British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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I thnk you'll find it's only an issue if the percentage of VR'd voters will affect the outcome of the ballot one way or the other. Chances of that? Well, it will most probably be a yes vote so it will depend on the margin. It is a major chink in UNITE's armour, however... it may have been engineered as such, and you don't have to be a member of MENSA to work out why that would be something they may want to keep in their back pocket.
However, one thing surprises me about his thread, and that is that no-one has picked up on something posted a few days ago by one Jetset Lady. To wit:
I asked a contact of mine, a senior manager in IFCE about the telephoning crew issue; he was admant it had not happened YET, but once a result was in and the intentions announced it would most likely happen as a reasonable means of ascertaining intentions and allowing forward planning, and was most definitely allowable within the contracts of employment as reasonable contact. However, he was also adamant that none had taken place to date, and indeed laughed at the idea that the company would start phoning round based on the announcement of a ballot; "Why would we do that, we would gain nothing, it would only piss-off those we want onside?"
So given that people HAVE been receiving calls from "BA," from whom, and where exactly did those calls originate? Given it is not in BA's advantage to make such calls now, who would gain from the propaganda benefit of such calls being made? Given the post above, and the given timings, perhaps someone recorded such a call? After all, it is moot to make recordings of such approaches during any dispute, the only caveat being that you are supposed to make the other party aware of your recording, but maybe someone has the "BA Manager" from "Waterside" on tape?
Far be it for any nefarious rogue elements within a union to seek a propaganda advantage from such subterfuge. After all, the union are whiter-that-white; let's see, didn't they employ a scheduler sacked from BA, one whom allegedly would have been in a position to allegedly give advantageous rostering towards the very senior persons in charge of the union, and allegedly did so leading to his sacking. Didn't said scheduler then walk into a job with said union? Wasn't said ex-scheduler them promenaded before the masses and tasked with delivering ballot notification to BA? Doesn't that strike you as being like politicians getting jobs with the companies they have protected and advantaged during their time in office? Armaments and Thatcher's cabinet, perhaps?
Hmmm. Interesting. Let's see the BASSA response to that. "BASSA 100%
" doesn't count, by the way.
Said it before, say it again; absolutely no problem with the crew I work with, they are to a man and a woman deserving of better leadership than they have. It really is time to reform BASSA from the ground up. Indeed, as they claim to be a "progressive" union on their website, could someone perhaps show where they have been "progressive" ever? Like, seriously, ever (as my teenage daughter would say?)
Lions led by donkeys. Time to throw the donkeys over the cliff.
However, one thing surprises me about his thread, and that is that no-one has picked up on something posted a few days ago by one Jetset Lady. To wit:
Had an interesting situation the other day. The day the notices came out, advising us that managers would be contacting us, crew starting getting calls, supposedly from managers at Waterside, asking their view on the strike. I'll be honest, when I heard about it, I was absolutely fuming. We were on the other side of the Atlantic and only 3 hrs from pickup. Plus, one of the younger crew was extremely worried, following a comment he had made on the outbound flight. He thought he'd been "dropped in it", for want of better words. On arrival back at LGW, I went straight to the managers and told them exactly what I thought of the inept managers up at Waterside, only to have them all look at me blankly. Waterside managers weren't making the calls, I was told. Our own managers would call us. Following my insistence that they damned well had called, further investigations took place. And guess what. Absolutely no trace on any system of phone calls having been made, from either LGW or London. Then I started to think about it. The calls were made at 1900 local time in the UK, and we all know that Waterside empties out long before then. All the crew involved had different managers and some were of different ranks. Plus, the only people that had received the calls, were the BASSA members on the crew, or in other words, the only ones that BASSA would have had contact details for.
Now, I'm certainly not blinded to the ineptitude of much of the management, but in this case, I am forced, by the evidence, to believe them. So where did those calls come from? Anyone wish to put a theory forward
Now, I'm certainly not blinded to the ineptitude of much of the management, but in this case, I am forced, by the evidence, to believe them. So where did those calls come from? Anyone wish to put a theory forward
So given that people HAVE been receiving calls from "BA," from whom, and where exactly did those calls originate? Given it is not in BA's advantage to make such calls now, who would gain from the propaganda benefit of such calls being made? Given the post above, and the given timings, perhaps someone recorded such a call? After all, it is moot to make recordings of such approaches during any dispute, the only caveat being that you are supposed to make the other party aware of your recording, but maybe someone has the "BA Manager" from "Waterside" on tape?
Far be it for any nefarious rogue elements within a union to seek a propaganda advantage from such subterfuge. After all, the union are whiter-that-white; let's see, didn't they employ a scheduler sacked from BA, one whom allegedly would have been in a position to allegedly give advantageous rostering towards the very senior persons in charge of the union, and allegedly did so leading to his sacking. Didn't said scheduler then walk into a job with said union? Wasn't said ex-scheduler them promenaded before the masses and tasked with delivering ballot notification to BA? Doesn't that strike you as being like politicians getting jobs with the companies they have protected and advantaged during their time in office? Armaments and Thatcher's cabinet, perhaps?
Hmmm. Interesting. Let's see the BASSA response to that. "BASSA 100%
" doesn't count, by the way.Said it before, say it again; absolutely no problem with the crew I work with, they are to a man and a woman deserving of better leadership than they have. It really is time to reform BASSA from the ground up. Indeed, as they claim to be a "progressive" union on their website, could someone perhaps show where they have been "progressive" ever? Like, seriously, ever (as my teenage daughter would say?)
Lions led by donkeys. Time to throw the donkeys over the cliff.
Last edited by Plan 10; 28th Nov 2009 at 21:26.
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I've been following these discussions for the past few weeks along with various other forums and thought I would sign up to let you know that it's not just CC who are appalled by the actions of the unions. I've been BA ground staff for over 20 years and have resigned from Unite because of their handling of this dispute. I cannot sit by and watch my subs going to a Union who is trying their hardest to bring the company I work for to its knees. No more support from me. Good luck to all those CC who are voting no. You have my sincere regards.
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Originally posted by HighFlyer 14
If anyone was under any doubt about the ignorance, incompetence and sheer inefficiency of this Union, this must surely clarify things. They have caused us near on 2 years' worth of stress over New Fleet yet done absolutely nothing constructive about it, they have not asked for and therefore not represented OUR views, and now they haven't even the common sense to run a ballot effectively. It is a shameful waste of the members' hard-earned funds.
Vote No. And save your union subscription - resign.
The above represents my own personal views, and not those of BA.
If anyone was under any doubt about the ignorance, incompetence and sheer inefficiency of this Union, this must surely clarify things. They have caused us near on 2 years' worth of stress over New Fleet yet done absolutely nothing constructive about it, they have not asked for and therefore not represented OUR views, and now they haven't even the common sense to run a ballot effectively. It is a shameful waste of the members' hard-earned funds.
Vote No. And save your union subscription - resign.
The above represents my own personal views, and not those of BA.
I applaud you.
You've summed up what most of us feel about BASSA and their lack of representation.
You should start up a Union and I'll be the first to join. At least we'll have intelligent, sensible and proper representation that is long deserved.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 28th Nov 2009 at 21:43.
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There's a huge issue here which hasn't been addressed at all. Surely if you're going to vote yes, you have to have an idea of what will happen next.
There are plenty who have said on this forum that they will vote yes. Can anyone of them, CFC, PiB etc, explain what they think the yes result will achieve, and what they want to happen after the strike starts?
Or is everyone just voting to 'send a message' to BA with no intention of striking? In which case Bassa is finished.
Yes voters?
There are plenty who have said on this forum that they will vote yes. Can anyone of them, CFC, PiB etc, explain what they think the yes result will achieve, and what they want to happen after the strike starts?
Or is everyone just voting to 'send a message' to BA with no intention of striking? In which case Bassa is finished.
Yes voters?
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Hiflyer14
A Lurker - this is complete nonsense. What source is this "information" from, outside of the Union?
I am sorry but I fail to understand what you are on about????
Let me try to explain in simple terms....
I pay a subscription to an organisation each month, they ask me to vote on something, in the meantime I am going to be leaving that organisation, however as I am still there when asked to vote - well then my vote still counts.
Do you know why? Because up until the final day I can rescind my application to leave - therefore until the day I leave I STILL HAVE A VOTE
VOTE YES AND SUPPORT BASSA
The colours are a copy of wobble2plank and may not be endorsed by BA or BASSA
I am sorry but I fail to understand what you are on about????
Let me try to explain in simple terms....
I pay a subscription to an organisation each month, they ask me to vote on something, in the meantime I am going to be leaving that organisation, however as I am still there when asked to vote - well then my vote still counts.
Do you know why? Because up until the final day I can rescind my application to leave - therefore until the day I leave I STILL HAVE A VOTE
VOTE YES AND SUPPORT BASSA
The colours are a copy of wobble2plank and may not be endorsed by BA or BASSA
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Plan10
Managers have been calling Crew already so your source is lying - I would be happy to play to you the message left on my answerphone at home from my manager on my first MBT day after a long range trip!!!! What is that about - I am on my days off!!!!!!!!
I am also staggered that somebody would think that 'the union' have enough people available to start ringing around crew 'pretending' to be BA management - this is ludicrous surely??????
Stop trying to be clever and hiding your messages in a hidden colour... we are on to you. Go and stand in the corner. Mods
I am also staggered that somebody would think that 'the union' have enough people available to start ringing around crew 'pretending' to be BA management - this is ludicrous surely??????
Stop trying to be clever and hiding your messages in a hidden colour... we are on to you. Go and stand in the corner. Mods
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Managers? Are you so sure? By all means, upload the recordings you have. Please. Prove me wrong that it may well have been BASSA officials posing as BA managers making the calls.
After all, if you really think it through, BA have all to lose and nothing to gain by making such calls. Who would gain from such calls at such an early stage in procedings?
Answer that, my friend, and then we can move on, becuase BA cannot gain from such an early polling or as you may frame it, "intimidation" of staff. It does not make sense.
Over to you.
After all, if you really think it through, BA have all to lose and nothing to gain by making such calls. Who would gain from such calls at such an early stage in procedings?
Answer that, my friend, and then we can move on, becuase BA cannot gain from such an early polling or as you may frame it, "intimidation" of staff. It does not make sense.
Over to you.
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Managers have been calling Crew already so your source is lying - I would be happy to play to you the message left on my answerphone at home from my manager on my first MBT day after a long range trip!!!!
I look forward to you providing this information so that those making accusations that BASSA are using dirty tricks can be put firmly in their place.
And it would also be helpful if you could up load said audio or at least give us an idea of its content.
Then this issue can be closed, can't it?
I wait with baited breath.
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A Lurker, since you say "my manager", I assume you are talking about an individual that you know and with whom this could be confirmed.
As to the guy who objects to pax comments on this thread, I don't think he's CC or even a BA employee. I think he works for some charter outfit, probably as a bog cleaner.
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In fairness Fin, A Lurker made the effort to type out the complete list of impositions for us, and therefore I believe deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
Meanwhile more hits for Cabin Crew to consider when they ponder whether to help or hinder the airline many of them love so much; I daresay BASSA will try and brush it off as more scare tactics, if they mention it at all (or they'll blame it all on Wicked Willie):
Meanwhile more hits for Cabin Crew to consider when they ponder whether to help or hinder the airline many of them love so much; I daresay BASSA will try and brush it off as more scare tactics, if they mention it at all (or they'll blame it all on Wicked Willie):
Shares in British Airways remained grounded as the wider market climbed yesterday amid concerns about the potential costs of complying with new environmental regulations.
BA rose just ½p to 193¾p, lagging the FTSE 100 which rebounded from the previous session’s fall, after Morgan Stanley predicted that the airline could lose 7 per cent of its earnings when it has to pay for its carbon emissions.
Airlines will be included in the EU’s emissions trading scheme from 2012, capping carbon emissions on all flights arriving and departing from airports in the bloc.
Morgan Stanley said that compliance with the new rules would place material financial strain on airlines in what is an already challenging market. The broker added that it thought it would be highly unlikely that free permit allocations would cover the industry’s emissions for next year.
Based on the current price of €13 per tonne of carbon dioxide, the broker said that the rules would wipe €52.6 million off BA’s earnings. It said offsetting its emissions could hit earnings by €149.8 million in 2016 if the credits hit the forecast €37 per tonne of CO2 in that year.
BA rose just ½p to 193¾p, lagging the FTSE 100 which rebounded from the previous session’s fall, after Morgan Stanley predicted that the airline could lose 7 per cent of its earnings when it has to pay for its carbon emissions.
Airlines will be included in the EU’s emissions trading scheme from 2012, capping carbon emissions on all flights arriving and departing from airports in the bloc.
Morgan Stanley said that compliance with the new rules would place material financial strain on airlines in what is an already challenging market. The broker added that it thought it would be highly unlikely that free permit allocations would cover the industry’s emissions for next year.
Based on the current price of €13 per tonne of carbon dioxide, the broker said that the rules would wipe €52.6 million off BA’s earnings. It said offsetting its emissions could hit earnings by €149.8 million in 2016 if the credits hit the forecast €37 per tonne of CO2 in that year.
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Right to vote
A. Lurker,
According to the DirectGov website section on industrial action,
"The right to vote is given to all members the trade union intends to ask to take part in the industrial action"
This does not include those members who will be leaving the airline prior to industrial action by, for example, VR.
As mentioned above, it's only really a problem if the numbers involved are enough to affect the outcome of the vote.
According to the DirectGov website section on industrial action,
"The right to vote is given to all members the trade union intends to ask to take part in the industrial action"
This does not include those members who will be leaving the airline prior to industrial action by, for example, VR.
As mentioned above, it's only really a problem if the numbers involved are enough to affect the outcome of the vote.
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Fincastle, I do not object to passenger input on this forum as I have commented myself. However, how to handle this situation is a matter for the CC of BA not passengers with a political axe to grind. You are not involved, are not an employee and your occasional custom does not equip you with the insight or understanding to interfere in this situation. Mind your own business.
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Plan10
What are you on about??? BASSA officials posing as Managers? - it was MY manager who called I obviously know her well, unless of course they have a very good female impressionist who speaks like her, and who can then magically divert the calls from the number she left for me to call her back on and then do another impression of her when I called !!!!!!!!
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Courtney, this is a public forum of which I am a member, and if I wish to comment on the dispute between BA and BASSA, given that it affects my decision to give BA (and ultimately BA cabin crew) my money, then I intend to keep doing so, and you are not going to stop me or anyone else. Get over it.
BASSA try and do a good job of silencing their critics on their own boards, and they have the power to do so there.
In this thread however, they have the power only to debate the issue with other people who have an interest in the subject. And so far they have patently failed to do so because they know the truth hurts.
Rather than telling people to mind their own business, perhaps I could suggest that, if you don't like it, you go somewhere else.
BASSA try and do a good job of silencing their critics on their own boards, and they have the power to do so there.
In this thread however, they have the power only to debate the issue with other people who have an interest in the subject. And so far they have patently failed to do so because they know the truth hurts.
Rather than telling people to mind their own business, perhaps I could suggest that, if you don't like it, you go somewhere else.
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Lurker
Let's hear it then - you said you would be happy to play it!!!
Back to the debate.
I don't think BA care a damn which way the strike ballot goes or whether there are a few non allowed votes.
When BASSA (Unite, Ms Malone or whoever) failed to get their temporary injunction, they gave an undertaking to the court regarding certain matters.
If I were BA's lawyers, I would be looking to use this to my maximum advantage were strike action to be taken before the matter is returned to court.
I think at the end of the day Unite, who are probably fed up with the BASSA leadership, will eventually scuttle industrial action.
Unite must support all their members and, rightly or wrongly, BA cabin crew earn what may seem a fortune to and enjoy a lifestyle beyond the reach of the average Unite member.
Let's hear it then - you said you would be happy to play it!!!
Back to the debate.
I don't think BA care a damn which way the strike ballot goes or whether there are a few non allowed votes.
When BASSA (Unite, Ms Malone or whoever) failed to get their temporary injunction, they gave an undertaking to the court regarding certain matters.
If I were BA's lawyers, I would be looking to use this to my maximum advantage were strike action to be taken before the matter is returned to court.
I think at the end of the day Unite, who are probably fed up with the BASSA leadership, will eventually scuttle industrial action.
Unite must support all their members and, rightly or wrongly, BA cabin crew earn what may seem a fortune to and enjoy a lifestyle beyond the reach of the average Unite member.
Last edited by finncapt; 29th Nov 2009 at 09:19. Reason: punctuation
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Thinking about it a bit more, since you (Lurker) said it was your manager who rang, perhaps you could name her and allow her to defend her actions on these pages.
She may even have the recording/transcript of the call.
She may even have the recording/transcript of the call.
Last edited by finncapt; 29th Nov 2009 at 09:12. Reason: rewrite
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Courtney, "Enjoy" is hardly the word to use when the creeps that run BASSA risk costing their many members their jobs.
I think is it important that BASSA members have a place to read about the amateurish and destructive behaviour of their so-called leaders as far as relations with the company are concerned.
However, I do realise the pro-BASSA mob love their little cliches and love playing the blame game on everyone else, so call me a union basher if it makes you feel better. Of course, had you bothered to read my comments in this thread where I said well-run unions are important, it might have made you look not quite so ignorant.
It must irritate you intensely that so many people can see through the rather flimsy BASSA facade and this thread continues to offer BA Cabin crew a rather more complete set of facts on which to base their ballot decision - and hopefully their next BASSA election decisions as well.
I think is it important that BASSA members have a place to read about the amateurish and destructive behaviour of their so-called leaders as far as relations with the company are concerned.
However, I do realise the pro-BASSA mob love their little cliches and love playing the blame game on everyone else, so call me a union basher if it makes you feel better. Of course, had you bothered to read my comments in this thread where I said well-run unions are important, it might have made you look not quite so ignorant.
It must irritate you intensely that so many people can see through the rather flimsy BASSA facade and this thread continues to offer BA Cabin crew a rather more complete set of facts on which to base their ballot decision - and hopefully their next BASSA election decisions as well.
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Ah, so you are just enjoying Union bashing Desertia.
Union bashing, as you call it, is just an attempt to find some credibility within the BASSA 'negotiations' up to this point which could, potentially, affect all our jobs.
BASSA have failed their membership. Always remember that war is the ultimate failure of diplomacy. BASSA have had in excess of 9 months to engage BA on an adult level. They constantly claim that BA have been the intransigent ones however from BA, the other Unions and many of the BASSA members themselves it would seem that the scenario actually played out the other way round.
BA have played the negotiations by the book. BASSA don't like any management who actually call their bluff as BASSA don't seem to have anything to back up their claims to be able to retain T's & C's that are so out of touch with the current environment.
If you see the exposure of abject inadequacy as 'bashing' then so be it.
If you feel that the exposure of such is false or unfair then, unlike other BASSA posters, please explain to the 'doubters' in clear English, without the rhetoric and with valid, factual argument.
Good luck.
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I am more than happy for the employees of BA to bash their unions as much as they wish. My point is that they are more than capable of looking after themselves without Fincastle and Desertia sticking their noses in. You are correct Fincastle, I did work for a 'charter outfit' but as a senior training Captain. Your description implies derision, I can assure you that the charter companies are every bit as professional as BA, ask some of the cabin crew. Please don't waste your time sending me pm's, in view of your extreme rudeness in the past, I simply delete them.