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Is Ukraine about to have a war?

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Is Ukraine about to have a war?

Old 21st Jan 2023, 19:50
  #13781 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown
It's a great shame that this tank issue is causing such division amongst allies when what is needed at this point is unity in confronting Putin's expansionism.
In one, and also has a knock on effect on future NATO operations, I realise Ukraine is an odd ball and maybe a one off, but it does highlight weaknesses and divisions in a centralised NATO commitment.

To plagiarise the three Musketeers, it should be all for one and one for all.
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 21:30
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown
It's a great shame that this tank issue is causing such division amongst allies when what is needed at this point is unity in confronting Putin's expansionism.
The real truth most likely is that no-one has a main battle tank that's of any real use for a myriad of reasons and that no-one wants to be embarrassed by that like Russia is. Best to appear strong than remove all doubt.
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 22:55
  #13783 (permalink)  
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Mark Hertling riposte regarding the Abrams vs Leopard thread post earlier…..

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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 04:13
  #13784 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by NutLoose
To plagiarise the three Musketeers, it should be all for one and one for all.
Wasn't there a thread on a European Army Nutty?
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 06:22
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Dea King and general across the board update of operations.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...near-black-sea


Ukraine Situation Report: Donated Sea King Helicopter Makes Debut Near Black Sea
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 08:31
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Originally Posted by _Agrajag_
There is a great deal of merit in paying to retain a UK capability, The proviso is that it MUST be interoperable. The UK has a very nasty habit of producing unicorns, and then not having the funds to keep them operational and properly supported.
Agreed.

The largest and most important Infantry programme of the last few decades originally had 'Interoperability' in the title of the oversight and management authority. The aim was to reduce casualties, through integration and interoperability increasing tempo. DEC insisted that 'Interoperability' be removed before approval. 'We aren't required to be interoperable with our own people (RN and RAF, or even other Army units), never mind allies'.

To this day it's not in the title. It's an aspiration, not a policy.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 08:55
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Originally Posted by langleybaston
Do we have VSOs among us?

And if so, are any smart?
If they were smart, one might think the least they could do was to fully crew the few aircraft we have in the modern RAF !
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 12:06
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 12:10
  #13789 (permalink)  
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The Economist:

Vladimir Putin’s war is turning Russia into a failed state, with uncontrolled borders, private military formations, a fleeing population, moral decay and the possibility of civil conflict.

https://www.economist.com/the-world-...ing-into-chaos
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 14:32
  #13790 (permalink)  
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Thinks tense between Washington and Berlin…

​​​​​​​Interesting report from SZ on the Leopards 2 debacle and the discussions between the US and Germany

"The refusal from Berlin led to violent reactions in Washington"

Lloyd Austin is said to have gotten into a heated argument with Scholz's chief of staff….
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 15:01
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
I think any replacement new build needs to be home built, buying in has a quality all of its own, however, buying in means the demise of the UK’s tank building industry, the closing of factories and the dispersal of the design teams meaning you will be beholden to other countries for your Armaments from hence forth. Look what happened to the likes of the UK’s once world beating military aviation companies, killed off by imports.
Pardon the maritime metaphor, but that ship has sailed. The only real "tank-builders" in the UK closed well over a decade ago - and we haven't designed a "new" main battle tank in the UK since the mid-80s, so it's not as if there was a design team to disperse in the first place..
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 15:33
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Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin
Pardon the maritime metaphor, but that ship has sailed. The only real "tank-builders" in the UK closed well over a decade ago - and we haven't designed a "new" main battle tank in the UK since the mid-80s, so it's not as if there was a design team to disperse in the first place..
Not only did Leeds close, but we also sold off the R&D place that came up with Chobham armour. Doubt we have the expertise to either design or build heavy armour now. Same goes for a lot of other kit. We sold off RSRE years ago, so lost the ability to design our own comms and radar kit.

There comes a point where the loss of capability from cuts in spending, or Thatcherite selling off our expertise for next to nothing, is going to seriously bite us in the bum. Being dependent on other nations for key expertise and manufacturing capability puts us at the mercy of both those other nations and the influence of the multinational commercial entities they rely on. The war in Ukraine should be a wake-up call. We've seen how one petty tyrant can cause massive global disruption.

Everyone in the UK, and many other countries, has felt the impact of so many countries being influenced badly by one tyrannical state. I doubt our bloody government will take a blind bit of notice, though. Learning lessons from experience is not something governments do.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 16:04
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Originally Posted by _Agrajag_
Being dependent on other nations for key expertise and manufacturing capability puts us at the mercy of both those other nations and the influence of the multinational commercial entities they rely on.
The entire world has grown interdependent, this is no longer the days of yore when everybody was a potential enemy. Rather than 'going it alone', becoming part of something larger seems to be the order of the day.

Originally Posted by _Agrajag_
The war in Ukraine should be a wake-up call. We've seen how one petty tyrant can cause massive global disruption.
The war in Ukraine also points out how important friends can be.

Maybe Britain can find some way to undo Britexit?
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 16:04
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Thatcherite selling off our expertise for next to nothing, is going to seriously bite us in the bum. From Agrajag

Not just in this field either. The family Silver was sold off then and has kept being so. Politics drove construction of two new aircraft carriers and I leave it to those who know a lot more than me to judge if that was the right priority. Frankly I doubt it
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 16:11
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Ukraines new Sea Kings

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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 16:13
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Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin
Pardon the maritime metaphor, but that ship has sailed. The only real "tank-builders" in the UK closed well over a decade ago - and we haven't designed a "new" main battle tank in the UK since the mid-80s, so it's not as if there was a design team to disperse in the first place..
https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/...land/index.php
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 16:25
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The key is in the wording "Rheinmetall BAE Systems Land (RBSL) is a UK-based combat vehicles design, manufacturing and support business."

It is neither UK owned nor UK controlled. All "UK based" expertise and capability could be shut down and moved at the drop of a hat. Nothing the UK government could do to stop it.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 16:38
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Originally Posted by ORAC
Lloyd Austin is said to have gotten into a heated argument with Scholz's chief of staff….
He should not only shout at the chief of staff (who can't decide this on his own). This won't be sufficient. He should also shout at the perpetrator himself (Scholz). Or maybe Biden himself can give him a (verbal) beating?! I'm still counting on NSA to find material regarding Wirecard or Cum- Ex. When the trainings on Leo 2 start now they have roughly two months for putting pressure on Scholz/Schmidt without losing to much time effectively. Hope that works.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 16:40
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Originally Posted by _Agrajag_
The key is in the wording "Rheinmetall BAE Systems Land (RBSL) is a UK-based combat vehicles design, manufacturing and support business."

It is neither UK owned nor UK controlled. All "UK based" expertise and capability could be shut down and moved at the drop of a hat. Nothing the UK government could do to stop it.
"All "UK based" expertise and capability could be shut down and moved at the drop of a hat"

Care to prove what you write ?
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 16:43
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Originally Posted by henra
He should not only shout at the chief of staff (who can't decide this on his own). This won't be sufficient. He should also shout at the perpetrator himself (Scholz). Or maybe Biden himself can give him a (verbal) beating?! I'm still counting on NSA to find material regarding Wirecard or Cum- Ex.
How can they do that ? It would require humans with expertise in German financial law to read every document.
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