Name that Flying Machine

[fauteuil volant]

Surely everyone knows who was furnish'd and burnish'd by Aldershot sun - whether they are a love struck subaltern or not. Tally ho! :)

[FlightlessParrot]

Surely everyone knows who was furnish'd and burnish'd by Aldershot sun - whether they are a love struck subaltern or not. Tally ho! :)

I was rather surprised to discover that that was her real name. And the locale is, of course, apt too. You are obviously holding back, Armchair of the Skies. I don't suppose it would help anyone else if I were to reveal that the designer wrote a revolutionary book on dry fly trout fishing, designing his flies by considering how they would look from the trout's point of view. A man of quite remarkably diverse talents.

[treadigraph]

J R Hartley? :p

[FlightlessParrot]

J R Hartley? :p
Hardley.

Brevity is the soul of wit, but not appreciated by the board software, hence bloviation.

[fauteuil volant]

I do think that I ought to terminate this agony by saying that the flying rose pergola was - according to the Venerable Fred Jane - designed in 1905/06 by John William Dunne and, in 1909/10, was constructed at Leysdown by the combined talents of Eustace & Oswald Short, Prof. Huntington and Mr Dunne. Reputedly it was the first inherently stable aeroplane. I wonder what became of it. Oh yes, I should have mentioned that it's the Dunne-Huntingdon of 1910.

[FlightlessParrot]

Indeed. It is normally described as the Dunne-Huntington triplane, but because the foremost plane is smaller than the others, it is sometimes called a canard biplane with extreme stagger; it could also be described as a monoplane with three surfaces. After re-engining for more power, it flew successfully.

Dunne's life story, in brief: he enlisted as a trooper for the Second South African War, and was invalided home; commissioned, he went out again, and was again invalided with a heart condition, and turned to designing the swept wing tailless designs for which he is well known. He wrote the book on fly fishing, before turning to an attempt to reconcile the new ideas of time generated by the theory of relativity with parapsychology (which was at the time thought worthy of investigation by serious people); the first of his books on that is An Experiment with Time, which is, although wrong, quite rational and devoid of woo. At the age of 52 he married Miss Twisleton-Wykeham-Fiennes, and they had two children; stories he told them were published as The Jumping Lions of Borneo. The sort of life that makes one feel a little inadequate.

Oh, apparently it really was turned into a pergola in 1914.

[Jhieminga]

Interesting story and interesting aeroplane, thanks! I did look at a Dunne at some point due to the similarity between the swept canard and his tailless designs, but never found this one. Oh well...

[fauteuil volant]

Let us stay in the times of Those Magnificent Men. This one has connections with Selfridges!

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/955x565/selfie_e67c6b316251b2cb5b89de1301abec0b5f97fba8.jpg

[nvubu]

I'll have a stab at a Serge de Bolotoff Triplane 2

[fauteuil volant]

Argh, your revised stab has hit the mark. For more on the de Bolotoff saga see http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=7668.msg33704#msg33704. We look forward to the next mystery from you, nvubu.

[nvubu]

Thanks - I'm usually hopeless at identifying the machines posting here, but I thought that it might be SERGE written on the side of the fuselage, otherwise I wouldn't have had a clue.

My challenges in this thread don't tend to last very long.
https://9suzga.am.files.1drv.com/y4msUEit4j31pfD7MGdx1gq51qpWdy1V4byboGNazN2leY-3-YloVN3ISCca-4KW8dl-9uoa8N0T25UKcPUnH7sg_Q9icO84-cuNIqpHP907WTGoXJeZZ4PGI_w7TrN-1-UXzaqN42af6_kL0GouP0gan3S5bwsU3UFD6VxXlAPaiGBL-RA_eBvDcqwVeUjDdNC_31R3XEOZTjWj0kD05IycQ?width=980&height=756&cropmode=none

[FlightlessParrot]

Argh, your revised stab has hit the mark. For more on the de Bolotoff saga see http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=7668.msg33704#msg33704. We look forward to the next mystery from you, nvubu.

I keep getting 403'd from the Sussex History Forum, however I approach it. I think I've had that problem before. Both with MS Edge and Firefox, and typing in the address as well as following a link. Does anyone have any suggestions, please?

[India Four Two]

FP, the link works for me on a Mac, with both Firefox and Safari.

[FlightlessParrot]

FP, the link works for me on a Mac, with both Firefox and Safari.

For the benefit of anyone else who may have the same problem: I was able to follow the link, and read the interesting material, by using a VPN to pretend to be in England. I was then confronted with a cookies and privacy approval screen more elaborate than anything I've seen before. After accepting the default settings I was good to go. It is possible that the elaborate privacy arrangements object to people from overseas/outside the EU (legacy arrangements)/the colonies.

[fauteuil volant]

It appears that it may be more discriminatory than even you perceive, FlightlessParrot, if it allows access to Canadians but not Kiwis! However I'm glad that you got there in the end. You might also want to take a look at https://archives.imeche.org/archive/engines/serge-vincent-de-bolotoff? (which, hopefully, will be easier of access). I think those photographs must be a relatively recent donation to the Institution of Mechanical Engineers because I didn't come across them when I was researching this subject a few years back.

[FlightlessParrot]

Thank you for the link to the Mechanical Engineers. De Bolotoff seems to have been an interesting character, and presumably plausible.

[Jhieminga]

TMy challenges in this thread don't tend to last very long.
I have never seen this photo before, but it looks a lot like Anthony Fokker's 'Spin' (or 'Spider').

[nvubu]

You are correct, it is his second Spin, with Anthony sitting on the right - from the mechanical engineers website https://archives.imeche.org/archive/engines/955387-anthony-fokker?

Told you that wouldn't last long - over to you.

[Haraka]

You are correct, it is his second Spin, with Anthony sitting on the right
To be precise it is the Spin replica. built in the mid 30's.
On a visit to the Aviodome in 1977 I was introduced to one of their ex Fokker employees who had helped build it.. IIRC was still in existence.

[Jhieminga]

If it is the 1936 replica, it last flew in 1990 at Eindhoven Air Base:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/718x511/spin_1990_9e5ad4f53b5ea3b27373ae1d2f3ae13398f317ed.jpg
Photo from Min.of Defense, coll. Van Beek (https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/foto-s/detail/69ba250e-1934-641b-d8ec-b9555a24dc8e)
The pilot who flew it on that day had some interesting experiences during the flight. The 'Spin' only has an elevator and those small triangular rudders, no ailerons or wing warping. They flew it at the end of the day in dead calm weather but at one point he encountered a small thermal that bumped one wing up and he was probably holding his breath for quite some time while full rudder and the dihedral slowly levelled the wings again.

I'll go and find a new challenge.

Edit, how about this one:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x408/aeroplane_200926_f580770e2d3fad6b3818d5ce86965825f7848502.jp g

[fauteuil volant]

Surrey Flying Services AL.1?

[Jhieminga]

That's the one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrey_Flying_Services_AL.1

You have control.

[fauteuil volant]

Thank you, Jhieminga. Here's another biplane from broadly the same era.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1176x548/dutch_b2fe317e2a22893354a13548b9fd26494d21e06a.jpg

[India Four Two]

That’s staggering! :)

[FlightlessParrot]

That’s staggering! :)
SNURK
The proportions are wrong; it looks as though they inserted the front cockpit, but left the wing attachment points at the same place on the fuselage, producing an ungainly s t r e t c h.

[fauteuil volant]

Is it a biplane or is it a parasol/low wing double monoplane, that is the question!

It's not as obscure as you might think. It even has a wikipedia entry all to itself.

[Jhieminga]

Indeed it does: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volland_V-10

[fauteuil volant]

The Volland V-10 it is. Well done, Jhieminga. Your turn!

[Jhieminga]

Thanks! Let's stay within the same era:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/839x471/aeroplane_201002_835cc65b1d086b47a9125e6a498155bfad25a123.jp g

[teusje]

The Rose Parrakeet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Parrakeet

[Jhieminga]

You’ve got it.

[teusje]

Thank you, Jhieminga.
And on with the next one.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/669x452/1_dxo_eb17b4203a209e223ee0ddab446d62624f52b32f.jpg

[longer ron]

My other half tells me it is a Kensgaila VK9 and she says it was a stinker to identify LOL (I did not have a clue :) )

It was a great challenge :)

Sorry will have to be OH

[teusje]

Well, she was right, longer ron has declared Open House.

[Jhieminga]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/499x348/aeroplane_201008_5a8e4e826a0d171639fef1160e961f7238033a28.jp g

[fauteuil volant]

Perhaps a little help might nudge us on our way?

[treadigraph]

Thought it had a hint of Frati about it - Caproni-Trento F-5 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Trento_F-5). OH if correct...

[Jhieminga]

Treadigraph called it, open house it is.

[teusje]

Let's try this one.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x525/2_1ce072d0be5a3d3fa925993a700fa6969756f68d.jpg

[Asturias56]

are we in the USA?

[teusje]

We are indeed.

[Jhieminga]

Any relationship with the Stolp Starlet?

[teusje]

No relation to the Stolp.

[Jhieminga]

The Jungster II it is then.

[teusje]

That's the one.
You have control.

[Self loading bear]

I almost managed to identify the aircraft in the back.
That would have led me to the same photographer, date, airport and finally the Jungster.

[Jhieminga]

That would have been an insteresting way of getting to the answer!
Here's a new challenge:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x425/aeroplane_241020_931f78ca5153cc34b597a7658827ac5fc7d17ecb.jp g

[teusje]

Alexander A-2 Eaglerock

[Jhieminga]

Full marks for teusje, you have control.

[teusje]

Thank you, Jhieminga.
And on with the next challenge.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/735x413/3_474cdd342e6e8c6bf5aa2910bb31645b92d29b3f.jpg

[teusje]

Maybe a, rather grainy, photo from another angle wil help.
Designed to carry either passengers or cargo, and for short-field operations.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x507/4_27d414a132b1a55cce0bfd4879efd72b7feb0672.jpg

[Jhieminga]

Well... it's certainly ugly, which would normally place it in the French or Russian category, but I'm seeing a US registration.... so I'm confused.

[teusje]

It's definitely US, designed in 1947 and constructed over 4 years to completion in 1952.
The designer built and flew his first design when he was 21, this being his third design.

[India Four Two]

...this being his third design.

Presumably retrograde in the "looks" department! ;) It hardly seems worthwhile putting pants on the main wheels with all those drag-producing excrescences propping up the empennage.

[teusje]

To keep this thread going forward, I think it's time to reveal that it is the Johns X-3 Rason Warrior.
And declare Open House.

https://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/HornDavid/9094.htm

[fauteuil volant]

Here's something that shouldn't tax too many for too long .....


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/528x396/jewel_1e1cc60caab52db9ddfbbecb04b2f0c1f2e1402e.jpg

[Asturias56]

Looks a bit like the Roy Mignet G1 001 - but it isn't - could be in France tho?

[treadigraph]

Any Fauvel in it?

[fauteuil volant]

Asturias56, as to your former statement, it is not, strictly speaking, a formule Mignet aeroplane, although it's evident that this inspired the design; and as to the latter statement, it could and it is.

Treadigraph, there's no Fauvel in it because, as already mentioned, it's closer to the formule Mignet than to Fauvel's flying wing.

I suppose one might describe it as a Mignard or a Cannet!

It's from the drawing board of a well-known name in aviation history who was very precious about his designs!

[Asturias56]

searching these names has taken me t aircraft I wouldn't have believed anyone could ever design - I may never sleep properly again................

[fauteuil volant]

Well, stone me, Asturias56. You mean to say that your search hasn't yet identified this little gem?

[sandringham1]

Im'e not here to offer any identity suggestions but it does look very much like the Whittaker MW9 Plank but with an extra little plank. https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/model/Whittaker%20MW.9%20Plank

[Asturias56]

I get the hints relating to precious stones but that's not getting me anywhere - ruby, emerald, sapphire, diamond, jewel (AND Jewell) ......

Just gets weirder and weirder - I'll never slag off a Cessna 152 again..................

[treadigraph]

Ah.........! I think it has great appeal!

[fauteuil volant]

I did say that it's in France, Asturias56, but you've just listed English words. Now if ....

But do I detect, treadigraph, that you've already found the answer by virtue of having clawed away at it?

[treadigraph]

You've almost nailed it there FV! I clipped a few corners though...

[fauteuil volant]

I feel that I should end the agony - and, as he evidently knew the identity of this aeroplane, impose on treadigraph the obligation to post the next mystery! :D

For those who didn't get the clues, Claude (Clawed) Piel (Appeal) named the majority of his aeroplane designs after precious and semi-precious stones (the exceptions being the Pinocchio and the Donald). That illustrated is the Piel CP.150 Onyx.

I'm surprised that Asturias56 didn't make the connection as he was so close. Had he translated his list into French, I'm sure that the penny would have dropped when he saw the Piel Rubis (ML.125), Emeraude (CP.30), Saphir (CP.1320) and Diamant (CP.60) listed before him - aeroplanes much more interesting than the Cessna 152!

[treadigraph]

It was a new one to me...

I don't expect this to last long!

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/402x284/comp_63e383bb7b3b29d2527e4b1ac7c8a095cac60341.jpg

[Asturias56]

FIAT 7002? I remember it because I think it used tip jets like the Rotodyne..........

[treadigraph]

Correct and correct... I believe the Rotordyne was quite noisy, wonder if this was too...

It was one of several interesting 1960s helicopter designs that appeared in my collection of old Observers' Books that never made production...

You have control...

[sandringham1]

FIAT 7002? I remember it because I think it used tip jets like the Rotodyne..........

Although similar in concept a big difference between the FIAT and the Rotodyne was the FIAT had a gas turbine feeding cold tip jets whereas the Rotodyne had compressors driven by the main engines feeding hot tip jets where fuel was added and combustion took place in the tip nozzle which is why it was so noisy.

[sycamore]

Nahh,this is the revised model,sponsered by `Pizza-Hut`,Uber and `Deliveroo`...There is actually a `Chef` in the rear cabin,socially distanced from `lePilot`,with special ovens(you can see them working in the rear compartment),producing heat/steam through a new turbine and chimney to drive the main rotor and `fenestron`..Fresh pizzas can be made whilst airborne and delivered through the side windows,or in the `handy-snacks` boxes in the cabin....for even cooking ,so the edges of the pizzas don`t get burned if landing on uneven ground,then the small wheel can be lowered to keep the aircraft level......Call your local `Pizza-hut` for an exciting new `taste` ,try the Avtur`,with olives,chillies and double cheese...!!

[India Four Two]

I believe the Rotordyne was quite noisy ...

Er, no! The Rotodyne was stunningly noisy! :eek: I lived about two miles from Fairey's flight-test hangar at White Waltham. I could clearly hear it while it was on the ground.

[Asturias56]

Exactly - probably the noisiest, most headache inducing aircraft ever built. If you're ever at White Waltham ask the older generation who were around then.................

So to the challenge.................

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/436x480/2020_11_11_175936_0ca2870a1e710331d63e75bdc1f080bdf36fdc75.j pg

[treadigraph]

Sycamore if takeaways were delivered like that I might approve of Deliveroo et al - I might even order takeaway occasionally..

I42, I enjoy a bit of understatement... :p

Asturias, I think the Thunderscreech won the Palm for noisiest most headache inducing aircraft ever built...

[Asturias56]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1250x584/cxzcxcfgd_f5a4ad320fe8331739958c49bcd927e1ef387b87.jpg

I think they sold a dozen or so of these

[fauteuil volant]

Either there's no longer any interest in this thread or another clue might be in order! :ugh:

[Asturias56]

No questions indicates a general lack of interest - there aren't many pictures around of this aircraft - all I can add is that is doesn't come from a country with major history of building aeroplanes......
​​​​​​​
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1203x601/dsfdsfsdfdfo_5ecef6ec92cc3df0b172fec8628f488cfe09eeb9.jpg

[treadigraph]

I believe it's the Anahuac Tauro, a Mexican crop sprayer which graced one or two of my '60s Observers.

OH if so as I usually struggle to come up with any interesting images... :{

[Asturias56]

Treadigraph has it - they built a dozen or so - some with a bigger engine

Oddly enough it was an Observers of the early 70's that put me on to it

OH declared

[India Four Two]

Not from an Observer's book. This was a one-off with an incongruous name.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/236x236/screen_shot_2020_11_15_at_23_20_32_fa366cb9dc950d48a416ae65e f44a96623b3bf08.png

[Asturias56]

I've seen this picture before... but where??

[fauteuil volant]

If not for the cabin glazing being wrong, one might say an Aero 45. But that's hardly a one-off or an incongruous name!

[evansb]

Shelton Crusader.

[India Four Two]

Yes, there is some similarity to the Aero, at least in this clipped image. Quite different in its entirety.

[India Four Two]

evansb,

Nice to see you back here. I hadn’t seen your reply when I responded to fv.

You are correct. Also known as the American Gyro AG-4. It was designed by Thomas Shelton.

This video shows its maiden flight, when it had fixed gear. I think it looks rather nice.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JnZWD6H_rfc


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/550x305/b67cc440_c80a_478e_8ba5_c2cf0050dd6d_2de4667892797dd63388f37 672f5de1a1db71f9b.jpeg


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gyro_AG-4_Crusader

evansb has the con.

[fauteuil volant]

As you indicate, from the main spar back it is nothing like an Aero 45!

[evansb]

I am prohibited from posting photos until I have 5 posts. OPEN HOUSE.

[Self loading bear]

I am prohibited from posting photos until I have 5 posts. OPEN HOUSE.

You have got yourselves zapped?
again?

[Asturias56]

Your turn will come Bear!

[Self loading bear]

Your turn will come Bear!

I sure hope not!

I do not know why Evansb has been zapped but I think surely enough not because of his postings on H&N.
Let’s be clear I certainly do not want to start any discussion about that on this part of the forum.

Welcome back Evansb!

[FlightlessParrot]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/662x438/name_that_2020_11_18_140649_cdd000d182d70ed3c505c180c10c29eb 10e836c6.png

Let us try this for an Open House.

[treadigraph]

Is it Antipodean?

[Asturias56]

Its bloody ugly for sure..................

[zetec2]

Something like a grown up ugly Dromader

[India Four Two]

It’s bloody ugly for sure..................

... and not helped by the unfortunate paint scheme.

[sycamore]

Japanese.....?

[FlightlessParrot]

Japanese.....?

You could say that, but it would be debatable.

[FlightlessParrot]

Is it Antipodean?
No, not guilty (nor, AFAIK, did it inspire the Airtruk).

[FlightlessParrot]

Its bloody ugly for sure..................
Well, yes, but this is definitely not its best side. And it came from an ugly time.

[treadigraph]

No, not guilty (nor, AFAIK, did it inspire the Airtruk).

Yep, that was my starting point!

[treadigraph]

Reminds me of the Hants and Sussex Herald on steroids...

[FlightlessParrot]

Reminds me of the Hants and Sussex Herald on steroids...
So I looked that up, and when I saw it had a tricycle undercarriage, I wondered what poor kid had had their tricycle stolen.

Is it time for a clue? Although may people think this aircraft would be a candidate for ugliest ever, it's not so bad, though it doesn't live up to its raptor name.

[fauteuil volant]

Could it be named after the Andean Condor - big, bald and ugly!

[FlightlessParrot]

Could it be named after the Andean Condor - big, bald and ugly!

Has anybody ever made an aeroplane called the Turkey? Or the Dodo--surely there must have been a Blackburn Dodo. But the name of this aircraft was rather the opposite of its appearance. Another, slightly later and very different machine from the same part of the world had the same name.

[fauteuil volant]

There have been some odd avian names used for British aeroplanes - such as the Granger Archaeopteryx and the Alula Semiquaver - but things get better when it comes to mammalian names, such as the Martinsyde Elephant, Sopwith Wallaby, Blackburn Kangaroo, Parnall Possum (presumably the last three were intended for the Australian market), BAT Baboon, Westland Weasel, De Havilland Hyena, Hawker Hedgehog, Baynes Carrier Wing Bat and Armstrong-Whitworth Ape and Armadillo. Amphibians were not left out, ergo the Armstrong-Whitworth Tadpole. Nor were insects (Parmentier Wee Mite), fish (Bognor Bloater) or molluscs (Sopwith Snail). There were even legendary reptiles (BAT Basilisk). And that's just an overview of the British aircraft industry!

[FlightlessParrot]

Well, I had to look up Bognor Bloater to see if someone was testing my gullibility, but there it is, and not even looking bonkers. However, the aeroplane in the photograph was named after a much more appropriate creature, a bird; but a rather ambitious choice if you think of the speed of the aircraft. In what is really more of a trivia point than a clue: the bird which gives its name to this aircraft has been clocked at a speed very nearly twice the cruising speed of the machine.

[fauteuil volant]

Well, that suggests a peregrine - but I don't know of one with that name that looks like the aeroplane in the photograph.

[treadigraph]

That's what I was thinking - was looking at a list of the fastest birds, surprised to see the Golden Eagle up at number two...

[FlightlessParrot]

Peregrine indeed: but don't think English, but a language appropriate to East Asia.

[treadigraph]

Ahhhhhhhh so!

[fauteuil volant]

..... the Manchurian Manshū Hayabusa?

[FlightlessParrot]

..... the Manchurian Manshū Hayabusa?

Indeed it is. The Mark II, to be precise. Less repulsive photographs can be found at Manshu Hayabusa (http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2014/01/mansyu-mt-1-hayabusa-falcon-of.html)

fauteuil volant has control.

[fauteuil volant]

Thank you, Flightless Parrot. Here's something only marginally less ugly!

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x656/floater_7cab7ca255635103a1b6d0f63f280e57513fd5ef.jpg

[evansb]

Looks similar to the U.S. built and designed General Aviation GA-43.

[India Four Two]

..... the Manchurian Manshü Hayabusa?

What were they thinking, naming it after the Peregrine Falcon?

Come to think of it though, it's on a par with Fairey naming their lumbering T.S.R.1 after the Swordfish.

Now here's a vehicle that's worthy of the name - the Suzuki Hyabusa, the world's fastest production motorcycle:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x338/suzuki_hayabusa_action_shot_1544168149_18c32902f157bae172c92 c88d24b11642d87ec50.jpg

The logo is a stylized version of the Han character for Peregrine Falcon:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/191x156/screen_shot_2020_11_19_at_14_23_37_1706a3f5b396bc004c12fc5ca 04d77f2898792c2.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Hayabusa

[FlightlessParrot]

What were they thinking, naming it after the Peregrine Falcon?


I guess they were being aspirational. A closer Hayabusa was this:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x768/image_7c6e9f316e3becf3e93d73319891f2b37d008982.png
Nakajima Ki-43 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Ki-43)

The photograph is chosen to illustrate what they did before Photoshop.

[fauteuil volant]

Indeed, evansb, but one would expect the aeroplane in the photograph to look like a GA-43 when it is a GA-43! Over to you, sir, assuming that you now have sufficient qualifying posts.

[evansb]

Not yet, but darn near.. regretfully OPEN HOUSE.

[Asturias56]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/295x453/2020_11_21_172217_bd84f04147c3a226bc3d1fadb4a61e8763f81ca2.j pg

[fauteuil volant]

General Aircraft Monospar ST-18 Croydon?

[treadigraph]

They named an aircraft after Croydon? Well I'll go to the foot of our stairs...

[Asturias56]

21 minutes - before FV get it - hard to get a picture that didn't give it away I'm afraid - it was pretty distinctive. From Google:-

The General Aircraft ST-18 Croydon was a 1930s British cabin monoplane built by General Aircraft Limited (who were originally Croydon based).Following the mixed success of the earlier Monospar family of aircraft, the company designed a ten-seat light transport, the ST-18 (later named Croydon). Due to the longer-span wing, it was not a cantilever monospar wing but had to be fitted with bracing struts. The ST-18 was a low-wing monoplane, with a conventional tail unit and tailwheel landing gear, and hydraulically retractable main gear. It was powered by two Pratt & It was powered by two Pratt & Whitney Wasp Junior radial engines mounted on the wing leading edges. It had a crew of three, and a cabin for ten passengers, a toilet and baggage compartment.[1]

On 16 November 1935, the sole aircraft (T22, later G-AECB) first flew at Hanworth Aerodrome, piloted by Harry M. Schofield. It performed well, but did not attract any orders, so the aircraft was prepared to establish a record for an Australia to England flight. On 30 July 1936, Lord Sempill, Harold "Tim" Wood, and two other crew left Croydon Airport for Australia. On 7 October 1936, during the return flight from Darwin, navigation errors occurred during the flight over the Timor Sea, and the aircraft made a successful forced landing on a coral reef (Seringapatam Reef). The crew members were immediately transported off the reef by local fishermen, and the aircraft was abandoned.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/524x306/2020_11_21_172700_8621570d2730d4ea8cf2cb57a5147a53f88ca803.j pg

Our French based friend has the con......

[India Four Two]

... navigation errors occurred during the flight over the Timor Sea ...

Some error! :eek:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x529/screen_shot_2020_11_22_at_04_58_06_a9bfc71d39506bd2500da3746 55405288c20d03f.png

[fauteuil volant]

Thank you, Asturias56. The Monospars are always distinctive in their forward areas because, unlike so many twins, the engine cowlings and the nose are broadly inline (rather than the former being aft of the latter).

Continuing with the use of cropping, here's an image that I've cropped to exclude this aeroplane's most distinctive feature.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/575x542/moley_02f08c202d27a3b4b0a5c598a4742119a0fe1fc3.jpg

[fauteuil volant]

Here's an obscure clue. A later version of this aeroplane bore the same name as song written by Mickey Jupp!

[Self loading bear]

That must be either
Pilot
or
Make it fly

[Self loading bear]

After some more searching I think that plane must be named:
“You ‘ll never get me up in one of those”
You’ll never get me up in one of those

I think the Tandem wing Taupin 12?

[Asturias56]

"typewriter

Claggin' on

Boxes & Tins

all seem to fit................

[Self loading bear]

Today I received this rather curious PM from Fauteuil Volant:

Good morning SLB

For some reason unknown to me, someone unknown to me appears to have decided to deny me access to the Aviation History & Nostalgia Board (but not, curiously, the rest of the forum). For that reason I've not been able to respond to the posts, subsequent to my clue of yesterday, on the 'Name that Flying Machine' topic. Thus would you please do me a favour and, by way of a valedictory comment, post that the mystery aeroplane is the Peyret/SFCA Taupin and the Mickey Jupp song, offered as a clue, is 'Cross Country', the Taupin having been developed, post-war, as the Lignel 44 Cross Country. And if you'll do so, that will conclude my involvement with that topic and, in all probability, the PPRuNe forum.

Regards Fauteuil Volant

I do not know if there have been any or previous exchanges between the mods and Fauteuil.
I do not want to start any discussion on that.
I do hope that this is all some kind of error or mistake and that we may welcome back Fauteuil in the near future.

My next challenge:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/794x671/0e2cd295_5a38_4ef6_a5d7_f7dfa68f9c3e_b8e5b696a86e1188c468b54 6cf06dd0324798a0a.jpeg

[PPRuNe Towers]

Don't turn into the over enthusiastic hair trigger posters on this thread. 24 hour rule and same for clues.

Rob

[ea200]

Sorry Rob, I forgot all about that. I have deleted my post.

[Self loading bear]

Don't turn into the over enthusiastic hair trigger posters on this thread. 24 hour rule and same for clues.

Rob

Rob,
Thank you for your message which clarifies a lot.
I understand you have been triggered by the 21 minute response of Fauteuil.
That was indeed quite fast.

Officially the 24 hour rule was lifted by the Mods some months ago.
I understand it is again in force.
I agree with your intention that this should be an international thread in which pprunes from all time zones should be enabled to contribute.

In the last month I personally have PMed one or two Quick contributors to warn them not to spoil the search for others. In these threads one does not get points for the quickest answer.
Each should obtain ones satisfaction by solving the mystery themselves.
If the challenge is so easy that one can answer it quickly, the satisfaction must also be less?
I leave those challenges for others to ponder over as they apparently have not fully understood the clues.

If you feel the urge to post a lot of challenges yourself, you do not have to answer quickly because there are lots of opportunities to post at Open House.

Quick answering and then declare Open House certainly does not help anyone.

Long time contributors will see that I learned some things myself and I apologize for having sinned.

Rob, via PMs I know Fauteuil has understood this.
I think your post above would have been enough warning.
Blocking without warning or clarification will not reach your goal.
I hope you are willing to end the blocking soon?

[ea200]

24 hours have passed so I'll have another (same) go. It looks like it might be a Curtiss model D?

[Senior Pilot]

24 hours have passed so I'll have another (same) go.

To repeat the discussions from earlier this year; the 24 hour rule applies to a new challenge, not to posts answering an existing challenge. The three threads were becoming a spotters game dominated by some UK based members who would turn over sometimes 3 or 4 challenges in a day, off-putting for other PPRuNers around the world.

Thanks

[Self loading bear]

24 hours have passed so I'll have another (same) go. It looks like it might be a Curtiss model D?

Not Curtiss D, but there is a connection.

[Asturias56]

"Each should obtain ones satisfaction by solving the mystery themselves. If the challenge is so easy that one can answer it quickly, the satisfaction must also be less?
I leave those challenges for others to ponder over as they apparently have not fully understood the clues."

beautifully put Bear - its the chase that is the thing on these challenges

[Self loading bear]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1002x720/562eac2f_119d_4f38_ae4b_49a256db99e7_6266de0c22c126114ce35cf 5341d1cb07e166d9b.jpeg

Does this help anyone a bit further?

[sycamore]

Baldwin, Bell, McCurdy, Curtiss, Selfridge ,`June Bug`....1911

OH if correct...

and I have flown something similar from the same era...much respect to those pioneers....

[Self loading bear]

Yes, the June bug.
Flown by Curtiss as being member of the Aerial Experiment Association.
The prints are from the patent application.
On this Graham Alexander Bell was the first
OH called


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1021x1500/ff9f3519_7007_4530_96e7_f8b11f4a61da_3327e365fb63bf956e5128c 9e1f05bd3748edbe9.jpeg

[Self loading bear]

...

and I have flown something similar from the same era...much respect to those pioneers....

While we await the next challenge, could you share your experience?

[sycamore]

SLB, I used to fly /display aircraft of the Shuttleworth Collection between 1974-2000 and flew a lot of aircraft of the Collection,but not all,but I did fly the Bristol Boxkite and the Avro Triplane..It would take me from now to Christmas to `write it up`,as I am only competent at 1-finger typing,however ,there is/was a book written`From Bleriot to Spitfire`,which describes the aircraft characteristics in great detail by Neil Williams...It may be still on sale direct from the SC,or by the `riverside`place...Xmas present...? or maybe someone on here could copy+paste it here...To give a flavour,imagine you really are in a `Fauteil Volant` flying over the countryside at between 20 -45 knots........wind whistling up your trousers,flies in the teeth,deafened by having to run the engine,behind you at max RPM,holding on to a broomstick control column with 2 hands,with minimum lateral and longitudinal stability,marginal directional stability,knowing ,if the engine quits,if you look down between your knees,that will be where you are going to end up.......what a great way to enjoy a calm Summers evening...Great fun...!!!

If you watch a video of a modern `canard equipped` fighter on an approach,or manoeuvring ,you`ll notice the `canard` is working overtime,all by FBW and computers,probably 3,...we did that in the Boxkite.....!!just `by wires,and no computer.....

taken me 45 mins.to write that.....

[teusje]

Let's try this one

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/716x371/guess_5a85be31e5981b5c49ef15bee059618a2bd4ac92.jpg

[Asturias56]

Countryside look European but blue & white often means Argentina....... lets ask if it's European?

[sycamore]

Looks very much like a jUNGMANN with a makeover; Walter/Avia M -37 motor/prop,Cessna gear,revised struts,and tail off another Czech aircraft(Avia ?)......?

[teusje]

Not from Europe I'm afraid. Or Argentina.
The engine is indeed a Walter.

[India Four Two]

The interplane struts are very Pitts-like. Any connection?

[sycamore]

How about the rest of `the Americas,Canada,USA,or S America.....?

[Asturias56]

I keep thinking I've seen this before - a little voice in my head (the one that talks sense) says its American - but what and when ????

[teusje]

It's from the USA. Though there somewhat of a link to a politician from Europe.

[Asturias56]

Looks like a rather neat picture - so I'd guess post-1960?

[teusje]

First flight was in 1973, and still flying until at least 2016.

[Asturias56]

Did they build very many???

[teusje]

Just the one, actually.

[Asturias56]

Ah - looking through names of US small aircraft I came across the "Merkle" - Wiki has it as the " The Merkel Mark II is an American (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) homebuilt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebuilt_aircraft) aerobatic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobatic) biplane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biplane) that was designed by Edwin Merkel and produced by the Merkel Airplane Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Merkel_Airplane_Company&action=edit&redlink=1) of Wichita, Kansas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wichita,_Kansas) in the form of plans for amateur construction. Designer Merkel died on 12 March 2012 and plans are apparently no longer available. The Mark II features a two-seats-in-tandem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandem) open cockpit with an optional bubble canopy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_canopy), fixed conventional landing gear (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_landing_gear) and a single engine in tractor configuration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractor_configuration). The Mark II was intended as a two-seat trainer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trainer_(aircraft)) version as a companion to a planned single-seat competition version. The aircraft is made from welded steel tubing with the airframe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airframe) covered in sheet aluminum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum). Its 25.5 ft (7.8 m) span wings employ a NACA 23012 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NACA_airfoil) airfoil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfoil) and each has a single torsional spar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spar_(aviation)). The standard engine recommended was a 220 hp (164 kW) Franklin Engine Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Engine_Company) powerplant. The aircraft has an empty weight of 1,200 lb (540 kg) and a gross weight of 1,540 lb (700 kg), giving a useful load of 340 lb (150 kg). With full fuel of 18 U.S. gallons (68 L; 15 imp gal) the payload is 232 lb (105 kg)

Don't see no bubble canopy and you say it has a Walter/Avia but I suspect that this is it? I can't see any other of that era named after a European statesman or woman (tho the idea of the Texas "THATCHER" is an interesting flight of fancy.........

[teusje]

You found it Asturias. You have control.
It had the Walter engine fitted in the early 2000's apparently.

[Asturias56]

That was not easy! The problem is of course that with kit builds people change the design a bit - which makes identification that much more challenging - but it does take us on roads we wouldn't normally travel

Have to be OH I'm afraid

[India Four Two]

Aviation journalist Roger Bacon interviewing an Atlantic Baron; "Tell me Captain, why do you only fly in four-engined airplanes?"

Captain Speaking: "Because there are no five-engined airplanes, laddie!"

RB: "Well, actually there are!"


This should be easier than the last challenge. :)

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/850x484/wfm_2020_12_10_49dd3dc979302d59b37b9f23ebe67a7103eec6c7.jpg

[Self loading bear]

Actually the choice is large than I expected!

[CoodaShooda]

I'd hazard a guess at the Zeppelin Staaken R XIV.. OH if correct.

[India Four Two]

CoodaShooda has it - the Zeppelin-Staaken R.XIVa

... a fifth Maybach engine was installed in the nose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin-Staaken_R.XIV

138' wingspan! Adjusting the wing incidence must have been fun.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1050x332/zsr14_3_fdf85226421e475cb74150a91525d1b20d8b130d.jpg


Open House has been declared.

[washoutt]

How do you get about, adjusting a double wing with numerous struts?

[Asturias56]

100 fitters and BIG megaphone?

[DownWest]

How do you get about, adjusting a double wing with numerous struts?

Level the fuselarge, get your clinometer out and start with the port lower..:) Must say, that is BIG. Not done one larger than a DH87 Rapide.

[bafanguy]

I know I'm getting a little older with the occasional lapse in short-term memory but I could swear there was a post in this thread about the Bréguet 763 Deux-Ponts. Now I can't find it even using the search function. What happened to it ?

After looking at some cockpit pix, I was going to ask about the crew make up.

[FlightlessParrot]

After looking at some cockpit pix, I was going to ask about the crew make up.
Standard Air France full face of slap, I think.

I'm sorry, it's been a hard year. And I have the same recollection about the Deux Ponts (perhaps without a hyphen), but can't locate it.

[Self loading bear]

I do not recall the Deux Ponts challenge but We have had contributors who deleted their own challenge after it was solved. But then the replies should still be visible...
Anyway you have at least a possible subject for a future challenge.

As it is open house:
This made my somewhat dormant shipbuilding heart beat faster:

Beautiful craftsmanship in teak and mahogany.
If that would be built today Greenpeace would be screaming out loud.
(and rightfully so).


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/397x289/6dedc1f0_22fa_48be_b18a_2f93e1437c5e_b53d35f4bafd3753076a7bd c4c06afc2f2038bde.jpeg

[sycamore]

Italian...?

[Self loading bear]

Italian...?

No not Italian.

You can see all the wood strips pointing towards the same point. That makes it almost a developable surface like a cone. Took me back to my schooldays in bachelor engineering Shipbuilding.

[Self loading bear]

Time for a next clue:
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/109x162/d9e199a4_9289_4f42_ad1a_ad67fd6fdfc7_c1eb6f50e169e8f065b57e9 003d2f54d22700c10.jpeg

[oxenos]

Blackburn Iris or Perth

[Self loading bear]

Blackburn Iris or Perth

Closer than Italy but not yet the right country.

[ea200]

Hull with no step and distinctive tail plus the tail markings suggests a Curtiss NC.

[Self loading bear]

Hull with no step and distinctive tail plus the tail markings suggests a Curtiss NC.

Now you are much farther away.
The hull had 2 steps.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/404x288/103716c1_9f44_47c4_9d5d_d3d67745a94d_45feffcb52c7e8ba2114e79 2db72b5cb51ce126d.jpeg

[megan]

If I may be granted latitude for intruding upon the competition could any of you erstwhile folk identify this aircraft? Mock up or actually flyable, the story behind it, history, treatment of the aft nacelles seems rather slap dash. Posted here as I thought it would be the best to get an answer. Many thanks in advance for your indulgence.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1608264443_7abf44667cba9f7c074def90e737ab16bd822854.jpeg

[treadigraph]

Seen it recently Megan, think it was a Curtiss lash up from a P-40 fuselage and wings.

[Asturias56]

Is the original challenge French?

[Self loading bear]

Is the original challenge French?

I think we will have a discussion about Countries, Nations and Kingdoms but I may have put some people on the wrong foot.
It is from the country between France and the country of Dumbarton.

[Planemike]

Level the fuselage, get your clinometer out and start with the port lower..:) Must say, that is BIG. Not done one larger than a DH87 Rapide.
Picky, I know but deH 89 Rapide ,,,,,, !!

[Jhieminga]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/748x615/p40twin_16456e381193983498129aae561ddea8d6ef3206.jpg

[Asturias56]

I think we will have a discussion about Countries, Nations and Kingdoms but I may have put some people on the wrong foot.
It is from the country between France and the country of Dumbarton.

short way round or long way round Bear?

[Self loading bear]

short way round or long way round Bear?

You'll take the high road an' I'll take the low road, an' I'll be in Scotland before you.

Lyrics from Marillion/Fish
an English band with (then) a Scottish singer

If you have not figured it out:
England

[sycamore]

Tail feathers don`t match what it pur portes to be.....

[Self loading bear]

Tail feathers don`t match what it pur portes to be.....

That might just be a matter of superposition.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x137/094af767_8cf4_40af_9574_cfccdd908081_6472ef95154143a2fb5629f 4fbe7b97182611082.jpeg

[oxenos]

Felixstowe Fury

[Self loading bear]

Oxenos has it with the Felixstowe Fury
aka Porte Super Baby
(Sycamore was hinting at the right builder)
The only triplane 5 engine seaplane.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x304/7c43e236_49a2_4950_ac42_e56ed684112c_9281d2fde197d248320f012 95b1159b332bfa066.jpeg

[oxenos]

Nothing to hand, so OH.

[India Four Two]

I'll start with canopies and increase the components displayed, as required. :)


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/856x478/roof_2d36ee513138a0b224bdd308160d9fbca74277a9.png

[Asturias56]

Such a fine, state of the art assembly building could only be in the UK, no?

[Jhieminga]

Valmet Vihuri. OH if correct. ;)

[DownWest]

Picky, I know but deH 89 Rapide ,,,,,, !!
Quite right Mike! Getting old....

[sycamore]

Look more like Wyverns`.....

[Planemike]

Quite right Mike! Getting old....
Ha ha.....happens to us all !!!

[India Four Two]

Well, it's a few minutes past midnight on the West Coast and so 24 hours has elapsed!

Well done, Jhieminga. Here are what would have been my next clues:
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x405/fuselage_e4e230b164bd6e9418172c4790a51d4dea2cc270.jpg

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/420x222/complete_3409582c85731aadb4c6116c539e4deb736f1087.jpg


The warehouse roof picture is from the Vihuri Wiki page:

The canopies of the scrapped aircraft remain today as the roof windows of the Kuusakoski metal-recycling plant in Espoo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmet_Vihuri

I had never heard of the Vihuri and stumbled on it by accident when looking for information on the Winjeel. The Vihuri must have been the last aircraft to use the Bristol Mercury.

Asturias, the UK obviously doesn't have a monopoly on this kind of bizarre construction! :E

Open House has been declared.

[UV]

Try this...

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x460/83d48008_18d7_4568_998d_4d69e06bc5d2_2851109ea0afc71ce83b160 45fa6564bddc8dd08.jpeg

[MReyn24050]

Avro Sports Avian with DH Gipsy engine possibly VH-UOB

[UV]

Not Avro Avian

[Planemike]

General Aircraft GENAIRCO....... and likely VH-UOD. It is the first cousin to a deH 60 Gipsy Moth.. 10 aircraft built..(assuming I am correct !!)

[treadigraph]

I think I've seen that pic before and the guy in the cockpit may well be Dr John Morris - who later flew the Monospar to the UK, now to be found at the Newark museum.

[UV]

Planemike got there first!

Tredigraph, your are quite right it is a pic from the Morris book “Two men in a Flying Machine”, which I have just re-read. Recomended.

An up to date pic...


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/273x185/55659e23_46f3_4160_8ccb_807118338e94_3ad871fe85840fa2f809417 083cac92d2a3004c6.jpeg

[Planemike]

Think this the first one I have "cracked"......ever!! OPEN HOUSE !!. Not "techie" enough to load a photo...!!

[Self loading bear]

Lyrics from whaaat???

What claim can they have to a 200yr old traditional (Jacobite?) song like The Bonnie Banks of Lock Lomond?

Writer unknown but I'd bet a £Million their name wasnt either of the johnnie-come-lateleys mentioned!

I was well aware that Fish used the text from an old traditional song.

[treadigraph]

Tredigraph, your are quite right it is a pic from the Morris book “Two men in a Flying Machine”, which I have just re-read. Recomended.

Thought I recognised the pic - my copy is in a crate somewhere while sitting room redecoration is in stasis - I heartily endorse your recommendation and must finish doing my bathroom so I can get my bookshelves back up! A delightful book...

[Planemike]

Planemike got there first!

Tredigraph, your are quite right it is a pic from the Morris book “Two men in a Flying Machine”, which I have just re-read. Recomended.

An up to date pic...


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/273x185/55659e23_46f3_4160_8ccb_807118338e94_3ad871fe85840fa2f809417 083cac92d2a3004c6.jpeg

While we are in "recommending mode".... The April 2007 edition of FLYPAST contains a six page article on GENAIRCO. Apparently John Morris's
son Charlie flew VH-UOD after it had been restored.....as per above image.

[UV]

OH has been declared by planemike.

[India Four Two]

A very sleek flying machine:


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/605x439/wfm20201222_f522ec8b616d0507fe66ecc11ff0ec86a14a5d70.png

[Asturias56]

French? late 20's early 30's??

[India Four Two]

Non, no, no. :)

I'll remove a bit of cropping, that might help.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/646x439/wfm_2020_12_23_55fc16e3de5f6e1f6ee058468fb70b0505775b25.png

[treadigraph]

The fin/rudder is vaguely reminiscent of the Gloster III...

[India Four Two]

Perhaps the Gloster III designers were inspired by pictures of this aircraft. Another similarity is that in spite of the cowling, this aircraft did not have a radial engine.

[India Four Two]

Two built, only one flew.

Unlike the Gloster III, it was never on floats but it was re-engined and became an air racer. It competed in three races and won one.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1477x1125/quiz_3d89449f9c077eba042f56f72c688f1273e8708f.png

[Asturias56]

Are we in the UK in the last picture?

reminds me of Farnborough

[Self loading bear]

Verville VCP
re-motorized with Packard engine
Verville-Packard R-1
The last photo from Etampes France

[India Four Two]

Slb has got it. A very early example of a streamlined biplane, built in 1920. A surprisingly high wing-loading of 14.9 lb/sq.ft., compared with its contemporaries - Sopwith Snipe 7.5 lb/sq.ft., Nieuport Nighthawk 8 lb/sq.ft., Curtiss Hawk 11.8 lb/sq.ft., Boeing PW-9 12 lb/sq.ft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verville_VCP

The picture at Etampes was taken during the September 1920 Gordon Bennett* race, where it didn't finish due to overheating problems. Two months later, back across the Atlantic, it won the first Pulitzer Trophy Race at Mitchel Field, Long Island in November 1920, with an average speed of 178 mph over a 320 mile course, finishing 2.5 minutes ahead of the second place finisher - a Thomas Morse Scout.

The VCP came to an unfortunate end in a collision with an automobile, which is probably why no more was heard about it:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x855/1280px_crashed_verville_packard_r_1_racer_at_wright_field_19 20_d0259fe4e2a4536c08e744ae1058e04af3ec51fa.jpg

https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/tag/mitchel-field/

* If you think the Schneider Cup is ugly, you should see the Gordon Bennett Cup :eek: :


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/180x301/la_coupe_gordon_benett_36b40f07575b67286c4492b66e20c214fc1e4 1cb.jpg



Slb has control.

[Self loading bear]

Thanks India42,

I have also some interesting silhouettes for this challenge:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x447/c788eb5f_5016_4110_80d8_ce8e906e4baf_0e16126914a4cb4ae3bc993 92f0d9ffe3f62205c.jpeg

[Thrust Augmentation]

Jona J-6 (with markings removed)?

[Self loading bear]

Jona J-6 (with markings removed)?
Trust is right the Jona 6
Tilting wing stabilization system
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/256x92/2a7ab1e9_3a6c_430b_80cd_c72ece208e95_93c3d50de69e23244cd3c4f b61c6d9d67c913bac.jpeg

[washoutt]

Tilting wing?? How does that work? To compensate prop gyro effects? Never heard of this mechanism before. Any explanation? Thanks.

[Self loading bear]

Tilting wing?? How does that work? To compensate prop gyro effects? Never heard of this mechanism before. Any explanation? Thanks.

Wiki is your friend
The Jona J-6 was a very unusual design: not only was it a cantilever (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantilever) sesquiplane, its lower wing having a span about two thirds that of the upper wing and having a narrower chord (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_(aircraft)) but, uniquely, the upper plane was mounted to the fuselage (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuselage) so that it could tilt about a longitudinal axis with respect to the rest of the aircraft. The objective was lateral stability; the ailerons (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aileron) were linked to the fuselage (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuselage) so that if the port wing was raised by a gust its aileron was also raised and that of the starboard wing lowered, automatically correcting the roll.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/845x1390/4784ac8c_d4c9_415c_bcb6_6135bc06bb63_608c4c8696829bc478cb3ab 3a70f99bcfc086508.jpeg

[FlightlessParrot]

That aeroplane looks like a dog that has just been shown a card trick. When I read about it, it sounded like an odd idea, but seeing those photographs makes it look totally bonkers.

[Self loading bear]

Jona J-6 (with markings removed)?

Trust send me a PM that he has some access problems.
We will wait for that to be solved or I will perhaps forward his challenge.

[Self loading bear]

Trust send me a PM that he has some access problems.
We will wait for that to be solved or I will perhaps forward his challenge.

Trust has not yet solved his access problems.
He suggested that I would post another challenge.
I prefer to declare open house.

[Asturias56]

He appears to have been suspended for some reason

https://www.pprune.org/pprune-problems-queries/637757-locked-out-aviation-history-nostalgia.html#post10957300

[washoutt]

Ah, I punched "tiltwing" i.l.o "tilting wing" in Wikipedia and only got the Hiller X-18.
I always thought to compensate for asymmetric gusts, you put dihedral to the wings. Or reacting ailerons as in the B-2. Not a tilting wing with reacting ailerons. Very complex indeed.

[India Four Two]

Here's an easy one to keep things rolling. Look what I discovered while beach combing on my tropical island:


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/937x557/wa_2021_01_02_27025e1224a19b9b9f66c8df0e1394f53b3f2ff3.jpg

[Asturias56]

N Hemisphere or Southern hemisphere?

[India Four Two]

North of the Equator.

[Planemike]

Fairchild Packet......Not sure of the military des....

[treadigraph]

I'm think I'm turning Japanese?

[Asturias56]

yes - something like a Kawanishi 8K??

[Asturias56]

I'm pretty sure it is this "Emily" in Makin Lagoon

https://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/h8k/makin/1980/boat2.html

https://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/h8k/makin.html



Aircraft History
Built by Kawanishi. Delivered to the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) as Type 2 Flying Boat (H8K2 Emily). Assigned to an unknown Kokutai. Painted with green upper surfaces and gray lower surfacesWartime History
On September 18, 1943 moored in Makin Lagoon (https://pacificwrecks.com/provinces/kiribati_makin_lagoon.html) at King's Wharf at Makin Island (https://pacificwrecks.com/provinces/kiribati_makin.html) and strafed by U. S. Navy (USN) F6F Hellcats and disabled. Afterwards, the Japanese removed the engines and removable equipment.

On November 20, 1943 after the U. S. Marine Corps (USMC) landing on Makin Island (https://pacificwrecks.com/provinces/kiribati_makin.html), Japanese defenders took up positions inside the wreckage of this Emily. On November 21, 1943 M4 Sherman tanks fired at the wreckage to eliminate them.

Wreckage
After the battle, the largely intact front half was photographed wuth U. S. Marines marching by on the beach and looking at the wreckage. Since the 1970s, the nose section is missing. Today, it has collapsed and is lying with the wings on the sand.

Stan Gajda (https://pacificwrecks.com/people/visitors/gajda/index.html) adds:
"High tide goes about half way up the fuselage sides and at low tide you can walk around it. The rear part of the keel is nearby upside-down."

References
After The Battle (https://pacificwrecks.com/reviews/atb.html) Issue 15: page 29-30, back cover

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x320/h8k2_emily_43_2b89f7e392b842c18fa09ff59cca35dcf9723c43.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/250x183/boat_324c8b78fe2306853ea23da98afbb7678f4e4a50.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/550x353/boat2_8f0f5dd9940625f8480f11f6950d8e039d2905f0.jpg

[India Four Two]

Robinson Crusoe has looked at his sundial and determined that a whole solar day has passed and so is able to announce a winner.

Planemike,
I suppose it could be the very rare four-engined Fairchild Packet with the planing hull, but Asturias has it. :)

Emily, the “Sunderland-san” at Makin Island.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1101x854/6e9b12cc_b66b_46c0_bd10_b977ab548e03_1784c95173c8d05eb854a30 294c09534801da387.jpeg

There’s certainly a lot of military history associated with an island I had never heard of before.

Besides Asturias’ links above, this one is interesting:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/us/doris-miller-aircraft-carrier.html

Doris Miller was working as a mess attendant on the battleship West Virginia the morning of Dec. 7, 1941, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. An alarm sounded, and as the ship drew heavy fire, Mr. Miller raced to assist the West Virginia’s fatally wounded commanding officer. He also fired a machine gun against enemy planes.

For his bravery and “distinguished devotion to duty” that day, Mr. Miller was awarded the prestigious Navy Cross, the second-highest military decoration, in 1942, making him the first African-American to receive the medal.



He was killed at Makin Island, when the USS Liscome Bay was torpedoed.

Il mio amico Asturias ha il controllo

[Asturias56]

Grazie I42. - the closest I 've been to Makin Is. is Nauru

Doris Miller is of course to be commemorated by naming the Ford Class carrier CVN-81 after him

Hmmmm - lets try something more pedestrian.... a long way from Makin Island

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/298x283/2021_01_02_160121_6e60bed36adffb9aa33405ef06cb51f8621d2307.j pg

[meleagertoo]

I'll look forward to the reception Pompey'll give the sailors of the 'Doris Miller' if they visit!

[India Four Two]

He was named Doris, as the midwife who assisted his mother was convinced that the baby would be female.

I'm reminded of Johnny Cash's song:
And some guy'd laugh and I'd bust his head,
I tell ya, life ain't easy for a boy named "Sue".


I expect the crew of CVN-81 will use his nickname - Dorie. :)

[Asturias56]

They built over 70 of the Challenge but tin several different models- which superficially look quite different

[treadigraph]

Is it a Klemm/BA Swallow?

Edit: no, huge numbers built!

[Asturias56]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/299x262/2021_01_02_160105_c576bc6463d225f268b8e75e8f4629f7e0c5705e.j pg

[treadigraph]

Eastern European?

[Asturias56]

Far from Eastern Europe.........................

[sycamore]

Seems to be 2 variants,as cockpit shows curved section in first photo,and square in 2nd/side by side.7/9 cyl radial,LH prop,possibly Lynx engine...? Japanese..?

[Asturias56]

Japan is even further away that E Europe I'm afraid.

It had a Wright R-760 I think giving 240 hp.

The builder is still in business

[evansb]

The Argentinian FMA Ae. C.1 ?

The engine doesn't look like a Wright radial, more like an Armstrong-Siddeley radial.

[Asturias56]

Its actually supposed to be an FMA Ae 2 - in various guises but the various versions of the 2 differ so much its hard to tell if they are the same or different to the FMA 1

We could argue forever so I' feel Evans has it - amazing they built over 70 of them pre WW2

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/274x199/2021_01_02_160046_203584b8f0406beb615fe08c5a4187798f0e254a.j pg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/491x242/2021_01_02_160140_83576c16bbd7eb206cc0c1751faad211dc0fc430.j pg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/298x283/2021_01_02_160121_743e2a45db225a8ad08f99ab241ebcb46fac953c.j pg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/299x262/2021_01_02_160105_f49038fed490ee3791dd1e5685a3bd9a3042d1df.j pg

[evansb]

Thank you. The aircraft in the initial photo is indeed an FMA Ae.C.1. I would paste a URL to airwar ru to confirm, but because of my lowly status I am prohibited from pasting URLs, as well as being prohibited from posting a new challenge. It is OPEN HOUSE.

[Self loading bear]

Evansb, life is difficult when pushed in that corner....

Let’s try this one:


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/212x141/918aac20_50e8_44d2_8294_7861561b9ecd_bdc8270172f14bad8fb9774 226d526c449801b77.jpeg

[India Four Two]

Judging by the prop rotation, I'm thinking not North American.

[Asturias56]

get the engine and it should be easy!!

[Self loading bear]

get the engine and it should be easy!!

As a matter of fact the engine type is included in the name!

[Asturias56]

german perhaps?