British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SALISBURY
Age: 76
Posts: 706
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Strike cause
what is the upcoming strike about?
Where now as that ploy has so spectacularly failed after yesterday's victory for justice & dare I say it, good old fashioned common sense?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: England
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Freedom to Act
Dear ALL the court case has brought out some of the facts. It has shown that BASSA's tactic of delaying any changes until the economic recovery arrived has been Osterich in its stupidity.
The ballot result is not yet known. Unite can still step back. CC can still vote NO. It's their fight and we can only hope that they knew the facts about the infighting during the talks etc (that were quite frankly embarassing in their ineptitude as the ruling shows) and have seen light.
IF there is a strike AND it starts, NO-ONE can say that they did not know what happened and what will happen. There have been enough clues on all the threads. Any strike looks like being a repeat of WW I where the troops are sent forward to slaughter while the generals are miles from the front and indeed miles from reality.
I have been offended by the images BASSA have used during the campaign. The half truths, deflecting the facts against their colleagues and ALL the smearing against the PCCC.
You get what you pay for these days. That is true for the price of you ticket and your Union. I fail to see how BA CC have been properly and professionally represented when you read the judgement in full.
Was this about the FEW or the MANY?
ATB HT
The ballot result is not yet known. Unite can still step back. CC can still vote NO. It's their fight and we can only hope that they knew the facts about the infighting during the talks etc (that were quite frankly embarassing in their ineptitude as the ruling shows) and have seen light.
IF there is a strike AND it starts, NO-ONE can say that they did not know what happened and what will happen. There have been enough clues on all the threads. Any strike looks like being a repeat of WW I where the troops are sent forward to slaughter while the generals are miles from the front and indeed miles from reality.
I have been offended by the images BASSA have used during the campaign. The half truths, deflecting the facts against their colleagues and ALL the smearing against the PCCC.
You get what you pay for these days. That is true for the price of you ticket and your Union. I fail to see how BA CC have been properly and professionally represented when you read the judgement in full.
Was this about the FEW or the MANY?
ATB HT
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bath Road
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is the upcoming strike about?
Some would argue it's what the court case is all about.
Partly true - but not entirely accurate.
The court hearing was about whether BA breached the individual's contract by removing a crew member off the aircraft as the crewing levels were - according to UNITE - contractual.
The strike ballot is about the PRINCIPLE of imposition - imposing things and in this case it's about removing a crew member without negotiations. The court voted in favour for BA and even if it was perfectly legal to remove a crew member UNITE - and many crew - feel they shouldn't have done it without asking them for "permission".
Some would argue it's what the court case is all about.
Partly true - but not entirely accurate.
The court hearing was about whether BA breached the individual's contract by removing a crew member off the aircraft as the crewing levels were - according to UNITE - contractual.
The strike ballot is about the PRINCIPLE of imposition - imposing things and in this case it's about removing a crew member without negotiations. The court voted in favour for BA and even if it was perfectly legal to remove a crew member UNITE - and many crew - feel they shouldn't have done it without asking them for "permission".
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Thailand
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bitsnpieces
I was wondring if people from other area's of Unite is upset with the cost and stuff with the Bassa cort case? I dont think I would like it if my union fee got higher becose of this.
I was wondring if people from other area's of Unite is upset with the cost and stuff with the Bassa cort case? I dont think I would like it if my union fee got higher becose of this.
I'm sorry, I see this as a colossal waste of members money to fight a battle over non-existent claims. Hence the (repeated) losses in court.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is the upcoming strike about?
The strike ballot is about the PRINCIPLE of imposing - in this case removing a crew member without negotiations. The court voted in favour for BA and even if it was perfectly legal to remove a crew member UNITE - and many crew - feel they shouldn't have done it without asking them for "permission".
The strike ballot is about the PRINCIPLE of imposing - in this case removing a crew member without negotiations. The court voted in favour for BA and even if it was perfectly legal to remove a crew member UNITE - and many crew - feel they shouldn't have done it without asking them for "permission".
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, the court was about crew complemients being contractual or not. The strike is about IMPOSITION. Lots of crew say that even if the crew complements might work on some flights, because it was imposed, then that means that we have to strike over it.
My argument though is, after 9 months of negotiations that don't get anywhere - surely the company can impose NON-CONTRACTUAL changes?? When we are in a recession and critical financial position like most airlines. However UNITE could have avoided imposition!
Unfortunately Unite doesn't think on the same wavelength, feed it to the members and that's why although I voted No twice, I still think we are going to get a majority. I just hope the majority is way less - as I am fed up of people saying ''92% can't be wrong''
etc etc!!
My argument though is, after 9 months of negotiations that don't get anywhere - surely the company can impose NON-CONTRACTUAL changes?? When we are in a recession and critical financial position like most airlines. However UNITE could have avoided imposition!
Unfortunately Unite doesn't think on the same wavelength, feed it to the members and that's why although I voted No twice, I still think we are going to get a majority. I just hope the majority is way less - as I am fed up of people saying ''92% can't be wrong''
etc etc!!
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was surprised to hear a couple of LGW cabin crew saying yesterday they felt they ought to vote for a strike. I didn't want to rock the boat by asking them directly but can someone please explain why they feel they are entitled to vote for a strike?
Does anyone know what the LGW cabin crew hope to achieve by a strike vote? Are they showing support for LHR cabin crew who sold them down the river by allowing BASSA to agree the LGW crewing levels? Or is it the withdrawal of a purser or because LGW crew can no longer transfer to LHR, or just because they feel they are the poor cousins of LHR crew and need to show some protest in case their conditions deteriorate further in the future?
Glamgirl you have always been so practical and spot on with your comments and observations. Maybe you can explain why some of your LGW colleagues want to vote for a strike that has been instigated by BASSA due to imposition at LHR.
Does anyone know what the LGW cabin crew hope to achieve by a strike vote? Are they showing support for LHR cabin crew who sold them down the river by allowing BASSA to agree the LGW crewing levels? Or is it the withdrawal of a purser or because LGW crew can no longer transfer to LHR, or just because they feel they are the poor cousins of LHR crew and need to show some protest in case their conditions deteriorate further in the future?
Glamgirl you have always been so practical and spot on with your comments and observations. Maybe you can explain why some of your LGW colleagues want to vote for a strike that has been instigated by BASSA due to imposition at LHR.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The timeline given by the judge in his verdict shows up the fallacy of claiming it's all about imposition though. It's perfectly clear from that it was the union refusing to negotiate that was the reason for BA having to impose a decision.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The strike ballot is about the PRINCIPLE of imposition - imposing things and in this case it's about removing a crew member without negotiations. The court voted in favour for BA and even if it was perfectly legal to remove a crew member UNITE - and many crew - feel they shouldn't have done it without asking them for "permission".
Similarly, the idea that BA will feel they need the negotiated agreement of Bassa reps to achieve change is now equally fallacious.
Cabin crew don't realise the scale of change that their reps' intransigence is going to leave them exposed to , now that Bassa have offered agreements up for scrutiny by the courts and have been trounced at every turn.
Watersidewnker called this a chess match. But as a result of playing this game so badly, effectively offering their key pieces up for the taking, Bassa have left the pawns defenceless, and without any tactics to move forward again. They will now have to rely on the good nature of their employer to avoid having what they have left taken from them. What a disaster for cabin crew.
If Bassa had negotiated effectively from the start, the changes would have been smaller, more gradual, and would have retained the concept that agreements are contractual and would have carried greater weight. Bassa would itself have retained its influence over matters in IFCE.
The only way forward now is for this strike to be defeated quickly (highly likely) and for cabin crew to then fundamentally reassess the way they work with the company. BA now have the mandate and the motivation to destroy any Ts and Cs they see fit, and the only option for cabin crew, if they wish to retain any, is to accept that BA can do what they want, and to sit down and talk to the company on the company's terms. It's now essential that they align the cabin crew's aims with those of the company, not to see them as two mutually exclusive concepts, which is how they work at the moment.
I don't believe Bassa or CC89 (do they still exist as an entity?) can do that. Their attitudes, aims, tactics and strategy have failed consistently. Cabin crew need to now accept that. They now have to regroup around a different leader and group of representatives, accept that change will be fundamental and universal, and work with management to create a working environment that is acceptable to both sides and fit to compete in the commercial world we're currently struggling in.
Plenty of Bassa members who feel they have no option but to support Bassa read this forum, (I've spoken to plenty). It's now time for you to accept that change will happen, that Bassa cannot serve its members' interests and that a complete change of direction is needed.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 724
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't post often but the above caught my eye. The action was taken in the name of "Malone and others", not Unite or BASSA. This means that, officially at any rate, "Malone and others" will be liable for the costs.
CPR r19.6 provides that a representative action can be begun or continued by one or more persons who have the same interest in a claim as any other persons who have that interest - that would seem correct to be reps, whose legal costs are paid by their union (so long as those other persons can be identified before judgement, and thus it is not a class action).
I can see why the PCCC have set up their own representation, so that they have some degree of representation at least to preserve their lifestyles as and when Unite delivers BA a completely free hand to introduce any change they want, through their utterly intransigent and foolish "negotiating" position.
Which is particularly bothersome, as real people at the end of the day need a negotiated and agreed solution to the fact that BA has become - unfortunately - structurally uncompetitive by the nature of the way in which scheduling is inefficient, seniority is skewed, and the whole setup costs more than competitors operating the same routes into the UK.
The arrogance of Unite is encapsulated by their reported dismissive and belittling attitude towards the "junior" BA finance analyst (who was probably not that junior), who had been tasked with briefing the reps on the company's financial position.
Reps who cannot take the time to even listen to the other side are not worthy of the position that they hold (and the allowances they collect for holding).
The timeline given by the judge in his verdict shows up the fallacy of claiming it's all about imposition though. It's perfectly clear from that it was the union refusing to negotiate that was the reason for BA having to impose a decision.
No precedent for all UK workers at all in my opinion - just sheer stupidity! The basis of the ruling was simply that the union failed to bother negotiating.
And Malone's cronies cannot delete the opinions set out here as well! Ha!
Last edited by Lucifer; 20th Feb 2010 at 15:22.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Netherlands
Age: 58
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by winstonsmith
What is the upcoming strike about?
The strike ballot is about the PRINCIPLE of imposing - in this case removing a crew member without negotiations. The court voted in favour for BA and even if it was perfectly legal to remove a crew member UNITE - and many crew - feel they shouldn't have done it without asking them for "permission".
What is the upcoming strike about?
The strike ballot is about the PRINCIPLE of imposing - in this case removing a crew member without negotiations. The court voted in favour for BA and even if it was perfectly legal to remove a crew member UNITE - and many crew - feel they shouldn't have done it without asking them for "permission".
Even if the changes were unjustly imposed, the court also ruled that the changes can no longer be undone. So what is the strike about? Punishment? Revenge? What are they trying to prevent?
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bath Road
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was surprised to hear a couple of LGW cabin crew saying yesterday they felt they ought to vote for a strike. I didn't want to rock the boat by asking them directly but can someone please explain why they feel they are entitled to vote for a strike?
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bath Road
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Henkebaby - He did. He also mentioned something about LGW and that they have been operating with less crew than LHR. That was also to BASSA's disadvantage.
What is the strike about? It is about the imposition - management removing a crew member off the aircraft without the union's consent. It doesn't matter whether it's legal - it's about the fact that it was done without negotiations according to BASSA.
Some crew will claim it's about the company not honouring agreements and others it's another message to management to head back to the table and do another round of negotiations.
What is the strike about? It is about the imposition - management removing a crew member off the aircraft without the union's consent. It doesn't matter whether it's legal - it's about the fact that it was done without negotiations according to BASSA.
Some crew will claim it's about the company not honouring agreements and others it's another message to management to head back to the table and do another round of negotiations.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Papillon
To be a hair splitter, they cant strike because they dont like "something". To be a lawful strike it has to be based on pay or terms and conditions.
They cant strike for example because they dont like a hot towell round being introduced..!
They cant strike for example because they dont like a hot towell round being introduced..!
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: LHR
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well if that's true, there will be another injuction on the way.
Tactically the company may sow seeds of doubt with the threat of litigation after the strike if the ballot is not legal.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bath Road
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There won't be another injunction.
Willie Walsh has made it crystal clear that if the cabin crew wants to strike - they can do it. The strike will only be to their own disadvantage - frankly many crew can't see what's coming if they go on a strike.
Willie Walsh has made it crystal clear that if the cabin crew wants to strike - they can do it. The strike will only be to their own disadvantage - frankly many crew can't see what's coming if they go on a strike.