British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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I don't have any problems I just have my own opinion. A strike will always be emotive as it naturally causes an unwanted spilt.
My main argument here is that 99% of the posts have nothing to do with the merits of the problem which got us to this point. Whether BA goes under or not is mere speculation and probably the only person who truley knows that is WW.
Whether staff travel will be permanently removed is mere speculation as the law is very grey covering that.
I would suggest that you do not get massive balloted support for a strike without good reason and then not once but twice. So you can rant on about this and that, I would suggest that the above tells a different story.
I would like to see the real issues that brought this situation to a head discussed and not the media nonsense.
So that would mean in my utopia, no discussion about ba going under or staff travel or disruption to pax or my job possibilities after ba go under etc. etc.
I would like to discuss why over 80% of the union feel that a strike is warranted.
My main argument here is that 99% of the posts have nothing to do with the merits of the problem which got us to this point. Whether BA goes under or not is mere speculation and probably the only person who truley knows that is WW.
Whether staff travel will be permanently removed is mere speculation as the law is very grey covering that.
I would suggest that you do not get massive balloted support for a strike without good reason and then not once but twice. So you can rant on about this and that, I would suggest that the above tells a different story.
I would like to see the real issues that brought this situation to a head discussed and not the media nonsense.
So that would mean in my utopia, no discussion about ba going under or staff travel or disruption to pax or my job possibilities after ba go under etc. etc.
I would like to discuss why over 80% of the union feel that a strike is warranted.
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I would like to discuss why over 80% of the union feel that a strike is warranted.
Does that not give you pause for thought? It should!
It's not just Gordon Brown getting his facts mixed up. Crew last week had been led to believe by their union that other work groups, who shall remain nameless, had accepted a temporary pay-cut. They were shocked, to say the least, to learn that other groups had accepted permanent cuts to pay and allowances with an increase in productivity.
If you are advocating that the quicker EVERYBODY in this industry gets down to the t&c and working practices levels of Ryanair ... then that may be good news for pax, but why should CC care about them?
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1. Bassa power struggle.
2. Imposition of working one down, bringing LHR in line with LGW.
3. CSD's unhappy at having to work the Cabin alongside CC's.
4. Refusal by BA to reinstate those '38' suspended for apparent transgression of BA rules.
5. Wishing to give Mr. Walsh a 'bloody nose'
2. Imposition of working one down, bringing LHR in line with LGW.
3. CSD's unhappy at having to work the Cabin alongside CC's.
4. Refusal by BA to reinstate those '38' suspended for apparent transgression of BA rules.
5. Wishing to give Mr. Walsh a 'bloody nose'
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[QUOTE]Or alternatively, discuss why it is that every other department / discipline in BA is against the CC industrial action, to the extent of volunteering in their thousands to support BA through the strike period. That there is no public support for the action, and that even the Labour Gov. which is in hock to the union has finally come out with public statements against a strike./QUOTE]
There is no point in discussing that as it takes us straight back to speculating. I can tell you that even within BA other departments are discussing the myths of the situation rather than the facts. That says a lot too.
I do not dispute that BASSA are losing or maybe even already lost the PR war but that doesn't mean their basis for striking is flawed.
I must also add that the vast majority of cabin crew are excellent at their job and to try and score cheap points about claiming they do not care about pax is ridiculous. Strikes are emotive, get over that fact and discuss the real issues.
There is no point in discussing that as it takes us straight back to speculating. I can tell you that even within BA other departments are discussing the myths of the situation rather than the facts. That says a lot too.
I do not dispute that BASSA are losing or maybe even already lost the PR war but that doesn't mean their basis for striking is flawed.
I must also add that the vast majority of cabin crew are excellent at their job and to try and score cheap points about claiming they do not care about pax is ridiculous. Strikes are emotive, get over that fact and discuss the real issues.
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If you are advocating that the quicker EVERYBODY in this industry gets down to the t&c and working practices levels of Ryanair
... then that may be good news for pax, but why should CC care about them?
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I would like to discuss why over 80% of the union feel that a strike is warranted.
BASSA have turned this from a small change in cabin crew numbers that had very little effect on anybody other than the CSD, and made it into a war that (if the cabin crew lose) may well result in seismic changes to their whole way of life.
Most crew that I have flown with just wish they could wind the clock back to last summer...
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[QUOTE]Most crew that I have flown with just wish they could wind the clock back to last summer...[QUOTE]
This doesn't really hold up does it. There have been 2 ballots on the same issue.
If above were true they would have voted no
This doesn't really hold up does it. There have been 2 ballots on the same issue.
If above were true they would have voted no
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pvmw
You don't appear to have considered that you are only reading ONE side of the debate; this may be a Cabin Crew forum in name but in truth there are very few CC who will come anywhere near it and those that have, have quickly been driven away by some of the unnecessary vitriolic outbursts like the one quoted by Vld1977. Like VLD1977, I struggle to imagine what we collectively or individually could have done to that individual to inspire that level of hatred! The media sensationalise all IA as it makes for a better story and any strike in a service industry is bound to affect the customers. If you knew any CC, and spoke to them, you would be better equiped to judge us.
Sure, the CC unions are guilty of terrible handling of the problem but there are issues here that we are quite right to feel concerned about. The introduction of a lower paid, cheap workforce doing your job alongside you would give any right minded person cause for concern. Striking, though I disagree with this one, is a legitimate IA tool and one which is being resorted to all over the EU so it can not be that hard to wonder why 80% of my colleagues in BASSA feel so strongly about it. We are not evil holiday wreckers, we are men and women trying to earn a reasonable living to support our families and pay our mortgages. So to all the posters from outside BA, leave the hatred aside and debate the issues with an open mind, you may learn something.
on this forum and in the press since day 1 of this dispute. Everything I read tells me that the CC are in the wrong
Sure, the CC unions are guilty of terrible handling of the problem but there are issues here that we are quite right to feel concerned about. The introduction of a lower paid, cheap workforce doing your job alongside you would give any right minded person cause for concern. Striking, though I disagree with this one, is a legitimate IA tool and one which is being resorted to all over the EU so it can not be that hard to wonder why 80% of my colleagues in BASSA feel so strongly about it. We are not evil holiday wreckers, we are men and women trying to earn a reasonable living to support our families and pay our mortgages. So to all the posters from outside BA, leave the hatred aside and debate the issues with an open mind, you may learn something.
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Safety Concerns wrote:
Safety, I guess from the tone of your post that we're both colleagues working for the same outfit. The volume and veracity of objections on this forum to the BASSA strike is not because of the reason for the strike (the real reason, not the stated reason) but because of the way in which BASSA has handled itself. Change is inevitable for this company not because of WW who BASSA have vilified so much but because of people like MOL, SHI et al.
The reason so many of us other colleague (inc CC) are exasperated by BASSA's actions is that they have been intransigent to reasoned discussion and change of any kind for an extended period of time (BASSA attitude: the answer is NO what's the question) where as every other group within BA has at least listened to what the company had to say even if it was unpalatable.
BASSA had a very strong mandate from its members and could have NEGOTIATED a very comfortable and mutually agreeable compromise whereby flexibility was offered in exchange for long term guarantees on net salary/allowances. But no, they SQUANDERED their position, burnt their bridges to the point where even the TUC became disturbed at the internal power struggles between factions - the TUC!
I love working with my CC colleagues, they're fun, professional, well trained and committed to the people who pay our salaries (passengers). However like many others in the company I think they could work more flexibly (to no financial loss) and not be starved out of the company. Yet BASSA has seriously misguided them, misinformed them and is about to seriously let them down because some jet-lagged loon from LA has a personality problem.
I'm surprised that even now at this late hour you are not questioning why NO other colleague group see's the situation as you do. Not inside the company, not outside, not in the judiciary, not in the press, not in foreign unions.
BASSA is letting you down and deserves to lose your support. CC deserve better. BASSA: Belligerent, Antagonistic, Soon (to be) Swept Away.
and that applies to everyone posting here who are demanding cc cancel the strike until its their turn
The reason so many of us other colleague (inc CC) are exasperated by BASSA's actions is that they have been intransigent to reasoned discussion and change of any kind for an extended period of time (BASSA attitude: the answer is NO what's the question) where as every other group within BA has at least listened to what the company had to say even if it was unpalatable.
BASSA had a very strong mandate from its members and could have NEGOTIATED a very comfortable and mutually agreeable compromise whereby flexibility was offered in exchange for long term guarantees on net salary/allowances. But no, they SQUANDERED their position, burnt their bridges to the point where even the TUC became disturbed at the internal power struggles between factions - the TUC!
I love working with my CC colleagues, they're fun, professional, well trained and committed to the people who pay our salaries (passengers). However like many others in the company I think they could work more flexibly (to no financial loss) and not be starved out of the company. Yet BASSA has seriously misguided them, misinformed them and is about to seriously let them down because some jet-lagged loon from LA has a personality problem.
the postings once this is over will be more interesting than now. Perhaps after the event regardless of the outcome the real facts may come to light.
BASSA is letting you down and deserves to lose your support. CC deserve better. BASSA: Belligerent, Antagonistic, Soon (to be) Swept Away.
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Some crew are being fed the line that Air France's own industrial action is in direct support of them. Shame on the mis-informers for letting this mis-information go unchecked and let crew believe this.
A steward was on the PM news on Radio 4 yesterday and likened Unite and BA as to opposing sides in a war - I agree and the only casualities will be the cannon fodder (crew)
A steward was on the PM news on Radio 4 yesterday and likened Unite and BA as to opposing sides in a war - I agree and the only casualities will be the cannon fodder (crew)
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I can tell you that even within BA other departments are discussing the myths of the situation rather than the facts. That says a lot too.
I'm sure BASSA can do better than that, the trouble is that the argument for this strike is SO weak that BASSA dare not discuss the real reasons for it. Rather they obfuscate and spin, spin, spin.
If the real reasons are so self evidently clear and undeniably valid why are they so well hidden that people within BA are discussing myths rather than facts? Is it because most of the crew themselves do not know or understand the facts because BASSA wish it that way. Many crew do not read the comms that BA issue believing, without question, the union mantra that BA are not to be trusted. Yet BASSA has throughout this process failed to communicate with their own people clearly what it is all about
Safety....
What Dave says does hold up. Most crew I've spoken to were of the opinion, once upon a time, that voting for IA would strengthen BASSAs negotiating position/ force the CEO back to the negotiating table/back down/resign...delete as applicable. They never for one minute believed they would really have to strike.
Now that they can see that the CEO will not back down many of them do indeed wish they could wind the clock back.
Now that they can see that the CEO will not back down many of them do indeed wish they could wind the clock back.
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Imposition
When called upon to justify the escalation in hostilities, BASSA usually fall back upon the following:
"We cannot allow the principle of IMPOSITION to stand, or who knows what BA will impose next?"
In the Judge's summing-up in February, when he ruled the impositions legal, he was quite clear that his ruling was heavily influenced by BA's woeful financial position, and the fact that the CC unions were at each others throats and effecively not negotiating at all.
Without those two factors it is very possible that he would have ruled the impositions illegal.
I do not believe that the foundation for these strikes, the principle of IMPOSITION, is a reasonable one.
"We cannot allow the principle of IMPOSITION to stand, or who knows what BA will impose next?"
In the Judge's summing-up in February, when he ruled the impositions legal, he was quite clear that his ruling was heavily influenced by BA's woeful financial position, and the fact that the CC unions were at each others throats and effecively not negotiating at all.
Without those two factors it is very possible that he would have ruled the impositions illegal.
I do not believe that the foundation for these strikes, the principle of IMPOSITION, is a reasonable one.
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come on please. Thoudsands of CC have been hoodwinked and only the individuals here can see the light. Please stop this nonsense.
You need to clear your heads of all the media nonsense and then allow the real facts to be discussed. Until that happens there is no point in continuing the discussion.
You need to clear your heads of all the media nonsense and then allow the real facts to be discussed. Until that happens there is no point in continuing the discussion.
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Funnily enough, this is the bit I struggled with at the beginning.
I remember coming home in October and saying that the new crew complements were alarming on Eurofleet (7 crew on DME, 3 to CDG) but not impossible, so, although it would impact on the service delivery, it was possibly the lesser of several evils. The main worry was that imposition set a dangerous precedent for future IR. If you believe in the principles of trade unionism, then changes work best if negotiated. In terms of change management, it makes the transition much easier as well.
We've discussed to death why it was imposed and I guess that was why the vote wasn't 100%!
"We cannot allow the principle of IMPOSITION to stand, or who knows what BA will impose next?"
We've discussed to death why it was imposed and I guess that was why the vote wasn't 100%!
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pvmw
Quote:
on this forum and in the press since day 1 of this dispute. Everything I read tells me that the CC are in the wrong
You don't appear to have considered that you are only reading ONE side of the debate
Quote:
on this forum and in the press since day 1 of this dispute. Everything I read tells me that the CC are in the wrong
You don't appear to have considered that you are only reading ONE side of the debate
I understand that change is required, and I understand that it makes people uneasy, but I have watched the nauseating BASSA press releases, their disgraceful behavior both on their website and in the demonstrable falsehoods thay have peddled in the media and I have concluded that theirs is not a fight in support of the CC but an internal power struggle within a corrupt and self-serving union.
I have also read the statements and press releases of BA, the press releases of the PCCC (and please don't insult my intellignce by repeating the BASSA lie that the whole thing is a stooge of BA) and I have concluded that their statements are more credible than those of the opposition.
If my future livelihood depended on believing and trusting the management of BA or the leadership of BASSA I would have absolutely no difficulty in making my choice. I also happen to believe that good, and I stress GOOD, worker representation is necessary for the well-being of the workforce, so I would be doing my upmost to support the PCCC, who I think actually have the needs of their members at heart - something that is very obviously not the case with BASSA / Unite whose agenda is very different.
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SafetyConcerns
[quote][quote]Most crew that I have flown with just wish they could wind the clock back to last summer...
This doesn't really hold up does it. There have been 2 ballots on the same issue.
If above were true they would have voted no
BASSA's timeline, abridged version...
First vote - "Vote yes to get the best deal possible - help your hard working Reps!!"
Second vote - "If you don't vote yes this time, Wille will do whatever he wants with your contract, your life will change forever"
Faced with this, I'm not surprised that there were two very high YES votes.
The FIRST because most crew felt it would get them the best deal.
The SECOND because many felt that they had little choice, they were in too deep.
Only my opinion - but I work with crew every day, and my wife is a WW Purser.
This doesn't really hold up does it. There have been 2 ballots on the same issue.
If above were true they would have voted no
First vote - "Vote yes to get the best deal possible - help your hard working Reps!!"
Second vote - "If you don't vote yes this time, Wille will do whatever he wants with your contract, your life will change forever"
Faced with this, I'm not surprised that there were two very high YES votes.
The FIRST because most crew felt it would get them the best deal.
The SECOND because many felt that they had little choice, they were in too deep.
Only my opinion - but I work with crew every day, and my wife is a WW Purser.