British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[wobble2plank]

Its getting more and more obvious that BA are just stalling for time - I wonder why.

BA don't need to 'stall' for time. They have done all, in the eyes of corporate law, they require to be able to impose change.

The timing is entirely up to them.

[Lets Get Wasted]

MrBunker wrote - "I see. Is that the best riposte you can muster in order to try and keep this on an adult level? Therein lies some of the problem we allude to. It's mud slinging and banal intimations of character weakness. I don't post on there as I'm not a cc member. My wife doesn't post on there because, despite what people say, there is no brooking of any heterodox opinion and people who think differently are almost always met with nigh on abusive retorts. To ask for a clarification of fact by a member of your coterie is hardly about risking exposure, despite the occasional history of threats of violence against the person on anonymous cc forums. You may or may not choose to believe thus but the opinions of a vast majority of people at work are not of any significant consequence to my day to day mental balance."


Best riposte ? I'm not giving you an arguement,nor a debate,or even a counterstroke.I'm giving you a suggestion.If you want to debate with someone on CF,then wouldn't it be more effective to do it on CF ? Instead of trying to get someone to relay messages between the two forums ! So to answer your question,then,yes,this is the best riposte as a way of a suggestion I have !

If you don't want you wife to then message on your behalf on CF because you're in fear of abuse or violence against you or your wife,then it's pretty pointless argueing/debating with an individual of CF on a forum(Pprune) that they may not be a member of.Or hoping that another member of CF who is also a member of Pprune will be kind enough to pass on your riposte to them,and then hoping for a reply back from CF to Pprune via the 3rd party is very ambitious.

You obviously have access to CF,so do your own dirty work and don't expect others to do it for you !!

[MrBunker]

Which rather backs up my point. Dirty work? Please, if able try not to emotionalise the argument. To ask for clarity to be brought to bear is hardly exhorting a proxy to carry out my "dirty work". Your reply bears that ever so typical over-emoted tone with it. If you don't feel that having the debate conducted with facts alone is worthwhile than so be it but it's not your place to tell my wife to go ahead and post. As I stated earlier I'm not CC so will not post on CF under someone elses pseudonym. The original misapprehension was passed on to me. If in do doing my wife elects to not correct it because she disdains the vituperative nature of that forum, that is entirely her choice. Nor, if you read back did I ask for a third party 'riposte' back on here (I think reply more apt but, to each their own).

I make the observation again, at the nub of the problem in attempting to hold this debate is a general indifference towards using provable, unemotive factual information and an overblown reliance on rhetoric and grandstanding.

[MrBunker]

That aside I suppose it's all sadly academic. The outcome to this will be whatever it will and the febrile intra-staff relationship will continue unabated. To me that's the real and enduring fault at the heart of this airline up and down all the reporting chains.

[bks]

I have been following this debate for quite a while now and it really is going on and on. I have always held the belief that BA crew should fight for what they can but clearly something needs to give and more 'Negotiating' needs to happen.

I am currently in the hold pool/talent pool and my application doesn't expire until August 2010. I am in no rush to start BA particularly in these times but am hopeful that things will get sorted.

I flew with BA last week on 2 JFK flights and spoke to some of the crew on both flights about the current situation but got very different opinions amongst them. Some wore the BASSA Lanyards and said things like "We will fight, we are 14,000 etc etc" some saying things like "We will fight before they cut our jobs and hire new people"

2 i spoke to said they felt uneasy about the hold pools and the fact these people including ex temps are all referenced with paper work done. She felt BA had something planned however still supported any strike action. She also added that we don't want new starters joining because then they can get rid of current crew like her who have have been at BA for 12 years. Very mixed opinions really whilst saying this she did say Good luck with a big smile. It was eye opening to say the least.

I was quite shocked with some though who when i asked about trips on WW said lots of crew call in sick for night stops and this year alone one did the same for Miami, Vancouver and that next month she wants to do the same for trips to Hyderabad and Mumbai on the basis they "Pay crap all" she also said the system at BA is corrupt with some people getting lots of long range trips and she kept getting night stops and that whilst the hotels are nice in some destinations India and Africa pay terribly and no one wants these flights ever. Others standing by agreed.

I was quite shocked at this! Clearly there are some issues in the crew community. Personally i can't see how such important talks have gone on and on since a June 30th deadline. Clearly BA are up to something the cost of having fully referenced hold pools and people in HR costs money.

I maybe wrong in my thoughts. On a happier note i must say the crew were friendly and nice despite some rash opinions and rants when i spoke to them in the galley they certainly all were passionate about BASSA and their jobs at BA.

[LD12986]

she also said the system at BA is corrupt with some people getting lots of long range trips

On this often repeated point of managers at certain outstations seeing the same CSDs time and time again, why isn't anything done about this?

Surely BA's internal audit dept should be picking this up? As BA used to be SEC registered (I'm not sure it still is), it should have a very robust system of internal controls and management testing to ensure that things like this do not happen and compliance with Section 404 of the Sarbanes Oxley Act.

[overstress]

some destinations India and Africa pay terribly and no one wants these flights ever. Others standing by agreed.

This is no secret and many crew I have spoken to want to change it. There is too much of a collective reluctance to change the gravy train (for some) and the result will be like a blow to the stomach for many.

[wiggy]

Isn't that the reason for "Destination Payments" for some of the supposedly less popular destinations?

As for some destinations being poor allowance payers, restructuring allowances onto a Time Away from Base basis rather than destination specific would solve that little problem - dare I mention that's the system pilots at BA have used for years. Perhaps someone from the Cabin crew community can tell us why they haven't undertaken such restructuring.

[drew3325]

Time for Another Post

Having just caught up on all the posting on here I thought it was time to add another. Never got any answers the last time I posted so see what happens this time.
1) The extensive postings about "copying "entertaining missives" (and I use that phrase in its broadest term) from one site to another makes me wonder that in this day and age if BASSA didn't want them reproduced elsewhere there are ways and means of stopping it. However it is a two way street and "leaking" what was marked as a strictly private and confidential document, to its members did nothing but add to the confusion way back in the heady days when this episode was all "kicking off". After all it was only a draft! And sending out text messages to member says "Check you mail - urgent update" just added to the fire!.
2) The constant "Personal" attacks on members of the board of BA, especially WW in respect of what he is trying to do - perhaps if one took the time to read what his role is all about at British Airways as well as seeing a copy of his "actual contract" as CEO of BA - all of which are in the public domain - one would see that its not a "personal vendetta against cabin crew"
3)The people that have posted in respect of BASSA not acting in the best interests of their members - have you done anything about it. Working for a firm of solicitors that has specialist employment lawyers I am more than happy to point you in the right direction as to what you can and cant do

and I guess finally, as the partner of a BA crew member with many friends at BA, the consensus amongst them now seems to be well "what ever happens will happen - lets wait and see"

I wonder once all the "FACTS" are known and the bickering stops will it all be as bad as some make out. (Am sure that will not go down well in some parts).

Finally though I would like to add a thank you for keeping me entertained and updated with the going on in the world of BA cabin crew.

[thunderbird7]

Why hasn't it changed? Blindingly obvious! Those at the front of the gravy train are the same people that negotiate for the rest of crew as BASSA reps. The corruption in CC rostering has been known about and talked about for years and recently highlighted with the suspension of a rostering bloke for 'allegedly' taking 'cash for rosters' . Its not rocket science when you see the same old faces in NRT HKG BKK SIN and fly with other crew who never go there.

What is more unbelievable is that the masses put up with this and don't vote out the greedy, self-centred people who are feathering their own nests.

This rant is nothing to do with the current negotiations but just a comment on the system in general!!

[Nutjob]

Haven't posted for a while but things do seem to have changed. I always subscribed to the "need for change" and was prepared to make concessions. I've been unimpressed with BASSA's approach over the last few months and felt that their conduct would end up with a worse solution being imposed upon us.

But I have to say, BA seems as bad lately and McCarthy storming out of meetings (and I gather that the BASSA line on this IS true this time) does BA no favours either.

How long will this ridiculous stand-off go on? Every time it's "no progress" and "further meetings planned for xxxx". Well as every deal is off the table, blank sheets of paper are out and we seem to be back at square one then how are BASSA and BA going to sort this out?

If BA needs these savings desperately, then they need to get on with. Otherwise, this will be seen as the opportunistic raid that BASSA believe it is.

[SR71]

Not that its any of our business I suppose, but can someone restate the BA proposals that BASSA are so upset with?

It might serve to refresh our minds after 90 pages of debate as to what exactly is being discussed here and whether or not in the light of the ensuing micro and macro-economic developments, it is reasonable?

Just a thought...

I've read the whole thread but can't be bothered to sift back through it to find the info...

[nuigini]

Speak to our ICC in HKG, NRT and SIN and they will confirm that they see the same crew over and over again!

[etrang]

On BASSA's web site they helpfully provide e-mail addresses, including one at their legal advisors, OHParsons.

General enquiries: Office AT bassa.co.uk
Questions & Answers: QandA AT bassa.co.uk
Legal questions: bassa AT ohparsons.co.uk (no spaces)
Euro Fleet T5 Office: LHREurofleet AT bassa.co.uk
World Wide T5 Office: LHRWorldwide AT bassa.co.uk

So if anyone is still interested in the legal advice offered to BASSA members, rather than asking other posters, you can contact their lawyers directly.

And mandy, i've just checked and ohparsons say this e-mail address is not "confidential information".

[Jean-Lill]

Inconsistent Crewing levels have not changed which one would expect would have happened with a marked reduction in cabin service in the tourist cabins on short haul routes regardless of this current situation concerning industrial discusions if there are any.

I was a pax on a BA Airbus 319 yesterday on a 2 hour flight and there were still 5 cabin crew, 2 were serving about 6 club pax and 3 more serving a combined drinks/bevs service handing out a cookie at the same time. The toursit section of the 319 had a capacity of about 70 seats of which about 60 seats were occupied. Do they really need 3 crew for 70 pax when only a drinks service is offered in 2 hours?

The 3 of them completed the entire drinks service in well less than 15 minutes, then the they went round trying to sell tax free items which took about 10 minutes. So for well over an hour they had nothing to do. I would have thought even without the current industrial unrest they would have reduced the amount of cabin crew to suit the service requirement. 3 in toursit made the cabin over-staffed.

[deeceethree]

Jean-Lill,

And there lies the rub! BA wants to reduce its heavily overstaffed cabins but BASSA are playing hard-ball because, as a union, it can't see past its own snout. And not only are the cabins over-staffed, they are overstaffed with some very expensive cabin crew. Given the perilous state of the world's finances, and in particular the finances of the air travel/freight industry, BA is having one hell of a job convincing the snout-in-the-trough-ers that they have to bite the bullet.

So for well over an hour they had nothing to do

Trust me, there are some (but not all) who are more than happy to keep it that way. They don't seem to understand that when they are on duty they should be working!

[Carnage Matey!]

So, the bloke down the pub tells me the 90 day consultation period for cabin crew redundancy is up on 30th September, and on the same day BASSA will meet BA for last ditch talks with a blank piece of paper. Wonder what'll come out the other side if BASSA don't shift from their position?

[Ancient Observer]

Are there any other views about McCarthy's alleged "storming out"?
If he's in charge of "negotiations", it sounds like, er, unusual behaviour. Or is it just another attack on anyone from the BA Exec. team?

[Da Dog]

AC

If you read my posts you will see that I am anti BASSA in almost all respects and I try not to post just to wind people up with unfounded speculation( but sometimes it happens) Please believe me and my previous post. Said person had a 2 year old style strop, intentional or otherwise it happened.

This is very worrying.

[Terminal 5]

Seems like one part of the union isn't happy with the other.......

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