Name that Flying Machine

[dook]

Hawkeye DRUK has got it.

I don't know why I didn't airbrush out the registration - I usually do.

OH has been called.

[PDR1]

This one may not be British...

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/246x270/fokker_small_72d7bb8b17c03a299a48551cebaabbb710f7da4c.png
PDR

[dook]

That must have a second set of wings. :uhoh:

[PDR1]

You may think that - I couldn't possibly comment...:oh:

PDR

[dook]

flyingmachines.ru

Oertz W6 Flugschoner.

[PDR1]

Image searches makes this too easy!

Dook has the chair

PDR

[dook]

Well, it wasn't too difficult to find.

Had you erased the markings it would have been more difficult.

German, double biplane flying boat.

Someone else put one up.

OH

[Terry Dactil]

It's gone a bit quiet here, so try this one ...


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/837x583/2_small_b4fe608256028a07076fa948350da4c5f581a5f1.jpg

[India Four Two]

Well, that certainly doesn't look like a Fisherman's Bend product! ;)

[Terry Dactil]

Only about 16,000 km away from Fisherman's Bend. :)

[dook]

That must be the Me262 with propeller fitted.

At the time the jet engines were not ready so for airframe testing a Jumo 210 engine was fitted.

[Herod]

I think Dook's right on that one.
From Wiki "Test flights began on 18 April 1941, with the Me 262 V1 example, bearing its Stammkennzeichen radio code letters of PC+UA, but since its intended BMW 003 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_003) turbojets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbojet) were not ready for fitting, a conventional Junkers Jumo 210 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_210) engine was mounted in the V1 prototype's nose, driving a propeller, to test the Me 262 V1 airframe.[27] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262#cite_note-Ford-28) When the BMW 003 engines were installed, the Jumo was retained for safety, which proved wise as both 003s failed during the first flight and the pilot had to land using the nose-mounted engine alone"

[Nige321]

I know this is a model, but I suspect it's a model of a real aircraft.
Any ideas??!


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/930x742/92185443_2811604145554074_3619370177289781248_n_22a8ef3ae693 e1f61e64a7ef845ffdc861b74ddb.jpg

[dook]

Junkers Ju352 (Herkules).

[Nige321]

dook - Thank you! Put me out of my mysery...!

Looks like it's a testbed for a differnt (lighter!) engine...

Update: It's a Ju 252...

And a video of the model flying...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=477SFULt-8I

[Terry Dactil]

Yes, the original challenge was the Me262 prototype when they did not trust the jet engines.
I did not know anything about this until stumbling across this in a video recently.
Dook has control

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1570x1009/me262_prototype_c91106423d616f357ec1502366d59e1442a51766.jpg

[dook]

Thank you TD.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/589x279/fri_f60b693892f6c803f4896af51dcd5b0382de7ca1.jpg

[MReyn24050]

Well 24 hours no takers. I say it is Capt R H Stocken's glider No 27 taking part in the Daily Mail Glider Compeition in 1922 at Itford Hill East Sussex.

[dook]

Now that MReyn has given the game away is anyone going to name the aircraft ?

[fauteuil volant]

I wonder if the good captain had French connections and wanted Airdisco to name it either Fi-fi or Pi-pi, rather than the rather latinised spelling? :hmm:

[dook]

I think he did.

Your Thread.

[MReyn24050]

Now that MReyn has given the game away is anyone going to name the aircraft ?
It was not my intention to give the game away. I found the photograph of Capt R H Stocken's glider at the Daily Mail Glider Competition at Itford Hill and in the photograph it was numbered 27 there was no reference to the craft's name. If that was not what you were looking for then I would have expected you to say that my answer was not what you were looking for and requested the aircraft's name.. .

[dook]

Well, the title of this thread is Name that Flying Machine.

The name of the aircraft was Aircraft Disposal Company Monoplane Phi-Phi.

I would have accepted Ph-Phi.

[dook]

……
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/514x592/capture_331862551a8c60e68a35d091224395d4fd7a922c.jpg

[fauteuil volant]

My contribution was peripheral. Mreyn24050 identified the glider. As far as I'm concerned, he has control.

[dook]

Your prerogative.

MReyn has the helm.

[MReyn24050]

My contribution was peripheral. Mreyn24050 identified the glider. As far as I'm concerned, he has control.
Thank you fauteuil volant but dook is correct the name of the game is "Name that Flying Machine" therefore the honour id yours.

[fauteuil volant]

Very well. In the spirit of the preceding challenge and in order to move on without acrimony, what I would like to be told are the identities of the machines from which that illustrated below emanated and, for bonus points, how much it cost to construct it!


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/519x147/tk_1_e01054c3d33f7caca5f0c1dd642065b55ca0f905.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/564x177/tk_2_6f5f10373c9c4ef392812497672cbf96660dc608.jpg

[dook]

1922 Brokker glider by Alec Gray and W. J. Buchanan.

It combined the wing of a Fokker D.VII with an engineless Bristol F.2 Fighter fuselage.

Total cost 18/6 or 92.5 p.

Did you find that whilst searching for mine ?

[fauteuil volant]

Correct on all counts! Back to you, sir.

The constituent parts of the 18/6 outlay were:

5/- fuselage
5/- wing
8/6 fittings, dope, etc..

Those were the days when you could make yourself an aeroplane for less than a quid!

And in response to your question, the answer is no. The information came from 'The Story of Gliding' by Ann Welch - which has been in my library for more decades than I care to recollect - and my own research, which appears on another forum, concerning the Itford competition (q.v. http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2277.15). If it interests anyone, there is a good deal on that forum concerning early gliding in Sussex and the county's pre-war gliding clubs.

[dook]

Thank you FV.

I don't wish this to be a two horse race so I invite OH.

[treadigraph]

Have a bash at this...

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x393/whatplane_8ccfdd189e9fde2eaedb8f39856a7dc728d4fb40.jpg

I reckon the pilot might be recognisable!

[dook]

Reminiscent of the Practavia Sprite but the front is wrong.

[treadigraph]

Warm - not the final form of this US one-off.

[India Four Two]

Those years of reading Flying have paid off! I recognized it immediately - Pete Garrison's Melmoth. Do I get extra marks for naming the pilot?

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x829/japan_trip_cover_c6c88d19e54152ea0d51608fd499e908cbdd50b7.jp g

Treaders' photo is of the early version, when it had a conventional stabilizer and an aluminium turtle-deck.

Melmoth met a sorry end and Pete had a lucky escape at Orange County Airport:
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x403/wrecked_e4b72beb7709e2f4fa786ff24f491ba1bbf85c93.jpg
The career of Melmoth 1 ended, after nine years and 2,000 hours, at what is now John Wayne Airport in Orange County. I was holding short of the right runway waiting for takeoff clearance when a Cessna landing on the left went out of control and plowed through me. Both planes were totaled, but no one was hurt.

[FlightlessParrot]

SNIP
my own research, which appears on another forum, concerning the Itford competition (q.v. http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2277.15). If it interests anyone, there is a good deal on that forum concerning early gliding in Sussex and the county's pre-war gliding clubs.

Alas, when I click that link I get 403 Forbidden, as also when I try to sneak up on the site by different routes. Windows 10, Firefox, accessing from NZ. Doesn't work with Chrome, either.

[Tarq57]

Accessing the Sussexhistoryforum site no problem, here, also in NZ.

[treadigraph]

Those years of reading Flying have paid off! I recognized it immediately - Pete Garrison's Melmoth. Do I get extra marks for naming the pilot?

Treaders' photo is of the early version, when it had a conventional stabilizer and an aluminium turtle-deck.

Melmoth met a sorry end and Pete had a lucky escape at Orange County Airport:


Extra marks I42 - it is indeed Peter Garrison's Melmoth N2MU, designed around the Practavia Sprite with which he was involved when working for Pilot in the UK.

In 1975 when I was already quite smitten with small aeroplanes and pretty good at recognising most types, a T-tailed, tip-tanked object went zotting across the small patch of sky visible from our sitting room window - nothing in the books like it. A pic of it at Biggin Hill appeared in Air Pictorial later on, ahhhhh!

Garrison bought it over the Atlantic non-stop I think as long distance flying was its goal and he and his wife had some longer adventures across and around the Pacific. James Gilbert and, I think, Manx Kelly had a go at Booker. Following the accident in 1982 Garrison was already thinking about Melmoth II, a redesigned and much improved version of the concept which has been flying for some time and with which he is still tinkering.

You have control!

[DownWest]

Funnily enough, Melmouth came up in conversation the other day. I too spotted it right off. Garrison was asked about the best clothes to wear for long distance flying. He said probably a skirt, except for stepping down on arrival..
DW

[fauteuil volant]

Alas, when I click that link I get 403 Forbidden, as also when I try to sneak up on the site by different routes. Windows 10, Firefox, accessing from NZ. Doesn't work with Chrome, either.

Sorry, FP. I can't explain that. I have no problems using firefox and chrome - but I'm only acessing it from France, rather than the other side of the world!

[dook]

I can access the sussexhistory forum but get messages saying there are images which I cannot access or download.

[fauteuil volant]

I can access the sussexhistory forum but get messages saying there are images which I cannot access or download.

You have to be a registered user to access attachments to posts. The reason for this is that it goes some way to obstructing those who want to reap a harvest but don't want to sow any seed!

[dook]

That's what I thought.

[India Four Two]

treaders,

Thank you. I knew that Pete had been in England, but I didn't know what he did while he was there. I'm envious that you saw Melmoth.

It was designed for long range flights - 580 litre fuel capacity and a range of 3400 miles! He flew Gander to Shannon non-stop in 1975 and then Cold Bay, Alaska to Hokkaido in 1976. Having done a flight, two-up in a Stinson 108, to Oshkosh and back (~2000 nm, 11 hours each way, with frequent stops) and a three-hour solo flight through the Rockies, I can't imagine spending half a day in Melmoth's cockpit.

He has a great website about the construction of Melmoth 2, which includes pictures of Melmoth (1):

Melmoth1 pictures (http://www.melmoth2.com/texts/M1pix.htm)

The site also contains a great blog on the construction of Melmoth 2, starting in 2002 and still being added to as recently as last month. A fascinating read, which I haven't finished yet. It has much self-deprecating humour:

Progress on the intercooler project, which began two years ago, has sped up markedly. One of the reasons for this -- not, I'm sure, a very sensible one -- is that I would like to get the system finished, along with the oil cooler ducting to the new hot-air cloaca on top of the cowling, so that the plane is at least complete, if not clean, in case I contract COVID-19 and die.

Slouching toward airworthiness (http://www.melmoth2.com/texts/Progress.htm)
Read from the bottom up.

It's beautifully written, as befits someone with an English degree from Harvard. How often do you read a homebuilt blog with a title referring to a Greek nymph, that refers to the poetry of A.E. Housman?

The Tangles of Neaera's Hair

The mountains, like the shoulders of indifferent giants, remind me that The Roman and his troubles now / Are ashes under Uricon.


Here's something just as speedy but a bit more roomy:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1720x1141/img_5903_dd05ce6923dbe9742e0914004de3173902c271a0.jpg

[fauteuil volant]

I'd say that's an Airspeed Envoy.

[India Four Two]

fv,

I can see why you might say that, but you would be wrong! ;)

[dook]

The nose glazing looks more like some versions of the Blenheim, but I am not convinced.

[India Four Two]

dook,

I suggest you remain unconvinced.

[dook]

Remain unconvinced ?

How about a Caproni Ca.310 Libeccio.

[dook]

Closest I can get.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x208/bomber_caproni_ca_310_312_libeccio_11_d5204c393d4bd3f31b3ecd 064f4a44a1eed880a2.jpg

[ATSA1]

looks a bit like britain first

[India Four Two]

Yes, the Caproni Ca.310. Not very successful as it didn't live up to the brochure performance.

ATSA1, from head on, yes, but not when viewed from the side:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x545/screen_shot_2020_04_07_at_13_55_42_4874ae5c86cdeba0670b4d184 8263b30c502e99a.png

Wiki says that Caproni were hoping for a trainer order from the RAF, but that fell through when Mussolini joined forces with Hitler!

Here's the only one left, in Norway of all places:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/874x662/screen_shot_2020_04_07_at_13_52_21_47adcb54b9203cd772b40ec17 c80f20695363ec6.png

dook has control.

[dook]

Cheers I42.

Someone else please shoot.

OH

[FlightlessParrot]

Accessing the Sussexhistoryforum site no problem, here, also in NZ.
So it's not the Coriolis force. Rum.

[Buster11]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/961x525/aeron_2_d68e70a4461f241fb583216e43935296d5815a8c.jpg

OK, it's gone a bit quiet, so how about this ?

[dook]

I have been searching for quite a while so far.

Was it an extreme-stagger sesquiplane or a modified parasol ?

[Buster11]

Seems to have been the former.

[dook]

Was it made by Pander ?

[Buster11]

Not Pander. Way to the south-east

[dook]

Is Italy too far ?

[Buster11]

A bit easter (Happy Easter anyway...).

[dook]

Maybe what was Yugoslavia.

[Buster11]

Keep going.

[dook]

Thinking of countries with aircraft industries way back.

Romania ?

[Buster11]

Got it. That's narrowed it down a bit.

[MReyn24050]

I believe it is the Aeronautical Arsenal of Bucharest Aeron Second prototype.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x173/aeron_0758ab05caa374f6517a57f5bcffcfd254b078fc.jpg

[Buster11]

10/10, MR. I haven't see that drawing though. You have the baton.

[MReyn24050]

10/10, MR. I haven't see that drawing though. You have the baton.
Thanks here is the next:-
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x224/pprune40_71b35412d6268a97a9f87aeb0e665baacc9d30de.jpg

[dook]

Grain Griffin

[Self loading bear]

I already thought I recognized that one.
You did the same (other photo) on 7 December last year.
But Dook is the fair winner!

[MReyn24050]

I already thought I recognized that one.
You did the same (other photo) on 7 December last year.
But Dook is the fair winner!
Then Dook has it , sorry about the repetition must be suffering from stir crazy. Wish I could get out more..

[treadigraph]

Drift - that stirred a memory that 40 years ago, someone was building a replica of the Port Victoria Grain Kitten as G-PVAM - it's now listed as cancelled by the CAA, assume the build was abandoned, anyone know more?

[dook]

Did it not go to the USA ?

Next one.....

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x354/friday_fb7f8d6789bbd1f281f5b918265df7bc0c7952e8.jpg

[fauteuil volant]

Britten Norman BN-1F (as rebuilt with a Lycoming in place of the original JAP engine)

[dook]

It certainly is. :)

Lights...music...you're on.

[India Four Two]

Britten Norman BN-1F

I had never heard of this one. BN were obviously working on ugly before they refined it with the Tri Islander! ;)

[dook]

Not exactly a nice looking machine is it.

[fauteuil volant]

Now talking about 'not exactly a nice looking machine', here's a bit of an oddity.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1190x817/img275_df911d887ca7c555e9f5c830f8e5eb044cf4640d.jpg

[dook]

Is it the Lachassagne AL-7 ?

[treadigraph]

Bless you!

[fauteuil volant]

None other, Dook. Away you go!

[Herod]

India Four Two; that's not a nice thing to say about BN's best. I've got a few hundred hours on the Trislander, and it only really had one fault. The heaters in the long-nose version often failed, and we were operating to the Shetlands in winter!

[India Four Two]

Sorry Herod. I was slightly tongue in cheek. I’ve always liked the Islander but have never flown in one.

However the first time I saw an Aurigny Tri Islander at Guernsey, my initial reaction was that it looked as if it should tip on its tail!

[dixi188]

Sorry Herod. I was slightly tongue in cheek. I’ve always liked the Islander but have never flown in one.

However the first time I saw an Aurigny Tri Islander at Guernsey, my initial reaction was that it looked as if it should tip on its tail!
They did at least once to my knowlege.

[Herod]

However the first time I saw an Aurigny Tri Islander at Guernsey, my initial reaction was that it looked as if it should tip on its tail!
We carried a tail-support for just that problem.

[dook]

Next aeroplane.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x311/sat_9c26aedfda39bdddd358c97bc85f32f45b6b1509.jpg

[MReyn24050]

Intriguing. Was the engine a Le Rhone ? The fuselage is very similar to the Nieuport 11. .

[dook]

The fuselage was indeed basically a Nieuport. At the time of the photograph the engine had not been decided.

[Tarq57]

Looks like a Morane, from the pics/description I've seen in Cecil Lewis "Saggitarius Rising".

[fauteuil volant]

If it's French and it has a parasol wing, a Morane-Saulnier is always a good 'short odds' guess!

[MReyn24050]

The fuselage was indeed basically a Nieuport. At the time of the photograph the engine had not been decided.


Just some thoughts. There is something very different about this Parasol, aircraft. The wing looks really solid almost like Junkers J21 wing. The elevators are also large could they be called elevons? The quality of the photograph is poor and would indicate early 1910s yet the size of the hanger would suggest a date later than that.

[MReyn24050]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x461/stemal_iii_4d80f2c6e9e3830a9dcde897f2998a54d94d24af.jpg


Found it. The aircraft is the Malinowski's Stemal III first flew August 1922.

[MReyn24050]

It appears that “dook” is unable to post on the Aviation History and Nostalgia threads at present I have been informed that the challenge photograph is from the Flight Magazine of 15th March 1923, as reported on the Avia DejeVu website, and is of an aircraft under trial by the Aircraft Disposal Co (ADC) Ltd. In the Flight report it is stated that ADC had recently secured a design in which the camber of the wing was able to be varied.

Flight Magazine report:-

“An experimental machine incorporating this feature arrived at the Waddon factory some weeks ago, and we understand that flying tests will be carried out shortly. The machine is stated to have been flown by the original makers, but the A.D.C. desire to carry out thorough tests of their own before finally deciding on the merits of the design.”

The Malinowski Stemal-III (Type-III) was an experimental airplane based on a fuselage
of Nieuport 83 with a mutated parasol high-wing, built and flown in Poland in1922.

According to the Airwar.ru website:- “The Malinowski’s aircraft allegedly called Stemal III , was sent to Warsaw, where on August 12, 1922, Lt. Col. Kossovsky circled it. However, the characteristics of the aircraft were unsatisfactory and soon the aircraft was left on the edge of the airfield and soon became unusable”

I believe the aircraft which arrived at Waddon was the Stemal III.

Open House.

[fauteuil volant]

Here's something that shouldn't tax too many for too long .....

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1506x1004/turnip_5f90629e0f0b77ac8a303de92b242ffecb494c29.jpg

[sablatnic]

It has a bit of that Delgado look, but then again it hasn't - interesting!

[fauteuil volant]

I'm not sure what a Delgado looks like - but this isn't one!

[MReyn24050]

Is it from Italy?

[fauteuil volant]

Nope, not Italiano. It evolved out of a racer that didn't race, becoming a fighter that didn't fight. It was developed before WW2, but the photograph posted is of it after WW2.

[fauteuil volant]

Oh well, it doesn't seem that there is much interest in this offering so I'll bring it to an end. It is the 1939 Nennig C.5, developed from and using components of the Nennig C.3. The C.3 was constructed for the 1935 Coupe Deutsch de la Meurthe, but wasn't ready in time to compete. The C.5 was constructed as a fighter, but it wasn't completed before the Fall of France. It survived the war in the care of Amiot and was restored for exhibition in Bordeaux in 1948. I don't know what became of it subsequently. Open house, please.

[Self loading bear]

Fauteuil,

I was searching by looking for French race aircraft but could not find it.
The various threads are all quite slow.
You should not blame it on your challenge!
Nice aircraft!

[Buster11]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1314x567/avia_bh_6_860cfd74af2d4434e4014df6bc3fe8027eef6c81.jpg
OK, here's another one with its tail on a trestle.

[MReyn24050]

The aircraft looks to be a possible racing aircraft or one built to break a speed record. It is similar to the Gloucestershire Mars.I. Is the aircraft from France or the USA?.

[Buster11]

Neither France nor USA.

[Self loading bear]

An inverted sesquiplane.
Not so many of those.
Looks a bit like AVRO avenger but definitely different tail.
Am I on the right track?
English?

[Buster11]

Not English. Head south.

[Buster11]

Ignore that 'Head south'. The brain cell's clearly under some strain here. Try east from France instead.

[fauteuil volant]

Don't worry, Buster11. I once described the site of a 1920s flying field as being 'south of Brighton' - and wondered why I was met with a very puzzled look - before realising that I had made an unwitting 180º error and wasn't talking about seaplanes!

[MReyn24050]

It has to be the Czech Avia BH6.

[Buster11]

Got it MR. Well done. Passed to you for action.

[Background Noise]

Can I jump in - with MR's permission? This is a genuine question since I don't know what it is. Seen at the side of the road in a scrap yard or 'private collection' in north Texas. Any ideas please...

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1005/screenshot_2020_04_23_at_19_03_21_fd736b97d1f9317e990ceebd4b 1e1bc40566f8c8.jpg

[MReyn24050]

Can I jump in - with MR's permission? This is a genuine question since I don't know what it is. Seen at the side of the road in a scrap yard or 'private collection' in north Texas. Any ideas please...

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1005/screenshot_2020_04_23_at_19_03_21_fd736b97d1f9317e990ceebd4b 1e1bc40566f8c8.jpg
Yes please jump in with your request as the next challenge.

[MReyn24050]

First thoughts were North American Harvard but the windscreen framework is all wrong, Second thoughts it could be a the remains of a Vultee BT-13 Valiant See link;-Valiant Genealogy ? A Vultee BT-13 Returns Home ? Hangar Flying (http://inspire.eaa.org/2019/05/01/valiant-genealogy-a-vultee-bt-13-returns-home/)
.

[Archer4]

Some other options:
Douglass SBD
Brewster SB2A
Vought SB2U

But I bet it is just a Harvard / Texan. All kinds of canopees were used.

[Background Noise]

Yes, I had discounted Harvard for the same reason - that's a likely candidate from the canopy structure. The engine cowling looks different - looks a bit shorter than your picture. Would they have had different engines at any stage. I don't suppose it all has to be the same aircraft. The drop tank, if that is what it is, is clearly different and it may all just be some bespoke collection of jumble.

[MReyn24050]

But I bet it is just a Harvard / Texan. All kinds of canopies were used. I am fairly certain it is not a Harvard.I have searched all the various marks and builds and none match that windscreen framing, The windscreen framing identical to that in Background Noise's photograph is that of the Vultee Valiant. . Background Noise. regarding the "shortness of the nose" the following is answer to that question.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/702x518/valiant_c83da805c537941dd7fd6a48b0eb86c9378a040c.jpg

[treadigraph]

I agree, the canopy is Vultee Valiant...

[Background Noise]

The windscreen framing identical to that in Background Noise's photograph is that of the Vultee Valiant. . Background Noise. regarding the "shortness of the nose" the following is answer to that question.

Ditto, searched all Harvard canopies that I could find and there are many variants but the windscreen is wrong - I think you have it with the Valiant. I realise that the cowling is not where is should be relative to the windscreen, I meant that the cowling itself looked too short vs the radius - but that might just be perspective.

Anyway, thanks for the probable solution.

[Mechta]

Whilst we are on types unknown to the person posting it, can anyone identify this aeroplane?

It was posted on another forum (not in a quiz/competition), but so far no positive identifications. The engine appears to be a British Anzani V-twin.
The original poster said the aeroplane belonged to his grandfather who operated it from various small fields in Kent. The owner worked at Shorts (presumably in Rochester) during the war.
The propeller, still owned by the original poster, is date marked September 1924.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/719x413/unknown_parasol_with_british_anzani_v_twin_5132252e17a31ccdf da7e1fe76c679e83112c2de.jpg
Unknown aeroplane, possibly with a British Anzani V twin.

[Self loading bear]

... I meant that the cowling itself looked too short vs the radius - but that might just be perspective.

Anyway, thanks for the probable solution.

Cowling in the grass looks to be a half cowling and therefore probably of different aircraft.
Vultees had a 2/3 + 1/3 cowling

[chevvron]

Whilst we are on types unknown to the person posting it, can anyone identify this aeroplane?

It was posted on another forum (not in a quiz/competition), but so far no positive identifications. The engine appears to be a British Anzani V-twin.
The original poster said the aeroplane belonged to his grandfather who operated it from various small fields in Kent. The owner worked at Shorts (presumably in Rochester) during the war.
The propeller, still owned by the original poster, is date marked September 1924.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/719x413/unknown_parasol_with_british_anzani_v_twin_5132252e17a31ccdf da7e1fe76c679e83112c2de.jpg
Unknown aeroplane, possibly with a British Anzani V twin.
Possibly taken at the Lympne light aeroplane trials?

[fauteuil volant]

Assuming that the gentleman in the foreground is not a giant, then it strikes me that you'd need a midget to pilot that machine. Even allowing for perspective, the depth of the fuselage, at the trailing edge of the wing, appears no greater than the distance between the gentleman's knee and heel - probably about 50cm. Could it be what today would be described as a large scale flying model aircraft? It might be interesting, Mechta, to enquire of the original poster, on the other forum, the dimensions of the propellor which he/she has and says originated from the machine depicted in the photograph. The propellor dimensions might help to give context to the machine.

[MReyn24050]

Possibly taken at the Lympne light aeroplane trials?
Well going through Arthur Or-Hume's book "The Lympne Trials" I could find no reference or photographs of the aircraft only two aircraft fitted with a British Anzani v-twin are listed and they were an ANEC II, G-EBJO and a Hawker Cygnet I G-EBMB . The OP states that the aircraft was operated it from various small fields in Kent. So presumably it was registered.and possibly around 1924.

[fauteuil volant]

The OP states that the aircraft was operated it from various small fields in Kent. So presumably it was registered

Not necessarily a reliable presumption to make. In the UK alone aircraft such as the Bircham Beetle, Blake Blue Tit, Burgoyne-Stirling Dicer, Camsell Monoplane, Cooper-Travers Hawk, Crawford Monoplane, Navarro Chief, Taylor Wagtail and Worsell Monoplane stand testament to this!

[Allan Lupton]

Well going through Arthur Or-Hume's book "The Lympne Trials" I could find no reference or photographs of the aircraft only two aircraft fitted with a British Anzani v-twin are listed and they were an ANEC II, G-EBJO and a Hawker Cygnet I G-EBMB . The OP states that the aircraft was operated it from various small fields in Kent. So presumably it was registered.and possibly around 1924.
Perhaps it's a Blackburne Tomtit motor in which case quite a number of Lympne aeroplanes have to be looked at - and it's none of 'em, in my opinion.

[Mechta]

I did have a look at the various Lympne trials aircraft over the years, and as Allan Lupton says, its none of them. I can't find pictures of the unfinished RAE Scirocco, which wasn't ready in time though, and is recorded as 'never completed'.

I also had a look for Vauville designs which was the French equivalent of the Lympne Trials, but no luck their either.

Fauteil Volant, the idea of it being a large model is interesting, but IMHO unlikely. Colonel CE Bowden was the most well known power model flyer at the time, and his biplane 'Kanga' had 'only' a 28cc Wall engine. Anything larger would be unlikely to have gone unnoticed by the modelling press. Your list of unregistered aircraft provided a fascinating hour of education. The Worsell Monoplane listed as being at Sevenoaks, looked like it might be a contender, but it was made from Boulton and Paul P.9 bits, which look too large and the wrong shape.
The cutouts in the wing leading edge roots of the mystery aeroplane are a significant feature, plus the very substantial and wide track undercarriage. I do wonder if its is a 'bitsa', but bitsa what?

Buying the V-Twin engine must have been a substantial investment, on a par with buying a Rotax microlight engine these days, which suggest it must have been a serious project, especially as it is claimed to have flown on several occasions.

Do please keep searching. The answer must be out there somewhere!

[vintagemember]

I think the engine is an 8 valve Anzani; the valvegear is wrong for a Blackburne Tomtit.

[fauteuil volant]

Your reasoning is cogent, Mechta, but how do you reconcile that with the apparent scale of the aeroplane? I can't see how anyone of a 'normal' size could get into it in order to pilot it. And if it is a pilotted aeroplane, dating from c.1924, I'm at a loss to understand how the machine could have remained 'off the radar' for nearly a century.

[sablatnic]

Your reasoning is cogent, Mechta, but how do you reconcile that with the apparent scale of the aeroplane? I can't see how anyone of a 'normal' size could get into it in order to pilot it. And if it is a pilotted aeroplane, dating from c.1924, I'm at a loss to understand how the machine could have remained 'off the radar' for nearly a century.

Maybe some slim guy built if for himself - I wouldn't have problems fitting inside it - with the head out the top, of course.
I am slim, ok, but not extremely so, 181 cm tall, 73 kg, and people were smaller 100 years ago than they are today. I don't know what it is either, but it doesn't look like something from the Lympne trials.

[Mechta]

Your reasoning is cogent, Mechta, but how do you reconcile that with the apparent scale of the aeroplane? I can't see how anyone of a 'normal' size could get into it in order to pilot it. And if it is a pilotted aeroplane, dating from c.1924, I'm at a loss to understand how the machine could have remained 'off the radar' for nearly a century.

fauteuil volant, The fuselage does look slim, however as has been said, people were generally slimmer then. I've been in canoes which are narrower than that fuselage, and if it was home built it may have been fairly minimal in terms of seating. There is a good chance that the aeroplane wasn't registered, or may even have been hiding behind a previous registration of re-used parts, in which case it probably wasn't the first or last to do so. If it was built using reused parts, there is a also the possibility that the propeller was being reused from something else too, so the date on it may be misleading at best.

[fauteuil volant]

My comments on size related, principally, to the depth, rather than the width, of the fuselage. Whilst making no admissions as to the assertion that, a century ago, people were generally slimmer, I don't think that the same can be argued for their height and, more specifically, their leg length. But I suppose it can be argued that the pilot may have sat with his legs in a horizontal position - or even that it was flown by a prone pilot!

Are the dimensions of the extant propeller known?

P.s. can you, Mechta, provide a hyperlink to the other forum where first this photograph appeared?

[sablatnic]

According to this people have become around 10 cm taller the last hundred years:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-23896855

[Mechta]

P.s. can you, Mechta, provide a hyperlink to the other forum where first this photograph appeared?

fauteuil volant, here it is:

Mystery Parasol aeroplane with Bitish Anzani V-twin engine (https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=191&t=1864949&i=0)

[fauteuil volant]

Thank you, Mechta. I've sent you a PM in response to yours to me.

[sycamore]

Perhaps if we had `Grandfather`s name it might be a worthwhile area to search...?

[FlightlessParrot]

My comments on size related, principally, to the depth, rather than the width, of the fuselage. Whilst making no admissions as to the assertion that, a century ago, people were generally slimmer, I don't think that the same can be argued for their height and, more specifically, their leg length. But I suppose it can be argued that the pilot may have sat with his legs in a horizontal position - or even that it was flown by a prone pilot!



I had a moment of realization in a museum when I saw the flying jacket of a WW II USAAF pilot. It was tiny. USAAF pilots had to be graduates, so they would not be malnourished. They were just smaller than now. As for leg length, some of us can remember the first Japanese cars that were exported. Excellently made and well equipped, but, except when they made a special effort for export, designed for people significantly smaller than in the "West" (scare quotes because I was in Australia, and hence the South, at the time). Now, not so much of a difference. Even over a couple of generations, people have got a lot bigger in skeletal frame, and this is from four generations ago.

[MReyn24050]

Just a thought could it possibly be a modified Luton LA.3 Minor fitted with an Anzani (British/Luton) 35 h.p. Vee Twin.
Similar to this aircraft https://nelsam.org.uk/Exhibits/Search/?search=G-AFUG. I have been through Arthur W.J.G. Ord-Hume's book British Light Aeroplanes Their Evolution, Develpment and Perfection 1920-1940 and can find no reference to this aircraft.
Alec S C Lumcden in his book "British Piston Aero-Engines and their Aircraft" lists the Anzani engines on page 62. Aircraft listed under the Azani (British) 35 hp Vee Twin are the ANEC I,IA and II; Bristol Prier-Dickson and the Hawker Cygnet and for the Anzai (British/Luton) 35hp Vee Twin the Luton Buzzard I & II , Luton LA4A Minor and the Migner HM 14 Pou du Ciel.

[fauteuil volant]

Although it's been said that the power plant in the aeroplane exhibits features not to be found on a Blackburne Tomtit, based on the limited available evidence I think that it would be a brave man who asserts, categorically, that it isn't a Tomtit. And if it might be a Tomtit, the possibility of a modified Heath Parasol comes to mind. The first British registered Heath Parasol (G-AFZE) - which, whilst registered in 1939, didn't fly until 1949 - was powered by a Tomtit.

[fauteuil volant]

Similar to this aircraft https://nelsam.org.uk/Exhibits/Search/?search=G-AFUG. I have been through Arthur W.J.G. Ord-Hume's book British Light Aeroplanes Their Evolution, Develpment and Perfection 1920-1940 and can find no reference to this aircraft.

G-AFUG was registered as a 'Henry-Luton LA-4 Minor' with construction number WSH.1. The 'WSH' was William Sheppard Henry of Chronicle Buildings, Newtonards, County Down, Northern Ireland. Its given base was Ards Airport when registered in 1939. It's hard to reconcile that with the NELSAM statement that it was constructed by Frederick Brown in Front Street, Stanley, County Durham between 1938 and 1944. However it's interesting to note that NELSAM say that, originally, G-AFUG was powered by a Sumet 'V' twin from a Morgan. Presumably this is a reference to a Summit engine, as manufactured by the British Vulpine Company (which traded as Summit) of Willesden, which was a licence built 1078cc British Anzani V twin engine!

Whilst it is not specifically mentioned by Ord-Hume, on p.403 of his book he says, with reference to the LA.4 Minor, that:

'Several aircraft were built pre-war with engines ranging from Scott Flying Squirrel, Anzani, Bristol Cherub Mk. III, Carden-Ford and Aeronca-JAP'.

As G-AFUG lost its engine before being donated to NELSAM, presumably it's not known whether it had one of these.

p.s. isn't Alec Lumsden's book a tour de force in its field!

[DaveReidUK]

G-AFUG was registered as a 'Henry-Luton LA-4 Minor' with construction number WSH.1. The 'WSH' was William Sheppard Henry of Chronicle Buildings, Newtonards, County Down, Northern Ireland. Its given base was Ards Airport when registered in 1939. It's hard to reconcile that with the NELSAM statement that it was constructed by Frederick Brown in Front Street, Stanley, County Durham between 1938 and 1944.

A number of reports/photos on the Net list the Luton Minor at Usworth as "G-AFUG" (sic), and note that it's also registered as BAPC.97 and has the serial number "FB.1".

While a BAPC number doesn't necessarily imply that it's a replica and not a real aircraft, it could well be that Mr Brown built a copy of the original.

The exhibit was reportedly donated to the (then) NEAM in 1975. The real G-AFUG was de-registered in 1946. If the same aircraft, where did it spend the 30 intervening years?

Coincidentally (or not) a homebuilt helicopter built by Frederick Brown of Stanley, County Durham in the early 1960s was also(?) donated to the NEAM in 1975 and was registered as BAPC.96.

[MReyn24050]

p.s. isn't Alec Lumsden's book a tour de force in its field!
I totally agree with you.

[longer ron]

The propeller, still owned by the original poster, is date marked September 1924.

.

Do you know if there are any other markings on the prop Mechta,this one is really tricky LOL.

[fauteuil volant]

Three days ago Mechta posted a link to the forum where originally the photograph was posted. On that forum there are two close-ups, apparently taken from the photograph when it had been removed from under glass.The first shows the forward fuselage. The other shows the engine. On that forum there has been some debate about the letters that appear to be on the fuselage, just aft of the firewall. Some have suggested that these are part of a registration mark. I've not seen any British aircraft that carries its registration mark in that position. Some have suggested that the letters are 'NATT'. Having looked carefully at the letters, using a magnifying glass, I think that they are more likely to be 'GNAT'.

Putting aside Folland's jet, the only other British aeroplane that I associate with 'GNAT' was F.G.Miles first, abortive attempt at aircraft construction, which was built in his father's laundry in Portslade, Sussex, in 1925/26. Evidently the aeroplane in the photograph isn't that Gnat - it was a biplane - but the thought crosses my mind (and I appreciate that this is a very long shot) that possibly the aeroplane in the photograph might have been constructed from the components of Miles' Gnat after construction of that had been abandoned.

As far as I'm aware, very little is known and has been written about Miles' Gnat. The main source of which I know is Don Brown's 'Miles Aircraft since 1925' (Putnam). In that he says:

'With the help of a friend, F.Wallis, he [Miles] evolved the 'design' of a small biplane known as the Gnat. Having completed the few drawings they thought necessary, they started construction, using as longerons the ash chassis of a small sports car which Miles had been building.'

'At length, the airframe of the Gnat was practically complete except for covering with fabric. A small two cylinder engine of 698cc was bought, complete with a 4 ft diameter airscrew, still in the author's possession, which had been used in one of the aeroplanes built for the Lympne competitions of 1923.'

Broadly the same information is related by Arthur Ord-Hume in 'British Light Aeroplanes - their Evolution, Development and Perfection 1920 - 1940' (GMS). However he says that the engine was to have been a 698cc Blackburne (which strongly suggests that it was a V twin Tomtit). I've looked carefully, again using a magnifying glass, at the close-up, taken from the original photograph, of the engine of the aeroplane in the photograph. Allowing for the low resolution and concomitant lack of clarity, whilst one might argue that it has features which suggest that it isn't a Tomtit it would be a brave man who, based on that evidence, would assert that it definitely is not a Tomtit! Thus that possibility must remain.

Unfortunately I don't have Peter Amos' three volume history of Miles Aircraft and so I don't know if that contains any more information about the Gnat (if anyone reading this has that, it may be worth checking it). The intimation of Don Brown is that, with the subsequent involvement of Cecil Pashley and the acquisition of an Avro 504K, Miles' Gnat was side-lined and eventually abandoned incomplete. So could it be that the engine and propeller destined for Miles' Gnat found their way into the hands of the grandfather of the original poster on the other forum, to be used on the aeroplane depicted in the photograph, and that the propeller, at least, ultimately passed to his grandson ? If so it is difficult to reconcile the grandson's statement, that he has the propeller from the aircraft shown in his photograph, with Don Brown's assertion that he was in possession of the propeller destined for Miles' Gnat (presumably c. 1970, when his book was published). Despite this it would be most interesting to know the dimensions of the grandson's propeller (in the context of Don Brown's statement that the Gnat was to have had a four foot propeller) and how and when it came into his possession (Don Brown died in the early 1980s - what became of his propeller, subsequent to that, I don't know).

[sycamore]

Mechta,can you find out the `Grandfather`s name,and prop dimensions from the poster on the other Forum....?

[fauteuil volant]

It looks as if this mystery is going to remain just that!

[MReyn24050]

It looks as if this mystery is going to remain just that!
Certainly looks that way. I have just received a copy of Arthur W J G Ord-Hume's book "On Home-Made Wings" and hoped that might give a clue but unfortunately not. The thing that strikes me most about the mystery aircraft is the undercarriage. It has the appearance of a sprung steel type. Which may indicate the aircraft was built in 30s. Just a thought.

[fauteuil volant]

I wonder why we've heard nothing of late from Mechta on this topic.

[vintagemember]

Although it's been said that the power plant in the aeroplane exhibits features not to be found on a Blackburne Tomtit, based on the limited available evidence I think that it would be a brave man who asserts, categorically, that it isn't a Tomtit. And if it might be a Tomtit, the possibility of a modified Heath Parasol comes to mind. The first British registered Heath Parasol (G-AFZE) - which, whilst registered in 1939, didn't fly until 1949 - was powered by a Tomtit.

I am a brave man; it’s definitely not a Tomtit. I owned a Tomtit for many years and am well acquainted with the 8 valve Anzani as well.

[fauteuil volant]

Then bang goes both of my theories!

[Self loading bear]

I am afraid we will not get any further without additional info.
When Mechta has more info or somebody else digs something up,
We can always do another intermezzo.

As MReyn has ID the Avia and Vultee, I suggest You come up with a new challenge?

[MReyn24050]

I am afraid we will not get any further without additional info.
When Mechta has more info or somebody else digs something up,
We can always do another intermezzo.

As MReyn has ID the Avia and Vultee, I suggest You come up with a new challenge?
Well try this one:-
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x454/pprune42_859710aa65bc624906ba3da3c773c3b4f55f2bb1.jpg

[India Four Two]

Just based on the prop rotation, European?

[MReyn24050]

Just based on the prop rotation, European?
Yes, she was a European aircraft.

[Self loading bear]

Just based on the prop rotation, European?

Does this imply that on the Southern Hemisphere the props turn the other way around for the obvious reason?
Or has the Corona effect taken a turn on me lately?

[longer ron]

Very important to know when using an 'Armstrong' starter :)

[fauteuil volant]

Aw, Hucks!

[treadigraph]

Or indeed the Hemingway starter...

[Self loading bear]

The strut arrangement is muck a like a Pietenpol Sky Scout.
But that has an American origin.

[longer ron]

I think we might need a clue on this one MReyn :)

[MReyn24050]

I think we might need a clue on this one MReyn :)
From Germany mid 30s

[fauteuil volant]

After twelve days, maybe you should just identify it and put us out of our misery - assuming that there are any of 'us' still following this thread!

[SMOKEON]

RRG Hummel designed by Fritz Stamer of Rhôn-Rossiten Gmbh

[MReyn24050]

RRG Hummel designed by Fritz Stamer of Rhôn-Rossiten Gmbh

You have it. You have control.

[SMOKEON]

Thank you.
Open House.

[Self loading bear]

To take up the Open House

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/725x461/afcf1f9a_671b_4e5b_9a57_d8131baca602_a95369e92ce6c33e2c80de9 9231b4928c1f1efa4.jpeg

[Zaxis]

Airmotive EOS 001 ?


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/300x210/airmotive_engineers_eos_001_c5697e2d3ff4934ba04954efbc0ebe2f f352fe98.jpg

[Self loading bear]

very well done!
the thread is yours.

Airmotive EOS 001 ?


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/300x210/airmotive_engineers_eos_001_c5697e2d3ff4934ba04954efbc0ebe2f f352fe98.jpg

[Zaxis]

Thank you...
It was a fun one to track down.
So lets find out what this is


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x844/untitled_8d4e93bb4582ddc206c8d4e7213054f69c967769.jpg

[fauteuil volant]

Are the engine and the fuselage offset from one another or is that an optical illusion created by the paint scheme?

[FlightlessParrot]

Is that the Polish PZL M-17, known affectionately as "Hairy Dudus"?

Open House if so--I have nothing suitably exotic.

[Zaxis]

It certainly is the Hairy Dudus. Much prettier than its M15 cousin.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x205/pprune4jun20a_a462789903f2c7890e25420f747eca5d37501430.jpg
I'll throw in a quickie. It's a bit of an eye test, driving to a castle in north east England will not help. The ringed plane in the photo...

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/725x461/pprune4jun20_33e87359e81a7d1c8fa7c289a8b7607e77ec7779.jpg

[Jhieminga]

Is that a Verhees Delta?

[Zaxis]

Unfortunately not, it's a bit older than that.

[treadigraph]

Think it's a Dyke Delta.

Didn't some one on here, or maybe Flypast, see a French one visiting the UK last year?

[Zaxis]

Spot on, it is a Dyke Delta so over to you.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x240/dyke_delta_07805c763bfb7b7c81daf0b15ca6c8df49737c2e.jpg

Have to say I think the Verhees Delta is a lot more sci-fi

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x340/verhees_delta_02470a05d0f041ed59daa54cc541b824fbbd5e6f.jpg

[treadigraph]

Have to be an open house...

[Jhieminga]

I’ve been mixing up my deltas :}

[FlightlessParrot]

I’ve been mixing up my deltas :}
I must say I Googled "Dyke Delta" with a certain trepidation, but only aircraft turned up.

[India Four Two]

I knew it was a Dyke Delta but treadders beat me to it! However, his open house allows me to post this "smiling" beauty:


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/512x417/wap_2020_06_05_22e211911066d9190b89d441f15960b5acf883a9.jpg

[dduxbury310]

That would be a Transland aircraft of some description (trusting my rickety memory) from the USA in, I think, mid to late 1950s, intended for aerial application of spray against unsuspecting caterpillars or some such. And that would appear to be a monstrosity of a wing section, and a very broad undercarriage track too.

[DaveReidUK]

That would be a Transland aircraft of some description (trusting my rickety memory) from the USA in, I think, mid to late 1950s, intended for aerial application of spray against unsuspecting caterpillars or some such. And that would appear to be a monstrosity of a wing section, and a very broad undercarriage track too.

From the same designer as the Ercoupe.

[treadigraph]

And that would appear to be a monstrosity of a wing section

Exactly what I was thinking - saw a redwood trunk in half and plane a bit off!

[Self loading bear]

That would be a Transland aircraft of some description ........spray against unsuspecting caterpillars or some such....,.

If I42 requires exact type:
This is the Texas/Transland/Weick Ag-1.
But I leave the honor too Dux.

Dduxbury,
as I have no experience in crop spraying; is there a significant difference in spraying unsuspecting caterpillars and suspecting caterpillars?
I could imagine the latter ones go into cocooning????

[India Four Two]

That's the one. The Ag-1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_A%26M_College_Ag-1)

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x600/43_01_bg_1617890318b1d296199976c98074f417d4aba257.jpg

Designed by Fred Weick of Ercoupe fame* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Weick) when he was at Texas A&M. He subsequently designed the Ag-3, which morphed into the Pawnee. Obviously, Redwoods were hard to come by in College Station!

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x600/43_13_bg_5419b529431ae27b4a7b64187da3beeae6545ad7.jpg

I found these aircraft while looking for information on the Pawnee, in advance of flying my gliding club's new towplane! :)

dux has control.

* PS Fred had many other achievements that are not as well known as the Ercoupe. I didn't know until I read the Wiki article, that he was involved in the development of the NACA cowl - http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1928/naca-tn-301.pdf

[treadigraph]

Well I never! I thought with the Pawnee, Piper had just turned a Cub upside down! ;)

[India Four Two]

Piper had just turned a Cub upside down!

Not far from it! I have been told that the wing is basically a Super Cub wing, with struts on top. It certainly looks like it. The Pawnee's wingspan is one foot more than the Super Cub, which is presumably due to the wider fuselage.

PS dduxbury310 has control.

[India Four Two]

While we’re waiting for dux, I’ll post another obscure one that I just stumbled upon:


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1580x1084/dbe2fd98_9506_4ddb_9879_1c70362b0877_0939882533dc66d28ca93bc fe8173fc61d48f64b.jpeg

[Asturias56]

Look s like Yorkshire to me

[India Four Two]

Trust a geologist to spot the drystone walls!

[treadigraph]

Geographers can spot them too!

Early effort by Yorkshire Sailplanes?

[India Four Two]

The airfield might be in Yorkshire, but nothing to do with YS.

What was the designer thinking of with that nose-shape?

[treadigraph]

Vaguely reminds me of an assault glider!

[dduxbury310]

Sorry chaps, just a looker on this site, afraid have no means of posting images at present. Will this situation result in a dog fight or something? Ah, no, of course not, all thorough gentlemen here!





DDX, there's no reason why you can't post images: you have no restrictions in place from PPRuNe,

Senior Pilot

[India Four Two]

dux,

You can upload images from your device directly to PPRuNe. In the Reply dialog, just click on the picture icon:
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/36x32/screen_shot_2020_06_09_at_23_04_58_33b53ab250ce9fa7ee9c38f03 6dd179d641e486f.png

and follow the instructions.

[longer ron]

Although I have never seen a photo of the glider - I would go for it being the one and only Peak 100 2 seater,designed by Harry Midwood who at one time was chief designer with EoN (Elliots of Newbury).

Sorry but OH if correct.

Edit to add - maybe taken at Long Mynd ??

[treadigraph]

Blimey, excellent call there Longer Ron!

Bit of detective work found another source of interesting reading material!

Page 68-69 has item and photos on the Peak 100 progress:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/5904453/volume-14-no-4-aug-1963-lakes-gliding-club

Many copies of Sailplane and Gliding and other gliding-related material, courtesy of the Lakes Gliding Club.
https://www.yumpu.com/user/lakesgc.co.uk

Think the Capstan was a more attractive proposition!

[fauteuil volant]

More here (https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php?code=2745).

[longer ron]

Blimey Treadi and fauteuil - you did well to find pics of the Peak glider - I failed miserably LOL

[India Four Two]

longer ron has it - the Peak 100.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_100

I found the same copy of S&G as treadders did, at a different URL: http://www.lakesgc.co.uk/mainwebpages/Sailplane%20&%20Gliding%201961%20to%201970/Volume%2014%20No%204%20Aug%201963.pdf

Here are the relevant pages:


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/877x719/screen_shot_2020_06_10_at_11_24_39_f8106528951c124d2921e2c2d 64c688df6f97986.png
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/677x698/screen_shot_2020_06_10_at_11_25_21_8cc8b45a718a56ff26289df78 783c2c219d33607.png

That particular issue of S&G has some fascinating stuff in it - that was the year that Peter Scott won the nationals.

I haven't been able to find out what happened to the Peak 100.

Think the Capstan was a more attractive proposition!

I agree - much nicer to look at and very pleasant to fly.

longer ron has control.

[fauteuil volant]

I haven't been able to find out what happened to the Peak 100.

It became BGA 1140, if that helps to focus your search.

[longer ron]

Many apologies but it will have to be OH

Great find IFT btw - nice to see some pics of the beast :)

[treadigraph]

The Peak's CofA expired in '76 according a book I've got. No other details sadly...

[Monty Niveau]

What was the designer thinking of with that nose-shape?

Errr, lift?

[fauteuil volant]

Many apologies but it will have to be OH

As no-one else seems to want to pick up the baton and run with it .....

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x675/zzz_a6ed18cc1016ee0af40ab480219b33df52be2255.jpg

[fauteuil volant]

..... and there was me, running with the baton, and when I looked around there was no-one else on the track!

[Self loading bear]

I will reach out to take your baton and continue the relay.
Falcon XP?

[fauteuil volant]

Nope, not a Falcon XP. It's a two seat canard designed by a naval architect from Brest. I believe that there are only a handful of them flying.

[India Four Two]

... when I looked around there was no-one else on the track!

We were all busy on computers, trying to find an obscure canard!

[treadigraph]

I just through it was too 'kin 'ard... :ok:

[fauteuil volant]

I won't prolong the agony. The canard is a Flipper-bi, designed by naval architect Paul Lucas of Brest in, I believe, the 1990s. Open House please.

[India Four Two]

Well done, it is not often a challenge defeats the assembled pundits. You can drop the baton and sink gracefully into your armchair! ;)

Even knowing the name, it's not very common on the Internet:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/512x256/flipper_bi_ff67fa04917cc48779be0f9ed8db01e2eb84b037.jpg

[fauteuil volant]

The one in my photograph is for sale, just up the road from me, for 3500€.

[DownWest]

FV, what engine does it have?

[fauteuil volant]

50hp Rotax 503, I believe (although I'm not sure why anyone would use this power plant having regard to the manufacturer's exclusion clause!).

[l.garey]

I find it a nice looking machine. Registered as an microlight (ULM in France), and I see that it sports its radio call sign F-JRPS, although we ULMers are asked not to, as these machines carry under the wing their own series of registrations based on the departmental number where it is registered (eg 25-xx for my local "Doubs"). Curious, registering the radio nationally rather than the airframe. I wonder if anyone knows if a list of these "F-Jxxx" registrations exists.
Sorry to wander off the track.
Laurence

[fauteuil volant]

As far as I'm aware neither the French ULM registration details nor the call signs are in the public domain - which I've always found odd as the CDN, CDNR, CNRA, historique and planeur registration details can be accessed on the DGAC website.

Displaying the call sign on ULMs seems to be becoming increasingly more common nowadays.

What I do find odd is that ULMs display their registration letters and numbers on the underside of the wing but not on the fuselage - contrary to the practice for all other French civil registered aircraft. Is there a reason for this and, if so, does anyone know what it is?

[l.garey]

FV: I assume that the registrations under the wing are to allow easy identification of the ULM should they (heaven forbid) ever be seen flying a bit low. In fact these underwing numbers are of giant size (maybe the large "14" you can see in your photo (post 1458) is part of its Calvados identity). But why the F-Jxxx is not displayed as for all other French light aircraft remains a mystery.
Laurence

[India Four Two]

Here's a nice little twin. I'm not sure that its OEI performance would meet any current standards!

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/402x226/wfm_2020_06_20_dbb3c38f388ea05cd16eba4b2c26e58d98970490.jpg

[fauteuil volant]

Carden-Baynes Bee.

[India Four Two]

That didn't last long! Two 40 HP Carden-Ford engines. It didn't perform very well with both engines running!

The Bee, registered G-AEWC, first flew on 3 April 1937 at Heston Aerodrome piloted by Hubert Broad. Engine cooling problems required a forced landing, and there were immediate comments on its sluggish handling in the air and on its cross-wind taxying problems due to the narrow track undercarriage. This was the Bee's only flight; ...


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/634x511/cb_bee_engine_747_2_354bca19ef92bbd84c27016a40958ee4407aeef3 .jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carden-Baynes_Bee

FV, levez-vous de votre fauteuil et reprenez le relais!

[fauteuil volant]

Thank you, I42. Now here's something that might drive you up the wall!


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/996x582/upthewall_9e521bb2fc6ea96756b21b3355b721706a352a70.jpg

[treadigraph]

I'm sure I've seen a picture of that airborne! German?

[fauteuil volant]

Not German - and if you've seen a picture of it in flight, that's rare because it made only one flight and that was in a straight line (in the trade, a hop)!

[treadigraph]

Not the same machine then - I'm thinking of an air-to-air...

[eckhard]

Belgian, perhaps?

[Herod]

Either that's in a museum, or he was late on the round-out.

[fauteuil volant]

Not Belgian (although I can see why some might think it a Fairey product) nor in a museum (although the architecture in the background to the photograph might suggest to some that it is the Musée Royale de l'Armée et de l'Histoire Militaire in Bruxelles). This aeroplane comes from a well known French manufacturer, although this example was an unsuccessful one-off.

Going back to Treadigraph's post of this morning, I wonder if he was confusing this aeroplane with another model produced by this company which was German (by design and in its original manufacture). Certainly its tail shape might serve to cause that confusion.

[longer ron]

We think it is a Sipa S-50 with a Mathis G8R inverted vee engine of approx 200 chevaux.
Picture possibly taken at the Grand Palais Exposition 1946 ??

OH if correct.

[fauteuil volant]

Then, sir, you think correctly on both counts. The SIPA S.50, the 1946 Paris Salon and OH it is!

[longer ron]

Thanks FV - it was a good/difficult challenge :)

sorry about the OH but I do not have the knowledge to post a difficult challenge!

[fauteuil volant]

As far as I'm aware, very little is known and has been written about Miles' Gnat. The main source of which I know is Don Brown's 'Miles Aircraft since 1925' (Putnam). In that he says:

'With the help of a friend, F.Wallis, he [Miles] evolved the 'design' of a small biplane known as the Gnat. Having completed the few drawings they thought necessary, they started construction, using as longerons the ash chassis of a small sports car which Miles had been building.'

'At length, the airframe of the Gnat was practically complete except for covering with fabric. A small two cylinder engine of 698cc was bought, complete with a 4 ft diameter airscrew, still in the author's possession, which had been used in one of the aeroplanes built for the Lympne competitions of 1923.'

Broadly the same information is related by Arthur Ord-Hume in 'British Light Aeroplanes - their Evolution, Development and Perfection 1920 - 1940' (GMS). However he says that the engine was to have been a 698cc Blackburne (which strongly suggests that it was a V twin Tomtit). I've looked carefully, again using a magnifying glass, at the close-up, taken from the original photograph, of the engine of the aeroplane in the photograph. Allowing for the low resolution and concomitant lack of clarity, whilst one might argue that it has features which suggest that it isn't a Tomtit it would be a brave man who, based on that evidence, would assert that it definitely is not a Tomtit! Thus that possibility must remain.

'Shoreham Airport Sussex - The Story of Britain's Oldest Licensed Airfield' (T.M.A.Webb & Dennis L. Bird) contains the following interesting snippet of information concerning the year 1914.

Earlier the Cedric Lee Company had won a contract to manufacture Be.2c wings. With wages earned from this contract, Charles Gates and another carpenter named Fred Wallis started making their own plane using parts from an ancient Bleriot monoplane, and a three cylinder Anzani engine. They built it in a room above a boot-repairer's shop in Southwick, and later in a garage just south of the railway in Southwick.

It resembled a Caudron biplane, and they got as far as making the body, mounting the engine and constructing the wings. However, they were not to complete its construction as Gates would leave Shoreham to join up as a boy mechanic with the RNAS in May 1915. He had wanted to learn to fly, but no-one would take him seriously at Shoreham, so he just went off and volunteered for the RNAS which offered him some hope of learning to fly. In fact it was to be 1916 in far-off Dar-es-Salaam in East Africa before Charles Gates first flew as an air mechanic.

Years later in 1924, Fred Wallis would help a young Fred Miles build his first plane in his father's laundry in Portslade, using components from the partly completed Gates and Wallis plane.

Now I appreciatethat this refers to a three cylinder Anzani and the mystery machinehad a two cylinder V Anzani, but with the Miles Gnat connection, just perhaps ..... ?

[Self loading bear]

As we have an Open House:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x530/8653e4af_f342_4c0b_a289_f8dd0cfba213_38aae32b43f59881b678684 b1f71eff30a989839.jpeg

[treadigraph]

AgCat, Great Lakes and a hint of Broussard... or Schlepp,,,

[Jhieminga]

Normally you finish building the aircraft before first flight.

[treadigraph]

Normally you finish building the aircraft before first flight.

...and finalise the design before starting to build. That said... I quite like it!

[Self loading bear]

The tail is left uncovered to prevent dust buildup

[DownWest]

AgCat, Great Lakes and a hint of Broussard... or Schlepp,,,
The Agcat referance might have something. There seems little reason for some of the bits (cut off wing tips) and pilot placement, if it was not a working a/c. Lots of space in the middle for spray or dust.

[Self loading bear]

The Agcat referance might have something. There seems little reason for some of the bits (cut off wing tips) and pilot placement, if it was not a working a/c. Lots of space in the middle for spray or dust.

The AgCat is the only right guess up to now.
The double rudder was used to keep them out of the spray trail.

[John Eacott]

Larson D-1 (http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft31514.htm) Duster (1955)


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/562x303/12_3_bca9bd8f3083a093e79e4d12526e22926f657eee.jpg

[Self loading bear]

Larson D-1 (http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft31514.htm) Duster (1955)


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/562x303/12_3_bca9bd8f3083a093e79e4d12526e22926f657eee.jpg

That’s the one. The number of parts only 25% compared to a Stearman.
John has control.

[John Eacott]

An interesting plane with at least two world firsts to this model, plus a dubious (in these days) link to a motorbike :hmm:


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x411/2020_06_25_what_plane_bcb1909de82cf28cc03fb3fb316cc40c97ee6c ff.jpg

[John Eacott]

The motorcycle link was Harley-Davidson brakes: and any self respecting rider will know that Harleys don't go, don't corner and don't stop :p


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1640x1230/2020_06_26_what_plane_ef58af5be03d397549b5925ba2c695e9251499 86.jpg

[Jhieminga]

That would be a Stinson SM-1 Detroiter, the one in the Golden Wings museum (Stinson Detroiter (http://www.goldenwingsmuseum.com/collection/AC-Pages/Stin-Det.html)).

[John Eacott]

Jhieminga there are quite a few variants of the SM-1: ten if my online research is right!

Which one is this and (apart from the plaque shown in the linked series of photos) what 'firsts' did it achieve?

[Herod]

One of the pair that set the AAR endurance record in 1930?

[John Eacott]

One of the pair that set the AAR endurance record in 1930?

First 'first' was the SM-1Detroiter, which was a biplane and the first aircraft with an electric starter :ok:

More models and 'firsts' before we get to the posted Flying Machine ;)

[Jhieminga]

I'll have to pass, I haven't dug into the story of these Stinsons as much as you have. I figured that first Diesel powered flight would be one of them but you stated that there should be two more, including the electric starter. That leaves one or am I missing something?

[John Eacott]

Jhieminga you can take the honours with SM-1 :ok:

The one in the image was the SM-1B (or SM-1DX) which was the first diesel aircraft ever flown, and a monoplane after the original biplane SM-1. The type was also claimed to be the first aircraft with soundproofing in the cabin :cool:

Over to you Jhieminga

[Jhieminga]

Thanks!

As long as we're on firsts, lets try this one. There's a story attached to it.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/553x275/aeroplane_200628_5b700a92764af771a79b76a329cd894272214da2.jp g

[fauteuil volant]

Perhaps a clue might be in order?

[Jhieminga]

It was test-flown from a beach...