British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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NEW FLEET Seems very interesting. Looks like hold pools and ex temps might be coming back in the new year once/if these changes are made.
What will the new fleet consist of? mixed flying? EF? WW? Whatever it is im sure current crew will now start getting worried that they will be starved of work. I might be crazy but what's stopping BA creating this new fleet and putting all the big money trips like SIN/SYD/HKG/NRT etc onto this fleet on reduced terms and conditions (no box payments etc). Big savings?
At least something has finally come to light. However after supporting current crew and them following bassa it does seem that strike action is really not necessary.
Good Luck everyone!
What will the new fleet consist of? mixed flying? EF? WW? Whatever it is im sure current crew will now start getting worried that they will be starved of work. I might be crazy but what's stopping BA creating this new fleet and putting all the big money trips like SIN/SYD/HKG/NRT etc onto this fleet on reduced terms and conditions (no box payments etc). Big savings?
At least something has finally come to light. However after supporting current crew and them following bassa it does seem that strike action is really not necessary.
Good Luck everyone!
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The new fleet may drive up customer service standards. If the routes on which the new fleet operate consistently achieve better CSQ stats then the argument to move other routes over to the fleet will be easy to make. 'Old fleet' will need to ensure they dont give BA that argument to preserve their right to fly their routes of choice and avoid being stripped of the prized destinations.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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So how many people want part-time or voluntary redundancy? That option will almost certainly be taken away if there's a ballot so that's got to be a few thousand "No" votes already!
That means it's highly likely BASSA won't get the overwhelming majority they need for a strike and I'll put money on the fact that when it comes to the crunch, a large number of "Yes" voters wouldn't walk anyway. Sickies don't count - there may be a pattern, remember.
But BASSA have to ballot. They've already said they would if BA imposes anything.
Oops.
That means it's highly likely BASSA won't get the overwhelming majority they need for a strike and I'll put money on the fact that when it comes to the crunch, a large number of "Yes" voters wouldn't walk anyway. Sickies don't count - there may be a pattern, remember.
But BASSA have to ballot. They've already said they would if BA imposes anything.
Oops.
'Old fleet' will need to ensure they dont give BA that argument to preserve their right to fly their routes of choice
It's the company's routes and the company's aircraft. Crew have no "rights" to choose where they fly to. Had sensible discussion taken place there could have been a middle ground agreement. Now there's going to be blood in the water. Say goodbye to long range and box payments - it's only a matter of time.
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'New Fleet' - will have to involve a significant long haul element to realise fuether decent savings. Given that Eurofleet has now gone to the same model as Gatwick - there cant be much more saving to be done there.
I guess they'll start with a few 'safe' long haul routes to prove the quality doesnt go down, and then gradually move routes to the new model as the size of the different fleets takes its course of natural progression.
I guess they'll start with a few 'safe' long haul routes to prove the quality doesnt go down, and then gradually move routes to the new model as the size of the different fleets takes its course of natural progression.
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Oh where, oh where is Poof in Boots when you need him?
I'd love to hear what the next move is now. If BASSA lose this then they become an irrelevance and BA can push through many more changes. I said we should have negotiated sensibly with an acknowledgment of the need for some change. Thanks a bunch BASSA!
I'd love to hear what the next move is now. If BASSA lose this then they become an irrelevance and BA can push through many more changes. I said we should have negotiated sensibly with an acknowledgment of the need for some change. Thanks a bunch BASSA!
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Nutjob,
I believe that you will find the majority of contributors to this, rather lengthy, thread have always advocated the same.
A few have pilloried the others for posting 'crew hatred' but nothing could have been further from the truth. Failure by BASSA to embark on meaningful, balanced and sensible negotiation has left the current CC membership in limbo for the foreseeable future.
How long until 'new contract' becomes 'standard contract' and 'current contract' see their possible high paying routes dwindle?
Not too long one would suggest.
I believe that you will find the majority of contributors to this, rather lengthy, thread have always advocated the same.
A few have pilloried the others for posting 'crew hatred' but nothing could have been further from the truth. Failure by BASSA to embark on meaningful, balanced and sensible negotiation has left the current CC membership in limbo for the foreseeable future.
How long until 'new contract' becomes 'standard contract' and 'current contract' see their possible high paying routes dwindle?
Not too long one would suggest.
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W2P
Indeed they have, but their posts have been based on fact and not rhetoric. Many predicted this. The over-qualified, double-degree'd, walk-into-a-job anywhere PiB didn't. So I'd love to hear his take on things now.
P.S PiB. Re Imposition.....told you so!
I believe that you will find the majority of contributors to this, rather lengthy, thread have always advocated the same.
P.S PiB. Re Imposition.....told you so!
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The principle of not diluting terms and conditions for new joiners, to protect those already in the company is well established for us. If we let BA do that, it would be a wedge that BA could use to divide us. (Contrast with Bassa's long term tactics, and the resulting mess)
This looks like BASSA's response:
British Airways has today, at 12:14 imposed significant changes to our working agreement, to save £140 million from your salary costs.
Bill Francis has confirmed this in an ESS email to all crew.
He will be imposing the following, on the 16th Of November; we must stress once again that these are PERMANENT changes.
* A New Fleet with separate pay, agreements, promotions and conditions will be introduced to cover both long haul and short haul work.
* One crew member - a purser - will be removed from all LHR Worldwide routes -767,777,747.
* A two year pay freeze on basic pay and all variable pay and allowances until 2011
* Removal of an additional crew member from certain designated flights
* Removal of a crew member from specified 777 long range flights
* Removal of a purser from LGW 777 to be replaced by main crew member
* LHR Eurofleet crewing levels to be reduced to LGW levels
* Single supervisor on all Eurofleet flights
* Talks to continue on the 14th October to press home British Airways’ requirement for flexible rosters and crewing levels after operational disruption.
We would urge you to consider this list very long and very hard; you are looking at your own future and your response will determine if this is to become the blue print for it.
Despite Mr. Francis’ incorrect statement, a number of these changes are contractual.
This is the first time that British Airways have blatantly imposed new terms and conditions upon us; you can rest assured it won’t be the last.
Your Union will, of course respond in due course, with guidance as to what will happen next.
For now though, we urge you to stand together, draw strength from each other; you are not alone, you are part of the biggest and strongest branch of any union in the country. Don’t become disheartened or fragmented with one group pitched against another; if you do we will lose.
If we stand by each other we will protect each others’ future.
Bill Francis has confirmed this in an ESS email to all crew.
He will be imposing the following, on the 16th Of November; we must stress once again that these are PERMANENT changes.
* A New Fleet with separate pay, agreements, promotions and conditions will be introduced to cover both long haul and short haul work.
* One crew member - a purser - will be removed from all LHR Worldwide routes -767,777,747.
* A two year pay freeze on basic pay and all variable pay and allowances until 2011
* Removal of an additional crew member from certain designated flights
* Removal of a crew member from specified 777 long range flights
* Removal of a purser from LGW 777 to be replaced by main crew member
* LHR Eurofleet crewing levels to be reduced to LGW levels
* Single supervisor on all Eurofleet flights
* Talks to continue on the 14th October to press home British Airways’ requirement for flexible rosters and crewing levels after operational disruption.
We would urge you to consider this list very long and very hard; you are looking at your own future and your response will determine if this is to become the blue print for it.
Despite Mr. Francis’ incorrect statement, a number of these changes are contractual.
This is the first time that British Airways have blatantly imposed new terms and conditions upon us; you can rest assured it won’t be the last.
Your Union will, of course respond in due course, with guidance as to what will happen next.
For now though, we urge you to stand together, draw strength from each other; you are not alone, you are part of the biggest and strongest branch of any union in the country. Don’t become disheartened or fragmented with one group pitched against another; if you do we will lose.
If we stand by each other we will protect each others’ future.
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Don’t become disheartened or fragmented with one group pitched against another; if you do we will lose.
Versus
With all this in mind three proposals were made from the floor and all accepted by 100% of those present.
1.Because of concerns over Brian Boyd using UNITE’s money.....BLAH BLAH BLAH
2.It is unacceptable to again use our money to fund representatives ...BLAH BLAH BLAH
3.The T&G UNITE section have total control of any ballot of industrial action within BA and if this does not happen the AMICUS section is specifically excluded....BLAH
After a unanimous show of hands it was reported back how one of the AMICUS reps taking part in the talks was taking VR in 3 weeks and how unethical it was for him to be part of a negotiating team ...ETC ETC.
1.Because of concerns over Brian Boyd using UNITE’s money.....BLAH BLAH BLAH
2.It is unacceptable to again use our money to fund representatives ...BLAH BLAH BLAH
3.The T&G UNITE section have total control of any ballot of industrial action within BA and if this does not happen the AMICUS section is specifically excluded....BLAH
After a unanimous show of hands it was reported back how one of the AMICUS reps taking part in the talks was taking VR in 3 weeks and how unethical it was for him to be part of a negotiating team ...ETC ETC.
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Grrrrrr, I've got to have my say. I hope all those that SHOUTED, threatened, abused and intimidated on the BASSA Forum can see how pointless it all was.
"It'll never happen, so shut-up!"
"Stop scaring people"
"If you can't post anything positive, then don't post"
Well, that got us a real long way didn't it? What the hell did it achieve except to leave us totally unprepared? If any of you who acted that way read this, then I hope you're proud of yourselves. You'll get your just deserts. The problem is that many more of us moderates will get the same treatment. This is only BA's opening salvo. Nullifying BASSA and then steaming ahead with more and more changes will be next.
We could have worked with BA. Now we're in a head-on collision and they, at least, appear to have been prepared for it.
Bassa 0%
"It'll never happen, so shut-up!"
"Stop scaring people"
"If you can't post anything positive, then don't post"
Well, that got us a real long way didn't it? What the hell did it achieve except to leave us totally unprepared? If any of you who acted that way read this, then I hope you're proud of yourselves. You'll get your just deserts. The problem is that many more of us moderates will get the same treatment. This is only BA's opening salvo. Nullifying BASSA and then steaming ahead with more and more changes will be next.
We could have worked with BA. Now we're in a head-on collision and they, at least, appear to have been prepared for it.
Bassa 0%
Nutjob,
I sympathise. You obviously wanted this to work differently, but from the outside it appears that the BASSA 'administration' is populated with such selfish people that the moderates never get a look in at representing the work force.
BASSA even decided at the Kempton gathering to delay elections for new representatives to BASSA. That was done on a mere show of hands! How much of a quorum did they have? Do BASSA 'rules' actually allow a minority to subjugate the majority like that? Perhaps BASSA needs you, Nutjob, and more like you, to represent the cabin crew community. Give it some serious consideration - the idiots need removing.
I sympathise. You obviously wanted this to work differently, but from the outside it appears that the BASSA 'administration' is populated with such selfish people that the moderates never get a look in at representing the work force.
BASSA even decided at the Kempton gathering to delay elections for new representatives to BASSA. That was done on a mere show of hands! How much of a quorum did they have? Do BASSA 'rules' actually allow a minority to subjugate the majority like that? Perhaps BASSA needs you, Nutjob, and more like you, to represent the cabin crew community. Give it some serious consideration - the idiots need removing.
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What is it Nutjob that makes you believe that BA wanted to work with BASSA? Where's your evidence that any kind of meaningful negotiation was ever on the cards?
No we couldn't. BA were never interested. This is Project Columbus writ large.
We could have worked with BA
Junior trash
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No we couldn't. BA were never interested. This is Project Columbus writ large.
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QRS
Other groups (pilots and engineers) studied BA's finances, accepted the need for change and met their cost-savings in full. They worked WITH BA and thereby gave BA no other choice. BA couldn't impose anything because those groups met their targets. I have no doubt that imposition would have occurred if they hadn't.
Conversely.
Fact: BASSA refused to study the finances in depth. They kept delaying, crowed about the recession being over, and denied that there was any need to make the requested savings.
See the difference? You shouldn't be surprised about where we are. Many predicted it. Maybe BA weren't bothered how this played out because maybe they knew they had this ready to go all along. But then other groups may have known that too (it seems they did) and took the wind out of WW's sails by working with BA.
The coming weeks will determine who's approach was correct. But just for fullness, consider that the pilots don't have to take their paycut unless our savings are met in full. That clever lot even wrote an insurance policy into their agreement. Want to be in their position now or ours?
Still, "United we stand", as we face the situation we hadn't planned for.
What is it Nutjob that makes you believe that BA wanted to work with BASSA? Where's your evidence that any kind of meaningful negotiation was ever on the cards?
Conversely.
Fact: BASSA refused to study the finances in depth. They kept delaying, crowed about the recession being over, and denied that there was any need to make the requested savings.
See the difference? You shouldn't be surprised about where we are. Many predicted it. Maybe BA weren't bothered how this played out because maybe they knew they had this ready to go all along. But then other groups may have known that too (it seems they did) and took the wind out of WW's sails by working with BA.
The coming weeks will determine who's approach was correct. But just for fullness, consider that the pilots don't have to take their paycut unless our savings are met in full. That clever lot even wrote an insurance policy into their agreement. Want to be in their position now or ours?
Still, "United we stand", as we face the situation we hadn't planned for.
Last edited by Nutjob; 6th Oct 2009 at 21:02.
From QRS,
Okay QRS, here is one for you:
What is it, QRS, that makes you believe that BASSA wanted to work with BA? Where's your evidence that any kind of meaningful negotiation was ever on the cards?
What is it Nutjob that makes you believe that BA wanted to work with BASSA? Where's your evidence that any kind of meaningful negotiation was ever on the cards?
What is it, QRS, that makes you believe that BASSA wanted to work with BA? Where's your evidence that any kind of meaningful negotiation was ever on the cards?