wouldn't recommend asking the CAA directly cos you know what answer you will get - the one that makes it more expensive for you!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Rotorbike,
That need to be type rated in a Bell 206 before you can log PIC time is another distinction between the US and "East Atlantic" thinking.
In the US, an FAA type rating Board determines if the helicopter has strange enough characteristics to warrant requiring a separate type rating. Only if the aircraft is above 12,500 pounds GW is one absolutely established. I know of no helo below 12,500 pounds that requires a type rating.
For Private and Commercial pilots, they can move between virtually all helicopters below 12,500 pounds without a formal Type rating. Only insurance regulations require a check-out by an IP, there is no FAA compulsion to do so, and the check-out is not applied to your pilot's certificate, it is meerly logged.
The exception is those who fly PT 135 and PT 127, where their Ops Manuals always require a type check, and thus a type rating.
That need to be type rated in a Bell 206 before you can log PIC time is another distinction between the US and "East Atlantic" thinking.
In the US, an FAA type rating Board determines if the helicopter has strange enough characteristics to warrant requiring a separate type rating. Only if the aircraft is above 12,500 pounds GW is one absolutely established. I know of no helo below 12,500 pounds that requires a type rating.
For Private and Commercial pilots, they can move between virtually all helicopters below 12,500 pounds without a formal Type rating. Only insurance regulations require a check-out by an IP, there is no FAA compulsion to do so, and the check-out is not applied to your pilot's certificate, it is meerly logged.
The exception is those who fly PT 135 and PT 127, where their Ops Manuals always require a type check, and thus a type rating.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rotorbike,
Thanks - I need another 100 hours before I could go on the FI course anyway (300 total), it's also cheaper than renting an R22 ($120/hour compared to $165/hour).
I'm getting the impression the hours are not seen as pucker (geniune) in some way, even by prospective employers. I would have thought this would be more valuable experience than hopping in an R22 for 100 hours doing the $200 hamburger? Is that not so..?
Thanks - I need another 100 hours before I could go on the FI course anyway (300 total), it's also cheaper than renting an R22 ($120/hour compared to $165/hour).
I'm getting the impression the hours are not seen as pucker (geniune) in some way, even by prospective employers. I would have thought this would be more valuable experience than hopping in an R22 for 100 hours doing the $200 hamburger? Is that not so..?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
buttline,
I think how people view hours flown depends upon what work you are wanting to do.
Almost all my hours building towards my FI rating was in a R22, but I was going to instruct on the R22 and do my FI course on it too. It therefore made sense that the majority of my time was R22 time. As I recall, I found the FI course and early instruction very stretching and needed all the R22 experience I could get.
If you are to start instructing have as much time as you can get on what you are to instruct on.
I think how people view hours flown depends upon what work you are wanting to do.
Almost all my hours building towards my FI rating was in a R22, but I was going to instruct on the R22 and do my FI course on it too. It therefore made sense that the majority of my time was R22 time. As I recall, I found the FI course and early instruction very stretching and needed all the R22 experience I could get.
If you are to start instructing have as much time as you can get on what you are to instruct on.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Sunrise, Fl. U.S.A.
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rotorbike,
To add to Nick's answer on US stuff, while I could gain all the time I wanted with Capt Street, etc. and claim those hours, it would basically be meaningless (IMO) unless it consisted of my doing the starts/shutdowns/emerg procedures, etc. It's great to log the Turbine time, but everyone out there would know it was just that, flying it. Yes, it builds hours, but that's all.
(I'll allow that I don't know what he will allow you to do etc. But stand by my assertion of what is important about the time logged)
I would say that to me, if I were to do that, I'd get that time in the air, then get the factory school out of the way too.
To add to Nick's answer on US stuff, while I could gain all the time I wanted with Capt Street, etc. and claim those hours, it would basically be meaningless (IMO) unless it consisted of my doing the starts/shutdowns/emerg procedures, etc. It's great to log the Turbine time, but everyone out there would know it was just that, flying it. Yes, it builds hours, but that's all.
(I'll allow that I don't know what he will allow you to do etc. But stand by my assertion of what is important about the time logged)
I would say that to me, if I were to do that, I'd get that time in the air, then get the factory school out of the way too.
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location:
Posts: 885
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I haven't flown with Chuck for a while but from what I recall it's no starts, but plenty of pinnacle work and all the other general flying things.
But.. I think if you are prepared to spend lots of $$ with him and he is happy with you then he becomes much more relaxed and will let you do the starts...
Why not drop him an email from his website?
But.. I think if you are prepared to spend lots of $$ with him and he is happy with you then he becomes much more relaxed and will let you do the starts...
Why not drop him an email from his website?
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chuck Street adapts to what you want to do, and the amount of flying you do with him.
Some PPLs are happy to do a few trips just flying around getting cheap turbine time in a different environment, wonderful scenery, great sightseeing and, best of all, the freedom of flying under sensible FAA regs without all the restrictions the CAA imposes in the UK.
But, if you show you can fly a B206 and want to do more than sightseeing, he'll adapt. Pinnacle landings, confined area, rooftop helipads etc.
Do the CAA allow the hours?
Sensible advice already given, so I won't repeat it.
I've not heard of anyone whose hours with either of the ENG operators in LA have been disallowed by the CAA. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I've not heard.
Is it useful time?
Matter of opinion. I think it is. Why not try it for a week and decide for yourself?
But, plan ahead. They are both usually heavily booked.
Some PPLs are happy to do a few trips just flying around getting cheap turbine time in a different environment, wonderful scenery, great sightseeing and, best of all, the freedom of flying under sensible FAA regs without all the restrictions the CAA imposes in the UK.
But, if you show you can fly a B206 and want to do more than sightseeing, he'll adapt. Pinnacle landings, confined area, rooftop helipads etc.
Do the CAA allow the hours?
Sensible advice already given, so I won't repeat it.
I've not heard of anyone whose hours with either of the ENG operators in LA have been disallowed by the CAA. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I've not heard.
Is it useful time?
Matter of opinion. I think it is. Why not try it for a week and decide for yourself?
But, plan ahead. They are both usually heavily booked.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1 deg south, avoiding Malaria P Falciparium
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can someone explain how this is legal. I have alwyas wondered this. How can a ppl or someone "hour building" fly while the operator is flying for hire or reward. You are flying an aricraft that is getting paid to do commerical work. Seems kind of grey area to me...
But what do I know
mayby ill get the copy of the FAR's that is holding the door open at the helibase and see what I can find.
Anyone else ever wondered this?
RB
But what do I know
mayby ill get the copy of the FAR's that is holding the door open at the helibase and see what I can find.
Anyone else ever wondered this?
RB
Guest
Posts: n/a
rotorboy,
The key is that those operators are Part 91 operations, because they take no external compensation for the use of the helo, they do no charter, carry no passengers, etc. For example, all the airframe manufacturers operate under Part 91.
The guest pilots only share in the expenses, they do not pay airfare.
The key is that those operators are Part 91 operations, because they take no external compensation for the use of the helo, they do no charter, carry no passengers, etc. For example, all the airframe manufacturers operate under Part 91.
The guest pilots only share in the expenses, they do not pay airfare.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nick,
I can see how that applies to the traffic news copter but I believe one of them is also a tourist flight machine.....
Quote from the website: "xxxxxxx offers private and commercial pilots the opportunity to fly the BELL 206 Jet Ranger BIII during sightseeing tours in Los Angeles"
I took this to mean I'd fly it with tourists in the back. It's highly unlikely that the only payload is the hourbuilding pilot at $120/hour..
Cheers,
Barry
I can see how that applies to the traffic news copter but I believe one of them is also a tourist flight machine.....
Quote from the website: "xxxxxxx offers private and commercial pilots the opportunity to fly the BELL 206 Jet Ranger BIII during sightseeing tours in Los Angeles"
I took this to mean I'd fly it with tourists in the back. It's highly unlikely that the only payload is the hourbuilding pilot at $120/hour..
Cheers,
Barry
Last edited by buttline; 6th Jul 2002 at 04:44.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: by the seaside
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nonstop sightseeing flights conducted with aircraft having a passenger seat configuration of 30 or fewer, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, that begin and end at the same airport, and are conducted within a 25 statute mile radius of that airport also come under Part 91.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hours building artilce- input requested!
Hello Rotorheads,
I’m currently a student commercial pilot (the lowest of the low) studying in Australia. I’m also a freelance journalist exiled from the dot com world of up and permanently down. Anyway I’m working on an article for the industry’s greatest pub, Heli-Ops regarding hours building options for low hour (<500) commercial pilots internationally. The goal of the article is to provide an overview of the options available and also to come up with some new ideas for both operators and pilots. To focus the potential discussion a bit my initial questions are this: Does the ultra-competitive nature of the industry make paid or work for free hours building options practically mandatory for a majority of new pilots and if so what are some of the better options? Do any operators have in-house hours building programs and if so who? Finally, any fresh ideas for building hours that would benefit both pilots and operators? Thanks so much for your time and ideas.
I’m currently a student commercial pilot (the lowest of the low) studying in Australia. I’m also a freelance journalist exiled from the dot com world of up and permanently down. Anyway I’m working on an article for the industry’s greatest pub, Heli-Ops regarding hours building options for low hour (<500) commercial pilots internationally. The goal of the article is to provide an overview of the options available and also to come up with some new ideas for both operators and pilots. To focus the potential discussion a bit my initial questions are this: Does the ultra-competitive nature of the industry make paid or work for free hours building options practically mandatory for a majority of new pilots and if so what are some of the better options? Do any operators have in-house hours building programs and if so who? Finally, any fresh ideas for building hours that would benefit both pilots and operators? Thanks so much for your time and ideas.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Okay, there is no easy way to build hours for a low time cpl unless you're lucky and get work straight away with someone prepared to give you a break. I think that in this industry, a lot of it is "who you know, not what you know".
Going the "flying for free" route will only get you a bad name. The reason being why should an employer pay someone to fly when someone will do it for free, which has the knock on effect of lower pay rates or no pay rates! Guaranteed to make you popular in the helicopter community.
Secondly, in the UK it has cost me probably £50k+, to get my licences, ratings etc and if someone comes along and stops me earning money with that licence,(if I ever manage to find work) I wouldn't be happy!!!!!!
I personally wouldn't advise anyone to go for a commercial licence at the minute but that's my personal opinion right now, unless of course, daddy just happens to own a helicopter and lets you have use of it to hour build. Oh, and buys you an AOC too.
Going the "flying for free" route will only get you a bad name. The reason being why should an employer pay someone to fly when someone will do it for free, which has the knock on effect of lower pay rates or no pay rates! Guaranteed to make you popular in the helicopter community.
Secondly, in the UK it has cost me probably £50k+, to get my licences, ratings etc and if someone comes along and stops me earning money with that licence,(if I ever manage to find work) I wouldn't be happy!!!!!!
I personally wouldn't advise anyone to go for a commercial licence at the minute but that's my personal opinion right now, unless of course, daddy just happens to own a helicopter and lets you have use of it to hour build. Oh, and buys you an AOC too.