British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
It's not about individuals.............
This dispute is not about individuals.
WW has the full backing of the BA Board and the shareholders.
Bassa has full backing of its members - 92% of an 80% turnout is more than Scargill ever got.
Will posters please stop going on about individuals!!!!
It is about systemic power. Who has the power and authority in this organsation to decide what goes on??
Just out of interest, if BA does go in to "pre-pack administration", the Pensions fund administrator will have most of the power - and they are actually completely unable to guarantee either the pensions in payment, or those "earnt" so far. ...........Go talk to the Trustees of failed schemes.
WW has the full backing of the BA Board and the shareholders.
Bassa has full backing of its members - 92% of an 80% turnout is more than Scargill ever got.
Will posters please stop going on about individuals!!!!
It is about systemic power. Who has the power and authority in this organsation to decide what goes on??
Just out of interest, if BA does go in to "pre-pack administration", the Pensions fund administrator will have most of the power - and they are actually completely unable to guarantee either the pensions in payment, or those "earnt" so far. ...........Go talk to the Trustees of failed schemes.
Junior trash
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Those things should be agreed through negotiations and not impositions.
Maybe if we had another CEO BA wouldn't have had to face all those fines and not to mention how much that T5 last year cost.
How much did T5 cost last year? I suspect it actually brought in millions upon millions of extra custom.
And before you bring up fuel hedging, it isnt supposed to be profitable. Historically BA did make small profits over the long term, but its really just insurance. For info The 09/10 financial year will be a good year for BAs fuel hedging, more than making up for 08/9.
Facts Miss M, not just rumour.
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Ancient Observer is right.
One day it will come down to a battle till only one stands.
Perhaps both have started the skirmishes to reduce the other's strength already....
MissM is wrong in thinking her current union is positioning itself for negotiations. I agree this is not and has not recently been the case, Bassa is positioning itself for the short term benefit (see below for the older CC staff) and kudos and for the long term battle till death.
The strange thing is this:
If the union wins, everybody will be out of a job within BA (as the company will not be able to compete in a world market) and only some will find renewed employment with Newco-BA. Newco-BA will NEVER accept the unions in their current format as representatives for the much younger, lower paid, eager to please CC.
If BA wins it will depend on how bloody the war was as to whether some will retain their jobs.
Seems to me the best assurance to keep the job is to go with the company and not the union.
Of course for those older cc staff about to retire in a year or two, their priorities lie with gaining as much short term benefit as possible so here it is:
It is all a conflict between generations!
One day it will come down to a battle till only one stands.
Perhaps both have started the skirmishes to reduce the other's strength already....
MissM is wrong in thinking her current union is positioning itself for negotiations. I agree this is not and has not recently been the case, Bassa is positioning itself for the short term benefit (see below for the older CC staff) and kudos and for the long term battle till death.
The strange thing is this:
If the union wins, everybody will be out of a job within BA (as the company will not be able to compete in a world market) and only some will find renewed employment with Newco-BA. Newco-BA will NEVER accept the unions in their current format as representatives for the much younger, lower paid, eager to please CC.
If BA wins it will depend on how bloody the war was as to whether some will retain their jobs.
Seems to me the best assurance to keep the job is to go with the company and not the union.
Of course for those older cc staff about to retire in a year or two, their priorities lie with gaining as much short term benefit as possible so here it is:
It is all a conflict between generations!
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Originally Posted by buter
Business travellers in Jersey will stay with BA due to the schedule, aircraft capacity, the ability to make up the schedule after large scale disruption by utilising larger aircraft and the business/club lounges.
Corporate travel assistants would, of course, be well advised to avoid booking during known strike windows - other than that, saying that the island's companies and financial institutions will be avoiding BA until further notice is pure cr@p. The alternatives to BA, Aviation Beauport not withstanding, are not really suitable for corporate travel, IHMO (you may chose to argue this point but it is merely my opinion based on facts and experiences flying on and off this rock for far longer than I would care to remember).
Feel free to run our company down. When the worst happens and BA shuts down you can bask in your superior knowledge whilst you try and decide between betting your important meeting in London on a Dash-8 or a Shorts 360.
By all means, let your views be known here, good or bad. However, I can't help but think that there is something seriously wrong with 2 different people who claim to be Jersey businessmen chosing to spend their (presumably) valuable free time on a pilot forum. Sad, really.
Corporate travel assistants would, of course, be well advised to avoid booking during known strike windows - other than that, saying that the island's companies and financial institutions will be avoiding BA until further notice is pure cr@p. The alternatives to BA, Aviation Beauport not withstanding, are not really suitable for corporate travel, IHMO (you may chose to argue this point but it is merely my opinion based on facts and experiences flying on and off this rock for far longer than I would care to remember).
Feel free to run our company down. When the worst happens and BA shuts down you can bask in your superior knowledge whilst you try and decide between betting your important meeting in London on a Dash-8 or a Shorts 360.
By all means, let your views be known here, good or bad. However, I can't help but think that there is something seriously wrong with 2 different people who claim to be Jersey businessmen chosing to spend their (presumably) valuable free time on a pilot forum. Sad, really.
1. "We will stay with BA due to the schedule ... "
Would that be the BA schedule that no longer does JER-LHR, thus requiring a night-stop at either LGW or LHR before onward to the USA? Yawn and more £££. I will accept there is the potential of resilience with the BA scale of operations ... provided the CC are not on strike, of course. Which, IIRC, is where we came in.
2. "... be well advised to avoid booking during known strike windows".
All strikes will be pre-notified? Oh good. Any plans for April? Or do I just hope for the best? Or do I consult BASSA before I make any private or corporate plans?
3. "... you try and decide between betting your important meeting in London on a Dash-8 or a Shorts 360."
*cough* ... neither will reach IAD.
4. "... there is something seriously wrong with 2 different people who claim to be Jersey businessmen chosing to spend their (presumably) valuable free time on a pilot forum. Sad, really."
I'm quite happy to validate my credentials.
It also happens to be [a] Christmas, [b] an important issue to some of us, and [c] I don't have to work every day, which is nice.
In a small nutshell, I'm not running your company down. Some people are, by making it a lottery as to whether the flights the paying customers book will actually happen. Please understand that I have flown BA relatively happily in the past - but there is no point in spending my, or my company's, money on flights in the future that may, or may not, happen.
And it is THAT reality that some of the militant CC need to understand.
We don't actually NEED BA for most of the time.
I can get LHR-IAD with CO, UA or VS instead of BA. Simples.
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Hotel Mode
I know WW was not the CEO at the time but he has been here for the past few years and done some strange things.
Facts remain that the management is to blame for price fixing, fuel hedging and T5 (around £20 million pounds?). BA is getting fines almost every month. Hundreds of million of pounds in total. How much do you think WW's statement about BA fighting for its survival would have cost?
Maybe somebody could also explain why our saving targets have changed from one week to another? First it was £60m and now it's gone up to £140m.
I know WW was not the CEO at the time but he has been here for the past few years and done some strange things.
Facts remain that the management is to blame for price fixing, fuel hedging and T5 (around £20 million pounds?). BA is getting fines almost every month. Hundreds of million of pounds in total. How much do you think WW's statement about BA fighting for its survival would have cost?
Maybe somebody could also explain why our saving targets have changed from one week to another? First it was £60m and now it's gone up to £140m.
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@ MissM ... you may not be very impressed with Mr Walsh. I have been unimpressed with some [many] of my bosses in the past. But then I didn't know everything they knew, or have access to all the facts, and may not have been intelligent enough to understand them anyway.
The fact remains, IMO, that the LAST thing BA needs is IA, on top of all the other problems facing the airline industry.
The fact remains, IMO, that the LAST thing BA needs is IA, on top of all the other problems facing the airline industry.
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Miss M, IIRC most of the price fines (fuel surcharges) pre-date Willie Walsh, going back to 2004. The cost of this BASSA debacle/circus will be far more than a day or so of T5 chaos, which granted does ultimately sit at WW's door (worth pointing out now runs fabulously and most efficient/customer friendly at LHR).
However, the long term upside of ridding the airline of such a scargill-ite, horrid and vindictive parasite union that has no respect whatsoever for customers (being one of those terribly affected by your snow tantrum at Prestwick in Feb) is huge and will be applauded by customers and many staff alike !! Good riddance to the end of the BASSA bullies.........you will have no public support whatsoever.......
However, the long term upside of ridding the airline of such a scargill-ite, horrid and vindictive parasite union that has no respect whatsoever for customers (being one of those terribly affected by your snow tantrum at Prestwick in Feb) is huge and will be applauded by customers and many staff alike !! Good riddance to the end of the BASSA bullies.........you will have no public support whatsoever.......
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On the oft repeated comment about the T5 opening impacting on BA's current results, BASSA can't have it both ways.
BASSA claimed that 1 million ruined Christmas holidays would soon be forgotten by passengers, but the T5 opening, which was undoubtedly a disaster, is still impacting on BA's results, nearly two years after the event.
BA has seen significant improvements in punctuality and baggage handling since the opening, which in itself must have saved the airline tens of millions in delayed baggage compensation etc. Plus there are the other benefits that are generally working well, such as much improved lounges for premium passengers and the majority of transfers now don't require a change in terminals. Also, BAA has take its fair share of the blame for the opening - it was responsible for many of the problems in the first days, ie not taking the baggage handling system software out of test mode.
By far the biggest management failure which has got BA to where it is today is not tackling the underlying problem of inefficient working practices and poor productivity. Hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds must have been lost over the past 10+ years because of inefficient working practices and union intransigence.
In the past, BA has dealt with this by shrinking the airline to profitability by focusing on high yield ex-LHR traffic (and ceding the regions and most of LGW to the LCC airlines in the process) and going for the easier options such as cutting the catering budget. Now that the high yield traffic has gone, BA simply has no other option but to tackle the underlying problems of its cost base and working practices.
Anyone who can't see this needs a double expresso.
BASSA claimed that 1 million ruined Christmas holidays would soon be forgotten by passengers, but the T5 opening, which was undoubtedly a disaster, is still impacting on BA's results, nearly two years after the event.
BA has seen significant improvements in punctuality and baggage handling since the opening, which in itself must have saved the airline tens of millions in delayed baggage compensation etc. Plus there are the other benefits that are generally working well, such as much improved lounges for premium passengers and the majority of transfers now don't require a change in terminals. Also, BAA has take its fair share of the blame for the opening - it was responsible for many of the problems in the first days, ie not taking the baggage handling system software out of test mode.
By far the biggest management failure which has got BA to where it is today is not tackling the underlying problem of inefficient working practices and poor productivity. Hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds must have been lost over the past 10+ years because of inefficient working practices and union intransigence.
In the past, BA has dealt with this by shrinking the airline to profitability by focusing on high yield ex-LHR traffic (and ceding the regions and most of LGW to the LCC airlines in the process) and going for the easier options such as cutting the catering budget. Now that the high yield traffic has gone, BA simply has no other option but to tackle the underlying problems of its cost base and working practices.
Anyone who can't see this needs a double expresso.
Last edited by LD12986; 28th Dec 2009 at 23:47.
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Wonker:
Where do you get -30% from? I've looked back through all the various missives from the company and BASSA and the only one offering a pay cut was BASSA? The magical 2.61% that they stole from BALPA without even knowing how the figure was derived!
Unite also confirmed that the current IA was about Imposition only, not 'New Fleet'. BA agreed to pay protect current crew from loss of earnings with the inception of new fleet.
So, where does the mythical -30% come from?
If you joined knowing the terms and conditions and then they change by say -30% wouldn't you be unhappy thats what Villie and Billy want to do to us.
Unite also confirmed that the current IA was about Imposition only, not 'New Fleet'. BA agreed to pay protect current crew from loss of earnings with the inception of new fleet.
So, where does the mythical -30% come from?
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Spot on LD, like you say, two days of disruption at T5 and BASSA still harping on about it nearly two years later, despite it now working well (albeit still with many restrictive/Spanish practices). Yet 12 days of chaos and a million Christmases ruined, all WW's fault and fairy godmother BASSA looking after pax interests (and pax will forget before too long) !!! They really are a law unto themselves and have brainwashed so many - it is quite scary actually.......uhhhh hello ????
also, irritates the hell out of me, who was it, on a show of hands, who took the position not to negotiate any more with BA ??? who now want to negotiate, now the deadline has well and truly passed ?? unbelievable.
also, irritates the hell out of me, who was it, on a show of hands, who took the position not to negotiate any more with BA ??? who now want to negotiate, now the deadline has well and truly passed ?? unbelievable.
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hear, hear LD12986, jolly well stated!
Some of the bassa members of course are in denial and will never accept this as the factual truth, but those who have studied anything like economics or read up on the subject will concur!
Some of the bassa members of course are in denial and will never accept this as the factual truth, but those who have studied anything like economics or read up on the subject will concur!
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VV, just resign, BA would be a better place without bitter people like you, if you hate it and "Villie" so much, do your blood pressure a favour. You will not be missed.........ask an unemployed crew member just how selfish you are being.........
Last edited by TOM100; 28th Dec 2009 at 18:40.
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VV
Miss M and myself don't want Wizz Air wages and are standing with our union on this fight against greedy little Villie and his band of ex Post Office henchmen
1. I wouldn t associate yourself too much with MissM, she may follow the Bassa line but certainly has more style and balance than you have
2. I much prefer the friendly customer oriented service minded Wizz Air stewardesses than the type of stewardess you represent.
Miss M and myself don't want Wizz Air wages and are standing with our union on this fight against greedy little Villie and his band of ex Post Office henchmen
1. I wouldn t associate yourself too much with MissM, she may follow the Bassa line but certainly has more style and balance than you have
2. I much prefer the friendly customer oriented service minded Wizz Air stewardesses than the type of stewardess you represent.
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Wonker,
Aside from your usual asinine diatribe, where does this drastic cut in your wages down to Wizz Air (Who, incidentally, are considered well paid when taken against average earnings in their home country) levels actually come from?
2.61% was a figure deduced by BAPLA after careful consideration as to the financial impact of removing annual incremental pay coupled with a reduction of 25% in the hourly flying pay. Where did BASSA dream up this figure I wonder? Perhaps they thought of 'jumping on the band wagon' in exactly the same way they did with the pensions 'negotiations'.
Carry on trolling. It is quite amusing.
Aside from your usual asinine diatribe, where does this drastic cut in your wages down to Wizz Air (Who, incidentally, are considered well paid when taken against average earnings in their home country) levels actually come from?
2.61% was a figure deduced by BAPLA after careful consideration as to the financial impact of removing annual incremental pay coupled with a reduction of 25% in the hourly flying pay. Where did BASSA dream up this figure I wonder? Perhaps they thought of 'jumping on the band wagon' in exactly the same way they did with the pensions 'negotiations'.
Carry on trolling. It is quite amusing.
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Originally Posted by vanHorck
2. I much prefer the friendly customer oriented service minded Wizz Air stewardesses than the type of stewardess you represent.
And delivers proper J-class cabin service.
I will admit that Sir Richard Branson's Frequent Flyer arrangements are a apparently a little less beneficial than BA's, but I guess I'll get used to it. At least his company operates effectively from a pax POV.
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Yes, VV, MM, please do enlighten what science BASSA used to derive their suggested 2.61% pay cut (that none of their membership were consulted on) - how did they come up with that figure ?? Am genuinely interested.......am sure there is some complex arithmetic explanation behind it.........
Like someone said earlier, config on 744, a few years ago, used to be 14F, 55J, 332M, now about 50-80 pax less, and still same service (or less) - one (or two) crew members less is not that big a deal.......unions would not even agree to a hot towel in WT+ threatening IA over it !!!
Like someone said earlier, config on 744, a few years ago, used to be 14F, 55J, 332M, now about 50-80 pax less, and still same service (or less) - one (or two) crew members less is not that big a deal.......unions would not even agree to a hot towel in WT+ threatening IA over it !!!