British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Andy
Believe me I've listened to all the arguments, on here, on TV in the newspapers and word of mouth. I've read the parts of the high court judgement cited on here and elsewhere in the media. Not only that I've seen it all before (groan!) in previous disputes. I am against a strike by the BA cabin crew over this imposition (or whatever they believe it to be about). My view is that the changes were reasonable, the legal action was misguided, the judgement correct and the vote for a strike, apart from being bad news for the employer, undermined by the fact that there is a volunteer workforce said to be ready to step up and a CEO seemingly ready to face it down. I do NOT agree with the apparent route taken by the union and it's members but that does not mean I want to see them crushed as a workforce. Wholesale changes are not always good ideas, unless certain football teams are to be considered and that is why small adjustments, considered reasonable to address the issues, by almost everybody else, should perhaps be accepted.
Ted
Ted
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Reading
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh Paddy come on,
By BA telling the truth about the financial situation the members have been driven into the arms of the union? Do you really believe that?
BA has stated time and again the financial state. The union reps declined to sign a confidentiality agreement to see even more details themselves.
The members have brought it apon themselves. The members are BASSA.
For the survival of the airline, a new Cabin Crew, with a new culture, is required
By BA telling the truth about the financial situation the members have been driven into the arms of the union? Do you really believe that?
BA has stated time and again the financial state. The union reps declined to sign a confidentiality agreement to see even more details themselves.
The members have brought it apon themselves. The members are BASSA.
For the survival of the airline, a new Cabin Crew, with a new culture, is required
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Basque Country
Age: 75
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
By BA telling the truth about the financial situation the members have been driven into the arms of the union?
I predict the meeting on Thursday will promise more of the same (after thanking the membership for their 'brilliant support' 'fantastic turn-out' which has forced WW back to the negotiating table where their 'hard-working reps' will thrash out a new deal which will consist of virtually all of BA's wish list but presented as a 'win' for BASSA)
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If cabin crew have voted to strike that is what they should do.Backing out at the last minute because they don't have the courage of their convictions is not the solution.The problem will raise it's ugly head again in the future.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Basque Country
Age: 75
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the survival of the airline, a new Cabin Crew, with a new culture, is required
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cultural Change
It's not about money, T&Cs or any of that now - it's about culture and the surgical removal of BASSA. The management 'talks' that are underway at the moment must not give one inch of ground to BASSA whereby they can 'spin' a victory - morally or otherwise - In fact the Company should already be demanding more concessions to pay for the lost bookings and the extra CC training.
The CC must realise that they have lost big time because of their Unions actions only when the festering sore of BASA is gone can the Company get back on course.
The CC must realise that they have lost big time because of their Unions actions only when the festering sore of BASA is gone can the Company get back on course.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: About to join the A1, UK
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A New CC Culture
PaddyMig...you are absolutely spot on with your assertions. When you mention 'Leadership', where do you believe that leadership, 'on the day' should come from? (genuine Q?, I am on no agenda here)
nurj
nurj
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Inclusive
The sad thing about this thread, is the utter contempt that many show towards their colleagues. You cannot hide behind the "most crew are great, its just the militant few" argument any more.
There have been two ballots, one of which, it has been known the possible outcome, could be a long stoppage and still the majority have voted in favour. It was a secret ballot, not a show of hands in a field. 7000+ cabin crew do not believe the management team now, or they fear for their future position/income. BA have not won hearts and minds, neither has this thread.
There have been two ballots, one of which, it has been known the possible outcome, could be a long stoppage and still the majority have voted in favour. It was a secret ballot, not a show of hands in a field. 7000+ cabin crew do not believe the management team now, or they fear for their future position/income. BA have not won hearts and minds, neither has this thread.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Basque Country
Age: 75
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hearts & Minds
Nurjio & Litebulbs
I think we are talking about the same point here.
Crew will tell you that they know it is going to be a good trip from as soon as they walk into the briefing room. SLF (passengers) say they same from the moment they board the a/c. If the SCCM is motivated, animated, interested, well-informed, hard-working and inspirational (and believe me, many of them are) then their crews will follow suit. The hearts and minds of the main crew can only be won through the actions of their leadership whilst they are at work ie on an aeroplane. Cabin crew management on the ground is seen as 'the office', somewhere you go when you are in trouble or need something and only when you are 'protected' by your union reps. So, it's all down to the SCCM on board.
I think we are talking about the same point here.
Crew will tell you that they know it is going to be a good trip from as soon as they walk into the briefing room. SLF (passengers) say they same from the moment they board the a/c. If the SCCM is motivated, animated, interested, well-informed, hard-working and inspirational (and believe me, many of them are) then their crews will follow suit. The hearts and minds of the main crew can only be won through the actions of their leadership whilst they are at work ie on an aeroplane. Cabin crew management on the ground is seen as 'the office', somewhere you go when you are in trouble or need something and only when you are 'protected' by your union reps. So, it's all down to the SCCM on board.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LiteBulbs
BA have not won hearts and minds, neither has this thread.
And my respect for CC as a community has crashed as a result. Even today on LBC I had to listen to a CC member explaining all about the hundred + million savings that they offered, even Unite have stopped banging on about that mistruth.
If CC cant or wont operate on anything other than recieved wisdom and lack the ability to understand the facts, never mind the different views, then quite frankly I suggest they strike and strike hard.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Litebulbs:
Regarding this comment:
Nor has BASSA won the "hearts and minds" of BA, the public, or other unions.
As for this thread, I don't view it's purpose to be to win "hearts and minds", I view it as an interesting arena to discuss the issues involved in the present situation between BASSA/Unite, its members and BA.
I feel no "contempt" for Cabin Crew as a whole...though I will admit to feeling a bit of disdain for those who can't reasonably debate the issues without going into a denial of reality.
Regarding this comment:
BA have not won hearts and minds, neither has this thread.
As for this thread, I don't view it's purpose to be to win "hearts and minds", I view it as an interesting arena to discuss the issues involved in the present situation between BASSA/Unite, its members and BA.
I feel no "contempt" for Cabin Crew as a whole...though I will admit to feeling a bit of disdain for those who can't reasonably debate the issues without going into a denial of reality.
An alternative view
I would like to put an alternative view to many on this thread. I've been a "student" of employee relations for 35 years. Some times, I've been an active participant - dating from merseyside in the mid-70s.
Virtually no ballot of members about strike action has yielded the numbers that BA CC have given to their leaders. Even in the Thatcher/Scargill strike, there wasn't actually a vote - Scargill refused to have one as he was worried that he might not "win" the vote.
The vote for Industrial action by BA CC can therefore be seen as unprecedented - one of the biggest votes ever for Industrial Action. I've read all the posters attempts to re-write the numbers, but 80% in favour on an 80% turnover is very solid support.
Given that background, and bearing in mind all the common-sense stuff written on this thread - is it too much of an alternative view to suggest that the strike might well be "solid" - and potentially successful?
I'm not sure I believe it, but that is the way the numbers are directing us. In which case, all I can see ahead is a very powerful dispute, right before an election.
In very powerful disputes, real power begins to exercise itself. It will be interesting to watch the power dynamics play out - especially when the Government join in, and especially considering the internal power plays within Unite.. How long before we see Mandy as the peace-maker?
Also, Unite's ability to actually run a ballot will not have improved much - the voting figures will still include hundreds of people who will not be asked to take any Industrial action. (TU monumental cock-ups with record keeping have not changed much in my 35 years knowledge of ER). The Courts might still have a say in this possible strike.
However, I bet that BA will not take the Court route this time. They need to fight Bassa/Unite on the power basis - and win, and win well.
My best wishes to those BA staff who want to survive, and who want their pension fund to survive.
Virtually no ballot of members about strike action has yielded the numbers that BA CC have given to their leaders. Even in the Thatcher/Scargill strike, there wasn't actually a vote - Scargill refused to have one as he was worried that he might not "win" the vote.
The vote for Industrial action by BA CC can therefore be seen as unprecedented - one of the biggest votes ever for Industrial Action. I've read all the posters attempts to re-write the numbers, but 80% in favour on an 80% turnover is very solid support.
Given that background, and bearing in mind all the common-sense stuff written on this thread - is it too much of an alternative view to suggest that the strike might well be "solid" - and potentially successful?
I'm not sure I believe it, but that is the way the numbers are directing us. In which case, all I can see ahead is a very powerful dispute, right before an election.
In very powerful disputes, real power begins to exercise itself. It will be interesting to watch the power dynamics play out - especially when the Government join in, and especially considering the internal power plays within Unite.. How long before we see Mandy as the peace-maker?
Also, Unite's ability to actually run a ballot will not have improved much - the voting figures will still include hundreds of people who will not be asked to take any Industrial action. (TU monumental cock-ups with record keeping have not changed much in my 35 years knowledge of ER). The Courts might still have a say in this possible strike.
However, I bet that BA will not take the Court route this time. They need to fight Bassa/Unite on the power basis - and win, and win well.
My best wishes to those BA staff who want to survive, and who want their pension fund to survive.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Diplome
Pprune should be used as a tool along with any other mechanism to try and stop this strike. OK, it may only have a tiny influence, but with the people and ideas on here, it could lead to the "butterfly effect".
Going way back to the initial savings requested of IFCE, was that not calculated on a potential cumulative loss of £1b? BA has returned to a small operating profit and the projected loss is around £600m. Should the saving that was required be reduced?
Going way back to the initial savings requested of IFCE, was that not calculated on a potential cumulative loss of £1b? BA has returned to a small operating profit and the projected loss is around £600m. Should the saving that was required be reduced?
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: brighton
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dig themselves out
Clearly BASSA have dug themselves into a hole here.
How they extrecate themselves for that is going to be difficult.
One thing is clear the new fleet will come about be it stand alone or for EVERYBODY!!!
The best BASSA can do imho is somehow improve on the safeguards for current crew that BF proposed. Any ideas that don`t incur extra costs welcome.
Improve too the new disruption agreement to be as specific as possible. BA will not allow it to be a situation whereby union agreement is needded before its` implemation though
Get BA to allow SFLGW crew the opportunity to transfer to the new fleet.
Allow current longhaul LHR crew to transfer to the new fleet to attain promotion by letting them transfer on their current basic salaries plus increments but within the new fleet agreement.
As far as BA shifting on any points amybe they don`t have to but if they can be seen to move and therefore appear reasonable then the bad blood created will be forgotten.
If not then there is no point/future for BASSA or any of the `LHR `legacy` crew and BA will simply offer them the new contract or leave. Why should BA continue to employ as disenfranchised and dissillusioned workforce? I`m sure they have considered all of this in their planning.
I notice also the adverts for all the other airlines have started to appear on tv again just as they did pre xmas. No coincidence there!
Litebulbs quote you
``Going way back to the initial savings requested of IFCE, was that not calculated on a potential cumulative loss of £1b? BA has returned to a small operating profit and the projected loss is around £600m. Should the saving that was required be reduced?`
Clutching at straws there mate!
All independant observers and BA know that the business model of the `legacy` carriers has to change permanently so there will be no adjustment of the figures/needs from BA `s side.
Don`t forget there is still the pensions defecit to service and new aircraft to buy pretty soon.
How they extrecate themselves for that is going to be difficult.
One thing is clear the new fleet will come about be it stand alone or for EVERYBODY!!!
The best BASSA can do imho is somehow improve on the safeguards for current crew that BF proposed. Any ideas that don`t incur extra costs welcome.
Improve too the new disruption agreement to be as specific as possible. BA will not allow it to be a situation whereby union agreement is needded before its` implemation though
Get BA to allow SFLGW crew the opportunity to transfer to the new fleet.
Allow current longhaul LHR crew to transfer to the new fleet to attain promotion by letting them transfer on their current basic salaries plus increments but within the new fleet agreement.
As far as BA shifting on any points amybe they don`t have to but if they can be seen to move and therefore appear reasonable then the bad blood created will be forgotten.
If not then there is no point/future for BASSA or any of the `LHR `legacy` crew and BA will simply offer them the new contract or leave. Why should BA continue to employ as disenfranchised and dissillusioned workforce? I`m sure they have considered all of this in their planning.
I notice also the adverts for all the other airlines have started to appear on tv again just as they did pre xmas. No coincidence there!
Litebulbs quote you
``Going way back to the initial savings requested of IFCE, was that not calculated on a potential cumulative loss of £1b? BA has returned to a small operating profit and the projected loss is around £600m. Should the saving that was required be reduced?`
Clutching at straws there mate!
All independant observers and BA know that the business model of the `legacy` carriers has to change permanently so there will be no adjustment of the figures/needs from BA `s side.
Don`t forget there is still the pensions defecit to service and new aircraft to buy pretty soon.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Litebulbs:
Unfortunately, I believe the answer by BA is going to be "No" regarding any reduction in the savings targets.
I could be wrong, and please feel free to correct me, but I believe part of the reason for any "return to profitability" included savings from the Crew Reduction. Walsh has already stated that its implementation has been successful, voluntary staff reduction has already occurred. I can't see that being reversed.
Also, if BA lets Cabin Crew off the hook for savings then management risks alienating all of those divisions who have, in good faith, negotiated amendments to produce savings for the company.
Also, one quarter does not a healthy airline make...especially when they are still dealing with a significant pension underfund.
BASSA is in the difficult position right now on trying to negotiate a win on the basis of an imposition that was really not worth the reaction the unions gave it. It presents a difficulty for both parties. Perhaps on those few flights where they are working two down its reduced to one...I don't know. BA doesn't have much "give" area in this situation but BASSA desperately needs something so that they don't go back to their membership with a great big "Oh never mind".
Unfortunately, I believe the answer by BA is going to be "No" regarding any reduction in the savings targets.
I could be wrong, and please feel free to correct me, but I believe part of the reason for any "return to profitability" included savings from the Crew Reduction. Walsh has already stated that its implementation has been successful, voluntary staff reduction has already occurred. I can't see that being reversed.
Also, if BA lets Cabin Crew off the hook for savings then management risks alienating all of those divisions who have, in good faith, negotiated amendments to produce savings for the company.
Also, one quarter does not a healthy airline make...especially when they are still dealing with a significant pension underfund.
BASSA is in the difficult position right now on trying to negotiate a win on the basis of an imposition that was really not worth the reaction the unions gave it. It presents a difficulty for both parties. Perhaps on those few flights where they are working two down its reduced to one...I don't know. BA doesn't have much "give" area in this situation but BASSA desperately needs something so that they don't go back to their membership with a great big "Oh never mind".
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Diplome
It should not be seen as letting the cabin crew "off the hook". If you use this argument, then it goes back to the discussions many threads ago about union busting and how the economic downturn was used to realign cabin crew renumeration to market rate and removing BASSA's power too.
As the Judge said, (well it is what I believe the Judge said), if the financial situation was different, then maybe this result could have been. If BA return to multi million profit and the average crew wage has reduced, due to some sort of new deal, then I would be trying to protect against that now.
As the Judge said, (well it is what I believe the Judge said), if the financial situation was different, then maybe this result could have been. If BA return to multi million profit and the average crew wage has reduced, due to some sort of new deal, then I would be trying to protect against that now.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: up up up
Posts: 384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA is in dire financial problems now due to years of mismanagement and poor financial decisions, not cabin crew Ts and Cs.
BA can slash cabin crew salaries and they'll still be losing millions a year and have billions of pounds pension deficit. That's when we'll see who's actually running BA into the ground. The poor management not BASSA or the cabin crew.
It's BA's lack of direction as it veers between full service and low cost never really satisfying anyone and bad management decisions like price fixing and canceling too many flights and now having the smallest economy long haul seat pitch that have forced customers away in their thousands. Why would anyone fly BA economy long haul when everyone else, even the charter airlines are providing loads more legroom and cheaper flights.
How much losses will BA managers be responsible for over the next two years, a billion pounds? Do people honestly think BASSA or the cabin crew are responsible for such a dire financial situation?
BA can slash cabin crew salaries and they'll still be losing millions a year and have billions of pounds pension deficit. That's when we'll see who's actually running BA into the ground. The poor management not BASSA or the cabin crew.
It's BA's lack of direction as it veers between full service and low cost never really satisfying anyone and bad management decisions like price fixing and canceling too many flights and now having the smallest economy long haul seat pitch that have forced customers away in their thousands. Why would anyone fly BA economy long haul when everyone else, even the charter airlines are providing loads more legroom and cheaper flights.
How much losses will BA managers be responsible for over the next two years, a billion pounds? Do people honestly think BASSA or the cabin crew are responsible for such a dire financial situation?
buttons,
yup. A lot of the loss can be blamed directly on BA CC voting patterns.
BA CC voting patterns will cost BA at least UKP300m.
Just add up the passengers that have gone elsewhere , and the cost to BA of filling up the seats with cheap deals. Simples
yup. A lot of the loss can be blamed directly on BA CC voting patterns.
BA CC voting patterns will cost BA at least UKP300m.
Just add up the passengers that have gone elsewhere , and the cost to BA of filling up the seats with cheap deals. Simples
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Litebulbs:
I may be inclined to agree with you if the imposition put in place was unreasonable, but it isn't. It works.
The changes offered by BA simply have not been that out of whack given the present situation, which is why BASSA finds itself so isolated right now.
If a union gets "busted" over this fiasco it will be due to the union's failure to professionally and competently fulfill its mission. BASSA have handed issue after issue to BA, wrapped in great big bows.
Perhaps someone will pull a rabbit out of a hat regarding negotiating this mess because if it goes to strike BASSA will come out of it weakened. Amazing to watch this.
I may be inclined to agree with you if the imposition put in place was unreasonable, but it isn't. It works.
The changes offered by BA simply have not been that out of whack given the present situation, which is why BASSA finds itself so isolated right now.
If a union gets "busted" over this fiasco it will be due to the union's failure to professionally and competently fulfill its mission. BASSA have handed issue after issue to BA, wrapped in great big bows.
Perhaps someone will pull a rabbit out of a hat regarding negotiating this mess because if it goes to strike BASSA will come out of it weakened. Amazing to watch this.