British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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ah but human factor i have no intention of joining the race to the bottom...If you earn the same as an easyjet pilot then that is quite simply the self-knowledge that you as a non-professional, don't deserve much more!) OR damm poor trade unionism.
I love my job, certainly don't do it for the money (don't need the money!
) I enjoy other crew members, i enjoy flying, i enjoy foreign shopping, and i enjoy helping our passengers have a good start to their holiday.
I however know my worth. Even if you guys don't.
I love my job, certainly don't do it for the money (don't need the money!
) I enjoy other crew members, i enjoy flying, i enjoy foreign shopping, and i enjoy helping our passengers have a good start to their holiday. I however know my worth. Even if you guys don't.
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pvmw
I don't think BASSA should run BA but they should have an influence in our operation and conditions. As somebody mentioned a union is there for its members and to make sure they are treated fairly and work under good conditions.
Terms and conditions which I, and everyone else, were recruited to work along. Our union has fought very hard for these and once you start giving any of them up you won't get them back. Simple logics.
Dawdler
BASSA is willing to negotiate and they have been for almost a year!
As I said a couple of days I would want BA and BASSA to come to an agreement today if possible. Do you think any of us find this dispute amusing?
....and therein lies the crux of the problem. MissM thinks that BASSA should run BA, and the rest of the world think that is the purpose and responsibility of BA management.
You have terms and conditions far in excess of almost any other group of workers, yet you just whinge interminably about how hard you are done by.
Dawdler
Many companies are seriously damaged during recession, some cease to exist at all. Carried to it's (il)logical conclusion, it seems that your determination to preserve your current status will be at the cost of jobs of other employees (not just in BA) who rely on the business that BA creates. Not counting your own of course.
As I said a couple of days I would want BA and BASSA to come to an agreement today if possible. Do you think any of us find this dispute amusing?
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anotherthing
BA is a company whilst BASSA is a union. Thank you for clearing this out!
BASSA has a right of control of its members which are the cabin crew who operate on BA's aircraft. They are there to protect us and make sure that we are working under good conditions. This is what they are doing!
What do you mean by BASSA telling BA how to run the company? Are you referring to not letting an aircraft leave LHR with one crew down before speaking to BASSA and getting approval?
To clear one thing out. I have NOT swallowed BASSA's leadership or been convinced by them about what WW might do to this airline. I am capable of thinking for myself. As I have said I don't always agree with what BASSA does and our ballot on behalf of UNITE was a huge disappointment as well humiliation.
Another small minded conspiracy theory? BASSA has NOT convinced me about this. As I said I can think for myself and I don't think for a second that WW is willing to back down from his idea about creating NewFleet to achieve these savings. Not after years of planning. If somebody would think that he is would have to be somebody very naive.
BA is a company whilst BASSA is a union. Thank you for clearing this out!
BASSA has a right of control of its members which are the cabin crew who operate on BA's aircraft. They are there to protect us and make sure that we are working under good conditions. This is what they are doing!
What do you mean by BASSA telling BA how to run the company? Are you referring to not letting an aircraft leave LHR with one crew down before speaking to BASSA and getting approval?
To clear one thing out. I have NOT swallowed BASSA's leadership or been convinced by them about what WW might do to this airline. I am capable of thinking for myself. As I have said I don't always agree with what BASSA does and our ballot on behalf of UNITE was a huge disappointment as well humiliation.
Another small minded conspiracy theory? BASSA has NOT convinced me about this. As I said I can think for myself and I don't think for a second that WW is willing to back down from his idea about creating NewFleet to achieve these savings. Not after years of planning. If somebody would think that he is would have to be somebody very naive.
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wobble2plank
I'm glad it made you chuckle. Maybe you needed it.
I don't disagree with you that the purpose of a union is to represent its members and make sure that they are fairly treated and work under good conditions. And, isn't this what BASSA is doing? Again, I don't always agree with BASSA. As I said they are not flawless. Nobody or nothing is.
Maybe they have!
Made me chuckle.
BASSA has a right to represent the views and concerns of its membership nothing more. They are neither in a position or qualified to do anything else. It does not have any rights to dictate to the board, the CEO or the management as to how to run the company.
BASSA have become power crazy.
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TorC
Unfortunately they won't but it would be interesting to see how many of those anti-BASSA people would actually back down from our pay structure system and make their own deal or whether it's fine to accept it and yet moan about the union.
You say that so many have left BASSA and Amicus. How many have left?
Although I'm sure SlideBustle and Tiramisu are more than capable of replying for themselves, I'll just add my 2p's worth here .....
Your statement is not wrong.
However, since BA will not negotiate individual contracts with each and every one of us, those of us either disagreeing with, or not being members of either bassa or cc89, have no choice but to accept all the conditions, regardless of who thought of them.
Of course, the day might dawn when so many have left bassa/cc89 that they no longer represent the majority of crew, and could therefore be out of the loop entirely. That'd be my New Years wish anyway.
Your statement is not wrong.
However, since BA will not negotiate individual contracts with each and every one of us, those of us either disagreeing with, or not being members of either bassa or cc89, have no choice but to accept all the conditions, regardless of who thought of them.
Of course, the day might dawn when so many have left bassa/cc89 that they no longer represent the majority of crew, and could therefore be out of the loop entirely. That'd be my New Years wish anyway.
You say that so many have left BASSA and Amicus. How many have left?
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7Heroes
A shocking sickness record amonst part-time crew? How do you know this? Have you got any proof to support this?
In case you didn't know we have a system namely EG300 which would pick up any pattern which could indicate that you go sick for specific trips or times of the year.
Animosity and loathing towards pilots? Maybe you should develop that!
This is the mentality that BA has to deal with.A shocking sickness record(still) especially amongst part time crew.Whether this boil can ever be lanced I don`t know but now has to be the opportunity.
In case you didn't know we have a system namely EG300 which would pick up any pattern which could indicate that you go sick for specific trips or times of the year.
And their animosity and loathing towards pilots is unbelievable.
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Dear MissM, you swing between quite reasonable and quite militant by the day/hour. I'm glad you have re-stated your views on BASSA at 17:48 {Post 897, now I can see it again!].
From what we have read on here, the answer would seem to be YES. Some posters [apparently claiming to be BA CC, since my status as a J-class pax has been challenged] seem positively overjoyed with the prospect of disrupting passengers and damaging [fatally or otherwise] BA.
With such extremes of views, it would seem inevitable that Mr Walsh will impose the "Reagan Option" and start from scratch. At which point all LHR CC will be infinitely worse off. I really don't think you all deserve that.
As I said a couple of days I would want BA and BASSA to come to an agreement today if possible. Do you think any of us find this dispute amusing?
With such extremes of views, it would seem inevitable that Mr Walsh will impose the "Reagan Option" and start from scratch. At which point all LHR CC will be infinitely worse off. I really don't think you all deserve that.
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Loathing towards pilots? And you think pilots have nothing against cabin crew?
I do have a lot of trouble with an overbearing Union who disrupts the company operations at every conceivable opportunity and who refuses to acknowledge that we no longer operate in the 1980's and have to accept change to operate in the now.
And, isn't this what BASSA is doing? Again, I don't always agree with BASSA.
Public opinion is dead set against this one. The fact that BASSA cried fould about leaking crew wages to the press when in reality the details came from the CAA sums up how much thought BASSA put into their actions.
If killing BASSA gets rid of over opinionated idiots like Keirhardy then at least that will do our industry a favour.
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TorC
Unfortunately they won't but it would be interesting to see how many of those anti-BASSA people would actually back down from our pay structure system and make their own deal or whether it's fine to accept it and yet moan about the union.
You say that so many have left BASSA and Amicus. How many have left?
Unfortunately they won't but it would be interesting to see how many of those anti-BASSA people would actually back down from our pay structure system and make their own deal or whether it's fine to accept it and yet moan about the union.
You say that so many have left BASSA and Amicus. How many have left?
I did not say that so many have left BASSA and Amicus. I have no knowledge of how many may have done so.
Last edited by TorC; 31st Dec 2009 at 17:24. Reason: clarity
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wobble2plank that is the answer i would expect from someone who does not have the vocabulary, nous, or ability to argue a point...silly little man.
and how very odd, you call me over opinonated. I have made 4 postings on this matter to your some 1000 odd..
and how very odd, you call me over opinonated. I have made 4 postings on this matter to your some 1000 odd..
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Keirhardie - disgusting post, even though you ''like to give pax the best start to their holiday'' - do you think striking gives a great start to a pax holiday. 
No I don't think so either, anyway it sounds as if you have been sent from the other ''forums'' to troll won't waste too much time!
MissM - I accept the allowances because I have no other choice. Do I enjoy the allowances? Of course I do, thank you BASSA for negotiating them in the past! You have missed the point there. I have said on here I would consider hourly pay etc etc... new variable pay for New Fleet/Contract. I have also said that I would accept the Fixed Monthly Travel Payment to replace my CATs (personally I think CATs are something that could be sacraficed) long day payments etc... Something the union will not accept. They don;t mind the new contract for new recruits oh of course not as long as BA don't touch their pay or threaten themselves a la New Fleet. Ironically they are being short sighted as if BA push through with New Fleet but BASSA have not accepted to FMTP then you may be right to worry about your Boxes etc. Bill has said the payment is not for the company but is actually an OPTIONAL payment should you feel worried you may be missing out on your boxes and make your pay more consistent. You still get your meal payments, therefore the longer the trip, the more meal payments you achieve (in general - it's not a perfect system when on SH you may be 5 minutes off a meal payment and the same length of duty day that reports slightly later gets 2 payments!)
What we have to realise is that we are first off not indispensable. Also, let's say New Fleet starts up within the next year or 2 on pretty much identical T&Cs to LGW fleet... only difference would be the routes. You would probably be safe to assume some LGW crew would transfer over to enjoy the wider choice of routes, they would have nothing to lose as T&Cs would be pretty much the same (may even be better who knows!!) you would probably get some LHR and LGW crew who would accept the ''carrots'' of promotion as you call it. I would!
EF and WW would still exist, however if the union had negotiated properly, accepting some big changes, then current crew would be protected with a payment, it could even be incorporated in your basic or be made contractual. Also the union may have agreed to a list of routes to go over first... Hopefully a good mix of high earning and low earning to ensure old fleets are not having all the good trips starving. What will you lose??? HOWEVER if BA lose patience and issue 90 days notice (perfectly legal!) and we are all put on a New Fleet type contract, what will you lose?? Equally IF this strike causes BA to go bust (BA is certainly not in a really strong untouchable position!) then what will you lose?? It is tough out there and not particularly the easiest climate to find a new job easily!
Please strikers, THINK. You may not have much to lose, particularly if you have 2 successful internet business or a lovely home with fab partner in LA to fall back on, and just use BA to fund a rather lovely lifestyle (as it is - for you longhaulers where else could you be in LA one week, New York the next??) If you were out of a job, it may actually not be a loss to you, ''oh well no more shopping in New York and getting paid for it for me'' but for a LARGE proportion, no, majority of us it will be a huge loss!! If it came to it I would even rather be on New Fleet than be out of a job. Although I would rather not be on NF as main crew, it would probably be better than being out of a job. It is NOT easy finding a new job in a recession... there are many other unemployed ex crew who have passion for the job and would love to the job for less!! SO before you go on about ''Willie's'' regime, please get a sense of perspective and WAKE UP, before it is too late.
EDITED TO ADD. Happy New Year to everyone!!! Hope 2010 can be a year for a new lease of life into our workforce and some common sense! The optimist in me says ''let 2010 be the year BA grows and recovers to be at a better place for the future - start New First lol!!'' Very corny I know!!
No I don't think so either, anyway it sounds as if you have been sent from the other ''forums'' to troll won't waste too much time!MissM - I accept the allowances because I have no other choice. Do I enjoy the allowances? Of course I do, thank you BASSA for negotiating them in the past! You have missed the point there. I have said on here I would consider hourly pay etc etc... new variable pay for New Fleet/Contract. I have also said that I would accept the Fixed Monthly Travel Payment to replace my CATs (personally I think CATs are something that could be sacraficed) long day payments etc... Something the union will not accept. They don;t mind the new contract for new recruits oh of course not as long as BA don't touch their pay or threaten themselves a la New Fleet. Ironically they are being short sighted as if BA push through with New Fleet but BASSA have not accepted to FMTP then you may be right to worry about your Boxes etc. Bill has said the payment is not for the company but is actually an OPTIONAL payment should you feel worried you may be missing out on your boxes and make your pay more consistent. You still get your meal payments, therefore the longer the trip, the more meal payments you achieve (in general - it's not a perfect system when on SH you may be 5 minutes off a meal payment and the same length of duty day that reports slightly later gets 2 payments!)
What we have to realise is that we are first off not indispensable. Also, let's say New Fleet starts up within the next year or 2 on pretty much identical T&Cs to LGW fleet... only difference would be the routes. You would probably be safe to assume some LGW crew would transfer over to enjoy the wider choice of routes, they would have nothing to lose as T&Cs would be pretty much the same (may even be better who knows!!) you would probably get some LHR and LGW crew who would accept the ''carrots'' of promotion as you call it. I would!
EF and WW would still exist, however if the union had negotiated properly, accepting some big changes, then current crew would be protected with a payment, it could even be incorporated in your basic or be made contractual. Also the union may have agreed to a list of routes to go over first... Hopefully a good mix of high earning and low earning to ensure old fleets are not having all the good trips starving. What will you lose??? HOWEVER if BA lose patience and issue 90 days notice (perfectly legal!) and we are all put on a New Fleet type contract, what will you lose?? Equally IF this strike causes BA to go bust (BA is certainly not in a really strong untouchable position!) then what will you lose?? It is tough out there and not particularly the easiest climate to find a new job easily!
Please strikers, THINK. You may not have much to lose, particularly if you have 2 successful internet business or a lovely home with fab partner in LA to fall back on, and just use BA to fund a rather lovely lifestyle (as it is - for you longhaulers where else could you be in LA one week, New York the next??) If you were out of a job, it may actually not be a loss to you, ''oh well no more shopping in New York and getting paid for it for me'' but for a LARGE proportion, no, majority of us it will be a huge loss!! If it came to it I would even rather be on New Fleet than be out of a job. Although I would rather not be on NF as main crew, it would probably be better than being out of a job. It is NOT easy finding a new job in a recession... there are many other unemployed ex crew who have passion for the job and would love to the job for less!! SO before you go on about ''Willie's'' regime, please get a sense of perspective and WAKE UP, before it is too late.
EDITED TO ADD. Happy New Year to everyone!!! Hope 2010 can be a year for a new lease of life into our workforce and some common sense! The optimist in me says ''let 2010 be the year BA grows and recovers to be at a better place for the future - start New First lol!!'' Very corny I know!!
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wobble2plank that is the answer i would expect from someone who does not have the vocabulary, nous, or ability to argue a point...silly little man. and how very odd, you call me over opinonated. I have made 4 postings on this matter to your some 1000 odd..
Please inform those on CF or the BASSA forum that you have managed, in your 4 posts, to cover topics and arguments that have been covered in full months ago.
Just as an aside, I have 2 degrees neither of which has anything to do with flying, both of which, whilst academically more tricky than an ATPL, were of no more use in getting jobs than proof that I had completed further education.
To start a law degree requires no previous qualifications. To become a Lawyer requires a law degree.
To start an ATPL course requires no previous qualifications. To become a commercial pilot requires an ATPL.
Your point is?
To everyone else have a great New Year.
From the 'little man'.
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To BA crew:You have no idea how lucky you are and I cant believe you're risking your company and job just because you have to work with one less crew onboard.. it just amazes me..I did 11 months on BA worldwide and let me tell you that I have never had such a good life and you're so fortunate and it's shame you just cant realize that! It's not that hard work and there was not any problem to do it when someone went sick in London and you had to leave without that crew.. but, still you'd get the payment for it. Maybe that's the difference.. I don't know..I came from Qatar Airways as cabin senior (like purser) to BA and if you think work is hard at BA maybe you should go down there.. let me tell you.. we had no unions to protect us.. nothing! It was a take it or leave it mentality and even our CEO and crew manager said if we dont like it we just have to leave because there'll be thousands of people waiting to take our job. We weren't that valuable to them..We did shorthaul and longhaul together and many times even with minimum rest between flights! We could do a night flight from Singapore to Doha, minimum rest and then do a four sector day intra-gulf which was sometimes over 12 hours long! On that four sector day sometimes we didnt even get off the aircraft.. and.. we only got paid for the flight hours! No meal allowance either as we got food on the plane..Go sick because you dont like a trip? If you do that at QR they will sack you just like that.. even if you are new or if you have worked there for 10 years.. they dont care. There's always people waiting to take your job.Crew rest? We never got that.. I once did a Dhaka which was delayed and turned out to be 16 hours.. no overtime pay, nothing. We got paid for the flight hours which was like 7 hours or so.. back to Doha and minimum rest before flight to Casablanca..Working one down? At QR.. if they couldnt find any standby crew flight would leave anyway as long as legal.. once I did a 30 minute flight to Bahrain on a full A320 with 4 crew!! 6 was standard.. Full service needed to be done or we'd be in trouble..Okay, maybe you cant compare BA to QR but the point is that you are so fortunate to work for them. You have some of the best t&c in the industry.. you even get crew rest on a flight to Cairo and sometimes over an hour to New York.What's the problem with your CSD working in the cabin? CSD at QR does it.. EK does it.. I think many airlines in Europe do it! I had a very good time at BA but I think the problem is that many crew are so comfortable in their jobs and always had the union to go to.. so many senior crew who do the same position over and over.. I remember a guy who'd been doing the same position for over 10 years.. and, on 767 no 5 was always the last position to go because it was hard work in Club, doing PA, looking after flight crew and all.. crew on 767 who'd been flying for a very long time and would always avoid it! It was also the same on 747 and 777.. always same positions which would get left last and most of the time the toughest ones..So I think working with one crew member less is not the end of the world.. even less to strike about.. many people would love to do your job even with less t&c and I'm one of them and still waiting for BA to call and ask me to come back. And I will take it and many of us ex-temps will!
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Can I just ask. Does anyone know if the unions are in talks with BA at the moment or are they just going to waste 2 months balloting then announcing strike action??? When the injunction was announced the Unions and BA started talking again. If they are not talking I will hazard a guess that it is the unions stubborness refusing!
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AFAIK - UNITE is not in talks with the company as BA has decided not to communicate with them!
Lizanne Malone makes me sick - also those of you who are trudging behind her backside trusting every little word that comes out of her - crew over at CF treating her like a queen - can't you realise she made a huge mistake in the ballot and yet you have placed your future in her hands?
Lizanne Malone - I know that you are reading this - when will you realise it's over and maybe it's time to admit to yourself that you have failed? Do BA and its crew a favour - pack your bag - hand in your resignation - and for god sake leave!
Lizanne Malone makes me sick - also those of you who are trudging behind her backside trusting every little word that comes out of her - crew over at CF treating her like a queen - can't you realise she made a huge mistake in the ballot and yet you have placed your future in her hands?
Lizanne Malone - I know that you are reading this - when will you realise it's over and maybe it's time to admit to yourself that you have failed? Do BA and its crew a favour - pack your bag - hand in your resignation - and for god sake leave!
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TorCs Happy New Year Quiz - (sorry, no prizes, due to recession)
1) What is the connection between:
A) Southampton FCs Official Historian
B) £75,000 per annum
2) Jane lives near a very busy airport and spends £1Million per day flying
all over the world in expensive, but ageing jet planes. She has £2Billion
in her piggy bank but owes John £3.7Billion, which he wants on his 65th
birthday.
How long (to the nearest month) until Jane can no longer afford her
glamorous jet-set lifestyle?
3) Refering to Question 2: Jane has asked her friends to help her find
some ways of saving money. But her friends have refused to help and
have stopped talking to her. Should Jane:
A) get new friends
B) tell her friends not to worry, she only made it all up for a laugh
4) Liza N McAlone is afflicted with SIS: Self Importance Syndrome. She
tells lies to people, some of whom used to work with her. Her boss
found out and warned her that she should not have told those lies. But
she didn't want to hear what her boss was saying. Her boss asked
a Judge to decide if Liza was right or wrong. The Judge said that
Liza was wrong. Liza threw a big party (which even made the
newspaper front pages) and said that she had achieved a huge victory.
What IS wrong with Liza?
5) If X people take Y minutes to complete task Z, how much longer will it
take X-1 people to complete the same task?
6) If the answer was "NO", who was asking the question to who?
7) A secret poll has revealed that a growing number of people are
worried by onions, and their effect on air travellers. What can be done
to minimise the effect of onions, and is there an organic alternative to
them?
8) An Irishman and a Spaniard walked into a bar. The Spaniard said
"ouch". What did the Irishman say?
With all best wishes for a BASSAless New Year
TorC
A) Southampton FCs Official Historian
B) £75,000 per annum
2) Jane lives near a very busy airport and spends £1Million per day flying
all over the world in expensive, but ageing jet planes. She has £2Billion
in her piggy bank but owes John £3.7Billion, which he wants on his 65th
birthday.
How long (to the nearest month) until Jane can no longer afford her
glamorous jet-set lifestyle?
3) Refering to Question 2: Jane has asked her friends to help her find
some ways of saving money. But her friends have refused to help and
have stopped talking to her. Should Jane:
A) get new friends
B) tell her friends not to worry, she only made it all up for a laugh
4) Liza N McAlone is afflicted with SIS: Self Importance Syndrome. She
tells lies to people, some of whom used to work with her. Her boss
found out and warned her that she should not have told those lies. But
she didn't want to hear what her boss was saying. Her boss asked
a Judge to decide if Liza was right or wrong. The Judge said that
Liza was wrong. Liza threw a big party (which even made the
newspaper front pages) and said that she had achieved a huge victory.
What IS wrong with Liza?
5) If X people take Y minutes to complete task Z, how much longer will it
take X-1 people to complete the same task?
6) If the answer was "NO", who was asking the question to who?
7) A secret poll has revealed that a growing number of people are
worried by onions, and their effect on air travellers. What can be done
to minimise the effect of onions, and is there an organic alternative to
them?
8) An Irishman and a Spaniard walked into a bar. The Spaniard said
"ouch". What did the Irishman say?
With all best wishes for a BASSAless New Year
TorC