British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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CFC asked:
How do you KNOW this? Its contrary to what has recently been issued by UNITE?
Perhaps read post no.3999, BF has openly said BA are willing to talk:
Quote: Why won’t you negotiate with the union?
I want to negotiate and reach an agreement with Unite on the rest of my plan, including changes to the worldwide disruption agreement and the offer of a new monthly travel payment. I cannot implement changes to contractual pay, hours or leave arrangements without agreement, and I don’t want to. As I’ve already said, crew complements were introduced after nine months of consultation, and that’s now in the hands of the court.
Talks can restart at any time. Despite lots of invitations since then, Unite still hasn’t agreed a date when it will meet us again.
And before you say it, this cannot possibly be untrue CFC, otherwise BF would be in a lot of trouble when it came to the impending court case for issuing a release to BA cabin crew with barefaced lies in, wouldn't he?
How do you KNOW this? Its contrary to what has recently been issued by UNITE?
Perhaps read post no.3999, BF has openly said BA are willing to talk:
Quote: Why won’t you negotiate with the union?
I want to negotiate and reach an agreement with Unite on the rest of my plan, including changes to the worldwide disruption agreement and the offer of a new monthly travel payment. I cannot implement changes to contractual pay, hours or leave arrangements without agreement, and I don’t want to. As I’ve already said, crew complements were introduced after nine months of consultation, and that’s now in the hands of the court.
Talks can restart at any time. Despite lots of invitations since then, Unite still hasn’t agreed a date when it will meet us again.
And before you say it, this cannot possibly be untrue CFC, otherwise BF would be in a lot of trouble when it came to the impending court case for issuing a release to BA cabin crew with barefaced lies in, wouldn't he?
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CFC,
Yes, I know that's the agreement. However, when there's major disruption on the network (in this instance snow), surely the main priority should be to get the network back up and running asap? In such scenarios it's in everyone's best interest to co-operate and work together. Why did the unions say a big fat NO to alleviate that time? Wouldn't it have made more sense if they said, "ok, we'll operate home after minimum (legal) rest, however we want our crew members to have an additional MBT" or suchlike?
In regards to ostracising, it's not just me. There are plenty of cases of such behaviour and also behaviour that smells of bullying. The union doesn't like it when people think for themselves and ask difficult questions. I'll give you an example, that a heck of a lot of members think they can be "fined" by the union for going against their "commands". The union has never said that this isn't true. They like that people believes this, as they get more "co-operation" from it.
As has been mentioned here before, the Captain is in charge of the aircraft, and, if you know your JPM, is in charge of discretion. However, there have been plenty of times where unions (and particularly Bassa) have refused. What happened to common sense? Considering discretion is included in the JPM, it can be used.
Gg
With regard to the two local nights on an inbound long range service, well that is the agreement that both parties come to, Whats the point of having agreements if they are regularly broken?
In regards to ostracising, it's not just me. There are plenty of cases of such behaviour and also behaviour that smells of bullying. The union doesn't like it when people think for themselves and ask difficult questions. I'll give you an example, that a heck of a lot of members think they can be "fined" by the union for going against their "commands". The union has never said that this isn't true. They like that people believes this, as they get more "co-operation" from it.
As has been mentioned here before, the Captain is in charge of the aircraft, and, if you know your JPM, is in charge of discretion. However, there have been plenty of times where unions (and particularly Bassa) have refused. What happened to common sense? Considering discretion is included in the JPM, it can be used.
Gg
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If you have to do it without consultation with the crew then what do you expect? And why was there no consultation with the crew...........?
Consultation - it takes two.
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Dear Moo,
What you are reading and copying here is BF talking about talks on the Disruption Agreement and New Fleet. What the Unions want to talk about is imposition.
Its his usual play on wordrs.
Sadly for BF, he has lost all credibility with CC as we just cannot trust him anymore and having recently talked to a CC mgr feelings are the same from some on that side of the fence.
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What you are reading and copying here is BF talking about talks on the Disruption Agreement and New Fleet. What the Unions want to talk about is imposition.
Its his usual play on wordrs.
Sadly for BF, he has lost all credibility with CC as we just cannot trust him anymore and having recently talked to a CC mgr feelings are the same from some on that side of the fence.
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CFC,
Firstly, the new service should be done to what the standards say, so no "100 different ways". That doesn't mean I agree with what the standards say, but it's part of the job to adhere to it. If it doesn't work, report it back to the company with suggestions what would actually make it work. Whether you believe it or not, management do actually listen when you feed back stuff to them.
Re consultation about the new service, I can see it now:
BF: Dear union reps, could you please come to meetings to discuss the new service? We'd like your input.
UR (union reps):
off.... 
Gg
There you have it in a nutshell. As with the 2nd CW meal service, no inclusion from our CC reps and this service is being done a 100 different ways and is a total mess for our premium pax.
Consultation - it takes two.
Consultation - it takes two.
Firstly, the new service should be done to what the standards say, so no "100 different ways". That doesn't mean I agree with what the standards say, but it's part of the job to adhere to it. If it doesn't work, report it back to the company with suggestions what would actually make it work. Whether you believe it or not, management do actually listen when you feed back stuff to them.
Re consultation about the new service, I can see it now:
BF: Dear union reps, could you please come to meetings to discuss the new service? We'd like your input.
UR (union reps):
off.... Gg
Last edited by Glamgirl; 3rd Dec 2009 at 18:32. Reason: typo
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CFC,
........but BA & BASSA have talked for 9 months - far exceeding the original deadline. Eventually to keep the company afloat BA simply HAVE to impose the cost savings. What other option is left? MORE talking?? How much exactly?? ANOTHER 9 months?? The company LITERALLY cannot afford to let this drag out, especially when BASSA seem unable to come up with alternative proposals that save the required amount.
I fail to see what more talking will achieve. The company needs to stem the outflow of cash & it needs to do it NOW! (Hence the original deadline)
You may not like imposition, but that's what BASSA/UNITE have driven BA to do - you cannot question BA's resolve to make the cost savings plan palatable to both sides, it's all very well documented and much discussed here.
........but BA & BASSA have talked for 9 months - far exceeding the original deadline. Eventually to keep the company afloat BA simply HAVE to impose the cost savings. What other option is left? MORE talking?? How much exactly?? ANOTHER 9 months?? The company LITERALLY cannot afford to let this drag out, especially when BASSA seem unable to come up with alternative proposals that save the required amount.
I fail to see what more talking will achieve. The company needs to stem the outflow of cash & it needs to do it NOW! (Hence the original deadline)
You may not like imposition, but that's what BASSA/UNITE have driven BA to do - you cannot question BA's resolve to make the cost savings plan palatable to both sides, it's all very well documented and much discussed here.
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Dear Gg,
Errrr...the disruption agreement normally kicks in with snow...sometimes fog...thats the whole point of why the agreement first come into place. If you are referring to the snow disruption earlier this year, then the Unions did try and assist in getting the operation back to normal asap - I know as a flight of mine was involved, but the responses from the company just made the Unions dig their heels in and stick to WHAT WAS PREVIOUSLY AGREED TO BY BOTH UNIONS AND BA.
If you feel bullied there are more than enough rules/laws to protect you - why didn't you do something about it? As for crew thinking they will be fined - really, that stopped nearly 21 years ago - how long have they been flying?
"Plenty of times" .... give examples please.
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Errrr...the disruption agreement normally kicks in with snow...sometimes fog...thats the whole point of why the agreement first come into place. If you are referring to the snow disruption earlier this year, then the Unions did try and assist in getting the operation back to normal asap - I know as a flight of mine was involved, but the responses from the company just made the Unions dig their heels in and stick to WHAT WAS PREVIOUSLY AGREED TO BY BOTH UNIONS AND BA.
In regards to ostracising, it's not just me. There are plenty of cases of such behaviour and also behaviour that smells of bullying. The union doesn't like it when people think for themselves and ask difficult questions. I'll give you an example, that a heck of a lot of members think they can be "fined" by the union for going against their "commands". The union has never said that this isn't true. They like that people believes this, as they get more "co-operation" from it.
As has been mentioned here before, the Captain is in charge of the aircraft, and, if you know your JPM, is in charge of discretion. However, there have been plenty of times where unions (and particularly Bassa) have refused. What happened to common sense? Considering discretion is included in the JPM, it can be used.
VOTE YES - YOU KNOW IT IS THE ONLY CHOICE
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Re consultation about the new service, I can see it now:
BF: Dear union reps, could you please come to meetings to discuss the new service? We'd like your input.
UR (union reps): off....
BF: Dear union reps, could you please come to meetings to discuss the new service? We'd like your input.
UR (union reps): off....
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So hardly an honest reflection of events from Bassa.
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Dear Moo,
the crux of your post is the word 'amount'.
Apart from the amount changing a couple of times, CC feel a bit aggrieved that our contribution to the overall savings on a percentage level far outweighs all other departments within BA.
If WW had gone to the all BA staff and suggested say a 10% drop in pay for a period of time, this would have been much fairer and accepted by all of us. However you must agree that efforts by the CC Unions to find these savings is a step in the right direction, albeit figures offered were not deemed to be correct by BA.
the crux of your post is the word 'amount'.
Apart from the amount changing a couple of times, CC feel a bit aggrieved that our contribution to the overall savings on a percentage level far outweighs all other departments within BA.
If WW had gone to the all BA staff and suggested say a 10% drop in pay for a period of time, this would have been much fairer and accepted by all of us. However you must agree that efforts by the CC Unions to find these savings is a step in the right direction, albeit figures offered were not deemed to be correct by BA.
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Midman,
You are definitely right - that was a sorry period for CC reps. What did emerge from those 3 days is now a joint effort by Bassa and Amicus. Ironically it took a dispute to bring the CC Unions back together, the same as what tore them apart.
BA should welcome this and get round a table ASAP.
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You are definitely right - that was a sorry period for CC reps. What did emerge from those 3 days is now a joint effort by Bassa and Amicus. Ironically it took a dispute to bring the CC Unions back together, the same as what tore them apart.
BA should welcome this and get round a table ASAP.
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CFC,
My last post about consultation on new service was my attempt at injecting a bit of humour. Obviously we have a different sense of humour. I can live with that.
Can you clarify for me please what the company said that made the union dig their heels in during the snow disruption this year?
You want examples of where the union has refused discretion? What would you like? Date, time and flight number? I'm unable to give that to you due to confidentiality.
I did something about it, actually. I'm not interested in going into details here, as that could jeopardise my safety as far as I'm concerned. The reason (as I said in previous post) people still believe they can be fined is because the union hasn't told them it's untrue.
Gg
My last post about consultation on new service was my attempt at injecting a bit of humour. Obviously we have a different sense of humour. I can live with that.
Can you clarify for me please what the company said that made the union dig their heels in during the snow disruption this year?
You want examples of where the union has refused discretion? What would you like? Date, time and flight number? I'm unable to give that to you due to confidentiality.
If you feel bullied there are more than enough rules/laws to protect you - why didn't you do something about it? As for crew thinking they will be fined - really, that stopped nearly 21 years ago - how long have they been flying?
Gg
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CFC
No disrespect intended but have you actually read any of the last 200 pages?
Changed because Bassa missed the deadline. As already explained numerous times
CC are playing catch up with the rest of the airline. Every department has had changes to terms and conditions and working practices in the last five years to bring us in line with the rest of aviation world EXCEPT IFCE, which I'm sure you'll understand makes the rest of us 'feel a bit aggrieved'.
No disrespect intended but have you actually read any of the last 200 pages?
Originally Posted by CFC
Apart from the amount changing a couple of times
Originally Posted by CFC
If WW had gone to the all BA staff and suggested say a 10% drop in pay for a period of time, this would have been much fairer and accepted by all of us
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Hi again Gg,
Humour ....really? Who are you kidding.
With regard to disruption, no manager in BA could guarantee anything - extra MBT/Monies/etc, in fact it was quite pathetic but I did feel for those BA mgrs put under the spotlight without any support from above. The crew reaction was 'if they cannot be bothered either can we'.
Scratching backs works in both directions.
Confidentiality....mmmmmm, very handy that word isn't it?
So what you are saying is that crew are ringing up about being fined (of course this has happened in the last few weeks since the ballot ???) and the Unions are denying they will not be fined. Are you sure?? Are you really sure about this???
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Humour ....really? Who are you kidding.
With regard to disruption, no manager in BA could guarantee anything - extra MBT/Monies/etc, in fact it was quite pathetic but I did feel for those BA mgrs put under the spotlight without any support from above. The crew reaction was 'if they cannot be bothered either can we'.
Scratching backs works in both directions.
Confidentiality....mmmmmm, very handy that word isn't it?
So what you are saying is that crew are ringing up about being fined (of course this has happened in the last few weeks since the ballot ???) and the Unions are denying they will not be fined. Are you sure?? Are you really sure about this???
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CFC,
In regard to the union fines, this has been going on for years, not just recently. It has been mentioned here before as well.
Confidentiality is important. Did you really think I was going to publish such information on a public board? Also, SS confirms what I was saying. I know this probably isn't enough information for you, but it's all you'll get, I'm afraid.
Gg
In regard to the union fines, this has been going on for years, not just recently. It has been mentioned here before as well.
Confidentiality is important. Did you really think I was going to publish such information on a public board? Also, SS confirms what I was saying. I know this probably isn't enough information for you, but it's all you'll get, I'm afraid.
Gg
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Perry Oaks,
Yes I've been regularly involved over the last 200 pages. Thank you.
Can I ask you if you read any of the last 200 pages? You are incorrect. The original figure of £82M (Pls correct me if I'm wrong on these figures) moved to £126M after the first quarters' results. This figure was then changed to a saving of HCE1700 - and all before the June 30th deadline.
So I ask you to check your thoughts/timelines/figures.
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Yes I've been regularly involved over the last 200 pages. Thank you.
Changed because Bassa missed the deadline. As already explained numerous times
So I ask you to check your thoughts/timelines/figures.
VOTE YES - ITS THE ONLY WAY FORWARD
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CFC
A bit aggrieved that you need to save more money than other departments? What on earth for? Perhaps if you had bothered to look outside of the world of IFCE you might have noticed that every single department in BA has done continuous savings!
If your beloved BASSA had kept up with reality for the past few years they could have avoided you, their members, from such a deep fall as you are now facing. Bring with you a parachute!
Apart from the amount changing a couple of times, CC feel a bit aggrieved that our contribution to the overall savings on a percentage level far outweighs all other departments within BA.
If your beloved BASSA had kept up with reality for the past few years they could have avoided you, their members, from such a deep fall as you are now facing. Bring with you a parachute!
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Dear Gg,
You are as clear as mud!
Fines going on for years, just what are you referring to exactly? Are you saying crew are contacting their Union to be told they will be fined if they cross the picket line?
This soon came to a stop after the introduction of a second CC Union along with new legislation thanks to Maggie Thatcher. Crew would simply swap or not be a member at all. In fact in the old days, not only were you fined £50, your name would be printed in the next Union newsletter! Oh how we have moved 'forward' since then.
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You are as clear as mud!
Fines going on for years, just what are you referring to exactly? Are you saying crew are contacting their Union to be told they will be fined if they cross the picket line?
This soon came to a stop after the introduction of a second CC Union along with new legislation thanks to Maggie Thatcher. Crew would simply swap or not be a member at all. In fact in the old days, not only were you fined £50, your name would be printed in the next Union newsletter! Oh how we have moved 'forward' since then.
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Hi winstonsmith,
Out of interest what department do you work in and what 'continuous savings ' are you referring to.
Errr...for the umpteenth time I do not belong to Bassa. Please note.
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A bit aggrieved that you need to save more money than other departments? What on earth for? Perhaps if you had bothered to look outside of the world of IFCE you might have noticed that every single department in BA has done continuous savings!
If your beloved BASSA
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