British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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doishquattroserche
Before I post remember that BA and Easy/Ryanair are non comparable airlines even though the popular press often do so.
Also this is NOT a pilot discussion thread although many who post here, like myself are pilots.
Your arguments for pay, as have been discussed on the CF and the BASSA forum fall down against market rate. Now I know that 'market rate' is the 'buzzword' at the moment but, if you take a quick trawl of the internet, you will see why your 'flat rate' figures don't add up.
Comparable airlines:
BA Capt Top LH: £144 439 Gross
Lufthansa. Capt Top 217,500 EUR/year gross
Air France Capt Top 11500 to 15000 E per month gross
KLM Capt Top 246,092 (E17,578 x14) Before tax
So, lets just say that BA pays well but not top and often at/below market rate for us already.
Now unfortunately it is a little more difficult to find the figures for the Cabin Crew but, as has been posted here before from the CAA, the rates for BA Cabin Crew are somewhat above the market rate.
Whilst retention of flight crew is a cost saver for airlines, retention of Cabin crew is not such a major concern. Experienced cabin crew are important when serving a product but, in the downturn, they are an asset that can be trimmed.
Hence the reason for departmental cuts at differing levels.
Before I post remember that BA and Easy/Ryanair are non comparable airlines even though the popular press often do so.
Also this is NOT a pilot discussion thread although many who post here, like myself are pilots.
Your arguments for pay, as have been discussed on the CF and the BASSA forum fall down against market rate. Now I know that 'market rate' is the 'buzzword' at the moment but, if you take a quick trawl of the internet, you will see why your 'flat rate' figures don't add up.
Comparable airlines:
BA Capt Top LH: £144 439 Gross
Lufthansa. Capt Top 217,500 EUR/year gross
Air France Capt Top 11500 to 15000 E per month gross
KLM Capt Top 246,092 (E17,578 x14) Before tax
So, lets just say that BA pays well but not top and often at/below market rate for us already.
Now unfortunately it is a little more difficult to find the figures for the Cabin Crew but, as has been posted here before from the CAA, the rates for BA Cabin Crew are somewhat above the market rate.
Whilst retention of flight crew is a cost saver for airlines, retention of Cabin crew is not such a major concern. Experienced cabin crew are important when serving a product but, in the downturn, they are an asset that can be trimmed.
Hence the reason for departmental cuts at differing levels.
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Just wanted to mention that news from Castle Donnington is as yet sparse, but it's clear that quite a lot of CC from Mainline, Regional and Baby won't be kept on. Figures in total are hard to gauge but anything less than a 25% reduction in costs would not be worth the effort imho.
So, before standing up against The Company consider this. Is it better to be in paid employment, however unhappy you are, and able to look for another position or to go on strike - risk loosing your job and then have to seek employment without a job and in competition with many of your former colleagues?
I direct this question at individuals on the basis that in my career I've gone many an extra mile for my employer, only for it to count not a jot when hard times arrive.
In other words - your duty is firstly to you and your family.
Typing whilst wearing flak jacket, tin hat, toetector boots and safety goggles.
Sir George Cayley
So, before standing up against The Company consider this. Is it better to be in paid employment, however unhappy you are, and able to look for another position or to go on strike - risk loosing your job and then have to seek employment without a job and in competition with many of your former colleagues?
I direct this question at individuals on the basis that in my career I've gone many an extra mile for my employer, only for it to count not a jot when hard times arrive.
In other words - your duty is firstly to you and your family.
Typing whilst wearing flak jacket, tin hat, toetector boots and safety goggles.
Sir George Cayley
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Typing whilst wearing flak jacket, tin hat, toetector boots and safety goggles.
Apart from the sparse news from Donington, what point were you putting over as I'm genuinely not sure
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As I've heard many a passenger say in the past, ... "I have a question"...
From reading this thread the only thing consistent with BASSA and the die hard supporters is that they want a strike and to put 40,000+ peoples livelihoods in jeopardy.
I haven't yet seen a coherent argument or a sustainable proposal come from them to date.
Please enlighten me because as far as I can see, the crew are buying into a rhetoric that is void of any substance, with arguments that can be picked apart with only a cursory inspection.
I'm deeply supportive of the cabin crew and the fantastic job they do every day but I'm really worried they they are being led down a road from which there is no return.
So please, can someone explain to me, given that 'no change' is not an option, that "new" crewing levels have been tried and tested at LGW, and that BA are offering a guarantee of earnings through the monthly travel payment, what is it that BASSA are fighting?
Many thanks and good luck.
From reading this thread the only thing consistent with BASSA and the die hard supporters is that they want a strike and to put 40,000+ peoples livelihoods in jeopardy.
I haven't yet seen a coherent argument or a sustainable proposal come from them to date.
Please enlighten me because as far as I can see, the crew are buying into a rhetoric that is void of any substance, with arguments that can be picked apart with only a cursory inspection.
I'm deeply supportive of the cabin crew and the fantastic job they do every day but I'm really worried they they are being led down a road from which there is no return.
So please, can someone explain to me, given that 'no change' is not an option, that "new" crewing levels have been tried and tested at LGW, and that BA are offering a guarantee of earnings through the monthly travel payment, what is it that BASSA are fighting?
Many thanks and good luck.
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3500 people attend a meeting and the union is dying
First time both unions joined forces in over twenty years and the union is dying.
And as for glam girl starting a new union good on her. I dont know where she will find a suitable venue for her branch meeting.
Prehaps Esher Race course mind you pretty expensive if only twenty people show up lol.
First time both unions joined forces in over twenty years and the union is dying.
And as for glam girl starting a new union good on her. I dont know where she will find a suitable venue for her branch meeting.
Prehaps Esher Race course mind you pretty expensive if only twenty people show up lol.
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wobble t p,I think we are in agreement as far as both sides of the flightdeck door are earning more that they would be ,without unions and IF they were exposed to the harsh realities of current market forces .However ,i was trying to make the point that you guys and girls have a skill which is still in demmand worldwide ( a friend of a flight crew friend has just got a command with qatar on a 777,i think) but us cabin crew are unable to command anything like what we earn outside if the distorted world of BA long haul,perhaps the reason for the desperation amongst some. Do BA longhaul cabin crew really think we are worth twice what a casualty nurse gets? I thought not,defending the indefensible .
Guys,vote sensibly or call the union and let them know your views ,get round that table!
Guys,vote sensibly or call the union and let them know your views ,get round that table!
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How many crew at the meeting actually agree with BASSA though .What people say in public in this company can actaully be quite the reverse in reality. Especially when jobs and futures are at risk .As i've said lets all sit back and enjoy the show and see how BASSA digs it'self out of this one .A certain phrase springs to mind .OVER AND OUT .
Last edited by Weather Map; 8th Nov 2009 at 21:13.
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To be honest, what will be will be. I hope I don't sound defeatist or fatalistic in my assessment but when I read the sheer vitriol that spills off the pages in CrewForum and those anonymous rangers who come over here to shout "BASSA 100%", I doubt any attempt to have a calm measured debate will ever be successful.
Some poor soul over there has mooted a difference of opinion about the need for change in BA, and in the space of 2 and a half hours has been metaphorically set about with baseball bats over 8 pages by the self-appointed cognoscenti. Not once does anyone seem to feel that the best way to deal with this perceived dissention is to educate. No, it's just screaming about waking up and smelling the coffee or getting ones head out of the sand. It's no wonder nothing progresses. It's tiresome, sad and belittles the individuals involved in the witch hunting. The oft repeated claim that it's merely because the posters are passionate doesn't wash when stacked up against basic social etiquette. The mere mention of dissent is nearly always met with a suggestion that the poster cannot be cabin crew/ must be a management stooge/ is a pilot posting on their partner's login. It seems beyond their comprehension that their might be those in their ranks who simply do not see it their way. My other half has met a great deal of unpleasantness thanks to this narrow-minded approach by some of her colleagues.
To expect, therefore, there to be much in the way of enlightened debate over here from those visitors is (barring the very notable exceptions whom we're all aware of), I suspect to wish for too much.
Hence I believe that no manner of discourse, negotiation or debate will resolve this as the hotheads are hell bent on proving that it's their airline and they say how it's run. It'll be strike ballot, strike and, finally, who's got the deepest pockets and the best legal team.
To say that it just simply didn't have to be this way understates the matter by a number of magnitudes.
MrB
PS - A small personal plea. Please, please stop using the image of the men raising the flag at Iwo Jima as the basis for your campaign image. Your two scenarios are utterly incomparable and you demean the memory of some extraordinarily brave people by drawing the visual analogy, be it intentionally or otherwise.
Some poor soul over there has mooted a difference of opinion about the need for change in BA, and in the space of 2 and a half hours has been metaphorically set about with baseball bats over 8 pages by the self-appointed cognoscenti. Not once does anyone seem to feel that the best way to deal with this perceived dissention is to educate. No, it's just screaming about waking up and smelling the coffee or getting ones head out of the sand. It's no wonder nothing progresses. It's tiresome, sad and belittles the individuals involved in the witch hunting. The oft repeated claim that it's merely because the posters are passionate doesn't wash when stacked up against basic social etiquette. The mere mention of dissent is nearly always met with a suggestion that the poster cannot be cabin crew/ must be a management stooge/ is a pilot posting on their partner's login. It seems beyond their comprehension that their might be those in their ranks who simply do not see it their way. My other half has met a great deal of unpleasantness thanks to this narrow-minded approach by some of her colleagues.
To expect, therefore, there to be much in the way of enlightened debate over here from those visitors is (barring the very notable exceptions whom we're all aware of), I suspect to wish for too much.
Hence I believe that no manner of discourse, negotiation or debate will resolve this as the hotheads are hell bent on proving that it's their airline and they say how it's run. It'll be strike ballot, strike and, finally, who's got the deepest pockets and the best legal team.
To say that it just simply didn't have to be this way understates the matter by a number of magnitudes.
MrB
PS - A small personal plea. Please, please stop using the image of the men raising the flag at Iwo Jima as the basis for your campaign image. Your two scenarios are utterly incomparable and you demean the memory of some extraordinarily brave people by drawing the visual analogy, be it intentionally or otherwise.
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Midman,
Good analysis of the pros and cons of the hourly rate.
Perhaps my comments were a little harsh, but peoples ignorance and unwillingness to even think about the issue is so frustrating. (And it's going to cost them dearly in income tax very soon ... )
If you ask an average crew member if they would ever consider an hourly rate, you will get something along the lines of;
"No, never, absolutley not, it would be £2/hr and we'd lose 1000's of pounds.
"So, would you take an hourly rate if it was £50/hr?"
"Yes. Errm. No. Because it wouldn't be £50, it would be £2, I don't trust them"
The real nub of matter. Crew don't trust BA to stick to an hourly rate because they don't trust Bassa to be able to negotiate it properly and nail down the small print (adjusted for volume, inflation, etc) If Bassa could negotiate this now, crew could capture allowances at a record high, and increase their pensionable pay. If you're going to be taxed on your allowances, you may as well get a boost to your pension, especially in BARP.
However, this won't happen, and crew will be let down again. Not by BA this time. They won't care. Less basic pay is less NI payments for them to make, and they won't care when the taxman comes after you.
Good analysis of the pros and cons of the hourly rate.
Perhaps my comments were a little harsh, but peoples ignorance and unwillingness to even think about the issue is so frustrating. (And it's going to cost them dearly in income tax very soon ... )
If you ask an average crew member if they would ever consider an hourly rate, you will get something along the lines of;
"No, never, absolutley not, it would be £2/hr and we'd lose 1000's of pounds.
"So, would you take an hourly rate if it was £50/hr?"
"Yes. Errm. No. Because it wouldn't be £50, it would be £2, I don't trust them"
The real nub of matter. Crew don't trust BA to stick to an hourly rate because they don't trust Bassa to be able to negotiate it properly and nail down the small print (adjusted for volume, inflation, etc) If Bassa could negotiate this now, crew could capture allowances at a record high, and increase their pensionable pay. If you're going to be taxed on your allowances, you may as well get a boost to your pension, especially in BARP.
However, this won't happen, and crew will be let down again. Not by BA this time. They won't care. Less basic pay is less NI payments for them to make, and they won't care when the taxman comes after you.
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Haven`t Unite/Bassa agreed to work with the new crewing levels until the 1st Feb when it proceeds to a full trial.If that is the case then BA will pursue an injunction against Unite if there is a vote in favour of striking, on the grounds that there was an agreement to operate with those crewing levels till Feb.I think trying to have 2 bites of the cherry won`t wash in court as there was nothing new on the issued ballot paper that wasn`t brought up in Bassa`s initial injunction request.And that was rejected.
Come Feb when a predictable 3rd quarter loss is announced along with a 2.66 billion pension deficit and furthur job cuts and savings, then events will have overtaken any importance of the trial.We shall have to wait and see, -there are too may `unknown unknowns`at the moment.
Come Feb when a predictable 3rd quarter loss is announced along with a 2.66 billion pension deficit and furthur job cuts and savings, then events will have overtaken any importance of the trial.We shall have to wait and see, -there are too may `unknown unknowns`at the moment.
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Lets be under no illusions here - the reason we are in the current situation is 20 odd yrs of weak and inept management on the part of BA. The unholy alliance of BASSA/IFCE that has wrought untold havoc over the yrs has only flourished because no-one has had the cajones to tackle this festering sore. So WW gets my support on this issue. I don't blame the CC(on the lucrative old contracts) for being somewhat miffed at the prospect of seeing their renumeration slashed - but c'mon, they've been overpaid and underworked for so long now. What rankles with me is that instead of saying,' it's a fair cop, we've had it TOO good for TOO long, we're greatful that we've had the good times for so long, now it's time for a reality check...' they (BASSA)are throwing a hissy fit and making out that the company's proposals are some sort of crime of the century - get real guys for gawds sake. BASSA is run by the senior CSDs/Pursers for the benefit of the very same minorty group. They don't give a FF for the new contract CC or for the LGW CC. What also rankles is the apparent indifference of some CC to the fate of the company and therefore of the many other employees in other working groups within the company! Some of the crew live in a 'bubble world' which is so detached from reality it's quite laughable....................
PS yes, i'm a pilot with BA and would like to be employed 2yrs down the road
PS yes, i'm a pilot with BA and would like to be employed 2yrs down the road
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BASSA court injunction application, win/lose or draw.
There seems to be confusion by some posters on the result of the court injunction application.
To plagiarise a Monty Python sketch
An actor being interviewed about a play he is starring in, was it hard to do?
The reply, I know all the words, the hardest part is getting them in the right order.
Quite apt I think.
To plagiarise a Monty Python sketch
An actor being interviewed about a play he is starring in, was it hard to do?
The reply, I know all the words, the hardest part is getting them in the right order.
Quite apt I think.
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It could be a pay rise!
Firstly I am a pilot so treat accordingly...
As we stand BA are imposing a pay freeze, fewer crew on our aircraft and will introduce New Fleet. They have offered a fixed payment to replace your box b2b payments etc. We all know that the prize routes & therefore payments often go to the same people so a fixed sum would mean the that everyone gets an equal bite of the cherry.
BA have also said that the costs of IA will be recovered from the group who incurred it. Avoiding discussion of whose fault it is BA will of course take this money from crew. Given the huge costs of IA that can only be disastrous to your pay. With BMI making large numbers of crew redundant, unknown numbers of temps waiting in the wings & more in the holding pool i suggest now is not the time for your battle. Keep what you have & save the battle for when BA have an alternative. Too many of you are my friends to let bassa destroy your careers.
As we stand BA are imposing a pay freeze, fewer crew on our aircraft and will introduce New Fleet. They have offered a fixed payment to replace your box b2b payments etc. We all know that the prize routes & therefore payments often go to the same people so a fixed sum would mean the that everyone gets an equal bite of the cherry.
BA have also said that the costs of IA will be recovered from the group who incurred it. Avoiding discussion of whose fault it is BA will of course take this money from crew. Given the huge costs of IA that can only be disastrous to your pay. With BMI making large numbers of crew redundant, unknown numbers of temps waiting in the wings & more in the holding pool i suggest now is not the time for your battle. Keep what you have & save the battle for when BA have an alternative. Too many of you are my friends to let bassa destroy your careers.
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Condescending twaddle
I don't blame the CC(on the lucrative old contracts) for being somewhat miffed at the prospect of seeing their renumeration slashed
Please don't assume that we work for the sheer pleasure of it and understand that, for many of us, we need to pay the bills at the end of the month; we don't shop in Bond Street, attend Ascot and Wimbledon, live in large detached houses, etc. I don't have a problem with working harder, I can see the writing on the wall for this industry but I think my family deserve that I keep the roof over their heads while they finish their state school education. In training we are familiar with the concept that to ASS U ME is dangerous.
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Ottergirl - I am exactly like you - I don't really give a hoot about BA or BASSA, my only objective in all of this is to keep paying the bills and to keep my job. The offer on the table for us is primarily one crew member off plus a monthly fixed payment. If the monthly payment is negotiated effectively, how would you NOT be able to pay your mortgage, bills, with this deal?
On the other hand a strike could spell disaster for BA which would mean we were all down the dole queue and then you definitely WOULD NOT be able to pay your bills. Even if BA do survive a strike, as stated before BA will ADD the cost of industrial action (millions I assume
) to the CC bill, so again we may not be able to pay the bills if we take a heavy hit.
Can I also ask how you were intending to pay your bills with the BASSA proposal - a 2.6% paycut, a pay and increment freeze for 2 years, etc??
If we both just want to continue supporting our families we have only one option to VOTE NO FOR INDUSTRIAL ACTION. Any other option WILL effect your bill paying capability, and therefore your family's livelihood. Are you really prepared for that?
On the other hand a strike could spell disaster for BA which would mean we were all down the dole queue and then you definitely WOULD NOT be able to pay your bills. Even if BA do survive a strike, as stated before BA will ADD the cost of industrial action (millions I assume
) to the CC bill, so again we may not be able to pay the bills if we take a heavy hit.Can I also ask how you were intending to pay your bills with the BASSA proposal - a 2.6% paycut, a pay and increment freeze for 2 years, etc??
If we both just want to continue supporting our families we have only one option to VOTE NO FOR INDUSTRIAL ACTION. Any other option WILL effect your bill paying capability, and therefore your family's livelihood. Are you really prepared for that?
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Ottergirl
Apart from the pay freeze de-valuing your pay against any inflation what is in the proposals to reduce your salary?
Sorry to hear that your pay has reduced during the last few years, why is that?
Regards Strimmerdriver
Apart from the pay freeze de-valuing your pay against any inflation what is in the proposals to reduce your salary?
Sorry to hear that your pay has reduced during the last few years, why is that?
Regards Strimmerdriver