British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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Go back a few years and you will see that we lost a purser from upper deck and last year another one. The principle is that once it's gone you never get it back.
It is not a particularly safe principle to stonewall on the basis that it can't be negotiated back in future - give the business some flexibility (particularly in Eurofleet), and negotiate some bonuses based upon productivity and business improvement and everyone could be a winner while building a stronger business.
Problem is, that is exactly what WW was offering...!
Perhaps that was not communicated well, and perhaps WW does want to retain the union through which to negotiate with staff - I think WW's error was in relying on the union to communicate the reality of what was trying to be achieved rather than talking directly to staff and sooner.
I expect that he did not want to be seen undermining the union during negotiations. However, after 18 months of the union undermining him and his management while - it seems - they negotiated (or tried to) in good faith, it all seems a little pointless.
WW and management should have communicated directly with staff earlier and stronger - hindsight give us all that easy answer.
Reality is that Malone et al were irresponsible and childish with your future, when WW was expecting some adult behaviour. What union on earth in this day and age thinks it is a good idea NOT to negotiate, during the worst recession since the 1930s...?!
We can only hope that pointed questions on this forum eventually penetrate the veil of unreality in lalaland on crewforum, and that those reps can be brought to account for their totally irresponsible actions. Only then can the crew have proper representation that they need and deserve, be it under Unite or elsewhere.
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Miss M
I work in Engineering and relate the rumours that have done the rounds in that department (and they certainly caused stress and worry). To be fair I cannot comment on whether other departments have experienced similar rumours only to find that things were not as bad as first thought.
I cannot change your current lack of trust in this management. I suppose it it could be compared with a personal relationship that has gone wrong and can take a long time for any trust between the parties to be regained (if ever).
It is clear that when this dispute is over, the BA management have a lot of work to do to regain the trust of you and your colleagues. I hope that the words and actions currently taken by Willie Walsh and proven to be true, will give you some olive branch to regain that trust.
I work in Engineering and relate the rumours that have done the rounds in that department (and they certainly caused stress and worry). To be fair I cannot comment on whether other departments have experienced similar rumours only to find that things were not as bad as first thought.
I cannot change your current lack of trust in this management. I suppose it it could be compared with a personal relationship that has gone wrong and can take a long time for any trust between the parties to be regained (if ever).
It is clear that when this dispute is over, the BA management have a lot of work to do to regain the trust of you and your colleagues. I hope that the words and actions currently taken by Willie Walsh and proven to be true, will give you some olive branch to regain that trust.
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MissM wrote:
This is known as reality. Every employer is looking to cut costs in a downturn. The way to pretty much guarantee that you lose your job is to go on strike, thus convincing the company that you need to be replaced by cheaper workers ASAP.
On the other hand, if you work with BA to cut costs and provide an on board service which pax see as superior to QANTAS (FF pax see BA as inferior), then you might keep your job.
Quote:
Willie Walsh said that BA's cabin crew costs were 31.3% higher than those of QANTAS on the kangaroo routes. Other costs were roughly comparable. He also said that the Australian flights were loss-making.
Look at what's happening with QF crew down in Australia.
They didn't keep up the pace and what has happened? QF has a crew base at LHR and some other ports in Asia and New Zealand and they are taking work for mainline crew. They have also created Jetstar which could almost be compared to WW's idea of New Fleet. If mainline doesn't agree to the changes QF management wants, they just say they will move the route over to Jetstar.
Willie Walsh said that BA's cabin crew costs were 31.3% higher than those of QANTAS on the kangaroo routes. Other costs were roughly comparable. He also said that the Australian flights were loss-making.
Look at what's happening with QF crew down in Australia.
They didn't keep up the pace and what has happened? QF has a crew base at LHR and some other ports in Asia and New Zealand and they are taking work for mainline crew. They have also created Jetstar which could almost be compared to WW's idea of New Fleet. If mainline doesn't agree to the changes QF management wants, they just say they will move the route over to Jetstar.
On the other hand, if you work with BA to cut costs and provide an on board service which pax see as superior to QANTAS (FF pax see BA as inferior), then you might keep your job.
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Oh please, BA flying empty B747's round and round to make the operation look busier, I'm not gonna waste too many keyboard strokes on a reply, other than to say ..............
BASSA, you are so desperate, it's scary
and pity those that allow themselves to be brainwashed. I bet they all believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy as well 
And we wonder why we're in a pickle
BASSA, you are so desperate, it's scary
and pity those that allow themselves to be brainwashed. I bet they all believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy as well And we wonder why we're in a pickle
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Oh please, BA flying empty B747's round and round to make the operation look busier, I'm not gonna waste too many keyboard strokes on a reply, other than to say ...........
Controversial, moi?
Apparently that's why they did during our strike in 1997.
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MrBernoulli
BA is not a bad place to work when you have good colleagues and enjoy your profession.
BASSA has offered savings. They haven't been enough for BA but I don't think all of the blame can be put on BASSA. BA also has its "fair share" of guilt.
Our cause, yes. Undermining the majority? Do you mean the strikebreakers?
I never said it was true. Apparently it happened if you are to believe the Socialist Way.
BA is not a bad place to work when you have good colleagues and enjoy your profession.
BASSA has offered savings. They haven't been enough for BA but I don't think all of the blame can be put on BASSA. BA also has its "fair share" of guilt.
Our cause, yes. Undermining the majority? Do you mean the strikebreakers?
I never said it was true. Apparently it happened if you are to believe the Socialist Way.
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Miss M
Apparently that's why they did during our strike in 1997.
There were, however, a handful of empty flights that took off for repositioning purposes and crago freighting but these are well documented in their own right.
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Just back from operating as VCC today supporting a famil flight for the latest batch of ground staff volunteers. Once again, there was a brilliant atmosphere on board with the crew all very keen and raring to go.
There is one of these every week at the moment with around 40 new volunteers getting their wings on completion of their 21-day course.
They are also doing their 747-400 training later in the week.
As BASSA squabble internally with Unite, BA continues to develop an even bigger contingency plan. Courses are planned all the way through May and beyond. Expect over 90% of passengers to be able to travel during any future industrial action.
There is one of these every week at the moment with around 40 new volunteers getting their wings on completion of their 21-day course.
They are also doing their 747-400 training later in the week.
As BASSA squabble internally with Unite, BA continues to develop an even bigger contingency plan. Courses are planned all the way through May and beyond. Expect over 90% of passengers to be able to travel during any future industrial action.
Last edited by BentleyH; 13th Apr 2010 at 09:37.
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Oh please, BA flying empty B747's round and round to make the operation look busier, I'm not gonna waste too many keyboard strokes on a reply, other than to say ..............
BASSA, you are so desperate, it's scary and pity those that allow themselves to be brainwashed. I bet they all believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy as well
And we wonder why we're in a pickle
BASSA, you are so desperate, it's scary and pity those that allow themselves to be brainwashed. I bet they all believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy as well
And we wonder why we're in a pickle
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Just to put this to bed. I'm an air traffic controller and I work the airspace over London. No ba aircraft were taking off and doing circuits before landing again
Did not happen.
Did not happen.
It is a fact. On the 2nd wave of the strike 747 were taking off by T1 gates. That was not a BASSA rumour, that was reported on tv bu BBC and I was there and I did see a couple of 747 taking off from there. Cant say i they were going around but they were empty.
Last edited by StudentInDebt; 13th Apr 2010 at 06:05.
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I always remember when I joined BA several years ago, I was told that if a 747 flew with either a full cargo hold or a full First Class, anything else was profit. I guess flying with a full cargo hold and breaking even would make good business sense. Happy cargo customers and more BA planes flying overhead.
Anyway, does anyone know when a new strike has to be called by before the strike mandate runs out. Or, as a strike has already been called, does the mandate not run out. Any answers would be great.
Apologies. Just found the answer to my own question. For others info.
'Unite must give a week’s notice of any fresh action. In order to preserve its mandate the union also has to start a strike within 28 days of the last one, meaning that it would have to announce a walkout by April 20, unless British Airways agrees to extend the authority granted by the ballot.'
Anyway, does anyone know when a new strike has to be called by before the strike mandate runs out. Or, as a strike has already been called, does the mandate not run out. Any answers would be great.
Apologies. Just found the answer to my own question. For others info.
'Unite must give a week’s notice of any fresh action. In order to preserve its mandate the union also has to start a strike within 28 days of the last one, meaning that it would have to announce a walkout by April 20, unless British Airways agrees to extend the authority granted by the ballot.'
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Miss M has expressed very eloquently the two main reasons that the strikers are on strike:
a. They do not trust BA
b. They have an innate fear of New Fleet.
This is primarily because BASSA/Unite have engineered both of these fears in people. I too am cabin crew, I too am fearful of New Fleet. However (and this could be the crucial difference) I TRUST BA when they say they will not impact on my current T&Cs. Why? Well BA have provided two assurances to that effect:
a. The Monthly Travel Payment
b. The transfer of routes on an A, B, C order.
If we sign an agreement with BA to this effect, then being of a logical mind, I am confident that if BA were to renege on the agreement in the future, we could take them to task on it - after all, it would be in black and white. Miss M, you seem to be of a logical mind - which bit of a written agreement do you feel that BA could renege on?
So why do the strikers have such deep mistrust, not only of BA but everyone? Because BASSA have fed the members lies, lies, lies. Just take a look at one of the very first lies BASSA claimed and how it was refuted:
Lie #1: There is no need to make savings.
- BA offered BASSA to look at the books - they refused.
- BA got PWC to independantly audit the books - BASSA said PWC were corrupt.
- The Judge in the February court case ruled that BA were correct in their assessment to make savings.
So we now have HARD EVIDENCE that BA have not lied. If the strikers mistrust BA, then mistrust PWC, Miss M are you now saying that even the judiciary are involved in this anti-BASSA campaign??
Second of all, if BASSA mistrust BA so much then why on earth would they offer them a paycut??? If BA were as untrustworthy as BASSA claim, then BA could have taken the paycut, which was offered over a year ago now. If we had have taken it, BA could now be coming at us for more - New Fleet, complement changes, etc. Therefore the fact that BA did not accept the paycut, is evidence that they are to be trusted.
The final FACT to be relied on in all of this is, somewhat regrettably for us, WW has done everything that he said he would. He said he would impose if agreement was not reached - he did. He said the offers would get worse - they did. He said strikers would lose staff travel - they have. Can anyone state a fact that proves he is a liar?
This deep mistrust of anyone and everyone (pilots, non-strikers, volunteers, BA, PWC, the judiciary, etc) is the root cause of this strike. Miss M - why do you feel you have to choose between BA and BASSA? You work for BA and you PAY BASSA to act in your best interests. They have not. They have let you down - and the evidence is there IF you choose to accept it.
Like any other policy you take out, it's time to let this one go. They are currently ruining our once great community. We all need to regroup and stand up for ourselves before we get left with nothing. It's time to wipe the slate clean, forget about the lies that have been told to us, and READ THE FACTS FOR OURSELVES. I am very fearful of the consequences for our entire community, if we do not.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
a. They do not trust BA
b. They have an innate fear of New Fleet.
This is primarily because BASSA/Unite have engineered both of these fears in people. I too am cabin crew, I too am fearful of New Fleet. However (and this could be the crucial difference) I TRUST BA when they say they will not impact on my current T&Cs. Why? Well BA have provided two assurances to that effect:
a. The Monthly Travel Payment
b. The transfer of routes on an A, B, C order.
If we sign an agreement with BA to this effect, then being of a logical mind, I am confident that if BA were to renege on the agreement in the future, we could take them to task on it - after all, it would be in black and white. Miss M, you seem to be of a logical mind - which bit of a written agreement do you feel that BA could renege on?
So why do the strikers have such deep mistrust, not only of BA but everyone? Because BASSA have fed the members lies, lies, lies. Just take a look at one of the very first lies BASSA claimed and how it was refuted:
Lie #1: There is no need to make savings.
- BA offered BASSA to look at the books - they refused.
- BA got PWC to independantly audit the books - BASSA said PWC were corrupt.
- The Judge in the February court case ruled that BA were correct in their assessment to make savings.
So we now have HARD EVIDENCE that BA have not lied. If the strikers mistrust BA, then mistrust PWC, Miss M are you now saying that even the judiciary are involved in this anti-BASSA campaign??
Second of all, if BASSA mistrust BA so much then why on earth would they offer them a paycut??? If BA were as untrustworthy as BASSA claim, then BA could have taken the paycut, which was offered over a year ago now. If we had have taken it, BA could now be coming at us for more - New Fleet, complement changes, etc. Therefore the fact that BA did not accept the paycut, is evidence that they are to be trusted.
The final FACT to be relied on in all of this is, somewhat regrettably for us, WW has done everything that he said he would. He said he would impose if agreement was not reached - he did. He said the offers would get worse - they did. He said strikers would lose staff travel - they have. Can anyone state a fact that proves he is a liar?
This deep mistrust of anyone and everyone (pilots, non-strikers, volunteers, BA, PWC, the judiciary, etc) is the root cause of this strike. Miss M - why do you feel you have to choose between BA and BASSA? You work for BA and you PAY BASSA to act in your best interests. They have not. They have let you down - and the evidence is there IF you choose to accept it.
Like any other policy you take out, it's time to let this one go. They are currently ruining our once great community. We all need to regroup and stand up for ourselves before we get left with nothing. It's time to wipe the slate clean, forget about the lies that have been told to us, and READ THE FACTS FOR OURSELVES. I am very fearful of the consequences for our entire community, if we do not.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
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Swalesboy,
If the comment was a one-liner from a trainer or mentioned in induction, its a bit of a simplistic view of events to be honest.
Cargo revenue is similar to passenger in that there are different products and different yields depending on time of booking etc. The hold could be full to the brim of low yielding long-term booked freight which wouldn't create that much revenue, or could be a quarter full of Secure and Courier cargo which could make us four times as much. If there's any VAL cargo on the NOTOC, that's always a good sign.
Sorry if that's a bit of thread creap but thought it might be of some use as background.
Hi Flyer,
I agree with you one hundred percent. You have very eloquently in one relatively short post, captured the thoughts of most of us on here I feel.
I have regularly asked the question 'Please give me an example of where BA have lied to you as an employee?'.
I have never yet had even half an answer from anybody, inlcuding any disaffected pilots.
Well done. You've hit the nail on the head.
I hope the few BASSA supporters on here respond and try to explain their logic.
I can't believe the internal impass between Unite and BASSA can go on much longer? I'm surprised we've got this far into the week to be honest. Any of you BF or CF members got any insight to what's being said. Any more eloquent postings from the Branch Secretary?
If the comment was a one-liner from a trainer or mentioned in induction, its a bit of a simplistic view of events to be honest.
Cargo revenue is similar to passenger in that there are different products and different yields depending on time of booking etc. The hold could be full to the brim of low yielding long-term booked freight which wouldn't create that much revenue, or could be a quarter full of Secure and Courier cargo which could make us four times as much. If there's any VAL cargo on the NOTOC, that's always a good sign.
Sorry if that's a bit of thread creap but thought it might be of some use as background.
Hi Flyer,
I agree with you one hundred percent. You have very eloquently in one relatively short post, captured the thoughts of most of us on here I feel.
I have regularly asked the question 'Please give me an example of where BA have lied to you as an employee?'.
I have never yet had even half an answer from anybody, inlcuding any disaffected pilots.
Well done. You've hit the nail on the head.
I hope the few BASSA supporters on here respond and try to explain their logic.
I can't believe the internal impass between Unite and BASSA can go on much longer? I'm surprised we've got this far into the week to be honest. Any of you BF or CF members got any insight to what's being said. Any more eloquent postings from the Branch Secretary?
Last edited by BentleyH; 13th Apr 2010 at 09:44.
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Times newspaper today
An interesting article: Strike-hit British Airways only airline to award pay rises
There's also some interesting readers comments - to give a little balance.
What the "outside world" is reading - supply your own verdicts.
OC619
Previously unpublished figures from the Civil Aviation Authority revealed that BA’s 12,000 crew were paid an average of £31,400 last year. This was 5 per cent up on the £29,900 the year before.
By comparison, Virgin Atlantic’s crew had their pay frozen at £14,400. Crew at bmi had a 6.5 per cent average reduction to £17,200, while Monarch and Thomas Cook, the charter airlines, cut crew pay by about 13 per cent.
By comparison, Virgin Atlantic’s crew had their pay frozen at £14,400. Crew at bmi had a 6.5 per cent average reduction to £17,200, while Monarch and Thomas Cook, the charter airlines, cut crew pay by about 13 per cent.
There hasn't been any "pay rise" for BA's cabin crew. Basic pay and other payments have been frozen except for subsistence allowances, which rise or fall according to the exchange rate.
Due to the weak Pound, these allowances have risen in line with inflation. This is a disengenous and silly article.
Due to the weak Pound, these allowances have risen in line with inflation. This is a disengenous and silly article.
OC619
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BentleyH
Are they getting their wings on completion of their course? Funny as you otherwise have to work 6 months before you are given your wings. It's not even a guarantee as you need to pass your wings course. I guess BA doesn't want them to stick out but they will be easy to spot in the briefing or even on board as they won't have a clue what to do.
A contingency plan? So much for "fighting for survival". BA seems to be able to spend all this money on training crew. A typical example of WW not wanting to destroy our union representation.
HiFlyer14
Monthly Travel Payment sounds like a good idea as it would even out your income but I wouldn't touch it because it's nothing but a carrot. In a few years they will be coming for more or even decreasing the value of the MTP as more and more routes will be going over to New Fleet. Maybe you should look at your allowances to see how much would actually be protected, especially for those on EF where most of your earnings is meal allowances.
I know I work for BA but BASSA also makes sure that we have a good work environment and are looked after. Without union representation this company would be vile to work for. Why do I feel that I have to choose whom to trust? I have been here for 15 years and every management we have had has done nothing but lied to us. I'm not of the opinion that if a new CEO was brought into the company that everything would be good again. The relationship between management and cabin crew has been severely damaged and it will take a long time to recover.
Do you trust BA when they say that they will protect your current T&Cs by offering MTP and some control over which routes to go and stay? I found that very hard to believe. It's nothing but a carrot for the time being and trust me when I say that they will be coming back for more in some years.
Are they getting their wings on completion of their course? Funny as you otherwise have to work 6 months before you are given your wings. It's not even a guarantee as you need to pass your wings course. I guess BA doesn't want them to stick out but they will be easy to spot in the briefing or even on board as they won't have a clue what to do.
A contingency plan? So much for "fighting for survival". BA seems to be able to spend all this money on training crew. A typical example of WW not wanting to destroy our union representation.
HiFlyer14
Monthly Travel Payment sounds like a good idea as it would even out your income but I wouldn't touch it because it's nothing but a carrot. In a few years they will be coming for more or even decreasing the value of the MTP as more and more routes will be going over to New Fleet. Maybe you should look at your allowances to see how much would actually be protected, especially for those on EF where most of your earnings is meal allowances.
I know I work for BA but BASSA also makes sure that we have a good work environment and are looked after. Without union representation this company would be vile to work for. Why do I feel that I have to choose whom to trust? I have been here for 15 years and every management we have had has done nothing but lied to us. I'm not of the opinion that if a new CEO was brought into the company that everything would be good again. The relationship between management and cabin crew has been severely damaged and it will take a long time to recover.
Do you trust BA when they say that they will protect your current T&Cs by offering MTP and some control over which routes to go and stay? I found that very hard to believe. It's nothing but a carrot for the time being and trust me when I say that they will be coming back for more in some years.
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(Please Mods leave this, I knowwe're not supposed to discuss pilots but it is relevant!)
So MissM, would you accept a similar deal to the one the pilots operate, ie all "box" payments and other variables amalgamated into salary and a fixed hourly rate for allowances?
If not why? Have you met any pilots who are unhappy with their system?
So MissM, would you accept a similar deal to the one the pilots operate, ie all "box" payments and other variables amalgamated into salary and a fixed hourly rate for allowances?
If not why? Have you met any pilots who are unhappy with their system?