What Cockpit?

[Asturias56]

I guess it's something like the Curtiss P1 hawk?

[meleagertoo]

Both correct.
Sorry about the poor pics, they're the only ones I could find.

[Noyade]

Martinsyde A Mk II -?

[meleagertoo]

Aha! The four-place variant of the Martinsyde Buzzard.

[Noyade]

Tis the season for giving.
I give you - Open House.
:ok:

[meleagertoo]

Oh! I do have one!
This unintentionaly aptly named machine was not a success.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/987x650/baade_152_91a802828fd9ac8996a8d515d6857386224b92a5.png

[BEagle]

That hideous device! There were still some promotional items about it lying around at Elbeflugzeugwerke when I visited Dresden about 15 years ago.

Landing gear indicators might be a clue?

[Self loading bear]

Is wasn’t bad. It was worse!

[India Four Two]

Four-gear lights, Dresden. It can only be the unique Baade 152:


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x600/csm_baade_auftakt_f7f5ad5f47_d2eee4ce55bb4391fb1f879934fbf22 671b43449.jpg

[meleagertoo]

India 42 has it.
I really should be more careful, I thought I'd scoured that pic for give-aways.

[India Four Two]

It was Beagle that gave it away - I hadn't noticed the four gear lights!

Here's an easy one for post-Christmas perusal. I expect we've had it before.

"I've never seen so many bleedin' dials!"


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/510x406/wc20221226_94d3648a28c4454300d768d956242b50fe16c6aa.jpeg

[BEagle]

I remember seeing (and certainly hearing!) that aeroplane at the 1969 Paris Air Show!

With all 10 engines running!!

[meleagertoo]

A noble effort from a noble company with a noble heritage.
They made an impressive and largely workable effort but merely 'workable' simply didn't cut it in that arena at the time.
It took a just one engine, not 10 to show the world how.
A lesson no one has recalled or exceeded until quite recently, and even then I await being really persuaded...

Still, I doff may cap to thse guys. They pushed the technology along and with some elegance too.

[India Four Two]

Still, I doff may cap to thse guys. They pushed the technology along and with some elegance too.

and they very wisely installed MB Mk 6 zero-zero seats.

[Noyade]

The nose of the '31 always reminded me of some sort of future Luft '46 machine.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x512/scan1199_0f73802ef2547a0620a104cedde27e0b31000f96.jpg

[India Four Two]

Noyade has it - the Dornier Do 31. I thought the nose was very reminiscent of the He 111.

I don't have access to my copy of John Farley's book 'A View from the Hover', but I bet he didn't think much of it. I wonder how many engines they failed on one side during testing!

[Asturias56]

" I wonder how many engines they failed on one side during testing!"

I suspect none - it would need all of them all the time to get off the ground - I always wondered just how much fuel they had to carry for all those engines............

[BEagle]

Deflected jet Meteor RA490 fitted with two RR Nenes could be flown at speeds as low as 70KIAS. No bang seat, so an engine failure on the approach at 70KIAS would have been.....most interesting, to say the least.

[Noyade]

Thanks Simon - but there were those first on the scene before me.
So, an easy on in return...


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x421/cockpit_57590a3dc6f5f0a35d268ab34941a2a48702b6a3.jpg

[oncemorealoft]

Beechcraft T-34 Mentor?

[topgas]

[/QUOTE]The flap and spoiler quadrant would have been a giveaway! I am intrigued by the markings on the flap quadrant - lift, neutral and drag. Does anyone have a copy of the Pilot's Notes?

Also the Spoiler handle was a surprise. I have not seen any references to spoilers nor in any pictures, particularly in this cutaway:

[/QUOTE]
There you go https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-biblio/fac-similes/Pilot_notes_for_Hamilcar_I_glider_(Air-Ministry_1945).pdf
Para 8 refers to the Airbrake Control

[Noyade]

Beechcraft T-34 Mentor?

That's him! :ok:
Your control oncemorealoft.

It was a Mentor that featured in an episode of The Six Million Dollar Man where the aircraft was fitted with a device that with a flick of a switch - became invisible to radar. Or something like that.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x522/steve_d0c616ba33d29e7f1fb6d1f708c8f277f34e8612.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x454/20221119_214339_29f4aff88476969bac73d24e7442b2e63357057c.jpg

[oncemorealoft]

Sorry for the delay. Open House please.

[India Four Two]

Not much of a view!


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/759x579/screenshot_2023_01_15_at_17_32_48_f538a0672df81775d05f2c9872 2e4e2c6579b595.png

I love the Chipmunk-style mag switches on the left!

[asw28-866]

A second teaser perhaps?

[India Four Two]

A second teaser? Then this one is specially for you, asw! :E


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/693x935/screenshot_2023_01_16_at_10_54_17_0d70fe936726cbf6b046812a46 ca5606fb048a1e.png

[asw28-866]

Now things are getting fishy!

[India Four Two]

You are confirming my suspicion that many glider pilots are TAPs.

It occurred to me the other day that I had never seen images of the rear seat(s) of either of these types.

[asw28-866]

I have seen the latter seat in the flesh at an air-show in the 70's, though not the former. A capital idea to explore some of the other seats in the respective cockpits.

[India Four Two]

Yes, the two-winged master race have been getting too much of the limelight! 😄

[meleagertoo]

Well, the biplane is a Stringbag.

[India Four Two]

Correct. There is a connection between the Swordfish and my challenge cockpit.

[asw28-866]

Its all letters and numbers to me!

[meleagertoo]

D'uh oh!
It's a numerical progression.

TSR 1 and 2.
Incredible to think those two are only separated by 30 years!

Give that one to ASW please, he clearly had it first.

[India Four Two]

Yes, it's the rear cockpit of the TSR-2. The photo I posted was captioned as being a mockup.

meleagertoo, not quite a numerical progression. Fairey built the TSR I which with modifications, became the TSR II Swordfish. The 2 in the TSR-2 nomenclature apparently came out of nowhere. There's an interesting discussion here:

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/22998-was-there-a-tsr1/

asw has the con.

[asw28-866]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/wcjan23_3__68609efa1fb675d0945d0441e1c3d55f3ddf10b4.jpg
I know this will be short lived, I fly a more recent version for work (which is not known for it's ergonomics) and I boggled at the complexity of this quadrant!

[meleagertoo]

Looks like a Beech 18 to me.

[asw28-866]

24hrs has elapesd and meleagertoo is quite correct, the Beech 18. You have control.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/wcjan23_two__7685bff36ecf8fdb75067fbe3daa39ca20c6aa25.jpg

[meleagertoo]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/212x67/screenshot_2023_01_19_at_01_40_11_1094a9c723830d64d4421fe5d9 4ac26bf57b689b.png

[Noyade]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x955/scan1237_cda9e34ff7b58d18a33199fcc65db0425d8b4dfa.jpg

[meleagertoo]

That'll serve me right for postng the wrong pic. The one I put up was the giveaway!

Noyade, would you have got there from this?


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/536x549/general_airborne_transport_xcg_16_04d883c11e70bc1e4d9059f8ab 0d782d04c89f78.png


Anyhoo, you have control.

[Noyade]

Hi Mel.


Noyade, would you have got there from this?

No - not with that photo. I did see that cockpit angle in a colour YouTube clip - but only after my diagnosis of XCG-16.
By all means, post another cockpit.
If not - open house.
Cheers!

[Asturias56]

Been a bit quiet here

try this one

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/342x320/2023_02_01_165259_a69646ea2898f9e32de3642398d45ea596e56300.j pg

[Asturias56]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/380x260/2023_02_01_165227_b496dc0281d260028060b49f25290249ad4826fd.j pg

[sycamore]

Looks a bit `L-29`...ish....?

[Asturias56]

"-ish" is about right - but it's not an L-29. A lot of these were built but it's damn near impossible to find pictures of the cockpits that look identical

[India Four Two]

That green knob on the seat pack looks like the toggle for a bailout bottle, so I presume this is a US aircraft.

[sycamore]

or maybe an `Iskra`....?

[Asturias56]

No - there were trainer versions of the challenge I believe. Lots built but none in the USA - the bailout bottle maybe a reto-fit - everyone and their brother seems to have modded these.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/243x217/2023_02_01_165114_5f1d18624e9c4d3d362e79505e06e7a31ca680f9.j pg

[India Four Two]

Very tall stick and "Russian" instruments, so Russian or Eastern bloc?

[Noyade]

Running with the Soviet suggestions = MiG-17?


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x591/scan1248_fca269fc249d5da19efc92366b7d9850ac1cc7a9.jpg

[Asturias56]

Some people work through the night! You'll have to wait................. :cool:

[Asturias56]

Noyade has it! A very industrial original later seemingly upgraded by ... just about everyone

I like that simple idea on spin recovery ............

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/278x181/imalklkjklges_c063cfd07aaa491c1ba25a2066e57193e38817fd.jpg

[Noyade]

Thanks A56.
In a similar vein...


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x779/scan1249_f85e4e93fbe96223155c0b9ca07b1a3e0b427f71.jpg

[Asturias56]

Bit neater - and that looks like a refuelling probe on the Starboard nose?

And you say "in a similar Vein" plus the blue cockpit takes us to Russia.......... but quite a modern lay out - perhaps an updated MiG21?

[sycamore]

Think it maybe a `contractors ` updated L-59MS,or a -159 development a/c...

[Noyade]

perhaps an updated MiG21?

That'll do me A56 - back to you! :ok:


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x730/scan1252_d87fd6996b10fb737b76f657d0a69217d0f6527f.jpg

[Asturias56]

If it hadn't been painted light blue I 'd still be searching - it's so different from the old Russian cockpits - but the probe was the clincher

I've run out of challenges - I shall have to declare OH

[Asturias56]

lets try this one.............

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/189x216/2023_02_20_104704_53c08e9ee2693bf26e507d701564d4064a327703.j pg

[meleagertoo]

Tupolev SB?

[sycamore]

Could be a helo...E European...?

[Asturias56]

might be, might be .................. not a helo tho'

[Asturias56]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/256x512/2023_02_20_104813_911ec54035866ab5e15880368ae155f659267fc2.j pg
Quite a few built

[sycamore]

MiG-31...?

[Asturias56]

No..................

[Asturias56]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/172x286/2023_02_20_104800_913b2c54dc3555fdb29cfa685e57393e70110766.j pg

[Asturias56]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/309x158/2023_02_20_104828_20e253436e536ab8d37390c5df34773148785ca1.j pg
comes in two main flavours

[Asturias56]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/139x125/2023_02_20_104904_fedaa2df667d316e3e005dc492d8b61586ab2364.j pg
I've just about exhausted all the pics I have

[Self loading bear]

Tupolev TU-22

[Asturias56]

Blinder of an answer Bear................. after awl the trouble I went to

[meleagertoo]

Amazing that the instruments in a Cold War supersonic bomber seem to have changed so little (if at all) since WW2.

[Asturias56]

I have to go out this morning so I'll confirm Bear has it with the Tu2-22 "Blinder" or "Awl"

If the design looks old its because it WAS old - they started on it 1954 and the prototype first flew in 1958 - its really equivalent age to the Vigilante and the Mirage IV. Absolute pig to fly but ooohhhh did it look good!!!

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/771x512/2023_02_20_104649_38a9caa02f8d9269e6993cf2064e96aa9270cb5b.j pg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/300x168/tu22d_382601762960168e23391585bc44bc83587d9129.jpg

[Self loading bear]

Thank you Asturias
Now this, same time frame, and breeze to fly:
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x1007/d41205d4_13d6_4212_b844_49dcc2f41998_a8ad45ad59f3d8c3e8fe822 fe2a6ec6feace9d18.jpeg

[Asturias56]

thought that was a Philippines A/W tail on the right but the colours are reversed

[meleagertoo]

It's a Morane Saulnier Paris.

[Self loading bear]

It's a Morane Saulnier Paris.

Mel has it, please take the wheel.

[meleagertoo]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/470x365/screenshot_2023_02_27_at_14_00_43_f65ccab49f38c94d025fc89385 e657be14eb6128.png

[Asturias56]

Relatively modern dials - post 1960 to pre 2000?

Fighter stick , what looks like single throttle on left

No hi-tech interception radar or weird imaging devices in sight... perhaps a trainer?

So probably single engined - and a jet as it doesn't seem to have a prop out front?

[meleagertoo]

All of your musings seem perfectly feasible, but whether or not they're accurate I couldn't possibly comment!

[Asturias56]

Yes well - currently slogging through page after page of mid/late 20th Century trainers................... there must have been hundreds of types!!

[meleagertoo]

First flight was a little earlier than you mentioned. They saw service briefly but in small numbers.

[India Four Two]

Based on the harness buckle, American?

[meleagertoo]

Indeed American.
Still three or four airworthy I believe, of which I believe this is one.

[ea200]

I think it may be a Temco TT-1 Pinto. Cockpit looks similar but updated.

[ea200]

Further research says it's a Super Pinto N4229.

[meleagertoo]

The differences between the many variants and updates of the scant 20 produced make it hard to fix on a particular mark but either way ea200 has it. To get it down to an individual airframe is indeed impressive.
Well done!
It looks like a super little pocket-jet. I want one!

You have control.

[Noyade]

Super Pinto

Seen here (as the revolutionary XJ-7) expertly flown by Farrah Fawcett battling a Zero hologram produced by 'bad' people in an episode of The Six Million Dollar Man - circa 1976.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x512/20230228_224133_6511491ed5ab00dd202b8c92d693a6c10ac59bc7.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x534/20230228_224812_475f37fd1d40781f927a8727cb573bd430f3794f.jpg

[Asturias56]

damn! I hadn't got to "T" :*

"It looks like a super little pocket-jet. I want one!"

original very underpowered - hence th "Super" upgrade according to Wiki

[ea200]

I got lucky. Looking at a list of 1950's jet trainers I had never heard of Temco so started there.

Open house I'm afraid.

[meleagertoo]

damn! I hadn't got to "T" :*

"It looks like a super little pocket-jet. I want one!"

original very underpowered - hence th "Super" upgrade according to Wiki
The original may have been somewhat underpowered (for Navy wave-off purposes) but I doubt any civvy owner would consider it so - and the remaining airworthy examples (of which my photo was one) are all Super-Pintos with a J85 producing 3000lb thrust. In an aircraft with a MAUW of only 3600lb! Climb rate is quoted at 10,000ft/min. I call that **** HOT!

[meleagertoo]

May I go again?


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/120x152/screenshot_2023_03_02_at_12_50_46_c6eb48f05bcf8ad56fc3d1f7aa 87d06999f83de1.png

[Noyade]

Another Temco (http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other/temco33.html) product, Mel?

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x789/clipboard_1f3cec19359c4eab545321190a5e659047da46ac.jpg

[meleagertoo]

I thought hiding in plain sight might be a good strategy.
How people recognise these obscure one-offs is beyond me!

Noyade's call.

[Noyade]

How people recognise these obscure one-offs is beyond me!.

G'day Mel - sorry mate, no recognition skills here. I just thought it interesting you posted so soon after open house was declared and wondered if you were still on the 'Temco Trail.'
So I googled "Temco Cockpit"...


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x570/capture_6a032562e77efe40b12d9eda85d29c82d1cbc611.png

However that site doesn't differentiate between the Model 33 or Model 58 - so I went to airwar.com and your cockpit shot is very similar to the Plebe.
Member SincoTC was extremely good at this sort of hunt.

Anyway, thanks!


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x639/scan1260_03303f0d9b995f04804a5c031b453a7c2f1db827.jpg


.

[Asturias56]

I thought hiding in plain sight might be a good strategy.
How people recognise these obscure one-offs is beyond me!

Noyade's call.


years on here looking for "obscure one-offs". :* Some of it sticks - and, of course, you have a good idea on sources to search

[Noyade]

Wiki says the first flight was in 1959. Certification in 1963.

[India Four Two]

Let's try to narrow it down a bit.

US? Cabin-class twin?

[Noyade]

Hey Simon.
Yes, a US executive twin.
The photo was taken from a magazine printed 30 years ago - which in turn talks about certification 30 years earlier.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x80/scan1265_5d0d9fa604a86b43cc4dbddfef646b2c1c6fb9a8.jpg

[India Four Two]

The only aircraft I can find that fits the "10 years too late" slogan is the Howard 500:


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x600/howard_1200_480_960x480_1200x0_c_default_7d45dec6e6aae7dd07b bea5ecc063b839b8a7632.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/474x266/th_3774893690_e41a2afe2ea25037add653ce8bad65b8df08a80d.jpg

[Noyade]

Excellent detective work Simon. :ok:
Over to you!

[India Four Two]

Thank you. That was an interesting search.

Nothing in my file, so Open House.

[meleagertoo]

Another easy one for Noyade no doubt...


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/378x444/screenshot_2023_03_08_at_11_48_02_86db20dd041b5d396e4322c75d 28ce3de88f12a6.png

[Asturias56]

Military? American??

[BSD]

Helicopter?

Can't think what though.

BSD.

[meleagertoo]

Military
Not American
Aeroplane

[Asturias56]

Post 2000?

Not American..... well not British or French either

European?

[meleagertoo]

Lets try another pic first...
There are clearly some differences in fit between airframes.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/370x382/screenshot_2023_03_10_at_12_16_21_665b082ece522458b08cd8cd2c f149f968458f97.png

[Asturias56]

That's a pretty modern cockpit - and not Russian either. But there doesn't seem enough switches and dials for a military single seater - you noramlly can't move without it doing something

trainer perhaps?

or maybe BSD was close asking about helicopters - it sort of reminds me of an Apache cockpit (it's not an Apache) - so maybe a 2 seater strike aircraft???

[sycamore]

Indian...?

[meleagertoo]

It's not as overtly aggressive as Apache but far more versatile.
As a result of it's long and difficult gestation it goes under three names, an acronym, an animal and a deity and has (finally) achieved modest sales.
Oh, and it's not Indian.

[Asturias56]

I take it its not a major aircraft producing country from your comments?

[meleagertoo]

Hey! You take it as you wish! - though I don't know what I said that suggests that. I only referred to a long and difficult road to production, something most makers of military aircraft are familiar with. Suffice to say that involved parties range from a designer/developer and company most will never have heard of to one that no-one anywhere has not heard of.
This is most definately an aircraft designed for home requirements, though without doubt including a good eye towards similar roles in neighbouring ones.

Keep at it guys! Nice to have a challenge that doesn't tumble in minutes!

[Asturias56]

After HOURs - thank God it as a wet afternoon - I think its South African - the Mwari or AHRLAC. Must say it had passed me by tho' I seem to remember it as one of those "concepts" several years back. Seems its actually in production -amazing! Tough challenge!1 OH if correct

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x496/ii_website_image4_scaled_750x496_6767e58aaaf971deeb4b26952a0 363edf8888759.jpg

[Asturias56]

" though I don't know what I said that suggests that"

you didn't but you did say its not American or Indian, we knew nothing like that has been built in Europe.- didn't look Russian or Chinese........... about the only country left that builds anything serious is Brazil

So if it ain't there ........... it had to be a country with some military ambition & some hi-tech capability - I started with Argentina, then Chile, then Indonesia then.......... the list is long

Tho TBH it was BSD's "helicopter" question that at least gave me an idea of what it might be conceptually - I sure as hell never though of a pusher engine tho! ;)​​​​​​​

[Gordomac]

Over on R&N about leaving the FD. Brakedwell posted a sooooper snap of the Britannia FD. On this thread, I wondered if you clever chaps knew what that "DV window" was for ? I know it stands for "Direct Vision" and I think we had them on Viscounts but as I atrophy, I can't imagine why one would need a DV window (?).

[kenparry]

I think the idea was that, on approach if the windscreen was obscured (ice, oil, bird remains, whatever) one could open the DV panel, peer through the hole, and complete the approach and landing. The theory seems to avoid consideration of things such as wind blast. Some of the types I flew were so equipped, but I'm pleased to say that the need to use the facility never arose.

[meleagertoo]

Asturias, impressive reasoning as ever! I actually thought you had it and was holding back with your "not major aircraft producing country". Forgive my stringing it out a bit,
It looks an interesting and useful machine, well suited for African ops.
AHRLAC (Advanced High-performance Reconnaissance Light Attack), Mwari (the Great Creator deity in Shona culture) or Bronco II after Mr Boing got involved, as you prefer.

The floor is yours!

[chevvron]

Asturias, impressive reasoning as ever! I actually thought you had it and was holding back with your "not major aircraft producing country". Forgive my stringing it out a bit,
It looks an interesting and useful machine, well suited for African ops.
AHRLAC (Advanced High-performance Reconnaissance Light Attack), Mwari (the Great Creator deity in Shona culture) or Bronco II after Mr Boing got involved, as you prefer.

The floor is yours!
Sounds like the SABA (Small Agile Battlefield Aircraft) proposed by BAE about 20 years ago.

[Asturias56]

Asturias, impressive reasoning as ever! I actually thought you had it and was holding back with your "not major aircraft producing country". Forgive my stringing it out a bit,
It looks an interesting and useful machine, well suited for African ops.
AHRLAC (Advanced High-performance Reconnaissance Light Attack), Mwari (the Great Creator deity in Shona culture) or Bronco II after Mr Boing got involved, as you prefer.

The floor is yours!

If only!! I like the ones where I can niggle away at the tiniest clues - keeps the brain cells working tho sometimes it leads down a rabbit hole or a wild deviation from the truth

I have nothing to hand so OH

[meleagertoo]

I'll see if I can come up with something even more devious!

[Gordomac]

Kenparry; Thanks. Yes, I resonate with that. Often wondered what effect it would have on m y Cliff Richard hairdo and noticed most Captains were bald.

[meleagertoo]

Anyway, back to "What Cockpit..."

Here's an easy one to be going on with.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/466x192/screenshot_2023_03_13_at_15_00_03_14206f7ba6845e5c72b357f36c e414a5747fcd18.png

[Asturias56]

Too easy!!!

October 2018 Senora A insisted on a front seat.................

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/20181006_142133_medium__7bd9e6222036613e844113b2966fb8d640b6 bc92.jpg

[meleagertoo]

Seventeen minutes? Still no record!
Hmpf. I thought such modern instruments in a venerable Islander might throw people off but not here!

Asturias, what's next?

[Asturias56]

Sorry - it was such a memorable experience for the lady - she's always showing her friends her FIGAS pictures.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/20181006_143022_medium__4da30c726087367030753594f6e9ca059459 1bb2.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/20181006_140942_medium__fba2de91fa589c22e09c1b673fd22ea91230 921c.jpg

[Asturias56]

OK - although this is a fairly well known aircraft I can only find a single decent cockpit picture

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/319x249/2023_03_14_091658_0024b687738382a02e6f53b9d8a9982f48f54087.j pg

[Asturias56]

bigger picture

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/402x276/2023_03_14_091722_f587983bcc96d3f27299ce6c3b834098276d8026.j pg

[sycamore]

Annie Anson...?

[Asturias56]

right era - wrong aeroplane

[meleagertoo]

Is it French?

[Asturias56]

No definitely not

It was built in relatively small numbers but derivative designs went on flying for years

[kenparry]

Bristol Type 142 "Britain First"?

[Asturias56]

Right builder, wrong aircraft ;)

[meleagertoo]

Well, that's now low-hanging fruit - aka Bristol Bombay.

[Asturias56]

It is indeed the Bombay - oddly only the one decent cockpit shot I've managed to find

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/199x153/dfsdsfsdfsdfdsf_f74b175dd5f56a8cd4a0f33663b2639c486d6637.jpg

[meleagertoo]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/364x451/screenshot_2023_03_20_at_20_20_27_6b513b769b09dec6236453d47a c2b9182fd49a28.png

[sycamore]

Possibly an `airship`...?

[meleagertoo]

Not an airship, your airship!

[Noyade]

Two big struts at the front - supporting rotor blades above?
European?

[Asturias56]

those struts look like bamboo to me :eek:

[OvertHawk]

those struts look like bamboo to me :eek:

Presumably a Leonardo product then? :E

[sycamore]

Is it `European,Brit,American,and what approx date,ie 1910-20....? Presumably ,not very successful...?
Probably rotary powered,judging by the controls...?

[meleagertoo]

Very successful though in small numbers - spanning the '20s & '30s
European design and adopted elewhere.
Radial in this example. I doubt any were rotary.

[ea200]

Very successful though in small numbers - spanning the '20s & '30s
European design and adopted elewhere.
Radial in this example. I doubt any were rotary.
Are we looking at one of Sr. Cierva's designs or a derivative thereof?

[meleagertoo]

The format of this topic is that you answer the challenge with a reasonably definitive identificaton. "is this one of Sopwith's/Short's/DeHavilland's" isn't going to prove fruitful.
We'll respond to questions of general characteristics up to a point, but for specifics as in answers, you need to tell me.

[ea200]

Fair point, I overstepped the mark. I will rephrase:

Possibly an autogyro but I can't find anything that matches. Not many cockpit pictures around.

[Noyade]

Are we looking at one of Sr. Cierva's designs or a derivative thereof?

Quite a few (Cierva) to look at...


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x539/scan1294_0a40a57bfbb21db08bc16c67f70f334f3e3f7f01.jpg

So, taking your lead, I just punched Google in the face with - "Cierva cockpit"....


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/861x712/capture_a1bf967afe19f44ad8cd633bc56353f1049d3fe5.png

Try it yourself. :ok:

[meleagertoo]

I thought OvertHawk had it with his double-edged Leonardo remark, especially as Westland built aurogyros with the assistance of Sr. Cierva.
ea20, you were so close but as Noyade has illustrated "one of" his designs is a bit too broad to pass muster!

Noyade's in charge once again...

[Noyade]

Thanks Mel!

ea20, you were so close


Agreed - I was following a 'Pitcairn Path' until he mentioned Cierva, so I'm more than happy for ea200 to take the helm. But if not - open house.

[ea200]

Thanks Noyade but you found it and I didn't, I don't have anything to hand anyway so OH it is. It just goes to show that a slight difference in a search term can make all the difference. I had spent ages trying different terms and scanning pictures without finding the picture you found.

[Noyade]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x512/scan1263_317aed8d6ca12b6eb4b990457dfb584626e2be4d.jpg

[sycamore]

Turboprop...?

[Noyade]

Turboprop...?

Yes, turboprop powered.

[Asturias56]

single seater?

[sycamore]

Turbo-Mentor....?

[Noyade]

Not from the USA.
Here's the back seat....


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x462/scan1296_b3f0ccc71bbf26891fd16093ccbc3b364d1e0b6d.jpg

[Asturias56]

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/532550724689461649/

well the vintage first aid kit is Canadian it appears

[India Four Two]

The First Aid kit looked familiar to me, but I can’t think of any Canadian two-seaters that fit the bill.

[Asturias56]

Is it european?

[Noyade]

It is European.
When the photos were taken 30 years ago it was flying in the USA - hence maybe the Canadian first-aid kit?

[sycamore]

PZL-130 Orlik....?

[India Four Two]

hence maybe the Canadian first-aid kit?

and the EXPERIMENTAL marking.

[Noyade]

British...

[meleagertoo]

My goodness, it's a Firecracker!

[Asturias56]

My goodness, it's a Firecracker!
:eek:

[Noyade]

My goodness, it's a Firecracker!

It is indeed Mel. :ok:

[meleagertoo]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/625x393/screenshot_2023_03_31_at_23_53_58_6e1c22805d1e349f1d979ec227 b2eb6b6589a7d9.png

[India Four Two]

American, single-engine?

[Asturias56]

Enhancing the image the top left has "Park" and the white square has Bearing and Temp underneath it so probably US/Canada/UK/Australia?

The Speed runs up to 700 mph

Lots of toggle switches but nothing electronic.

Possibly 1943- 1953 and military? No civi aircraft was pushing 700 mph in those days just after the war

[Asturias56]

some of the gauges are split - a twin?

[meleagertoo]

Here's another view.
Asturias, as ever, is sleuthing fairly well.



https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/869x493/screenshot_2023_04_01_at_12_38_51_3c7d8701b62bc94d74be5d5c4e 9d3cf693f782cd.png

[Asturias56]

Looks a bit industrial to me -= British?

[ea200]

The agricultural looking G clamp attached to the cockpit side is puzzling. The row of probably indicator lights at the top of the panel are odd, marked LH and RH and 1-5 (one missing). Some of the guages appear to have hand written stickers attached. The floor mounted thing about where the stick would be appears to be more recent than the rest but camera angles can give the wrong impression. None of that has led me anywhere so far. A museum piece?

[Asturias56]

second picture has a clear "Flap Position" indicator/handle so definitely English speaking country. On the LHS that look like throttle pitch controls - but for a single prop?

[meleagertoo]

The agricultural G - clamp is the top of the boarding ladder.
Museum piece? Surprisingly, given its history, both battered and very incomplete examples are in storage at a US museum.
The 'floor mounted thing' appears to be an unusually unadorned conventional stick. I think at that stage of a prototype's career there would have been no need for more than a PTT on the stick, also explains the guidance notes on some instruments.
I can't explain the numbered indicator lights.

[Asturias56]

If its in storage at a US museum can we therefore assume it's a US built aircraft? I42 suggested it was but a confirmation would be helpful

well sort of........ :uhoh:

[meleagertoo]

It's American.
It set a global first and a US one. It was not a success despite excellent flying characteristics.
To say it suffered from a built-in identity crisis would be an understatement.
Multi-engine.

[Asturias56]

"It set a global first and a US one. It was not a success despite excellent flying characteristics.
To say it suffered from a built-in identity crisis would be an understatement."

Hmm - so perhaps something that tried to be two things (or more) at once................. like that ghastly submarine/plane that was on the board last year...................

I shall let my mind run free :E

[meleagertoo]

I bet Asturias is a demon at cryptic crosswords too - and poker. Something tells me he either knows or is onto it.

Come on guys, read the pictures, look at the instrumentation. There are several clues there that just don't add up. Only fair to say there are some that don't add up to me either! Granted, nothing at all that will define the type, but certainly that would point in the right direction where precious few choices exist.
I think I've figured the five L and R lights. They're exactly what you'd expect to find in that position, though maybe not in such numbers - but this was a first.

[Noyade]

Convair XF-81?

[Asturias56]

"is a demon at cryptic crosswords too - and poker. Something tells me he either knows or is onto it."

I do like doing cryptic crosswords - I never play cards for money and have hardly ever played poker - far more fun on here! And with about the same chance of making a fortune!!

I have learnt tho that you have to read EVERY word that an experienced challenger poster writes here - and then look to see what they HAVEN'T said.

I certainly wasn't anywhere near what seems to be Noyade's correct answer - I was thinking of some sort of Pushme-Pullyou like the Dornier Pfeil :(

[ea200]

I came across a picture of the XF-81 and for reasons I can't remember discounted it without further research. Like A56 I was heading down the wrong track. I suspect the indicator lights are some sort of yaw indicator based on reported directional stability problems with the prototypes. That cockpit ladder is one serious piece of kit!

[meleagertoo]

Noyade has it, well done. This is the first prototype with a Packard Merlin (hence the mixture control) and J33 jet - hence the Bearing Temp caption - never seen on a piston engine. Various other instrumentation anomalies suggest dissimilar engines (with the benefit of hindsight!)
My take on the L and R indicator lights is they are fire warnings. The early jets were horribly unreliable so I imagine would be festooned with zoned firewires so the pilot would know where the engine had failed and the implications of it.

Those test pilots certainly earned their dough...

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1026x97/screenshot_2023_04_03_at_13_41_35_93546632eb0be837462ce9f09d 8435acb3e1446a.png


Perhaps the biggest problem however, was the throttle lag the XP-81 suffered. Frank W. Davis describes the problem by stating “The pilot had about a 10 second lag when he wanted to go and about 2 seconds lag when he wanted to stop, with both thrust and drag being powerful and non-adjustable when they did occur.” (Consolidated Vultee XP-81, by Steve Ginter).Perhaps the biggest problem however, was the throttle lag the XP-81 suffered. Frank W. Davis describes the problem by stating “The pilot had about a 10 second lag when he wanted to go and about 2 seconds lag when he wanted to stop, with both thrust and drag being powerful and non-adjustable when they did occur.” (Consolidated Vultee XP-81, by Steve Ginter).

Perhaps the biggest problem however, was the throttle lag the XP-81 suffered. Frank W. Davis describes the problem by stating “The pilot had about a 10 second lag when he wanted to go and about 2 seconds lag when he wanted to stop, with both thrust and drag being powerful and non-adjustable when they did occur.” (Consolidated Vultee XP-81, by Steve Ginter)Perhaps the biggest problem however, was the throttle lag the XP-81 suffered. Frank W. Davis describes the problem by stating “The pilot had about a 10 second lag when he wanted to go and about 2 seconds lag when he wanted to stop, with both thrust and drag being powerful and non-adjustable when they did occur.” (Consolidated Vultee XP-81, by Steve Ginter)

Perhaps the biggest problem however, was the throttle lag the XP-81 suffered. Frank W. Davis describes the problem by stating “The pilot had about a 10 second lag when he wanted to go and about 2 seconds lag when he wanted to stop, with both thrust and drag being powerful and non-adjustable when they did occur.” (Consolidated Vultee XP-81, by Steve Ginter)

[Noyade]

Thanks Mel. But A56 did the 'Hard Yakka' on this one - more than happy to hand control to him.

[meleagertoo]

Make it so.

[Asturias56]

Sorry - nothing to hand - and I wasn't anywhere near it TBH :( - I would have spent the next week dredging up strange "convertibles" ,.... car/plane, plane/dogs kennel, plane/birthday cake............... and all the other wonderful ideas from crackpots

Open House!

[meleagertoo]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/363x548/screenshot_2023_04_06_at_15_53_20_9b1f1fde459ac027d493505a3d 1385787c6ee009.png

[sycamore]

Yak-12...?

[meleagertoo]

Nyet.

[India Four Two]

Military trainer. Polish?

[Asturias56]

not very modern dash.........................

looks like a 1950's design to me

[meleagertoo]

I'll accept two models, one a later derivative of the other as they seem all but identical internally, so;
I42, no/no
Asturias, yes

[Asturias56]

Not Polish - but is it East European? I don't think it's Russian but Sycamore is right I think - it has that blue shade on the dash

[meleagertoo]

That double raised panel is typical Soviet bloc style and it isn't Russian so yes, Sycamore is in the right ball-park.
There really wasn't much Civil aviation going on in that part of the world at the time hence the (almost exclusive) military usage at home but upon retirement a number of this model made it to the US & Canada where its abilities were evidently appreciated.

[Asturias56]

Ok - Not Russian or Polish - so Czech, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, E German, ?Albanian? (I wouldn't put anything past people on here)

'nuff there to keep us busy for a few hours :bored:

[meleagertoo]

I'll give you a break...not Albanian!
Lycoming powered.

[teusje]

UTVA-60 or UTVA-66

[Asturias56]

I'll give you a break...not Albanian!
Lycoming powered.

What a gentleman! ;)

[meleagertoo]

Teusje has it, UYVA 66
A very capable utility Eastern bloc STOL machine on wheels, skis or floats. The big supercharged Lycoming scoffed fuel but it was an impressive rugged piece of kit. A sort of Soviet Helio Courier.
https://youtu.be/H5rhcFOFr7o

[teusje]

Thank you Mel.
This should be easy enough, I think.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/512x384/afbeelding_2023_04_10_103528815_c5d1a7fd95769f3802531bbd47db ad8f4b4d793c.png

[Asturias56]

ahh - there's a picture on page 62 of this months Flying magazine that look very similar (but its not identical) - the magazine one has a major electronic upgrade - came in the post on Thursday.

I shall sit this one out

[Asturias56]

The high dash line came in for specific comment relating to the pilot's view compared with another aircraft they were featuring

[BEagle]

Ah - one of the 'fin on backwards' aeroplanes!

[meleagertoo]

Mooney M20J

[teusje]

Well M20K to be exact, but close enough.
So it's back to you, Mel.

[meleagertoo]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/562x417/screenshot_5fe8134c1bbb1adbc84fd5337fb50e9c8eebe8d5.png

[BEagle]

Zwischen ein Beech und ein Voodoo!

[meleagertoo]

I'm afraid that went right over my head.

[BEagle]

Written in German.

Between a Beech (99) and a Voodoo (101).

So a German aircraft with '100' in its title!

He he!!

[meleagertoo]

Ah!
Well, that didn't last long. Heinkel He100

Beagle, all yours -

[BEagle]

OK!

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/390x385/fgfgfgfgf_99a61d3c50b9e43bffbd4c949d62711aa6039d82.jpg

[dixi188]

Point of order Mr Chairman.
What happened to the 24 hour rule?

[Asturias56]

Good point - someone is likely to get banned if the mods wake up. (having served two bans for infringing the rule I speak from experience).

[BEagle]

If you're referring to me, all I did was to give some clues that others might follow!

I didn't actually say "It's an He-100"!

[Asturias56]

It s not you who is in danger its meleagerto - he's supposed to wait 24 hours before confirming you were right.

It seems the wrong way round to many of us as once someone has identified the challenge time isn't important - they're first in the line anyway. What it should be (IMHO) is a 24 hour gap before declaring open house or posting a new challenge. The original problem was someone who just posted every hour and no-one else got a look in

[BEagle]

Neither British nor American....

[Asturias56]

Looking closely and blowing the picture up there's a bloody great quadrant on the LHS - with a handle. That's clearly the main use of the pilots left hand at some point whilst he flies the plane with his right. Something important is being rotated methinks.

Much of yesterday was spent looking at swing wings and rotating wings a la Osprey and rotating engines or nozzles - its not a UK or USA, doesn't look Russian, I don' think the French rotated anything but the Germans did

Thus I meandered to the VJ101 - I can remember some early footage way back.

[sycamore]

EWR VJ-101 X1,First VTOL jet to fly supersonically,6 engines....
OH if correct....

Dammit,beaten by Ast56....

[safetypee]

VFW VAK 191B as an alternative

[BEagle]

It is indeed the VJ-101.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/794x463/vj101_6f4e78ef600c0a45b5287987631c2cffcd827937.jpg


Asturias56, you have control!

[Asturias56]

Open house I'm afraid

[Noyade]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/744x448/scan1262_8b31af6f8867678373d3df4bf5deb9862cd53b7f.jpg

[Asturias56]

looks like N America - - lot of glass around that cockpit Noyade - hope they had a/c!

[Noyade]

Rather sleek looking machine. First flight in early 1988 - says Wikipedia.

[Noyade]

Sorry, A56 - Yes, from the US of A.

[Asturias56]

Mooney M10 Cadet?

[Noyade]

Mooney M10 Cadet?

Not a Mooney.
Bigger.
Faster.
Wiki says "about" 13 built.

Pusher prop.

[Noyade]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/550x311/scan1305_3b7b40d17080814aa112d2bf2da8de03c4a67354.jpg

[Asturias56]

Cirrus VK30 I think

"As a kit aircraft, the VK-30 is a relatively obscure design with few completed aircraft flying. Its most important legacy is that the work done on developing and marketing the aircraft convinced the designers, the Klapmeier brothers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klapmeier_brothers), that the best way to proceed in the future was with a more conventional layout and with a certified production aircraft. Thus the lessons of the VK-30 were directly responsible for the design of the Cirrus SR20 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_SR20) and SR22 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_SR22), "

[Noyade]

Over to you. :)

[Asturias56]

Thanks - again took a lot of lcues

Open House I'm afraid

[BEagle]

It's about time that a limit was placed on PPRuNers who answer challenges, but aren't prepared to post one of their own.....

[Self loading bear]

BEagle,
I share your point when it concerns posters answering quickly and so take away the possibility for others to search for themselves.

But in this particular case this cannot be said about Asturias. He usually has excellent contributions.

When I know an answer quickly I wait at least 24 hours before posting the answer.

[Asturias56]

It's about time that a limit was placed on PPRuNers who answer challenges, but aren't prepared to post one of their own.....

I'm currently active on the three main quiz threads - Airfields, Cockpits and types - in fact on a couple of them I've been the only one really active for the last week. I feel I'm TOO Active on Airfields.

I'm travelling for the next 10 days on work (whoop! whoop!! G&T's all round) so now is the chance for some young whippersnapper to burst on to the scene and challenge Noyade & Bear - who are the Grand Masters of the forum.

[teusje]

Let's try this one.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x163/1_1cb58ee53109efbf24120956aff069e066980426.jpg

[Asturias56]

Pretty hi-tech..............

psot 1918?

[teusje]

First flight 1916

[Allan Lupton]

Looks like a big aeroplane so perhaps by Handley Page.

[teusje]

It's not by Handley Page, and it's not as big as their Type O aircraft.

[Allan Lupton]

Let's change sides and suggest a Gotha. . .

[teusje]

It is German, but not the Botha.

[Noyade]

I use DuckDuckGo on the phone.
Assuming it's a bomber - and using the clues 'German' and '1916', it has an obsession with the AEG GIV.
Once you search the images, you find some good cockpit photos including a beautiful model.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x725/screenshot_20230429_133857_brave_3ec9dc08c8435203b0ffb930bbf e498d2e5a5a5c.jpg


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x289/wnw00032042_6_d_8c48c054f0f3b111ceb8353e87d31146f62c8993.jpg

[teusje]

That's the one, Noyade.
Over to you.

[Noyade]

Thanks teusje!

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/550x752/scan1322_2cc75c803b9b3631ee605d22ff04851b8366ad07.jpg

[Asturias56]

Interesting shape to the dash. trainer I guess?

[Noyade]

Tandem, but not a trainer. The back seat was for his wife. :)
The design is just over 50 years old - but upgraded as time marched on.
The photo is circa 1991.

[Asturias56]

does it still look the same?

[Noyade]

Essentially - Yes. Same colour (blue) scheme but it did end up with a turboprop. It's now a museum exhibit.
The maker was an ex-Navy pilot with fifteen years service - including flying Panthers in Korea. Once he left the Navy he attended medical school and became a family physician.
He died in 2004.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/650x284/front_08071b366b903051de5653eb2f95e9ef57566776.jpg

[Noyade]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/650x438/scan1329_e955f93122aa1f424f33a8556a49aa5e808c80a6.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/582x417/scan1328_addf4dc91f2c72d554f75e2e5a1248675890c530.jpg

[Asturias56]

well it looks pretty but I'm baffled................