MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.
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Engineering excellence would be restored with onshore heavy maintenance ensuring a viable aviation maintenance industry remains in this country.
I'm not sure the government would go for direct nationalisation of anything ever - it's counter intuitive to their governing mantra for the last 30 years.
But I can definitely understand if the government via a proxy - ie the future fund or whatever became a majority controlling shareholder of an industry in the national interest and still allowed private sector persons to run the company.. just not in an irresponsible way like has been for the last 5 years
freight cartels, apa buyout, offshore of a former government entity buy stealth, nest feathering and now the latest debacle.
But I can definitely understand if the government via a proxy - ie the future fund or whatever became a majority controlling shareholder of an industry in the national interest and still allowed private sector persons to run the company.. just not in an irresponsible way like has been for the last 5 years
freight cartels, apa buyout, offshore of a former government entity buy stealth, nest feathering and now the latest debacle.
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Katter calls for Joyce's head
On Monday 31 October 2011, 9:10
Federal independent MP Bob Katter says Qantas CEO Alan Joyce should be sacked before he destroys the airline.
Qantas has been told to get its planes back in the air after Fair Work Australia ordered an immediate end to all industrial action by the airline and by unions angry about pay and conditions.
All Qantas planes were grounded on Saturday, leaving nearly 70,000 passengers stranded in 22 countries, and the airline had been threatening to lock out all employees from tonight.
But the industrial umpire's ruling means all parties now have 21 days to negotiate a settlement to the dispute.
Mr Katter says Qantas will be foreign-owned if Mr Joyce gets his way, and says he will meet with union leaders later today to warn them not to fall into the airline's "trap".
"I would call upon the [Qantas] board, if there is anyone left there with any sense of brains, that they should have him dismissed immediately before we move into the Ansett-type situation," Mr Katter said.
Mr Katter says he believes Mr Joyce is preparing to sack thousands of workers and ship their jobs overseas where labour is cheap.
But David Goodwin from Queensland's Chamber of Commerce and Industry disagrees with Mr Katter.
He says Mr Joyce was forced to make a "desperate decision" to shut the airline down to bring an end to the damaging industrial action by unions.
"They have taken the only action that is going to bring it to a swift end," he said.
"Now that everybody is talking about it and now that everybody is focused I think that Alan Joyce has found himself in the fire, but no doubt he has the support of his board and shareholders.
"Katter's response bears no reality from the perspective of the employer and many of these businesses that do face union action day in, day out, week in, week out.
"I think it shows very little perspective just how hard these airlines are doing it with this sort of strike action floating around."
Go for it 'Mad Bob' !! You get my vote. Maybe you can team up with Nick ?
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This debacle has highlighted the need for the government to regulate the minimum requirements that Qantas must always provide in regards to availability of aircraft to ensure continuity of travel for the Australian public.
Western Governments are not in the airline industry any more and nationalization would have far greater implications to the stockmarket than you would like. It is not going to happen, far bigger unions and industry's have been moaning about offshoring for years, and see where that has got them.
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The Government could easily fix this, any route that is not flown by a VH red tail, could be opened up to competition (deregulated).
I bet the VH registered red tails with QANTAS flight, QANTAS Pilots would be re-instated.
Would stop good routes being gifted to the B scalers.
Perhaps if Mad Bob went his way, the orange cancer would be castrated, right along with you know who.
If QANTAS goes tits up, who owns onestar, the Qlink, Network ?, it will all sink.
I bet the VH registered red tails with QANTAS flight, QANTAS Pilots would be re-instated.
Would stop good routes being gifted to the B scalers.
Perhaps if Mad Bob went his way, the orange cancer would be castrated, right along with you know who.
If QANTAS goes tits up, who owns onestar, the Qlink, Network ?, it will all sink.
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How to hijack Joyce's Hijack
Joyce's hijack as I heard it called was clearly engineered by Clifford - it places Joyce and those mamangers who had the heads up (like those Syd mgrs) positioned in OS ports last Wed & Thursday) in a position that they will NEVER regain and cred or have any hope of being trusted.
That said; it is essential that the focus during the next 21 days remains on proving that Q had no intention of entering into fair bargaining - for this to be effective however there is no room for idiots doing stupid things - whoever you work beside make sure that they understand that one numbat doing something stupid actually gives Joyce the cred he will desperately be seeking.
For Pilots (& CC for that matter) Joyce's reliance on the fatigue factor is a mighty leg up and something that needs to be strategically embraced - esp with proposed CAO 48 amends and more importantly, the fatigue risk claim actually is a sword that should be carefully and responsibly used to put a fence around and challenge the JQ/JetConnect/Chinese Red Rooster work/roster practices. This, if played well, is a powerful weapon.
Suggest we also start a thread/section on the AIPA or save Qantas website to help those in the media that are a little slow and for those poor institutional investors that have their heads so far up a red rats bum that they had choice but to vote up the motions at the AGM.
The site should list on one side 'great Q stuff ups' and the $ lost.
On the other side of the page how it could have been avoided/fixed and the $ saved - upload a photo to back it up or take a pic of the tech log for the ever growing list of things that don't get done.
Also before you write your next post here - write to the pollies, regulators and ask:
1. Why the IASC has been giving Q/JQ 'alliances' a green light to back door Australian bi-laterals through the Q Group's deceptive route approvals?
2. Write to the ASIC and as a shareholder seek the regulator to inititate an investigation to the misleading and deceptive conduct of the Company in statements made to the AGM & the ASX on 28 October, particularly Mr Joyce and Mr Strambi (Strambi holds the AOC) withheld critical information.
3. Write to the aviation regulators requesting details of they how they intend to protect the Australian public from those fatigue factors that Mr Joyce so passionately claimed was a huge safety risk?
4. and...how the regulators propose to ensure the safety of the QF offshore alliances that are already backdooring Australian routes?
5. CASA and the ATSB need to be asked to review Strambi's claim that a risk assesment in mid Oct (allegedly) was adverse and presented to Joyce & Co. Specifically, the regulators need to investigate and advise why was that risk not acted upon and mitigators enacted as prescribed in the Q SMS? According to Joyce's claim the risk was potentially 'life threatening' therefore requiring immediate action. Is Mr Strambi therefore a suitable person to hold the AOC's given the facts presented to FWA suggest that he failed to act as a responsible person in respect of the AOC & SMS obligations? (lets face it if it was GA they'd be alll over the hangar by now)
6. The various state WorkCover Authorities also need to be asked to investigate item 5 above. If Q's statements in this regard as presented to FWA last night are true - then both Joyce, Strambi and those with knowledge of such are liable for prosecution under the provisions of the state acts.
There are so many areas where Q has just taken the view of "stuff the Govt" - Joyce is not seen as the public saviour - he is seen as being un-Australian and deceptive.
In the most professional way possible we all need to make sure that every Q employee stands proud, remains 110% professional - and engages with the public. A simple smile or hello walking through the terminal - a simple "thanks for your support" in casual conversations are also musts.
We also must keep those few nutters amongst us on a short lead and like never before stay united.
My view anyway
AT
That said; it is essential that the focus during the next 21 days remains on proving that Q had no intention of entering into fair bargaining - for this to be effective however there is no room for idiots doing stupid things - whoever you work beside make sure that they understand that one numbat doing something stupid actually gives Joyce the cred he will desperately be seeking.
For Pilots (& CC for that matter) Joyce's reliance on the fatigue factor is a mighty leg up and something that needs to be strategically embraced - esp with proposed CAO 48 amends and more importantly, the fatigue risk claim actually is a sword that should be carefully and responsibly used to put a fence around and challenge the JQ/JetConnect/Chinese Red Rooster work/roster practices. This, if played well, is a powerful weapon.
Suggest we also start a thread/section on the AIPA or save Qantas website to help those in the media that are a little slow and for those poor institutional investors that have their heads so far up a red rats bum that they had choice but to vote up the motions at the AGM.
The site should list on one side 'great Q stuff ups' and the $ lost.
On the other side of the page how it could have been avoided/fixed and the $ saved - upload a photo to back it up or take a pic of the tech log for the ever growing list of things that don't get done.
Also before you write your next post here - write to the pollies, regulators and ask:
1. Why the IASC has been giving Q/JQ 'alliances' a green light to back door Australian bi-laterals through the Q Group's deceptive route approvals?
2. Write to the ASIC and as a shareholder seek the regulator to inititate an investigation to the misleading and deceptive conduct of the Company in statements made to the AGM & the ASX on 28 October, particularly Mr Joyce and Mr Strambi (Strambi holds the AOC) withheld critical information.
3. Write to the aviation regulators requesting details of they how they intend to protect the Australian public from those fatigue factors that Mr Joyce so passionately claimed was a huge safety risk?
4. and...how the regulators propose to ensure the safety of the QF offshore alliances that are already backdooring Australian routes?
5. CASA and the ATSB need to be asked to review Strambi's claim that a risk assesment in mid Oct (allegedly) was adverse and presented to Joyce & Co. Specifically, the regulators need to investigate and advise why was that risk not acted upon and mitigators enacted as prescribed in the Q SMS? According to Joyce's claim the risk was potentially 'life threatening' therefore requiring immediate action. Is Mr Strambi therefore a suitable person to hold the AOC's given the facts presented to FWA suggest that he failed to act as a responsible person in respect of the AOC & SMS obligations? (lets face it if it was GA they'd be alll over the hangar by now)
6. The various state WorkCover Authorities also need to be asked to investigate item 5 above. If Q's statements in this regard as presented to FWA last night are true - then both Joyce, Strambi and those with knowledge of such are liable for prosecution under the provisions of the state acts.
There are so many areas where Q has just taken the view of "stuff the Govt" - Joyce is not seen as the public saviour - he is seen as being un-Australian and deceptive.
In the most professional way possible we all need to make sure that every Q employee stands proud, remains 110% professional - and engages with the public. A simple smile or hello walking through the terminal - a simple "thanks for your support" in casual conversations are also musts.
We also must keep those few nutters amongst us on a short lead and like never before stay united.
My view anyway
AT
Last edited by airtags; 30th Oct 2011 at 23:30.
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The time is nigh
Over the weekend, during the barrage of comments i listened to, some far more bizarre than others, 2 statements i will remember, as i believe firmly they are weighted in sensibility
1. By Dick Smith (who would have thought)
"How can Qantas compete with Govt sponsored/owned Airlines with total right of entry which is not reciprocated. It is ridiculous and will never be anywhere near a level playing ground"
2. By Webber (cant remember his first name.) " Qantas competitors are mainly Govt owned entities. They do not look to there National carrier to be solely a profit making business on its own, quite the contrary, these Countries look to the Airline to be a conduit to bring passengers to their country to promote investment in their Country as a whole and everyone in that Country prospers to some extent"
The Management that we at Qantas have been subjected to has been toxic to say the least. It has now reached DDT levels of toxicity. i can not remember one engagement survey that was within cooeeeee of the word positive in regard to our Management. We have been mismanaged to within a whisker of total collapse on to many occasions. Anyone who believes that from today we will, as a workforce, go off to work with a spring in our step and a smile on our dial are living in that little place Joyce spoke of recently, cloud cuckoo!!
The Govt has to move NOW to begin the steps to acquire Qantas International. Go back and address the complete pharrrk ups of the past 7 to 8 years and fix them. Get us the 777,s that we should have had years ago. Remove any contact with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 of the current Management team, no forget that, piss them all off. I for one cannot work in an environment even coming close to one of trust and respect with these complete clowns at the helm.
Sensibility has been so rare during the last 7 or so years that i honestly am amazed i can still spell the word.
Senator X also needs to kick off a thorough,deep inquest into the Managerial history and decisions made by them going back at least 7 years and bring the absolute self serving, self indulged, intelligence devoid bafoons that have been in control, and i use that word so so loosely, to task.
The end... it was very close to the end indeed and i am still not so sure we are out of the woods by a longgggg stretch.
1. By Dick Smith (who would have thought)
"How can Qantas compete with Govt sponsored/owned Airlines with total right of entry which is not reciprocated. It is ridiculous and will never be anywhere near a level playing ground"
2. By Webber (cant remember his first name.) " Qantas competitors are mainly Govt owned entities. They do not look to there National carrier to be solely a profit making business on its own, quite the contrary, these Countries look to the Airline to be a conduit to bring passengers to their country to promote investment in their Country as a whole and everyone in that Country prospers to some extent"
The Management that we at Qantas have been subjected to has been toxic to say the least. It has now reached DDT levels of toxicity. i can not remember one engagement survey that was within cooeeeee of the word positive in regard to our Management. We have been mismanaged to within a whisker of total collapse on to many occasions. Anyone who believes that from today we will, as a workforce, go off to work with a spring in our step and a smile on our dial are living in that little place Joyce spoke of recently, cloud cuckoo!!
The Govt has to move NOW to begin the steps to acquire Qantas International. Go back and address the complete pharrrk ups of the past 7 to 8 years and fix them. Get us the 777,s that we should have had years ago. Remove any contact with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 of the current Management team, no forget that, piss them all off. I for one cannot work in an environment even coming close to one of trust and respect with these complete clowns at the helm.
Sensibility has been so rare during the last 7 or so years that i honestly am amazed i can still spell the word.
Senator X also needs to kick off a thorough,deep inquest into the Managerial history and decisions made by them going back at least 7 years and bring the absolute self serving, self indulged, intelligence devoid bafoons that have been in control, and i use that word so so loosely, to task.
The end... it was very close to the end indeed and i am still not so sure we are out of the woods by a longgggg stretch.
The Govt has to move NOW to begin the steps to acquire Qantas International.
If QANTAS goes tits up, who owns onestar, the Qlink, Network ?, it will all sink.
Why do you think Jetstar has an order in for 110 Airbus narrowbody's - they are to replace Qantas.
If QF intl is a basket case, why would the govt want it?
Just jettison any routes longer than 8 hrs and become a great regional & domestic airline.
There are better airlines to fly you to Europe/North America etc 82% of people flying out of Australia say so.
Just jettison any routes longer than 8 hrs and become a great regional & domestic airline.
There are better airlines to fly you to Europe/North America etc 82% of people flying out of Australia say so.
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Ex serviceman view of all this ....
The last QF flight I travelled on was a 707 ( ! ) crewed by civil and military crew (latter under training) on a flight out of Air base Butterworth, Malaysia back to Australia in 1978.
While I no longer reside in Australia I have travelled to Australia several times since with Pac Blue and Air New Zealand .... why .... because I no longer had faith in the organisation from top to bottom .... be that management - out sourcing of maintenance - crew morale.
Branson engages with his Virgin employees .... Fyfe engages with his Kiwi employees .... it is reflected with the great attitude of staff in front office (cabin / check in) or Engine Room (Cockpit) ....
I will not fly Qantas / Jet Star.
You had a great airline ....
I really feel it is over ....
This is a very sad outcome.
Sincere condolences to all the great guys and girls who are affected by the death throes of this once Superb Iconic Airline.
I always felt safe flying with QF in the earlier days .... with good reason .... excellence in training right through all the aspects of the airline from the workshop up.
The cost, Mr Journalist, is the knowledge that Australian workers, in any significant corporation, no longer have any right to negotiate their terms and conditions.
At the first sign of industrial action, the corporation need only shut the joint down and then run to the Government and cry "the economy!", "the economy!"
At the first sign of industrial action, the corporation need only shut the joint down and then run to the Government and cry "the economy!", "the economy!"
Incurable Romantic
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This one's for Alan Joyce who is obviously Leigh Clifford's 'Puppet on a string'
Sandie Shaw - Puppet On A String (1967) - YouTube
Don't give up the fight guys-if you do Qantas is dead in the water.
Sincerely
N'oz
(SLF)
Sandie Shaw - Puppet On A String (1967) - YouTube
Don't give up the fight guys-if you do Qantas is dead in the water.
Sincerely
N'oz
(SLF)
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someone was chasing the link for the decision, which is here [2011] FWAFB 7444 and then the order, which is here PR516214
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Joyce is a patsy for the ones above who make the decisions. His willingness to be front man and possibly take the fall for this will do nothing but endear him to the larger corporate world (taking it for the team!).
Yes he may take a short term hit, worse case scenario out of action for a year or two, then whalla back into the fold somewhere as the guy who took on the unions. That's just the way it is.
Yes he may take a short term hit, worse case scenario out of action for a year or two, then whalla back into the fold somewhere as the guy who took on the unions. That's just the way it is.
How about the human cost. I have been stuck away from home, notified of being locked out, then now told I will go back to work and have lost all rights to bargain. I have been away from the immediate support of my family and feel like I have been violated. My wife is in tears. The CEO's reasoning for grounding the airline was due to a safety risk due to a shock being delivered to the pilots. However I am now expected to go flying and apparently that shock and safety risk has now disappeared. I am ashamed of the CEO and the entire board.