MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.
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SLF here. So if QANTAS international flights run at a huge loss, what private company can let that go on, without the cost cutting suggested by AJ ? How do wage increases and keeping the CC here and bringing maintenance back here then help turn a profit ? What is better, some job or no job ? Help me out here.
I appreciate the situation though. I have enough dough to be able to afford to fly QF when possible because I have met enough pilots and LAMEs. The other punters have voted with their wallets.
I appreciate the situation though. I have enough dough to be able to afford to fly QF when possible because I have met enough pilots and LAMEs. The other punters have voted with their wallets.
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aussiepax - The operative word you used ws 'if'.
On a different note, a great (in my opinion) article here:
Tie me bloody Kangaroo down, Joyce | Article | The Punch
On a different note, a great (in my opinion) article here:
Tie me bloody Kangaroo down, Joyce | Article | The Punch
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So if QANTAS international flights run at a huge loss
Is Mr Joyce telling the truth? Very few would actually know. As we have seen with the "he said, she said" between Joyce/Albanese/Gillard about the grounding notification, the truth appears to be a very ambiguous.
This is first and foremost a propaganda war, and as the insiders on these boards know, the truth is the first casualty. Executives are well aware that creating a perception in the mind of the public is the most important thing, even if it later found to be an "untruth". The original "meme" sticks, as you have so perfectly demonstrated.
Does this change your perspective? Look beyond the spin to see the agenda.
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I'm still curious to see if any laws have been broken on the preplanning of the grounding , there's seems to be some misinformation on this topic
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Some observations I've made.
On the two recent occasions Mr Joyce was directly asked if QF Mainline was subsidising J*, he refused to deny that this was the case. It was a yes/no answer but instead he talked of faking the moon landing and that the concept of Mainline paying J* bills etc was a crazy idea.
I am aware of GD doing the same thing at a Staff presentation a number of years ago.
There is an interesting post on a previous thread that deals with this use of language to not actually tell a lie, but to not give a straight answer.
So we still don't know.
N
On the two recent occasions Mr Joyce was directly asked if QF Mainline was subsidising J*, he refused to deny that this was the case. It was a yes/no answer but instead he talked of faking the moon landing and that the concept of Mainline paying J* bills etc was a crazy idea.
I am aware of GD doing the same thing at a Staff presentation a number of years ago.
There is an interesting post on a previous thread that deals with this use of language to not actually tell a lie, but to not give a straight answer.
So we still don't know.
N
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Indeed noip:
Post #662 is well worth a rehash
Post #662 is well worth a rehash
had a very interesting email from a colleague who is closely associated with Irish Business. It is his opinion that we are all labouring under our Australian beliefs and teachings. AJ isn’t attached to, or constrained by, these beliefs, teaching or our history. He is not an Australian and had been brought up in a Country where intellectual betrayal, or more specifically, mental reservation, casuistry and equivocation are accepted practice.
As he (my colleague) explained, the Collins Dictionary defines mental reservation as....’a tacit withholding of full assent or an unexpressed qualification made when one is taking an oath, making a statement, etc.’ Casuistry is ....’ reasoning that is specious, misleading, or oversubtle’.
The doctrines of mental reservation and casuistry were developed in the middle ages and are most often associated with the Jesuits. Mental reservation involves truths "expressed partly in speech and partly in the mind," relying upon the idea that God hears what is in one's mind while human beings hear only what one speaks. Verbally, “I did not steal any sheep on Tuesday”, mentally continuing, “it was on Wednesday”. It is a way of telling lies while being able to claim that you’ve been completely honest. For instance, the Primate of Ireland, Cardinal Desmond Connell, was comfortable with telling journalists that diocesan funds are not used to pay off the victims of clerical abusers, and he was very pleased with the subtlety of his language. He took great satisfaction in explaining that he didn’t say such funds were not used in the past, and if the journalists happened to be hoodwinked by his clever use of language, why that was just their own misfortune for not being as slippery smart as the Cardinal!
In our culture the statement, “Mr. Boyce is not in the office” typically means that Boyce is not taking phone calls right now (or, at least not this particular phone call). The caller understands (or should understand) that this is a polite way of saying, “Boyce is not available to you at this moment, even though he is actually in the office.” No one is really fooled by this expression using ambiguous language; we simply take it for what it is.
President Bill Clinton was educated at the foremost Jesuit training centre, Georgetown University. According to Clinton's biographer David Maraniss, the President owed his formidable skills as a criminal defendant to 'his training in casuistry at Georgetown University'. Casuistry is equivocal to rationalization, “to cause something to seem reasonable, to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct”. We all recall Bill Clinton, a former Rhodes Scholar, insist that he did not have sexual relations with that woman, when most guys in his position would be more than happy to think of what he got up to as just that!
Closer to home there was the Australian Spycatcher affair. Sir Robert Armstrong, now Baron Armstrong, produced the magnificent phrase “economical with the truth”. The world loved the patent absurdity of Armstrong’s phrase, and laughed at it, because we all understood what he meant. Economical with the truth! Every parent knows who took the sweets, or put a football through the window. It was Mister Nobody or maybe a kamikaze.
The question that should be asked of AJ and the QF spin doctors is, ‘Do you have a mental reservation in respect of your statement?’
As he (my colleague) explained, the Collins Dictionary defines mental reservation as....’a tacit withholding of full assent or an unexpressed qualification made when one is taking an oath, making a statement, etc.’ Casuistry is ....’ reasoning that is specious, misleading, or oversubtle’.
The doctrines of mental reservation and casuistry were developed in the middle ages and are most often associated with the Jesuits. Mental reservation involves truths "expressed partly in speech and partly in the mind," relying upon the idea that God hears what is in one's mind while human beings hear only what one speaks. Verbally, “I did not steal any sheep on Tuesday”, mentally continuing, “it was on Wednesday”. It is a way of telling lies while being able to claim that you’ve been completely honest. For instance, the Primate of Ireland, Cardinal Desmond Connell, was comfortable with telling journalists that diocesan funds are not used to pay off the victims of clerical abusers, and he was very pleased with the subtlety of his language. He took great satisfaction in explaining that he didn’t say such funds were not used in the past, and if the journalists happened to be hoodwinked by his clever use of language, why that was just their own misfortune for not being as slippery smart as the Cardinal!
In our culture the statement, “Mr. Boyce is not in the office” typically means that Boyce is not taking phone calls right now (or, at least not this particular phone call). The caller understands (or should understand) that this is a polite way of saying, “Boyce is not available to you at this moment, even though he is actually in the office.” No one is really fooled by this expression using ambiguous language; we simply take it for what it is.
President Bill Clinton was educated at the foremost Jesuit training centre, Georgetown University. According to Clinton's biographer David Maraniss, the President owed his formidable skills as a criminal defendant to 'his training in casuistry at Georgetown University'. Casuistry is equivocal to rationalization, “to cause something to seem reasonable, to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct”. We all recall Bill Clinton, a former Rhodes Scholar, insist that he did not have sexual relations with that woman, when most guys in his position would be more than happy to think of what he got up to as just that!
Closer to home there was the Australian Spycatcher affair. Sir Robert Armstrong, now Baron Armstrong, produced the magnificent phrase “economical with the truth”. The world loved the patent absurdity of Armstrong’s phrase, and laughed at it, because we all understood what he meant. Economical with the truth! Every parent knows who took the sweets, or put a football through the window. It was Mister Nobody or maybe a kamikaze.
The question that should be asked of AJ and the QF spin doctors is, ‘Do you have a mental reservation in respect of your statement?’
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A reckless act of bastardry. Some people, whether by birthright or certificate,will never be Australians and Clifford and Joyce are two such people. The offense is that Clifford has an Order of Australia which is a blight on those who have truly earned one; this should be revoked. And during this selfish indulgence three true Australians are killed and others gravely wounded. Could you ever imagine these pair of ponces ever fighting for Australia? Why have they not been arrested yet? Threatening the government of the day, grounding the National carrier. Would anyone else not be on remand by dawn? The best they should hope for is to be someone’s special person in Pentridge. They just cannot get away with this; there must be some deterrence to Corporate Executives to not behave as Australian law and society demands.
I'm still curious to see if any laws have been broken on the preplanning of the grounding , there's seems to be some misinformation on this topic
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As much as I hate to say it, being a fellow pilot and all that, I'm afraid you've been suckered and dudded!
As pilots we never were very good at this IR stuff, as past history proves!
You are no longer a "legacy airline", accept it and move on and think yourselves fortunate that you've got an excellent job that pays excellent money, a fantastic life style that provides you and your family with every thing you could want in life...so, why did you want more?
Stop being ungrateful ba.....ds and enjoy the fantastic job that you've got!!
The TWU and Tony Sheldon, the LAMEs and that goose Steve Purvenis, or whatever his name is, that purports to represent them, have never been your bedfellows, hate your guts if the truth be known, and think you're Prima Donas'...go and ask them!
Get some balls and do something or, preferably, shut up and appreciate what you've got!!
As pilots we never were very good at this IR stuff, as past history proves!
You are no longer a "legacy airline", accept it and move on and think yourselves fortunate that you've got an excellent job that pays excellent money, a fantastic life style that provides you and your family with every thing you could want in life...so, why did you want more?
Stop being ungrateful ba.....ds and enjoy the fantastic job that you've got!!
The TWU and Tony Sheldon, the LAMEs and that goose Steve Purvenis, or whatever his name is, that purports to represent them, have never been your bedfellows, hate your guts if the truth be known, and think you're Prima Donas'...go and ask them!
Get some balls and do something or, preferably, shut up and appreciate what you've got!!
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Amos,
On the contrary, I think the game has only just reached half-time. The interviews I saw today of the PM and other ministers revealed they each had a white-hot fury raging in them over the actions of QF .
Plenty of twists and turns left to exhaust you on the ride.
N
On the contrary, I think the game has only just reached half-time. The interviews I saw today of the PM and other ministers revealed they each had a white-hot fury raging in them over the actions of QF .
Plenty of twists and turns left to exhaust you on the ride.
N
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Last time I looked it was illegal to take un-notified industrial action and the guilty party would be fined! What of class actions by those who lost during this episode against Clifford, Joyce, Qantas - the salaries would dwindle pretty quickly. Nothing of this ...yet.
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Qantas bullying in the work place
From Reachout Australia's fact sheet regarding bullying in the workplace;
What dies bullying in the workplace look like?
1. Playing mind games, ganging up on you or other psychological harassment.
2. Intimidation (making you feel less important and undervalued).
3. Deliberately changing your work hours or schedule to make it difficult for you.
4. Deliberately holding back information you need for getting your work done properly
Has Qantas being doing points 1 and 2 to the employees involved in the dispute and then their actions on Saturday was basically points 1, 3 and 4 to every Qantas employee?
What dies bullying in the workplace look like?
1. Playing mind games, ganging up on you or other psychological harassment.
2. Intimidation (making you feel less important and undervalued).
3. Deliberately changing your work hours or schedule to make it difficult for you.
4. Deliberately holding back information you need for getting your work done properly
Has Qantas being doing points 1 and 2 to the employees involved in the dispute and then their actions on Saturday was basically points 1, 3 and 4 to every Qantas employee?
DJ737 (post 867),Rutan Around and others: On behalf of the 25% of Australian citizens who were born overseas (including me, much of the QF workforce and John Borghetti of DJ, as well as Alan Joyce), please cut the racism. It does our profession no good at all. I happen to believe that Joyce's policies are wrong. Where he was born is irrelevant and when inserted into the debate, plain counterproductive.
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Oh Please!...give us a break!...we all know what you earn as Qantas pilots!
Please, don't cry poor! And don't give us this "job security" b...s..t!
Keg... your'e a smart kookie...start being smart again, Mate!!
Unless I've misjudged you, and I'm starting to think I have!
Please, don't cry poor! And don't give us this "job security" b...s..t!
Keg... your'e a smart kookie...start being smart again, Mate!!
Unless I've misjudged you, and I'm starting to think I have!
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On the contrary, I think the game has only just reached half-time. The interviews I saw today of the PM and other ministers revealed they each had a white-hot fury raging in them over the actions of QF .
Ohhh I'm scared, now we are really in it, Julia angry, I'm mean what are you saying. Normally a woman scorned would be something to be afraid of, but does she count? This has to have been one of the most useless governments that we have had, and has stuffed almost every thing they have touched, you really think Joyce gives a sh!t what they think. The government are as much pawns in this as everyone else.
Last time I looked it was illegal to take un-notified industrial action and the guilty party would be fined! What of class actions by those who lost during this episode against Clifford, Joyce, Qantas - the salaries would dwindle pretty quickly. Nothing of this ...yet.
Unless one of their greasy lawyers had a bad day or someone got sloppy there is not a snowball chance in hell of laying one on them.
Leigh Sales on 7.30 has just said that for the second day in a row Alan Joyce agreed to be interviewed on the programme and then cancelled with no explanation.
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Straight from the Qantas webpage; apprently they are pretty confident that they will come to a deal and there will be no more industrial action!
Last updated AEDT 5.40pm 31 October 2011.
Latest Flight Information
Qantas can confirm that all domestic and international services have resumed from mid-afternoon on Monday 31 October. We are deeply sorry for the inconvenience and stress our customers have faced over the past days and months. Industrial action is now over, you can again book Qantas flights with confidence.
Some flight delays, cancellations and disruptions are expected as we return our operations to normal and we advise you to visit Flight Status for up to the minute information on specific flights. As always, safety remains our first priority.
We apologise for any inconvenience that this industrial action has caused and we thank you for your understanding and continued support.
Last updated AEDT 5.40pm 31 October 2011.
Latest Flight Information
Qantas can confirm that all domestic and international services have resumed from mid-afternoon on Monday 31 October. We are deeply sorry for the inconvenience and stress our customers have faced over the past days and months. Industrial action is now over, you can again book Qantas flights with confidence.
Some flight delays, cancellations and disruptions are expected as we return our operations to normal and we advise you to visit Flight Status for up to the minute information on specific flights. As always, safety remains our first priority.
We apologise for any inconvenience that this industrial action has caused and we thank you for your understanding and continued support.
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TIMA9X said;
Thanks for the videos, we here all appreciate the work you do making sure we all get to view these stories.
As for 'it's all good'…….that second one needs to be spread like a virus….otherwise it'll be all very, very bad!
Last time we had Darth Dixon…this time lets use a different movie…..
Forget Joyce, he's Saruman….a gullible puppet…..we really need to be free of the puppet-master Lord Sauron and his evil board of Ring-Wraiths……
..and you can guess who Wormtongue is……...
So who's Frodo……?
no beer before posting on prune….no beer……..too late…..
It's all good
As for 'it's all good'…….that second one needs to be spread like a virus….otherwise it'll be all very, very bad!
Last time we had Darth Dixon…this time lets use a different movie…..
Forget Joyce, he's Saruman….a gullible puppet…..we really need to be free of the puppet-master Lord Sauron and his evil board of Ring-Wraiths……
..and you can guess who Wormtongue is……...
So who's Frodo……?
no beer before posting on prune….no beer……..too late…..
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hey! Give sheldon and the TWU the flick! Do the same to that idiot Purvis, or whatever his name is, and the Lames, and do your own thing!
Get rid of the poncy red ties and the poncy PAs and grow some balls!
You're an embarrassment to pilots all over the world!!
Get rid of the poncy red ties and the poncy PAs and grow some balls!
You're an embarrassment to pilots all over the world!!