MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.
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FWA Decision
I notice that paragraph 7 of the FWA decision reads -
I don't know about the pax, the flights or the $, but from what I understand, the groundings are bullsh*t. Some of the aircraft were being readied for sale. If Qantas said that in the proceedings, that would be perjury, would it not? Please correct me if I am wrong.
Qantas produced material indicating that the protected action taken by the unions prior to 29 October had affected 70,000 passengers, led to the cancellation of 600 flights, the grounding of 7 aircraft, $70 million in damage.
Management In Charge..
Wrong............It was to create a scenario that instantly damaged the economy......rapidly. Hence the available trigger to ask for termination. It didn't have anything to do with safety.
A bullet to the guts of all Australians no matter who they fly with or who they work for. Designed to cause mass panic and destruction in the shortest possible time frame. Delivered or fired by the management of Qantas.
All because it was starting to get difficult for them. Well guess what? The questions are being asked and the facts are starting to come out.
Qantas, backed by big business, as Alan Joyce has already acknowledge with his statement that he has lots of emails of support from them, was hoping to paint the fair work legislation as a failure. Well they are going to be proven radically wrong in the next few days.
I've never been a supporter of Gillard nor Albanese, however, question time today was enthralling. Their responses to the questions highlighted the massive gap between the liberal party and themselves.
Tony Abbott better learn pretty quickly that this has nothing to do with big bad unions. And continuing with this line of questioning is only going to highlight their complete misunderstanding of the fair work legislation and understanding of the whole drama. They looked like the amateurs today.
Up until yesterday I thought there wasn't a hope in hell for Gillard in the next election, but Qantas has handed her a lifeline of massive proportions by their stupid act. Now fair work legislation/work choices is front and centre, and the average Australian will quickly work out what the big end of town really stands for.(again) Themselves.
Nice one Alan.
Brilliant strategy.
P.S. Really looking forward to flying again tomorrow. Can someone tape question time? Thanks for offering management in charge.
4. The grounding of the fleet was particularly thoughtful of management.
A bullet to the guts of all Australians no matter who they fly with or who they work for. Designed to cause mass panic and destruction in the shortest possible time frame. Delivered or fired by the management of Qantas.
All because it was starting to get difficult for them. Well guess what? The questions are being asked and the facts are starting to come out.
Qantas, backed by big business, as Alan Joyce has already acknowledge with his statement that he has lots of emails of support from them, was hoping to paint the fair work legislation as a failure. Well they are going to be proven radically wrong in the next few days.
I've never been a supporter of Gillard nor Albanese, however, question time today was enthralling. Their responses to the questions highlighted the massive gap between the liberal party and themselves.
Tony Abbott better learn pretty quickly that this has nothing to do with big bad unions. And continuing with this line of questioning is only going to highlight their complete misunderstanding of the fair work legislation and understanding of the whole drama. They looked like the amateurs today.
Up until yesterday I thought there wasn't a hope in hell for Gillard in the next election, but Qantas has handed her a lifeline of massive proportions by their stupid act. Now fair work legislation/work choices is front and centre, and the average Australian will quickly work out what the big end of town really stands for.(again) Themselves.
Nice one Alan.
Brilliant strategy.
P.S. Really looking forward to flying again tomorrow. Can someone tape question time? Thanks for offering management in charge.
I don't know about the pax, the flights or the $, but from what I understand, the groundings are bullsh*t. Some of the aircraft were being readied for sale. If Qantas said that in the proceedings, that would be perjury, would it not? Please correct me if I am wrong.
The fact is, the Fair Work legislation is an absolute crock and Gillard has essentially opened a back door for big business to circumvent PIA.
Even if the total loss to Qantas had been $70 rather than $70 million, it makes no difference to yesterday's judgement. The relationship between the financial cost to the airline of the union's action compared to the cost of Qantas' action is irrelevant. In fact, whether Qantas' grounding was appropriate or even legal is irrelevant - the point is, when Jooolia thinks there might be damage to the economy, she can stop it all on a whim and there is no accountability for Qantas' actions.
It's flawed legislation, and it's a national disgrace, and today (for the first time in my life) I'm embarassed to be an Australian.
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The only solution now is to bring onboard a CEO that knows how to extract the best from his staff and find a Chairman who has a passion for putting this company back on top, instead of spending his well paid time annilating eveyone who doesn't seem to share his views
An extract from one of Hudson Fysh's books:
"Out of the rubble of war was born international transport - it had to be organised or chaos loomed - so the nations went to work.
Then the Qantas organisation, battered and war-weakened, was refashioned, and rose in a memorable period for further great things which lay ahead."
"In which Qantas spreads its wings to the world. In 1957 we encircled the globe, and sprang to world prominence, backed by a fine human service, the Qantas staff; and so we prospered."
Wings to the World may have been written in 1970, but an acknowledgement of the staff is what makes a great company. Not the management.
The current management need to take a leaf out of this book. Staff check-in passengers, clean the aircraft, cater the aircraft, load the aircraft, maintain the aircraft, fly the aircraft, serve the passengers, ensure compliance with regulatory bodies. The list goes on, but I won't. This applies to all industries. Not just aviation or QANTAS.
A sound company has sound practices and a willing workforce. Not just board members, profits and shareholders.
I know I'll be told that's not the way of the world today.
The basics never change. If customers are confident and convinced that the staff are genuine to their needs, the money will readily flow in. Unfortunately, we've engaged in a race to the bottom to be like everyone else.
Slippery Pete,
And that's why she didn't use the piece of legislation that Tony Abbott is going on about, because it would have turned into a legal quagmire where her decision had the potential to be legally challenged in court and hence drawn the whole saga out for weeks as opposed to the two days as determined via Fair work.
The piece of legislation that Abbott is talking about is the ultimate piece of legislation should it be required. Perhaps Qantas believed that Gillard would have jumped to this first so as to try and claim some collateral damage to the other pieces of legislation along the way. I'm not sure. But one thing is for sure, the required proof of economic damage was provided for by Qantas managements actions in grounding the fleet, not the unions use of pia.
the point is, when Jooolia thinks there might be damage to the economy, she can stop it all on a whim and there is no accountability for Qantas' actions.
The piece of legislation that Abbott is talking about is the ultimate piece of legislation should it be required. Perhaps Qantas believed that Gillard would have jumped to this first so as to try and claim some collateral damage to the other pieces of legislation along the way. I'm not sure. But one thing is for sure, the required proof of economic damage was provided for by Qantas managements actions in grounding the fleet, not the unions use of pia.
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The main issue for most Australians is that the system gives them a satisfying job, a job that helps them live the life they want to have and an income to meet their needs and hopes. A job well done in a cooperative, close-working relationship between management and employees can generate more productive work practices, provide more income for workers and enhance the capacity of Australian businesses to compete locally and internationally.
Hi hotnhigh.
Yes, I agree there are merits of the independent umpire method vs. Julia doing it directly under 424 or whatever it is, but those things are largely unimportant to my argument.
Whichever way it is achieved, it means big business can circumvent PIA. It's as simple as that.
BHP or any number of large businesses operating in Australia could do the same thing tomorrow - shut down their entire Australian operations because of a little PIA, economy looks like it could be damaged - and BINGO! - FWA by application (or Julia directly) roll over in a matter of hours.
Yes, I agree there are merits of the independent umpire method vs. Julia doing it directly under 424 or whatever it is, but those things are largely unimportant to my argument.
Whichever way it is achieved, it means big business can circumvent PIA. It's as simple as that.
BHP or any number of large businesses operating in Australia could do the same thing tomorrow - shut down their entire Australian operations because of a little PIA, economy looks like it could be damaged - and BINGO! - FWA by application (or Julia directly) roll over in a matter of hours.
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Your are on the money Slippery.
Remember the Chairman is out of the Resource sector and if we want to talk about conspiracy..... I believe he has used QF to clear the way for his Resource mates. Passengers are better fodder than ore wagons.
Remember the Chairman is out of the Resource sector and if we want to talk about conspiracy..... I believe he has used QF to clear the way for his Resource mates. Passengers are better fodder than ore wagons.
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Yes, agreed that big business can now circumvent pia by pulling such a stunt.
This will only change if the target, in this case, economic damage, is changed.
I'm sure this will probably occur, however, it would be ironic for big business to want this. I mean a central umpire to rule over negotiations to see if it was "fair". Ultimately, this does of course take away control from the participants but you'd have to think that most businesses would want a negotiated outcome because they retain some form of control over the final result, As opposed to none.
I think Qantas may have thought their demonstration of powers could have some how knobbled the fair work act. On the contrary, I think it will enhance it over time by enabling fair work australia to referee in such disputes, without such a harsh indicator (economic damage) to be the trigger, for the umpire to come in, as originally intended.
This will only change if the target, in this case, economic damage, is changed.
I'm sure this will probably occur, however, it would be ironic for big business to want this. I mean a central umpire to rule over negotiations to see if it was "fair". Ultimately, this does of course take away control from the participants but you'd have to think that most businesses would want a negotiated outcome because they retain some form of control over the final result, As opposed to none.
I think Qantas may have thought their demonstration of powers could have some how knobbled the fair work act. On the contrary, I think it will enhance it over time by enabling fair work australia to referee in such disputes, without such a harsh indicator (economic damage) to be the trigger, for the umpire to come in, as originally intended.
Lateline are suggesting that a FWA arbitration ruling would not be able to rule on the union requests for job guarentees. If this turns out to be correct then this is a masterstroke by qf. They have forced the issues kmowing that if they cant negotiate a deal then a arbitrated contract will always go against what the unions want
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How many Qantas employees hold Qantas shares and what is the % of the total shareholding ?
If all Qantas employees went out and bought $15,000 worth of shares you would hold over 300 million shares , bigger than any single institutional investor
154,926,282 (6.84%) Capital Group Companies Inc
171,298,307 (7.56%) Commonwealth Bank Group
115,135,358 (5.08%) Westpac Banking Corporation
183,766,868 (8.11%) Balanced Equity Management Pty Ltd
114,301,097 (5.05%) National Australia Bank Limited
202,442,206 (8.94%) Franklin Resources, Inc and its affiliates
If all Qantas employees went out and bought $15,000 worth of shares you would hold over 300 million shares , bigger than any single institutional investor
154,926,282 (6.84%) Capital Group Companies Inc
171,298,307 (7.56%) Commonwealth Bank Group
115,135,358 (5.08%) Westpac Banking Corporation
183,766,868 (8.11%) Balanced Equity Management Pty Ltd
114,301,097 (5.05%) National Australia Bank Limited
202,442,206 (8.94%) Franklin Resources, Inc and its affiliates
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BHP or any number of large businesses operating in Australia could do the same thing tomorrow - shut down their entire Australian operations because of a little PIA, economy looks like it could be damaged - and BINGO! - FWA by application (or Julia directly) roll over in a matter of hours.
And another thing while I am at it, note 117,565 votes for the SMH poll today, that's a huge amount of votes for a poll like this. One of the biggest I have seen from the smh. The force is with you, more than it probably feels at the moment. more soon.
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I googled it QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED (QAN) - Company Profile
It should also be in the last annual report and other company documents
Qantas Board of Directors
There's not much sympathy to be found with this board of Directors (one is my former indirect boss in a former life), I'm surprised there isn't more staff from within that have come up though the ranks of the company.
A great group of directors if you want to part out and sell an airline , they'll even be able to refer work to their former firms.
I'm surprised General Cosgrove as a high profile and respected figure hasn't jumped in to defend the CEO or perhaps he didn't agree and has been muzzled
Perhaps the way forward is to start buying a sizeable chunk of the airline back into staff hands.
.
It should also be in the last annual report and other company documents
Qantas Board of Directors
There's not much sympathy to be found with this board of Directors (one is my former indirect boss in a former life), I'm surprised there isn't more staff from within that have come up though the ranks of the company.
A great group of directors if you want to part out and sell an airline , they'll even be able to refer work to their former firms.
I'm surprised General Cosgrove as a high profile and respected figure hasn't jumped in to defend the CEO or perhaps he didn't agree and has been muzzled
Perhaps the way forward is to start buying a sizeable chunk of the airline back into staff hands.
.
Last edited by aseanaero; 31st Oct 2011 at 15:01.
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Alan Joyce has crossed the line in underestimating the loyalty of Australians to one another-as a foreign national.
If you mess with one of us, you have done so with all.
It might be time to look at "greener" pastures from which you came, Sir!
If you mess with one of us, you have done so with all.
It might be time to look at "greener" pastures from which you came, Sir!
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The only solution now is to bring onboard a CEO that knows how to extract the best from his staff and find a Chairman who has a passion for putting this company back on top, instead of spending his well paid time annilating eveyone who doesn't seem to share his views
Dream on ! You guys live in lala land. Very surprising when so many of your countrymen live and work for the Middle and Far East competition.
I just watch the LateLine segment wit Cpt Jackson. Ehhhhhhhhh, Hemmmmmmmmmmmmmm, not about money, hummmmmmmmmmm, I mean money.
What is it about ???? If I'm so bold as to ask ??
The best bit : Jetstar pilots in some cases make more money than Qantas. Good one !
Look at the market reaction. QF share up 4% after the lock out. That's the amount of support you boys are getting.
I find it facinating that after all these years of Dixon and Joyce rising, you were able to think that a forever indsutrial action wouldn't be met with some tough reaction.
good luck
Last edited by Me Myself; 31st Oct 2011 at 16:22.
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Any ideas on why the lady (Company Secretary) who signed the AGM minutes on 28 October
http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/2011102...p8q5jj9jn4.pdf
'retired' (resigned from the position?) today ?
http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/2011103...5mk2hvv3xx.pdf
Keep a watch on the ASX corporate announcements page , this is the one the matters and has teeth legally
QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED (QAN) - ASX Listed Company Information Fact Sheet
http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/2011102...p8q5jj9jn4.pdf
'retired' (resigned from the position?) today ?
http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/2011103...5mk2hvv3xx.pdf
Keep a watch on the ASX corporate announcements page , this is the one the matters and has teeth legally
QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED (QAN) - ASX Listed Company Information Fact Sheet
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Still a bit confused (and I've done a bit of economics).
Simply, I used to fly Qantas (ie last week) 3 to 4 times a week domestically and about 6 times a year internationally and apart from mid-morning and evening the aircraft were FULL (1). I usually check the other international carriers (that I would consider flying on) and they are USUALLY always MORE expensive that Qantas. Add some impressive salaries of Board and Senior Execs (2) and we have a healthy positive. So the 'little people' who are actually fundamental to the airline want some security and even maybe a few more bucks. Is the fare price point right? Doesn't Qantas offer a different product (safety, service, reliability [right!] and the intangibles like iconic etc). So simple Supply and Demand woudl suggest the price is too low. This competing in the marketplace just doesn't wash with me. They are competing and competing strongly otherwise 1 and 2 would not be applied.
Simply, I used to fly Qantas (ie last week) 3 to 4 times a week domestically and about 6 times a year internationally and apart from mid-morning and evening the aircraft were FULL (1). I usually check the other international carriers (that I would consider flying on) and they are USUALLY always MORE expensive that Qantas. Add some impressive salaries of Board and Senior Execs (2) and we have a healthy positive. So the 'little people' who are actually fundamental to the airline want some security and even maybe a few more bucks. Is the fare price point right? Doesn't Qantas offer a different product (safety, service, reliability [right!] and the intangibles like iconic etc). So simple Supply and Demand woudl suggest the price is too low. This competing in the marketplace just doesn't wash with me. They are competing and competing strongly otherwise 1 and 2 would not be applied.