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Is Ukraine about to have a war?

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Is Ukraine about to have a war?

Old 22nd Jan 2023, 17:48
  #13801 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins;11370856[b[b
]]It's reassuring to see that thGermany is competing with the UK for lies.
Yesterday I asked what you meant by this, but no answer. Are you going to answer today ?
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 17:51
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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
"All "UK based" expertise and capability could be shut down and moved at the drop of a hat"

Care to prove what you write ?
It's a German owned company, part of the Rheinmetall Group based in Düsseldorf. The IPR on a lot of their technology is owned by the group. Germany may be a NATO ally and friendly towards the UK, but things can change. Germany, Italy, The Netherlands and a few other European states have just found out how things can change quickly with gas supplies.

The fact is that the UK is largely beholden to a German company as far as heavy armour goes. We are seeing Germany refusing to allow armour to be sent to Ukraine because they own the IPR and end user chits. Do we want to be in that position?
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 18:39
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Netting around a Krab prevents a suicide drone kill.

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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 18:45
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Originally Posted by _Agrajag_
The key is in the wording "Rheinmetall BAE Systems Land (RBSL) is a UK-based combat vehicles design, manufacturing and support business."

It is neither UK owned nor UK controlled. All "UK based" expertise and capability could be shut down and moved at the drop of a hat. Nothing the UK government could do to stop it.
A new British military vehicle design, manufacturing and support joint venture will be unveiled at this year’s Defence and Security Equipment International (DSEI) event in London, between September 10th and 13th.
The new company is known as Rheinmetall BAE Systems Land (RBSL) and was formed on July 1st 2019 between Rheinmetall Defence UK and BAE Systems’ UK combat vehicle business. RBSL will sustain around 450 jobs across the UK and is well positioned for future growth.
The joint ventur
Well that says a joint venture.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 18:48
  #13805 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins
Thatcherite selling off our expertise for next to nothing, is going to seriously bite us in the bum. From Agrajag

Not just in this field either. The family Silver was sold off then and has kept being so. Politics drove construction of two new aircraft carriers and I leave it to those who know a lot more than me to judge if that was the right priority. Frankly I doubt it
On the radio a few days ago they mentioned the government was going to prop up British Steel with money.
The only trouble is British Steel is Chinese owned.
How does that happen?
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 18:54
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
Well that says a joint venture.
It all depends on who owns the IPR and end user rights to key technology. We've seen this loads of times before. We're seeing it with Germany and their refusal to allow other countries to send Leopards to Ukraine. Challenger 3 is a good example. It will be fitted with a Rheinmetall turret. That means that Rheinmetall will hold the end user rights over that part of the vehicle. Potentially that could stop the UK from giving Challenger 3's to any country without Germany's consent.

We've already been through this with other joint ventures. It's nothing new. Just because something is made by a joint venture does not grant one of the members unilateral control on how the product is used.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 19:28
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Boris is back in Ukraine showing his support for them, no doubt some of his detractors will slate him for it, but I have nothing but admiration for his support for Ukraine and their people, He puts himself in harms way to show that support and bolster the Ukrainian resolve.

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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 19:34
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 19:36
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Originally Posted by _Agrajag_;11371549[b
]It's a German owned company, [/b]part of the Rheinmetall Group based in Düsseldorf. The IPR on a lot of their technology is owned by the group. Germany may be a NATO ally and friendly towards the UK, but things can change. Germany, Italy, The Netherlands and a few other European states have just found out how things can change quickly with gas supplies.

The fact is that the UK is largely beholden to a German company as far as heavy armour goes. We are seeing Germany refusing to allow armour to be sent to Ukraine because they own the IPR and end user chits. Do we want to be in that position?
Well no, not as I understand company law. It is 55% Rheinmetall and 45% BAE. Unless you are privvy to full contractual data about the partners rights and responsibilities, your remark about everything could be closed down "just like that " is just unfounded speculation.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 19:45
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
Boris is back in Ukraine showing his support for them, no doubt some of his detractors will slate him for it, but I have nothing but admiration for his support for Ukraine and their people, He puts himself in harms way to show that support and bolster the Ukrainian resolve.
Absolutely. Arguably Ukraine would already be lost without his leadership on this.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 19:57
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I am not going there anymore with the Rheinmetall BAe set up, it is dragging the thread away from what is important, the war.

USA is offering tanks from their stocks to those countries willing to free the Leopards.

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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 20:05
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown
Absolutely. Arguably Ukraine would already be lost without his leadership on this.
I am not a BoJo fan but, for all his many faults, in my opinion he did three statesmanlike things in his premiership:

delivered Brexit [not fault-free], the will of the majority.
acted deciseivly in the early days of Covid, eg astra zeneca, before making an arse of himself yet again.
led the world in supporting Ukraine.

Not politics, statesmanship. And I reiterate that I am not a fan, and not a Conservative.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 20:09
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U.K. has upped the Challenger deliveries to 16 up 2 from the original 14

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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 21:25
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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
Well no, not as I understand company law. It is 55% Rheinmetall and 45% BAE. Unless you are privvy to full contractual data about the partners rights and responsibilities, your remark about everything could be closed down "just like that " is just unfounded speculation.
Not how it works. Look at other joint ventures. Even a minor partner can own critical IP that controls how the bit of kit gets used. Daft example, but the UK nuclear deterrent wasn't wholly under UK control. There was a lot of US IP in most of the weapons that meant the US called the shots on what the UK could or could not do.

We are seeing Germany refusing to allow other countries send their Leopards to Ukraine. What's to stop Germany refusing to allow the UK to send any kit with a German IP turret somewhere it doesn't want to?

As for moving out of the UK, then there is nothing in law keeping production at Telford. It's there because BAE took over Alvis, and Alvis produced armoured vehicles in Telford. If it is cheaper to manufacture in another country then what's to stop them just shutting up shop? It's happened with small arms. When the small arms ROF got bought by Heckler and Koch UK small arms manufacture moved to Germany (Oberndorf, I believe).
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 21:26
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In the clip of Boris, post 13796, isn't the Union Flag upside-down? That used to be a signal for distress I believe.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 21:49
  #13816 (permalink)  
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Not how it works. Look at other joint ventures. Even a minor partner can own critical IP that controls how the bit of kit gets used.
Hmm, no.

If they have input into the end-user certificate they can influence who you can sell it too - they can’t influence how you use it yourself.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 22:30
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BREAKING: Germany will not stand in the way if Poland sends leopard tanks to Ukraine, Germany's foreign minister says - Reuters

​​​​​​​https://twitter.com/faytuks/status/1..._Rh_rgOXSGu15Q
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 22:40
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Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin
we haven't designed a "new" main battle tank in the UK since the mid-80s, so it's not as if there was a design team to disperse in the first place..
To be fair, the Abrams entered service in the 1980s. So it's not like anyone has a MBT design team currently in place.
OTOH, neither the Abrams or Leopard have shown notable weaknesses in actual combat. Hence the focus has been on updating them with more modern technology rather than doing a new design.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 23:24
  #13819 (permalink)  
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I am beginning to wonder how long Ukrainians were training on Bradley's in Germany before the announced transfers.🤔

American infantry fighting vehicles M2 Bradley are spotted in Poland today

Polish railway company PKP Polskie Linie Kolejowe transports Bradleys toward the Ukrainian border.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 23:38
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Originally Posted by tdracer
To be fair, the Abrams entered service in the 1980s. So it's not like anyone has a MBT design team currently in place.
MPFP - even tho the US doesn't call it a tank its a tank.
Abrams X - or abrams replacement is on the drawing board
Euro MBT is being developed by france and germany
Panther prototype was released by Rheinmetal
Tracked boxer has also been demoed
K2 - development of upgrades and national specs is still happening ie K2PL

So yeah plenty of tank design teams still working away
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