British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Deeceethree answered my simple Q of whether he/she works for BA and has it been "for ages" by:
Deeceethree, a simple yes or no will do.
You have assumed I am in BA, haven't you? In any event, anyone's time in or out of BA is largely an irrelevance - let us see if you can counter any of the reasoned arguments/points/positions here without resorting to inane, hollow BASSA-speak. Go on, have a go! I dare you!
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CFC,
Whether or not they have been in BA since its inception or just joined last week makes no difference at all.
BA has had to publish detailed cost breakdowns both as a National Airline and as a private stock market listed company.
Those cost details can be seen by anyone who is interested and those, including the costings held by the CAA, show that BA Cabin Crew are far more expensive per head than any other competitive airline with similar structure.
If you search for it yourself I'm sure you can find the figures but to assist here are the CAA figures from back BEFORE the boom.
Table_1_14_Airline_Personnel_Cost_UK_and_Overseas_2003.pdf
oddly enough the BA line reads:
and, back in 2003 before their merger:
So, since then Brittania has been mergered with far cheaper CC and a change in their terms. BA flight crew were cheaper per head than Brittania in 2003 and have subsequently modified their T's & C's to reflect the change in global circumstance and BASSA have altered what exactly?
Now don't get me wrong, BASSA as a union have done well to protect what they have until now, achieved on the whole by cutting off and abandoning limbs such as Glasgow, Manchester and Gatwick and protecting Fortress Heathrow, they have fallen drastically at this hurdle by their complete unwillingness to face facts that they must change. This has been exacerbated by weak management in the past but that isn't occurring now. BASSA should have made a stab at effective negotiation BEFORE the 30th June deadline. Anything the company gives now is by BA's grace not BASSA's hard work.
Whether or not they have been in BA since its inception or just joined last week makes no difference at all.
BA has had to publish detailed cost breakdowns both as a National Airline and as a private stock market listed company.
Those cost details can be seen by anyone who is interested and those, including the costings held by the CAA, show that BA Cabin Crew are far more expensive per head than any other competitive airline with similar structure.
If you search for it yourself I'm sure you can find the figures but to assist here are the CAA figures from back BEFORE the boom.
Table_1_14_Airline_Personnel_Cost_UK_and_Overseas_2003.pdf
oddly enough the BA line reads:
BRITISH AIRWAYS PLC (a) 3156 Male Pilots 155 Female Pilots 84.8% average expenditure per head - 4468 Male CC 9426 Female CC 27.8% average expenditure per head
BRITANNIA AIRWAYS 410 Male Pilots 12 Female Pilots 98.3% Average expenditure per head - 273 Male CC 1232 Female CC 17.1% Average expenditure per head
Now don't get me wrong, BASSA as a union have done well to protect what they have until now, achieved on the whole by cutting off and abandoning limbs such as Glasgow, Manchester and Gatwick and protecting Fortress Heathrow, they have fallen drastically at this hurdle by their complete unwillingness to face facts that they must change. This has been exacerbated by weak management in the past but that isn't occurring now. BASSA should have made a stab at effective negotiation BEFORE the 30th June deadline. Anything the company gives now is by BA's grace not BASSA's hard work.
CFC,
Once more, for you and anyone else struggling to grasp reality - it is irrelevant!
Concentrate, and get back to the basics of the thread. You are obviously lacking any strategy for 'defending' BASSA's corner, if all you harp on about is whether someone has been in the company 10 minutes or 10 years?
Once more, for you and anyone else struggling to grasp reality - it is irrelevant!
Concentrate, and get back to the basics of the thread. You are obviously lacking any strategy for 'defending' BASSA's corner, if all you harp on about is whether someone has been in the company 10 minutes or 10 years?
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On a related matter, I am hearing rave reviews of the LGW crews who are working on the LCY-JFK flights who are doing an excellent job and seem to be genuinely proud to be working on this service. 
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Hmmm, do I sense the tone changing somewhat?
Notwithstanding the obvious omissions from their list, such as productivity savings, it is heartening to here the cries for unity; similar to the cries heard when the Birmingham, Glasgow, and Manchester bases were closed, and the new-entrant salaries agreed. Those cries were deafening, and still reverberate now; what a brave and bold front BASSA put up to preserve those jobs!
Oh, hang on, I'd dipped into a parallell universe there for a moment, sorry.
Don't think the consequences will be exactly unthinkable, maybe just working a bit harder, fixed-links and no more one-out one-back days. See, it can be thought. After all, most other airlines in the entire World, civilised or otherwise do that already.
You have been failed by your union. Abjectly, publicly and shamefully. It is writ large, if you cannot see it, then you deserve the representation you pay for.
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:49 PM
Subject: BASSA: FIVE FACTS
Five things you need to know right now.
1. There are only three days of talks currently planned; these are,
Wednesday 30th September, Thursday 1st and Friday 2nd October. No further
talks have been arranged.
2. The results of those talks, if any, good or bad will be reported
directly back to you at our next branch, which is on Monday 5th of
October, at our Kempton Park venue. You will decide any next step.
3. British Airways are still demanding GBP140 million in savings,
directly from your salary costs.
4. Behind the scenes, British Airways In-flight Customer Experience
management, are preparing to impose their plans for cost cutting on, or
around December 1st
5. As a simple reminder, and to put all of this into perspective,
this is what has been expected of other areas:
Cost saving targets within British Airways:
Management grades
No reduction in individual terms, conditions or salary costs. Savings
achieved by the offer of enhanced voluntary severance at 1.5 times annual
salary, available to all managers.
Pilots
Salary costs of GBP445m, which would increase over the next two years to
GBP458, therefore their challenge was to stay "cost neutral", saving GBP13
million. Savings required, 2.83%.
They also accepted a further saving of GBP10 million to fund voluntary
severance for 66 pilots.
Cabin crew
GBP567.9m salary costs - costs to be reduced by GBP140m from a 2000 head
count reduction. Savings required, 24.65%.
With these facts, it would appear extremely unlikely that even with the
best will in the world, we would be able to reach an agreement that you
would find acceptable.
These things are happening right now, and you need to ensure that you know
what is going to happen very shortly. BASSA is your union, we cannot
compete with British Airways in terms of communication resources, but we
have one thing they do not have, YOU.
We need YOU to spread the word today amongst your friends and colleagues;
we need to prepare to stand together for what we believe in and to protect
each other, that's how we will be at our strongest; if we do not the
consequences will be unthinkable.
Subject: BASSA: FIVE FACTS
Five things you need to know right now.
1. There are only three days of talks currently planned; these are,
Wednesday 30th September, Thursday 1st and Friday 2nd October. No further
talks have been arranged.
2. The results of those talks, if any, good or bad will be reported
directly back to you at our next branch, which is on Monday 5th of
October, at our Kempton Park venue. You will decide any next step.
3. British Airways are still demanding GBP140 million in savings,
directly from your salary costs.
4. Behind the scenes, British Airways In-flight Customer Experience
management, are preparing to impose their plans for cost cutting on, or
around December 1st
5. As a simple reminder, and to put all of this into perspective,
this is what has been expected of other areas:
Cost saving targets within British Airways:
Management grades
No reduction in individual terms, conditions or salary costs. Savings
achieved by the offer of enhanced voluntary severance at 1.5 times annual
salary, available to all managers.
Pilots
Salary costs of GBP445m, which would increase over the next two years to
GBP458, therefore their challenge was to stay "cost neutral", saving GBP13
million. Savings required, 2.83%.
They also accepted a further saving of GBP10 million to fund voluntary
severance for 66 pilots.
Cabin crew
GBP567.9m salary costs - costs to be reduced by GBP140m from a 2000 head
count reduction. Savings required, 24.65%.
With these facts, it would appear extremely unlikely that even with the
best will in the world, we would be able to reach an agreement that you
would find acceptable.
These things are happening right now, and you need to ensure that you know
what is going to happen very shortly. BASSA is your union, we cannot
compete with British Airways in terms of communication resources, but we
have one thing they do not have, YOU.
We need YOU to spread the word today amongst your friends and colleagues;
we need to prepare to stand together for what we believe in and to protect
each other, that's how we will be at our strongest; if we do not the
consequences will be unthinkable.
Oh, hang on, I'd dipped into a parallell universe there for a moment, sorry.
Don't think the consequences will be exactly unthinkable, maybe just working a bit harder, fixed-links and no more one-out one-back days. See, it can be thought. After all, most other airlines in the entire World, civilised or otherwise do that already.
You have been failed by your union. Abjectly, publicly and shamefully. It is writ large, if you cannot see it, then you deserve the representation you pay for.
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British Airways’ ‘fight for survival’ is over
British Airways’ ‘fight for survival’ is over - Times Online
Willie Walsh, the chief executive of British Airways, has signalled that the immediate crisis facing the airline has receded and it is no longer in a “fight for survival”.
He added that the airline’s merger with Iberia should be completed before the end of the year. Mr Walsh has also expressed an interest in buying bmi, the former British Midland, from Lufthansa, although no formal talks have been held.
The BA boss was speaking aboard BA001, the new business-class only service launched on Tuesday, from London City airport to New York, whose operation yesterday was delayed because of an engine fault.
Mr Walsh said: “I think we have done what needed to be done to address the immediate crisis we faced. Strengthening our cash position was a critical issue and we are taking the right steps to profitability. The situation is no longer as critical.”
His bullish outlook for the talks between BA and Iberia, the Spanish flag carrier, comes despite 14 months of difficult negotiations.
Mr Walsh warned in June that BA faced a fight for survival after the carrier lost £401 million the previous year and was burning through cash reserves at about £1 million a day.
Since then, BA has raised £680 million, cut costs and launched an aggressive pricing strategy.
BA raised money from investors in July via a convertible bond in order to bolster its balance sheet. The carrier has also cut capacity so its aircraft are flying fuller and is reducing costs, eliminating 1,450 jobs since the end of the last financial year.
However, Mr Walsh played down any suggestion that BA was entering a recovery phase. He pointed out that the International Air Transport Association (IATA) recently increased its estimate of how much global airlines will lose this year to $11 billion.
“We’re not banking on a significant or quick recovery,” he said.
The fragility of BA’s recovery means that the airline will continue to seek cost savings. It began three days of talks with unions representing its 14,000 cabin crew yesterday and Mr Walsh is determined that operational changes will be made.
He added that the airline’s merger with Iberia should be completed before the end of the year. Mr Walsh has also expressed an interest in buying bmi, the former British Midland, from Lufthansa, although no formal talks have been held.
The BA boss was speaking aboard BA001, the new business-class only service launched on Tuesday, from London City airport to New York, whose operation yesterday was delayed because of an engine fault.
Mr Walsh said: “I think we have done what needed to be done to address the immediate crisis we faced. Strengthening our cash position was a critical issue and we are taking the right steps to profitability. The situation is no longer as critical.”
His bullish outlook for the talks between BA and Iberia, the Spanish flag carrier, comes despite 14 months of difficult negotiations.
Mr Walsh warned in June that BA faced a fight for survival after the carrier lost £401 million the previous year and was burning through cash reserves at about £1 million a day.
Since then, BA has raised £680 million, cut costs and launched an aggressive pricing strategy.
BA raised money from investors in July via a convertible bond in order to bolster its balance sheet. The carrier has also cut capacity so its aircraft are flying fuller and is reducing costs, eliminating 1,450 jobs since the end of the last financial year.
However, Mr Walsh played down any suggestion that BA was entering a recovery phase. He pointed out that the International Air Transport Association (IATA) recently increased its estimate of how much global airlines will lose this year to $11 billion.
“We’re not banking on a significant or quick recovery,” he said.
The fragility of BA’s recovery means that the airline will continue to seek cost savings. It began three days of talks with unions representing its 14,000 cabin crew yesterday and Mr Walsh is determined that operational changes will be made.
Litebulbs
Excellent! So, tell me, what is so wrong about being paid market rate for your job in a comptetive environment? Your post has an element of pride that you admit BA cabin crew have stayed above market rate - can you please tell me how you justify that? And please don't give me the "best service, best crew in the world" argument- let's try to keep your answer on this planet.
If they had listened to some of the advice on here, they would have been down on market rate years ago.
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Deeceethree answered my simple Q. of does he work for BA and has it been "ages" as he previously mentioned by:
The relevance of my simple Q. was because Deeceethree has made previous statements -
So one can see the relevance of my simple Q. trying to determine whether he/she works for BA and how long for in order to make these statements ... or does he quote from hearsay all the time.
Yet another 'expert' making wild accusations on this site/thread just brings it all down to playground behaviour.
Deeceethree grow up.
Once more, for you and anyone else struggling to grasp reality - it is irrelevant!
Concentrate, and get back to the basics of the thread. You are obviously lacking any strategy for 'defending' BASSA's corner, if all you harp on about is whether someone has been in the company 10 minutes or 10 years?
Concentrate, and get back to the basics of the thread. You are obviously lacking any strategy for 'defending' BASSA's corner, if all you harp on about is whether someone has been in the company 10 minutes or 10 years?
BA cabin crew are the most overmanned and, for many of the LHR senior grades, the most overpaid in Europe, if not the world! BASSA have consistently interfered in the day to day operation of the airline for decades. Consequently it is the cabin crew as a group, together with BASSA, that now have to take the pain. Owing to the utter ineptitude of BASSA, that is going to be unpleasant for the cushy lifestyle that has been enjoyed, but undeserved, by many.
Yet another 'expert' making wild accusations on this site/thread just brings it all down to playground behaviour.
Deeceethree grow up.
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CFC,
I've worked for BA for over 20 years and agree with every word deeceethree says, (if that makes you happier.)
I don't think I've spoken to another pilot in years who doesn't agree with the sentiment that the balance of power has shifted to a ludicrous position in IFS/IFCE where Bassa believe they have the right to decide and veto company strategy, they can make operational decisions on the day as to whether flights may operate or not, can override Captains' legal decisions and most importantly, can refuse to take part in any form of business development that affects their terms and conditions, even in the deepest recession to hit our economy since WW2.
It's quite evident from the "Five Facts" and other recent Bassa comms that they have no intention of negotiating anything substantial; they see Willie Walsh as the first individual willing to take on their power base and emasculate their influence. The resulting personal attacks against him show that this has to be a battle to get rid of Walsh, because if they don't, they will lose all they hold so precious. They see market rate +10%, as offered by the Company, as "not worth coming to work for". (The words direct from a Bassa rep yesterday morning on the bus to T5), and will lose the status, as CSDs at LHR which they seem to think of as so important. They will no longer decide whether to get off the aircraft if 10 minutes over their industrial limit (while the pilots remain on board to try to get the operation and passengers back on plan), and they will no longer be able to say no to the handing out of hot towels.
This is what Bassa will lose if Willie stays on. Having to follow management's instructions, and working to market rate+10%, it's just not on. That's why these talks will fail.
I've worked for BA for over 20 years and agree with every word deeceethree says, (if that makes you happier.)
I don't think I've spoken to another pilot in years who doesn't agree with the sentiment that the balance of power has shifted to a ludicrous position in IFS/IFCE where Bassa believe they have the right to decide and veto company strategy, they can make operational decisions on the day as to whether flights may operate or not, can override Captains' legal decisions and most importantly, can refuse to take part in any form of business development that affects their terms and conditions, even in the deepest recession to hit our economy since WW2.
It's quite evident from the "Five Facts" and other recent Bassa comms that they have no intention of negotiating anything substantial; they see Willie Walsh as the first individual willing to take on their power base and emasculate their influence. The resulting personal attacks against him show that this has to be a battle to get rid of Walsh, because if they don't, they will lose all they hold so precious. They see market rate +10%, as offered by the Company, as "not worth coming to work for". (The words direct from a Bassa rep yesterday morning on the bus to T5), and will lose the status, as CSDs at LHR which they seem to think of as so important. They will no longer decide whether to get off the aircraft if 10 minutes over their industrial limit (while the pilots remain on board to try to get the operation and passengers back on plan), and they will no longer be able to say no to the handing out of hot towels.
This is what Bassa will lose if Willie stays on. Having to follow management's instructions, and working to market rate+10%, it's just not on. That's why these talks will fail.
midman
As another BA employee with 20 years + can I say:
I reckon you've summed up the whole sorry mess very well with that post.
There are a lot of top notch people in the Cabin Crew community, they need union representation, *** knows we all do with this management, but BASSA has become an absolute monster....
I reckon you've summed up the whole sorry mess very well with that post.
There are a lot of top notch people in the Cabin Crew community, they need union representation, *** knows we all do with this management, but BASSA has become an absolute monster....
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They have stayed above the market rate, because they have a strong union. BA made increasing profits, year on year, until the world went mad, whilst paying crew above market rate. Why shouldn't employees get a slice of it and why would a union actively seek to reduce terms and conditions of its members. £B1 or £B1.2 does not make the slightest bit of difference to the employee, but taking 25% out of terms and conditions does.
The reason that BA crew can maintain their package is because BA is what it is, THE major stake holder at LHR it was built as a nationalised beast and gained its market position because of it as it grew as a private company. What a great place to be at the right time, as many senior BA crew members were.
The reason that BA crew can maintain their package is because BA is what it is, THE major stake holder at LHR it was built as a nationalised beast and gained its market position because of it as it grew as a private company. What a great place to be at the right time, as many senior BA crew members were.
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They have stayed above the market rate, because they have a strong union.
BA made increasing profits, year on year, until the world went mad, whilst paying crew above market rate.
£B1 or £B1.2 does not make the slightest bit of difference to the employee, but taking 25% out of terms and conditions does.
"BA made increasing profits, year on year," really - whats your timescale?
"until the world went mad," well IMHO the reason we are all in this mess is because last year the World stopped going mad.....now we all have to face reality.
"until the world went mad," well IMHO the reason we are all in this mess is because last year the World stopped going mad.....now we all have to face reality.
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Litebulbs,
I'm not sure if you've run a business but if you were turning over £80,000 a year and only achieving £6000 before tax profit, you'd be struggling to get investors in your company to allow for growth, new equipment and to pay a bit of a dividend to your original investors. You wouldn't be happy I'm sure.
Multiply that by 100,000 and that's the level of performance that BA achieved in those crazy boom years when you say we made such great profits we could afford to pay above market rates to cabin crew who achieved below market rate productivity. If you had looked around you at the time, other departments were trying to adapt to the changing industry, adopting new working practices and introducing different pay and reward schemes to improve efficiency.
Name me two departments that made no changes. You can't can you. That's because there was only one.
Those bumper years weren't all milk and honey, there were huge challenges facing the company that we had to deal with and adapt to, and as a consequence of everyone else's flexibility, we made some profit. But still no dividend. Bassa sat there and played hard ball, taking their ' deserved slice' as you call it, defending fortress Heathrow and the Bassa reps' vested interests.
And if you say you deserve a share of the spoils, do you not agree you deserve a share of the pain as we negotiate the worst trading conditions in our history?
I'm not sure if you've run a business but if you were turning over £80,000 a year and only achieving £6000 before tax profit, you'd be struggling to get investors in your company to allow for growth, new equipment and to pay a bit of a dividend to your original investors. You wouldn't be happy I'm sure.
Multiply that by 100,000 and that's the level of performance that BA achieved in those crazy boom years when you say we made such great profits we could afford to pay above market rates to cabin crew who achieved below market rate productivity. If you had looked around you at the time, other departments were trying to adapt to the changing industry, adopting new working practices and introducing different pay and reward schemes to improve efficiency.
Name me two departments that made no changes. You can't can you. That's because there was only one.
Those bumper years weren't all milk and honey, there were huge challenges facing the company that we had to deal with and adapt to, and as a consequence of everyone else's flexibility, we made some profit. But still no dividend. Bassa sat there and played hard ball, taking their ' deserved slice' as you call it, defending fortress Heathrow and the Bassa reps' vested interests.
And if you say you deserve a share of the spoils, do you not agree you deserve a share of the pain as we negotiate the worst trading conditions in our history?
Last edited by midman; 1st Oct 2009 at 18:47.
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Multiply that by 100,000 and that's the level of performance that BA achieved in those crazy boom years when you say we made such great profits we could afford to pay above market rates to cabin crew who achieved below market rate productivity.
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It's simple CFC. We had to turnover a vast sum of money to make a disproportionately small profit. We were a broken business. Everyone has changed to get BA to a point where it has a credible operating margin. Everyone except one group.
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The cash position of the company is a bit more stable due to the extra investment (read borrowing) based upon the assumption that the company will fulfill its promises to the share holders (me included) in respect to radical restructuring and the abolition of the annual ingrowing toenail strikes.
Whilst that puts the company in a position to look forward it does so with an increased debt sheet, a bunch of shareholders who will be looking for a dividend in the near future and uncertainty as to the direction that the interest rates to service the debt within an almost bankrupt economy will take.
So, whilst all other departments have been assessed and trimmed and rationalised the Ifce department stands out like a sore thumb.
BASSA, once again, instead of grasping the fact that negotiation really is required this time decides to peer over the fence and whinge that the other departments aren't taking their fair share of the medicine.
Wrong. We have had 90 pages of the reasons why BASSA must accept change and no rational, well reasoned and financially viable reason as to why BASSA shouldn't accept any change.
Looking forward to the 'BASSA 100%' rallying call at Kempton on the fifth from the amassed rhetoric monkies .
Not looking forward to the unnecessary uncertainty and strife that BASSA are putting their members through as the run up to the 1 Dec imposition looms.
I hope and I pray that Unite, at least, will sort something out by then.
Until then thanks BASSA for deferring my pay cuts until 01 Dec.
Whilst that puts the company in a position to look forward it does so with an increased debt sheet, a bunch of shareholders who will be looking for a dividend in the near future and uncertainty as to the direction that the interest rates to service the debt within an almost bankrupt economy will take.
So, whilst all other departments have been assessed and trimmed and rationalised the Ifce department stands out like a sore thumb.
BASSA, once again, instead of grasping the fact that negotiation really is required this time decides to peer over the fence and whinge that the other departments aren't taking their fair share of the medicine.
Wrong. We have had 90 pages of the reasons why BASSA must accept change and no rational, well reasoned and financially viable reason as to why BASSA shouldn't accept any change.
Looking forward to the 'BASSA 100%' rallying call at Kempton on the fifth from the amassed rhetoric monkies .
Not looking forward to the unnecessary uncertainty and strife that BASSA are putting their members through as the run up to the 1 Dec imposition looms.
I hope and I pray that Unite, at least, will sort something out by then.
Until then thanks BASSA for deferring my pay cuts until 01 Dec.