British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[bealine]

cheap finance is actually easier to obtain than ever before.

Oh dear, what bull. Where did this little gem come from exactly?!

Sorry, that little gem came from me actually, but I was at the time thinking on a personal level and not from a corporate viewpoint. I have stood corrected since.

May I remind you, please, that using terms like "What Bull" etc and shouting down others without offering any alternative, constructive comment is totally against the spirit of an open forum. Your behaviour is, frankly, insulting.

Moderators - do your bit please!

[overstress]

You are right bealine. I go on a few other forums and, mostly, they are the epitome of politeness and manners. PPRuNe can be a letdown in that respect.

[wobble2plank]

Can we please put this 'over the fence' bickering between Flight Crew and Cabin Crew to bed for once and for all. I understand that the BASSA policy is to cast around through all other departments for comparisons and thus hooks to harangue but there can be no comparisons drawn between any departments.

As has been said before and, moderators I will keep it brief, the pay for flight crew is based upon the costs of procurement of licensed, qualified personnel, training, recurrent training, retention within the current environment and progression/promotion. A totally different cost base than is required for the employment of CC as BA does not stipulate, as for pilots, having the required qualifications prior to joining neither does the company appear to offer long term retention initiatives for CC as application supply is readily available.

So, aside from the fact that the flight crew have modified their T's & C's to more realistically represent the current market position, their union has endeavored to protect their position through meaningful negotiation thus being in the position to exert influence of the future of the department.

Sadly this is where the BASSA 'look over the fence' mentality looks the other way. They have fundamentally failed to see the true reasons behind why any other department has been asked to give less per head than CC. It has been blazoned across their missives in orange and black that it is all unfair and that the CC cuts are funding all the other departments.

If BASSA could engage and look to protecting routes for the current crew, ring fence agreements that will stop new fleet taking all the lucrative routes, organise something similar to the FC Scope clause to protect their membership then that would be proactive negotiation. Unfortunately this will never happen whist the current BASSA reps are in power.

For over 9 months now the predictions have been rolling in about Columbus and New Fleet and BASSA has failed to act sensibly. WW and BA stated back in February that, if no negotiated settlement was reached, imposition would happen. So it should come as no surprise to BASSA that the imposition is coming. Some might say 'stable door and horse'?

[BentleyH]

Ballot wording

Does anybody know when the ballot is coming out?
It will be interesting to see how it's worded. To be credible, it will have to focus on the imposition of reduced crew compliments and future new fleet. If it does, I firmly believe BA will take out an injunction as they believe these changes are non-contractural.
If BASSA had made a pay claim which had been turned down for example, then this would be a legitimate reason to hold a ballot and strike. Unfortunately for them, they have failed to influence the agenda for some time so they are really stuck in how they package their ballot based on the current situation, now that BA has been very careful in what it is imposing. It didn't remove the 2.6% pay cut just to be nice! The T&G will of course run a legal ballot from a proedural pont of view (they've had enough practice over the years!), but this won't stop the company taking out an injunction based on the reason for the strike, assuming BASSA get a yes vote and notify them of strike dates.

This was the whole basis of the legal argument concerning the open skies dispute. When this went before the court, BALPA were made to look rather stupid when asked what the Company had done to individual pilots to warrant strike action. When the answer came back 'nothing' the case was effectively closed!
Whilst the issues are different here of course, the principle is the same.

[bealine]

Can we please put this 'over the fence' bickering between Flight Crew and Cabin Crew to bed for once and for all

If only it was as easy as that, wobble2plank. From reading the forum, and from having details of the BALPA agreement faxed through to me, I can understand the logic of what you guys say on the forum. The only thing is, when you're on this side of the great divide, losing a portion of a salary over £65,000 is a damned sight easier to swallow than losing a percentage £25 or in my case £20K.

Another little bit of the division comes from the ease with which your BALPA representatives struck their deal. Our ground staff TU reps and the cabin crew reps have been spurned time and time again with managers failing to turn up for meetings, and when they did show up, refusing point blank to talk or to enter into any meaningful dialogue.

Yet more bitterness comes from your pilot community's apparent acceptance of the reduced canteen discounts in T5 and refusal to support the GMB / UNITE boycott of the premises - which has legal implications in that our contractual discount reduction has not been accepted! We fully understand that pilots cannot go upstairs to Starbucks or Pret between flights, but we would happily share some of our tea or coffee and a chocolate Hob Nob or two that we bring from home with you, if you would only support us! (Maybe you could pass the word around?) Fraternising with us chappies and chappesses might just break down some of this bickering and back-biting - who knows?

Let's not beat around the bush, many ordinary cabin crew, not Pursers or CSD's - particularly ex-ground colleagues who joined crew in the last few years, are on a salary of below £20K. The allowances make up their shortfall and, with the planned operational changes, it is a high proportion of the allowances that were under threat. Now, I don't know if that issue has been addressed or not with the revised imposition, but that will certainly influence which way the vote is cast.

I certainly have no axe to grind with any of you - I am merely pointing out the whisperings that go on in huddled corners to explain where this division is coming from. I just hope this matter gets resolved and then we can all get our heads down and do what we do best - deliver fantastic customer service!

(The email I received this morning indicates that we, the ground staff, seem to be making headway! Let's hope so!)

[wobble2plank]

bealine,

I fully understand and respect your reasoning. As you have stated many understand the different viewpoints associated with 'departmental' cost cutting. Sadly BASSA fails to recognise that the 'one fits all' strategy doesn't work.

I think the 'ease' of the pilot deal has hidden the years of positioning that BALPA have undertaken in order to have a close working relationship with the flight ops management. That is to the credit of the reps who understand that having close, two way professional ties with the management smooths the negotiating progress. Add to that that the current terms and conditions of the pilots, the working practices and the annual hourly rates flown, achieved through negotiation over the past ten years, are amongst the most cost effective and productive on the market. Once again this is something that BASSA have failed to achieve and, generally, their contact with management has been a frictional affair.

The canteen price increases I am led to believe are down to a reduction in our discount rate (management, apparently, still enjoy 90%). Beautifully dove tailed in with the change from Ritazza to Costa Lot Coffee in a vain attempt to disguise the reduction. There is no acceptance but, when reporting early, there is nowhere else for a coffee except the mud vending machines, one must 'bite the bullet' so to speak. Personally my spend at Costa has been greatly reduced and I would love to bring my own flask in but I just can't put up with the apoplectic looks at security!

Finally I believe we all live to our accustomed means. That saying that any pay cuts, for any of us, hurt. I know that the loss of £4000-£5000 per annum for myself is going to hurt a lot. Any percentile loss will hurt anyone on PAYE irrespective of the initial salary. As far as I know the current contractual changes for the cabin crew won't change their take home. The dispute seems to hinge on projected future earnings with respect to new fleet. BASSA need to be very wary as a similar case cost BALPA an awful lot of money when BA sued for potential revenue loss!

Cuts to the core business will always be difficult to swallow. Modernisation and changes to established working practices will always cause friction. Unless the whole company gets over this period and becomes cohesive then the future investment required to take the company forward and modernise fleets won't be there.

Hopefully this will all get sorted out in the coming weeks. I have no axe to grind with anyone but the BASSA reps who have so failed their membership through stone walling, no, no, no Unionist rhetoric.

Good luck

[Runway vacated]

Yet more bitterness comes from your pilot community's apparent acceptance of the reduced canteen discounts in T5 and refusal to support the GMB / UNITE boycott of the premises

Bealine, this is an example of differing perspectives that underlines the difficulty in comparing different jobs within BA.

For the majority of pilots T5 is somewhere we pass through, not somewhere we spend large periods of time. As a longhaul pilot I probably buy about 10 cups of coffee a year there, for shorthaul it is probably rather more. Due to security restrictions we simply don't have the option of bringing liquids to work, and so the convenience of the coffee shop is just that - convenient. I would not feel comfortable getting into a confrontation over 20p per cup of coffee, just as I would not expect you to get in a lather over the quality of on-board catering.

As for the "ease" with which my union reached a deal, well I can only echo W2P's comments. There was nothing "easy" about it, and as an 11 year veteran of BA I have seen my Ts and Cs nibbled away every year. That is the way of the world.

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by bealine

......The only thing is, when you're on this side of the great divide, losing a portion of a salary over £65,000 is a damned sight easier to swallow than losing a percentage £25 or in my case £20K.

Don;t forget the guy on the bigger salary is taking a bigger proportional cut than you.

Another little bit of the division comes from the ease with which your BALPA representatives struck their deal.

Ease? I take it you weren't party to the shouting matches between our reps and our managers. This 'ease' you speak of is perhaps because our union reps are highly proactive and engage with our managers in a generally productive manner. You'll note the engineers signed off on their deal even earlier than the pilots, although they managed to avoid the accusation of doing a 'sweetheart' deal. As I wrote in an earlier post, I don't think it's a coincidence that the numbers/logic driven work groups sealed deals far earlier than the more emotion driven groups.

Yet more bitterness comes from your pilot community's apparent acceptance of the reduced canteen discounts in T5 and refusal to support the GMB / UNITE boycott of the premises - which has legal implications in that our contractual discount reduction has not been accepted!

When did you last see a pilot in a BA canteen? I've been there twice, each time to collect a Eurest card that I don't use. It's pertinent to note that you describe it as a GMB/UNITE boycott. Not a BALPA boycott. In fact, I don't think anyone even told BALPA about it, and 99% of pilots are unware there's even a boycott going on. It's a bit rich having a go at people for not supporting your aims that you didn't tell them about!

We fully understand that pilots cannot go upstairs to Starbucks or Pret between flights, but we would happily share some of our tea or coffee and a chocolate Hob Nob or two that we bring from home with you, if you would only support us!

Thats just not a realistic proposition bealine. When you're on a 5 day gypsy tour around Europe you've got to eat somewhere, within the time limits of your schedule, and mooching around trying to find someone who'll spare you a cup of tea and a hob nob just isn't going to work.

Let's not beat around the bush, many ordinary cabin crew, not Pursers or CSD's - particularly ex-ground colleagues who joined crew in the last few years, are on a salary of below £20K. The allowances make up their shortfall and, with the planned operational changes, it is a high proportion of the allowances that were under threat.

I know of no full time cabin crew who gross less than £20K, and their net pay is proportionally higher due to the favourable taxation on their meal allowances. BA's proposals involved no pay cut and no new fleet, the two major concerns of most crew, but those proposals were rejected by BASSA. Even the new proposal offers an equivalent payment, payed in a more advantageous way, but it's not up for discussion as BASSA don't like it. One has to ask what BA actually has to do to get cabi crew to work in an efficient manner.

I certainly have no axe to grind with any of you - I am merely pointing out the whisperings that go on in huddled corners to explain where this division is coming from.

I think we all recognise that, but unfortunately we work in a company where the green eyed monster runs rife, actively encouraged by shop stewards and union reps. If we spent the time needed to change that mentality trying to do so we'd never get any work done, and to be frank, a lot of people simply have no interest in hearing the truth because it's uncomfortable.

(The email I received this morning indicates that we, the ground staff, seem to be making headway! Let's hope so!)

Lets hope so too!

[JayPee28bpr]

UNITE seeking injunction against BA

Both BBC and Sky reporting that Unite has now sought an injunction against BA in respect of CC T&C changes. Link to (brief) BBC story below.

BBC NEWS | Business | BA facing union legal challenge

[Juan Tugoh]

Hi Bealine

The problem with the over the fence bickering is that it gets us nowhere and just causes strife within the company between people who are colleagues.

To answer some of the questions you raised. The apparent ease with which the pilots came to an agreement with the company was down to the way in which BALPA approached trhe problem. They, along with all the TUs were invited by BA to examine the company books - all they had to do was sign a non-disclosure agreement, and hey presto they could see the exact nature of the problem facing the company. They were asked to make a level of savings and given free rein to do so, they consulted with the pilots on how to achieve this - productivity or pay or a mixture of both. BALPA then constructed a proposal which met the pilots needs and BA's needs, a ballot was held and an agreement reached.

To compare this with the approach of BASSA and to some extent UNITE. They refused to sign the NDA and were not given access to the company books, refused to accept the need for permanent change and failed to consult their members. A solution to the problem was created and put to BA. BA had the agreement costed out and it was financially ludicrous, and therefore it was rejected. BASSA then refused to negotiate using sensible maths and hey ho here we are with impositition which the company told everyone, in advance, was going to happen.

Unite and BA were "quite close" to an agreement over the A scales and GSS way back in June but coming to an agreement would have left BASSA dangeroiusly exposed and so UNITE registered a failure to agree for all groups. Sad to see union politics playing with peoples lives and jobs in such a fashion.

Secondly the amounts involved. We all build our lives around the bottom right hand corner of the pay statement - it matters not a jot how much you earn it is how much you have at the end of the bills £62 in your case. Debt doesn't care whether you earn a lot or a little. Though I conceed your point that it can look like it is easier for someone earning more to take a pay cut.

The canteen discount is a minor irritation to most pilots. I don't mean to belittle the importance to you here, let me explain. Long Haul crew do 4 or 5 trips a month. Usually you arrive, brief and go to the aircraft - maybe grabbing a coffee on the way but not if you are short of time as you cannot take it through security - besides there will be a cuppa on the plane. Short Haul have a higher exposure to the canteen but again it is not a critical part of their lives. So rather than being accepting of the price changes, rather as a whole we are largely ignorant of it - it does not have a big impact on our lives. It is an issue that most would probably support you on fully if ut were made more important to us.

Finally, cabin crew pay. They, on average earn twice the average rate for crew - a lot more than Virgin, for instance. The basic may be low but the allowances bump up that figure considerably. Also it must be remembered that these allowances are not taxed as income, but at a much lower marginal rate. That is to say a far higher proportion of the money that is earned as allowances ends up in their pockets. This is the same for pilots, the difference being that the pilots do not earn the high allowances having changed the system of allowances about 5 years ago- it is now about £2.80 an hour for pilots and no box payments for late flights. Cabin Crew in BA - even on the new contract still take home a decent wage.

I wish you well in your future, I have no axe to grind - we all have a living to make, but find myself angered when I hear the nonsense of " I would rather take the company down than accept this." We all have a choice, we do not have to work here, if things are so bad, move on. Take your skills and go elsewhere. I do not mean that harshly, just simply don't threaten my mortgage over a fit of pique.

I guess my bottom line is please don't strike unless you are absolutely clear what you want and have done some reading and research of your own. Please do not blindly trust BASSA, their comms are childish and puerile, and often mislead or omit. Do what you must do but be informed about it.

[Joetom]

This is a super thread, great posts by so many, am sure it will make good reading over the next 2 months.

But little appears to have changed over a long time, the T+C reductions for CC are too big for them to accept, I place much blame with the unions and management over many many years for getting to this stage.

Talking to a few (4) CC friends over the last couple of weeks, they all singing the same song, they feel resist changes even up to company going out of business is a betting mans best option, they have all made plans to help their own cash flow should they stop getting paid wages over the winter time.

I do wish all the CC well, but their T+Cs/costs to the airline are just too big in these times for it not to change one way or another, good luck CC.

[Walnut]

An interesting tactic, if they win then the strike ballot will not be necessary, if they lose then the ballot result will become irrelevant.
So it gives the union a wayout. However this is high stakes for BA, so I expect them to cross-petition, as in a Court case the Petitioner usually is able to control the oucome, assuming they are on firm ground.

[cellstar]

Slightly off topic but still within the aviation industry, Boeing has just announced it's going to create a 2nd production line away from its traditional home of Seattle to South Carolina. At least one reason for the move is that South Carolina has been the industrial action (at times for weeks on end) by the machinists union every time their pay contract came up for review. The company had such a fractious relationship with the union that they saw it in the long to expend a massive capital outlay building a new production line for the 787 rather than continue dealing with the machinists strike tactics every few years. Boeing Assembly Line ANNOUNCED: South Carolina Picked For New 787 Plant I would imagine that the Boeing machinists union had much the same convictions that the company cannot do without them and thus they thought they had the upper hand every time, come pay negotiations as perhaps BASSA do? Something to think on anyways.

[Ancient Observer]

CM's sub-editing of the Bassa rant was much better than the original. However, for some reason I'm not sure that Unite would find a job for CM
Shame, really.

[handsome_cadet]

New Fleet Promotion

If BASSA really cared for anyone that joined the company after them (a Quantum "IF", I grant you!) then sure as Shirley they should be fighting for better promotion prospects in the New Fleet, rather than airy-fairy SH*T that BA can't possibly offer... This would go a long way to boost crew morale and possibly diffuse any strike action, which only spells a spectacular disaster - sorry, but it would.. call me old fashioned!

[handsome_cadet]

PS. BASSA will never win a fight against the bigger steamroller of the WW machine - not this time! - so they might as well cut their losses with some realistic, crew-friendly clinchers in the New Fleet...

[midman]

I wonder, if any Bassa acolytes are lurking, what plan B is in the event that the court hearing doesn't go their way?

There would be no point pursuing a strike ballot, that would be financial suicide, so all Bassa eggs are in this one basket?

[Hotel Mode]

Interesting Unite should choose the same QC that BALPA are trying to recover fees from after the allegedly dud advice they were given during the openskies case. Past history of losing against BAs team makes it an interesting choice.

[RoyHudd]

Guff

Reading the recent contributions with great interest. As an outsider from BA and an insider in aviation, (pilot), I am utterly amazed to see that BA Cabin Crew consider their jobs comparable in any way to that of the pilots. This is absolute nonsense. (Doctors/Nurses, Lawyers/Secretaries, etc). The skill-set for CC is so low as to be almost non-existent in comparison to pilots. So why compare the two? My guess is that this is led by CC unions, and followed by ill-educated CC. Very sad.

[Desertia]

Two bits of relevant news

Happy Halloween, BASSA:

(1) Union legal action against British Airways’ plans to impose new pay and conditions on 14,000 cabin crew will be resisted, the company announced last night.

The Unite union announced it was applying for a High Court injunction against the imposition of new contracts for the cabin crew, which it says are due to be brought in on November 16.

A BA spokesman, who revealed the company had received an injunction application from Unite yesterday, said: “The changes do not alter contractual terms and conditions for individual crew and we will resist the injunction application.

Read more: BA vows to resist union?s legal action - Press & Journal

(2) British Airways will this week post its largest ever interim loss as cabin crew prepare to vote on whether to go on strike at Christmas.

The expected £250m pre-tax deficit will underline the harsh trading conditions faced by the airline and stoke fears that full-year losses will be greater than last year’s record £401m shortfall.

Analysts forecast BA will report on Friday an operating deficit of about £127m for the first six months of the financial year — normally a buoyant period as it includes most of the peak summer season.

The pre-tax figure will be nearly double as it includes non-operating items such as currency fluctuations, fuel hedges and redundancy costs. At the halfway stage last year, BA made a pre-tax profit of £52m. In the previous financial year, 2007-8, it made an interim profit of £616m.

(The Times).

But noooooooooooooo, everything is rosy according to the BASSA propoganda machine. BA are just trying to stitch them up!