British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
Juan
you must realise that most of us are on the brink of agreement but not in the way BA are carrying on...
Last edited by wiggy; 22nd May 2010 at 14:43.
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YOU might think it morally wrong...but literally thousands of your colleagues also think what Walsh is doing IS morally wrong in a big way
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Tiramisu,
It's equally typical that because I find your reasons to explicitly post your salary for all and sundry to see disingenuous that I am therefore a BASSAmentalist.
It is possible to be a member of BASSA without being part of the lunatic fringe to which you refer. There are some of us that have not taken either of the 'extreme' positions, neither BASSA hardline nor 'I'm Backing BA' zealotry.
I have significant misgivings over the behaviour of both parties in this power struggle and have similar criticisms of BASSAs decision making.
An enormous personal disappointment is that whilst recognising BASSA's deficiencies I have stood by and not tried in any way to influence some change from within. I would also suggest that any BASSA member past and present that feels the same way is also guilty if inaction.
In fact, by accepting the status quo for all these years almost all the remaining membership, some 10000, apart from the true die-hards who wouldn't have it any other way, need to accept responsibility for where we find ourselves today.
This is so typical of the BASSA mentality, anyone that posts anything other than the BASSA rhetoric is not cabin crew, is a Manager, a Pilot or someone from Waterside! Have a little more intelligence than Derek Simpson credits you with being 'articulate and intelligent on national TV and please read my posts. I have flown with several posters here and don't need to justify anything to you.
It is possible to be a member of BASSA without being part of the lunatic fringe to which you refer. There are some of us that have not taken either of the 'extreme' positions, neither BASSA hardline nor 'I'm Backing BA' zealotry.
I have significant misgivings over the behaviour of both parties in this power struggle and have similar criticisms of BASSAs decision making.
An enormous personal disappointment is that whilst recognising BASSA's deficiencies I have stood by and not tried in any way to influence some change from within. I would also suggest that any BASSA member past and present that feels the same way is also guilty if inaction.
In fact, by accepting the status quo for all these years almost all the remaining membership, some 10000, apart from the true die-hards who wouldn't have it any other way, need to accept responsibility for where we find ourselves today.
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Tiramisu, I think it is admirable that you posted your exact earnings on here. Yes, BA has traditionally paid significantly better than other UK carriers, but I do believe that many (but sadly not all!) cabin crew are very committed and deserve their salaries.
What I find really sad, if not disturbing, is the cult-ish behaviour that many cabin crew. Those who boast that they delete all emails from Willie, Bill, their managers, etc. are just plain foolish. By all means, people have the right to go on strike. But to not even to pay attention to what their employer (I'm pretty sure payslips say British Airways in the top corner, not BASSA, unlike I'm mistaken?) is saying to them before rejecting it is complete madness.
It is also shocking how scared many people have been about coming to work during a strike, even those who voted 'no' and are not members of BASSA/Amicus. Surely something is fundamentally wrong when people fear their colleagues in this way.
I really fear that things will go downhill soon - and a number of people have very unfortunately brought this upon themselves. Hopefully not everybody will suffer...
What I find really sad, if not disturbing, is the cult-ish behaviour that many cabin crew. Those who boast that they delete all emails from Willie, Bill, their managers, etc. are just plain foolish. By all means, people have the right to go on strike. But to not even to pay attention to what their employer (I'm pretty sure payslips say British Airways in the top corner, not BASSA, unlike I'm mistaken?) is saying to them before rejecting it is complete madness.
It is also shocking how scared many people have been about coming to work during a strike, even those who voted 'no' and are not members of BASSA/Amicus. Surely something is fundamentally wrong when people fear their colleagues in this way.
I really fear that things will go downhill soon - and a number of people have very unfortunately brought this upon themselves. Hopefully not everybody will suffer...
It is also shocking how scared many people have been about coming to work during a strike, ....... Surely something is fundamentally wrong when people fear their colleagues in this way.
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Originally Posted by wiggy
If Mr Woodley and Mr Simpson are to be believed one of BA's "carrying on's" that's blocking agreement is the CEO's refusal to interfere in the Disciplinary process. A question for you: Do you think the CEO should halt the disciplinaries, irrespective of the offences that are alledged to have been committed?
Despite what Bassa would have us believe, nobody has been suspended for taking part in industrial action.
People have been suspended (or are facing disciplinary action) for alleged bullying and intimidation.
I don't for one second believe that all of the people in question are guilty. I've met some of them and they aren't the kind of people who'd be guilty of this kind of behaviour (delighted to say that atleast one of them is now back at work).
HOWEVER, as someone who has had anonymous 'hate' notes in his dropfile at work and nasty messages on Facebook from a user called 'Scabby Hunter', I would personal be absolutely livid if I discovered that someone who was genuinely guilty of bullying was let somewhat off the hook because of these negotiations.
Bullying has no place in the workplace and to effectively sweep under the rug a number of cases of alleged bullying would completely undermine the company's zero-tollerance policy.
I do sincerely hope that the majority of those currently wrongfully facing the action are reinstated very, very soon.
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There is a Unite approved disciplinary procedure in BA.
How can BA - legally or morally - simply overlook all, or any, disciplinaries in the process?
If someone deserves a penalty then so be it, if not then that is called justice too.
Do the victims (who are also possibly Bassa members, or crew) deserve to know that their complaint is being treated with respect?
Willie cannot change this policy, and never will!
How can BA - legally or morally - simply overlook all, or any, disciplinaries in the process?
If someone deserves a penalty then so be it, if not then that is called justice too.
Do the victims (who are also possibly Bassa members, or crew) deserve to know that their complaint is being treated with respect?
Willie cannot change this policy, and never will!
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Originally Posted by Boondocker
In fact, by accepting the status quo for all these years almost all the remaining membership, some 10000, apart from the true die-hards who wouldn't have it any other way, need to accept responsibility for where we find ourselves today.
When I joined BA I immediately joined Bassa, too. And I attended, until last year, almost every single Bassa meeting. I'd request days off, take leave days and I'd fly down from Aberdeen just to attend.
I'd be one among 25-30 regulars.
Then, when things started hitting the fan and our terms were in jeopardy, everyone started coming out of the woodwork. We'd get a thousand or more people at the really important meetings while, almost immediately after things had calmed down, attendance figures dropped way back again (although not to the 25-30 level - I remember once failing to get a quorum!)
Walsh has every reason to believe that this isn't really a strong union because people only pop up when something seems to impact them. They tend not to be interested the rest of the time.
Had 1,000+ people attended every meeting every time (very possible), Mr. Walsh may well have been more dubious about being so steadfast in his position.
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I do sincerely hope that the majority of those currently wrongfully facing the action are reinstated very, very soon.
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Eddy -
This post by Sporran was allowed to stand a few pages back -
"However, all the lies, deceipt, bullying and detestable behaviour from the scum from bassa"
Do you think that it is acceptable?
This post by Sporran was allowed to stand a few pages back -
"However, all the lies, deceipt, bullying and detestable behaviour from the scum from bassa"
Do you think that it is acceptable?
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Posted By Litebulbs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiramisu
Why didn't they watch the slides and pay lip service and at least grin and bear it even if they found it boring
That is a key issue here and I fully agree with you. In not doing it, it strengthened Mr Walsh's position. You do have to be in the room to say no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiramisu
Why didn't they watch the slides and pay lip service and at least grin and bear it even if they found it boring
That is a key issue here and I fully agree with you. In not doing it, it strengthened Mr Walsh's position. You do have to be in the room to say no.
One thing Willie Walsh has repeatedly said is that is he will always work with UNITE and UNITE is the Union that the cabin crew agreements will come under. Infact it is on record, and still is in the IFCE Intranet Library videos when he was asked a question re-future Union representation for cabin crew at one of the employee forums.
Boondocker
I just realised, I have proved Willie Walsh and the Pilots correct in the figures mentioned about our salaries. I think the Press do read the forum, so no need to take out a full page advertisment. At least they'll realise Willie Walsh is telling the truth and know who is lying.
Posted by 64k
Tiramisu, I think it is admirable that you posted your exact earnings on here. Yes, BA has traditionally paid significantly better than other UK carriers, but I do believe that many (but sadly not all!) cabin crew are very committed and deserve their salaries.
Tiramisu, I think it is admirable that you posted your exact earnings on here. Yes, BA has traditionally paid significantly better than other UK carriers, but I do believe that many (but sadly not all!) cabin crew are very committed and deserve their salaries.
If am honest I've been wanting to put the record straight for some time and finally decided to. That's what I earn and it's no point lying about it.
Having said that, I'm not saying that we don't deserve what we're paid. All I said is I can't justify my salary at the moment since the reduced offering on flights in the last eighteen months. On a normal shorthaul flight, all we do is a bar after take off, meals, tea & coffee and duty frees. I would not have said that eighteen months ago when we were working our socks off, reality is the job has changed whether we like to believe it or not.
I know we deal with all sorts of emergencies, but that's what we get paid to do and so does every cabin crew member in every other airline. That is the nature of the job, it doesn't make us unique in what we do.
I think we've had our good times and sadly our business model does not work any more to remain competitive. If Willie Walsh doesn't sort this out, someone else will, that's a fact. It's a tragedy that BASSA failed to negotiate when they had the opportunity. We could all have, all of us in BA been enjoying the summer instead of worrying about jobs, regardless of what department we're working in insted of being in this terrible position we're in now. Sadly, we BA cabin crew are the most hated group of employees in the UK at the moment for ruining people's holidays and travel plans this summer.
I am BA cabin crew and the above are my own views.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 22nd May 2010 at 15:37.
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Tiramisu, I wish more people had the balanced views you do. Maybe then we wouldn't be in this big mess!
People need to acknowledge that times are very hard for BA. I'm not crew and wish I was earning more (my pay is below market rate) but when times are hard, I think we need to do what we can to keep our employer in business.
Positive thinking - things can only get better, hopefully...
(The above are my personal views, not the views of my employer)
People need to acknowledge that times are very hard for BA. I'm not crew and wish I was earning more (my pay is below market rate) but when times are hard, I think we need to do what we can to keep our employer in business.
Positive thinking - things can only get better, hopefully...
(The above are my personal views, not the views of my employer)
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Originally Posted by Litebulbs
Eddy -
This post by Sporran was allowed to stand a few pages back -
"However, all the lies, deceipt, bullying and detestable behaviour from the scum from bassa"
Do you think that it is acceptable?
This post by Sporran was allowed to stand a few pages back -
"However, all the lies, deceipt, bullying and detestable behaviour from the scum from bassa"
Do you think that it is acceptable?
EVERYONE in this conflict is doing what they think is right and nobody should feel entitled to be able to judge anyone else for making a personal choice.
Sporran needs a spanking.
Even those who took part in the Arora march don't deserve to be labelled "scum", in my opinion. These are committed, passionnate people who believe in their cause and are expressing their feelings however they know how. Some of their methods are inappropriate, but they're not "scum".
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Why Dont The Media Pick Up On This ?????
These are some examples of the disciplinary issues BA have been asked by some crew members to investigate :
Written/phone threats to kidnap a pilot Volunteer Cabin Crew's children
Written/text threats to poison pilots food.
Compiling & disseminating lists of "Pilot Scabs"
Creating "dodgy" and pornographic websites and linking them to PCCC/BA via google
Refusing to talk to the operating Captain, instead turning away and giving him the bird in a briefing.
I understand that the police are involved in some of those cases. Reinstatement would be made difficult by the loss of ones airside pass.
Unite/BASSA are asking the IMPOSSIBLE to ask Willie Walsh to just drop these accusations, which were made by crew themselves.
WHY DONT THE MEDIA PICK UP ON THIS INSTEAD OF LETTING WOODLEY AND SIMPSON BLEAT ON ABOUT BA BEING PETTY AND VINDICTIVE ????
Written/phone threats to kidnap a pilot Volunteer Cabin Crew's children
Written/text threats to poison pilots food.
Compiling & disseminating lists of "Pilot Scabs"
Creating "dodgy" and pornographic websites and linking them to PCCC/BA via google
Refusing to talk to the operating Captain, instead turning away and giving him the bird in a briefing.
I understand that the police are involved in some of those cases. Reinstatement would be made difficult by the loss of ones airside pass.
Unite/BASSA are asking the IMPOSSIBLE to ask Willie Walsh to just drop these accusations, which were made by crew themselves.
WHY DONT THE MEDIA PICK UP ON THIS INSTEAD OF LETTING WOODLEY AND SIMPSON BLEAT ON ABOUT BA BEING PETTY AND VINDICTIVE ????
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My concern
Ideally, there should be an agreement between the two sides, BUT how do we address a situation where we still retain the employment of BASSA die hards, who, will, at a time of their choosing (no doubt 'coincidental timings' around Christmas/Easter etc) kick off again!
After witnessing reactions from such colleagues after the union appeal hearing, I am so worried for the future of our company with such disloyal staff who could'nt care less about the passengers that pay their wages, their loyal colleagues and members of the public that are aghast at their reasons for striking and associated immoral behaviour.
The only other way is to make them 'irrelevant' by all legal means possible. How, I don't know, but our company will be a ticking time bomb with their continued employment.
Worrying times ahead, I feel
After witnessing reactions from such colleagues after the union appeal hearing, I am so worried for the future of our company with such disloyal staff who could'nt care less about the passengers that pay their wages, their loyal colleagues and members of the public that are aghast at their reasons for striking and associated immoral behaviour.
The only other way is to make them 'irrelevant' by all legal means possible. How, I don't know, but our company will be a ticking time bomb with their continued employment.
Worrying times ahead, I feel
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Eddy,
I didn't think for one moment that you would. My point is that there is no self policing on here. You should not be able to call any party scab or scum, but it just seems unbalanced when the insult is allowed to go one way. Neither should be tolerated and everyone should police to keep words like that out of the debate.
I didn't think for one moment that you would. My point is that there is no self policing on here. You should not be able to call any party scab or scum, but it just seems unbalanced when the insult is allowed to go one way. Neither should be tolerated and everyone should police to keep words like that out of the debate.
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Agree entirely, Litebulbs.
I just look past the personal insults from both sides but am disappointed when they occasionally pop up.
The majority of us on here are either people in a role where care is a main prerequisite (cabin crew crew) or where common sense and maturity are among the most valuable assets available (pilots) but when remarks like "scab" and "scum" are made, it makes me question whether we all posess such qualities.
Best wishes,
I just look past the personal insults from both sides but am disappointed when they occasionally pop up.
The majority of us on here are either people in a role where care is a main prerequisite (cabin crew crew) or where common sense and maturity are among the most valuable assets available (pilots) but when remarks like "scab" and "scum" are made, it makes me question whether we all posess such qualities.
Best wishes,
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Personnel costs
The figures for UK airlines are collated and published by the CAA. Here is the link to the latest information.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2009.pdf
The average expenditure a head of £31,400 for cabin crew includes gross salary, overtime pay, sales commissions, flying pay, subsistence allowances and all crew hourly flight allowances. All payroll-based employer's costs such as NI and health insurance are excluded.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2009.pdf
The average expenditure a head of £31,400 for cabin crew includes gross salary, overtime pay, sales commissions, flying pay, subsistence allowances and all crew hourly flight allowances. All payroll-based employer's costs such as NI and health insurance are excluded.
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Why Dont The Media Pick Up On This ?????
These are some examples of the disciplinary issues BA have been asked by some crew members to investigate :
Written/phone threats to kidnap a pilot Volunteer Cabin Crew's children
Written/text threats to poison pilots food.
Compiling & disseminating lists of "Pilot Scabs"
Creating "dodgy" and pornographic websites and linking them to PCCC/BA via google
Refusing to talk to the operating Captain, instead turning away and giving him the bird in a briefing.
I understand that the police are involved in some of those cases. Reinstatement would be made difficult by the loss of ones airside pass.
Unite/BASSA are asking the IMPOSSIBLE to ask Willie Walsh to just drop these accusations, which were made by crew themselves.
WHY DONT THE MEDIA PICK UP ON THIS INSTEAD OF LETTING WOODLEY AND SIMPSON BLEAT ON ABOUT BA BEING PETTY AND VINDICTIVE ????
Written/phone threats to kidnap a pilot Volunteer Cabin Crew's children
Written/text threats to poison pilots food.
Compiling & disseminating lists of "Pilot Scabs"
Creating "dodgy" and pornographic websites and linking them to PCCC/BA via google
Refusing to talk to the operating Captain, instead turning away and giving him the bird in a briefing.
I understand that the police are involved in some of those cases. Reinstatement would be made difficult by the loss of ones airside pass.
Unite/BASSA are asking the IMPOSSIBLE to ask Willie Walsh to just drop these accusations, which were made by crew themselves.
WHY DONT THE MEDIA PICK UP ON THIS INSTEAD OF LETTING WOODLEY AND SIMPSON BLEAT ON ABOUT BA BEING PETTY AND VINDICTIVE ????
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A couple of hundred members of the Socialist Workers party have decended on ACAS' offices and several have broken in to the building to try and disrupt the meetings.
According to one of the lefties on the BBC news they are doing it to show solidarity.
According to one of the lefties on the BBC news they are doing it to show solidarity.