British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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am-i-bothered,
That article is more or less a month old. We've discussed it earlier in the thread. Is this the article that was referred to a few posts ago?
I think we were looking for something more recent.
Gg
That article is more or less a month old. We've discussed it earlier in the thread. Is this the article that was referred to a few posts ago?
I think we were looking for something more recent.
Gg
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A month old or not the article is still very relevant.
And nothing has happened in the past month to hit the news really.
And Glamgirl I have to say after reading your posts I only feel pity towards you. Pity that you seem to think its cool to work harder for less money and I also feel sorry for you to stoop so low as to copy postings from else where.
And nothing has happened in the past month to hit the news really.
And Glamgirl I have to say after reading your posts I only feel pity towards you. Pity that you seem to think its cool to work harder for less money and I also feel sorry for you to stoop so low as to copy postings from else where.
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AiB
Pity for Glamgirl? Now, I'm sure you know only too well that her posts are mild and reasoned in comparison to those on Crew and BASSA Forums.
I don't believe she has ever said it was "cool" to work harder for less money. Only that she recognised the fact that change is coming and that it is better to prepare for it and (I summarise her general outlook here) negotiate with BA for a more mutually acceptable solution; rather than face the prospect of a contract change imposition.
You can keep up your belief that all the mutual back-patting and "Post here if you'll strike till BA goes under" surveys on the other forums will save us. I don't believe they will.
When this is all over, I'd put a lot of money that the outcome is closer to what GG etc predicted than to the prophesies of PiB and the more pro-BASSA posters.
Only time will tell.
And Glamgirl I have to say after reading your posts I only feel pity towards you. Pity that you seem to think its cool to work harder for less money and I also feel sorry for you to stoop so low as to copy postings from else where.
I don't believe she has ever said it was "cool" to work harder for less money. Only that she recognised the fact that change is coming and that it is better to prepare for it and (I summarise her general outlook here) negotiate with BA for a more mutually acceptable solution; rather than face the prospect of a contract change imposition.
You can keep up your belief that all the mutual back-patting and "Post here if you'll strike till BA goes under" surveys on the other forums will save us. I don't believe they will.
When this is all over, I'd put a lot of money that the outcome is closer to what GG etc predicted than to the prophesies of PiB and the more pro-BASSA posters.
Only time will tell.
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Well lets see change for the benefit of all parties is one thing, change for fat cats to lick the cream at the expense of everyone else is quite another.
The longer this goes on the more farcical it becomes and the harder it is for the incompetent few to assert any authority. In fact they have become a laughing stock. ie working for free.
We are not out of the woods yet, however the recession appears to be drawing to a close, the enconomy is moving again and house prices are on the up. Albeit this could be temporary but all in all positive news.
The longer this goes on the more farcical it becomes and the harder it is for the incompetent few to assert any authority. In fact they have become a laughing stock. ie working for free.
We are not out of the woods yet, however the recession appears to be drawing to a close, the enconomy is moving again and house prices are on the up. Albeit this could be temporary but all in all positive news.
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We are not out of the woods yet, however the recession appears to be drawing to a close, the enconomy is moving again and house prices are on the up.
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Originally Posted by am i bothered
Well lets see change for the benefit of all parties is one thing, change for fat cats to lick the cream at the expense of everyone else is quite another.
The longer this goes on the more farcical it becomes and the harder it is for the incompetent few to assert any authority. In fact they have become a laughing stock. ie working for free.
We are not out of the woods yet, however the recession appears to be drawing to a close, the enconomy is moving again and house prices are on the up. Albeit this could be temporary but all in all positive news.
am i bothered,
You can't have it both ways! One minute saying the economy is on the up and in the next sentence admitting "this could be temporary but all in all positive news". Positive news? How? If the 'swing' is temporary then a whole bunch of folk need to take their medicine now, whilst they still have jobs. If they don't, they are guaranteed no jobs.
A temporary 'swing' is most definitely what it is. My money is on it collapsing even further than it has in the very recent past. Watch.
You can't have it both ways! One minute saying the economy is on the up and in the next sentence admitting "this could be temporary but all in all positive news". Positive news? How? If the 'swing' is temporary then a whole bunch of folk need to take their medicine now, whilst they still have jobs. If they don't, they are guaranteed no jobs.
A temporary 'swing' is most definitely what it is. My money is on it collapsing even further than it has in the very recent past. Watch.
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I know (hope) that everyone realises it, but all that is happening on this forum is people posturing. What is said here is nothing more or less than internet irrelevance.
Some people saying BASSA 100% means diddley squat. Que sera sera, it all comes down to whether or not WW has bigger balls (and more importantly, the finance) than Unite/BASSA. I honestly believe he does.
What matters is the WW/TW meeting that took place yesterday and the more of the ilk that will follow in the next week or so.
As a result there is only possible outcome. The only opportunity that Unite/BASSA had may well have been lost at end June by their stubborn refusal to negotiate and mitigate. All the cards are now in WW's hands. Standby for incoming.... (not me, but BASSA).
Some people saying BASSA 100% means diddley squat. Que sera sera, it all comes down to whether or not WW has bigger balls (and more importantly, the finance) than Unite/BASSA. I honestly believe he does.
What matters is the WW/TW meeting that took place yesterday and the more of the ilk that will follow in the next week or so.
As a result there is only possible outcome. The only opportunity that Unite/BASSA had may well have been lost at end June by their stubborn refusal to negotiate and mitigate. All the cards are now in WW's hands. Standby for incoming.... (not me, but BASSA).
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I didnt realise the word negotiate meant accept whats being demanded without scruitinizing, questioning then coming up with an alternative proposal.
Negotiation is two way. And I am glad that the union have called the companies bluff by offering savings and protecting jobs.
Set a deadline that means nothing, look foolish on sky news by refusing to turn up to talks, two months pass by and still no way close to a solution. Yes the union are to blame. Funny that we could be enjoying hundreds of millions of savings already.
This is not about savings and that is quite clear. Anyone with average intelligence would realize that. So the longer this goes on the better cos the more it invalidates the argument.
Change for the benefit of all parties is one thing. Opportunism is another.
Open skies??? Would you remind everyone what all the fuss was about
Negotiation is two way. And I am glad that the union have called the companies bluff by offering savings and protecting jobs.
Set a deadline that means nothing, look foolish on sky news by refusing to turn up to talks, two months pass by and still no way close to a solution. Yes the union are to blame. Funny that we could be enjoying hundreds of millions of savings already.
This is not about savings and that is quite clear. Anyone with average intelligence would realize that. So the longer this goes on the better cos the more it invalidates the argument.
Change for the benefit of all parties is one thing. Opportunism is another.
Open skies??? Would you remind everyone what all the fuss was about
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aib, I'm not sure you understand the situation from your postings, which appear to be based on different premises from the truth of the matter.
Set a deadline which means nothing? What in fact is a deadline? An arbitrary point in time! BA are the employer, they hold the cards here! They choose deadlines, not BASSA!
Set a deadline which means nothing? What in fact is a deadline? An arbitrary point in time! BA are the employer, they hold the cards here! They choose deadlines, not BASSA!
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AiB said:
"Set a deadline that means nothing, look foolish on sky news by refusing to turn up to talks"
I have to ask, AiB (although I think I know the answer already): Are you by the above sentence referring to the 30th June deadline? When Bassa turned up on the 1st July with SkyNews in tow, even though the deadline for negotiations was the day before? Who ended up looking foolish?
Gg
"Set a deadline that means nothing, look foolish on sky news by refusing to turn up to talks"
I have to ask, AiB (although I think I know the answer already): Are you by the above sentence referring to the 30th June deadline? When Bassa turned up on the 1st July with SkyNews in tow, even though the deadline for negotiations was the day before? Who ended up looking foolish?
Gg
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Am i bothered,
Really, as if posting snippets of information from that self-glorifying nest of vipers that is crewforum on here is stooping to anything other than giving the real world a bit of a laugh. People who threaten one another over there if they don't stick to the mindless 100% BASSA party line because they won't engage in debate? How very adult. Frankly it's not state secrets and it provides some light relief. As for the reaction on there anytime BA squeak and a hundred CC warriors scream "speak to the union", it's outdated, and belies the inability of many to deal with anything by themselves nor without involving BASSA in the minutiae of everyday corporate life. Oh, and don't spin the hackneyed line that if you didn't go to BASSA, that BA would run you ragged - really, over every mundane little thing that you should be able to sort out in an adult manner with a BA manager?
Can it then really come as any surprise that BA insist on hard-nosed adherence to rules and regulations when your beloved union won't allow you any flexibility on your agreements? It's quid pro quo frankly. (Vis the character who complained about being put on a disciplinary because they couldn't be bothered to turn up for two InTouch days. "Call the union" was one of the first replies. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and, for once, sanity reigned.)
Funny how there's a hundred chief executives on there, none of whom actually run the company.
Lots of growing up to do, regardless of the outcome of this current scenario. BASSA and the CC do not get to tell the company how it's run, we work for BA, not the other way round.
MrB
Really, as if posting snippets of information from that self-glorifying nest of vipers that is crewforum on here is stooping to anything other than giving the real world a bit of a laugh. People who threaten one another over there if they don't stick to the mindless 100% BASSA party line because they won't engage in debate? How very adult. Frankly it's not state secrets and it provides some light relief. As for the reaction on there anytime BA squeak and a hundred CC warriors scream "speak to the union", it's outdated, and belies the inability of many to deal with anything by themselves nor without involving BASSA in the minutiae of everyday corporate life. Oh, and don't spin the hackneyed line that if you didn't go to BASSA, that BA would run you ragged - really, over every mundane little thing that you should be able to sort out in an adult manner with a BA manager?
Can it then really come as any surprise that BA insist on hard-nosed adherence to rules and regulations when your beloved union won't allow you any flexibility on your agreements? It's quid pro quo frankly. (Vis the character who complained about being put on a disciplinary because they couldn't be bothered to turn up for two InTouch days. "Call the union" was one of the first replies. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and, for once, sanity reigned.)
Funny how there's a hundred chief executives on there, none of whom actually run the company.
Lots of growing up to do, regardless of the outcome of this current scenario. BASSA and the CC do not get to tell the company how it's run, we work for BA, not the other way round.
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Am i bothered / Computer says no!!! 
It doesn't and that's why BA set BASSA a deadline of June 30th. Before that point (and arguably during the ACAS meetings) BASSA had a chance to scrutinise, question, poll their members as to the most acceptable solution and come up with an alternative proposal that met BA's savings target.
As it was, we saw BASSA propose cost savings that were assessed independently by PWC as being worth approximately 1/3rd of their claim (£54m vs £173m)
Well, at this very moment in time this IS still up for debate. On one side we have those who think your way, on the other we have those who don't think BA wanted this, but that they certainly planned for it.
The facts are that BA set the June 30th deadline to give focus and because they needed the cost savings agreed by then. If they weren't, we have exactly what us CC are now facing - higher savings to be made because we were tardy in agreeing. Other groups managed to negotiate by this date (engineers and flight crew) others did not. When the deadline passed the next step (in Willie's plan?) was ACAS. There was no meeting scheduled for July 1st, BA had always made that clear. However, in a PR exercise, BASSA turned up to the non-existent meeting with the press, screaming "look, BA aren't even here!". Why would they be?
But BASSA didn't turn up for many many meetings leading up to the deadline, not the other way round. Trust me on this!
Also, BASSA's "savings" weren't enough. So ask yourself, why would WW not accept this inferior BASSA offer if he was running scared or didn't really need to make the full savings? What is his motivation? Sheer malice? If so, not a great way to keep himself in a job as he'll be unable to justify it.
So what is it about? Please be clear. Why does time invalidate the argument? Because of the "recovery"? If so, can I assume that a further downturn will have you claiming that Willie's stance is more relevant?
I didnt realise the word negotiate meant accept whats being demanded without scruitinizing, questioning then coming up with an alternative proposal.
As it was, we saw BASSA propose cost savings that were assessed independently by PWC as being worth approximately 1/3rd of their claim (£54m vs £173m)
Negotiation is two way. And I am glad that the union have called the companies bluff by offering savings and protecting jobs.
Set a deadline that means nothing, look foolish on sky news by refusing to turn up to talks
two months pass by and still no way close to a solution. Yes the union are to blame. Funny that we could be enjoying hundreds of millions of savings already.
Also, BASSA's "savings" weren't enough. So ask yourself, why would WW not accept this inferior BASSA offer if he was running scared or didn't really need to make the full savings? What is his motivation? Sheer malice? If so, not a great way to keep himself in a job as he'll be unable to justify it.
This is not about savings and that is quite clear. Anyone with average intelligence would realize that. So the longer this goes on the better cos the more it invalidates the argument.
Last edited by Nutjob; 29th Aug 2009 at 14:53.
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The amount that BA want from each group is fixed - it has already been stated. The time period over which those savings are required is fixed and has been stated. Delaying does not change either of these, indeed it just means that the savings will be recouped over an ever reducing time period - they will be more severe. BASSA has done its members no favours on this, the longer time goes by the worse for its members the changes will be. WW on the other hand has neatly pushed any likely industrial action away from the school holidays and the nasty headlines of BA ruining lots of holidays. Without going much further BASSA have not played this smartly.
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The amount that BA want from each group is fixed - it has already been stated. The time period over which those savings are required is fixed and has been stated. Delaying does not change either of these, indeed it just means that the savings will be recouped over an ever reducing time period - they will be more severe.
That is what I meant when I rather inarticulately wrote "we have exactly what us CC are now facing - higher savings to be made because we were tardy in agreeing.".
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From the Amicus Twi tter feed;
http://*******.com/amicuscabincrew
(edited to add that pprune filters out the word "twi tter" if you dont put a space in, hence all the *s that come up above)
Sub – NSP Talks. At yesterdays meeting the Unite Joint General Secs agreed that your Amicus Section Reps will meet with BA on the 11th Sept
On the main page of the . WEBSITE FRONT PAGE site, it says there is an Aug 28th update, but the site is pretty shoddily put together and the actual update is missing. (I think the person that updates the site doesn't actually check it afterwards!)
I guess the 'main' BASSA reps will be meeting on the 11th too. Looks like BA's plan to string this out until any possible strikes are in a quiet period are coming along well.
http://*******.com/amicuscabincrew
(edited to add that pprune filters out the word "twi tter" if you dont put a space in, hence all the *s that come up above)
Sub – NSP Talks. At yesterdays meeting the Unite Joint General Secs agreed that your Amicus Section Reps will meet with BA on the 11th Sept
On the main page of the . WEBSITE FRONT PAGE site, it says there is an Aug 28th update, but the site is pretty shoddily put together and the actual update is missing. (I think the person that updates the site doesn't actually check it afterwards!)
I guess the 'main' BASSA reps will be meeting on the 11th too. Looks like BA's plan to string this out until any possible strikes are in a quiet period are coming along well.
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Or could it be that BA are trying to avoid a strike. Fullstop.
One point. Whilst the savings targets for other departments may have been set, they were not for cabin crew. The initial figure of £82million was scrapped in favour of job reductions which could save double the original amount. And, herein lies a problem for cabin crew unions and indeed BA. The goalposts keep moving. Perhaps if the initial figure of £82million had been set in stone, then maybe cabin crew would have been much closer to the savings by now, if not achieved.
The vast majority of crew who do not subscribe to crewforum believe that change is necessary but that Walsh is taking the opportunity to go further. I don't blame him, thats the game, but at some stage I believe he will need to see that his stance can only bring damage to the company in the long term. For matters to move the first compromise has to come from him.
One point. Whilst the savings targets for other departments may have been set, they were not for cabin crew. The initial figure of £82million was scrapped in favour of job reductions which could save double the original amount. And, herein lies a problem for cabin crew unions and indeed BA. The goalposts keep moving. Perhaps if the initial figure of £82million had been set in stone, then maybe cabin crew would have been much closer to the savings by now, if not achieved.
The vast majority of crew who do not subscribe to crewforum believe that change is necessary but that Walsh is taking the opportunity to go further. I don't blame him, thats the game, but at some stage I believe he will need to see that his stance can only bring damage to the company in the long term. For matters to move the first compromise has to come from him.