British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
Why shouldn't the job be career choice in much the same way as pilots view their job as a career ....
And again, falling in to the old trap of comparing apples with oranges - pilots have a completely different sort of training, with a professional license, regular medicals, yaddah, yaddah ..... don't go there, the Mods don't like it.
.... OK it costs less to train cabin crew, however that shouldn't devalue it as chosen career for those who want to do the job.
Last edited by MrBernoulli; 3rd Dec 2009 at 12:03. Reason: Spolling mistooks
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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flyeruk69,
The individual should have pay and conditions at market rate (or thereabouts) for their job. I have as flight crew and I would suggest that pretty much everyone else in BA has as well, with one group being a glaring exception.
Just explain again why you feel your pay and conditions should be so significantly different to the market rate for your job when "market rate" is good enough for the rest of the company....
... the individual is not owed a living of their own choosing!
Just explain again why you feel your pay and conditions should be so significantly different to the market rate for your job when "market rate" is good enough for the rest of the company....
When a company starts being run for the benefit and convenience of it's employees rather than shareholders or paying customers, it's asking for trouble.
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OzzyO, it's a work in progress. Want to join?
I just wanted to let you all know that LGW cc has improved in all areas in November (re customer satisfaction). LHR cc are down a few points on both fleets unfortunately.
Gg
I just wanted to let you all know that LGW cc has improved in all areas in November (re customer satisfaction). LHR cc are down a few points on both fleets unfortunately.
Gg
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I'll let you work that out from the previous 190 or so pages.
Suffice to say that BASSA seem entirely content for those market rate terms and conditions to exist at LGW.
Suffice to say that BASSA seem entirely content for those market rate terms and conditions to exist at LGW.
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The problem is that many crew feel that if they accept this imposition and the removal of one of our agreements what will be next ?
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My beef as I've said before is the total disregard to collective agreements signed and agreed by both BA and the TU's. Just because these agreements don't suit the current management they shouldn't be disregarded.
The agreements were drawn up in a period where the company could afford everything it forged with the union.
You are abundantly correct in that they should be renegotiated if anything, as opposed to being "torn up", but I think it's apparent from the information on this thread and the hissy fits coming from BASSA that they are not willing to negotiate - so BA are having to do it the hard way. Unfortunately the members that BASSA represent will learn this to their cost if the ballot swings to IA and BASSA lead them out of a job.
Which is why I think it's important to consider all of the information available in this discussion (and why I added the information about the Green taxes that are going to take even more money away from BA in the coming years).
I for one would love to see BASSA sit down at the table and listen properly to what BA have to say, but it would seem the current leadership see this as a threat to their own personal circumstances and will not do it.
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Sorry to self-quote, but on the 27th November I posted this:
Hi A Lurker, good to see you back - I know you're willing to engage on the detail..
Have you had more luck than me ascertaining EU airline rates of pay for Cabin Crew? Any info from Unite?
As far as pilots go, BA pilots are paid about the same as Virgin Pilots per hour flown (for example). And (guessing here) about 30% more than LoCo/Charter pilots. (willing to be corrected, but don't think I'm far off..)
In the past I've spent a lot of time & effort trying to ascertain other (non-UK) arline rates of pay for Cabin Crew, and drawn a complete blank.
Some of the US carriers payscales seem to indicate a similar "top of scale" rate as BA, in terms of gross pay, but no real indication of average pay, or unit pay (approx cost "per hour flown" to the company).
For the EU airlines, I've had no luck at all.
My only feeling is that surely Unite know these details (at least for EU airlines).
If Iberia/AF/KLM/Lufthansa rates are the same as BA (or more), why aren't Unite shouting these numbers from the rooftops? (Lufthansa's average cost per unit flown is X! BA crew are only paid X - 10%!!!, for example)
So what do these airlines pay? Even if, as W2P points out, cost of living etc would be different - at least knowing the raw figures would be a start.
Without the basic data I don't see how we can really make any progress?
Perhaps some of the BASSA members who post here have some personal knowledge, or would be willing to ask their reps some questions?
Some of the US carriers payscales seem to indicate a similar "top of scale" rate as BA, in terms of gross pay, but no real indication of average pay, or unit pay (approx cost "per hour flown" to the company).
For the EU airlines, I've had no luck at all.
My only feeling is that surely Unite know these details (at least for EU airlines).
If Iberia/AF/KLM/Lufthansa rates are the same as BA (or more), why aren't Unite shouting these numbers from the rooftops? (Lufthansa's average cost per unit flown is X! BA crew are only paid X - 10%!!!, for example)
So what do these airlines pay? Even if, as W2P points out, cost of living etc would be different - at least knowing the raw figures would be a start.
Without the basic data I don't see how we can really make any progress?
Perhaps some of the BASSA members who post here have some personal knowledge, or would be willing to ask their reps some questions?
Have you had more luck than me ascertaining EU airline rates of pay for Cabin Crew? Any info from Unite?
As far as pilots go, BA pilots are paid about the same as Virgin Pilots per hour flown (for example). And (guessing here) about 30% more than LoCo/Charter pilots. (willing to be corrected, but don't think I'm far off..)
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What I really don't get is why the union is still refusing to meet with BA, purely because BA won't remove the imposition. Yes, I know the union doesn't agree with it, but to be able to move forward, surely it's at least common sense to meet with the management to hear what they have to say? It doesn't mean the union has to agree to anything (as I don't expect them to from experience...), but at least listen, and come up with a plan of action.
The union won't tell any of the members what Plan A, B or C is. Yes, I know they've said there will be an announcement of strike dates on the 14th, but after the last Sandown meeting can one really trust what they say? I refer to the much hyped (non) deliverance of a ballot from the recently sacked scheduling man. He was sent off from Sandhurst to personally deliver the intent of ballot from the union to BA. He was "called back" due to some reason or another. The members weren't told this asap, it came out several days later.
Trust? Where? Who? When? Why?
Gg
Edited for rather major typo...
The union won't tell any of the members what Plan A, B or C is. Yes, I know they've said there will be an announcement of strike dates on the 14th, but after the last Sandown meeting can one really trust what they say? I refer to the much hyped (non) deliverance of a ballot from the recently sacked scheduling man. He was sent off from Sandhurst to personally deliver the intent of ballot from the union to BA. He was "called back" due to some reason or another. The members weren't told this asap, it came out several days later.
Trust? Where? Who? When? Why?
Gg
Edited for rather major typo...
Last edited by Glamgirl; 3rd Dec 2009 at 14:31.
GG,
By 'Sandhurst', I'm sure you mean Sandown?
And I am surprised that you are surprised at BASSAs refusal to meet BA. BASSA usually demands the pre-conditions it wants to do anything, and due to BA not playing that game, BASSA has painted itself into a corner where it doesn't know how to move, let alone think (as if it really ever has done any of the latter recently .....).
BA are not going to pussy-foot anymore - 'hardball' is the name of the game now. And it is obvious BASSA is not qualified to play! Bad luck to them.
By 'Sandhurst', I'm sure you mean Sandown?
And I am surprised that you are surprised at BASSAs refusal to meet BA. BASSA usually demands the pre-conditions it wants to do anything, and due to BA not playing that game, BASSA has painted itself into a corner where it doesn't know how to move, let alone think (as if it really ever has done any of the latter recently .....).
BA are not going to pussy-foot anymore - 'hardball' is the name of the game now. And it is obvious BASSA is not qualified to play! Bad luck to them.
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MrBernoulli,
Firstsly, thanks for pointing out my typo
. Now corrected.*
I'm not surprised at the unions refusal, I just don't "get" it. I'd like to be a fly on the wall at union HQ these days to hear what they have to say about this whole shambles.
Gg
*or maybe Sandhurst might be a more appropriate place for such a meeting?
Firstsly, thanks for pointing out my typo
. Now corrected.*I'm not surprised at the unions refusal, I just don't "get" it. I'd like to be a fly on the wall at union HQ these days to hear what they have to say about this whole shambles.
Gg
*or maybe Sandhurst might be a more appropriate place for such a meeting?
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I think Sandhurst would be an admirable place for the BASSA clowns to start. They might actually learn something about leadership, and tactics. Probably all a bit late now....
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Originally Posted by A Lurker
I asked a very simple and straightforward question which it seems that you are unable to answer - or so it seems.
Originally Posted by Human Factor
Suffice to say that BASSA seem entirely content for those market rate terms and conditions to exist at LGW.
Wouldn't they?
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Having not mentioned "market rates" ( it's been done to death on here) my point was to say if an individual wants a career as cabin crew it should be available. At no point did I mention what sort of reward for such a career an individual would want or need, which wasn't what I was getting at. Although taking a substantial amount of money away from current employees because of the way they are paid and is viewed by some as "above market rates" is in my view morally wrong as most people live to their means, ( it has to be said BA have not done this). To infer that just because current cabin crew should take a substantial pay cut to meet market rates is unrealistic, new entrant crew is a different matter.
I wonder how many people in any industry would accept up to a 50% pay cut to bring them in line with so called market rates, theoretically would anyone on here accept this ?
As in all industry career's are down to market forces and no business would last long if it thought other wise, my point was really about giving people a choice however long it may take to build a career as cabin crew.
I only compared a pilots career to cabin crew career because they are the only two groups of people who spend most of their working lives in the air. It maybe like comparing apples and oranges but they are both still fruit, apart from that the two jobs are fundamentally different but I believe both have an oportuity for a career path if that's what an individual wants. Nothing to do with being "owed a living" or pay, many many other industries offer career paths so why should this industry be so different.
Regardless of the law when balloting and the reasons that caused the ballot, part of the high feelings and passion are about the future and what could happen in the future, rightly or wrongly cabin crew think that if BA can disregard one part of the agreement then they will / could disregard others over time.
We could debate the naivety, lawlessness and futility of using a ballot partly to stop what could happen in the future until "pontius" becomes a "pilate" again, it wouldn't be the first time a group of unionised work force has done such a thing, as long as there is a tangible reason for a ballot there really is nothing that can be done to stop this in law.
I wonder how many people in any industry would accept up to a 50% pay cut to bring them in line with so called market rates, theoretically would anyone on here accept this ?
As in all industry career's are down to market forces and no business would last long if it thought other wise, my point was really about giving people a choice however long it may take to build a career as cabin crew.
I only compared a pilots career to cabin crew career because they are the only two groups of people who spend most of their working lives in the air. It maybe like comparing apples and oranges but they are both still fruit, apart from that the two jobs are fundamentally different but I believe both have an oportuity for a career path if that's what an individual wants. Nothing to do with being "owed a living" or pay, many many other industries offer career paths so why should this industry be so different.
Regardless of the law when balloting and the reasons that caused the ballot, part of the high feelings and passion are about the future and what could happen in the future, rightly or wrongly cabin crew think that if BA can disregard one part of the agreement then they will / could disregard others over time.
We could debate the naivety, lawlessness and futility of using a ballot partly to stop what could happen in the future until "pontius" becomes a "pilate" again, it wouldn't be the first time a group of unionised work force has done such a thing, as long as there is a tangible reason for a ballot there really is nothing that can be done to stop this in law.
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Just curious but isnt BRITISH AIRWAYS, BA et al part of a protected trademark and brand.
Therefore shouldnt BA move to prevent BASSA using BA (British Airways) as part of their union Identity. The general public will easily asume that they form part of the BA hierarchy and not an independant Union.
With their beligerence it could be argued that they are damaging the brand and to the unitiiated appear to be an official entity of BA.
It may also stop the confusion in the bassa leaderships minds that they are an operational department of BA the airline.
Not as far fetched as you think. There is an association in the Middle east that shares the name of the Company its members work for. Many people perceive them to be one and the same. Note: They operate with agreement ffor theuse of the name.
Therefore shouldnt BA move to prevent BASSA using BA (British Airways) as part of their union Identity. The general public will easily asume that they form part of the BA hierarchy and not an independant Union.
With their beligerence it could be argued that they are damaging the brand and to the unitiiated appear to be an official entity of BA.
It may also stop the confusion in the bassa leaderships minds that they are an operational department of BA the airline.
Not as far fetched as you think. There is an association in the Middle east that shares the name of the Company its members work for. Many people perceive them to be one and the same. Note: They operate with agreement ffor theuse of the name.