British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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If I remember correctly (based on previous BALPA ballots):
The ballot would have to run for three weeks to allow every member a chance to vote. This takes into account leave, part-time and those away on trips. Once the result is announced, the union then has to give the company seven days notice of each intended strike date. I think the union has an element of control over when it chooses to release the ballot result but that's more or less the timescale.
In summary, it's a minimum of four weeks from the start of the ballot to the first day of a strike.
The ballot would have to run for three weeks to allow every member a chance to vote. This takes into account leave, part-time and those away on trips. Once the result is announced, the union then has to give the company seven days notice of each intended strike date. I think the union has an element of control over when it chooses to release the ballot result but that's more or less the timescale.
In summary, it's a minimum of four weeks from the start of the ballot to the first day of a strike.
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The latest Bassa publication....
Tony Woodley and Willie Walsh meeting update
The meeting between Tony Woodley, General Secretary of UNITE, and British Airways CEO Willie Walsh, took place on Thursday 27th August. Tony was also accompanied by UNITE’S Amicus section General Secretary Derek Simpson, who covers the Cabin Crew 89/Amicus branch.
Tony had spent time with your BASSA conveners, along with our National Secretary Steve Turner, and was fully briefed on the issues that we currently face and our final position. This meeting is a required part of the process when there is a break down in industrial relations after your union registered a “failure to agree”.
As BASSA previously advised the purpose of this meeting was not to undertake negotiation on your behalf, but to see if there are any final opportunities for further discussion to try and reach an agreement that would be acceptable to both sides.
With that in mind, a further meeting can now take place for the week beginning 21st September. This meeting will now involve National Secretary Steve Turner, your BASSA reps and British Airways People Director, Tony McCarthy.
As a responsible Trade Union we will always continue to work to find a fair solution. Industrial action is always a last resort. However British Airways final position remains unacceptable.
It has been agreed that at these negotiations both sides will approach it without preconditions, in theory a supposed blank piece of paper.
The reality is somewhat different in so far as British Airways has already set in place plans to imminently impose the changes they desire, and to break our existing agreements. It remains to be seen how genuine the company’s desire is to attain a negotiated settlement as opposed to imposition.
The severance and part-time offers will continue from now until the end of October. On the 31st October it is a fact that there will be two thousand less crew than we currently have today. To continue with the same flying programme at all bases, British Airways will attempt to break our agreements by reducing crewing levels, days off and down route rest. Worryingly, new fleet has also been raised once again.
When this occurs, and the rosters reflecting this are published, industrial conflict will be inevitable and a ballot for industrial action will then take place.
Gg
Tony Woodley and Willie Walsh meeting update
The meeting between Tony Woodley, General Secretary of UNITE, and British Airways CEO Willie Walsh, took place on Thursday 27th August. Tony was also accompanied by UNITE’S Amicus section General Secretary Derek Simpson, who covers the Cabin Crew 89/Amicus branch.
Tony had spent time with your BASSA conveners, along with our National Secretary Steve Turner, and was fully briefed on the issues that we currently face and our final position. This meeting is a required part of the process when there is a break down in industrial relations after your union registered a “failure to agree”.
As BASSA previously advised the purpose of this meeting was not to undertake negotiation on your behalf, but to see if there are any final opportunities for further discussion to try and reach an agreement that would be acceptable to both sides.
With that in mind, a further meeting can now take place for the week beginning 21st September. This meeting will now involve National Secretary Steve Turner, your BASSA reps and British Airways People Director, Tony McCarthy.
As a responsible Trade Union we will always continue to work to find a fair solution. Industrial action is always a last resort. However British Airways final position remains unacceptable.
It has been agreed that at these negotiations both sides will approach it without preconditions, in theory a supposed blank piece of paper.
The reality is somewhat different in so far as British Airways has already set in place plans to imminently impose the changes they desire, and to break our existing agreements. It remains to be seen how genuine the company’s desire is to attain a negotiated settlement as opposed to imposition.
The severance and part-time offers will continue from now until the end of October. On the 31st October it is a fact that there will be two thousand less crew than we currently have today. To continue with the same flying programme at all bases, British Airways will attempt to break our agreements by reducing crewing levels, days off and down route rest. Worryingly, new fleet has also been raised once again.
When this occurs, and the rosters reflecting this are published, industrial conflict will be inevitable and a ballot for industrial action will then take place.
Gg
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.....to continue with the same flying programme...... Um, well it won't be the same, as aircraft are being grounded. Yet another BASSA missive which is high on rhetoric, and low on fact.
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What really gets me, is the way the "letter" is written. Added at the end is a little sentence about New fleet being mentioned. Plenty of people will jump at this and say "who/what/where/when/why?".
More facts and info is needed to their members, not just hints at things that (might) have been mentioned.
Gg
More facts and info is needed to their members, not just hints at things that (might) have been mentioned.
Gg
Tactics, and timing
Tactics, and timing.......
I'm beginning to think that BA have played a canny game here. As CM posted much earlier in this thread, there is a timetable to observe. If they meet late September, the odds are they will meet again - quite quickly. Then, BA will want to release those it currently has on conditional release. (early October?) Then the changes will probably be implemented. (Mid October?). They will mainly be applying lgw norms to lhr, plus getting folk (a) to turn up for work, and (b) to do some work. V difficult for Unite to disagree with. Then there's 4 weeks of ballot/notification.
So the earliest that any official "action" can take place is now in November.
A low period when seats are more or less given away. All BA need to do is to get folk back to work for about 10th December for the Christmas rush - having "let go" some of the older, "senior" and more expensive staff, and let go some of the folk that are only there for political reasons..
This will be interesting.
I'm beginning to think that BA have played a canny game here. As CM posted much earlier in this thread, there is a timetable to observe. If they meet late September, the odds are they will meet again - quite quickly. Then, BA will want to release those it currently has on conditional release. (early October?) Then the changes will probably be implemented. (Mid October?). They will mainly be applying lgw norms to lhr, plus getting folk (a) to turn up for work, and (b) to do some work. V difficult for Unite to disagree with. Then there's 4 weeks of ballot/notification.
So the earliest that any official "action" can take place is now in November.
A low period when seats are more or less given away. All BA need to do is to get folk back to work for about 10th December for the Christmas rush - having "let go" some of the older, "senior" and more expensive staff, and let go some of the folk that are only there for political reasons..
This will be interesting.
"The latest Bassa publication", as made available above, is unbelievably contradictory:
There has been very little evidence of that, and plenty of evidence to the contrary, a lot of it on this and other forums!
A bald statement that is completely contradicted by the likes of:
Does that sound like a union a that is prepared to "approach it without preconditions, in theory a supposed blank piece of paper."? No, it most certainly is not.
but BASSA seem unembarrassed to follow that with:
So, actually, BASSA's 'position' is nothing more than "the only way is BASSA's way" and they have no wish to negotiate a thing. BASSA wants all the toys and sod everybody else. The message just isn't getting through, but then given the track record, no-one should really be surprised. BASSA are utterly determined to make idiots of themselves, and willingly fail to really represent and negotiate on behalf of their members. Ho-hum, if they are willing to self destruct why should anybody stop them? 
As a responsible Trade Union we will always continue to work to find a fair solution.
It has been agreed that at these negotiations both sides will approach it without preconditions, in theory a supposed blank piece of paper.
However British Airways final position remains unacceptable.
Industrial action is always a last resort.
....... industrial conflict will be inevitable and a ballot for industrial action will then take place.
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Facts Not drivel
I'm one of the many silent crew members that's really concerned about whats occurring. I don't agree with BA's proposals, but do understand that permanent change is required.
I've joined this forum because I'm after some real facts instead of the absolute drivel that appears on the Crew and Bassa forums from the very vocal mindless Bassa 100% brigade.
If anybody could shed some light on some of the questions I have I would be extremely grateful!
Can BA implement their proposals without agreement from Bassa?
From previous posts I understand it will take approx four weeks from the start of the ballot to the first day of a strike, what happens in between, do I have to work to the new imposed proposals or stick with my agreed terms and conditions?
What happens if I refuse to work the new proposals?
Thanks in advance!
I've joined this forum because I'm after some real facts instead of the absolute drivel that appears on the Crew and Bassa forums from the very vocal mindless Bassa 100% brigade.
If anybody could shed some light on some of the questions I have I would be extremely grateful!
Can BA implement their proposals without agreement from Bassa?
From previous posts I understand it will take approx four weeks from the start of the ballot to the first day of a strike, what happens in between, do I have to work to the new imposed proposals or stick with my agreed terms and conditions?
What happens if I refuse to work the new proposals?
Thanks in advance!
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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First and foremost, I'm not a legal eagle however previous experience and information (there's a novelty!!) from BALPA tells us the following:
Yes, it's their train set. They can do what they like. In practice though, to prevent any action from BASSA, they would have to use a legal mechanism called "Some Other Substantial Reason" (SOSR). Google that or look back over this and other threads for more information.
You have to work to whatever conditions have been imposed by BA. If you strike legally and are successful, you can then revert to whatever will have been negotiated following the return to work. If you refuse to work to the imposed conditions prior to a legal strike, it will be deemed in law to be unlawful industrial action and you can be sacked.
In law it will be unlawful industrial action and you will be sacked.
If BA are successful in their use of SOSR, you would be legally prevented from striking and if you failed to sign a new "imposed" contract, you would be deemed to have resigned.
I would have thought BASSA would have told you all that.
Edit: You have to ask yourself whether:
a) there are sufficient grounds for a strike. If not, it will be legally stopped.
b) if there are sufficient grounds, whether there will be sufficient support (and I don't mean a 95% vote in favour, I mean all 95% being prepared to walk)
c) if you can get everyone to walk, whether it will achieve your aim.
If you can confidently answer "yes" to all of the above, you know what you have to do. If not, you're just going to have to suck it up.
Can BA implement their proposals without agreement from Bassa?
From previous posts I understand it will take approx four weeks from the start of the ballot to the first day of a strike, what happens in between, do I have to work to the new imposed proposals or stick with my agreed terms and conditions?
What happens if I refuse to work the new proposals?
If BA are successful in their use of SOSR, you would be legally prevented from striking and if you failed to sign a new "imposed" contract, you would be deemed to have resigned.
I would have thought BASSA would have told you all that.
Edit: You have to ask yourself whether:
a) there are sufficient grounds for a strike. If not, it will be legally stopped.
b) if there are sufficient grounds, whether there will be sufficient support (and I don't mean a 95% vote in favour, I mean all 95% being prepared to walk)
c) if you can get everyone to walk, whether it will achieve your aim.
If you can confidently answer "yes" to all of the above, you know what you have to do. If not, you're just going to have to suck it up.
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Meal Chucker
You need to try and remember who is your employer. Is it BA, or is it BASSA?
Go onto the BA website, and have a look at EG901. If you then go onto the "Policy" part, you can see that you can be disciplined for "disobedience of lawful and reasonable orders".
So, say after the new short-haul catering starts on 1 September, the company may decide that it no longer requires the previous number of crew on a flight, as there is non no requirement for them. If it is legal, they can reasonably expect you to work as they require. To say "I am not going to operate that flight with only "x" number of crew, you would be liable for disciplinary action under EG901.
Also, do a little web research looking up SOSR (Some Other Substantial Reason) as Human Factor suggested. You will find that it is perfectly legal for an employer to change your contract if they require it for the good of the business. It is also perfedtly legal for an employer to dismiss your, for SOSR. Here is a link from the TUC (Trades Union Congress) jargon buster: five statutory fair reasons - from workSMART.org.uk
I think you will find that BASSA have been a little economical with the truth.
You need to try and remember who is your employer. Is it BA, or is it BASSA?
Go onto the BA website, and have a look at EG901. If you then go onto the "Policy" part, you can see that you can be disciplined for "disobedience of lawful and reasonable orders".
So, say after the new short-haul catering starts on 1 September, the company may decide that it no longer requires the previous number of crew on a flight, as there is non no requirement for them. If it is legal, they can reasonably expect you to work as they require. To say "I am not going to operate that flight with only "x" number of crew, you would be liable for disciplinary action under EG901.
Also, do a little web research looking up SOSR (Some Other Substantial Reason) as Human Factor suggested. You will find that it is perfectly legal for an employer to change your contract if they require it for the good of the business. It is also perfedtly legal for an employer to dismiss your, for SOSR. Here is a link from the TUC (Trades Union Congress) jargon buster: five statutory fair reasons - from workSMART.org.uk
I think you will find that BASSA have been a little economical with the truth.
Last edited by Andyismyname; 31st Aug 2009 at 16:28. Reason: Adding TUC link
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Thanks for the reply.
I honestly believe that BA's proposals are a step to far but as for Bassa's counter proposal clumsy and pathetic at best. I understand that BA requires us to drag our terms and conditions into 21st century and agree there are many areas that we could work smarter at very little cost to us and our working lives.
I have little appetite for strike action and firmly believe that Bassa have led us to this. Whilst they have done a fantastic job of hanging onto our agreements I can't help thinking that over the years they should really have been negotiating and gaining something in return for giving up various agreements instead of now where they are just going to be taken.
I take hope in the fact that BA and Bassa now seem to be talking and who knows, maybe they can come to some agreement.
I honestly believe that BA's proposals are a step to far but as for Bassa's counter proposal clumsy and pathetic at best. I understand that BA requires us to drag our terms and conditions into 21st century and agree there are many areas that we could work smarter at very little cost to us and our working lives.
I have little appetite for strike action and firmly believe that Bassa have led us to this. Whilst they have done a fantastic job of hanging onto our agreements I can't help thinking that over the years they should really have been negotiating and gaining something in return for giving up various agreements instead of now where they are just going to be taken.
I take hope in the fact that BA and Bassa now seem to be talking and who knows, maybe they can come to some agreement.
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It seems that BASSA are playing their cards particularly well.
HF a couple of postings above summarises this well. BA can do what they like. However if there is an employer determined to impose change, as BA is, then there is very little that BASSA can do about it in the current (SOSR) climate.
The gravy train has left the station.
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Oh dear. Over on the backslapping forum they're congratulating themselves on seeing out the 90 days notice and how Willie can't change their contracts. Seems they really do have no idea what they're getting into. Sorry to disappoint you folks but the 90 days notice is for compulsory redundancies and it's reached on 1st September. If Woodley doesn't play ball BA can pop 2000 CR letters in the post any time he likes now, and people will be getting their P45s in the run up to Christmas. Oops, what happened to that resolve to fight changes in contract terms?
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Carnage, I am still amazed how my colleagues do not have the initiative to do a little independent research.
A quick search on "HR1" would have taken them to a Goverment site which explains the HR1 form, and it's process. As you know, for a company the size of BA they have to give 90 days notice prior to making the 2000 redundant.
Why are they so incapable of thinking for themselves?
A quick search on "HR1" would have taken them to a Goverment site which explains the HR1 form, and it's process. As you know, for a company the size of BA they have to give 90 days notice prior to making the 2000 redundant.
Why are they so incapable of thinking for themselves?
Last edited by Andyismyname; 1st Sep 2009 at 07:26.
Andyismyname,
This is the bit that disappoints the most, I guess. A noticeably large element of the BASSA membership just don't seem to 'think' past their noses and BASSA's cosy, but flawed, little world. Is it because BASSA smothers them the instant they join the company? I don't know.
In any event, the utter failure to exercise their grey matter outside of the fantasy kingdom of BASSA-land is now going to bite them - big time! And the BASSA leadership (.... I hesitate to use the word 'leadership' there ....) is going to take a pasting, but that is probably not a bad thing. They are rubbish.
Why are they so incapable of thinking for themselves?
In any event, the utter failure to exercise their grey matter outside of the fantasy kingdom of BASSA-land is now going to bite them - big time! And the BASSA leadership (.... I hesitate to use the word 'leadership' there ....) is going to take a pasting, but that is probably not a bad thing. They are rubbish.
I've been the senior person responsible for far too many HR1s in two different sectors in my career - (I managed to avoid it in Aviation).
What I don't understand is that when I've been involved in them, we've talked to the relevant TUs all the way through. Tactically, that has helped the employer, the employees and the TUs. The folk impacted should be the primary focus of all in these bad times.
I'm puzzled by what's on this thread about the HR1s. Either BA have not talked to BASSA, or BASSA are being economical with the truth about what the HR 1s mean. BASSA's only technical defence could be that BA did not enter in to meaningful negotiations about either the rationale, or the method of implementing the redundancies. However, on the former, their own savings offer has removed that defence, and on the latter, a primarily "voluntary" process removes most of that defence.
Are they just not talking, or are there some porkies in the process??
What I don't understand is that when I've been involved in them, we've talked to the relevant TUs all the way through. Tactically, that has helped the employer, the employees and the TUs. The folk impacted should be the primary focus of all in these bad times.
I'm puzzled by what's on this thread about the HR1s. Either BA have not talked to BASSA, or BASSA are being economical with the truth about what the HR 1s mean. BASSA's only technical defence could be that BA did not enter in to meaningful negotiations about either the rationale, or the method of implementing the redundancies. However, on the former, their own savings offer has removed that defence, and on the latter, a primarily "voluntary" process removes most of that defence.
Are they just not talking, or are there some porkies in the process??
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AO, there was a deadline BASSA missed, so long ago I've forgotten the date.
BASSA as part of a much larger union has no excuse for its failure to pass on the knowledge is must posess re HR1s. This, I fear, will come to haunt them some time soon.
When the members realise how exposed they are, I predict meltdown for BASSA.
BASSA as part of a much larger union has no excuse for its failure to pass on the knowledge is must posess re HR1s. This, I fear, will come to haunt them some time soon.
When the members realise how exposed they are, I predict meltdown for BASSA.
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There is certainly a lack of information and facts from unions, considering how many people don't realise what the consequences of the current dispute are. Some crew think it would be perfectly legal to not turn up for work or indeed refuse to take off if new crew levels are forced by the company (!)
Gg
Ps. A big thank you to BB (whoever you are). You're indeed a brave soul - feel free to pm anytime.
Gg
Ps. A big thank you to BB (whoever you are). You're indeed a brave soul - feel free to pm anytime.
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Totally incorrect Glamgirl.
Only today I spoke to a Union rep who made it very clear of where WE are at. If you belong to a Union I suggest you do the same.
As for your goody-goody approach re everybody else is in the wrong or they just don't know ... maybe you should take up the offer and discuss all on other forums at the end of which I'm sure you'd be a lot clearer.
Having given this forum a miss for a while, it amazes me that the same old posters are still at it - giving their 'expert' views.
Its a shame they do not spend more time looking at BA (thats of course me thinking they work/still work for BA) and making comment on what must be the worst management this company has ever had.
Only today I spoke to a Union rep who made it very clear of where WE are at. If you belong to a Union I suggest you do the same.
As for your goody-goody approach re everybody else is in the wrong or they just don't know ... maybe you should take up the offer and discuss all on other forums at the end of which I'm sure you'd be a lot clearer.
Having given this forum a miss for a while, it amazes me that the same old posters are still at it - giving their 'expert' views.
Its a shame they do not spend more time looking at BA (thats of course me thinking they work/still work for BA) and making comment on what must be the worst management this company has ever had.
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on what must be the worst management this company has ever had.
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CFC, could you enlighten me as what you think the effect the passing of the 90 th day since the HR1 was filed, and the possible impact of SOSR on existing contracts and agreements?