British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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is there any provisions made for aircraft positioning? Asking in so much that at any time only about a third of the LHR fleet is actually at LHR. I assume that arrangements have been m,ade to put aircraft elsewhere considering lack of space at LHR
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Volunteering for non crew work..
I know many of them are genuinely supporting BA and have principles, but I wonder if so many people would have volunteered if it wasn't CC going on strike, but ramp drivers or check-in staff.
In terms of the would they volunteer for ramp or checkin, well, we do, regularly! Everytime there is disruption, huge numbers of staff go over to T5/T3, and shift bags/ floor walk. Not doing actual check-in, or ramp vehicles its true, but thats is because of the training needed to do those aspects of the job, and that there hasnt (recently!) been disruption far enough anticipated to make that duratin of training possible or necessary.
Pre T5 opening, they looked for volunteers to help move ramp equipment over night to T5, and trained up people to drive the things. They got waaay more volunteers than they needed.
So, that is a long answer to say yes! I genuinely DO think people would volunteer to back BA if the role was something other than CC.
I wonder if so many people would have volunteered if it wasn't CC going on strike, but ramp drivers or check-in staff.
Other staff drove the pushback and baggage tractors and loaded luggage.
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SweetC
Can someone clarify the percentage of votes for strike?
I think, and putting it simplistically 81% of Unite members who voted have voted for a strike, which means that 61% of cabin crew in total voted for a strike.
The press report the 81 figure as that was the ballot in question and they are
right to report it that way, really.
Internally you can take the view that people that were not Unite members, some quite recently leaving as a result of the previous ballot, have in fact voted NO by their lack of membership, sort of.
You can also take the view that those that abstained are also voting NO by virtue of the fact that they seem not to care either way, sort of.
You can read the figures anyway you like but the fact is that a majority of CC have voted to go on strike (which I hope they now do rather than hide behind sickness or other guff).
As far as the press is concerned, bah, where do I start? I don’t care how they present the figures myself, I’m waiting for one of them to take Unite to task on the judge’s verdict and the fact that they haven’t been talking to BA, indeed the unions couldn’t even talk to each other.
I am getting sick of seeing Len saying BA need to negotiate without being called out on it.
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WASCREW
I don't think non-strikers will be immune from contract changes.
We have allowed ourselves to have been led down BASSA's fairytale pathway to oblivion.
I suspect that when strike dates have been announced BA will issue a 90 day SOSR notice, and introduce draconian chnages. If you want to accept these new changes, you come to work (but you keep staff travel), if you dont, you stay at home on strike.
If BA fails to change ALL cabin crew T's and C's, there is a risk that 100 die-hards stay at home, 13000 cabin crew come to work on their existing contract and T's and C's, and effectively nothing will have changed.
I don't think non-strikers will be immune from contract changes.
We have allowed ourselves to have been led down BASSA's fairytale pathway to oblivion.
I suspect that when strike dates have been announced BA will issue a 90 day SOSR notice, and introduce draconian chnages. If you want to accept these new changes, you come to work (but you keep staff travel), if you dont, you stay at home on strike.
If BA fails to change ALL cabin crew T's and C's, there is a risk that 100 die-hards stay at home, 13000 cabin crew come to work on their existing contract and T's and C's, and effectively nothing will have changed.
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Snas
Especially when it is BASSA themselves who have been refusing to negotiate on a numerous occassions.
I am sick to death of Len too - I can't stand him.
I am getting sick of seeing Len saying BA need to negotiate without being called out on it.
I am sick to death of Len too - I can't stand him.
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I class myself as a member of Joe public and since there has been a mass of information in the public domain about this dispute it looks to me thus:
Seems like every work area at BA has been asked for and has taken some sort of hit in being asked to contribute to very neccessary cost savings.
In their position, I would not be happy if I had made a sacrafice but one area remained untouched.
Given large changes elsewhere for many workers in their respective employments inside and outside BA, it appears the CC are not being asked to change very much as their part in this contribution.
Or are thet kicking off about something they can't strike about without being injucted and that's the real problem?
If so, seems like they had the chance to negotiate that out but decided 'no negotiation'. Hence company had to do something. Too much hinging on it all to do nothing.
Company wants to survive as a business and rest of workforce wants continued employemt hence company enacting plans to operate through a dispute with the help of volunteers and non strikers.
High court judge says BA acted reasonably and I'm blowed if I can understand what's going on now if the imposition of these changes was what the court case and ballot was about (or have I got this wrong?).
Had some degree of trouble reconciling what the union guy on Sky TV was saying yesterday with everything I've read etc previously about the situation (my own perception though). Before anyone jumps down my throat about not beleiving what you read in the media. As a member of Joe Public, I read and if interested enough, I form a view...simple.
This is a very dangerous game of brinksmanship. I hope it does not drag on for months and months and worse, that that's actually a strategy to force agreement. That would be utter madness!
Happy to stand corrected if my perceptions are substantially wrong.
Regards,
Ted
Seems like every work area at BA has been asked for and has taken some sort of hit in being asked to contribute to very neccessary cost savings.
In their position, I would not be happy if I had made a sacrafice but one area remained untouched.
Given large changes elsewhere for many workers in their respective employments inside and outside BA, it appears the CC are not being asked to change very much as their part in this contribution.
Or are thet kicking off about something they can't strike about without being injucted and that's the real problem?
If so, seems like they had the chance to negotiate that out but decided 'no negotiation'. Hence company had to do something. Too much hinging on it all to do nothing.
Company wants to survive as a business and rest of workforce wants continued employemt hence company enacting plans to operate through a dispute with the help of volunteers and non strikers.
High court judge says BA acted reasonably and I'm blowed if I can understand what's going on now if the imposition of these changes was what the court case and ballot was about (or have I got this wrong?).
Had some degree of trouble reconciling what the union guy on Sky TV was saying yesterday with everything I've read etc previously about the situation (my own perception though). Before anyone jumps down my throat about not beleiving what you read in the media. As a member of Joe Public, I read and if interested enough, I form a view...simple.
This is a very dangerous game of brinksmanship. I hope it does not drag on for months and months and worse, that that's actually a strategy to force agreement. That would be utter madness!
Happy to stand corrected if my perceptions are substantially wrong.
Regards,
Ted
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You don't know what you have got until it has gone.
I support strong, informed and united representation of a workforce when dealing with an employer. The prospect of two unions representing Cabin Crew was bad but to inject a third in the form of the PCCC is going to be very difficult to implement effectively and may lead to fragmented representation.
Indeed, collective bargaining gets you just that, one result for everyone and currently BASSA will take everyone down whichever road they choose to take. All Cabin Crew will now be affected probably years before it would have happened organically. Given that Kempton Park will be BASSA members only and pro-strike then I feel the die is cast and the balance of the cabin crew workforce have now lost their voice.
British Airways has weathered many storms in its recent history:
terrorism, record oil prices, Chernobyl, foot & mouth disease*, SARS, Gulf Wars, avian flu, 9/11, swine flu, low cost carriers, Terminal 5 opening, increased global competition, dirty tricks episode, price fixing to list but a few.
Some factors being external and beyond the control of the company, some internal and perhaps not our finest hour. It has bounced back and I am absolutely confident that it will weather this particular storm in the very positive way that it has handled other difficulties.
Despite the above trading difficulties, British Airways have ALWAYS put the money in the bank of it’s employees at the end of every month, has done for the last 40 years to my certain knowledge. It honours and usually exceeds virtually every directive relating to the workplace issued by the UK and European Governments covering such items as sickness, maternity, paternal leave, diversity issues, the list is endless.
……and yet over 7400+ people in just one particular group feel that their company is being totally unreasonable?
This is presumably the 7400+ people that feel that a significant spike in the crew sickness levels during Wimbledon, Ascot, Henley, Gay Pride Marches, Christmas, Bank Holidays etc is reasonable. That fact cannot be disputed.
Given that you don’t know what you have got until it has gone, a question to the 7400+ Yes voters:
“Is working for British Airways so bad that you want to risk finding out what you once had?”
*Our US cousins thought it to be a real problem... "ill_cow_duh" sounded like a threat they had heard of somewhere before..
Indeed, collective bargaining gets you just that, one result for everyone and currently BASSA will take everyone down whichever road they choose to take. All Cabin Crew will now be affected probably years before it would have happened organically. Given that Kempton Park will be BASSA members only and pro-strike then I feel the die is cast and the balance of the cabin crew workforce have now lost their voice.
British Airways has weathered many storms in its recent history:
terrorism, record oil prices, Chernobyl, foot & mouth disease*, SARS, Gulf Wars, avian flu, 9/11, swine flu, low cost carriers, Terminal 5 opening, increased global competition, dirty tricks episode, price fixing to list but a few.
Some factors being external and beyond the control of the company, some internal and perhaps not our finest hour. It has bounced back and I am absolutely confident that it will weather this particular storm in the very positive way that it has handled other difficulties.
Despite the above trading difficulties, British Airways have ALWAYS put the money in the bank of it’s employees at the end of every month, has done for the last 40 years to my certain knowledge. It honours and usually exceeds virtually every directive relating to the workplace issued by the UK and European Governments covering such items as sickness, maternity, paternal leave, diversity issues, the list is endless.
……and yet over 7400+ people in just one particular group feel that their company is being totally unreasonable?
This is presumably the 7400+ people that feel that a significant spike in the crew sickness levels during Wimbledon, Ascot, Henley, Gay Pride Marches, Christmas, Bank Holidays etc is reasonable. That fact cannot be disputed.
Given that you don’t know what you have got until it has gone, a question to the 7400+ Yes voters:
“Is working for British Airways so bad that you want to risk finding out what you once had?”
*Our US cousins thought it to be a real problem... "ill_cow_duh" sounded like a threat they had heard of somewhere before..
Last edited by Rover90; 23rd Feb 2010 at 10:28. Reason: Who could forget T5
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teddybear44
It may seem to be the same issue but the court case and the ballot are two different issues.
The court case was about whether BA breached any of the employee's contracts.
The ballot - and the possible coming strike - is about the principle of BA imposing changes without consulation which BASSA and many members feel there hasn't been. To them it doesn't matter that the High Court ruled in favour for BA - it's the simple reason for not asking BASSA.
High court judge says BA acted reasonably and I'm blowed if I can understand what's going on now if the imposition of these changes was what the court case and ballot was about (or have I got this wrong?).
The court case was about whether BA breached any of the employee's contracts.
The ballot - and the possible coming strike - is about the principle of BA imposing changes without consulation which BASSA and many members feel there hasn't been. To them it doesn't matter that the High Court ruled in favour for BA - it's the simple reason for not asking BASSA.
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It's funny reading all the BA middle managers signing up pretending to be passengers and sending messages of support to WW. Any comments regarding WW having the crew where he wants them are quite frankly fantasy.
Anyone thinking WW is sitting back chuffed with the news that thousands of his cabin crew feel the need to go on strike needs their brain examined.
These are the facts WW is facing.
BA is in an absolutely dire situation. After the disaster T5 opening and being caught price fixing. BA are now actually pleased to have only reported £50 MILLION losses for the last quarter. BA have a £3.7 BILLION pension deficit. BA bookings were already hugely down before the strike was announced.
And now he has thousands, yes thousands of cabin crew voting to not turn up to work because they are so unhappy with their lot. These crew are not militant Union clones but real people who have decided that they are so unhappy with their management and recent negotiations (or lack of) have been so unproductive that they now are left with the only option but to go on strike.
Yes I'm sure he's celebrating right now.
Anyone thinking WW is sitting back chuffed with the news that thousands of his cabin crew feel the need to go on strike needs their brain examined.
These are the facts WW is facing.
BA is in an absolutely dire situation. After the disaster T5 opening and being caught price fixing. BA are now actually pleased to have only reported £50 MILLION losses for the last quarter. BA have a £3.7 BILLION pension deficit. BA bookings were already hugely down before the strike was announced.
And now he has thousands, yes thousands of cabin crew voting to not turn up to work because they are so unhappy with their lot. These crew are not militant Union clones but real people who have decided that they are so unhappy with their management and recent negotiations (or lack of) have been so unproductive that they now are left with the only option but to go on strike.
Yes I'm sure he's celebrating right now.
Last edited by whatdoesthisbuttondo; 23rd Feb 2010 at 10:43.
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BASSA vs Amicus
I have read through the threads and searched but cannot find any explanation for the 'heated argument' as mentioned by the Judge in his findings. It seems to be from this point on that negotiations broke down so it must have been (must it?) something pretty important. Can anyone shed any light on what it was they were squabbling about?
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CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
Speaking as an engineer,I am appalled by your perception of your status as aviation "professionals".Get over yourselves and accept some of the pain that EVERYONE else in the company has had to accept to ensure our survival! (This is my personal opinion ).
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The ballot - and the possible coming strike - is about the principle of BA imposing changes without consultation which BASSA and many members feel there hasn't been. To them it doesn't matter that the High Court ruled in favour for BA - it's the simple reason for not asking BASSA.
BASSA have failed to consider the facts, refused to consider the economy, blinded themselves to reality and now they expect that BA goes back to the negotiating table with a clean sheet of paper.
Sorry but I fail to see why, after having their changes declared non contractual and thus legal and appropriate, BA should return for more meaningless negotiation? BASSA have not 'not' had enough negotiating time, they have just squandered what they had and are now trying to cover up the mess.
BASSA have successfully in the past negotiated through the 'no' mentality backed up with the threat of crippling strikes. In the past the BA management acquiesced thus leading BASSA to believe that this time would be no different. Sadly they were mistaken.
Cabin crew deserve and need adequate representation. Sadly that is something they are sadly lacking in BASSA.
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And now he has thousands, yes thousands of cabin crew voting to not turn up to work because they are so unhappy with their lot.
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Nov/Dec 09 "They'll never vote for a strike!"
Jan/Feb 10 "They'll never vote for a strike again!"
Feb/Mar 10 "They'll never actually go on strike!"
Of course they are going to go on strike. Thousands of them.
Jan/Feb 10 "They'll never vote for a strike again!"
Feb/Mar 10 "They'll never actually go on strike!"
Of course they are going to go on strike. Thousands of them.
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Reality check
Guys, I understand the angst felt everywhere, these are really tough times for all. I stopped flying BA some 10 years ago, due mainly to the hell that was Heathrow, the hell that was BA cancellations, and vowed never to go near the company again. I flew last week to LAX, as passenger, and would like to say the journey via T5, and back was 100% satisfactory. The CSD and flight crew really appeared to go all out to ensure that QUALITY and SERVICE was paramount. All of this achieved at a low ticket price. Everyone from the bottom up requires to negotiate and compromise to save this organisation. Reality has to bite, and return it to some form of profitability. This has to be number 1 priority FOR ALL.
Striking/threats of strike/pre conditions on both sides must be averted at all costs, otherwise ...................
I sincerely hope that all concened can get together to resolve the many issues that appear to be on the table. Good luck.
Striking/threats of strike/pre conditions on both sides must be averted at all costs, otherwise ...................
I sincerely hope that all concened can get together to resolve the many issues that appear to be on the table. Good luck.