British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To bring BA down would of course not benefit anyone but I would rather see the company go bust than letting WW (and BF) get their wish come through with what they are trying to do. And, that's not only the imposition.
But, as I have said many, many times before, when the above quoted rhetoric comes out then this dispute, in all it's nitty gritty, becomes mine.
I will support the company to keep BA and loyal BA customers flying through any petty BASSA dispute. Not because I disagree with the crews concerns about where their T's & C's might be going but because I abhor the actions and direction taken by BASSA in supposed support of their membership.
Judging by the forums on ESS there are a vast amount of my Corduroy trouser wearing brigade who agree.
Change is required. BA cannot continue to function as an airline without cost cutting. Pilots have taken their rationalisation 5 years ago. Ground staff agreed new working contracts with the move to T5. Checkin staff agreed the same with the move to T5.
The fiasco of the opening of T5 has been financially recouped by a reduction in the rent attributed to T5 from BAA as they were the root cause.
Fuel hedging was never meant to be a profit making exercise, it is there to smooth out the peaks AND TROUGHS of the fuel price to allow better profit forecasting.
Price fixing 'probably' (as we will never rightly know) brought in more in excess profit than the fines incurred for its occurrence. Why did BA capitulate so quickly? Also, sorry VV but it happened outside of Willie Walshs tenure.
Where do we save money now then? The company has done its best to engage BASSA but BASSA don't want it. They are spoiling for a fight and now they have got one.
Goodbye BASSA, 2010 will be so much more pleasant without them!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A Lurker
...yet I cannot sit here and see our airline destroyed by Willie Walsh and his proposals...
...yet I cannot sit here and see our airline destroyed by Willie Walsh and his proposals...
The only ones who are in danger of destroying the airline are BASSA. Or is that what you meant by the quote? You don't want WW to destroy the airline because you want to do it yourself?
Get a grip and understand basic economics. I seriously doubt you have 2 successful businesses outside BA...
a) You understanding of overheads and costs is abysmal
b) Why would you still work for BA - a job and company you obviously despise - if you were so successful?
The sheer bloody mindedness of some people on here is astounding - the lack of grasp on reality is frightening. The selfish attitude some (by no means all) CC on here would make me wonder if they would even step up to the mark in an aircraft emergency if their life was also at risk, or if they would cut and run.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anotherthing,
It is because it is easy to take a militant, antagonistic stance and agree to the destruction of an employer when you do so from a position of financial security.
50% with two successful (not travel businesses advertised on Second Life perchance? Guess we will never know
) internet businesses? Just how important are the lives of all your junior colleagues who have nothing to fall back on?
Great support, with 'friends' like these in the Union who needs enemies.
'Sod you Jack, I'm alright' springs to mind.
It is because it is easy to take a militant, antagonistic stance and agree to the destruction of an employer when you do so from a position of financial security.
50% with two successful (not travel businesses advertised on Second Life perchance? Guess we will never know
) internet businesses? Just how important are the lives of all your junior colleagues who have nothing to fall back on?Great support, with 'friends' like these in the Union who needs enemies.
'Sod you Jack, I'm alright' springs to mind.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: LHR
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the comments made earlier about the state of the BA product, look at some of the cheapest WT sale fares currently on offer (and these include Gordon's chunk of APD!):
New York: £299 return
Boston/Philadelphia/Washington: £309 return
Dubai: £325 return
When you offer fares at these prices, something has to give and WT remains an extremely good value product.
Also, could some of the changes to catering have been avoided if productivity improvements had been agreed 12 months ago?
New York: £299 return
Boston/Philadelphia/Washington: £309 return
Dubai: £325 return
When you offer fares at these prices, something has to give and WT remains an extremely good value product.
Also, could some of the changes to catering have been avoided if productivity improvements had been agreed 12 months ago?
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Netherlands
Age: 58
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would never think it would help CC posting on this forum that they would give in if the company would be in serious trouble over this dispute, so I wouldn't take these threats here too serious!
I would like to thank MissM since my view towards my collegues in the cabin is somewhat milder and I'm impressed with her calmness of trying to explain her point of view, eventhough we would never fully agree at least I would stil be able to look her straight in the eyes and not be upset!
I can see it must be a big thing to see your working conditions changed in a big way.
But please understand also it's not WW making this up by himself!
Our shareholders would like to get some of their money back (And we should be thankfull they still have some confidence) and they are the ones that will sent off WW if they don't agree with his point of view!
It's in my opinion the customers that chose for cheaper service based on the growing numbers of lowcost competition!
Again I have to repeat myself: "For all cabincrew nationwide it would be good if the unions would try to get a foothold at the doorstep of these competing airlines and this will benefit our company indirectly and the industry as a whole!
Once more, excuse my spelling as English is not my native language and I'm to lazy to download the spellingcheck!
I would like to thank MissM since my view towards my collegues in the cabin is somewhat milder and I'm impressed with her calmness of trying to explain her point of view, eventhough we would never fully agree at least I would stil be able to look her straight in the eyes and not be upset!
I can see it must be a big thing to see your working conditions changed in a big way.
But please understand also it's not WW making this up by himself!
Our shareholders would like to get some of their money back (And we should be thankfull they still have some confidence) and they are the ones that will sent off WW if they don't agree with his point of view!
It's in my opinion the customers that chose for cheaper service based on the growing numbers of lowcost competition!
Again I have to repeat myself: "For all cabincrew nationwide it would be good if the unions would try to get a foothold at the doorstep of these competing airlines and this will benefit our company indirectly and the industry as a whole!
Once more, excuse my spelling as English is not my native language and I'm to lazy to download the spellingcheck!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: leafy suburbs
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Slide Bustle
Absolutely!
Also take into consideration that Unite is an amalgum of unions, not least AMICUS, TGWU, B A S S A .....
So members of TGWU and AMICUS in BA are being SCREWED by their own mother union whilst it tries to prop up the T&C of BASSA.
Am I annoyed... no, I am F
g livid.
this union's politics is so detrimental to us all
Also take into consideration that Unite is an amalgum of unions, not least AMICUS, TGWU, B A S S A .....
So members of TGWU and AMICUS in BA are being SCREWED by their own mother union whilst it tries to prop up the T&C of BASSA.
Am I annoyed... no, I am F
g livid.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MissM
Its called productivity. Pilots agreed (odd word that, it comes from when a Union is prepared to NEGOTIATE with the company instead of attacking it) to increase productivity to allow the voluntary redundancies. I believe almost 1000 cabin crew took VR thus requiring the imposition, as BASSA couldn't negotiate its way out of an open paper bag, of increased productivity from fewer CC members.
Your mindset of 'I rule my little world and the rest of you can take a running jump if you think I'm going to help you' is symptomatic of the current plight BASSA find itself in.
Good luck in finding another job that pays as well for so little work and allows you the luxury of bidding for part time at 75%, a position that requires the company to employ 5 people instead of 4 to get the work donw and thus incurring, for each four 75% employees, extra NI contributions, extra training costs and extra uniform costs, all to keep you in the lifestyle to which you've become accustomed.
Remember, the customer comes first. The company MUST reorganise to survive into the future, the pain must be taken now and then services tweaked to provide the customer with a better service in the future.
IF BA goes down, and it very well could, like Brasilia and Alitalia, they will, probably, restart with a new AOC, new contracts and the ability to hire only those whom they wish to retain. As almost ALL OTHER DEPARTMENTS have agreed cost savings and are delivering, I wonder where the axe would fall? Bear in mind that flight crew are currently well under the bar of average earning for comparable airlines within Europe, quite a long way under in fact. Just look at Lufthansa, Air France, Iberia and KLM for starters.
Just something to ponder on.
As I have pointed out, I don't care whether I come through as selfish, complacent or any other appropiate adjective. I'm anything but lazy because if you cared to read what I have written you would see that I don't mind helping out every now and then but when it's becoming a habit I do mind.
Your mindset of 'I rule my little world and the rest of you can take a running jump if you think I'm going to help you' is symptomatic of the current plight BASSA find itself in.
Good luck in finding another job that pays as well for so little work and allows you the luxury of bidding for part time at 75%, a position that requires the company to employ 5 people instead of 4 to get the work donw and thus incurring, for each four 75% employees, extra NI contributions, extra training costs and extra uniform costs, all to keep you in the lifestyle to which you've become accustomed.
Remember, the customer comes first. The company MUST reorganise to survive into the future, the pain must be taken now and then services tweaked to provide the customer with a better service in the future.
IF BA goes down, and it very well could, like Brasilia and Alitalia, they will, probably, restart with a new AOC, new contracts and the ability to hire only those whom they wish to retain. As almost ALL OTHER DEPARTMENTS have agreed cost savings and are delivering, I wonder where the axe would fall? Bear in mind that flight crew are currently well under the bar of average earning for comparable airlines within Europe, quite a long way under in fact. Just look at Lufthansa, Air France, Iberia and KLM for starters.
Just something to ponder on.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Canterbury
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tagron
It probably sounds extremely selfish to say that I would rather see the company go bankrupt instead of letting WW and BF having their way through. And, by all means it's selfish to think that way. Maybe it's bitterness towards the management for wanting to change the way we work or for trying to destroy our union once and for all. Because that's exactly what's happening.
If you don't work for BA it will be very difficult to understand the mentality in the company. People wonder why we are suspicious? Management has constantly lied to us and given promises which they haven't kept. Everything they say should be taken with a pinch of salt and never trust them because sooner or later when you least expect it they will mess around with you big time.
Every other department has agreed to changes in their agreements. Congratulations. They are now blaiming us for being perverse for not wanting to come to an agreement. BA and UNITE have been in negotiations for almost a year and I won't deny that both parties are extremely far apart as to how achieve savings of around £150 million pounds. What is happening at the moment in the world is something which won't last forever. Recessions come. Recessions go. I don't agree with everything which UNITE has suggested. All savings to be paid back in 2 years time is one of them. A new disruption agreement being worth £60 million pounds solely is another one.
BASSA is not flawless. BA is not flawless either. BA wants to get back its control of the airline which BASSA has had for decades. It's understandable they are fighting against it, isn't it? I don't want BA to get all control either because I don't trust them for a second and they would probably shaft us. They already do every now and then to see if they can get away with it. Call me suspicious.
How do you think it feels when WW is constantly repeating how much we cost and comparing us to Virgin Atlantic? He makes us feel nothing as a burden to the company. I don't think morale in this company has been as low as ever since WW took over the post as CEO. Some will say that he was brought to the position only to destroy BASSA and obviously at any cost. He was even willing to risk a strike!
Why am I prepared to bring the company down? If you look at what WW and BF want to do in a long term perspective to cabin crew. The ballot was about imposition which is only a small part of our savings. It's not avoidable to discuss NewFleet which makes up the majority of the savings. It will be destructive and those who choose not to transfer and accept a new contract will have their career come to and end. Like it or not. WW has had this up his sleeve for two years and it has caused a lot stress. He said he would be willing to discuss this with UNITE. Why would he not go ahead with something which he has has planned for years? That's suspicious. If that's the game he wants to play and get rid of us expensive crew through this destructive system, and this will sound really awful, I would rather see the company capsize.
It probably sounds extremely selfish to say that I would rather see the company go bankrupt instead of letting WW and BF having their way through. And, by all means it's selfish to think that way. Maybe it's bitterness towards the management for wanting to change the way we work or for trying to destroy our union once and for all. Because that's exactly what's happening.
If you don't work for BA it will be very difficult to understand the mentality in the company. People wonder why we are suspicious? Management has constantly lied to us and given promises which they haven't kept. Everything they say should be taken with a pinch of salt and never trust them because sooner or later when you least expect it they will mess around with you big time.
Every other department has agreed to changes in their agreements. Congratulations. They are now blaiming us for being perverse for not wanting to come to an agreement. BA and UNITE have been in negotiations for almost a year and I won't deny that both parties are extremely far apart as to how achieve savings of around £150 million pounds. What is happening at the moment in the world is something which won't last forever. Recessions come. Recessions go. I don't agree with everything which UNITE has suggested. All savings to be paid back in 2 years time is one of them. A new disruption agreement being worth £60 million pounds solely is another one.
BASSA is not flawless. BA is not flawless either. BA wants to get back its control of the airline which BASSA has had for decades. It's understandable they are fighting against it, isn't it? I don't want BA to get all control either because I don't trust them for a second and they would probably shaft us. They already do every now and then to see if they can get away with it. Call me suspicious.
How do you think it feels when WW is constantly repeating how much we cost and comparing us to Virgin Atlantic? He makes us feel nothing as a burden to the company. I don't think morale in this company has been as low as ever since WW took over the post as CEO. Some will say that he was brought to the position only to destroy BASSA and obviously at any cost. He was even willing to risk a strike!
Why am I prepared to bring the company down? If you look at what WW and BF want to do in a long term perspective to cabin crew. The ballot was about imposition which is only a small part of our savings. It's not avoidable to discuss NewFleet which makes up the majority of the savings. It will be destructive and those who choose not to transfer and accept a new contract will have their career come to and end. Like it or not. WW has had this up his sleeve for two years and it has caused a lot stress. He said he would be willing to discuss this with UNITE. Why would he not go ahead with something which he has has planned for years? That's suspicious. If that's the game he wants to play and get rid of us expensive crew through this destructive system, and this will sound really awful, I would rather see the company capsize.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: uk
Age: 59
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reboot
How about - 90 day notice to all existing cabin crew followed by re-interview to affirm their suitability for their 'new' role. Successful applicants get 7 days to accept a new 'New Fleet' contract or gone in 90 days. Acceptance of new contract waives their right to take part in the ensuing strike by old contract crew as not relevant to new T&Cs.
Unsuccesful applicants (they already know who they are) also gone in 90 days. Crank up the recruitment for hiring laid off experienced crew from other airlines and job done - All new fleet contracts to be rolling twelve months to give the company the ability to get rid of those in the future who get 'turned' by the dark side as demonstrated by a few on this forum and nearly ALL on the CC forum.
Pension - Solved
BASSA - Solved
Future costs - Solved
Chain of Command / CRM issues - Solved
Crew Flexibilty / Disruption - Solved
Never been a better time - poor results, public support , City support - Can't see a downside, Can you?? I expect an announcement first week of January.
Unsuccesful applicants (they already know who they are) also gone in 90 days. Crank up the recruitment for hiring laid off experienced crew from other airlines and job done - All new fleet contracts to be rolling twelve months to give the company the ability to get rid of those in the future who get 'turned' by the dark side as demonstrated by a few on this forum and nearly ALL on the CC forum.
Pension - Solved
BASSA - Solved
Future costs - Solved
Chain of Command / CRM issues - Solved
Crew Flexibilty / Disruption - Solved
Never been a better time - poor results, public support , City support - Can't see a downside, Can you?? I expect an announcement first week of January.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Canterbury
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HiFlyer14
I don't think we would be very lonely on the picket line. Around 10 000 votes said otherwise. It doesn't really mean anything because surely some would back out and haven't got the guts but don't think that crew wouldn't be willing to strike because they would. Have you asked your colleagues why they voted yes if they had no intention to strike?
This is a question to you, SlideBustle and Tiramisu
You are all very against BASSA and some of you probably have resigned or thinking of doing so. Are you still accepting all those different allowances and payments (i.e. CAT, LDP, MSH unless they've changed terms) which you have on EF? Because if you are maybe you should remind yourselves about who have actually negotiated these for you... You don't agree with what the union is doing but you are accepting things they have negotiated for you?
I don't think we would be very lonely on the picket line. Around 10 000 votes said otherwise. It doesn't really mean anything because surely some would back out and haven't got the guts but don't think that crew wouldn't be willing to strike because they would. Have you asked your colleagues why they voted yes if they had no intention to strike?
This is a question to you, SlideBustle and Tiramisu
You are all very against BASSA and some of you probably have resigned or thinking of doing so. Are you still accepting all those different allowances and payments (i.e. CAT, LDP, MSH unless they've changed terms) which you have on EF? Because if you are maybe you should remind yourselves about who have actually negotiated these for you... You don't agree with what the union is doing but you are accepting things they have negotiated for you?
Join Date: May 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MissM said:-
BA wants to get back its control of the airline which BASSA has had for decades............
BA wants to get back its control of the airline which BASSA has had for decades............
This affair will not be over until BASSA have been completely emasculated. The solution, as proposed above, is 90 day's notice to all CC, and a recruitment drive amongst the many hundreds who would give their eye teeth to work for BA.
I find it almost beyond comprehension when I see the selfish, small-minded and pure greed of some posters (MissM included). You have terms and conditions far in excess of almost any other group of workers, yet you just whinge interminably about how hard you are done by.
Get real, or quit the job you hate so much and let someone more deserving have it.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Rugby
Posts: 883
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote Miss M:
Many companies are seriously damaged during recession, some cease to exist at all. Carried to it's (il)logical conclusion, it seems that your determination to preserve your current status will be at the cost of jobs of other employees (not just in BA) who rely on the business that BA creates. Not counting your own of course.
Recessions come. Recessions go.......I would rather see the company capsize.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BASSA is not flawless. BA is not flawless either. BA wants to get back its control of the airline which BASSA has had for decades...It's understandable they are fighting against it, isn't it?
BASSA has no right of 'control' of the company.
BASSA is there to protect it's members in the best way it can. That means negotiation; it certainly does not mean running BA to insolvency.
BASSA is not there to tell BA how it should run the company.
It is not there to have control of part of BA.
That is not the remit of any union.
You need to get real and understand what part a union has to play. It seems like you have swallowed BASSA leadership's rhetoric hook, line and sinker.
Every other department has agreed to changes in their agreements. Congratulations. They are now blaiming us for being perverse for not wanting to come to an agreement.
How do you think it feels when WW is constantly repeating how much we cost and comparing us to Virgin Atlantic? He makes us feel nothing as a burden to the company.
Why am I prepared to bring the company down? If you look at what WW and BF want to do in a long term perspective to cabin crew.
He said he would be willing to discuss this with UNITE. Why would he not go ahead with something which he has has planned for years? That's suspicious.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA wants to get back its control of the airline which BASSA has had for decades...It's understandable they are fighting against it, isn't it?
BASSA has a right to represent the views and concerns of its membership nothing more. They are neither in a position or qualified to do anything else. It does not have any rights to dictate to the board, the CEO or the management as to how to run the company.
BASSA have become power crazy.
Get rid of BASSA. End of story.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Out and About
Posts: 268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a question to you, SlideBustle and Tiramisu
You are all very against BASSA and some of you probably have resigned or thinking of doing so. Are you still accepting all those different allowances and payments (i.e. CAT, LDP, MSH unless they've changed terms) which you have on EF? Because if you are maybe you should remind yourselves about who have actually negotiated these for you... You don't agree with what the union is doing but you are accepting things they have negotiated for you?
You are all very against BASSA and some of you probably have resigned or thinking of doing so. Are you still accepting all those different allowances and payments (i.e. CAT, LDP, MSH unless they've changed terms) which you have on EF? Because if you are maybe you should remind yourselves about who have actually negotiated these for you... You don't agree with what the union is doing but you are accepting things they have negotiated for you?
Although I'm sure SlideBustle and Tiramisu are more than capable of replying for themselves, I'll just add my 2p's worth here .....
Your statement is not wrong.
However, since BA will not negotiate individual contracts with each and every one of us, those of us either disagreeing with, or not being members of either bassa or cc89, have no choice but to accept all the conditions, regardless of who thought of them.
Of course, the day might dawn when so many have left bassa/cc89 that they no longer represent the majority of crew, and could therefore be out of the loop entirely. That'd be my New Years wish anyway.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: england
Age: 62
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would hazzard a guess that the majority of part time cc (on 33%,50% or 75%) have partners who work.To them BA is not the main salary and thus they wouldn`t give a stuff if the airline went bust.My next door neighbour is a long haul purser (part time) and if she gets a trip she doesn`t like she just doesn`t do it.They have no thought for the people they inconcience whether colleagues or passengers.As she says she just does the job to get away from her kids ,sit on the beach and get paid to do it . She must hate the job as she is always complaining about the passengers.
This is the mentality that BA has to deal with.A shocking sickness record(still) especially amongst part time crew.Whether this boil can ever be lanced I don`t know but now has to be the opportunity.
I have just read the above post after submitting mine and confirms what I thought.These people just don`t care.And their animosity and loathing towards pilots is unbelievable.
This is the mentality that BA has to deal with.A shocking sickness record(still) especially amongst part time crew.Whether this boil can ever be lanced I don`t know but now has to be the opportunity.
I have just read the above post after submitting mine and confirms what I thought.These people just don`t care.And their animosity and loathing towards pilots is unbelievable.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots on the other hand, not so easy to find another role where a non-professional, non university educated person could earn the amount you do for doing so bloody little. Over paid, over pampered, over opinionated silly little boys club.
Have a think what you would earn as cabin crew with BA2 and then ask yourself who is over opinionated.
HF
PS: Degree educated professional who is out-earned by his wife.
Last edited by Human Factor; 1st Jan 2010 at 10:34.