British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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For A Lurker:
UK Airline Statistics: 2008 - annual | Data | Economic Regulation
Look under Table 1 14 Airline Personnel Costs
UK Airline Statistics: 2008 - annual | Data | Economic Regulation
Look under Table 1 14 Airline Personnel Costs
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Top Bunk many thanks......
So what we are saying here is that the 'market rate' for BA Cabin Crew is not being compared against other national 'flag carriers' but against the following airlines......
BMI GROUP
BRITISH GLOBAL
EASYJET
FLYGLOBESPAN
GLOBAL SUPPLY SYSTEMS
JET2.COM
MONARCH AIRLINES
THOMAS COOK AIRLINES
THOMSON AIRWAYS
VIRGIN ATLANTIC AIRWAYS
XL AIRWAYS UK
Surely you cannot be comparing BA against the charter airlines who recruit six month temporary Cabin Crew for the summer rush?
Come on guys - if we are comparing a 'market rate' surely it has to be against other flag carriers - or are you saying that BA is now bunched in with one of the above?
BMI GROUP
BRITISH GLOBAL
EASYJET
FLYGLOBESPAN
GLOBAL SUPPLY SYSTEMS
JET2.COM
MONARCH AIRLINES
THOMAS COOK AIRLINES
THOMSON AIRWAYS
VIRGIN ATLANTIC AIRWAYS
XL AIRWAYS UK
Surely you cannot be comparing BA against the charter airlines who recruit six month temporary Cabin Crew for the summer rush?
Come on guys - if we are comparing a 'market rate' surely it has to be against other flag carriers - or are you saying that BA is now bunched in with one of the above?
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More unbelievable twaddle from the UNITEBA talking heads:
What a shame these berks don't realise that Management have EVERY right to do ANYTHING when the company is bleeding cash from every pore. They've been told to do it by the owners of the company.
Why on earth do these people expect to be treated like a charitable cause?
Read the full blithering nonsense at:
. COST SAVING TALKS PAGE
Oh, and the peach of a closing paragraph:
There's a very simple solution to this:
VOTE NO AND QUIT BASSA!
"If an agreement is reached with staff, then it is agreed by both sides; it is binding, it always has been and should continue to be that way. Indeed the company introduced “the staff charter” back in the early 90s which said just that. We don’t suppose there is any manager left who remembers the “staff charter” but there are plenty of workers who do.
Management doesn’t have the right to “rip these things up” just because it does not suit them any longer or they weren’t around when the deal was struck. In the same way that we as employees, don’t have the right to pick and choose which bits we like and which bits we will honour, or as citizens we can’t opt to break whatever law does not suit us."
Management doesn’t have the right to “rip these things up” just because it does not suit them any longer or they weren’t around when the deal was struck. In the same way that we as employees, don’t have the right to pick and choose which bits we like and which bits we will honour, or as citizens we can’t opt to break whatever law does not suit us."
Why on earth do these people expect to be treated like a charitable cause?
Read the full blithering nonsense at:
. COST SAVING TALKS PAGE
Oh, and the peach of a closing paragraph:
We didn’t ask for this dispute, we don’t wish to inconvenience our customers nor do we want them flying on other airlines, but if takes a dispute to get this management to listen and to really care about the future direction of this company, then that is exactly what will happen.
VOTE NO AND QUIT BASSA!
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A Lurker you raise a fair point there. Gulf Air CC salaries are in the region of about 1K a month for an experienced western (and by that I mean the more developed European nationalities, as opposed to, say, Romanian) expat. The offset for this is that accommodation is provided and there is no income tax.
I would imagine their CC from the far east and subcontinent probably earn significantly less than that.
I dread to think how much BA could reduce their employment costs if they hired staff from Thai and Jet Airways, both of whom (and I speak from experience) offer fantastic in-flight service at all times.
IIRC you can't even apply for Thai airways unless you are a university graduate.
I hope for your sake Wicked Willie doesn't read that or it might give him ideas....
I would imagine their CC from the far east and subcontinent probably earn significantly less than that.
I dread to think how much BA could reduce their employment costs if they hired staff from Thai and Jet Airways, both of whom (and I speak from experience) offer fantastic in-flight service at all times.
IIRC you can't even apply for Thai airways unless you are a university graduate.
I hope for your sake Wicked Willie doesn't read that or it might give him ideas....
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Desertia
Do you really believe that Unite are so stupid as not to know the meaning and scope of industrial agreements. Of course they know, but what they are hoping is that their poor benighted membership don't know and that they can thereby convince them that BA is a cruel, heartless employer. It's called "propaganda".
I do wonder if the Unite membership know that between 2005 and 2008, Unite is reported as having contributed £11,000,000 to the Labour party, making them the largest contributor of all. Unite accounts for 41% of labour party funds. A fine use of membership fees when you consider the damage done to the airlines through passenger taxes, not to mention Mr Brown's raid on the pension fund!
Do you really believe that Unite are so stupid as not to know the meaning and scope of industrial agreements. Of course they know, but what they are hoping is that their poor benighted membership don't know and that they can thereby convince them that BA is a cruel, heartless employer. It's called "propaganda".
I do wonder if the Unite membership know that between 2005 and 2008, Unite is reported as having contributed £11,000,000 to the Labour party, making them the largest contributor of all. Unite accounts for 41% of labour party funds. A fine use of membership fees when you consider the damage done to the airlines through passenger taxes, not to mention Mr Brown's raid on the pension fund!
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A Lurker you raise a fair point there
YOUR market is UK based airlines. What other UK airline would you like included in that list?
A Lurker is wanting to up the market rate by only including the top international airlines worldwide. Would he/she also be happy to have the CC salaries of the 'flag' carriers for nations like Kenya, Kazakhstan, Libya, Cuba, etc... included for the market rate calculation?
Selective use of statistics is a bit naughty.
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Hautemude #3739
I do wonder if the Unite membership know that between 2005 and 2008, Unite is reported as having contributed £11,000,000 to the Labour party, making them the largest contributor of all.
So the simple answer to your question is that the Unite membership is given the information you quote, and every opportunity not to contribute to the Labour Party should they not want to. If workers in the aviation industry do not feel they're getting good value from paying into a Union political fund, they have two options: opt out of paying the political levy; or organise and get their Union to lobby within (using your example) the Labour Party to change the party/government policy on passenger tax. Given, as you say, Unite is the largest contributor to the Labour Party, then its views probably carry influence.
I'm not what Union political donations have to do with the current BA-Unite dispute though.
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I think you'll find most other parts of the company have pay and productivity on a par with comparable operators. The flight crew have been benchmarked for a good while now! Have a scan around the other UK long haul operators to look for equivalence. It's not just the number in the bottom right of the wage slip, it also depends on the productivity you offer the company for that amount (flexibility, hours of work and quality of work all have a value).
As for other parts of the operation I'm fairly sure the packages as a whole that most people work to have become very competitive over the last few years. Engineering, and most other departments have been under heavy threat of outsourcing and have seen the need to modify their positions and negotiate their way to the best possible balance for the company. For most this was part of the T5 move and changes to working practices/agreements. Only one group has been unyielding and unless the productivity can be seen to be worth the pay the threat for that group remains and it is in the guise of imposition and newfleet.
Welcome to the world where understanding your position in the business and negotiating it's best worth to both the employee and the employer is going on around you and has been for quite some time!
As for other parts of the operation I'm fairly sure the packages as a whole that most people work to have become very competitive over the last few years. Engineering, and most other departments have been under heavy threat of outsourcing and have seen the need to modify their positions and negotiate their way to the best possible balance for the company. For most this was part of the T5 move and changes to working practices/agreements. Only one group has been unyielding and unless the productivity can be seen to be worth the pay the threat for that group remains and it is in the guise of imposition and newfleet.
Welcome to the world where understanding your position in the business and negotiating it's best worth to both the employee and the employer is going on around you and has been for quite some time!
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Yup.
Nope.
If you are defining a market rate, you have to define what that market actually is. You are lucky in the fact that you have (I assume) the right to live and work in the European Union, so you could arguably stretch to including the overall cabin crew remuneration package for all full service airlines in the EU. But if you wish to calculate the market rate based on all EU countries, you cannot leave out airlines like Tarom, CSA, etc...
If you are now going to compare how BA pilots, ground staff, engineers or managers are compensated compared to the market rate, just make sure you define what market you are comparing the packages with, for better or worse.
'There's 3 kinds of lies in this world: lies, Damn Lies and Statistics!'
Best wishes to all and I sincerely hope that this dispute doesn't put a damper on anyones Christmas.
HO, HO, HO.
Nope.
If you are defining a market rate, you have to define what that market actually is. You are lucky in the fact that you have (I assume) the right to live and work in the European Union, so you could arguably stretch to including the overall cabin crew remuneration package for all full service airlines in the EU. But if you wish to calculate the market rate based on all EU countries, you cannot leave out airlines like Tarom, CSA, etc...
If you are now going to compare how BA pilots, ground staff, engineers or managers are compensated compared to the market rate, just make sure you define what market you are comparing the packages with, for better or worse.
'There's 3 kinds of lies in this world: lies, Damn Lies and Statistics!'
Best wishes to all and I sincerely hope that this dispute doesn't put a damper on anyones Christmas.
HO, HO, HO.
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A quick example of how to screw up statistics to fit your benchmarking profile (whichever way you want to swing it):
Airline X pays pilots £100,000 a year but Airline Y pays them £85,000 pounds a year thus Airline X pilots must be overpaid!
Until you look at the flying hours that Airline X pilots put in in comparison to Airline Y. Where Airline X pilots fly the full 900 hours a year and Airline Y only 750.
Airline X gets an 'hour' for £111 and Airline Y gets an hour for £113. So the 'broadbrush' for any benchmark be it Flight Crew, Cabin crew, engineers, ground staff etc. must be looked at with regard to productivity. Add to that that all and I mean all 'extra' payments, days off, time at work, time airborne etc. etc. etc. MUST be taken into account to provide an accurate benchmark.
The other difficulty is that when benchmarking one must look at whether the workforce under scrutiny can be easily replaced by personnel from the local work force. Difficult in some cases where qualifications are difficult to come by and easy in some where qualification is quick and local.
Sadly where many say 'experience' in regard to their job when transferring it within the market place many new employers say 'intransigent' in regard to the difficulty of re-training.
The local cost of living also alters the demographics when benchmarking, for example low paid crew/flight crew in Brasil may well have a far higher standard of living within their country than what is enjoyed in a very expensive UK.
So, when you say you should only be judged against UK airlines, not true. You will be judged against how easily you can be replaced, what the 'newbie' will work for, how long it takes to train and what the local taxes, cost of living and living standards are. All within Europe! Sadly, at the moment, Europe is, for the Brit, an expensive place to live thus benchmarking could be dangerous as the foreign airlines won't appear so well remunerated as one thinks.
Airline X pays pilots £100,000 a year but Airline Y pays them £85,000 pounds a year thus Airline X pilots must be overpaid!
Until you look at the flying hours that Airline X pilots put in in comparison to Airline Y. Where Airline X pilots fly the full 900 hours a year and Airline Y only 750.
Airline X gets an 'hour' for £111 and Airline Y gets an hour for £113. So the 'broadbrush' for any benchmark be it Flight Crew, Cabin crew, engineers, ground staff etc. must be looked at with regard to productivity. Add to that that all and I mean all 'extra' payments, days off, time at work, time airborne etc. etc. etc. MUST be taken into account to provide an accurate benchmark.
The other difficulty is that when benchmarking one must look at whether the workforce under scrutiny can be easily replaced by personnel from the local work force. Difficult in some cases where qualifications are difficult to come by and easy in some where qualification is quick and local.
Sadly where many say 'experience' in regard to their job when transferring it within the market place many new employers say 'intransigent' in regard to the difficulty of re-training.
The local cost of living also alters the demographics when benchmarking, for example low paid crew/flight crew in Brasil may well have a far higher standard of living within their country than what is enjoyed in a very expensive UK.
So, when you say you should only be judged against UK airlines, not true. You will be judged against how easily you can be replaced, what the 'newbie' will work for, how long it takes to train and what the local taxes, cost of living and living standards are. All within Europe! Sadly, at the moment, Europe is, for the Brit, an expensive place to live thus benchmarking could be dangerous as the foreign airlines won't appear so well remunerated as one thinks.
Last edited by wobble2plank; 27th Nov 2009 at 09:54.
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Hi Flyer's words:
What fine sentiments so eloquently expressed & the sentiments which from my long years as a BA customer I assumed were held by ALL employees. Unfortunately from this thread it is apparent that not all employees feel the same. Never mind I'm sure that the noisy minority will be drowned out by the likes of HF & his trusty & loyal colleagues. I'm sure that A-L & the like will disagree.
We all joined this company because we are people people. We love looking after people; it's in our blood. Many of us have come from other airlines that either no longer exist (Air2000, Excel, BMed, etc) or others that are struggling big time (BMI, Virgin, etc.). Why did we leave those airlines? Because we love BA. We all (without exception) wanted to work for the largest and best British airline. It is what every crew member within Britain (and even across the globe) aspires too.
We have not forgotten that. This Union are completely negative when we are by nature positive people. This union keep telling us not to serve customers (hot towels in WT+, CW 2nd meal service), to cancel flights, to go on strike, etc. etc. Well, we want to serve customers, we want to operate flights, We don't want to strike. We came here to be the best, and we can all still remember the pride we felt the first time we stepped into the uniform.
We have not forgotten that. This Union are completely negative when we are by nature positive people. This union keep telling us not to serve customers (hot towels in WT+, CW 2nd meal service), to cancel flights, to go on strike, etc. etc. Well, we want to serve customers, we want to operate flights, We don't want to strike. We came here to be the best, and we can all still remember the pride we felt the first time we stepped into the uniform.
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Wobble2plank
Some interesting assumptions on the methodology of benchmarking a 'market rate' against EU countries - especially when for example, we look at a carrier like Iberia, where it is relatively cheap to live in Madrid or Barcelona compared to the south east of England, there is huge unemployment in Spain, so an abundant pool of 'newbies' who would love to work - yet Iberia crew are still paid more than BA Cabin Crew.
I suppose it just shows that statistics can be worked either way doesn't it.
The top 50 most expensive cities to live in 2009
Base City: New York, US (=100)
SOURCE: Mercer
2009 2008
1 2 TOKYO JAPAN 143.7
2 11 OSAKA JAPAN 119.2
3 1 MOSCOW RUSSIA 115.4
4 8 GENEVA SWITZERLAND 109.2
5 6 HONG KONG HONG KONG 108.7
6 9 ZURICH SWITZERLAND 105.2
7 7 COPENHAGEN DENMARK 105
8 22 NEW YORK CITY US 100
9 20 BEIJING CHINA 99.6
10 13 SINGAPORE SINGAPORE 98
11 10 MILAN ITALY 96.9
12 24 SHANGHAI CHINA 95.2
13 12 PARIS FRANCE 95.1
14 4 OSLO NORWAY 94.2
15 89 CARACAS VENEZUELA 93.3
16 3 LONDON UK 92.7
17 14 TEL AVIV ISRAEL 91.9
18 16 ROME ITALY 91.2
19 21 HELSINKI FINLAND 90.5
20 52 DUBAI UAE 90.1
21 19 VIENNA AUSTRIA 89.3
22 61 SHENZHEN CHINA 89
23 55 LOS ANGELES US 87.6
23 70 GUANGZHOU CHINA 87.6
25 16 DUBLIN IRELAND 87.4
26 65 ABU DHABI UAE 86.7
27 34 DOUALA CAMEROUN 86.1
28 25 ATHENS GREECE 85.9
29 25 AMSTERDAM NETHERLANDS 85.7
30 45 BRATISLAVA SLOVAKIA 84.8
31 89 WHITE PLAINS US 84.7
32 30 LAGOS NIGERIA 84.6
33 74 TEHRAN IRAN 84.1
34 51 ABIDJAN IVORY COAST 82.5
34 41 DAKAR SENEGAL 82.5
34 78 SAN FRANCISCO US 82.5
37 28 MADRID SPAIN 82.1
38 43 LUXEMBOURG LUXEMBOURG 82.1
38 31 BARCELONA SPAIN 82.1
40 57 ALGIERS ALGERIA 81.7
41 77 HONOLULU US 81.6
41 39 BRUSSELS BELGIUM 81.6
41 80 BEIRUT LEBANON 81.6
44 44 ALMATY KAZAKHSTAN 81.5
45 75 MIAMI US 81.4
46 18 ST PETERSBOURG RUSSIA 81.3
47 37 MUNICH GERMANY 81.2
48 40 FRANKFURT GERMANY 80.9
49 38 BERLIN GERMANY 80.8
50 84 CHICAGO US 80.7
I suppose it just shows that statistics can be worked either way doesn't it.
The top 50 most expensive cities to live in 2009
Base City: New York, US (=100)
SOURCE: Mercer
2009 2008
1 2 TOKYO JAPAN 143.7
2 11 OSAKA JAPAN 119.2
3 1 MOSCOW RUSSIA 115.4
4 8 GENEVA SWITZERLAND 109.2
5 6 HONG KONG HONG KONG 108.7
6 9 ZURICH SWITZERLAND 105.2
7 7 COPENHAGEN DENMARK 105
8 22 NEW YORK CITY US 100
9 20 BEIJING CHINA 99.6
10 13 SINGAPORE SINGAPORE 98
11 10 MILAN ITALY 96.9
12 24 SHANGHAI CHINA 95.2
13 12 PARIS FRANCE 95.1
14 4 OSLO NORWAY 94.2
15 89 CARACAS VENEZUELA 93.3
16 3 LONDON UK 92.7
17 14 TEL AVIV ISRAEL 91.9
18 16 ROME ITALY 91.2
19 21 HELSINKI FINLAND 90.5
20 52 DUBAI UAE 90.1
21 19 VIENNA AUSTRIA 89.3
22 61 SHENZHEN CHINA 89
23 55 LOS ANGELES US 87.6
23 70 GUANGZHOU CHINA 87.6
25 16 DUBLIN IRELAND 87.4
26 65 ABU DHABI UAE 86.7
27 34 DOUALA CAMEROUN 86.1
28 25 ATHENS GREECE 85.9
29 25 AMSTERDAM NETHERLANDS 85.7
30 45 BRATISLAVA SLOVAKIA 84.8
31 89 WHITE PLAINS US 84.7
32 30 LAGOS NIGERIA 84.6
33 74 TEHRAN IRAN 84.1
34 51 ABIDJAN IVORY COAST 82.5
34 41 DAKAR SENEGAL 82.5
34 78 SAN FRANCISCO US 82.5
37 28 MADRID SPAIN 82.1
38 43 LUXEMBOURG LUXEMBOURG 82.1
38 31 BARCELONA SPAIN 82.1
40 57 ALGIERS ALGERIA 81.7
41 77 HONOLULU US 81.6
41 39 BRUSSELS BELGIUM 81.6
41 80 BEIRUT LEBANON 81.6
44 44 ALMATY KAZAKHSTAN 81.5
45 75 MIAMI US 81.4
46 18 ST PETERSBOURG RUSSIA 81.3
47 37 MUNICH GERMANY 81.2
48 40 FRANKFURT GERMANY 80.9
49 38 BERLIN GERMANY 80.8
50 84 CHICAGO US 80.7
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A Lurker,
That is exactly what I was trying to point out. There will always be one or two flying above the average until the company sees fit to do something about it.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some fairly radical changes coming to Iberia if the proposed merger goes ahead.
Sadly you cannot benchmark against one company but only against an average of all equivalent companies and then against an average within that company not taking into account only the high earners.
When a Union attempts benchmarking it will come out with a totally different figure than a Company/Employer benchmarking! As you have just proven.
Also, how many of our erstwhile cabin crew actually LIVE in London? The Airline doesn't force people to in fact it stipulates a 'recommendation' of 2 hours. Lots of cheaper places to live within that distance.
Also doesn't the chief mud whomper of BASSA live in LA? Not bad for Cabin Crew commute!
That is exactly what I was trying to point out. There will always be one or two flying above the average until the company sees fit to do something about it.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some fairly radical changes coming to Iberia if the proposed merger goes ahead.
Sadly you cannot benchmark against one company but only against an average of all equivalent companies and then against an average within that company not taking into account only the high earners.
When a Union attempts benchmarking it will come out with a totally different figure than a Company/Employer benchmarking! As you have just proven.
Also, how many of our erstwhile cabin crew actually LIVE in London? The Airline doesn't force people to in fact it stipulates a 'recommendation' of 2 hours. Lots of cheaper places to live within that distance.
Also doesn't the chief mud whomper of BASSA live in LA? Not bad for Cabin Crew commute!
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Wobble2plank
Yes I totally agree with you - you can do an awful lot with figures and numbers - and as we have both pointed out these can be manipulated to suit the argument
Right Im off out - have a good day
Right Im off out - have a good day
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Legal Eagle are you out there?
I am trying to fully understand the request BA made, (High Court, 5th Nov) for £67-£100 million in damages. (Times article 6th Nov)
What is the background to the request?
Was it granted or did Unite's lawyers have it declined by the judge?
Is this the sort of figure BA would be looking for as compensation?
How is it arrived at?
Who is responsible for paying it should BA win and the figure accepted?
What does this request to set damages mean at this point in the proceedings?
If not granted at this stage can they request it again at trial?
Sorry!
Any ideas?
What is the background to the request?
Was it granted or did Unite's lawyers have it declined by the judge?
Is this the sort of figure BA would be looking for as compensation?
How is it arrived at?
Who is responsible for paying it should BA win and the figure accepted?
What does this request to set damages mean at this point in the proceedings?
If not granted at this stage can they request it again at trial?
Sorry!
Any ideas?
Clarified
I'm sure that is the sort of sum BA would claim from Unite, should any prolonged Strike subsequently to be found illegal by a Court.
Last edited by cessnapete; 27th Nov 2009 at 12:18.
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wobble2plank
Also doesn't the chief mud whomper of BASSA live in LA? Not bad for Cabin Crew commute!
How will she manage without staff travel for a year? Wait - I forgot - she only works half-time. Maybe she'll manage it after all!
I would personally see that BA throws her out the door.