MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.
"Human Error" ??
Funny how no company notices were released on Wednesday 26th.
So the template was based on something that hadn't even occurred!
More evidence of the lying f
in management.
Funny how no company notices were released on Wednesday 26th.
So the template was based on something that hadn't even occurred!
More evidence of the lying f
in management.
I wouldn't think that a major airline would resort to such poor IT practices as "copy and paste" memos
I have a copy of BBs memo to all Jetstar employees on the grounding- dated 26th October!! Just domt know how to post a copy on here!!
Then go to tinypic.com and upload the image. That will give you a link to post here
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I hate to think what what Australia's economy will be like by the time my 1 year old daughter retires, after all the dirt worth digging out of the ground has been shipped to China and we have nothing more to offer.
No wuckkers they all say, Australia can be a "Service" economy !!
We can put overseas students through our Unis // Run large banks & financial centres // Run Medical centres of excellence....................
Yet there is no need for these services to be solely supplied by Australians, in Australia.
When happen next when The Big US Universities get serious about setting up campuses in every major city in Asia ?
When China / Thailand / Indonesia get serious and set up a fair-dinkum financial trading centres ?
If it was easy to cease manufacturing, what will stop the almost overnight loss of our "Service Industries" ??
ST
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Without a doubt it is incumbent upon every QF employee, locked out or otherwise to pack their uniform away and not step foot on QF property until this is over.
If you think for one minute that because your union isn't on the hit list this doesn't effect you, you're sadly mistaken.
The employees of QF are really the only ones who have the power to end this.
If no-one works there is no airline.
Execs must be reminded of this immediately.
Power to the people.
If you think for one minute that because your union isn't on the hit list this doesn't effect you, you're sadly mistaken.
The employees of QF are really the only ones who have the power to end this.
If no-one works there is no airline.
Execs must be reminded of this immediately.
Power to the people.
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If the end product justifies the premium, absolutely. And that's one of the reasons why QF International finds itself in its current predicament.
Old 744s with failure prone and content sparse IFE, an unhealthy love for the warzone known as LAX (as opposed to excellent airports such as SFO)...
Old 744s with failure prone and content sparse IFE, an unhealthy love for the warzone known as LAX (as opposed to excellent airports such as SFO)...
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I hate Tw itt er, but installed on the old iphone today to follow coverage.
Poor Leigh Howard would have s p o r t s b e t finger!
When I started following him a few hours ago, ~400 already on board. As at 2330 AEDT, 1,916 and counting were following. This is big.
After the TWU submissions, there is still ALAEA to come, yes? No?
Typical Qantas hogs all the airtime... ironically enough, all involved will now actually be suffering from fatigue for real. Cheers AJ.
Poor Leigh Howard would have s p o r t s b e t finger!
When I started following him a few hours ago, ~400 already on board. As at 2330 AEDT, 1,916 and counting were following. This is big.
After the TWU submissions, there is still ALAEA to come, yes? No?
Typical Qantas hogs all the airtime... ironically enough, all involved will now actually be suffering from fatigue for real. Cheers AJ.
Last edited by Bahama Breeze; 30th Oct 2011 at 12:33. Reason: I do not hate PPRune, I meant Tw itt er
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Interested parties will be picking through the details of Qantas' actions in the days to come....
The QF PR machine will be working very hard to put a veneer of respectability on what has been the equivalent of bringing a nuke to a knife fight.
A lot of stranded passengers that did not need to be stranded (or could have been warned) will need to be placated
An early play of the ace card will have to bite someone at QF, don't see how it cannot
Time for the unions to show that this is the kind of management that they have had to deal with - something like Bob Brown said, Millionaire board and management, arrogant and driven only by the bottom line lockout workers in red ties....
For all those self appointed capitalist commentators out there, there is more to business than the bottom line alone, AJ, LC and co will reap this lesson in the fullness of time, you can win the war but must win the peace and engage your staff - little chance of that now
The QF PR machine will be working very hard to put a veneer of respectability on what has been the equivalent of bringing a nuke to a knife fight.
A lot of stranded passengers that did not need to be stranded (or could have been warned) will need to be placated
An early play of the ace card will have to bite someone at QF, don't see how it cannot
Time for the unions to show that this is the kind of management that they have had to deal with - something like Bob Brown said, Millionaire board and management, arrogant and driven only by the bottom line lockout workers in red ties....
For all those self appointed capitalist commentators out there, there is more to business than the bottom line alone, AJ, LC and co will reap this lesson in the fullness of time, you can win the war but must win the peace and engage your staff - little chance of that now
If the end product justifies the premium, absolutely.
Yes I'll pay a bit more IF they're giving me what I want.
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ASIC
Based on the letter dated Wednesday 26 October reported by the ABC suggesting that the grounding and lock out was pre planned, I have chosen to lodge a formal complaint online with ASIC against Qantas and listing the respondents as Alan Joyce and Leigh Clifford. Let them fully investigate the allegations as they have rights to enter the premises and obtain whatever documents are required.
Australian Securities and Investments Commission - Complaining about companies or people
Australian Securities and Investments Commission - Complaining about companies or people
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Qantas
If BB sent a memo on the 26 th in regard to the forthcoming grounding of Qantas. Tells you that he can't be that smart in my estimation, and by the way the computer dosnt lie as to when it was sent!!!!
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I read this on the internet today , an airline review that gives Qantas management 1 star out of 5
Quote:
Corporate Culture
Qantas has long sat on its hands and relied on its flag carrier status to win itself customers, however the travelling public have demonstrated their dissatisfaction by booking on other airlines offering a superior product. The upper echelon of the company is an old boys club, devoid of ideas, initiative or talent where promotion is based on ‘brown nosing’ and knowing the right people. Corruption and incompetence thrive within the company at all levels. Senior management despise the airline’s unionised staff and the airline suffers from an upstairs/downstairs culture. Ordinary business decisions are celebrated as landmark achievements by Qantas’ mediocre managers. Alan Joyce has been accused of ‘Jetstarizing’ Qantas and many aviation commentators now believe he is the wrong man for the job and predict his demise. Qantas' poisonous corporate culture is the root cause for the airlines decline. It share price is nosediving along with support for the company. Management grounding of the airline is practically unprecedented in aviation and will cause long term damage to the airlines already tarnished reputation. Alan Joyce's 71% pay rise two days before he grounded the airline is a public relations disaster.
Qantas Airways - Airline Review
Qantas Airways - Airline Review
And this to say about Jetstar
Quote:
Corporate Culture
Qantas has long sat on its hands and relied on its flag carrier status to win itself customers, however the travelling public have demonstrated their dissatisfaction by booking on other airlines offering a superior product. The upper echelon of the company is an old boys club, devoid of ideas, initiative or talent where promotion is based on ‘brown nosing’ and knowing the right people. Corruption and incompetence thrive within the company at all levels. Senior management despise the airline’s unionised staff and the airline suffers from an upstairs/downstairs culture. Ordinary business decisions are celebrated as landmark achievements by Qantas’ mediocre managers. Alan Joyce has been accused of ‘Jetstarizing’ Qantas and many aviation commentators now believe he is the wrong man for the job and predict his demise. Qantas' poisonous corporate culture is the root cause for the airlines decline. It share price is nosediving along with support for the company. Management grounding of the airline is practically unprecedented in aviation and will cause long term damage to the airlines already tarnished reputation. Alan Joyce's 71% pay rise two days before he grounded the airline is a public relations disaster.
Qantas Airways - Airline Review
History
On 29 October 2011 with the support of Qantas' board, the airline's CEO announced the voluntary grounding of the airline. Irish-born Alan Joyce has been progressively de-Australianising 'the flying kangaroo' since he took over from the unloved Geoff Dixon in 2008. The airline has progressively shifted operations offshore, reduced wages and conditions for staff and outsourced anything its able to, to cheaper suppliers. This strategy has failed to produce benefits as the airlines market share has declined dramatically while its share price has halved in two years. Founded in 1920 in outback Queensland as the Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Services, Australia’s largest airline is the third oldest in the world (after KLM and Avianca). The airline evolved through many incarnations until it emerged in the 1950’s as an Australian Government owned international carrier. In 1992 Qantas absorbed the domestic Australian Airlines and in 1993 the airline was privatised. In 2001 Qantas was handed almost 90% domestic market share when its chief rival, Ansett, collapsed. In 2007 a consortium led by Macquarie Bank failed in their controversial bid to acquire the company. Geoff Dixon, the airline’s antagonistic CEO would have profited $60 million from the transaction and he recommended ‘sell’. Under the terms of the airlines privatisation Qantas must remain 51% Australian owned. In October 2011 the CEO claimed he had received death threats from union members, but the story is more likely to have been exploited to win public sympathy. Community support for Qantas is visibly evaporating and Virgin Australia has responded positively to fill the gap caused by Qantas' voluntary grounding.
On 29 October 2011 with the support of Qantas' board, the airline's CEO announced the voluntary grounding of the airline. Irish-born Alan Joyce has been progressively de-Australianising 'the flying kangaroo' since he took over from the unloved Geoff Dixon in 2008. The airline has progressively shifted operations offshore, reduced wages and conditions for staff and outsourced anything its able to, to cheaper suppliers. This strategy has failed to produce benefits as the airlines market share has declined dramatically while its share price has halved in two years. Founded in 1920 in outback Queensland as the Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Services, Australia’s largest airline is the third oldest in the world (after KLM and Avianca). The airline evolved through many incarnations until it emerged in the 1950’s as an Australian Government owned international carrier. In 1992 Qantas absorbed the domestic Australian Airlines and in 1993 the airline was privatised. In 2001 Qantas was handed almost 90% domestic market share when its chief rival, Ansett, collapsed. In 2007 a consortium led by Macquarie Bank failed in their controversial bid to acquire the company. Geoff Dixon, the airline’s antagonistic CEO would have profited $60 million from the transaction and he recommended ‘sell’. Under the terms of the airlines privatisation Qantas must remain 51% Australian owned. In October 2011 the CEO claimed he had received death threats from union members, but the story is more likely to have been exploited to win public sympathy. Community support for Qantas is visibly evaporating and Virgin Australia has responded positively to fill the gap caused by Qantas' voluntary grounding.
And this to say about Jetstar
Corporate Culture
Jetstar shares the same corporate culture as its parent, Qantas. Nepotism, corruption, favouritism, incompetence and an old boy’s network all flourish within the Jetstar Club. Managers are out of touch with staff and there is a ‘them and us’ mentality throughout the company. Managers ignore real issues within the airline and tell staff to leave rather than fix problems. Jetstar work experience can leave many highly employable people scared from their hostile work experience within Jetstar. Jetstar’s former boss, Alan Joyce has gone on to become Qantas CEO. Jetstar has a nice colour scheme, logo and image (which it copied) but is not a nice company to be involved with. Some of the names it’s earned from customers include Onestar, Pornstar and ****star.
Jetstar - Rating
Cheap, nasty and awful slowing taking over Qantas’ network and spreading through Asia.
Jetstar shares the same corporate culture as its parent, Qantas. Nepotism, corruption, favouritism, incompetence and an old boy’s network all flourish within the Jetstar Club. Managers are out of touch with staff and there is a ‘them and us’ mentality throughout the company. Managers ignore real issues within the airline and tell staff to leave rather than fix problems. Jetstar work experience can leave many highly employable people scared from their hostile work experience within Jetstar. Jetstar’s former boss, Alan Joyce has gone on to become Qantas CEO. Jetstar has a nice colour scheme, logo and image (which it copied) but is not a nice company to be involved with. Some of the names it’s earned from customers include Onestar, Pornstar and ****star.
Jetstar - Rating
Cheap, nasty and awful slowing taking over Qantas’ network and spreading through Asia.
Last edited by aseanaero; 30th Oct 2011 at 12:52.
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Sometime back I posted this on a different thread.
I had a very interesting email from a colleague who is closely associated with Irish Business. It is his opinion that we are all labouring under our Australian beliefs and teachings. AJ isn’t attached to, or constrained by, these beliefs, teaching or our history. He is not an Australian and had been brought up in a Country where intellectual betrayal, or more specifically, mental reservation, casuistry and equivocation are accepted practice.
As he (my colleague) explained, the Collins Dictionary defines mental reservation as....’a tacit withholding of full assent or an unexpressed qualification made when one is taking an oath, making a statement, etc.’ Casuistry is ....’ reasoning that is specious, misleading, or oversubtle’.
The doctrines of mental reservation and casuistry were developed in the middle ages and are most often associated with the Jesuits. Mental reservation involves truths "expressed partly in speech and partly in the mind," relying upon the idea that God hears what is in one's mind while human beings hear only what one speaks. Verbally, “I did not steal any sheep on Tuesday”, mentally continuing, “it was on Wednesday”. It is a way of telling lies while being able to claim that you’ve been completely honest. For instance, the Primate of Ireland, Cardinal Desmond Connell, was comfortable with telling journalists that diocesan funds are not used to pay off the victims of clerical abusers, and he was very pleased with the subtlety of his language. He took great satisfaction in explaining that he didn’t say such funds were not used in the past, and if the journalists happened to be hoodwinked by his clever use of language, why that was just their own misfortune for not being as slippery smart as the Cardinal!
In our culture the statement, “Mr. Boyce is not in the office” typically means that Boyce is not taking phone calls right now (or, at least not this particular phone call). The caller understands (or should understand) that this is a polite way of saying, “Boyce is not available to you at this moment, even though he is actually in the office.” No one is really fooled by this expression using ambiguous language; we simply take it for what it is.
President Bill Clinton was educated at the foremost Jesuit training centre, Georgetown University. According to Clinton's biographer David Maraniss, the President owed his formidable skills as a criminal defendant to 'his training in casuistry at Georgetown University'. Casuistry is equivocal to rationalization, “to cause something to seem reasonable, to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct”. We all recall Bill Clinton, a former Rhodes Scholar, insist that he did not have sexual relations with that woman, when most guys in his position would be more than happy to think of what he got up to as just that!
Closer to home there was the Australian Spycatcher affair. Sir Robert Armstrong, now Baron Armstrong, produced the magnificent phrase “economical with the truth”. The world loved the patent absurdity of Armstrong’s phrase, and laughed at it, because we all understood what he meant. Economical with the truth! Every parent knows who took the sweets, or put a football through the window. It was Mister Nobody or maybe a kamikaze.
The question that should be asked of AJ and the QF spin doctors is, ‘Do you have a mental reservation in respect of your statement?’
As he (my colleague) explained, the Collins Dictionary defines mental reservation as....’a tacit withholding of full assent or an unexpressed qualification made when one is taking an oath, making a statement, etc.’ Casuistry is ....’ reasoning that is specious, misleading, or oversubtle’.
The doctrines of mental reservation and casuistry were developed in the middle ages and are most often associated with the Jesuits. Mental reservation involves truths "expressed partly in speech and partly in the mind," relying upon the idea that God hears what is in one's mind while human beings hear only what one speaks. Verbally, “I did not steal any sheep on Tuesday”, mentally continuing, “it was on Wednesday”. It is a way of telling lies while being able to claim that you’ve been completely honest. For instance, the Primate of Ireland, Cardinal Desmond Connell, was comfortable with telling journalists that diocesan funds are not used to pay off the victims of clerical abusers, and he was very pleased with the subtlety of his language. He took great satisfaction in explaining that he didn’t say such funds were not used in the past, and if the journalists happened to be hoodwinked by his clever use of language, why that was just their own misfortune for not being as slippery smart as the Cardinal!
In our culture the statement, “Mr. Boyce is not in the office” typically means that Boyce is not taking phone calls right now (or, at least not this particular phone call). The caller understands (or should understand) that this is a polite way of saying, “Boyce is not available to you at this moment, even though he is actually in the office.” No one is really fooled by this expression using ambiguous language; we simply take it for what it is.
President Bill Clinton was educated at the foremost Jesuit training centre, Georgetown University. According to Clinton's biographer David Maraniss, the President owed his formidable skills as a criminal defendant to 'his training in casuistry at Georgetown University'. Casuistry is equivocal to rationalization, “to cause something to seem reasonable, to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct”. We all recall Bill Clinton, a former Rhodes Scholar, insist that he did not have sexual relations with that woman, when most guys in his position would be more than happy to think of what he got up to as just that!
Closer to home there was the Australian Spycatcher affair. Sir Robert Armstrong, now Baron Armstrong, produced the magnificent phrase “economical with the truth”. The world loved the patent absurdity of Armstrong’s phrase, and laughed at it, because we all understood what he meant. Economical with the truth! Every parent knows who took the sweets, or put a football through the window. It was Mister Nobody or maybe a kamikaze.
The question that should be asked of AJ and the QF spin doctors is, ‘Do you have a mental reservation in respect of your statement?’
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Submissions are over at FWA. Adjourn for 10 minutes then a possible decision. (twittered by Leigh Howard)
Last edited by sani-com; 30th Oct 2011 at 13:01. Reason: twitter source
I've just been reading through the Fair Work Act and I don't see how the government or minister or anyone can terminate OR suspend the protected industrial action being taken by the pilots or the engineers.
The Act specifies that FWA MUST terminate or suspend protected industrial action if it could "cause significant damage to the Australian economy or an important part of it."
The definition of protected industrial action is:
a) employee claim action for the agreement
b) employee response action for the agreement
or
c) employer response action for the agreement
So, FWA MUST terminate or suspend the employer response action by Qantas management, as that is what is causing the damage to the economy.
The action by the pilots is in no way harming the Australian economy and they therefore have no right to suspend or terminate it!
The action by the engineers, while more drastic than the pilots, could hardly be called a risk to the Australian economy.
Thoughts?
(Reference Fair Work Act 2009, 408 and 424.)
The Act specifies that FWA MUST terminate or suspend protected industrial action if it could "cause significant damage to the Australian economy or an important part of it."
The definition of protected industrial action is:
a) employee claim action for the agreement
b) employee response action for the agreement
or
c) employer response action for the agreement
So, FWA MUST terminate or suspend the employer response action by Qantas management, as that is what is causing the damage to the economy.
The action by the pilots is in no way harming the Australian economy and they therefore have no right to suspend or terminate it!
The action by the engineers, while more drastic than the pilots, could hardly be called a risk to the Australian economy.
Thoughts?
(Reference Fair Work Act 2009, 408 and 424.)
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bob johns
Bank runner I have been in my life an apprentice electrician ,maintainance sparks in a tyre factory ,an operator in an electricity distribution organisation a professional pilot for 25 years ( 12500 hrs)unions were-ETU- AFAP -PNGAPA CFMEU and held positions other than just being a member .Unions are essential . In the work place. Very essential, they need to be strong and honest in their dealings with management Unfortunately the other mob dont always be honest either ,some of the bastardry in the Pilbara by the Union (S) and management. In the late 70 /80 would make you sick. Unions should have no direct place in politics at all ,other than to be heard from the outside of parliament like the rest of us.In this affair I hope the QF staff ,the lot, prevail over what is just another nail in the coffin of Aussie Nationalism if the little creep and his mongrel mates get their way.
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Leigh_howard
Whilst we're waiting for FWA, I'd just like to express my appreciation for Leigh_Howard and the work he's put in tonight to allow us to keep up with proceedings.
I'm not a twit user so can't thank him personally, but would like him to know that his efforts haven't gone unnoticed. Thanks Leigh.
P.S. My thanks also go out to others offering similar updates tonight.
I'm not a twit user so can't thank him personally, but would like him to know that his efforts haven't gone unnoticed. Thanks Leigh.
P.S. My thanks also go out to others offering similar updates tonight.
Last edited by gretzky99; 30th Oct 2011 at 13:28. Reason: To add thanks to others I'm not actively following.
Hope is Alan Joyce will become the most hated man in Australia. I doubt he will ever be able to fly on a Qantas plane again or show his head in public. Doubt he will still be able to live in The Rocks either - too small a place to hide.
I reckon give him max 12 months and he will be gone
I reckon give him max 12 months and he will be gone