MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.

[T28D]

MBS: Industrial Dispute at the Robe River Iron Ore Mine


http://the-white-picket-fence.******...obe-river.html

[Oldmate]

The lockout notice stated "All employees who will be covered by the proposed EA8 will be locked out"

Does anyone have any knowledge or thoughts on the legalities of locking out those longhaul pilots that are not union members and were not permitted to participate in industrial action?

Thanks,

(for the record I am an aipa member)

[TIMA9X]

Virgin basks in the glow as brand Qantas crashes and burns

Qantas's chief executive, Alan Joyce, might have had the toughest week of his life but the man who lost out to him for the top job at the Flying Kangaroo is now basking in the glow. Virgin Australia's boss, John Borghetti, said today that the grounding of Qantas's fleet for two days showed the need for a "strong second carrier".
Qantas grounded its fleet on Saturday afternoon, stranding tens of thousands of passengers worldwide.
Advertisement: Story continues below
Mr Borghetti, who chose his words carefully at a business lunch in Sydney today, said some of the passengers who had switched to Virgin during the Qantas grounding would "stick".
He conceded that Qantas's predicament presented an "opportunity" on which his airline could capitalise.
Virgin carried 30,000 extra passengers in the three days after Qantas grounded its fleet, while those passing though its airport lounges "went through the roof – they literally went stratospheric".
"Virgin Australia reacted very, very quickly and made sure Australia kept moving," he said.
With Qantas's relationship with the federal government now described as toxic, Mr Borgehtti was keen to emphasise the support Virgin had received from Canberra as it attempted to boost flights to meet the demand after the grounding

Read more: Virgin basks in the glow as brand Qantas crashes and burns

nuff said

[david1300]

@peuce: "Let me riddle you this....

Say Qantas gets what it wants. It goes offshore, it recruits pilots and cabin crew from Asia, it has all its maintenance done in Mumbai and its call centre in Shanghai. Costs have now decreased significantly.

Please tell me why I am now booking on Qantas? ... instead of, say, Emirates"

But this applies even now. Look the Qantas declining market share already posted on this thread. Q is losing ground year after year because fewer people can see the reason for paying the Q premium (From post 288 by Metro Man:"...Internationally it's a totally different ball game. Back in 1976 QF had a 46% share, 1996 it was 39%, ten years ago 35% and today less than 20%. Asian and Middle Eastern competators play by different rules...").

From my post 238: And from the above you can see I am not alone.
7 - the last international flights I have flown are:
7a - London return - Singapore Airlines. Cheaper and in my view, equal or better service than Qantas
7b - Vancouver & return via Auckland - code share Air NZ/Air Canada. Less convenient than Qantas connections, but cheaper and in my view equal or better service than Qantas.
7c - San Francisco & return via Sydney - Cheaper (United), very average service, would use next cheapest next time. Would use Qantas if they were price competitive.
7d - Jahannesburg & return - Qantas because I had accumulated over 400,000 frequent flyer points over the last years, had not used any for the past 4 years and decided to use them up.
From this you'll see I am like many others - I am driven by a price/value/quality equation, and Qantas no longer comes out near best. Without people like me buying tickets. people like you won't have a job. It's that simple.

[david1300]

@TIMA9X: Interesting to see you reposting the praise for John Borghetti, but doesn't he run an airline that could be described as a low-cost carrier (just what you don't want Q to become) more akin to J* than Q?

And he has also had to address allegations that VA pays less:
"VIRGIN Australia chief executive John Borghetti has rejected claims the airline's pilots, engineers and ground crew are paid substantially less than those at Qantas Airways."
Gold Coast Breaking News :: News | goldcoast.com.au | Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia

Isn't part of what AJ is trying to achieve exactly what Borghetti has had the freedom to do?

I suggest that he got the better deal, becoming head of VA rather than Q, as if he was now in AJ's shoes he would probably be implementing the board policy that AJ has to implement, and would be just as unpopular amongst Q employees as AJ is.

[hotnhigh]

Joe Hockey answers. Raises more questions.
Govt, Oppn trade Qantas questions - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Government seizes on Hockey's Qantas comments - ABC Newcastle NSW - Australian Broadcasting Corporation

[david1300]

@hotnhigh - interesting, but many regard the ABC as the media arm of the Australian Labor Party, so balance those news reports with some others, too.

[peuce]

David1300,

Without people like me buying tickets. people like you won't have a job. It's that simple.

Wild assumptions again ... you buying Qantas tickets has absolutely no bearing on my income.

But this applies even now. Look the Qantas declining market share already posted on this thread

Yes, exactly as I said in a previous post. Less people are willing to pay a premium price for an inferior product.

So, wont the numbers be even less as Qantas continues to shed its link to Australia and its premium trimmings?

My question still remains unanswered...

Why am I going to buy a ticket on a "New Qantas" flight?

What will it have that I want?
What will it have that others don't have?
What added value will I receive?
Why will it make me feel warm and fuzzy?

[hotnhigh]

David1300, maybe I should ask Geoffrey Thomas for further reports? I think the bigger issue here is, if you ask the appropriate questions, you might get some very interesting answers.
And why during question time on monday, was every question thrown by the opposition about qantas, and we get to today, and there was not one?

Slowly but surely, it appears things aren't going to plan for Abbott, Hockey, wirth and Joyce. I'm looking forward to friday. I hope you think you'll receive a balanced view after the senate enquiry begins.

[neville_nobody]

Why am I going to buy a ticket on a "New Qantas" flight?

What will it have that I want?
What will it have that others don't have?
What added value will I receive?
Why will it make me feel warm and fuzzy?

Will it get you there alive is probably the question to be asking.

[david1300]

@peuce: "Wild assumptions again ... you buying Qantas tickets has absolutely no bearing on my income."

Didn't you read the post correctly? That comment is an extract from an earlier post, was prefaced as such, and was not directed at you, so there is no assumption on my part. That earlier post of mine (238) was directed at Q employees, and was even in a different colour so that it was clear to everyone reading it.

[Tidbinbilla]

David,

There is no need to place an @ in front of your posts. This is PPRuNe, not "Twatter"

[bankrunner]

Originally Posted by david1300

@TIMA9X: Interesting to see you reposting the praise for John Borghetti, but doesn't he run an airline that could be described as a low-cost carrier (just what you don't want Q to become) more akin to J* than Q?

No, Virgin is doing the exact opposite. It's moving away from the unsustainable (as Virgin describes it) LCC model to becoming a full service carrier, and the Virgin Blue -> Virgin Australia rebrand was a part of this.

[QF94]

Isn't part of what AJ is trying to achieve exactly what Borghetti has had the freedom to do?

I suggest that he got the better deal, becoming head of VA rather than Q, as if he was now in AJ's shoes he would probably be implementing the board policy that AJ has to implement, and would be just as unpopular amongst Q employees as AJ is.

John Borghetti is changing the various Virgin brands (Virgin Blue, Pacific Blue and V Australia) into one (Virgin Australia). That's what you get when you have the ex-head of QANTAS operations, a premium airline running a low cost carrier and combining the two.

AJ has mostly been involved in low cost carriers, and is hell-bent on making a premium airline into a two brand product, with the lower cost model dominating. Virgin is exposed to the same competition QANTAS is, both domestically and internationally. You don't see Borghetti bleating about the competition or trying to make off shoots all over the place. Yes, they are an off shoot from Virgin Atlantic, but are pretty well self-sustaining, as opposed to JQ, who is heavily dependent on QF, and it is yet to be investigated about cost shifting from JQ onto QF, very much the same story Ansett experienced before its demis in 2001. Air NZ was shifting all of its costs onto Ansett.

John Borghetti failed in his bid to secure a position as CEO in QANTAS, because in past disputes and prior to the shutting down of heavy maintenance in Sydney, he opposed the board on both occasions as he said it was not a wise move to do so, and that QANTAS would lose control of what it always had control of. Its own maintenance, and to not get the employees off-side. I guess the board of a few years in QANTAS didn't care about a QANTAS employee of 33 years climbing through the ranks to head the QANTAS operations or his qualified opinions.

[SimonBl]

Just got this from AJ, copied here without comment (at this point as I am busy at work):

Hello Simon

Now that Qantas has resumed normal operations I would like to update you on what the recent decision by Fair Work Australia means for you.

I apologise sincerely for any inconvenience that you or your family experienced during the grounding of the Qantas fleet between Saturday evening and Monday afternoon.

The decision to lock out some of our employees was an immensely difficult one and one that I did not want to have to make. But it was a decision that we were driven to by the industrial action of three unions, together representing less than 20 percent of Qantas employees.

As of last Friday, industrial action by those unions had forced the cancellation of hundreds of flights, disrupted 70,000 passengers and cost Qantas $68 million. Two union leaders had warned that industrial action could continue into next year.

This would have had a devastating effect on our customers, on all Qantas employees and on the businesses which depend on Qantas services.

On Saturday, I came to the conclusion that this crisis had to end. I made the decision to proceed with a lock-out, the only form of protected industrial action available to Qantas under the Fair Work Act, so that agreement could be reached quickly.

Unfortunately, it was necessary as a precautionary measure to ground the fleet immediately after the announcement that a lock-out would take place. While I deeply regret the short-term impact of the fleet being grounded, following the Fair Work Australia decision we now have absolute certainty for our customers. No further industrial action can take place. No more aircraft will be grounded and no services cancelled as a result of industrial action.

You can now book Qantas flights with complete confidence. This is an immeasurably better situation than last Friday, when Qantas faced the prospect of ongoing disruptions, perhaps for another 12 months.

We have now moved into 21 days of negotiations with each of the unions with the assistance of Fair Work Australia. All parties will be treated equally in order to reach reasonable agreements. If this cannot happen, binding arbitration will take place to secure an outcome. We will respect whatever decisions are reached.

Regardless of how and when the agreements are reached, the period of uncertainty and instability for Qantas is over. We are moving forward and putting this dispute behind us.

Our focus now is on our customers. We want to restore your faith by returning our on-time performance to its normal high levels, continuing to invest in new aircraft and lounges and ensuring the best possible in-flight experience.

The end of industrial action means we can concentrate on what matters – getting you to your destination on time and in comfort, offering the best network and frequency of any Australian airline and rewarding your loyalty as a Qantas Frequent Flyer.

Thank you for your patience and for your continued support of Qantas.

[Roo]

Conquest/441,

I guess my question more directly then is "How does he weigh up the effect of an immediate grounding causing significant brand damage, with the option of a (say) 72hr delay that I'm sure he knew would have exactly the same outcome minus the significant trashing of the brand?"

My feeling is that he did not count on having to carry out the threat of an immediate grounding. He thought the threat thereof would force the Government to act immediately to Terminate before going to FWA. When they did not do this, QF had no choice but to follow through with their threat. I am not at all sure their lawyers judged a 72hr delay would lead to the same outcome. They probably judged it would lead to Suspension of PIA to prevent what FWA saw as impending irreparable damage to the economy occurring.

The sabotage / crew safety / state of mind issue was a Furphy to justify immediate action. In any case QF told crews in flight, hours from destination that they had grounded the outfit. How do you think that went down with an operating crews morale in flight (Think CC shocked and in tears etc)? If they genuinely cared about the Safety issue, there is no way these messages would have gone out.

[breakfastburrito]

Todays Qantas questions from the house of reps.



The 7:30 report Hockey interview referenced in the questions was posted earlier (reproduced for those that haven't seen it, watch it first):

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

How do we know that crews were told inflight about the grounding? Were acars messages sent?

[The Voice]

there was a post to that affect somewhere back in the first half of the pages relative to this topic

[Jetro6UL]

Originally Posted by Tidbinbilla

David,

There is no need to place an @ in front of your posts. This is PPRuNe, not "Twatter"

Tell the Admins to add a quote button to the forum and then it'd be easier to distinguish between what people are posting and what they are quoting....