Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules

[smujsmith]

TBT,

No, I think it was someone else, I Usually stuck to the ciggies. Gave them up around 4 years ago. My first port of call after landing was usually the nearest permitted smoking place though:O

AA62,

Aviation Safety Network has a brief piece on this incident & includes the following Narrative :-Made a wheels up landing at Brize Norton, Oxfordshire suffering CAT3 damage. Initial investigations found no fault with the aircraft systems. Aircraft used for spares recovery, then Ground Instructional use at Brize Norton.

I've had a few conversations with people who have some knowledge, though no aircrew. The words MLG Warning horn circuit breaker is often part of such conversations:uhoh:

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
yes the u/c warning horn cct brkr was my first thought when I read of the incident. It is pulled on TS sorties to prevent the very loud noise causing a distraction especially at low level and critical phases of the drop as the throttles are retarded. It was part of the afterdrop/leaving DZ checks if memory serves. However if this was the case then these and the normal prelanding checks have either not been done or not done correctly.
When we first got the 'K' one of the loadmaster's pre landing checks was to ensure that the MLG drag pins were secure in the brackets. The check was removed after a few years.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Smudge, damn could've sworn it was you. The AGE in question used to take it down route in it's own aluminium padded box, I believe it was made up by workshops, in the days when a slab of beer could get you anything and was a feat of engineering, sometimes known as a Diver's Breath Tester or a Talcum Powder Pipe, it was normally deployed on baby co-pilots much to the amusement of the rest of the crew.

The Wheels UP at BZN was a combination of running change, Warn Horn C/B and missing out a checklist. The Eng in question is a good bloke and it was the usual chain of events that led to this unfortunate mishap.

[Mal Drop]

I seem to recall that device being brought to a party room in Norway on one of the first GE routes of a young M****n E***y (NATO reporting Name 'Squeezy').

[smujsmith]

Mal Drop,

The pipe in question sounds right up the street of the gentleman you mention. Whilst I "loved him like a brother" I was fortunate enough not to accompany him down route, during the time that our tours coincided. There's only so much an old GE, with no hair can manage:eek: I do remember the stories of the pipe though.

TBT,

Yep, sometimes a chain of events can almost guarantee the approaching cock up. I well remember the first time I flew a Grob Astir, having my ear bent by the club CFI for failing to raise the undercarriage after release from the winch launch. To that point I had only ever flown gliders with fixed undercarriage. So, next launch I duly raised the gear, just after release from the cable. Downwind and the WULF checks were processed quickly, two other gliders vying to land at the same time. You guessed it, I forgot that I was flying the Astir, and reverted to ASK18 mode. The landing was the smoothest I had ever done, and thankfully on the grass, not the runway. The beers that night were an expensive way of learning a lesson, but thankfully no damage to the Astir:ugh:

Smudge:ok:

[fergineer]

Still have the pipe safe and well in my cupboard, we called it the Benny Windmill as I got mine from MPA. Still has many people scratching their heads here in NZ.

[Top Bunk Tester]

And the memory kicks back in, yes it was the afore mentioned AGE, forgive me for confusing the two of you, Smudge. Anybody else off to K Day in the Five Bells tomorrow night, sounds like it's going to get very dangerous?

[smujsmith]

I've just done a quick search and came up with this delightful looking piece of technology;

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/abc05879087ae20dbfae55b54292066e_zps9780e872.jpg

I doubt that Mr "Squeezies" was so elaborate, or was it. Perhaps those who experienced it could let us know (Fergineer?) Apologies for thread drift, but it is part of "our" history. Unfortunately I'm otherwise engaged on Friday, but I hope everyone has a great time.

Smudge:ok:

[fergineer]

Ah Smudge the secret stay a secret, you have to work it out. Mine is nowhere near as elaborate but does the job just as well.

[ancientaviator62]

The next morning we had to fight our way back through the departure system at Djibouti and were only just ready when the VIP party arrived. We left on schedule for the one hour trip to that (to me at least) unknown place Hargeisa .We were due for a stop of around four hours. As we taxied in it was obvious that the place had seem some action. Bits of SAM 2s littered the airfield and there was a general air of desolation and much destruction. The tower , ops buildings and the like were still there but with pock marked walls and all with broken windows.
Waiting for us was a guard of honour so we shut down and the VIP party disembarked and were whisked away for a 'wash and brush up' before formal talks. This visit was apparently the main reason for the whole trip.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0002_zpsa5676082.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0002_zpsa5676082.jpg.html)

The MIG 15 you can see was used in the civil war until someone one dark night cut the throats of the two plots ! As it was reputed still to have rounds in the guns and the ejector seat was still armed we did not get too close !

[dragartist]

Coff, Quick response to your #1739 but don't wish to detract from AA62 tales. My V22 refresher training was completed satisfactory last night.


All our systems were mechanical, as KSim points out the disconnects used a pneumatic capsule timer. De Reefers and other things had clockwork mechanisms. EPERU used a copper shear wire and the steel wire rope pull cord to cut away the drogue. the drogue pulled the reefed mains off the ramp.


We did have some explosive protractors in EPERS used on PURIBAD but these went out once we got rid of the reefed 21 ft and used the 10 ft. The ALM pressed a tit on a box at FS245 that fired the EPERM to cut away the extractor leaving the platform in the aircraft.


US and French do use the FXC EPJD/EPJS which uses squibs to cut away some big parachutes. I worked on this for A400M but never saw it used other than in the US and France on C130 and C17. OCCAR were buying it for the Nations. It should have been properly integrated with the loadmasters workstation and automated taking its feed from the loadcells in the X locks. but this fell on stony ground.


Was also working on a water activated explosive parachute disconnect for use with boats (like some US Seat harness separation devices) Never saw this in service either.I hope it is now.


Our pneumatic timed disconnects were so unreliable many premature ejaculations and failures to ejaculate.


Happy to expand.

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Drag old chap ... All understood :ok:

Back to our good friend AA62 ... Looking forward to the intriguing HF episode :8

I wonder if the chaps out tonight at the K Drinkypoos might share a pic or two ... non-compromising of course ;)

[ksimboy]

Several shabby people realising that maybe we can't do all day sessions like we used to :eek:

[ancientaviator62]

Once the VIP party had left the immediate vicinity we had a look around and indulged in a bit of a photo session.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/VIGOURC0002_zps59859674.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/VIGOURC0002_zps59859674.jpg.html)

As you can see we got a bit closer to the Migs but that is as far as we dare go.
Then one of the minister's party came back and said the crew had been invited on a tour of the town and it would perhaps be 'diplomatic' if we accepted.
I was not at all keen on this but agreed .Even if there was trouble we could not have departed and left the VIP party ! However myself and the G/E remained with the a/c whist the rest went on their tour. Some of you may remember images from that period of the 'technicals' in their pickups with heavy machine guns mounted on the back. Well that was the crew escort for the trip.
After they left we cranked up the GTC and put the power on.On the way to Hargeisa we had not been able to contact base on the HF to update them so I decided to try now.
We must have been in an HF black hole as try as I might I could not raise anyone on any of the normal frequencies on either HF box. I could hear the fans in the sets running as we transmitted. I even tried listening to the Radio Amateur bands to no avail. The G/E had a go with the same result.
So after opening the ramp and door we shut down the GTC and sat in the breeze to try to cool down as the temperature rose. As the racket of the GTC died away all I could hear was the HF aerials sighing in the wind as if mocking our puny efforts at communication.
As the G/E and I swapped 'war' stories a Brit arrived at the back of the a/c.
He had a VERY interesting bit of information !

[CoffmanStarter]

You're an old tease AA62 :)

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
apologies if it annoys any one reading the thread. That was not the original intention. But my medieval PC locks up if I type too much with a pic included ! Weird but very irritating so I have adopted the small post at a time routine. Sometimes lock up on Photobucket too.

[CoffmanStarter]

Sounds like you need to stick a Mac on your XMas list this year :ok:

Great story ... I'm eagerly awaiting the next episode ...

[ExAscoteer]

Dear gods AA62 I'd forgotten that 'Rolex' was the Co on that crew!

[smujsmith]

Ex Ascoteer,

Yet another spooky reference in your last post. Rolex, the co pilot no doubt must be worthy of explanation, I do though have a story that involves the Flt Eng on that crew, and a 'Rolex' watch. A personal experience from the tail end of GW1, the Bahrain detachment, and how we all just "got on with it".

AA62,

Any clues to the ID of the GE, just curious as by the time I became a GE, most of those "old guys" we're out to pasture and with few exceptions (Gopher01) for example, were never heard of again.

Smudge:ok:

[dragartist]

Smudge, You make me laff. Your stories always prompt thoughts from times past. My Rolex story (no I don't own one) Whilst doing some airdrop stuff with the French down at Biscorose an Ex VC10 Air Eng (we called him slippery) lost his in the sea when he was messing with a jet ski. Could not have happened to a nicer bloke!


Talking of jet Skis I would love to uncover the truth about the Jet Skis bought from my budget on an airdrop trial out at Pt Magu. I never went on that occasion. someone must know.


Satisfying Coffs thirst for stuff also got me thinking about one of your GE mates (still serving as a VR I think so no names or clues but if he reads this he will know) We bought a bit of kit called a Tow plate for the J. it enabled a drogue to be deployed and tied to the ramp. (it helped take out the variability of parachute deployment time for greater accuracy) it was electrically operated such that at "green on" it would release and allow the load to be extracted. It could also be manually operated to jettison the drogue like EPERU by pulling a lever (not unlike the ULLA Aft Restraint mechanism (ARM) we used with SPAD. Anyway this chap wanted to play. he had not read the book (no AP) we had not granted switch on clearance or anything. When he plugged the thing into the socket at FS245 sparks shot out. He must of shat himself. A few days later Dragartist received a report saying the kit was US when unpacked and should be returned to the supplier for replacement or our money back. I asked for a F760. Weeks went by still no report on my desk describing the fault. A year later the guy admitted fitting it to the aircraft and switching it on without authority or any clearances. It would appear it worked just fine at Boscombe when they bolted it down properly. The fool did not realise it needed to be earthed through the fixing bolts. Hence the sparks. And just like AA62 TROC story I bought a long set of cables for a Mk4 and short set for a Mk3.

[ExAscoteer]

Smuj,

My reference to 'Rolex' in terms of the Co in that picture is down to his nickname. He had, shall we say, a bit of a short fuse and tended to get upset over the slightest niff naff and trivia.

Hence, Rolex - because he was self winding!

(Don't ever mention the Lyneham RW07 Approach lights to him!)


The Nav in the picture (G** B*******)? I have a photo of him somewhere wearing a BA Concorde Hostie's dress...

[smujsmith]

Some weeks after the end of GW1, my extended stay in Bahrain following redeployment from Riyadh paid off. I knew Bahrain like the back of my hand, and heading back from points East, looked forward to the couple of days we were to spend at my old haunt, the Diplomat. The Eng, who I'm sure is the same chap as in AA62s recent shots, was intent on acquiring a cheap Rolex watch, and, I was successful in introducing him to the "man who could help" in the souk, on our first night. A purchase was made, and our centre seat stalwart duly owned half a pound of "top quality" Rolex.

The next morning, after breakfast and as we lay at poolside in the warming sun, a large splash was heard. Our Eng was doing some aquatic exercise, and three lengths of the pool later, joined us on the recliners, ready to face the rest of our day off. After less than an hour, our Eng uttered a cry of disbelief, and handed me his recently purchased watch. He had worn it for his swim, it was awash, half filled with water, and had not functioned as a watch for, just short of one hour, as witnessed by the time it had stopped. Well said I, why are you giving it to me? " You are the ground engineer Smudge" he said, "We're on the ground, do your job". So I took the watch to my room. I had a set of watchmakers screwdrivers (who didn't) and duly took apart the watch, after only a few minutes exposure, the internals were showing signs of corrosion (I really mean rust) and we're obviously beyond my limited abilities (I'm no M**k L***y). So I consigned the guts to the scrap heap and inserted a new face. Hand crafted on cardboard was a clock face, stopped at the time the watch ceased to function. In lieu of "Rolex Geneva", I inserted "Bollux Bahrain". On returning the case and strap to my esteemed colleague, he took it well, accepted that my talents were better directed at Allison engines and Elsans, and we all went home happily ever after.

I went to somewhere in the states with that Eng a few months later, he was still wearing the watch, it still had my cardboard insert, and he was being careful to take it off when he went for a swim. Now that's a bloke that learns quickly!!!!! Somehow, I would not be surprised if he posted on this thread that he still has his watch.

Smudge:ok:

[Mal Drop]

I actually had a very high opinion of 'Rolex' when he joined LXX as a skipper, one of the best at developing good operating habits in the Co's he flew with.

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
you have a PM.
The chap who turned up at the a/c turned out to be a mine clearance engineer who worked for a firm called Rimfire. The were out there on contract to the UN.
He told me that large parts of the airfield were still mined (remember the int brief !) and and not to stray away from the pan. If we taxied back exactly the same way we came in we should be OK ! I promised that we would do so even if we needed a man with a red flag to lead us. For this priceless bit of info we gave him a six pack of cold cokes. He then went on his way with my thanks and respect.
One of the guards had seen this and came over waving his rather rusty AK47 and shouting in Somali. It was obvious he wanted coke too. If we gave him one then a zillion others would magically appear and clean us out. I said no and he shouted a bit louder. It is interesting how the mind works in these situations. I doubted his green card was in date and the weapon looked very dodgy .
Yet I was less worried about my own safety than what the boss would say in his a/c came back with more holes in it than it had left Mombasa.
We were rescued by our minder (the one in slacks and yellow top in the Mig pic). He was so important he did not need a weapon, he had a Filofax, remember those ? After a brief one sided conversation no doubt centered on discrepancies in the guard's family tree the guard slunk off and we had no more problems. In relief I gave him a coke and a detachment tee shirt.
The G/E and I then resumed our tall tales in peace.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/CREWATHARGEISA_zps4e61d8fc.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/CREWATHARGEISA_zps4e61d8fc.jpg.html)

The pic shows the state of the tower etc at Hargeisa.

[CoffmanStarter]

Seems like strafing Air Traffic is a local sport based on that pic AA62 :eek:

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
everywhere we flew over Somalia there was evidence of widespread destruction of the infrastructure. I did have a pic of some of the dead SAMS etc but it seems to have vanished.
After the incident with the aggressive guard (I did think he may have had khat for breakfast) I wondered outside to take another pic.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HARGEISA0002_zps8be4010b.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HARGEISA0002_zps8be4010b.jpg.html)

Suddenly there was a lot of noise, shouting and movement over on the far side of the pan. My heart jumped at first then I realised that it was the guard of honour forming up. It could only men that the VIP party was returning. We had been on the ground for about half our scheduled time so the talks had either gone very well or very badly. We never did find out but suspected it had to be the latter.
Sure enough they and the rest of the crew swept up to the a/c and everyone boarded. After a VERY careful headcount we started up and carefully retraced our wheel tracks back to the runway and took off for Nairobi.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

Smashing telling of a story that a few "Ascoteers" might have experienced. I had the joy of a deployment for resupply to Kigali, from Dar Es Salaam, which provided failure, superb C130 co ordination and a story that was printed in the Lyneham Globe, I penned it, and after the editor, who was a top bloke printed it, I had a one way interview with "Harry Staish". Apparently OC Admin would have preferred a full blown Courts Marshall. Thankfully common sense prevailed, along with a sense of humour. Not sure if there are archives of "The Globe" if so, please post a link for me you experts, Goldilocks and the three bears was the title ISTR. Meanwhile, a round of applause for AA62, a major contributor to this growing thread. I'm sure others can offer some input, without compromising PPRUNE posting regulations.

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Well said Smudge :ok:

AA62 :D:D:D:D

[November4]

It is 30 years ago today, 3rd Nov, that the RAF arrived in Addis Ababa for the start of Op Bushell.

I found this report about the start of operations in Ethiopia and although it from the MAMS perspective, it might of interest.

Operation Bushel – Initial relief Efforts

Within hours of getting the go-ahead, 3 mobile teams complete with full field equipment, water and rations, were ready to move on the 3 activator chalks which would effect initial relief efforts.

Careful planning was necessary at this stage as the said activator aircraft also had to carry a self sufficient detachment, including Engineering, Operations and Catering staffs along with their associated equipment. Upon arriving at Addis Ababa in the early hours of 3rd November priority was given to establishing a tented Base Operations Camp from which the Royal Air Force task could be co-ordinated. This camp was to be located on a site, agreed by the 1 Group Liaison Staffs, adjacent to an Ethiopian Airlines servicing hangar and thus offering a covered storage facility.

As a field capable unit, UKMAMS personnel quickly established the base camp and were ready to operate within 3 hours of arrival. An initial reconnaissance sortie was mounted shortly after this, and a Movements team was deployed to assess possible problems with loading at forward airheads. As a result of this sortie, it was decided that due to the high winds, and exposed terrain of Assab, it was not feasible to establish a forward UKMAMS element at Assab on a permanent basis.

At 0700 hrs on 4th November, the first effective missions were mounted. The concept of operations was to operate two airframes into Assab to uplift grain which would then be flown to the feeding centres at Mekele and Axum. Mobile teams of 4 men flew with each sortie, with additional personnel being deployed to Assab airhead for load co-ordination with relief workers.

At all times a UKMAMS presence was maintained at the Addis base camp to advise on any ‘spec’ loads which may arise. Three sorties per frame per day were achieved in this way, due largely to the quick turnrounds by loading teams, which resulted in a total uplift of between 150 and 200,000 lbs of grain per day. The importance of such figures is appreciated when it is considered that 100 lbs of grain will feed a family of 5 for one month.

In later weeks the Movements task diversified, and UKMAMS personnel began to deploy tentage, blankets and foodstuffs into additional airheads such as Asmara and Gonda, as well as heavy earthmoving machinery for improving the rough strips on which all operations were mounted.

The efficiency of operations in Ethiopia is evident, in that during the first 4 weeks of the detachment, the 18 men of UKMAMS element were responsible for moving 3,600,000 lbs of relief supplies.

[Brian W May]

If you go to YouTube and search Op Bushel, you'll find a few videos (ITN originals) given to me by the cameraman.

You'll find quite a few bits of MAMS and 47 AD guys you might recognise.

Have fun, it was a job well done (utterly pointless in the great scheme of things, but felt good to do).

[smujsmith]

UKMAMS,

Love them or loath them, they were an essential cog in the Machine that ensured that Albert got the job done. I had the great honour of being made an "honorary" Muppet by a team leader whose first name was Jim. Having his own imprest Jim arranged a banquet in his suite in our Hotel, on our way back from a Far East trip. The hard work was done, and the lads from MAMS always offered to stay behind and help where they could with the aircraft. I never, ever, had anything other than respect for the MAMS boys (Muppets all). As an associate Muppet I hope that we can get more input, looking at how they saw operating down route on Albert (K of course).

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Smudge ...

Perhaps we should include this link to the UKMAMS 'Old Boys Association' given the team effort on Op Bushel and what you have said above ?

UKMAMS Op Bushel (http://ukmamsoba.org/bushel.htm)

A few other Ops covered as well ...

UKMAMS HomePage (http://ukmamsoba.org)

[ancientaviator62]

When were established in the cruise on the way to Nairobi the co tried contacting base on the HF. Nothing ! So it was not until we we within VHF range that we were able to inform anyone that we were airborne and arriving early.
We landed and parked outside the VIP terminal. It was dark by now and we could see that it was well and truly shut. We explained the problem to our VIP who was totally unfazed by it. So we sat for about an hour with the GTC running providing a modicum of air conditioning whilst they tried to find the man with the VIP terminal key. Eventually he turned up with a reception committee and we disembarked our pax and flew down to Mombasa. We were met by the boss and a case of beer. I gave him a very brief rundown and he gave us all the next day off. Except that group wanted a report ASAP ! I took the hint so next morning after an early breakfast I wrote a thank you note to every team member and pushed them under their doors whilst they had a lie in. Then I drafted my report which the boss later turned into 'staffspeak'. Then I retired to the bar for a well earned beer or was it two ?.
My loyal reader, whoever you are, will be relieved to hear that the next post will wrap up the Op Vigour saga.

[ancientaviator62]

Op Vigour continued for a while longer and as the original end of detachment date approached we all expected it to be extended as it was plain the US were remaining in theatre for some time. However due to a 'who will pay' spat between the two ministries involved we were not extended. So like thieves in the night we folded our tents and came home. Job not quite done.
The US did stay on and it was during this phase that 'Blackhawk down' occurred.
About a month later all the crew received a pen or a notebook from the minister's office with a nice covering letter.
So ended one of my more interesting trips !

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks AA62 ... I enjoyed reading about your Op Vigour trip :D:D:D:D:ok:

[smujsmith]

AA62,

"So like thieves in the night we folded our tents and came home. Job not quite done."!

How very apt, and a well narrated tale that reminds me very much of the deployment to Dar Es Salaam some years later when Kigale became the focus of world attention, though only fleetingly. I'm sure that many of us who served on, in or supported Albert have experienced relief work, be it first or second hand, and been exasperated at the ineptitude of Government and hierarchy to take the facts "on the ground" in to account when deciding whether to continue an operation. I think we can all agree though, when it comes to such operations, the C130 is the "vehicle of choice", and, the Royal Air Force team, the epitome of capability, when allowed to get on with the job.

Now, anyone around who can give us some idea of flying as part of the Green Barrows, and the difficulties of the formation barrel roll, away from the crowd line:eek:

Smudge:ok:

[sycamore]

Ahh,Smuj, that simple delightful aerobatic manoeuvre...to truly appreciate the `niceties/gotchas`,and for those unaccustomed to more than 20 deg. of bank,a `training tool` is required....the cardboard middle of a toilet-roll,or a kitchen roll,or similar...you will notice it is spiral wound,some to the left,others ,to the right....one of each is preferred...
Starting at one end of the spiral,draw little aeroplanes in the standard formation of 5(ie 3 one behind each other,and the other 2 ,one on each side midway between the first 2.Feel free to number them,1-ldr ,2 stbd,3 port,4 box 5,behind 4....if performing for a Naval occasion,2 and 3 are reversed....
Now,proceed around the periphery,along the spiral,and draw the formation again,at every 90 deg,until you`ve done a full 360....Find the other roll and complete in the opposite direction....Now the fun starts..in flight..
At the preflight briefing,our illustrious leader(usually S** V****) will have run-thu` all the problems and ways to deal with them,,for they are many,including `emergency break`,when some twonker gets in our way,and we have to scatter to the 5 winds; it actually does look much better than the `other` lot that fly those red things,and we just use black smoke as well....an added effect is gained by having primed the fuel jettison,and at the `break` the Eng will`dump,and the Nav should fire off as many Verey cartridges as he can in quick succession,hopefully setting the fuel alight....This is also a good deterrent to any would-be `Ace` FJ pilot during fighter-affil....Nowadays,firing the chaff/flares at this point will really have the spectators on their feet....However it also helps one to see where all/nearly all the other aircraft are,for a grand rejoin....
Meanwhile,back to the `barrel-roll`and `howtodoit`...We usually start running-in at about 250-270 kts ,then start rolling,(if you b/r to the right,you start rolling left,and vversa..),and diving to about 45dg.,and about 320 kts...you can follow with the `tool` by postitioning the start of the spiral at about the 4 o`clock ,for a roll to the right,or 8 o`clock for a roll left...
By this time,#5 is calling `Buster` as the TQ will be about 19600/1032.?but this is no time to be looking at gauges,as the leader is now reversing the roll,and heaving the nose up in a graceful arc towards about 60 deg,wings vertical at the half-way point,continuing to the top,inverted,where the wings are level,and the nose is above the horizon,not quite weightless....follow on the bog-roll.. keeping the `pull and roll` going,all the way down t`other side....
Of course,it was good for the leader,,and #4 and#5,but #2 and#3 would be really `stretched`...
Another good variation would be for #5 to be `plugged` onto #4,in days of yore ,when we had tankers.....
And to finish ,a few little rules; keep it smooth,keep it balanced,if you are too fast,make it big,a little slow,faster roll..Over the top,nose above the horizon,and never,ever,if it turns to `rat****`,never pull-thru`.......

If you look side-on to the bog roll,if the axis/flight path is inclined slightly up,the initial pitch-up is slightly steeper than if the axis is level,but the descent is shallower. If the initial pitch-up is shallow(roll axis below the horizon),the descent from inverted will be steeper...! And that is where a lot of people have died,doing barrel rolls.....ie Invader at Biggin....
There is a yu-toob video of a Transall barrel-rolling......
Well,those were the days.....then home for tea and medals....

[smujsmith]

Sycamore,

:eek::D:D:D. Priceless sir, I have followed your instructions to the letter. I have managed an appointment with my GP to remove the "bog roll centre" from my right eye on Thursday, meanwhile I struggle to maintain formation with Mrs Smudge, who is a very "vertically challenged" person. Seriously, having seen a couple of performances, the display was always more impressive than the "chaps in red" could manage with their lower powered machines. I'm sure that a future government might see sense and decide to renovate a few 'K's and replace the sparrows with the Barrows, it would have my full support. Do tell more, if you can.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Another tale but as I was not on this trip I do not have my faithful friend to consult. I have only the alter ego of my unfaithful friend, my memory. So all corrections are most welcome. Perhaps Brian the Nav can ask Chris K. if he remembers this incident.
Not long after we got the 'K' one of our a/c on departure from Bermuda with a full pax load experienced a runaway rudder trim. I think the captain was Neil F and the AQM (as we were at that time) was Terry F. The pilots managed to hold the a/c with full opposite rudder but needed some mechanical assistance. This was provided by the AQM in the form of lashing strops round the rudder pedals and secured to a tie down point in the cargo compartment. They landed back safely at Bermuda.
Several things were changed as a result of this incident. We had been cleared to operate with any number of pax with only one AQM. This was adjusted to bring us more or less in line with the other RAF transport a/c. The pax LSJs were stowed in the large bins on the cargo door. It had proved very difficult for the single AQM to issue and supervise their donning. The initial solution was to put the LSJs behind any of the para seats that were fitted. Due to high pilferage rates this was changed to putting them in canvas bags and hanging then from the top of the seat rail.
Now I may need help here from smudge and his tech colleagues.
The cause of the incident was deemed to be the fitment of an incorrect relay
in the rudder trim circuit. The problem for the groundcrew was the plethora of part numbers coupled with the paucity of spares. The relay had been issued and 'correctly' fitted in good faith.
As you ascend the cargo ramp and onto the door on the LH side as you look aft is a notice written on the soundproofing. If I recall correctly it read :
'Use only Cutler Hammer relays Part number XXXXXXXXXXXX.'
Am I correct in thinking this was a component in the rudder trim circuit and this notice a legacy of the incident I have described ?

[Top Bunk Tester]

Ah the wonderful S** V****, one of the very few officers that I would follow blindly and without question. To most, a very grumpy Sqn Ldr, but if you ever worked for him you soon saw the measure of the man. If you were in the wrong then watch your six but if you were in the right and he agreed with you then a better ally could not be found. I had the priviledge to call this gentleman "Boss" for several years.

If his twin brother ever came out to play then a good time was guaranteed :D

He was also Det Cdr on Op VIGOUR for the month I was down there.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0006_zps623f658a.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0006_zps623f658a.jpg.html)

Top bunk tester,
I think this is a pic of the gentleman in question (kneeling) with whom I did a lot of trips. When you got to my age and stage who you went with was more important than where you went. I was in a position to pretty much pick and choose hence my trips with SV and a few others. I could make up my fantasy crew but would not dream of articulating it on an open forum !

[Top Bunk Tester]

Aa62 you have a PM, and that Capt looks like G***** C******* from the back.

[Null Orifice]

Re: #1789


Looks like our paths may have crossed, ye Ancient one, albeit several thousand miles apart, back in the early days of the K.
I had the honour (and indeed, pleasure :hmm: !!) of being Duty Engineering SNCO at Colerne around the time of the aforementioned Bermuda incident. My relatively minor involvement was in the search to rectify the 'No Spares Available' situation in the so-called supply system (more of this in future posts).
I was, on this occasion, requested by Tech Ops to fetch my backside up into the ramp area of each of the Ks on the base, to ascertain the Part No/Manufacturer of the Cutler Hammer item requested. Can't remember what the correct Part No was! This was in the days before the signage you referred to (Part No XXXXXXXXXX) was applied (if my crumbling memory serves me well). Needless to say, a certain amount of 'robbing Peter' took place in the ensuing knock-on effect, in order to meet the target dates for 'frames to return to their respective bases.

[Mal Drop]

Another S** V**** fan here, without a doubt the finest operator I have ever served with; an exemplary officer, and someone in whom I had absolute trust. I remember when I returned to the fleet (after sunny jolly hols at HQ STC) I was given a double-Co crew through the OCU. One of the Co's (who became a DFC-winning training captain on SF) was quite a character but also terrified of S** who was by now on STANEVAL. I had to take him to one side and explain that underneath the grumpy exterior was a heart of gold and more knowledge of the aircraft than it should be possible to fit into one body.

[smujsmith]

Null Orifice,

Why do I know that expression ? As an ex Colernite myself, it sounds like you did a bit of robbery, that followed from one side of the airfield to the other. I'm sure you have some good tales from Bannerdown Hill.

AA62,

Respect to the Loadmaster who used some mechanical advantage to overcome the unwanted yaw effect. I assume that (thinking about a previous post I made regarding differential power) the pilot had already attempted some adjustment via a differential power setting. If so, I'm suffering a misunderstanding of the accident report for the aircraft that crashed at Colerne, where I understood that the use of opposite aileron and rudder was unable to overcome the loss of the No1 engine, with high power applied to the other three.

TBT,

I was fortunate indeed to have been a GE when S** V**** was a regular sight down route. Always found him to be fair, and someone who was easy to follow. Surely the sign of a good leader.

With respect to fitting only authorised parts, I think I have already related being made to refuse the offer of a spare from a USAF source, and having to wait a couple of days for the Lyneham supplied spare to be delivered. Perhaps AA62 justifies Eng Wings decision, certainly, it's food for thought for those of us who may have considered the "optional" spare. Im sure others can cover similar examples. Great posts gentlemen, and something to think about.

Now "null orifice" ? TD valve adjustment ?

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Null Orfice,
Thank you for confirming my very distant memory and your part in this story. My understanding, viewed through the prism of long ago memory, was that the relays in question looked the same and fitted perfectly. The problem for the suppliers and engineers was that we had three different schemes for part numbers. As usual there was a distinct lack of spares across the board ! And in the usual RAF manner very few of the engineers had any formal Hercules training at that time. We had Lockheed numbers, Federal Stock numbers (USAF) and Section and Refs. The new supply computer at Hendon was attempting to bring some order out of this chaos but initially just seemed to confuse the issue. I seem to recall that a physical check had to be made between the old and new parts.
Some of the bits we got as spares were not up to spec. I recall being shown a spare para door which had stencilled on it 'Not to be fitted to operational aircraft'.

[Brian 48nav]

Colerne crash; IIRC, at the same time as Tony B pulled the T Handle on No1, No2 wound down, so simultaneous double engine failure.


It happened on the day I was having my clearance medical at Lyneham - I think I was told later that the inner engine failure was attributed to inhalation of dust from the concrete that had been laid on the pan at Lyneham over the previous few months.


AA62


Good excuse to call Chris today!

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
hope Chris can add to the Bermuda story. The problem with all of the 'K' losses was that we had neither a CVR nor a 'black box'. So the investigators were severely hampered in their task. This lack of recording equipment was I believe a financial decision. Like all such bean counter's the person making this decision would of course not be at the sharp end at all !
In the end the 'K' asymmetric training losses were but a continuation of the crazy tradition that killed so many Meteor and Canberra crews.
Does the 'J' have a CVR and/or a 'black box' ?

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/THEBEVERLEYATBEVERLEY0002_zps1cc158bb.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/THEBEVERLEYATBEVERLEY0002_zps1cc158bb.jpg.html)

Yes I know it is thread drift but at is amazing what you find when you are not looking for it ! This of course is one of the a/c the 'K' replaced. Nimbev at least should be happy. It shows my wife Beverley in front of the Blackburn Beverley at the now defunct Museum of Army Transport at Beverley. Game set and match !

[ancientaviator62]

Mal Drop,
according to my log book I first flew with F/L SV in April 88 on an MCT sortie. Must have been just after he came to 30. Did an ASI tanker det with him in Jan 89. First trip with S/L SV was July 90 on a LLXC. He must have become a Ftl Cdr around this time.

[Top Bunk Tester]

AA62

Also one of the few Flt Cdrs on 30 that would stand up to the Fat Controller :ok:

[Brian 48nav]

Although Chris was on 47 at the time he can't remember the incident and was struggling to remember details of the rudder trim - all those hours asleep in the bunk as a Cathay pilot have dulled his brain ;) .

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
thanks for trying. At least Null Orifice has confirmed the main thrust of my story. Probably less of a crew bunk problem for Chris than all that post flight champagne they used to get through !

[kilwhang]

Brian,

My recollection of the accident was that the No 1 was shut down using the Condition Lever and, during the follow-up, the No 2 Fire Handle was pulled. Because the IAS was below Vmca2, applying full power to the other 2 engines led to the inevitable.

Mind you, your memory is probably better than mine.

[nimbev]

AA62 A very tasteful pic of the Bev (both of them).

At least the Bev had buckets of both character and charm - in the same way that a classic car that wont start and keeps breaking down has character!

Sad that there is only one in existance and the RAF Museum let their Bev fall apart.

[smujsmith]

Kilwhang,

I heard a similar story regarding a mix up with condition levers and T handles. At the time it happened I had just left Colerne to join you at AKR, so it was certainly a shock to hear of it happening. I certainly believe that by the time I became an Aircraft Ground Engineer in 1988 or so, that such things as a checker shutting an engine down had gone out of practice. Some things definitely improved over the years.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Nimbev,
I thought you might approve of the pic. As a restorer and tinkerer of classic cars I think your analogy is most apt.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HSP3_zpsb1b83006.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HSP3_zpsb1b83006.jpg.html)

Pic is the HSP ready for loading into the a/c. Due to these loads exceeding the Condec limits (25000 lbs) we had to use the rather ungainly device shown above.

[Null Orifice]

smudge

I have a few stories that some may find interesting, if only for their historical context. I shall post these in due course. They will cover my time at Colerne on Acceptance Checks and Base Servicing, a subsequent posting to the late, great, 48 at Changi, just in time for Bersatu Padu and the subsequent winding down East of Suez, and finally, on 'A' Line at Lyneham. I intend to keep these tales in an approximately chronological order (following the established trend) but reserve the right to deviate :) as I see fit (brain fade permitting).

AA62

My memory confirms that yours is still quite good after all this time. The offending relays were visually identical, not that I, a mere engine man, would know if they weren't! Things that go 'click' and don't “hiss or p!$$” shouldn't be allowed! Once the required part had been identified, an electrical tradesman was roused from his pit to perform the necessary, while I filled out the necessary paperwork. Here endeth my involvement with Cutler Hammer relays.

[ancientaviator62]

Null Orfice,
as I recall there was no way before the incident that the suppliers or the engineers could have known about this relay problem. We had lots of problems. I think that apart from the usual reluctance to properly provision spare parts there was a mind set in MOD that this was a proven mature a/c. Indeed it was but we certainly turned our 66 into one offs by one means or another. The supplied servicing documentation was a mess and in some cases actually misleading. I may bore the readership with the ramp lock problems at a future date. Oh and bunting the a/c to get the cargo door to lock up on airdrop sorties.

It sounds as though we were on 48 at Changi at the same time.

[Dougie M]

When the Herc arrived the Old Guard from Hastings and Bevs OCU took on the training on the new beast. Who could forget Dolly Grey and Jack Huntingdon. The snag was that the Herc was a quantum leap in performance and the habit of "bottling an engine" on take off took some time to be abandoned. The loss of a piston engine didn't change the poor performance of the other 3 much but the Allison produced as much as a whole Lancaster bomber all by itself and if the matching outboard on the other side wasn't hauled back then the remaining 3 turbines would take you straight to the scene of the accident.
Years back a Hastings instructor of welsh descent Taff J*** once bottled an engine in flight at night and in the ensuing panic reactions of the pilots and flt eng, who all had engine instruments managed to shut down the remaining engines. In the resulting dark silence with the only sound being the wind soughing over the wings a purposeful welsh voice was heard to say " Now will everybody put everything back where they found it!"

[Null Orifice]

AA62
You are right on the subject of the differences in the relays - and in the (incorrect) assumption by 'powers that be' that they were getting a proven aircraft; after all, it had been in service with the gum chewers for a good number of years before we acquired ours.
Part of the problem was in the support/training departments. While I can only speak on behalf of the ground personnel, there was a complete lack of appreciation of the quantum leap we were expected to make from the Hastings/Bev, etc.
Instructors on the ground school had no experience on the K, or any other C-130 for that matter. The manufacturers' reps (both Freds) were excellent fellows, and well versed in the build/overhaul of the aircraft and engines but, sadly, not at the operational line servicing/hangar maintenance levels.
Our request/suggestion of 'borrowing' some USAF guys from operational units - who had relevant experience on type, and who could have given us some useful gen, fell on deaf ears.
I was on 48 between May 70-October 71, so we may have seen each other at happy hour (or in the dinghy at the squadron repat party!).

[smujsmith]

Null Orifice,

With respect to training and experience on Albert in the early days, you are spot on. In some ways I was fortunate in being posted to Colerne directly from my apprentice course at Halton. I had no pre conceived ideas, in fact I had no idea, what to expect. Reading the books, and doing as I was told was the general rule on White team (Base 3) in 71-73, and followed when I was part if the Corrosion Control team (Tank Rats) before posting to Cyprus. As I recall, and as AA62 suggests, the use of NSN, FSN and Section and Reference numbers did little to help anyone find his way through the Vol3. But must surely be down to the insistence on using a blend of USA and British equipment? When I was there, Colerne's Lockheed Rep was a bit of a lad, wore a ten gallon hat and cowboy boots. He ensured company funds sponsored many of the drinks consumed at the team Christmas do, and even managed to present us all with a dark blue tie, with a single Albert on it. I still have mine, but like my course notes, photographs etc, seem to be temporarily misplaced in my old Nav bag.

I rather suspect that the "buggers muddle" that was the fleet "second line facility" at Colerne in the early 70s, would not be acceptable for say, the introduction of the A400M to the RAF today. But then, perhaps half the fun of engineering on Albert was the "journey in to the unknown.

Doug M,

Thanks for that insight on the loss of an Engine on Albert. It never occurred to me how much power the Allison was producing on take off, despite more than 5000 hours flying on them, years working on them, and lots and lots of ground running. It's never too late to learn I reckon.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Null,
we did actually 'borrow' some experienced USAF C130 chaps. We had the USAF exchange officer on 47, one Major J.J. Smith. A class act who arranged for some of the USAF Mildenhal Herc det to visit us at happy hours on the squadron.
They brought some of their groundcrew and we always invited ours. This ad hoc arrangement certainly helped us with 'translating' the very poor manuals and helped to solve a lot of problems we were beginning to have especially with the air con/pressurisation and the infamous ramp lock saga. Getting the system to acknowledge that the books might not be the paragons of perfection that they assumed was quite another matter.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HSP4_zps59814606.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HSP4_zps59814606.jpg.html)

Pic of the HSP safely installed. Not a lot of room as you can see. I wonder if this is the type of vehicle that DM refers to in his post on dropping the HSP. This may be the very last HSP I dropped.

[ancientaviator62]

Null,
forgot to mention that I was on 48 at the same time. We will have known each other but whether we would now is doubtful due to to old father time !

[Yamagata ken]

'Scuse me aa62. What's in the Jerrycans?

[GreenKnight121]

AA62
You are right on the subject of the differences in the relays - and in the (incorrect) assumption by 'powers that be' that they were getting a proven aircraft; after all, it had been in service with the gum chewers for a good number of years before we acquired ours.
Part of the problem was in the support/training departments. While I can only speak on behalf of the ground personnel, there was a complete lack of appreciation of the quantum leap we were expected to make from the Hastings/Bev, etc.

I cannot let this go unchallenged.

How does the failure of the British government and military in providing proper training and support for the C-130 when they decided to adopt it in any way mean that the C-130 was an "unproven aircraft"?

It was a very proven aircraft, with proven and successful training, maintenance, and supply requirements - with a proven and successful training, maintenance, and supply system in place in the USAF/USN/USMC - and the UK decided NOT to avail themselves of those when they adopted the aircraft itself.


That the UK, when the US offered to show them how to train for and maintain the C-130, said "no thanks, we'll do it our own way, as yours is obviously inferior*" only shows the flaws in the UK's decision process - it shows nothing about the aircraft itself.



* Perhaps they used the words "too expensive" here.

[ancientaviator62]

Yamagata Ken,
for training drops the jerry cans would ether be empty or contain water. For Exercise or Operations they would contain fuel for the vehicle. For a war load you would hardly see the vehicle for jerry cans and other stores !

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HSP2_zps726c5ddd.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HSP2_zps726c5ddd.jpg.html)

Pic of the HSP fully rigged and the final checks being completed and signed for. Both the ALM and the army checker did their own independent checks and then signed the checklist.
You can clearly see the extractor parachute fitted to the bomb rack.

[Yamagata ken]

Thanks aa62. When I saw them I thought: 'petrol, that looks like an accident (fireball) looking for somewhere to happen'. In my very brief time in boy's service (1969), everything was petrol engined. I believe its all diesel now? (Apologies if I'm off-topic).

[nimbev]

I tend to agree with GreenKnight121. The aircraft were bought through FMS and not directly from Lockheed. Full training would have been available had UK wanted it but, to be honest, I dont think there were too many problems with the training per se. Minor problems arose with changes to the aircraft eg removing part of the US nav fit and installing parts of a UK system, but perhaps one of the biggest problems was the decision not to use a fungal inhibitor, such that by mid 1969 we had major structural problems with the integral fuel tanks.

I remember that B cat crews were sent out on the Changi slip to bring back the aircraft. The airframe we recovered went straight into the hanger at Lyneham and had major structural rework to the wing. They wouldnt even authorise it for one more flight. I remember the crew being invited to go and have a look - having just flown it back from Changi we werent impressed! Mind you I never worked out why B cat crews were stipulated - pilots yes, maybe they were more likely to handle the aircraft more gently than a less experienced pilot - but for the nav? My undoubted navigation expertise wouldnt have helped a lot if the wing folded!!:(

From Hansard Dec 1969

The fuel tanks of virtually all R.A.F. Hercules have suffered some degree of corrosion. The extent of the damage varies widely. In a few aircraft replacement of part of the wing structure is likely to be needed. All the aircraft affected will be repaired over the next year. To make good the loss of transport capacity while repairs are being carried out, some Argosies will continue in service longer than planned.The Royal Air Force has for some time used a fuel additive as an icing inhibitor for aircraft liable to icing, and this additive inhibits fungal growth. In view of the special lining of the integral fuel tanks, it was not at first thought necessary to incur the cost of using this additive to check fungal growth in all Hercules aircraft.

[ancientaviator62]

Yamagata Ken,
yes a maldrop on a fully kitted heavy drop could indeed result in a fireball, especially if the ammo went off as well. I believe there are/were videos of this very thing. Dragartist is better placed than I to comment on the latest thinking ref fuel for airdrop loads.

[ancientaviator62]

Nimbev, Green Night,
as the one who may have started the mature a/c post, perhaps I can explain what I meant. My main gripe was that MOD thought that by buying a proven 'off the shelf' a/c they did not need much in the way of spares. Of course the UK fiddled about with this 'off the shelf' buy to such an extent that our E/H (take your pick) became a completely new model, the 'K' (short for UK).
Many airforces had successfully operated the C130 in various marks before we got ours. For example the Indonesians were using them during Confrontation when we were still using the already obsolete Beverley and Hastings.
The FSII fiasco has already been mentioned but it is absolutely typical of MOD bean counters that the concept of spending a penny today to save a fortune tomorrow escaped them. And probably still does, alas.

[ksimboy]

I recall the video of the MSP drop as part of an exercise mounted from Carlisle. As the load failed to land correctly the film crew were approaching the crater, just as the rounds started cooking off, credit to the cameraman for holding camera facing the explosions as he legged it!

[smujsmith]

Nimbev #1820,

I was one of six techies who were the founding members of the Corrosion Control Team (CCTV/Tank Rats) at Colerne, in late 1972. Our task was to "blend out" corrosion in the wings (particularly the fuel tanks), take a full measure of such blends, and produce a map of the (damage) resulting. This allowed the structural authority to decide the status, and future operability of the wings in the aircraft. I well remember one Saturday evening (yes, we worked weekends too) using a 30,000 RPM air grinder on a small "bleb" of exfoliation in the No3 Dry bay, as soon as a small amount of pressure was applied to the head, the grinder, then my hand disappeared through the wing (the titanium heat shields were removed at that time to allow external inspection). It resulted in an 8 inch diameter hole through the bottom of the mainplane, I believe this might have been the damage subsequently shown to the delivery crew. One thing for certain, the corrosion, as I understood it, was not the product of Cladosporium Resinae, or any other external influence. ISTR at the time that most in the engineering world clearly identified the corrosion as developing from within the material. The thinking, even at that time, was that the C130 had a finite design life, vastly short of that envisaged by the politicians who decided to buy i Having spent many hours "blending" I have to say that the way it went was as follows;

We first did a survey of the interior of the fuel tanks, all signs of degradation(often a "bleb" of 1/16 of an inch diameter) were logged and recorded. We then began the rectification. Using a fine emery on the grinder to start we often found that as we worked the 1/16 bleb became a 2 inch diameter crater. When the corrosion was removed, we honed (polished) the resulting pit, then measured and recorded the result. As the outside of the wing was similarly treated, the resulting map gave a decent indication of structural degradation.

I was posted to Akrotiri in 1973, thankfully, but I understand that the whole fleet had the wings replaced not long after. As a result, by the time I returned to Albert, all was well.

Greenknight has some valid points about USAF, etc, experience with the C130. The C130K was a "different beast" to anything the U.S. Forces used. Many avionics systems were replaced, and subsequently their electrical supply systems etc. The -15 Allisons were different again from the more standard -7As of its C130E predecessor (as was the C130H from the K). Either way, I doubt any poster on here would deride either version of this fabulous aircraft. Wherever I've been fortunate enough to travel around the globe, it's always been a pleasure spending time debating the engineering problems of the C130, of all varieties, at the end of the day with fellow support people, though, there's not many techies I've met who dislike the aircraft. Sorry if I've bored anyone with tecky stuff, but I felt it was relevant to how this discussion is developing.

Smudge:ok:

[dragartist]

Ksim,
I recall said video was a Pinz and trailer loaded with live 88mm mortar rounds. Ex purple something or other. It was a JATE camera man who dived into a hollow leaving his camera running. Big Paul (can't recall his surname) was on the MALDROP party and can be seen walking around quite nonchalantly having a gander. As the rounds started to go off he began walking away slowly. I would have ran! The DZ was up at Otterburn. The next day Paul came down to Newton Abbott with me catching up with zeds in the back of the Astra. He was not much good at the Torquay grab a granny that night.


I am surprised these video's have not yet shown up on You Tube. (the airdrop not the grab a granny with the cattle prod)


Re the fuel. Yes a big move from petrol to diesel. Vehicle tanks were never more than 3/4 full. AA62 is absolutely correct over max out with side stores on ops. In many cases this exceeded the cleared weight and particularly the CoG which was quite critical.


The jerry cans may have been mandatory stores on this particular load to get the CoG in the middle. Ammo boxes filled with gravel were preferred.


I think I have previously recounted the issues we had when we tried to bring back HSP! I hope the remaining one finished up at the Airborne collection at Duxford. Does anyone know if there is an MSP preserved. There were a couple at JATE in May this year when I went to the reunion.

[ksimboy]

Drag,
The big question is are there videos of the drop in France when no-one told the crews it was a climbing dz and as the platforms departed, working as advertised, right up until the anti swing chute (not fully deployed) failed to fully retard the swing. It was ok though the French countryside did that. Much merriment at the campsite in Toulouse at the sight of many land rovers/trailers arriving on flat beds looking as flat as something from a cartoon. Happy days indeed.

[nimbev]

Smuj

The thinking, even at that time, was that the C130 had a finite design life, vastly short of that envisagedI bow to your superior knowledge re the Corrosion Control Team at Colerne in late '72, but I was talking about the corrosion problem in mid '69 when the aircraft were only 12 - 18 months old. I am not aware that any other C130 operator had the same problem in which case the cause could hardly have been a design problem, could it? Unless not adding a manufacturer approved and recommended additive could be seen as a design problem.

I left the Herc fleet at the end of '71 so perhaps I have missed part of the story!

[GreenKnight121]

Lockheed Service News magazine #29 July-August 1961 special "fuel tank corrosion" issue (the entire 7-article 15-page issue was devoted to the problem). This addresses the microbiological contamination and corrosion. According to the article:
Within the past year, fuel tank corrosion induced by microbiological contamination of jet fuels has become one of the most all encompassing problems ever encountered by airplane operators and manufacturers.

The problem is industry wide. The effects have been felt by virtually everyone concerned with jet aircraft.http://www.c-130hercules.net/LSN/No29.pdf


The RAAF signed a contract for 12 C-130As in October 1957, which were all delivered by March 1959.

During the early 1960s all of the RAAF's C-130As were flown to the United States to receive new wing fuel tanks after the original tanks were affected by corrosion caused by tropical fungi and bacteria. Later that decade these aircraft received new panels on the upper surface of their wings after the original ones were found to be faulty.

[ancientaviator62]

Green Knight,
thank you for that informative post. I believe that MOD were told about the potential problem and that the addition of FSII would help in this respect. That they chose to not to accept this advice could only be on 'penny pinching' grounds. Before the bulk issue of fuel with FSII we used to carry a 44 gallon drum of the stuff and hand blend it over wing using a Kelson pump !
The bottom line is that the C130 in whatever mark, (Multi Role Capable Aircraft) is the greatest airlifter ever built. Without it we in the UK could not have carried out many of the ops we were sent to do.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HSP_zps6f445d90.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HSP_zps6f445d90.jpg.html)

No caption on the back of this but pretty sure it is 'my' HSP on the way to a happy landing. I am sure dragartist will put me right !

[dragartist]

Ah, Ksim, I know the event in France you mention. would have been in my early days at JATE. I know the Maldrop party came back traumatised (I think it would have been Capt Pete G*****) where the MSPs dropped long into the hillside. They consider them selves lucky not to have been squashed. I think it was a night drop. They heard but did not see them coming.


I went down to CAP Toulouse and remember the French putting on a show from the Transal and 130 with lots of troop chutes used for heavy drop. Clusters of 20 or so chutes all tangled up. Us Brits clapped and cheered and went back to le chateau for more shampoo with blackcurrant juice and soft chees on small squares of bread.


AA62- That chevron shape is quite landmark and features in some of my own photos from a few years after your HSP.

[smujsmith]

Nimbev#1827,

I'm sure that I never meant to insinuate that Lockheed had ever designed the aircraft to be "short of legs" with regard to time capability. My belief is simply that the material used to manufacture the wings, was sub standard, of dubious quality, and may well have been the cause of both the RAF and prior RAAF corrosion problems. Greenknight's description of replacing RAAF fuel tanks sounds very like re skinning of the wings (the fuel tanks were all integral) apart from the Aux (bag) tanks. Certainly, the vast majority of the stuff I ground away originated from the Middle, not the surface of the wing plank material. My post referred to thinking, at Colerne, the major servicing unit in the early 70s, that the corrosion problem was the result of impurities, or poor production of the material used to manufacture the wings of the aircraft. I well remember someone telling me that when they melted the "Aloominum" saucepans, they forgot to take the Bakelite handles off them. It wouldn't be the first time I'm sure. The problem was resolved later when new wings were fitted, and Albert became the aircraft we all know and love. I wonder if any aircraft has ever entered service, without such hiccups ? I'm sure few can claim that distinction, yet, throughout the corrosion problems of the late 60s/ early 70s Albert continued to do the job, and brought the Royal Air Force transport fleet into the realms of modern capability. As always, apologies for the long post, I must say, that AA62 shot looks like a bullseye.

Smudge:ok:

[GreenKnight121]

Well, like the British issue with the material the main wing spars of their V-bombers (especially the Valiants) were made of becoming more brittle sooner than planned, there is plenty of documentation of the material of C-130 wings.

The C-130A used basically the aluminium grades used by the B-29s, etc-which had stood up well. However, before production of the C-130E began is was learned that the stresses experienced by a tactical airlifter were different than those of a high-altitude strategic bomber (much like the change in stresses when the RAF went to low-level operations with the V-force), and cracks in wing spars and the center wing box were being found much earlier than expected.

This led to the C-130E wings being constructed with different alloys - ones designed to hold up better. The earlier models had "doublers' added in many points in their wing structures to enable them to serve longer (more below).

The C-130Hs had yet another material change, as the C-130Es also eventually began to be fitted with "doublers" - although fewer in number.



I learned all this doing research after the 2002 crash of a civilian-operated fire-tanker C-130A - the center wing box failed, and both wings broke off in flight - the crash was filmed, and can be found on youtube.

The cause was found to be corrosion-amplified fatigue cracks in the original structure, which had been hidden from inspection by the doublers - the only way to find these cracks would be to periodically drill out the rivets holding the doublers in place to expose the underlying material, then re-rivet the doublers back into place.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/GAN2_zps6e90f56f.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/GAN2_zps6e90f56f.jpg.html)

Gan,
as the advert used to put it 'the RAF's own island in the sun ' For those that may not be familiar it is located at the southern end of the Maldives. No doubt a search engine trawl will provide the history etc.

[ancientaviator62]

Green Knight,
thank you for another very interesting post. If the 'E' and the 'H' had different material in the wing it begs the question of what the RAF 'K' was constructed from ! As a mere loadmaster I became interested in the a/c structure and the corrosion problems when, as was my habit on route, I read about it in the relevant AP in the a/c library. I had not known till then of the variety of alloy used in the C130 structure.
The SNCO i/c the Structures Bay very kindly indulged my curiosity and showed my some rather alarming bits of mouldy a/c and the constant battle with the problem. Many other a/c will have no doubt suffered at one time or another as the battle of weight versus strength was fought out in the design offices.

[OldAgeandTreachery]

Smudge.
I think you will find that Albert was not the only one suffering from corrosion. The Nimrod also had a big problem with wing corrosion and many manhours were expended trying to eliminate what effectively was eating metal from the inside and by the time it was seen,on the surface, it was pretty bad.The Lockheed P3 Orion, ISTR, had similar corrosion problems too.
If memory serves me; It was the method of construction of the wings which caused the bother. The corrosion had a particular name but my grey matter refuses to retrieve it.

[smujsmith]

OA & T,

Of course you are correct. All aircraft suffer from corrosion in one form or another. Certainly, the type of corrosion experienced in the original supplied mainplanes met all the requirements of Exfoliation corrosion;

"Exfoliation corrosion is a special form of intergranular corrosion which occurs when the grains are flattened by heavy deformation during hot or cold rolling, and where no recrystallization has occurred. Exfoliation is characteristic for the 2000 (Al-Cu), 5000 (Al-Mg), and 7000 (Al-Zn-Mg) series alloys which have grain boundary precipitation or depleted grain boundary regions." Credits to Keytometals.com.

Your reference to the Nimrod, and it's associated corrosion problems are directly related to the aircrafts operating environment, salt water, and despite the wash at the end of the sortie, ultimately proved not up to defeating Mr Atmospheric corrosion;

Atmospheric corrosion is defined as the corrosion or degradation of material exposed to the air and its pollutants rather than immersed in a liquid. This has been identified as one of the oldest forms of corrosion and has been reported to account for more failures in terms of cost and tonnage than any other single environment. Many authors classify atmospheric corrosion under categories of dry, damp, and wet, thus emphasizing the different mechanisms of attack under increasing humidity or moisture.

Corrosivity of the atmosphere to metals varies greatly from one geographic location to another, depending on such weather factors as wind direction, precipitation and temperature changes, amount and type of urban and industrial pollutants, and proximity to natural bodies of water. Service life may also be affected by the design of the structure if weather conditions cause repeated moisture condensation in unsealed crevices or in channels with no provision for drainage. Credits Keytometals.com

There's a huge difference in what was experienced with Alberts first wings, and the "usual run of the mill" corrosion problems. I'm sure that many might have different opinions, but having been involved in the very expensive attempts by the "RAF to repair a lost cause", I honestly feel that better quality control in producing the material might well have elicited a more favourable outcome. I'm pretty sure that we have now done this subject to death (I hope so), I'm sure that many operators are reading this and saying "what is he blathering on about?".

I look forward to Chickenlover, AA62 and all those others who, unlike me, saw fit to take a decent camera down route with them. Meanwhile, Gan looks worthy of a paid visit, though a posting there in the 70s would have found some resistance.

A question for the drivers, no doubt one that will be ignored as usual. Having jumped in the back of many a different airframe, heading down route, and, having some experience in flying gliders, I wonder if pilots were aware of any peculiarities of any particular aircraft (Trembling Two for example (XV222))? I know I have flown different gliders of the same designation, that certainly "felt" different in handling. So, did our pilots maintain a note of different aircraft within the fleet? We're the SF designated airframes truly bent ? I'm sure that many might be interested in the handling qualities of Albert, me for one, and only those who operated them regularly can offer any material on that.

Smudge:ok:

[herkman]

I well remember whilst on duty crew in the early 60's watching an A model that had just come of its first major service, unload all over the hardstand about 30.000 lb of fuel. We tried to defuel it but was running out quicker than we could suck it out.

When the greater part was either back in the tanker, or it had stopped leaking from the wing, we towed year to more remote spot and allowed her to drip dry.

In this case the leaks were caused by microbes that loved the talk sealant.

When Mr Lockheed turned up we found that the IAF were the only operator who did not have the problem.

IAF staff it turned out were using the pogo stick to capture the fuel from the wing sumps to take home for their stoves. Needless to say the microbes went with the drainers.

REGARDS

[smujsmith]

HERKMAN,

Ahh, the pogo stick, and the poly bag. Many a morning I've spent doing water seds, and trying to work out how to dispose of the results. Dakar in Senegal often attracted an audience, more than willing, to relieve me of the burden. RAF Germany was another matter, despite the words of hardship from the "linie's" at Wildenrath, none offered to make use of my samples. Usually dumped in the Houchin cable stowage bay. I agree though that water sed was an important part of "looking after your Albert", and having seen some real crud in the sample bag, made a point of doing the checks religiously. I assume IAF is Indian, not Israeli Air Force.

Smudge:ok:

[GreenKnight121]

OK, aa62 - I've looked it up, and I wasn't 100% correct in my memory -but I was close.

Here is what I was (slightly mis-) remembering:
Hidden Fatigue Cracks Suspected in C130 Fire-Fighter Wing-Loss (http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Publications/Legal_Issues/PearblossomC130.html)
The prototype C-130A fuselage was made of 7075-T6 alloy aluminum. The T6 temper gives high strength, but the fuselage cyclic tests quickly showed it is susceptible to fatigue, leading to hundreds of failures, three of which would have been catastrophic. Lockheed changed the fuselage skin to fatigue-tolerant 2024-T3 aluminum and redesigned the structure to reduce stress.

But they did not change the wing center box alloy, which was 7075-T6. The C-130B and original C-130E center boxes remained 7075-T6, but poor results in the C-130E fatigue test, in which the center box lower skin suffered the most damage, caused a change of material to more fatigue-tolerant 7075-T7531, as well as a redesign to reduce stress by 20%. The wing center section continues to be a life-limiting part for newer C-130s.

[ancientaviator62]

GreenKnight,
thank you for the update. So if I understand correctly the RAF 'K' version had the original spec metal. The question then is did the UK know about all of this ? And what is the 'J' made of ? This is what I like about this thread I always learn something on nearly every post. Thanks to you all.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/GAN2_zps6e90f56f.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/GAN2_zps6e90f56f.jpg.html)

Another view of Gan. If you had to do an unaccompanied tour Gan was preferable to Khormaksar or Masirah. At least you could get to Singapore on R and R. Hands up all those who have been there.

[WIDN62]

Smudge,

I am sorry you think the "drivers" are ignoring you!
XV200 (it might possibly have been 300 thinking about it) was the only one that was seriously bent and we know who bent it! If it had been fully tested we would have had to lower the crosswind limit by quite a bit. All the rest handled very much the same as each other. You have to bear in mind the huge difference between a transport aircraft and a glider - you are much more likely to be flying close to the aircraft's limits in a glider and therefore much more likely to detect small differences in handling.

[smujsmith]

WIDN62,

Oh dear no, I hope you don't think I accused anyone of ignoring me, or anyone else on this thread. There's a lot of input, and some gets missed, it's never a problem. I agree that there was a huge degree of difference in flying Albert and flying a glider. I will never forget watching pilots putting in huge handfuls of aileron, and then immediately opposing it on the approach. Such a control input on a glider would have put it on its back, Albert barely twitched. Thanks for your post, it confirms that flying Albert was a real handful of aircraft.

Smudge:ok:

[GreenKnight121]

aa62: The way the article is phrased makes me think that the center-box material change was part-way through the C-130E production run - I'm not sure quite when.

[ancientaviator62]

GreenKnight,
I wonder if Lockheed would know. Having worked on a/c (Javelin,Hunter and Lightning) I do know that changes are sometimes introduced on the production line and not fully documented. This applies to cars of course as I well know !

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/GAN1_zpsf611d623.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/GAN1_zpsf611d623.jpg.html)

Finals at Gan. Looking forward to beer, chip butties and a raucous game of table top football.

[Sook]

The C-130Ks underwent a Centre Wing change out programme in the late 70s/early 80s.

[Brian W May]

Chips and sausage in the Blue Lagoon?

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
much easier to play 'team' table football with one hand and a chip buttie or beer in the other !

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/CREWWITHMEOTRIBESMEN_zps7e1904cd.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/CREWWITHMEOTRIBESMEN_zps7e1904cd.jpg.html)

Not sure if we have had this pic before. If so apologies !
Up country in Thailand with the Meo Tribesmen. They sold these bows and our singlies used to buy them to encourage the Changi mess cats to look for pastures new.

[Mal Drop]

It's fascinating to see just how much my generation of operators (late 1980s onwards) missed out on in the formative days of Albert's big RAF adventure, especially east of Aden. But I suppose that is part of an enduring cycle; in the early 2000s the younger folks just didn't believe the tales of Caribbean trainers, frequent Berlin night-stops (before the Wall came down), massive buffets laid-out on the Ranger Packs and 'Crazy Janes' being handed out as we taxyed-in to parking on the last leg of a Euro trainer.

Two thing are for certain: firstly, if I had my time over again and was offered any type out of training, it would still be the four-engined fun-bus of Her Majesties Heavier-than-Air Flying Machine and Glee Club; secondly, this thread is a wonderful way to recall 'Herc Life'.

[ancientaviator62]

Mal Drop,
we who were flying in Transport Command/Air Support Command during the sixties onwards were indeed fortunate. We went to lots of exotic places and some of us even had the pleasure of an overseas tour. Great days for which I am truly grateful.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000104A_zpse99371fb.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000104A_zpse99371fb.jpg.html)

When I was on the group examining unit for the 'K' we were fortunate to do annual inspection visits to SOAF and the RMAF. In this pics our hosts have taken us shopping in Melaka (Malacca). A few more pics of scenery if anyone is interested.

[smujsmith]

Mal Drop,

Did I almost detect a "frisson" of Mon Cherie in that last post ? Remember the bath appearing from under the stage ? And certainly the dets where we enjoyed the Grand Barbados were memorable, likewise the now defunct Bermudiana (I still have some pool towels from that hotel (the Loady gave them to me)) honest :rolleyes: Like you, I'm entranced by AA62's photographs and reminiscences from the early days, Chickenlover has also posted some great shots that belong in this record of many years of service, not only the aircraft but the people who operated, maintained and supported it for all those years. I'm sure there is more out there to be "exposed", and hopefully all feel free to get stuck in.

AA62 #1851, as Mal Drop was saying, we of the late 80s early 90s were unfortunate in not getting such great places to visit. Those crossbows look lethal.

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

I came across something today that I thought might be of wider interest ... it seems RAF Albert was also a bit of a Philatelist :ooh:

The 'Cover' is for the 30th Anniversary of the C-130K in RAF Service ... With a 'Franking' dated 15th July 2004 celebrating 52 years Service :confused:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/FullSizeRender_zps28db4ef1.jpg

AA62 ... It would seem that you chaps were asked to carry such consignments from time to time ... presumably in aid of Service Charities ?

A couple of others I found ...

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/FullSizeRender2_zps8126e1b7.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/FullSizeRender3_zps9306e73b.jpg

A few crew names are mentioned ...

Best ...

Coff.

PS. Glad to see the thread is still going strong ... and still we have newcomers joining in :D

[smujsmith]

Just reading a book by Dennis Williams - Stirlings in action with Airborne Forces, and interestingly, whilst on a larger scale, seems to offer a blue print for the development of SF support to SAS,SBS etc in modern times. 620 and 190 Squadrons operating from Fairford are the focus of the book which is very reasonably priced, particularly on Kindle. It's interesting to see where the likes of the Hereford Hooligans feel they can stroll about in enemy occupied territory, unmolested.

Coff, nice work on the first day covers, I reckon my missing Nav bag contains at least one example of your post. I feel the need to re stimulate Mrs Smudge, award myself a "wee dram" and once more hold the ladder as she bravely ascends :eek:

Smudge:ok:

[Kengineer-130]

I have some good footage of a number of vc10 prodding sorties & some good low level action from the Falklands circa 2005/6 if anyone would be interested? :ok: what's the score with posting videos that identify Crew members etc?

[GreenKnight121]

The 'Cover' is for the 30th Anniversary of the C-130K in RAF Service ... With a 'Franking' dated 15th July 2004 celebrating 52 years Service.

Yes - 30 in RAF, 52 for the type itself anywhere.


Yes, you lot bought into a 22 year-old aircraft! ;)

[ancientaviator62]

Just got back from the Classic Car show at the NEC and catching up.
The first day covers are familiar to me. W/C Baynes was OC 48 at Lyneham after I had left it. I think one of the others is a 30 Sqn one when W/C Guest was OC.
Des Hill was a Nav Flt. Cdr on 47.
I have (or did have) one somewhere with my name on it. 30 did a lot of these.
I have been sent a PM asking if a certain tale is correct. As it is out of the 'you could not make it up' file I am giving my memory a chance to catch up.
However I have two questions for the readership.
Does anyone remember the TV series 'Squadron' ?
Do any of the Herc aircrew/groundcrew remember the little paxolin notice under the steps leading up to the flight deck ? It said 'No handhold', or words to that effect. The relevance of these questions will become clear when I relate the tale.
GreenKnight,
we did indeed buy a a 22 ye old design but it was the best for the job. I once had a brand new VW Beetle in 1973 and look how old that design was.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Remember it (Squadron)? I was in it.

Before my aircrew days I was on holiday in Akrotiri (TASF) for three years, even more of a holiday as this was the early eighties and all traffic was going southwest which meant that AKI Hours were stricly enforced so as not to encroach on our beach time. Been looking for this series to come out on DVD for years, c'mon BBC you've got the first season of "Warship" out there so why not "Squadron". Most of the on ground pan scenes were shot on A Dispersal and I do remember going in on standby one Saturday and helping to setup and then set off the various sim munitions scattered around the bondu. In the first episode where the Herc is seen overflying the archeological dig site, I was standing behind the late great Chas Finn-Kelsey as we overflew the set area, up by the Kart Club, several times. I was also quite into photography at that point and managed to piggy back on a photoshoot for the Radio Times taking place on the wing of the C-130 with the delightful Catriona MacColl who played the RAF Doc, Flt Lt Susan Young. Think I still have a 373 Sqn embroidered patch somewhere. :ok:

Of course these days, instead of the bikini she was wearing, she would have denims, full body harness and a dayglo jacket to even venture her head out of the roof escape hatch. Is H&S wonderful?

AA62 Could you be referring to the episode that had the Groundcrew SNCO hiding in the AV bay and interferring with the flying control runs?

[CoffmanStarter]

Cue theme music :ok:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y46FuRCGUoI

Tony Isaac Band - Squadron

Theme tune to the very short-lived BBC drama from 1982. "Squadron". The series dealt with the adventures of 373 Rapid Deployment Squadron of the Royal Air Force. The Squadron operated a mix of operational RAF aircraft including the Harrier GR Mk 3, Hercules C Mk 1, Puma HC Mk 1 and the first episode, Phantom FGR Mk 2. One series of ten episodes was made. The leading cast members included Michael Culver, Malcolm Stoddard, Derek Anders, and Catriona MacColl.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Coff - Def 373 not 370 Sqn, patch has a nice pink flamingo on it.

[CoffmanStarter]

TBT ... Sorry, my bad ... fat fingers again :ok:

[Dougie M]

For reasons best known to others it was decided that the "Squadron" U.K. H.Q. was to be filmed in the Duckpond Briefing Room in STS at Lyneham.
Imagine our surprise on arrival back from a 3 ship sortie to find a bunch of lubberly looking "senior officers" slouched in the debriefing facility. The Ops staff were all excited that a film crew were in there. We were less so.
It was about the time when the legendary Chas F-K received his M.B.E. for penning Rompers Green and his little joke as technical advisor on set was to award everybody with the Order. The Squadron Warrant Officer wore the B.E.M. the Ops Officer the M.B.E. O.C. Ops the O.B.E. and the Staish wore the C.B.E. The whole lot were a riot of pink and white ribbons.
When the filming required wooly pullies it became impossible to determine who to salute so we went "no hats" till they left.
The Navy did great P.R. with Warship but I fear that "Fighter Pillock" with M***** Ox****** and "Squadron" were buttock clenchingly embarrassing. Oh for the moral fibre of "The Dambusters"!

[ancientaviator62]

TBT,
I am indeed referring to the episode you have mentioned. Before I start my story just a reminder that if anyone has better info please speak up. I do not have my 'faithful friend' to jog my memory. It was all a long time ago and so this tale may come out in more than one post. No teasing intended just a slowish recollection of the facts. Perhaps you could refrain from commenting until my tale is done. That way I will not get sidetracked and miss out something relevant.
First let me clear up one point. In the episode referred to it was a G/E committing these acts. In real life it was a loadmaster. I was told they rewrote history (as they always do) because the storyline would have more credence if a tech tradesman was involved.
The incidents in question occurred on 48 Sqn at Changi whilst I was on the squadron. I was not on any of the trips(there were several) involved but the chap who blew the whistle was. He was a loadmaster too and I had his story first hand. So unless he is lurking on this thread then my recollection may be as good as you are going to get.
We were having a/c divert due to ramp lock problems (been here before) uncommanded throttle and control movements and weirdest of all the Utility hydraulic system reservoir sight glass breaking.
One of the problems in sorting through this mix of incidents was that the first three were not unknown although not common (even the ramp locks were being sorted) but the sight glass breakages were unique as far as I am aware. I never had one, not even in the days of inflight top ups of the system (which idiot designed the filler cap and neck !)
TBC

[WIDN62]

Some sad news for those around on the fleet in the 70s and 80s - see the "Where Are They Now" Forum.

[Brian W May]

Rather than draw it out, ex Sqn Ldr Mike Doggart (Dograt) has passed.

So sad, I knew him when he was a flight commander on 47 Sqn and he was an absolute star, nice guy and an absolute pleasure to fly with.

Met again on Airtours/MyTravel DC10. Lovely man. RIP sir.

[Alison Conway]

I am very sorry to hear of Mick's passing, he was a lovely man. It is also my sad duty to inform those on this forum who were around at the same time of the passing of John Bell. John helped me and many others. As a Sqn Cdr and then Stn Cdr he was always the aviator's friend and kept his sense of humour even at elevated ranks. May you both rest easy at your new squadrons, several cold ones to be hoisted in memory. RIP gentlemen.

[ancientaviator62]

I too am saddened by hearing of the passing of those two chaps. I did not know Mike so well but had many dealings with John Bell over the years. He was a gentleman in the true sense of that now rather old fashioned word and will be sorely missed by all. RIP.

[ancientaviator62]

I have had a PM attempting to name the suspect in my current story. I would appreciate it if no such attempt was made. I will merely refer to him as the suspect because to the best of my recollection he was never charged much less convicted of any offence. I am recounting the events to set the record straight and to right a wrong that effectively defamed the G/E branch.
I think it first came to light on a para sortie. Normally such a task had a PJI and a loadmaster as despatchers an a loadmaster on intercom as the front/back link.
After a drop and the two despatchers were tidying up the a/c the suspect who was the loadmaster went forward to the galley to get water for the despatchers. All para could be hot and sweaty work especially in FEAF.
The loadmaster despatcher happened to look up and believed he saw the suspect put his hand through the flight deck steps and briefly fiddle with the controls that run under there. On the way back to base he confronted him and the reply was to the effect that he had slipped and was grabbing at the first thing that came to hand. Not convinced, after landing he conferred with the captain who reported the incident up the squadron chain.
This resulted in the suspect being grounded and his log book impounded for checking.
The results were not quite clear cut. In respect of the Utility Hydraulic sight glass breakages only trips where he was the loadmaster had so suffered.
However although the majority of cases concerning the throttles and flying controls did have him as the loadmaster there were others that did not. The Lockheed rep confirmed that rigging problems could indeed cause such symptoms. As for the ramp locks well the problems with those were well documented although better rigging instructions had reduced the incidents considerably. I had one climbing out of Changi. I had cargo on the ramp and was accused of having an asymmetric load on the ramp. I did but pointed out that it was well within the limits laid down in AP 101B-0701-11D. I heard no more about it.
However his log book contained entries that did not match the auth sheets.
In other words he was recording trips that others, not he had done.
It was on these grounds that his suspension from flying was justified and he worked in the squadron ops whilst we went short handed in the loadmaster section.
TBC

[Dougie M]

I would also like to express my regrets at the passing of two sterling gentleman aviators. The tales on the Flight about Dograt remain "Shags Only" but as CNI John Bell was asked to do a drop check on me at short notice. The debrief went " I don't know how you can follow a wriggly line on a map for 2 hours and get a bulls eye within 3 seconds of the P hour...Shall we call that B maintained"
Sorely missed both of them
Dougie M

[Brian W May]

Slight hijack to thread but worth it.

Last met John Bell masquerading as a Flt Lt in the RAuxAF at Lyneham.

Another sad loss, however there are worse things than being respected and liked as JB and Dograt were.

RIP gentlemen.

[MPN11]

Sad to hear about Dograt ... I had the pleasure of being in the same group as him when we were doing ASC in 1986. He brightened many a day [and evening] with his presence.

[ancientaviator62]

The SIB became involved at an early stage as did the medics in the form of a 'trick cyclist'. The suspect would disappear from the ops room presumably for interviews and then reappear as jaunty as ever. We found it very odd but he appeared to revel in his new found 'fame'. After a few months he was posted back to the UK, to I think Innsworth, whilst the system tried to come to a decision. We got on with our lives and heard no more about him which lends credence to my belief that he was never charged in connection with these incidents. I suspect he was probably given a medical discharge on mental health grounds.
So why was he not subject to disciplinary action ? We all did wonder about that and it was not until I was doing the Law of Evidence as part of my law degree that the penny finally dropped. All of the evidence against him was circumstantial apart from the one instance when the other loadmaster saw him fiddling with the controls. After I retired I did A level Psychology (to keep my brain ticking over) and discovered that 'eye witness testimony ' was not the gold standard we all thought it was. Several experiments had demonstrated that it could not always be relied upon.
The evidence compiled from the auth sheets, Incident reports and his log
book was not in itself conclusive for reasons mentioned in an earlier post. As for the false log bok entries, the end of the month scrum for the auth sheets would provide some excuse. Any half competent lawyer (there were some very competent lawyers in Singapore) would have shredded the DLS case.
I think only a confession may have sufficed.
Yet I and others did consider him guilty and in my final post on this saga I will attempt to explain why.

[ancientaviator62]

I thought the suspect guilty for several reasons. The testimony of the loadmaster who reported him I respected as I believed that what he saw was indeed a deliberate interference with the controls.
When we used to sit in the crewroom the suspect used to tell amusing stories of his experiences . The problem with this was that a great majority of these stories were either untrue or had happened to other people. I had served with him before and had heard the originals from others.
The clincher for me was his attitude when he was grounded. As I have mentioned before he seemed to delight in his 'fame' and made no attempt to challenge the system. He even wrote an article for the station magazine entitled 'Hydraulic 'X' ('X' = his christian name) !
If I had been accused as he was I would have asked to see the AOC and if that did not work then I would have initiated Redress of Grievance action. This cannot be ignored and it would have forced the system to come to a timely decision.
The other question of course is why did he do it ?
Yes he had some very nice unscheduled stops (Bali for a week for example) but I thought then, and time has only reinforced my belief, that he liked (needed ?) to be the centre of attention. Hence the crewroom tales etc.
Once these had grown stale he generated his own by the actions already mentioned. Once he started I think it became an addiction he could not kick.
That is the story to the best of my recollection from the events of 1971, an awfully long time ago.
Thank you for respecting my request in regard of questions until I had finished. I am now open for questions comments etc.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/37c4bb16-9cd9-433b-9848-131a33ba1dac_zps91dc63fe.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/37c4bb16-9cd9-433b-9848-131a33ba1dac_zps91dc63fe.jpg.html)

I know we have had this pic before but it puts some flesh on the bare bones of my story. Anyway I do like it and it somehow helped jog my memory.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

Thanks for sharing that tale of days gone by, and thanks for confirming the fact that the "miscreant" was indeed a member of Aircrew and not a Ground Tradesman or an AGE. I believe that I may have heard of this happening, many moons ago, but the tale I heard was a little different. What I heard was talk of an ALM of "sub continent" extraction who had pulled the control cables, in flight, during a route leg that was over his homeland. It was suggested that the crew performed a precautionary landing, as a result of the undemanded control input, and the ALM spent a week on the ground, with his relatives, as techies were delivered and tests were carried out. Is it possible that what I was told was a much modified version of your facts. Or was there another incident ?

Smudge:ok:

[GreenKnight121]

Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy (http://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases_conditions/hic_An_Overview_of_Factitious_Disorders/hic_Munchausen_Syndrome/hic_Munchausen_Syndrome_by_Proxy)

Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy, aviation edition.

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
I am only too pleased to exonerate the G/Es and set the record straight in respect of the incidents I described. I have heard several variations of my story over the years and like the oral myths of old the tale becomes more embroidered every time it is recounted. I think your version is one of those as I do not know of anyone who was actually there. This is always a test for these type of sagas.
Yes GreenKnight it could be read across as a variant of that syndrome but I would leave that the the experts.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/FEAF30002_zpsa64fda99.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/FEAF30002_zpsa64fda99.jpg.html)

A UK visitor to 48 probably out for the Exercise Bersatu Padu.

[dragartist]

AA62, Was the Bristol Freighter one of the NZ AF ones?


Re your story about the control cable fiddler. I was still at school in 71 but I do recall a tale from the 80s going around about someone with a pair of wire cutters. Clearly a variation on the theme. Not another one surely.


Drag

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
yes the RNZAF 'frighteners' were based at Changi on the pan opposite us. Did a couple of trips with them and they well deserved their other appellation of Bristol 'Vibrator'. Still they served the Kiwis well.
Ref your 'cable cutter' tale I vaguely recall something of the kind but not airborne and perhaps not the Herc.

[dragartist]

AA62,
When I was at school in Singapore 1968/9 played rugby with the Kiwis and a few Aus. They were far better than us Brits.


Small world on here Gouldie also played Rugby for the RMAF with my Dad.


The cutter tale was probably form my passive EW days. They call it ISTAR now.

[Null Orifice]

AA62 & Smudge


I was a SNCO propulsion (sounds much posher than 'engines' ) trade supervisor on 48 at the time of the control input 'interferences' and was personally involved, along with airframe SNCO colleagues, in three (or four?) investigations after aircrews reported these un-commanded control inputs. At the time, each instance was considered a potentially serious technical issue.
Many man-hours were spent in efforts to find the cause, including extensive investigation/replacement of elevator booster packs, bleeding of hydraulic circuits and a detailed inspection of control system components. One particular line of investigation led to the discovery of damage to a non-metallic pulley wheel on a cable tensioner situated above the 'hogs trough' in the roof of the forward part of the freight bay. The grooved pulley had a piece of its rim missing; an extensive search to find the broken piece was fruitless. We suspected that the broken piece probably fell onto the cargo that had been unloaded before we began our work. No other fault was found on this, or any of the other reported instances that I was involved in.
After the loadmaster situation became general knowledge in the ground engineering flight office, it was mooted that the damaged pulley could possibly have been caused by a person standing on the cargo, then giving a sharp downward pull on the cable running through the tensioners, the side-loading of that force damaging the pulley in the process. I never experienced another instance of a damaged tensioner pulley up to that time, or subsequently, in my ten years on the Hercules fleet. I have no knowledge of any incident allegedly involving cable cutters.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Extraordinary story AA62, thanks for that


I suppose I'll have to wait 20 or 30 years before I can spill the beans on my time on Hercs.


In the meantime, can anyone relate, first hand, the story of Bostik Bob. I have had it from the horse's mouth, but that is not always the most true account! Maybe Top Bunk Tester could have a stab at it?

[smujsmith]

Well, as we seem to be in to the area of espionage, intrigue and sabotage, perhaps a tale from White team, RAF Colerne, circa 1971 might add spice to "goings on". This is not speculation, rumour or hype, I was there, this happened.

White team was one of two of the six "second line" C130 servicing teams based at RAF Colerne at that time that was charged with carrying out Base 3 servicing of the C130K, the other four did Base 2 (Minor servicing). Base 3 was a month long major service on the aircraft that later became the major servicing carried out by Marshalls of Cambridge. I had arrived on the team from RAF Halton as an ex Craft Aprrentice, Junior Technician A Fitt A. Around 1971 we were seeing the increase in IRA threat and action, and hearing rumour that certain bases, Brize, Lyneham, Colerne, Benson and Abingdon (all involved in transport operations in to NI) were directly threatened by the terrorist organisation. So, imagine the reaction of our SNCOs and Officers when on a Monday morning the words "UP THE IRA" were found scrawled across the "****e" on the cargo door of our newly recieved aircraft, awaiting a pre service wash. All agreed that it wasn't there last night, so must have been done after the aircraft arrived for servicing. As a Jnr Tech, I then became the usual mushroom, but like every other tradesman on White team, was interviewed by the SIB as to my knowledge of the origin of the wording. Nothing came of these interviews, and the servicing continued.

As the servicing went along, a few "funny" things happened. An engine man reported that overnight a 16 lead plug had been cut off (by snips) and dumped in the bottom of the engine nacelle. An hydraulic line to the Utility system was found crimped, by what was assumed to be standard pliers, and finally all the exposed wiring to the Aux system Ramp and door controls were found cut one morning. Back came our SIB chums.

Surprisingly, when they finally got to the bottom of it, the miscreant was not really an IRA sympathiser, more likely someone with the same mental problems as AA62s former colleague. Surprisingly he was a Corporal, of some experience, and not of Irish, but Welsh extraction, he claimed he was acting in sympathy with his Northern Irish counterparts. I rather suspect I grew up a lot as a result of this occurrence, certainly it opened my eyes to the potential of the inside man. I know that there was a period of horrible suspicion across our team that caused a lot of social bother. The Cpl was "dealt with", we had no more incidents of sabotage in my time there thankfully. I doubt that Albert was the only service aircraft that suffered such actions.

Smudge:ok:

[Brian W May]

I was there then (on Black Team), but since I was never a Corporal, I don't need to worry about my reputation.

Phew . . .

[fergineer]

We had a time when I was on the line when formation lights were being smashed which gave a lot of work replacing them.

[ancientaviator62]

Null Orfice, smudge et al,
thank you for your posts reminding us all of the cost in man hours etc of these actions. I think the week in Bali that the suspect had was due to the a/c having a hydraulic flush etc. As I said the Utility sight glass breakages were the thing that caused me the most puzzlement. It would appear that my tale is the only one that involved incidents induced in flight.
Once found the IRCM box completely disconnected when doing the preflight on a 'Banner' flight . But that was a cock up which I may bore you with later.
I have found a few more black and white pics of my time on 48. The one below is of 'aa' as a very young man taken in the very crewroom on 48 where our suspect held court. Taken by our local newspaper back home of 'our boys serving overseas'.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/BILLCHANGI0002_zpsdca93abb.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/BILLCHANGI0002_zpsdca93abb.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

NATO Standard Knees there AA62 old chap ;)

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
please get the terminology correct. SEATO standard brown knees !

[Null Orifice]

Good looking lad, AA62! ;)

I do remember you. Fortunately, for the other K-fans here, my local rag weren't looking overseas for any Bristol boys to feature, so I remain (almost) incognito.
I did appear a few times in the dailys, in a recruiting ad for the RAF when I was on Javelins at Kuching - we didn't know for what purpose the pictures were to be used for at the time. Sadly, no royalties received!:(
Same location, I was also photographed in action (not with a weapon, just an Avpin bottle and the aircraft ladder) by a man from the Washington Post who promised copies, none ever arrived though.

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
did your father have anything to do with my second choice transport a/c, the Caribou ? When I was on the group EU we used to visit the RMAF annually on a two week standards inspection. I used to like spending most of my time with the Caribou squadron at Labuan.
However at the start of one visit not long after they received their Hercs I was asked to investigate a problem they were having re weighing their a/c. No good saying not my job, I had to get on with it. I had only seen our engineers do it once back at Lyneham . Off I went to see the re weighing team who were getting some flak about the problems. I have a very high regard for the personnel of the RMAF some of whom had been trained at Halton. It was obvious that my presence was resented as they naturally thought I had come to make them look stupid. The usual hospitality was lacking.
I had no clear idea of how to proceed so fell back on my tech training. I asked them how they went about the task and was shown the weighing kit which seemed not dissimilar to ours. I then asked to see the calibration charts.
There were none. The kit had been procured 'nth' hand by their bean counters.
They did not have a hangar big enough to put the Herc in and the pan on which the reweighing had to be done had a marked slope. None of this was
conducive to an accurate result. I looked at the result they had obtained and checked it against the delivery weight and index . It was markedly different.
So I asked for the other a/c details just as a comparison.
What a shock . All their a/c had the same basic weight and index ! This was impossible. They had been given a 'fleet mean' set of values. Not surprising on first reweigh the results were different.
I briefed the engineers on what I intended to report and the coffee appeared
as did an office to write it up my report. Really given the constraints under which they worked they were on a loser to nothing. I was just relieved to have found some way to explain what was going on.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000097A_zpsa6819360.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000097A_zpsa6819360.jpg.html)

No apologies for the pic of 'aa' and the 'Bou'. If it were not for being on the 'K' I would not have been there.

[ancientaviator62]

Null Orifice,
flattery will get you a beer next time we meet. I also am ex Javelins but UK only on 33 at Middleton St George. This is not the place to discuss the Sapphire's infamous centre line closure problems that you engine (it was still engines then) chaps had to deal with. Avpin ! Where was 'elfn safety' then ?
I am amazed we have any lungs left.

[CoffmanStarter]

Just came across this pic of Mrs T back in 77 while looking for something else ... clearly a presentation of some kind ... can anyone shed any more light on the occasion :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/FullSizeRender6_zps7042c994.jpg

Image Credit : Unknown

Best ...

Coff.

PS Good to see you chaps are still enjoying the Thread ... :)

[Wander00]

Whilst being a fan of Mrs T, I wonder why she is dressed as a gp capt - either under or over-ranked I feel!

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
it is too early for it to be anything to do with her Falklands trip so I am puzzled too. I think know the chap doing the presentation, fairly sure it is
Chris G....

[Wander00]

So she was not even PM then - she became PM when the Conservatives won the election in 1979

[ancientaviator62]

I assume it was a souvenir of a trip in the 'K' but what was her status at the time ?

[RAFEngO74to09]

AA62,
Found this. Mrs T gave a speech to 44 Para Bde at Lyneham on 20 Nov 77 and then took a flight on 21 Nov 77 - she was Conservative Party (Opposition) leader at the time:


Margaret Thatcher during a flight with the 44th Parachute Brigade, 21st November 1977. HEZ-1651986 © Keystone Archives (http://www.agefotostock.com/en/Stock-Images/Rights-Managed/HEZ-1651986)


Speech to 44th Paratroop Brigade | Margaret Thatcher Foundation (http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/103463)

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks RAFEngO :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

RAFEngo,
many thanks for that Makes perfect sense now and good to see that she was flying with the TA paras. I doubt she did the whole 70 min sortie 'down the back' !

[Wander00]

That was before they wore ear defenders in the back of a Hercules then.............

[smujsmith]

Coff #1893,

Cracking picture, and nice to see a real politician for a change. The modern crop are shadows of her shadow I'm afraid. Those were the days, when you could actually believe that a politician "really" supported our servicemen.

AA62, We have to take your word for the "brown knees". It's hard to comment on "moonyism" from a black and white photo:eek:

Smudge :ok:

[k3k3]

James Callaghan wore Group Captain rank slides when he visited Brüggen in 76/77.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HERCASRA0002_zps2168b747.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HERCASRA0002_zps2168b747.jpg.html)

Another in the sequence of a few newly discovered black and white pics.
ASRA drop and you can clearly see the marine marker and the linked containers.
Shame on you smudge. Would I have posed for a publicity shot with 'get some time in' knees ? It would be very bad for the image !

[Brian W May]

Reminiscent of the later Lord Trophy events when we got to drop an ASRA set up.

Your photo Bill - OK, we fancy you (sharing the blacked out room in Masirah . . . you'll do, my last one was with Dave Ratcliffe) :p

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
oh yes the black out rooms at Masirah. And the shock to the system on opening the door to that intense sunlight. Yes I remember Dave and I also remember the Lord Trophy drops. One of my early posts includes pictures taken on a Lord Trophy 1 ton drop at El Adem.

[Brian 48nav]

There was a reference a few days ago to the passing of John, can anyone fill me in with the details - when? why etc?


I was on 4 course with John, he was about a year ahead of me and had spent I think a year on the Hastings including the OCU. After the course I went off to 48 and John to 24 at Lyneham. Amazingly in my subsequent 6 years on the Herc' I never ever bumped into him.


I gather after a tour with 24 he went to the Staff Nav' Course and stayed on as an instructor and then did the old Spec' N Course.


I have a feeling, possibly wrong, that he did not appear on the Herc' again until he became boss of 30 in Sept' '83.


I bumped into him on a couple of occasions at parties at Lyneham, ( wee George Brown often invited Anne and I to the Xmas Draw etc ) once when he was Staish.


Then years later, in 2009, I bumped into him at the market in Fleurance, Gers in France. He told me he was a keen cyclist and had just done the Cairo to Cape Town epic and was thinking of cycling from Perth WA to Darwin.


He came across as not having changed since he was a Fg Off in '67 - top man. Has he really gone?

[Brian W May]

See post 1868 - that's what we were going on.

JB was a hell of a nice bloke - some good stuff on YouTube of him sitting in the Nav seat discussing Herk operations. As I said earlier, I met him last on the Lyneham RAuxAF in about 2000.

Don't know anymore than is on the post 1868 - why not PM Alison Conway and see what you can find out.

[Brian W May]

John Bell video on YouTube :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWOfVKeE9NQ

[ancientaviator62]

I last met John when he was Air Attache in Delhi when we transited through supporting the Red Arrows. As we all agree a top bloke who will be sadly missed but fondly remembered..

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HERCCHANGI2_zps446b316c.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HERCCHANGI2_zps446b316c.jpg.html)

Another in the series from Changi. Looks like Inflight and the bowser are topping the a/c up. Why it is the opposite direction to the others escape me. Perhaps Null Orifice or one of the others can remind me.

[ancientaviator62]

I have just recalled that XV 194 was the innocent victim of the 'I have control no I have' incident at Tromso. I am sure someone can flesh out the story better than I can.

[Null Orifice]

Nice picture of the late lamented XV194, AA62, it being in the proper colour scheme and all!.

It's actually facing the 'right way' as it receives final fuel and the culinary delicacies prepared by Changi Creek - it is the other Ks in the shot that are the wrong way round. This untidy-looking situation arose frequently, due to lack of availability of towing resources (men and tug), and sometimes other (infrequent!) aircraft movements by the Shacks of 205 or the Kiwi vibrators :ooh:.
Apparently, and before my time on 48, there was an incident featuring a very senior squadron pilot that involved the combination of reverse thrust, braking, and a slight downward slope on the far end (number escapes me) parking slot :rolleyes:.
I believe there followed a squadron order?/verbal instruction? to airframe drivers that forbade them from reversing into the squadron dispersal slots - one of the aforesaid gentlemen may enlighten us further. As a result, all aircraft arrived 'nose in' to the slot, and were turned around during the turnround or afterflight servicing.

Tromso:

I don't know the full story regarding the demise of XV194. Tales of a possible asymmetrical reverse situation due to an outboard being out of limits, a crosswind, and a bit of a hoo-hah up front surfaced shortly afterwards.
This aircraft was the Fleet Fatigue Index leader at Lyneham at the time.

[ancientaviator62]

Null Orifice,
than you for the clarification ref the 48 parking procedure. I had completely forgotten !
If no one appears soon to tell the tale of the demise of XV 194 then you may have to put up with my version.

[Alison Conway]

Gentlemen,

I was sent the information of John Bell's demise by the Secretary of 30 Sqn Association, as I am a member (if you served on 30 may I suggest that you join?). There is to be a service of thanksgiving at 1500hrs on 27th November at St Mary's Church Attenborough NG9 6AS. This follows a private cremation earlier in the day. There are limited seats in the church. May I suggest you google the association and contact the sec before going "on spec".

[November4]

Just found this from Gp Capt Bell in the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/3610302/Isnt-life-rotten.html)dated 31 Aug 2004

SIR - Mark Thatcher's reappearance in the news reminds me of an incident during his now notorious Paris-Dakar rally in 1982.

I was flying from RAF Lyneham to west Africa in a C130 when the flight got the message to divert to Gibraltar. We were to put ourselves on search and rescue standby for the prime minister's son, who was lost somewhere in the Sahara. We spent a couple of days there, but without a call-out, as he turned up unharmed.

Meanwhile, the two pallets of vegetables that we were carrying for Ascension Island slowly went rotten in the back of the aircraft. It must have been quite an expensive exercise to divert an RAF transport aircraft and crew from its primary mission, but I guess that being a member of the PM's family must have some perks as well as its downside.

[smujsmith]

Brian W May,

Thanks for the YouTube link to the late great John Bell. I was fortunate enough to have met him a couple of times during my time on Albert, as many have said, the man was legend. Sympathies to his surviving family, that's a big piece of world to replace.

Smudge

[Brian W May]

No worries Smuj.

He was such a nice guy, but no push over and really well respected. There are far worse things to be remembered for.

Tromso:

If memory serves (and it's iffy), as a result of this accident, we ended up with vertically challenged drivers carrying a larger back seat cushion, something about not being able to get full rudder on.

Probably other reasons too, but that strikes a chord.

[ancientaviator62]

I was not on the accident to XV 194 nor even on the same squadron so my recollection really is hearsay but it may jog the memories of others.
On finals to Tromso the captain did not like the co pilots flying so he took over control but apparently neglected to inform the co of this small fact .
The a/c 'arrived' on the runway and during the ensuing wrestling match poor old 194 ran off the runway into a large drainage ditch and was damaged beyond repair. The only injury was to the loadmaster who had a sprained thumb.
At the SI the captain was reprimanded and fined. Rumour has it he then tried to claim back the money on his kit insurance ! How successful this ploy was I know not.
I recall at least one of our pilots with a back cushion when I did the OCU in 1968.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HERCCHANGI0002_zps2a6ff81e.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HERCCHANGI0002_zps2a6ff81e.jpg.html)

Another view of the 48 Sqn line at Changi. Slight lean, flaps down and ramp and door open.
It is odd but this picture of all of them takes me back there.

[Null Orifice]

Memory lane!

Brings some of it back into focus again, thanks for the piccie!

I'm not used to seeing that view from upstairs, being one of the lower-level dwellers in the building to the left of shot.

The picture reminds me of the tractor incident, where an unauthorised groundcrew 'member' (I use that word deliberately!) was driving the tractor back to the squadron HQ from the flight line to its parking place just around the corner of the building on the right.
On arriving at said parking place (facing the wall), he failed to stop and collided with the aforesaid wall, bending the front bumper of the tractor in the process. External damage to the wall was only slight; however, the impact dislodged most of the white ceramic tiles on the inside wall of the toilet within. Another groundcrew member had, fortunately, chosen a stall other than that in the corner and was unhurt, although he was moderately traumatised by the incident.

Apperently, the driver had seen others, more competent than he, arrive at said parking place having first pulled the diesel cutoff lever, brake using the foot brake, then apply the parking brake, and leap off - all in one smooth action:cool:. His lack of skill and judgement led to considerable mirth in the crewroom - the inevitable disciplinary action followed. Cost him a few quid too, if memory lane leads to the correct destination!

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Slight lean, flaps down and ramp and door open.

I thought the ground crew chap looked a bit funny.

[ancientaviator62]

N O,
yes the previous pic was taken from the balcony outside the loadmaster office. Glad it brought memories back for you. Do you remember the incident regarding the 'repainting' of the CO's house ?

Changi as was in our time before it had the makeover !

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/FEAF50002_zps909b3e6c.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/FEAF50002_zps909b3e6c.jpg.html)

[smujsmith]

AA62 and Null,

Great shots of Changi, a place I only visited once, years after your time. We called in on the way home from a trip to Australia, to recharge the LOX pot. The ground kit provided was pretty standard to the fleet, and after getting the pressure raising coils going etc we managed to fill Albert up very nicely. After disconnecting from the LOX rig, the Flight Seargeant driver insisted that he would return the rig to its safe configuration. He did this and then drove off. About 100 yards from our aircraft there was a large explosion, and several pieces of LOX rig debris flew over our heads. Yep, the Flight Sergeant forgot to open the valve that relieved the pressure in the pressure raising coil. My Captain that day was nearby as it all happened, I know he follows this thread, and would no doubt corroborate the sequence of events. I would have loved to have been old enough to do a tour there though:rolleyes:

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
your LOX story reminds us it could be dangerous being around the 'K' on the ground never mind flying in it. As I said before we were lucky in variety of a/c and the overseas bases still around during our time.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/FEAF4_zpsd52a7eac.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/FEAF4_zpsd52a7eac.jpg.html)

Another pic of Changi.

[mr ripley]

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/mjg66/ScreenShot2014-11-28at123752_Snapseed.jpg

And how it looks now from an ex C130K driver.

[mr ripley]

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/mjg66/Framechange017.jpghttp://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/mjg66/Framechange014.jpg
Once round the island and coming into land at ASI in 2005

[ancientaviator62]

mr ripley,
cracking pics ! More please from you 'K' days.

[mr ripley]

The 'Office' changes from:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/mjg66/eagle18.jpg
to this when I left:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/mjg66/3a1.jpg

[smujsmith]

Nice shots Mr Ripley, I take it the "office" shots were before and after for the K? Looks like they replaced all of those engine gauges good and proper if so. The before shot made me wonder how many (will admit) to having one of the originally supplied control column Lockheed Badges that the aircraft arrived with. I well remember aircraft turning up for Base 3 (Major) servicing at Colerne with both missing. We replaced them, and they "went missing" again. I'm sure many pilots have them as souvineers, and who would blame them. By the time I returned to the fleet in the 80s they had been replaced with the locally made perspex jobby in your shot. Does anyone have a photograph of the original ? Come on AA62, "fess up".:O

Smudge:ok:

[Brian W May]

You mean the nice coloured engraved badges . . . ?

Never seen one (Your Honour)

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
as someone who was taught during tech training that everything in an a/c was sacrosanct I never even considered it. Others obviously did not share this view. Comes of working on fighters I suppose.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/FEAF20002_zpsd23d5f06.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/FEAF20002_zpsd23d5f06.jpg.html)

Another pic from the 48 Sqn black and white series. Pilot's 'lollipop' single free drop sack from 50 feet (ish) after the main drop of one tons.

[ancientaviator62]

Mr Ripley,
I wonder when you were on the 'K' and which squadron(s) you were on.

[mr ripley]

30 and LXX 1991-2005
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/mjg66/TobysPics044.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/mjg66/TobysPics130.jpghttp://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/mjg66/TobysPics054.jpg
Here are some more K pics

[ancientaviator62]

Mr Ripley,
I was on 30 from 1988 until 1996, so if the timescale fits we may have met.

[Null Orifice]

mister ripley

Posh headrests in that flight-deck shot, mister r. Were these just for SF,or general fit? A few years after my time! I only recall the 'flat' headrests.

aa62

Nice shots of Changi!
My memory needs a nudge about the COs house incident, I'm afraid (old age!):uhoh:.

[smujsmith]

Mr Ripley,

Cracking shots, 200 really did look good after I left. And the SF head protection/NVG Helmet "nooks" must surely have been a relief to pilots on long, night NVG trips. I suspect I may well have accompanied you as a GE in the past. Super photography, please keep posting, your time on 30/LXX coincides very nicely with my time as a GE. For those wondering about the often missing control yoke decals, try this;

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/37d691f1124630686f14d4083a664dbe_zpsd6aaae21.jpg

They did look good. Apparently now available on EBay.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Null,
as I recall it was towards the end of our time with 48 at Changi that this episode took place. The then OC 48 had upset some of the groundcrew for reasons I remember not. So one night a few of them after more than a few Tigers took it into their befuddled heads to get revenge. The daubed the outside of said OC's house with paint, and scarpered.
I cannot remember if the culprits were caught or what even the final outcome was. Perhaps one of the readership can put more flesh on these bare bones.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/FEAF10002_zpse64496c8.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/FEAF10002_zpse64496c8.jpg.html)

Another of the black and white pics of airdrop in FEAF.

[CoffmanStarter]

Dropping Accuracy ...

Being completely ignorant on such matters ... I'd appreciate a little understanding on the science affecting dropping accuracy ?

I assume its a function of Load Weight, Load Morphology, Type of Chute along with Aircraft Air Speed, Height and Time of Release versers Wind Direction/Strength and possibly Drop Zone Alt ... but how does the LM bring all this together to produce an accurate drop ?

AA62 ... I do appreciate in large part it's skill and experience :ok:

Drag ... If you plan to jump in on this one ... keep the Maths light mate :uhoh:

Coff.

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
the credit (or blame) for drop accuracy is or was in my time strictly due to the Navigator. One of them hopefully will be along soon to explain CARP, SAFT
Density Altitude and other parts of the black art of airdrop accuracy. We the loadmasters merely commented on the proceedings unless on certain extracted drops we had to use the extractor emergency release handle. This only occurred when there was an electrical malfunction or the co pilot forgot his lines and did not push the button at the 'green on' call. On a real emergency it could get very busy down the back !
Unlike the Hastings, Beverley or Argosy the Herc did not have a dedicated supply aimer's position, the Nav did his job standing,or crouching behind the Co.

[sycamore]

TLAR....errr Green ON....!

[2port]

Mr Ripley, that looks like Entebbe 2003

[Dougie M]

Morning Coff.
I did wait a suitable interval to see if any other mug would take the bait, honest.
Air Drop is a team effort for the entire crew and is a meld of science and art.
In essence the boxes are calibrated by telemetry (in my day Aberporth) for ballistics. The teams at Boscombe then would do the sums for weights and drop heights. The JATE boys would then trial the kit for procedures and then some poor sap at Group would collate all this **** in a page inserted in the book of words given to the crew. The science was the height, speed, flap setting and release sequence. (Don't ask about Para Wedge) for each load and type of chute. The art was where to put it. When the box finished its travel from comfortable rest at its tie down station to being arrested in its death dive by the parachute it was at the mercy of the wind this is called the Still Air Forward Throw. All O.K. so far?
The windage is split into head/tail component and left/right. On the run in to the drop zone the crew configures the aircraft in the approved mode as briefed.The Nav then states the left/right displacement and the Captain puts him there allowing for drift. The Nav then either used the SCNS to do the work or gazed out the window till the Calculated Air Release Point was reached and called the lights. Robert is your Uncle.
For complete jam strangling blind luck observe Page 35 of this thread post#689
Now Jedi you are.

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Obi One Kenobi ...

Much information and understanding I now have :ok:

Morning Dougie ...

Sad I know ... But my interest in stuff like this goes back prior to learning basic Pilot Nav when as a 17 year old A Level Maths stude I wrote a computer programme to resolve Velocity Triangles ... the only problem was that data input was via Marked Sense Cards (using a HB pencil) and Punch Tape with a turnaround of a week to get output back from a computer the size of a mobile classroom ... not very 'practical' ... but I eventually got it to work :eek:

40 years ago ... :(

Best regards ...

Coff.

[dragartist]

Coff, Sorry I took my eye off the ball.
Wind or really the difference between forecast and actual has the greatest influence. hence the need to get closer to the ground.


There is also variability in parachute opening times depending upon so many things. Wight of the load, Air speed, Air density, parachute porosity, floor angle and position in the aircraft (exit time).


On the J using a system called PADS (you will find a good clip on You Tube) we were able to do from 12K what we could at 800 ft using standard 1 tons and a wet finger for the wind.

[CoffmanStarter]

Afternoon Drag :ok:

Many thanks ... I'll go have a peek :)

PS. Mr & Mrs Coff are off to Prague for a few days ... so will be "off air" the early part of next week :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Sometimes after a poor result of a manually despatched load (free drop harness pack etc) the Nav would accuse the loadmaster/despatch team of delaying the load exit! As if we would !!!

[CoffmanStarter]

What are you saying AA62 !!! ;)

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
sometimes there was beer on the result I believe !

[Dougie M]

Told you it was an art.
I once got a call from the DZ saying the load was 600 yds at 6 o'clock when the DZSO was in cahoots with the Master Air Despatcher (MAD) one P*** E******* when I was going for an unbroken run of bullseyes.
There WAS beer involved.
However,I NEVER upbraided a Loadmaster for adding or subtracting VAT on difficult loads where his local knowledge was better than mine.

[dragartist]

Dougie,
I don't believe said MAD would do such a thing. Now I do know others that might! I do recall one pi$$ing contest between my mates at Q2 over a set of CARP Coefficients and a long drop. They would not accept the data provided by the USAF. more or less insisted that they undertake exhaustive trails and have an a/c allocated to Boscombe for the purpose.


Years back when we did a slight modification to the apex tie of the small cruciform (I can't recall id it was the SC8 of GQ6m) the number of drops required kept the team at JATE going for nearly a year. Similar sketch when we did ADUX from J - By the way your MAD was the only guy who knew how to do a draw tie. All the other cutes had had Norah Batty static lines for ages.


Talking of ADUX - my thoughts are with said chap who bears the call sign on here and his family this coming week.

[Mal Drop]

The CARP tables were generally OK for temperate climes at near sea-level but it didn't take the brains of a rocket surgeon* to realise that at a few thousand feet up and ISA plus scorchio, the air would be a bit thinnerer making the still-air forward-throw a tad longerer and the canopy a bit less stoppier. This necessitated the 'green-on' being mindraulically adjusted to get the stores on more or less the right continent**.

* Yes, I know.

** Or not as a few of my fellow members of SODCATS found out***.

*** But not Dougie M, the well-known and godlike Elvis impersonator who smote American vehicles with his CARP of righteousness.

[smujsmith]

Now then you droppers of things, a quick question. I spent my first tour out of Halton Apprenticeship at RAF Colerne 71-73. A rumour abounded during my time there that an Albert had flown over, and an unsecured chain tensioner had detached and penetrated two floors of our ATC building (the tower ?). I can imagine that a tensioner at terminal velocity could certainly do some damage, but two floors ? Anyone else have knowledge of the incident, or was it once again, rumour ?

Smudge:ok:

PS Coff, have a nice trip to Prague. It's a nice place.

[GreenKnight121]

PS Coff, have a nice trip to Prague. It's a nice place.

Now.

Its my understanding (from others) that that was not true some 30-50 years ago.

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
it has happened more than once that one of the 5000lbs tensioners has fallen out of the stowage in flight with the ramp and door open. If you recall said stowage was up on the fuselage wall on the left as you look aft.
Whilst we are on the subject of airdrop. I think these were a Rickman motorbikes being trialled for the special forces. Hopefully someone may know for certain.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/JATESMALLVEHICLE10002_zpsdca66480.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/JATESMALLVEHICLE10002_zpsdca66480.jpg.html)

[Dougie M]

Hi Drag.
The episode of the "spoof call" was when the foot and mouth epidemic was on and for drop currency for the AD boys we finagled a drop zone on the airfield at Lyneham. The recovery of the loads would not have to cross farmland.
A stern ATC brief designated a 100 yd square area in the NW corner of the airfield. The strongest avoidance terms covered not obstructing RW18 in the undershoot, RW25 on the left, the ILS localiser array in the overshoot and the pony club, flying club and skeet shooting club on the right.
This was briefed again at the aircraft to the despatchers along with the CARP (fish) and lights and intercom (dark and quiet) info.
"Questions?"
"Think you can do it?"
"Piece of pi$$"
"Beer?"
Anyway, all 1 ton MEs landed within 25yds of the impact marker including the one "spoof called"
It put the breeze up our rather sensitive captain though.
P*** E*** said afterwards "that's for spoofing me in Ethiopia with that fat bird" Ask him!

[ksimboy]

After an unscheduled absence due to med malingering I return to find the thread still on page one, lots of catching up to do on reading so many thanks chaps .

[Dougie M]

Welcome back. Hope you are restored. My knee injury due to the volcano relief ops in Antigua still attracts a disability pension.
Coff. Have a great time in Prague with the memsahib. Avoid the carp pools in the square after leaving the Irish bar. Heavy risk of slippage. Scoff in U Flecku brill.
Dougie

[ksimboy]

Ah yes Dougie, the RAF sumo wrestling squad. "Me no know, where me gonna go ,when the volcano she blow!" Happy days indeed ! Going to be a slow recovery as it was fairly major issue, although so far things are going well. The stories are still coming , which shows the legacy of Albert .

[truckie]

The Legend that is P*** E******** . Having recently completed the TAC cse, the very junior crew were sent to Edmonton to make up the numbers for the Crosscheck competition. The Nav was, generally brilliant except for his assessment relative to the DZ markings. All the drops were short. On the day of the comp the weather was filthy but the Nav superb, running in to the final DZ within seconds. Red On...Green on. long pause then Load Gone. DZ reported that it looked like it might have been a MalDrop but it was a DH. PE had taken no chances, slashed the gores and eyeballed the drop himself, effectively launching a ballistic freefall HP. We won the comp. Top man, happy days.


SJD

[It's only Me]

Ah, the knee injury...

I recall 'twas a night in a colonial building with some lovely large ladies, lots of rum and ting followed by an early departure off the banana boat next day....

Me

[ksimboy]

Just trying to recall which member of the crew told the Banana boat driver " there is no way you are getting us off the boat !"

[Dougie M]

The eruption on Chancellors Peak in the Soufriere Mountains was the real reason we were in Antigua, ferrying marines into the strip named after Steptoe's dad. William Brambell. It was a tough job but somebody had to do it.
Therefore we were on active duty, even when we were the heaviest crew ever on an inflatable banana. My case rests.
Dougie

[dragartist]

Had some interesting times up at West Frugh during Foot and Mouth. I did not realise cows could swim!


AA62. Was your motorbike in around 94/5. by the time I got to JATE it had developed a roll over cage and could carry two.


Nice to have you back on board KSim


Drag

[sycamore]

Drag,if you look carefully,you`ll see there are 2 wobbly wheels; as they`re back to back and joined in the middle,they can only go round in circles ....

[Xercules]

JATE had, and presumably still has, a video of a MSP drop of a Landrovers in which, unfortunately, the L/R departed the platform as it was vertical and made a solo descent without bothering the parachutes. Does anybody have a copy?

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
I am sure the motorbike trials were much earlier than your time at Jate.
As I recall there were two bikes per board.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/JATESMALLVEHICLE2_zps30b8851e.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/JATESMALLVEHICLE2_zps30b8851e.jpg.html)

Another in the small vehicle trials. Vague memory this may have been a Citroen,

[dragartist]

Ah Sycamore I must have had my wrong head on last night. The serious one!


my view is that the people involved have shown a lot of ingenuity over the years. Harry Packe and his wicker baskets for instance. SEAC pack is still a masterpiece today. We went from the highly technical in the 50s with MSP / HSP and then through an agricultural stage where everything had to be done with a bit of wood and cord. Not sure when Dufelyte replaced straw in sacks. The motorbike board I saw develop into an angle iron frame around the board with Quick release pins to remove a tubular steel roll cage. There were steel posts to tie two motorbikes upright.. The airdrop kit weighed more than the payload. Sorry I don't have any pictures. I don't think it got beyond the trials phase. Effort was being put into quads bikes (Honda Grizzly I think) No idea how far this got on the K. Effort was being put into the J where restraint requirements were being adhered too.


Again, only my view, but we appear to have gone all agricultural again.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/JATESMALLVEHICLE30002_zps06216d74.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/JATESMALLVEHICLE30002_zps06216d74.jpg.html)

As you can see sometimes the small vehicle turned over. I think the poor cross country performance of these vehicles were their downfall thus the quad bikes as mentioned by dragartist were tried. But not in my time.
As regards the provision of a cage with quick release pins for motorbikes etc We tried something like that during my time at JATE. The big problem was the potential for the pins to bend on impact. Even a small distortion would make it almost impossible to remove them. Anyone who has struggled with the drop nose pins on the a/c role equipment will understand this only too well.

[ancientaviator62]

I have just noticed that Coffman's 'baby' has gone over the 200000 views mark.
He will be pleased when he returns from his break.
I am pleasantly surprised at the number. Now if only some of those watching would contribute we may go even further.

[KenV]

What is that device attached to the left wingtip in the photo in post #13? Antenna? Weapons rail? Something else?

[ksimboy]

ken,
The item was MAROC(Marshalls Orange Crop) , a step up from hand held RWR kit.

[Brian W May]

I'd always thought that was Maritime Orange Crop - oh well . . .

[ksimboy]

Think it depends who you talk to Brian, all I remember was it was lots of pretty coloured lights and nice buzzy noises when you were locked up by radar/ missiles. Of course when it was on board the aircraft there was no dedicated operator in the early days.

[smujsmith]

Ksimboy,

Well remembered. From the point of view of the GE MAROC was indeed an abbreviated MARshalls Orange Crop. Orange crop originally being part of the Vulcan ECM package. Curiously Wiki lists - Orange Blossom - Pod-mounted electronic support measures used on the Hercules. Either way, it was basically a bolt on to help with Radar detection warning. During the Sarajevo airlift, operated by SF crews, the crew were augmented by the inclusion of an Air Electronics Operator (anyone remember the "Bushy Bushy Steaks ?) who fed loads of chirps and squeaks on to the intercom circuit, and generally caused worry amongst the less knowledgeable, like myself. Although, a good in flight, approach based briefing soon had me in awe of these "one winged masters of chirruping"! Meanwhile, the other problem with the pods on the wingtip was the change in wing loading, meaning that fuel loads were changed for the modified aircraft to allow for the extra weight at the extremes of the wing. Not a problem on SF trips for the GE, but often caused problems when a modified aircraft was used for a standard route, and fuel was critical. I've no doubt that things have moved on since those days, but from my perspective, it was another aid to keep us all alive when others wanted to do otherwise. Welcome back Ksimboy, hope you recover fully and soon mate.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/image_zps95fdf6ae.jpg

XV200 on the bay at Falconara (Ancona) note the MAROC pod.

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Hi chaps from Prague. Yes I know I shouldn't be operating my iPhone after sampling a good few Vodkas, but I'm so pleased that so many of you have enjoyed this thread. Back to UK tomorrow via squeeze jet :-(

[ExAscoteer]

Smuj,

Orange Crop had nothing to do with the Vulcan ECM package, it was derived from the kit fitted to the Royal Navy's helos.

[smujsmith]

ExAscoteer,

Yes, interesting that. After posting I did a little research, and sure enough, Orange Crop was an RWR fit to the Lynx, as you say. The same Wiki article quotes the RWR fit to the C130K as "Orange Blossom". Now, once again the mystery of avionics on Albert highlights perhaps the misconceptions of many of us, who worked with it. As a GE, I never had a crew report that it had failed in operation, and I'm sure they would have had it happened. And thinking about it, the only positive briefing I had on it during my time was the difference in fuel loads required as per the standard wing set. Apologies if I threw a false lead into the smooth working of the thread, it's been a long time though. I still maintain that for some reason, most GEs knew it as MAROC (MARshalls Orange Crop) how deluded we were. Thanks for the heads up.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
I think most of us used the various terms at one time or another in respect of the same kit. I think dragartist may have had something to do with this and hopefully he will be along soon to put the record straight.
Picking up DM's thread about rum I recall being in a sandy place waiting to go into dinner with the captain. We had a rum punch and as we drank we looked at each other quizzically. Then we watched the barman mix the drinks. The mix contained ninety percent rum and ten percent other ! We postponed further imbibing until after dinner.
This sandy place was Barbados, not your sort of sand smudge but someone has to do these tasks, but it was only for eleven days ! Story next time.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

I say old chap, I wasn't a Gulf only GE you know. I had a very happy 10 days based out of.The Grand Barbados, and like you, enjoyed the "variations" of Rum on offer. Of course, The Bermudiana and its environs were good for Dark and Stormy's and I still have my "screeching in" certificate from Trapper Johns. Rum was certainly a feature in travels west for the Albert team. Looking forward to the tale.

Smudge :ok:

[KenV]

ken,
The item was MAROC(Marshalls Orange Crop) , a step up from hand held RWR kit.


Wow. Orange Blossom or Orange Crop, either way that's an awfully big RWR antenna. And it started out on Lynx helos??!! That seems like an awfully large antenna for such a small helo.

I think its interesting that they hung the antenna below the wingtip rather than embedding it in the wingtip similar to the S-3/CP-140 ESM antenna installation. Maybe hanging it below makes it easier to mod and de-mod.

[dragartist]

AA62, Sorry I had no input at all to the wing mounted pods.
I do have knowledge of the Ex Vulcan RWR ARI 18228/1 which went on Chinook, Puma and our SAR Sea Kings for FIMPA. I did have a hand in some avionic equipment installations on the K circa 1982 and W Mk2 (probably 1988) and a few special fits on the J when Airdrop was becoming more sophisticated than bits of cloth string and plywood.


I often wondered if the wing tip pods on the Herc were similar to those on the Nimrod Mk2. The ones we fitted to the R were different altogether.


Ken,
One thing that Marshalls were very good at was doing things very quickly. may not have been all that sanitary but worked. Cost vs Time vs performance. I think AA62 has already recounted earlier about the tanker and even the probe fits that were undertaken by Marshall in short order.

[smujsmith]

Drag,

Your comments re Marshalls definately hit bullseye. I first met them in 71 at Colerne, even then they were supporting the engineering task on the K. That followed through on both ALSS, Ground Engineers and AES at Lyneham. They were a good bunch of guys, who got the job done, and fitted nicely with the service element of Albert support. My only theory on why the wingtip pods were "under slung" would be that we were interested in a ground threat, and under slung gave it an unobstructed view of terra firma.

Smudge :ok:

[dragartist]

Smuge,
My uninformed guess would be more along the lines of- it was a structurally more simple installation without the need to reposition Nav lamps and other things. and could be accomplished quickly.


I will have a chat with their chief aerodynamicist of the era next week when I see him. perhaps he can shed some light.


When I was challenged to fit MAWS sensors to a jet, I found a very simple solution to the forward facing ones. Cable runs dictated a few constraints.

[ExAscoteer]

I often wondered if the wing tip pods on the Herc were similar to those on the Nimrod Mk2. The ones we fitted to the R were different altogether.

No, MAROC was an entirely different system to YELLOW GATE fitted to Nimrod MR2; the latter was derived from an American system, indeed the display on the Flight Deck was the same as that fitted to F15. The YELLOW GATE fitted to the R1 was the same as that fitted to the MR2.

[salad-dodger]

The YELLOW GATE fitted to the R1 was the same as that fitted to the MR2.
No!

dragartist asked about the Herc, he knows about the Nimrod pods.

Yellow Gate was not fitted to the R1 and the wingtip pods fitted to the MR2 and R1 were quite different. Roughly same shape and colour on the outside, but as the old proverb says, it's what on the inside that counts!

Anyway, back to Albert.

S-D

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
got my screeching in certificate when I was on Hastings. Ah the Bermudiana and the Castle Harbour hotels in Bermuda ! Do they still exist ?
Back to my Barbados tale. But first a pic of our basha taken from the boat that took us on a sunset rum punch cruise. Needless to say the supply did not last long.http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/BARBADOS0002_zps5950ff76.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/BARBADOS0002_zps5950ff76.jpg.html)
When the Caribbean islands became independent they had an arrangement that in the event of trouble on one island (coup etc) the others would come and help. As they had no transport a/c we and the u/s would supply.
So on the 24 June 1972 we set off in XV 300 to carry out this task.
As the USAF were providing more a/c they ran the scheduling.
I have to 'fess up to a minor run in with the lady Aerial Port. Major i/c the loads. They way it was initially set up had myself and the GE doing what I considered to be more re-roling than necessary. The result of our discussion was that she would give us the days task and we would arrange it for a minimum of a/c re roling. That is how we carried on shuttling around the Islands.
Shortly after we arrived there a S/L from group turned up (complete with wife) to 'observe and report' ! A nice jolly !
Part way through the task we were asked by the High Commission if we could fly some of them and some local worthies around the island.
We asked group who agreed provided the a/c was rigged as per the Families' Day Flying SOP. So we did scenic tour one for those lucky enough to get a 'ticket'.
We were asked by the Major if we would do a special to Roosevelt Roads to pick up some priority cargo and a few of the troops. When we got there we had to wait for this cargo to arrive and their rep was a bit reticent about what it was. We soon found out. It was all 'white goods' washers fridges freezers and the like. They must have cleaned out the BX at the place.
On arrival back at Barbados we were met by a curious Major who went bananas when she saw the 'priority cargo' . We of course were not bothered in the least.
We came home via Bermuda and then direct to Lyneham.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

Bless my soul, the Grand Barbados, the pier restaurant was a cracker for breakfast. I heard that the Bermudiana was demolished, or burned down in the early 90s, we then used to stay at The Grotto Beach

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/d5338df49cae10f67c0d2e4e02156a52_zps576d5eaf.jpg

This is the bar, under the hotel. It was in a sea cave that was illuminated from below. You could stand on the balcony, Dark and Stormy in hand and watch rays and sharks swim past below. Those were the days.

Smudge:ok:

[Dougie M]

In the Cock and Feather in Hamilton one evening, the wrong side of quite a few of these -it's amazing how innocuous they taste- Our skipper, one A*** S**** made a terrible mistake. It all went in slow motion but in the crowded bar on the balcony looking over the harbourside where the cruise ships were disgorging thousands of pax, he inadvertently knocked off the ash from his fag on one of the most perfectly rounded female bottoms on the island. So far, so good. Where it all went wrong was when he tried to brush it off with the back of his hand, dropping the fag at the same time. The outraged owner of said bum spun round and clouted the woman standing the other side of Andy while he was bent over retrieving his errant snout.
The crew just managed to drag the bemused and slightly surprised skipper out of the bar as this humungous cat fight developed into an audience participation game. "Lucky to get out of there in time" he declared.
Bless

[Mal Drop]

Fond memories of being despatched from the party room in the Hamilton Princess as a Student Nav/Student Captain pair to get in some booze for the compulsory hours-long debrief. In the local supermarket we were approached by a large chap wearing a pair of the shorts that the island was famed for; he claimed he owned the supermarket and having heard our British accents would like to invite us over to his house for a drink to celebrate the Queen's birthday. Faced with the possibility of being used as sex toys by locals or going back to the Staff Captain's interminable stories (he was renowned for not letting the studes get out and about in the town), we almost knocked each other over in the rush to get into our new best friend's van.

It turned out that he did own the supermarket (as well as a sizeable chunk of the island_. He had his own rum blended for him by an importer and it was freely available from a barrel in his back garden (where he also kept pot-bellied pigs who would take your feet out from under you when they heard the tap being turned on the barrel). He invited over a few friends who included a WWII USAF pilot who flew Liberators, his son (a Rhodes Scholar) and a few of the local bigwigs. Five hours of fascinating conversation and amazing hospitality later he took us back to the supermarket and presented us with a slab of beer and a litre bottle of Goslings Dark Rum each.

We wandered back to the party room where the rest of the Student crew were now feigning death in the desperate hope that they could escape via body bags and were greeted with a gruff 'took your bloody time' from the staff skipper.

Have loved Bermuda ever since...

[Wander00]

I was working at Marshalls (Concorde nose and visor particularly) when MCE got the Hercules support contract. Some amusement shortly after when MCE777, the Chairman's limo, changed from a Bentley to a Cadillac.

[dragartist]

Thanks SD, after 14 years I used to know almost every nut bolt and washer and cable run. Now how many people did I manage to convince that we had fitted a new antenna under that fibreglass fairing under the 4a tank. It only came off once every major to grease the axle!!


As you say back to albert.


Wander,
I remember a visit to Marshall from school when they were doing Concorde. many of the design team came to work with me at Wyton 10 years later. As Smuge, AA 62 and others may have recalled the place was buzzing during early 82 and for many years afterwards.

[smujsmith]

The most amusing event in my first visit to Barbados followed a similar, but not so well funded, walkabout as Dougie M. One morning after breakfast, and with a serviceable Albert and a crew rest day, the whole crew decided to wander down the beach from the Grand, where it was reported ( by our Captain) that there was a beach shack that did great barbecued burgers and beer lunches. Off we trotted, burned the calories and eventually found the recommended establishment. Lunch was, exactly as our Captain had described, smashing, and well worth the walk, a change for him, most of his recommendations usually incorporated Guinness as part of the repertoire (sorry if this might lead to any ID ideas skipper). Anyway, the walk back was underway, and the usual banter was underway, when a local chap (rasta?) jumped out of a bush. I'm not very good at a Barbudian accent, particularly when typing on an iPad, so please try and imagine the conversation.

" Hi guys, how yo doing ? How would you'll you like to do a tour of de island, all the local sites, churches and points of interest" ?

Skipper : "No thanks mate, we just want to walk along the beach back to the hotel".

This was repeated at least twice, before our Captain offered some profanity toward the rasta chap, suggesting he "go away fornicating".

To which the chap made his final pitch saying " no problem guys, y'all have a nice day, and would any of you like some wacky baccy"?

No one took him up on his final offer, no surprise there, but it was a source for much humour for the rest of the detachment.

From a GE point of view it was an interesting trip. The same deployment as described by AA62 in support of Caribbean forces movements, we had a problem early on when the Captains front window developed a huge crack on the inner laminate, and crazed across the outer laminate, making it unusable as a visual aid. With a 10 day deployment planned, all could be carried out unpressurised, we (the two GEs) dared to suggest that we would order a spare windscreen, and replace it on a planned, non flying day, before return via Bermuda. As it happened, there was no flying planned for the day prior to our departure, so we two GEs, and the hard working MSF Corporal attended Grantley Adams all that day. A windscreen change is a big job, ask any rigger, and this was no exception. We had to meet a target in that there was a setting time for the PRC (elastomer sealant) used in seating the new screen, and we had to complete a full ground pressurisation test, from memory, at least 12 hours before flying. As Dougie M says, it's hard work, and somebody has to do it. All went well, we even got out for a few beers before departure. One of my fondest memories, to this day of serving as an Aircraft Ground Engineer. Now look what you made me do, pull up a blinking sandbag again.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
you and the others are doing exactly what I hoped my tales would do. Stir up the little grey cells of memory of the 'K' and the places it visited at HMQ'S behest. And of course the characters that took the a/c there.
Anyone remember OP Sheepskin ? Before your time smudge !

[CoffmanStarter]

Good morning Gentlemen ...

We are safely back from our trip to Prague ... what a fascinating place ... along with a touch of pre-Christmas snow :ok:

Now that we have over 203,000 Hits with c. 2,000 contributions, I just wanted to thank everyone who has contributed thus far. I'm so pleased that our Thread has seen so many old friends and colleagues hook up again and share their stories when working with RAF Albert. I'm particularly appreciative of AA62 for his continued interest ... who would have thought that a little help with posting images for some could lead to the wealth of imagery that has been shared.

Thanks also to our good friend Dragartist for adding to the enjoyment with his stories from the Back Room ;)

Just a few of the main culprits to this thread :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/ScreenShot2014-12-06at083542_zps0deada43.png

Talking of interesting imagery ... I'm sure there are some pics out there of either AA62, Smudge, Mal Drop or Dougie in Bermuda Shorts :ooh:

Here's to hopefully a few more stories ...

Seasons greetings ...

Coff.

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
welcome back. Yes we are still going with tales of warmer places, all done in the line of duty. You asked for pics in Bermuda shorts. Not my style so you will have to make do with this one of me on the boat ready to set off for our sunset cruise in Barbados. Well you did ask for it !

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/BILLBARBADOS0002_zpscb4bad95.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/BILLBARBADOS0002_zpscb4bad95.jpg.html)

[smujsmith]

The Andros Detachment, and on a day off my fellow GE and I decided to visit the Space centre, and do the Apollo tour (again). Our Loadie, quick Don, took this showing that it wasn't just Mr Libby who had a penchant for dressing up

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/84872a06c8b47f1fc6b935e2babc9f79_zps5f5a9cb3.jpg

Murray was a natty dresser too :rolleyes:

Note the Saturn 5, a rocket with almost as much thrust as the Mighty Allison:)

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
Murray's outfit provides real competition for the shirt worn by the chap on my left in my Barbados pic. Obviously Murray wanted to be taken for a local.

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
was that Andros with a 30 Sqn crew and can you remember the date ?

[smujsmith]

AA62,

It certainly was a 30 Sqdn Crew, Captain one B. A. R*****son (Saxophonist). As my 40th Birthday happened during the Det, I'm thinking it would have been in April 1993. Hope that helps.

Smudge:ok: