British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[midman]

Discretion is the Captain's responsibility.

The problem is if you have a cabin crewmember on board who wants to stick with his industrial limits which might be more restrictive than the Captain's discretion limits.

In which case Bassa will almost always tell the crewmember not to operate, and the union will tell cabin crew ops that the crew are out of hours and the flight will not go (unless a second crew can be found).

So Bassa run the operation and there's virtually nothing the Captain can do.

This is what WW wants to change, and Bassa don't like it one bit. (See Bassa's briefing to the city above.)

[Glamgirl]

A couple of sentences I found somewhere else... (yes, I'm naughty again)

You may disagree with the premise for the ballot and the result if it is contrary to your view, but in a democracy and for democracy to function at all, the minority must support the majority.

If you vote NO and then make yourself available to BA for work, you are underminding the fundemental roots of democracy and your colleagues who later you will have to work alongside.

Not sure whether to laugh or cry. Maybe the original poster meant something else from what I read into it, but in that case it's badly put.

Gg

[Lord Bracken]

What that poster is basically saying is that those who have voted No should (in BASSA's view) still strike if the overall vote is Yes.

It's a pretty loose interpretation of how a democracy works.

[Desertia]

It's a pretty loose interpretation of how a democracy works.

Actually it's a not even that good. The whole point of a democracy is that the minority (and in fact ANYONE) must regularly challenge their leadership to justify themselves or their actions, and if they are unable to do so satisfactorily, they must be removed.

Democracy fails when the leadership are able to quell any dissent. An example of this is BASSA leaders and their loudmouthed stormtroopers shouting down any questioning of, or disagreement with their actions on the forums on which they have control. They are an oligarchy.

I could argue that it is closer to fascism than it is to democracy or liberalism.

You can tell how much they wish to retain control of what their members see by their futile attempts at excluding people such as myself and fincastle from this forum, despite the fact we have every right to be interested in the future of our national carrier.

[JayPee28bpr]

But isn't it unfair that, having voted No, a person is free to undermine any consequent strike, but if a person strikes in spite of a No vote they (more likely their Union) face damages? I think people should have the choice to follow their conscience, but it seems fair that the consequences ought to be balanced. So, if people do undermine the collective position (ie work following a Yes vote), shouldn't they be open to similar claims for damages by their colleagues/Union, as is the case where strikes are not properly sanctioned? And isn't that a better solution than the risk of harrasment etc that many have expressed fears of on here?

You can't have it all ways guys.

[wobble2plank]

Cabin services and discretion are the responsibility of the Captain.
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But only, at the moment, after the Great God BASSA have been consulted and a few goats sacrificed!

If the great God BASSA say NO! then you could just as easily move a mountain as get the crew to go into discretion. Not the fault of the crew but more of the rather intimidating attitude of the Union as espoused by

If you vote NO and then make yourself available to BA for work, you are underminding (SP x 50 BASSA 'undermining') the fundemental (Sp x 50 BASSA 'fundamental') roots of democracy and your colleagues who later you will have to work alongside.

Great stuff.

[52049er]

I'm not sure I disagree with BASSA's (rather badly expressed) message on this one. If my Union called a strike, gained a majority to do it, and I had voted no, I would accept the collective position and withdraw my labour. No point in being in a 'union' otherwise.

Likewise, in a democracy the minorities have to accept the rule of the majority. The idea is that you win the argument so your rules become the accepted ones. You can't just ignore certain laws/decisions because you don't agree with them, otherwise who would pay tax?

[winstonsmith]

being home at night) want a load of low paying trips to Africa and Canada in the middle of the winter? Did anyone actually ask them?

767 going over to EF was part of UNITE's proposal and AFAIK they never asked their members.

EF crew are going mad because the ET Purser has been replaced with a main crew member. Wait - have they forgotten UNITE actually proposed this too?

767 goes to DAR, EBB, LUN, NAS, YYC and some US destinations. Some of them pay good but most of them are the lowest paid WW destinations.

Can you imagine if BA suggested using WW crew on a 777 to do the night moscow? Or the day moscow?

The day DME would trigger an ERD the day before the trip.

It would be the same if LCA came over to WW - and BA could fill a 777 on the route - it would need an ERD unless they changed the schedule - and 2 MBT- and the trip would in total be 5 days. Economical?

[binsleepen]

I do reluctantly have some sympathy with the view that if you vote no and lose you do have a moral obligation not to undermine the majority of your fellow union members. (Just as a member of the cabinet has to tow the government line if they wish to remain in the government). However just like a member of the cabinet if you don't like a policy or the result of a vote you are free to return to the back benches or in this case resign from the union and continue to work.

There are obviously many CC who are not union members, and therefore had no vote, and should be supported to the full extent of the law to go to work free of threats or intimidation if that is their wish.

Regards

[wobble2plank]

52049er,

I'm not sure I disagree with BASSA's (rather badly expressed) message on this one. If my Union called a strike, gained a majority to do it, and I had voted no, I would accept the collective position and withdraw my labour. No point in being in a 'union' otherwise.

Likewise, in a democracy the minorities have to accept the rule of the majority. The idea is that you win the argument so your rules become the accepted ones. You can't just ignore certain laws/decisions because you don't agree with them, otherwise who would pay tax?

Fundamentally I agree with you.

The difficulties come with both those who are not in the Union and also on the demographics of the Union Vote.

Both of your, quite correct, views could be destroyed if a low vote percentile were returned with a high 'Yes' volume. Would you then be advocating that the majority accede to the wishes of the minority in a 'One out, all out' strike?

The problem for BASSA would be where less than 50% return produces a 'Yes' vote on 75% of those returned. You would then have a strike called on a majority of 3/8th of the eligible vote representing a minority of the membership.

I think the fundamentally important factor in this whole process is, whatever your view, make sure you use and cast your vote. Apathy achieved the Labour party its last victory don't let apathy be the downfall of BA.

[Glamgirl]

Firstly, the sentences I quoted are not from Bassa. They're from a crew member.

My issue isn't with democracy. My issue is with the way it's written. It makes it sound like that if you're in the minority you have no options.

I know "Wixspedia" isn't always the most reliable source of information, but here goes anyway:

Even though there is no specific, universally accepted definition of 'democracy', there are two principles that any definition of democracy includes, equality and freedom.These principles are reflected by all citizens being equal before the law, and having equal access to power. A third common principle, though less measurable, is that all citizens are promised certain legitimized freedoms and liberties, which are generally protected by a constitution.
There are several varieties of democracy, some of which provide better representation and more freedoms for their citizens than others. However, if any democracy is not carefully legislated to avoid an uneven distribution of political power with balances, such as the separation of powers, then a branch of the system of rule could accumulate power and become harmful to the democracy itself.
The "majority rule" is often described as a characteristic feature of democracy, but without responsible government or constitutional protections of individual liberties from democratic power it is possible for dissenting individuals to be oppressed by the "tyranny of the majority". An essential process in representative democracies is competitive elections, that are fair both substantively and procedurally. Furthermore, freedom of political expression, freedom of speech and freedom of the press are essential so that citizens are informed and able to vote in their personal interests.

Make of it what you like.

Gg

[SlideBustle]

Hmm, I CAN see what you guys are saying, but if a strike is called I would be very reluctant to strike just because the majority of voters voted yes. Many people are BLINDLY voting yes - they think that it will ''send a message'' to Willie Walsh and that he will back down. I think if he was going to, he probably would have by now!!

Have you seen a recent BASSA publication.... I won't post the exact as wouldn't want to break any rules BUT... it's talking about December 14th will be the day that will shape our working life. If you vote yes we will find out whether BA has offered any change, or prospect of change to their position. If not then strike dates will be announced. It then goes on to say if you vote No then december 14th will be the last meeting of it's kind and the end of the union - ''your union will have been defeated and our strength to represent you with it.'' Represent whom?? Oh I know! Never was I consulted on any of their proposals or how I wanted negotiations to go!!

[Slickster]

My ears are flapping, every time I go to work, and occasionally, I chuck in a question, but keep my own counsel.

The last trip was laughable, on the bus. One of the CC didn't know what to do, so wasn't going to vote. None of them knew what the ballot was about. I flatter myself, but I genuinely believe I'm far better informed about the reason for this dispute, and the ramifications of a strike, if it does happen.

One of the crew (the one who couldn't make his mind up, because he couldn't be bothered to avail himself to the facts) said he would strike if he had a lousy roster, but not if he had a decent trip. Truly pathetic - my teeth were grinding.

I do hope WW calls their bluff, and lets them strike. I wouldn't even bother cancelling services - from what I see and hear, very few have the balls to walk out (and it won't be the BASSA leadership), and if they do, they won't even know why they're doing it. Good riddance; I don't want stupid people working for my company.

Anyone who votes "no" clearly won't strike (it's just the way of things), and many who have voted "yes", think that's all they need to do, and are praying for days off/leave/splintered pancreas to avoid the need to walk. Well, I have news for you "yes" voters; your bravado and BS won't work this time. We've all had enough of it.

[52049er]

And given all that I truly feel for those of you caught in this dilemma. A union differs from a democracy in that membership is optional. The reason I am a member of my Union (Association?) is that I happen to agree with its aims, methods and philosophy.

My association is interested in my opinion, asks for my preferences and is open, honest and mature in its dealings with me. As a result I give it in return the level of support I discussed in my last post. However, I don't have a problem with people going against democracy if there is an obvious justification.

After all (forgive the glib comparison but there is an Association that enjoys using inappropriate images from WW2) Hitler was democratically elected and I dont think anyone would criticise a rebel against that particular democratic regime.

[SlideBustle]

Slickster that is unbelievable (oh well actually it's not) that someone would strike only if they had a rubbish roster!! I mean I respect everyones decision - whether they vote Yes or No but Omg! that to use that reason to strike is foolish!

[Slickster]

Yes, it is unbelievable, but the kind of rubbish I hear spouted around all the time. Of course he wouldn't strike; he struck me as someone who could barely make it into work on time, let alone strike. He couldn't even make his mind up over a ballot paper, in the comfort of his own home.

Which is why I hope the bluff is called.

[HiFlyer14]

Right for the record, I am in the Union have voted NO, have now resigned from the Union and will DEFINiTELY be coming into work on strike days.

Democracy? Really?

Where was the democracy asking ALL members if they accepted any of the THREE BA proposals?
Where was the democracy asking ALL members if they approved of the BASSA proposal (pay cut etc.)?
Where was the democracy asking ALL members which parts of either proposal they accept?
Where was the democracy asking ALL members which parts of either proposal they reject?
Where was the democracy or representation of the members when BASSA walked out of a meeting when BA wanted to show a slideshow?
Where's the democracy when the Union publish propoganda flyers with personal attacks on management rather than publishing the facts of the issue?
Where is the democracy when anyone who posts an "alternative" view on either crewforum or BASSA forum is shot down in flames?
Where is the democracy when anyone who posts an "alternative" view on either crewforum or BASSA forum is BANNED from the forum?
Where's the democracy when some cabin crew say "I'll bring this company down before I accept..."

We are all looking for democracy in this Union but there isn't any.

We work for BA too, yet this Union seems intent on sinking it. Some of us have the guts, the intelligence and the ability to fight that. So please don't well tell me that due to democracy I have to support the YES voters that have been led like lambs to the slaughter because they haven't bothered to read both sides of the argument.

If they want to lose their jobs and their livelihoods, then that's their problem. I have to keep a roof over my family's head. So don't you dare throw the democracy card at me for doing so.

I HAVE VOTED NO AND I WILL COME TO WORK. IT IS MY RIGHT UNDER UK EMPLOYMENT LAW TO DO SO.

Oh just wanted to add - where's the democracy in sending out ballot forms to approx 1000+ people who won't even be employed by the company when the time for IA comes??

[Human Factor]

What that poster is basically saying is that those who have voted No should (in BASSA's view) still strike if the overall vote is Yes.

Entirely agree, hence the term "Union" - meaning "as one". IMHO, there are three correct courses of action:

Vote "Yes" - strike if there is a "Yes" vote, as you acknowledge you will by your vote.

Vote "No" - strike if there is a "Yes" vote, as you acknowledge that you are a member of a "Union" (remember) and democracy rules.

Vote "No" - don't strike and resign from the union if there is a majority "Yes" vote. If you remain a member, by defying the democratic majority, you are undermining the point of the "Union" (there's that word again).

... and the secret fourth option. Don't vote at all and go with the majority. If you don't vote, you cannot morally do anything else.

Not often I agree with BASSA (and controversial, I know) but this post describes the moral thing to do. Ah, now I see the problem....

[Human Factor]

There are obviously many CC who are not union members, and therefore had no vote, and should be supported to the full extent of the law to go to work free of threats or intimidation if that is their wish.

Those CC who are not union members will not have been balloted and are therefore ineligible to take part in a strike. They have no choice but to come to work.

[Slickster]

I forgot to add, that on the bus, I had to inform them that they wouldn't get paid if they went on strike, but added that they would get their £30 per day, from Unite.

Lambs to the slaughter. If they can't be bothered to inform themselves...Perhaps too much reliance on BASSA, and not enough independent thought.

It always pays to check things out for yourself, whoever you are, and whatever you do; it's one of the reasons BALPA is so effective these days.