British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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Was Crew .
Frankly i am fed up working with SOME crew who winge non stop about delays,working at xmas,easter,and want weekends off .The bottom line is they work for an airline.I agree we are all entitled to a life outside BA,however quite a few crew forget what exactly it was they signed up for .
I disagree with your comment about crew from other airlines.BA cabin crew are NOT all that despite what they seem to believe.Whats the old saying self praise is NO praise.
I think we are all lucky to have had an easy life at BA for years agreements wise, sadly times are changing and if crew can't get with the beat they need to find another job that is reality.I would be surprised if crew do move on though because they know they have it good at BA.Lets face it what other employer would put up with all their drama.
Frankly i am fed up working with SOME crew who winge non stop about delays,working at xmas,easter,and want weekends off .The bottom line is they work for an airline.I agree we are all entitled to a life outside BA,however quite a few crew forget what exactly it was they signed up for .
I disagree with your comment about crew from other airlines.BA cabin crew are NOT all that despite what they seem to believe.Whats the old saying self praise is NO praise.
I think we are all lucky to have had an easy life at BA for years agreements wise, sadly times are changing and if crew can't get with the beat they need to find another job that is reality.I would be surprised if crew do move on though because they know they have it good at BA.Lets face it what other employer would put up with all their drama.
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Cranebank has many eyes and ears and that is what a democratic system in this country allows or have i said too much.
I believe the company's intention is very much to destroy BASSA in every shape and form, and to make its continued existence untenable. While I do believe that negotiations were started last year in good faith (yes, even by management), it is clear to me that management no longer have any tolerance for working practices that are totally incompatible with a modern business.
Unfortunately, real people come between unions and management. While I have consistently said before that real people have made real life plans around their salaries and allowances (whatever your opinion of the size of those allowances), that does not excuse the BASSA reps from total refusal to consider compromise and changes in good faith. They just don't get it that it is not just about the cash taken in salaries alone, but the business flexibility that causes compound wastage of resources and capital elsewhere. The 70s mentality will get them nowhere.
I very much understand why many allowances and structures were set up - BOAC cargo crews stuck in Auckland alone for a week awaiting the next flight to pick them up needed real support and allowances. That is totally incomparable to a 3x daily ATH or 2x daily SEA operation.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the real world and media couldn't care less - the world is short of money and jobs right now in aggregate...
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Watersidewonker
The rather sinister implication behind your words, most definitely is not allowed in a mature society. As those of your colleagues, shortly to lose their livelihood will soon discover!
Continue to be very careful with your precise use of words, lest you wish to join their number.
Cranebank has many eyes and ears and that is what a democratic system in this country allows or have i said too much.
Continue to be very careful with your precise use of words, lest you wish to join their number.
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Re: The cyberspace bullying debate.
I see from recent reports that Len McLuskey is still using the word "machismo" to describe BA's attempts at stopping the bullying and harrassment of its male AND female employees by union militants.
Could someone please advise the sexist dinosaur that this word is no longer appropriate to describe an industrial dispute involve all genders and lifestyles?
I see from recent reports that Len McLuskey is still using the word "machismo" to describe BA's attempts at stopping the bullying and harrassment of its male AND female employees by union militants.
Could someone please advise the sexist dinosaur that this word is no longer appropriate to describe an industrial dispute involve all genders and lifestyles?
[QUOTE]I believe the company's intention is very much to destroy BASSA in every shape and form, and to make its continued existence untenable/QUOTE]
That would be the sensible thing for BA to do. Leaving BASSA alive after this would just be storing up trouble for the future. Whether or not this is really BA's intention i can't say.
That would be the sensible thing for BA to do. Leaving BASSA alive after this would just be storing up trouble for the future. Whether or not this is really BA's intention i can't say.
Anyway, getting back to the real issue:
I do wonder if Willie would prefer a negotiated settlement or outright war with unconditional surrender.
The Cold War philosophy of Mutually Assured Destruction springs to mind.
Leaving BASSA alive after this would just be storing up trouble for the future.
The Cold War philosophy of Mutually Assured Destruction springs to mind.
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@Wonker
Do you really thing that your posts do the BASSA cause any good? All you do is cement the thought that BASSA are using underhand tactics to try get their way.
You are certainly not acting in a manner that will garner any support from the media or public. If you really want to help out, I would post reasons for your support for the action and not hint at the actions you are planning to take if/ when a strike is called.
All it sounds like to be are the last desperate throws of a man who already knows he's beaten
WOW with less than a week to go until the massive YES vote arrives i am getting so excited and with the bonus of a High Court topup around the same time. The media are taking a turn away from BA from what i have read in recent days so let us wait and see what the future brings. Cranebank has many eyes and ears and that is what a democratic system in this country allows or have i said too much.
You are certainly not acting in a manner that will garner any support from the media or public. If you really want to help out, I would post reasons for your support for the action and not hint at the actions you are planning to take if/ when a strike is called.
All it sounds like to be are the last desperate throws of a man who already knows he's beaten
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Why are you not on strike
On the subject of strikes, because I have a slack 30 mins, and I’m particularly interested in the views of the pro-strike camp: -
The question is: - “Why are you not on strike?”
Cabin crew (or BASSA at least) were reportedly angry at the partisan decision of the courts to declare their planned strike illegal – claims of bias on the part of the judge even resulted in the justice releasing a press statement refuting some of the more outrageous claims being made on the BASSA forum about Christmas holiday flights etc – but should cabin crew also direct their rage at the way the leaders of the Unite union have conducted themselves?
Unite’s leaders spent months in negotiations with BA management only to stand by when contractual changes were suddenly introduced without agreement. BA then went ahead and reduced crew numbers on flights and imposed a pay freeze while new entrants begin on reduced conditions.
Any self-respecting union leadership would have called the 12k (ish) cabin crew out on strike there and then in response to BA’s provocation (as they see it).
But no, Unite’s leaders dillied and dallied out of sheer fear, not just at what BA’s response might be but at the consequences of defying the anti-trade union laws.
These laws, introduced by the Tories in the early 1990s, make it illegal to have a strike without a ballot. This is not perhaps aimed at enhancing democracy but at defusing workers’ anger while weeks are spent on an expensive ballot operation in place of the traditional show of hands at a mass meeting.
Even then, Unite’s officials couldn’t get it right. They opened the door to a BA challenge by balloting a group of cabin crew who had taken voluntary redundancy. Of course, the 92% vote in favour of a strike on an 80% turnout easily outweighed those balloted in error. But with the media engaged in a ferocious witch-hunt, Mrs Justice Cox ruled that the ballot did not conform to the 1992 Trade Union Act.
As an official from Bassa is reported to have said: "The decision questions your faith in the whole system. It makes you wonder if you have the right to strike anymore.”
The right to strike has long since disappeared in Britain and the union leadership has, by and large, gone along with this. After this court ruling, the leaders of Unite declared it “a bad day for democracy”. Well, if they are so concerned about democracy, why didn’t just they simply defy the court and go ahead with the strike instead or planning another ballot?
If they had done that, it would have been a blow for democracy against undemocratic laws.
At one time, union leaders were bold enough to defy the state and fight for their members. In 1972, the predecessors of Unite in the Transport and General Workers Union ignored anti-union laws brought in by the Heath Tory government. As a result, five Dockers were jailed for contempt of court. This sparked moves towards a one-day General Strike and the ruling class quickly found a legal loophole to free the Dockers within days.
Within a few years, the unions compelled a Labour government to abolish the anti-union laws.
How things have changed! New Labour has retained virtually all the anti-union legislation passed by Thatcher. Former Prime Minister Tony Blair congratulated himself for declaring that Britain had the most draconian anti-union laws in Europe. And the union leaders have done nothing in 12 years of New Labour to change the position. Yet rank and file trade unionists like those who staged “unofficial” walkouts at the Lindsey oil refinery have demonstrated that the anti-union laws quickly disintegrate in the face of mass defiance.
The moral of this tale is the unions have lost. This strike is over nothing worthy of a strike, but if it were the unions have no stomach for it anyway. Through adherence to a system they claim is unfair they provide employers with so much notice as to prepare that when a strike does occur it’s effect is so diluted as to be almost pointless.
I did not even notice the recent postal, strike save for a few less bits of junk mail awaiting me when I got home.
You have one bolt and you’re firing it at the wrong target and only then after giving it plenty of time to erect defences. Give it up BASSA, you’ve lost.
Shame really, Unions have done some good things in the past...
The question is: - “Why are you not on strike?”
Cabin crew (or BASSA at least) were reportedly angry at the partisan decision of the courts to declare their planned strike illegal – claims of bias on the part of the judge even resulted in the justice releasing a press statement refuting some of the more outrageous claims being made on the BASSA forum about Christmas holiday flights etc – but should cabin crew also direct their rage at the way the leaders of the Unite union have conducted themselves?
Unite’s leaders spent months in negotiations with BA management only to stand by when contractual changes were suddenly introduced without agreement. BA then went ahead and reduced crew numbers on flights and imposed a pay freeze while new entrants begin on reduced conditions.
Any self-respecting union leadership would have called the 12k (ish) cabin crew out on strike there and then in response to BA’s provocation (as they see it).
But no, Unite’s leaders dillied and dallied out of sheer fear, not just at what BA’s response might be but at the consequences of defying the anti-trade union laws.
These laws, introduced by the Tories in the early 1990s, make it illegal to have a strike without a ballot. This is not perhaps aimed at enhancing democracy but at defusing workers’ anger while weeks are spent on an expensive ballot operation in place of the traditional show of hands at a mass meeting.
Even then, Unite’s officials couldn’t get it right. They opened the door to a BA challenge by balloting a group of cabin crew who had taken voluntary redundancy. Of course, the 92% vote in favour of a strike on an 80% turnout easily outweighed those balloted in error. But with the media engaged in a ferocious witch-hunt, Mrs Justice Cox ruled that the ballot did not conform to the 1992 Trade Union Act.
As an official from Bassa is reported to have said: "The decision questions your faith in the whole system. It makes you wonder if you have the right to strike anymore.”
The right to strike has long since disappeared in Britain and the union leadership has, by and large, gone along with this. After this court ruling, the leaders of Unite declared it “a bad day for democracy”. Well, if they are so concerned about democracy, why didn’t just they simply defy the court and go ahead with the strike instead or planning another ballot?
If they had done that, it would have been a blow for democracy against undemocratic laws.
At one time, union leaders were bold enough to defy the state and fight for their members. In 1972, the predecessors of Unite in the Transport and General Workers Union ignored anti-union laws brought in by the Heath Tory government. As a result, five Dockers were jailed for contempt of court. This sparked moves towards a one-day General Strike and the ruling class quickly found a legal loophole to free the Dockers within days.
Within a few years, the unions compelled a Labour government to abolish the anti-union laws.
How things have changed! New Labour has retained virtually all the anti-union legislation passed by Thatcher. Former Prime Minister Tony Blair congratulated himself for declaring that Britain had the most draconian anti-union laws in Europe. And the union leaders have done nothing in 12 years of New Labour to change the position. Yet rank and file trade unionists like those who staged “unofficial” walkouts at the Lindsey oil refinery have demonstrated that the anti-union laws quickly disintegrate in the face of mass defiance.
The moral of this tale is the unions have lost. This strike is over nothing worthy of a strike, but if it were the unions have no stomach for it anyway. Through adherence to a system they claim is unfair they provide employers with so much notice as to prepare that when a strike does occur it’s effect is so diluted as to be almost pointless.
I did not even notice the recent postal, strike save for a few less bits of junk mail awaiting me when I got home.
You have one bolt and you’re firing it at the wrong target and only then after giving it plenty of time to erect defences. Give it up BASSA, you’ve lost.
Shame really, Unions have done some good things in the past...
Why??
Why is BA's approach to staffing CC jobs so Britain-centric?
If BA need the long haul to ANZ via Bangkok, HKG and Sin., why don't they crew them from one (or two, or three) of those locations?
If North America is so important, why don't they crew those flights from North America?
Why on earth do BA stay with the UK crews at all, given that 90 + % of the crews seem to dislike their employer so much??
If BA need the long haul to ANZ via Bangkok, HKG and Sin., why don't they crew them from one (or two, or three) of those locations?
If North America is so important, why don't they crew those flights from North America?
Why on earth do BA stay with the UK crews at all, given that 90 + % of the crews seem to dislike their employer so much??
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Now this is a very good question indeed... 
As for the strike itself, I must admit that until these recent days, I hadn't understood the reason for it (foolishly thinking that it was to protest against the CC reduction)...Now that I - finally- got it, I can't stop wondering why on earth anyone who needs his salary at the end of the month/a job/etc. would imperil all that just for a matter of -an irrelevant to that- principle that at the very end of day isn't even of his own concern, but only relevant to the union leaders...
Let them strike or take it to court for God's sake ! But keep your jobs and even your right to strike for something that REALLY matters and makes a difference to you.
As for the strike itself, I must admit that until these recent days, I hadn't understood the reason for it (foolishly thinking that it was to protest against the CC reduction)...Now that I - finally- got it, I can't stop wondering why on earth anyone who needs his salary at the end of the month/a job/etc. would imperil all that just for a matter of -an irrelevant to that- principle that at the very end of day isn't even of his own concern, but only relevant to the union leaders...
Let them strike or take it to court for God's sake ! But keep your jobs and even your right to strike for something that REALLY matters and makes a difference to you.
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Wascrew wrote
That is the most hilarious thing I have read in ages - Every crew member I have observed during times of disruption will utter the words "I've got to call my Union" and then sit down with the Mail crossword awaiting further instructions. I would say that BA is unique in the UK in that it's crew are the least capable of showing initiative (that you claimed). As a BA skipper I have often had to submit to the intransigent directives of a 'BASSA advised SCCM'.
Winner of the bullsh*t award for February Wascrew!
Disruption and working unsociable hours IS part of the package and believe me sometimes dirsuption is the better part of the package in some ways. It is then that the skill, knowledge,experience and the ability to think on your feet comes to the fore and this may sound perverse but it is also enjoyable in a way aside from the more mundane days. It does of course mean that any appointments or plans you have may have to be re-arranged or go out of the window
IMHO this ability to think on ones feet is what separates BA crews from the `metronomic` behaviour of some airline crews.
IMHO this ability to think on ones feet is what separates BA crews from the `metronomic` behaviour of some airline crews.
Winner of the bullsh*t award for February Wascrew!
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Snas,
There is a striking resemblance between your post at 19:00 and the blog below from 18th December last year.
http://aw2w.********.com/2009/12/uni...nion-laws.html
It would be better if you would credit the original author rather than make a few subtle changes and try and pass the work off as your own.
There is a striking resemblance between your post at 19:00 and the blog below from 18th December last year.
http://aw2w.********.com/2009/12/uni...nion-laws.html
It would be better if you would credit the original author rather than make a few subtle changes and try and pass the work off as your own.
why don't they crew them from one (or two, or three) of those locations?
( The foregoing in no way suggests that UK national CC are any less elegant, polite or accomplished skiers )
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Indeed, BA have many options on how they wish to select crew and foreign bases have always been used and the individual numbers used from each base has been agreed with BASSA.
I noticed that Watersidewonker has dropped in to update the PPrune forum on his take on the current situation
A massive YES vote and presumably followed by industrial action? I question whether the BASSA leadership has really informed the membership what the consequences of striking really are.
Allegedly, on the “other” forum, some observant sole has alluded to the fact that they have just seen a website run by the government which deals with changes to contracts.
Disagreeing to changes in your employment conditions : Directgov - Employment
Presumably the following paragraphs were something that they were possibly not aware of, didn’t like the look of and might have asked themselves why they had not been made aware:
Given that Watersidewonker is correct and the membership will return a YES vote, albeit with a reduced majority, what proportion of cabin crew will have an appetite to ACTUALLY withdraw their labour and strike given the certainty that staff travel will be withdrawn and the above simplistic but clear legal position.
My humble view, considerably less than 2000, and clearly all the BASSA reps that orchestrated this situation should be at the front of the queue to get the "good news" from Mr Walsh.
I noticed that Watersidewonker has dropped in to update the PPrune forum on his take on the current situation
WOW with less than a week to go until the massive YES vote arrives i am getting so excited and with the bonus of a High Court topup around the same time.
Allegedly, on the “other” forum, some observant sole has alluded to the fact that they have just seen a website run by the government which deals with changes to contracts.
Disagreeing to changes in your employment conditions : Directgov - Employment
Presumably the following paragraphs were something that they were possibly not aware of, didn’t like the look of and might have asked themselves why they had not been made aware:
If you don't agree, your employer is not allowed to just bring in a change. However, they can terminate your contract (by giving notice) and offer you a new one including the revised terms - effectively sacking you and taking you back on.
If you don't accept the new contract - or if you've accepted the new one but feel there was no good reason for ending the old one - you have the right to make an unfair dismissal claim.
If there is a sound business reason for the change, and your employer has properly consulted you and looked into any alternatives, you could find it difficult to win your claim.
My humble view, considerably less than 2000, and clearly all the BASSA reps that orchestrated this situation should be at the front of the queue to get the "good news" from Mr Walsh.
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@ Rover90. That makes a very neat summary of the position. Somehow [and it is not for me to comment on that] vast numbers of CC are apparently being led towards the precipice. I earnestly hope they realise where they're going.
From my reading here, and in other areas, any form of 'jubilation' about going on strike may be seriously misplaced.
Whichever, good luck to you all. Some may need it more than others.
From my reading here, and in other areas, any form of 'jubilation' about going on strike may be seriously misplaced.
Whichever, good luck to you all. Some may need it more than others.
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Originally Posted by Dawdler
It is possibly too late for a change of mind now anyway. I imagine that most of those intending to vote (which ever way) have already done so.
However, all will become clear in due course.
Wishing you all well for the weeks ahead - whatever your position.
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Other areas in BA have volunteered their services iob the event of a cabin crew strike but this ORP could mean for example if the bagagge handlers go on strike then the crew will be re-deployed as baggage handlers or in any area of the business.
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Right Engine
quote
``That is the most hilarious thing I have read in ages - Every crew member I have observed during times of disruption will utter the words "I've got to call my Union" and then sit down with the Mail crossword awaiting further instructions. I would say that BA is unique in the UK in that it's crew are the least capable of showing initiative (that you claimed). As a BA skipper I have often had to submit to the intransigent directives of a 'BASSA advised SCCM'.
Winner of the bullsh*t award for February Wascrew!``
You obviously tar everyone with the same brush and i suspect your view of cabin crew as a whole was not that rosy prior to the current issues. Sad that a person in your position should resort to this generalisation and bad language. Which makes me think that possibly you do not hold the position you claim to hold.
On one of my last flights we had a delay situation and as you know more often than not flight crew will go out of hours before the cabin crew. On this occasion the captain said that she was not going to go into discretion because of the companys` stance on `Open Skies` Plenty of consulting sheme etc then! So do I therefore shout and claim that all pilots will only work to scheme/industrial as a result of this.
In the past there were barrack room lawyers who knew every rule who may have intervened in discussions between the SCCM and pilots but in recent years not the case from my experience.
We (CAPT/CSD) always worked together understanding the restrictions on both be they scheme or industrial.
You are attempting to personalise something here through a rash statement. Please on this issue stick to the facts which was something I was trying to do on my post about the ORP.
Weather map
Quote
``Frankly i am fed up working with SOME crew who winge non stop about delays,working at xmas,easter,and want weekends off .The bottom line is they work for an airline.I agree we are all entitled to a life outside BA,however quite a few crew forget what exactly it was they signed up for .``
I don`t disagree that some crew forget what the job might entail and have said as much in previous posts however those whingers apart surely you agree that new ORP looks a bit one sided?
quote
``That is the most hilarious thing I have read in ages - Every crew member I have observed during times of disruption will utter the words "I've got to call my Union" and then sit down with the Mail crossword awaiting further instructions. I would say that BA is unique in the UK in that it's crew are the least capable of showing initiative (that you claimed). As a BA skipper I have often had to submit to the intransigent directives of a 'BASSA advised SCCM'.
Winner of the bullsh*t award for February Wascrew!``
You obviously tar everyone with the same brush and i suspect your view of cabin crew as a whole was not that rosy prior to the current issues. Sad that a person in your position should resort to this generalisation and bad language. Which makes me think that possibly you do not hold the position you claim to hold.
On one of my last flights we had a delay situation and as you know more often than not flight crew will go out of hours before the cabin crew. On this occasion the captain said that she was not going to go into discretion because of the companys` stance on `Open Skies` Plenty of consulting sheme etc then! So do I therefore shout and claim that all pilots will only work to scheme/industrial as a result of this.
In the past there were barrack room lawyers who knew every rule who may have intervened in discussions between the SCCM and pilots but in recent years not the case from my experience.
We (CAPT/CSD) always worked together understanding the restrictions on both be they scheme or industrial.
You are attempting to personalise something here through a rash statement. Please on this issue stick to the facts which was something I was trying to do on my post about the ORP.
Weather map
Quote
``Frankly i am fed up working with SOME crew who winge non stop about delays,working at xmas,easter,and want weekends off .The bottom line is they work for an airline.I agree we are all entitled to a life outside BA,however quite a few crew forget what exactly it was they signed up for .``
I don`t disagree that some crew forget what the job might entail and have said as much in previous posts however those whingers apart surely you agree that new ORP looks a bit one sided?