British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ Ottergirl ... thanks for that response. I'm especially pleased that [as you say] talks at ACAS are proceeding 'nicely'. What a shame that couldn't have happened a long time ago.

However, at least some clarity will be achieved on Friday.

Onward and upward.

[Juan Tugoh]

So it can happen when BA have misjudged their manpower levels.

Without going into this in too much detail as this is about the CC, this manpower levels thing is a red herring. No more pilots were taken on and there was no reduction in flying - there was a change in the bidding system and now everyone works their contract, and the problem has gone away.

BA are not the devil incarnate, this working in check-in etc is a scare- mongering tactic. It takes a long time to train check in staff - cabin crew are not going to get called in to do it willy-nilly. This is about getting the crew to operate to sensible rules when there is disruption. BASSA have proved they are not trustworthy in this respect. Aircraft diverting due to snow at Heathrow should not fly home empty because the crew demand two local nights off - if it is safe for the flight crew to operate, it is safe for the CC to operate. Outside BA the CC are never more limiting than the FC, BA areis merely trying to reset to industry standard.

[wascrew]

itk

Ottergirl interesting!
You seem as though you are in the know
Have I missed something? Is the result of the court case now definitely due on friday?
Çan you disclose how you know of what you have heard and what you have heard from the ACAS talks?

thanks

[ottergirl]

wascrew - the above post explains how I knew, from BABOBO! The talks progress thing is what we have been told by the Head of IFCE who, while unable to specify, has stated that quite a few areas of uncommon ground have been resolved, particularly around the absorption of New fleet and how existing staff would be protected.

(AP) — Pilots at German airline Deutsche Lufthansa AG voted Wednesday to go on a four-day strike over wages and job security issues.

Seems this strike thing may be catching!!

[midman]

Originally Posted by ottergirl

There was a time, not so long ago, that pilots were hiding on catering trucks and leaving the aircraft in civvies to avoid weekend draft. Many have separate mobile phones to avoid talking to Flight crew ops by mistake as well. So it can happen when BA have misjudged their manpower levels.

That's a great example Ottergirl. In all my years in the airline we have always had a clause saying we can be called in at any time. (Can you imagine the uproar if Bassa were asked to agree to that?)
We had a short spell where our bidding practices meant that there were occasional periods when BA were short of pilots, as some people 'chose' not to do their annual allocation of work, resulting in some pilots being called in on days off.

It was a short lived problem, affected very few people (I have come in on one extra day out of many thousands in BA) and was solved quickly. Guess how? Yes, we went to BA with a proposed solution, agreed it with BA and the problem disappeared. Not by Balpa threatening disruption to the operation, but by both sides recognising the problem, agreeing the ideal end point, and coming to an agreement about how to achieve that end.

That's how industrial relations can work, even in BA.

We also STILL have that clause in our agreement, but do any pilots think any call from the company will be to call them in? No. It doesn't happen.

The world isn't going to end just because Bassa won't have control over your working lives.

[ottergirl]

It was a short lived problem, affected very few people

If you say so. Seemed like a whole summer of discontent on Airbus with stories of people being drafted off golf courses in Scotland, beaches in Nice, childcare in the Home counties, etc and one guy off his stag do! I accept that it doesn't happen at the moment; be nice to have enough work for it to be needed, eh?

I guess a question to ask is "How has IFCE conducted themselves that their employees are reluctant to trust them with such power over their lives?" My first 15 years in BA was peppered with 'gentlemens agreements' or give and take. All such working arrangements have been dishonoured/lost in the last decade and now no-one is prepared to help anyone else out. That is a sad place to have arrived at but it is why cabin crew are so obsessed with following the rules to the letter (and lets not forget that there are always two signatorys to all of those agreements). Not right IMHO but understandable.

Could IFCE work the way Flight Crew Ops work? With respect on both sides and some give and take from both? Who knows? What I do know is that it'll take a great leap of faith for both sides to give it a try. I'm not sure anyone has the inclination; they/we like to know precisely where they stand, written in black and white, no confusion, no disappointment. Thats a difficult culture to change!

All opinions my own not that of my employer!

[strikemaster82]

Could IFCE work the way Flight Crew Ops work? With respect on both sides and some give and take from both? Who knows?

I think you have answered your own question!

It could work, but that would take dialogue, which seems to be absent from the BASSA/BA relationship.

[midman]

Originally Posted by ottergirl

If you say so. Seemed like a whole summer of discontent on Airbus with stories of people being drafted off golf courses in Scotland, beaches in Nice, childcare in the Home counties, etc and one guy off his stag do! I accept that it doesn't happen at the moment; be nice to have enough work for it to be needed, eh?

Ask any pilot how many years they've been in BA and how many times they've been Force Drafted, and that clause has always existed. You imply we are overestablished - not so, (with the exception of a handful of LGW airbus pilots I believe)

Originally Posted by ottergirl

question to ask is "How has IFCE conducted themselves that their employees are reluctant to trust them with such power over their lives?" My first 15 years in BA was peppered with 'gentlemens agreements' or give and take. All such working arrangements have been dishonoured/lost in the last decade and now no-one is prepared to help anyone else out.

Do you have any examples to explain what appears from outside IFCE as Bassa's need to have a veto over any aspect of running the department?

Originally Posted by ottergirl

Could IFCE work the way Flight Crew Ops work? With respect on both sides and some give and take from both? Who knows? What I do know is that it'll take a great leap of faith for both sides to give it a try.

Well, it's coming and I don't think you'll have much choice. And why should BA have to have a leap of faith - it will be BA holding the cards, not Bassa.

[PC767]

Please do not get bogged down in my cabin crew working on check in analogy, it is only to highlight that it could be possible, not that it will happen. BA already relies on volunteers in other areas at the drop of a hat.

And I'm afraid the problem with BA solely being responsible for the implementation of the ORP is a big problem. I am not suggesting that Bassa or any other union have an ultimate veto, and I agree that the current agreement is ridiculous, even more so when enforced by the unions. As mentioned by another poster there is absolutely no trust between cabin crew and BA. Whilst I'm a glass half full type I am finding it increasingly difficult to motivate crew when BA publicly go about antagonising their staff. Facebook, Bassa and now crewforum witch hunts. A company campaign to be-little and demonise crew resulting in a hastily removed 'wall of hate' in waterside. IFCE is simply not a fun place to work, there is no olive branch, no peace making, no incentive to work with BA to solve problems. Just threats and intimidation.

With this in mind, and a history of BA (and other airlines) seemingly never getting their cabin crew figures correct, I am not happy to have my life seriously distrupted because somebody somewhere got the figures wrong. Will it ever happen, I don't trust them enough to give it a try. I would rather have specific situations without ambiguity when ORP can be implemented. There has always been an underlying current that running with less crew than necessary is cheaper than doing the job properly.

[DP.]

BA publicly go about antagonising their staff. Facebook, Bassa and now crewforum witch hunts.

It can't be a surprise that BA management are taking this route after staff have engaged in numerous examples of libellous behaviour on those places lately. The discussion now of what is supposed to be highly confidential information is clearly the final straw.

It hardly reflects well on the company, nor does it do any good for the morale of other staff who may have volunteered and are now feeling threatened with their names being bandied about, if such behaviour goes unpunished.

It may seem harsh, but BA management are clearly in no mood for this. If someone comes into possession of such information, and discusses what to do with it, it can be no surprise at all that the company will come down hard on them.

[Express1]

As regards crew manning check-in, the training required for check-in is about 12 weeks, twice the length of the cabin crew training course, due to the various systems involved. Some of our crew struggle with basic CBT packages so you wouldn't want to let us loose on the check-in computers!

Check-in training is not 12 weeks and is actually less than the cabin crew course.

[ottergirl]

I would rather have specific situations without ambiguity when ORP can be implemented.

Me too!
As I explained before, the relationship works best in IFCE when all the t's are crossed and i's dotted and we all know exactly where we stand.

I don't trust them enough to give it a try

And so says 13,000 cabin crew, which is why it needs to be very clear and well documented in which circumstances it can be used. This is a company who relies on TRM's and eurofleet crew wanting to do over-time on Euro finals weekend and wonders why they don't fancy it! Result - flight cancellations!

You imply we are overestablished - not so, (with the exception of a handful of LGW airbus pilots I believe)

So the offer of a secondment to Vietnam was just a kind thought then? I guess the first officer who told me he had hardly been used on reserve was just unlucky! Its unlikely there'll be much need for force draft in the current climate anyway but there's always the second mobile to fall back on.

Well, it's coming and I don't think you'll have much choice.

Whats coming? A newly negotiated agreement I suspect which will have some elements of change but will still be in Black and White and which we will all still adhere to rigidly! NOt Scheme but a new agreement signed by both parties. Thats the way of IFCE.

[BentleyH]

trusting the company

I have always found it difficult to understand why people don't trust the company. I have been in the airline for over 18 years and have never been lied to in that entire duration.
Can anybody post any CLEAR examples of where the Company have lied to their employees?

Thank-you

[sharksandwich]

Quote:
"It's a horrible atmosphere, it's like Gestapo
There they go with that war stuff again!
Some of these people should have spent a few hours talking to my grandad (Burma POW), they would think twice before making such insulting comparisons.

All their missives are peppered with the stuff..

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Bus...Steward-Speaks

Strangely,given these particular circumstances, it is a very apt comparison, because the Gestapo relied heavily on informants...which is what appears to have happened in this case..

[ottergirl]

Bentley H

I don't think anyone is accusing any BA manager or representative of lying and it would be insanity to suggest otherwise.

I believe that the mistrust that is being discussed comes from 'a moving of the goal posts' on numerous occasions. In many cases, rather than a deliberate action, this comes about through a change of leadership and a new broom approach. Unfortunately, in IFCE, there is an atmosphere of constant change and the wheel keeps being re-invented. In 2009 I changed manager 4 times and those managers have changed their job title with startling regularity! The current Head of IFCE is the sixth of my career. And without changing job, the department I work for has changed name at least as often.

Consequently, just as an agreement is made and a rapport established, the progress is halted by a new face and the cycle starts all over again. Small wonder that IR is in such a mess. A period of consolidation would be good for all parties and trust could be re-built. I must say myself, that I have no instances of having been lied to in my career either.

All views my own and not reflective of my employer's views.

[Lord Bracken]

Are these "obscene" payments to pilots more or less "obscene" than the one-down payments that went to cabin crew until recently?

[midman]

Originally Posted by ottergirl

I guess a question to ask is "How has IFCE conducted themselves that their employees are reluctant to trust them with such power over their lives?" My first 15 years in BA was peppered with 'gentlemens agreements' or give and take. All such working arrangements have been dishonoured/lost in the last decade and now no-one is prepared to help anyone else out.

Originally Posted by ottergirl

I must say myself, that I have no instances of having been lied to in my career either.

Which is it?

This is an important issue if it means you require your union to have a veto over how the company runs its operation.

[flybymerchant]

Originally Posted by ottergirl

I must say myself, that I have no instances of having been lied to in my career either.

Phew, so we ARE getting somewhere.....is this enough for you to start questionning WHY Bassa have Told you not to trust your World-respected and clearly very generous employer? Is it so that you will ONLY trust them (Bassa)?

Any pennies dropping yet? This is going to be painful to relive once the deceitful and evil veil of BASSA oppression has been forcibly lifted....many Cabin Crew will no doubt feel embarrassed or ashamed for having acted so unquestioningly as the pawns of an evil and selfish regime

[bitsnpieces]

I'm just wondring what kind of disruption agreement would be acceptable to Ottergirl and others? Would it have to spesify snow, rain, fog, leafs etc? Will it be ok to have minimum legal rest in case of diversion? I would like to here what's acceptable for Ottergirl and the others (sorry I can't remmember all the other names).

I work at LGW and we seem to be able to "get on with it". All within legal limits, of course, but no need for disruption "agreement" as Long Haul LHR. I've never been told to come in on days off or work somewhere else because of disruption. The co have asked for voluntears and offer rest day working, but nobody is forced. The only time I've gone into days off is if aircraft is tech. I know some of the crew who was stuck in Europe during snow. They had a night in Europe and then flew home to LGW asap.

[essessdeedee]

You obviously have faith in the ability of Bassa to come to an agreement in the next few days.

Particularly as this has not been acheived in the past eleven and a half months!