Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules

[CoffmanStarter]

Alcazares48 ...

Welcome :ok:

We can help you out with posting any pics you might have. Drop me a PM with your eMail address and I'll gladly send you a Cheat Sheet ;)

Best ...

Coff.

[CoffmanStarter]

Alcazares48 ...

Check PM's and eMail just sent :ok:

Looking forward to a few pics and stories ...

Best ...

Coff.

[Alcazares48]

Signing up to this forum with trepidation it feels like my first day on my new squadron as a newly qualified Loady. Or first day at school, everyone else knew each other from way back when, the place oozed experience and knowledge.

Tales of JATFOR and the Changi slip, Colerne and Fairford, and the New Hebrides conflict was in full flow, everything was passing me by.

At first I thought that maybe I had nothing of interest to contribute to this forum, but flicking through my log books, a few stories come to mind.
But likewise some names stare out at me from the page and mean absolutely nothing.
I have read this thread from start to finish and I can now see why my log books should be permanently at the side of this computer!

Thanks for the welcome AA62, Coff and Smuj.
I dont want to embarrass AA62 but he was the best boss one could hope for and was a great help at three critical periods of my life.

Two great men previously mentioned on here: S** V***e (or Nice Mr V**** as we called him) did an unofficial fly past for my wedding, while Bert D*****d was my best man and terrorised my Mum.
Meanwhile Nav leader P*** K***p saved the day by tracking down the florist when we forgot to collect the flowers. Then my bride´s vintage car breaks down by the garage in Lyneham village!
AA62 do you remember all this?

The sad thing is hearing of those no longer with us, Barry Nunn my first Squadron commander who was my captain on the OCU, Sqn Ldr John Bell was also on that course. Mick Doggart was a very supportive Flight Commander.

Smuj did you get any replies re the dinghy over Canada? I was on the call out.

[smujsmith]

Whilst we await Alcazares, perhaps we could compare notes on the "places" most favoured. I would kick off by suggesting Penang in Malaysia as my favourite place for a couple of days. The Shangri La hotel, with the option of a transfer to the sister Golden Sands if you had enough time on the ground, was always a joy. The food from the street vendors was always good, and the people, I always found to be friendly and helpful. I know a few of our posters are old enough:eek: to have done a tour on an overseas based Albert Squadron, and what a treat the likes of 48 must have been, but, from the point of view of someone who never had that chance, my time as an AGE gave me the only opportunity to see what was left of that world. I'm looking for favourite haunts of Ascoteers I suppose, on routes from Lyneham, not as Far East tourists. I bet some prefer west to east.

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Alcazaras48,
you have a PM.

[dragartist]

I was a bit worried that we may drop off the first page. So here goes with the article on Snoopy.
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w35/dragartist1/Snooopyresize_zpsloriyjih.jpg


http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w35/dragartist1/Snooopy2resize_zpsj9s30pji.jpg


My interest in this goes back to my last years at school seeing it being built at Marshall. In the 80s I got involved in a bit of design work to upgrade the secure comms. I visited Farnborough several times and still have Gibbs Business card. I remember the Mods Ctee mtg to clear my modification and went though the check list, Restraint OK, Did you wish to check my stress calcs, Weight and Moment, EMC and Tempest, Spares, Flight Test, DA approvals, Air Pubs etc. etc. One of the other modifications on the agenda was painting a chicken on the side. never heard so much discussion over politics, who was paying, it was an RAF A/c not belonging to the Met Office FFS give me a tin of Humbrol enamel and I will pop out and do it whilst you lot argue the toss. The Design Authority wanted to charge a fortune for a Cover Mod and drawings. I think it did get done in the end. I had previously done some artwork on aircraft, painting red gooses on the dorsal dielectric panels on a big hemp aircraft we had at Wyton. A tin of Post Office Red, a bit of white and light sea grey. I think the chief Dopy was on leave or posted at the time.


Years later I became involved again in Snoopy when Boscombe (Not sure if it was DERA or Q2 at the time) had bought the aircraft for £1. I think The Herc IPT had retained some Type Airworthiness Authority status. We were short of Ks and started to lay plans for flat flooring the aircraft, putting the cloud and clunk back on the nose and using the aircraft for Airdrop and parachute trials. This never came off. It was good to see the airframe used for A400M engine development. The aircraft was sat in quite a sorry state at Cambridge last year.


I think the aircraft has been discussed on this forum previously. Genghis is the expert. He posted some links to the Met Office historical stuff. The barbers pole is at Exeter he tells me. I remember Harry telling me how they went through nose undercarriages.

[ancientaviator62]

Dragartist,
illuminating as usual thank you. Is there no end to your expertise ?

[dragartist]

AA 62, I think I am a jack of all and master of none! If I had been that good I would have been top dog at ABW rather than a happy crash test dummy tester. I often wondered if I should get my paint brushes out again but I enjoy the grandchildren, my garden and making things in wood these days.

[CoffmanStarter]

Drag ... You are 'Banksy' I claim my £10 ;)

Great article ... Hope you don't mind me linking my previous Thread on MET Office Research Flying :ok:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/540317-met-office-research-flying.html

Hopefully our good friend 'XV208 Snoopy' will share a few more stories with us :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Alcazaras48 ...

It looks like your 'initial' posts are being 'reviewed' by the Forum Mod's before being promoted to live ... Don't worry ... We've all been through this ... SOP :ok:

Looks like you might be having a bit of trouble with a pic ... If so, drop me an eMail with the pic and I'll gladly help :ok:

[Alcazares48]

Thanks Coff, I attempted to post a photo before I received your pearls of wisdom!
This picture was taken at the end of a long day trip to Norway. I was holding on 47 Squadron awaiting my OCU. Way too much excitement for a newbie, having to circle the airfield, with a low pass over the tower and then assist in tying down the undercarriage.

http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t449/alcazares48/1fe91a41-fde2-48de-9d00-2713286c9f76_zpskbof8tdl.jpg

[Alcazares48]

Smuj, re favourite places.

A route that was always popular was the "Bucket of Sunshine" to Almagordo in New Mexico.
I cannot remember the name of the hotel in Albuquerque but they had a "happy cocktail hour", we got very happy, the cocktails were free and the hour always stretched to two. They also put free "snacks" on which was practically a complete buffet, no need for dinner. Follow that with a free full breakfast buffet in the morning and you went home with dollars in your pocket from unused allowances. :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Alcazares48,
thank you for the compliment my cheque is in the post !
Do I remember your wedding ? Who could forget it. Bert was in his finest form
and despite the hiccups it was a day to remember !
Do I recall right that you were with the 'K' in or near San Francisco during an earthquake ?
Coffman has coached me to put up pics etc so if I can do it ..........
You are so right about logbook entries. Some I stare at with no recollection at all and otheres trigger a load of memories. So I call it my faithful friend and my memory without log book my fallible friend.

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
your invitation for us to recall our best loved places visited in the 'K'
occupied several pleasant hours perusing my log books.
Malaysia is high up there mainly because when I was on the Group EU we used to do a two week annual inspection visit. We stayed in KL but I have to confess a little infidelity here. I used to prefer to sneak away to Labuan to fly with the Caribou squadron.
Langkawi I visited when we supported the Red Arrows trip to the middle and Far East. It was such a nice place I told my wife about it. Result was we went there for several holidays always via KL. In KL we usually put up at the Traders close to the park and the Twin Towers. The exec floor gave nice views and a two hour cocktail and snacks event every evening.
Then she discovered the Maldives and snorkelling, despite my protestation of 'HMQ used to pay me to go there'.

[Alcazares48]

Port Stanley, Queens Birthday Fly Past 21st April 1988 We were lead aircraft "Sir Matt" driving.

http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t449/alcazares48/Stanley%20Queens%20Birthday%20Fly%20Past%2021st%20April%2019 88_zps27ifuwgl.jpg

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000103A_zps1ca3a141.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000103A_zps1ca3a141.jpg.html)
Pic taken at Simpang airfield KL is of the Nav and myself on one of our annual inspection visits to the RAMF.
Someone had to suffer with fortitude these 'field trips.

[Alcazares48]

What a memory AA62!

October 17th 1989, we had just spent the night in Las Vegas but were eager to get to our ultimate destination which was Alameda Naval Air station. We had “lucked in” big time and were due to spend three full days in San Francisco; I had excitedly prepared my tourist research.

For some reason we had been delayed by air traffic at Nellis AFB for about two to three hours. As we got closer to our destination we heard lots of chatter over the airwaves and one priceless comment “Wow that was a Biggy, what do reckon it was on the Richter scale?” For some reason no one else on the crew seemed to pick up on the comment, so I suggested to the captain that we should check with Air Traffic to see if there had been a problem at our destination.

It turns out San Francisco had just experienced the strongest earthquake to hit the area since 1906; it caused more than 60 deaths, thousands of injuries, and widespread property damage. There was so much pandemonium that ATC had just forgotten to tell us that Alameda airfield's two runways and two taxiways were significantly damaged and inoperable. We diverted to Travis AFB, 50 miles to the north, and spent three days practically confined to our hotel watching TV.

It was even more of an aftershock, and a relief, to later discover that the route to our hotel in San Fran would have been along the ill-fated double-deck Nimitz highway and across the Oakland Bay Bridge, both the scene of many of the fatalities. Thank you air traffic.

[Dougie M]

I have to admit that despite the earthquakes, bush fires and tornadoes my favourite places are in the USA.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/58d492d1-f659-4218-b31b-69ff1cb2680b_zpsc68jflnv.jpg

[Trumpet_trousers]

Dougie M:
I'm guessing from the photo that the one with the biggest bag (to your immediate right) is the Co (big imprest...) and the LM is the one to your immediate left? (No self-respecting LM would be seen carrying a bag, unless it was purpose made for golf clubs...)
That just leaves the Skipper and Eng...:cool:

[CoffmanStarter]

Alcazares48 ... Well played that man :D:D:D:D

[ACW418]

Crikey I didn't think it was such difficult and hard work in the transport fleet. Just think what fun we had (not) in the V Force!

ACW

[Alcazares48]

In answer to an earlier query by Smuj.

7th October 1987, I was on the call out crew tasked to fly to Canada with spares to rescue an aircraft on an OCU trainer. This was the unfortunate incident of the life-raft that self-ejaculated from its stowage on the wing somewhere over the Gulf of St Lawrence forcing an emergency landing in Sept-Isles in Quebec Province.

As was SOP we handed our aircraft to the other crew who quickly departed, and then checked into our hotel to await the verdict of the technical experts as to how quickly they could fix the damage.
First problem: the GE informs the captain that instead of (say) 10 big bolts and 30 small bolts we have 10 small and 30 large, I cannot remember the exact number.

After a quick phone call back to base, we are told the correct bolts will arrive at Quebec airport and to jump in a taxi and go get.
Problem: Quebec was 650 kilometres away, Sept Isle is in the back of beyond where the paved road stops!
Problem: we needed a scissors truck or cherry picker, there were none available.
Problem: Thanksgiving in Canada is celebrated on the second Monday of October, it's a statutory holiday, and everything will be closed.
Problem: Sept-Îles has a borderline sub-arctic climate, despite being located at around only 50 degrees latitude nobody had come prepared with appropriate clothing.

As if things could not get any worse our allowances were not enough to cover three square meals a day and everyone spoke French. This meant if you wanted to keep warm and save money by staying in your room TV was in a foreign language. Believe it or not we longed to be in Gander.
The captain was lucky he hired a light aircraft to fly him to Quebec where he HAD to spend the night and then returned with the spares. The Co-pilot meanwhile was ringing round trying to pay over the odds to hire the appropriate ground equipment.
We escaped after 6 days!

[ancientaviator62]

Dougie,
in # 2768 is that the Volant Rodeo scoreboard you are posing in front with some of the umpires ?

[ancientaviator62]

Alcazares48,
I well remeber those 'RLF' trips to Kirtland and the ASCOT heaven of a hotel. I suspect their hospitality has contributed to our forgetting the name. Whilst you were shivering in Scet Isle my log book informs me that I went to Kirtland via Nellis and other places. Mind you all the other entries for that month seem to be Banner trips of one sort or another so perhaps I felt I had earned it !

[Dougie M]

AA62
They had already changed the name to Airlift Rodeo by then and the girls were from the reception team. We had just squashed the DZSO's jeep and were so far ahead that only underhand skulduggery could wrest the trophy from us. I was prepared to sacrifice myself to a "honey trap" but sadly one was never offered. The little lady on my right did offer to come home with me though. She didn't and we lost.

[Dougie M]

MT at Pope had a sense of humour so they presented me with this.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/1b382ca8-4a58-4600-87b4-213bd7f49033_zpsc3fiyert.jpg

[ancientaviator62]

Dougie,
yes my log book does say Airlift Rodeo, the earlier one I did is recorded as Volant Rodeo. If that famous MSP drop was on May 7 1967, captain Graham F, then I was doing the airdrop check of your loadmaster on that trip.
As I recall there was constant goal post changing mainly to stop one of their reserve squadron teams beating the regulars. I think USAF careers were made and unmade in this competition !

[CoffmanStarter]

I believe this is the other pic in Dougie's album to complement the 'Jeep Remains' pic above ;)

http://blogs.artinfo.com/cuttingroom/files/2012/12/dam-targeting.jpg

Great story Dougie :D:D:D:D

[TheChitterneFlyer]

I have only recently found this particular thread and I've enjoyed reading it from end to end. I too have extremely fond memories of my few years spent at Lyneham (1978 to 1986). Being fresh out of Finningley I 'held' with LXX for a month until my OCU started. During my first night in the Sgt's Mess I'd received a telephone call from one of the Sqn Eng's to ask if I'd like to accompany him on a trip to Bermuda, via Lages? Full of excitement, I hardly slept a wink that night! After the OCU, and back to LXX, the excitement continued for some years to come; the best years of my RAF career.


Two-years later, and with a Tac Course behind me, I found myself heading for Nepal on Op Khana Cascade. Dave Ferries (RIP) was one of the ALMs and a good mucker. Ray Beyer and Jim Hobbs were the two captains who, sadly, are also no longer with us.


Reading through this thread I learn of more folk who're no longer with us and so... let's raise a glass to all of those fabulous folk who're watching over us.


Cheers to you all... not forgotten.


TCF

[Dougie M]

Flyer, Amen to that.


1987 was the 40th anniversary of the USAF and if they lost, heads would roll in good old USAF fashion. We were so far ahead on points that the DETCO and his deputy didn't bother to go to the DZ for the para. After the drop in light winds with 1 degree starboard drift we were given a score of 300 yards at 9 o'clock which just edged a Spam C141 crew into the lead. When confronted the umpire said "Well it could have been Brazil or Britain" We said that we were the United Kingdom and he replied "If you think that I am going to tell Gen. Dwayne H. Cassidy that I screwed up, you're wrong!" So we had our own celebration in Bennigans till ordered back to pick up our E.R.O. prize. We just let the MAMS boys go up for that. Too many long island iced teas to climb the stage. But it was fun.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/97773328-5009-47c4-a472-bd16e5356a9d_zpsm4rtdu1o.jpg

[Dougie M]

The Canadians had a nightmare with their heavy drop. It despatched itself miles from the DZ. They reckoned that the sudden easing of tension let them enjoy the Rodeo more.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/4b4fb2dc-d623-4934-9a76-e49568de51e3_zpswu6vztcq.jpg

[ancientaviator62]

Dougie,
as I recall the Canadians claimed that their load landed on the DZ despite being miles from the Impact Point. Given the size of the DZs out there they may well have been right !

[Alcazares48]

Crosscheck October 1981, a cheeky salute to the DZ from our despatch team.

http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t449/alcazares48/Mooning_zpsgayshzim.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Rodeo stories ... this Thread gets Better and Better ... keep em coming Gents :D:D:D:D

[ksimboy]

Never did Rodeo, but managed Red Flag in 98 with LXX . Most fun day,apart from walking into the Red Air briefing room with our route and saying "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough! (They shot the crap out of us but what a day!). 2 Alberts (having promised the armourers we'd be returning with no flares or chaff on board) gapping in to the ranges, when Earwax came on freq saying "knock it off F15 diverted to dreamland" . The sight of the Nevada desert burning as flares and chaff bounced off the desert floor as we raced to beat the small pointy things back to Nellis was something to behold!

[kilwhang]

On Volant Rodeo '81 the Italians were the winners and we came second (which means nothing in the States - you either win, or you're a loser).

The silence, when the Italians went up to collect the prize, was a bit embarrassing - even though the Brit contingent made as much noise as possible.

[ancientaviator62]

I was an umpire in 1985 and as I have previously described was doing flight deck duties. On one of the trips with the Italians the captain touched short of the strip and on the next trip we did not touch at all ! Needless to say they did not win that year. Volant/Airlift Rodeo were very enjoyable two weeks.

[kilwhang]

We were staying in the same hotel as the Italians.

Arriving back from the airfield one day, we noticed them hanging white towels on their balconies. This prompted one of our Loadies to shout: "We accept, lay down your weapons and we'll get them later". :)

[CoffmanStarter]

Is it also true that the Aeronautica Militare C-130's and C-27's had three Reverse Thrust settings like their Army Tanks :p

[ancientaviator62]

Question for Brian48Nav. Looking through my log book I note that on June 19 1970 in XV 306 we dropped a stick of eight one ton auto onto 'Motley DZ'. This was when I was on 48 at Changi.
Where was this DZ ?

[Brian 48nav]

Blimey - doesn't sound like an Asian name! We're living above the garage now while the house is being built, I'll have a look in my map chest tomorrow there may be some old Malaysian maps there.

[Brian W May]

Wasn't a 'shower' of one tons was it?

[huge72]

At risk of sounding a smart ass! ''Motley'', usually followed by a number signifying which team, is the traditional and long standing callsign of the Mobile Air Ops Teams that mark out, set up and control Heli Landing Sites in the field. Is it possible that your DZ was set up by one of these teams and the callsign was as a temporary name for a one off DZ?

[ancientaviator62]

Brian48Nav,
thanks for offering to look it up. Brian W. I always regarded a successful 1 ton auto drop as an act of God, but it really did shower down !
Huge72 many thanks you may have cracked it. It was during the big exercise
'Bersatu Padu' so a one off DZ somewhere up country could have well been set up for this exercise. It may have been on or near the strip at Penerak itself.

[huge72]

AA
That's what I figured as 72 Sqn were deployed from Odiham for that one along with the resident 103.
Rgds
Huge

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HERCULES%20AIRDROP%20LOG%20BOOK_zpst8fhjutv.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HERCULES%20AIRDROP%20LOG%20BOOK_zpst8fhjutv.jpg.html)

Just in case the loyal reader thinks that all we did on the 'K' was fly to exotic places here is a page from my log book when I was an airdrop instructor on TSF.
Keevil and Hullavington were not normally regarded as exotic !
The short flight times recorded belie the work and time expended before we even got airborne. Happy days.

[Dougie M]

A sign I remember from the Nav section in STS.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/fdb3a129-da03-4b17-a115-dd6c7b121287_zps4zn5f7gv.jpg

[ksimboy]

AA62 I reckon you're 5 mins out!:p (always wanted to say that lol)

[Brian W May]

. . . err . . . didn't realise ALMs needed to keep a logbook - besides I thought UKMAMS had them sewn up (along with all the flying kit).

Retiring to a safe distance and taking cover from 'incoming' . . . :eek:

[Alcazares48]

The biggest frustration as a Loady when filling in the log book was that we had probably flown twice as many hours as logged.
If we were flying with another loadmaster and did not have the appropriate number of pax on board you were not deemed to be operating! :ugh:

That was appropriate for any of the front end crew, but it was the norm for both ALMs to work in tandem.

[Brian W May]

That was appropriate for any of the front end crew, but it was the norm for both ALMs to work in tandem.

How close? :rolleyes:

[Dougie M]

AA 62. Thought there might have been a comment on a double MSP maldrop on Frog Hill DZ at what looks like a last light P hour. Weren't you all grounded and the aircraft impounded until after the maldrop inquiry, or did the course just soldier on in those days?

[smujsmith]

Just a quick post lads,

I have been presented with my 62nd Birthday present from my son today, a PS4. Well, having paid tribute to Dave Ferries (RIP) in an earlier post, having got the infernal new beast working (it seems to know my preferences) and there's an advert from Royal Wootten Basset 2014, with the deputy Mayor, one Ian Ferries, making a speech. I can't link it, but seeing the man brings back some happy memories of his brother. What a small world it is, despite "global technology".

Meanwhile, Brian, what's this insinuation of Loadies working. Ksimboy and AA62 would be mortified. In my day, they were all known as "flying teaspoons", and respected they were for their abilities :eek: no doubt none would challenge Raymond Blanc on culinary prowess, but that was down to Lyneham In Flight Catering. Personally an AA for breakfast (pre hammock) and an ACC top of the drop was always perfectly presented, and most welcome. Of course, the club sandwiches and Samosas at various locations, during the pre flight made that particular Loadie your bestest ever mate:sad: now, back to real stories of derring do.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Dougie,
any Maldrop whether on the course or not meant impounding the a/c and an investigation by JATE. If I recall correctly this particular one was the WRAF parachute packer who goofed. I have mentioned this in an earlier post (Doubling up on the mouth ties of the anti swing parachute.).
It was late when the JATE team turned up and as we were flying on my qualifications I had sent the student home and I dealt with JATE.
Their initial suspicion that we had not rigged it properly was dispersed in the cold light of day when they inspected the anti swing chute.

[CoffmanStarter]

Came across this yesterday ...

Apparently there are plans to construct a Natural Surface Operations (NSO) Tactical Landing Zone (TLZ) at Keevil. Effectively a new runway 24/06

It would seem construction has been delayed with consultation still ongoing ?

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/Proposed%20new%20runway_zpsiv8c5jwu.jpg

Image Credit : MOD DIO

Coff

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
many moons ago there was a proposal to have a natural surface tac strip alongside the main runway at Lyneham. I do not think it ever got further than the 'would it be nice stage'.

[ksimboy]

They did actually suggest Lyneham be utilised as a natural strip once the Defence College was up and running. Sadly that has died totally now due to the proximity of the solar farm to the edge of 24/06 and the intersection of 18/36.

[Dougie M]

I think that they should still construct it there so the only people kept awake at night would be service tech personnel and not the good folks of Bulkington and Steeple Ashton. It would show the studes what the sound of freedom is all about.
Rant over.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/f3fdfdaf-d568-4e2a-ba60-06eabd76e841_zpsj2pa82bx.jpg

[ksimboy]

Doug,
the residents of Bradenstoke are already complaining due to the proximity to the fences neighbouring one of the mobile home estates. Plus there have been complaints from residents in Foxham regarding the noise the tanks will make, it seems the noise of Albert was acceptable! Thank goodness my time down the back of Albert sorted my hearing out.

[smujsmith]

Further to my last on Ian Ferries ;

http://youtu.be/ANfBJKbvPE4

Spot the ex Nav time peeps.

Smudge:ok:

[Brian W May]

The word 'Reciprocating' and the word 'Wrist' may be used in conjunction in this context . . .

[ksimboy]

Brian, the next mayor of RWB is a really great guy, he told me that once!

[fergineer]

And you believed him!!!!

[ksimboy]

Most certainly not Fergie, see earlier post wrt his career debrief after brewery visit. He took that ever so well!!

[Brian W May]

Ah well, as Terry Pratchett (RIP) used to say, 'We've all passed a lot of water since then'.

In fact, I think I was an @rse then too . . . so we're quits :ok:

[smujsmith]

Sorry lads,

Obviously not a subject dear to your hearts. I still rate IFF's brother as a top Loadie (RIP).

Now, change of subject, I wonder if anyone has any input on the RAF contribution to the Sarajevo Airlift. I managed to attend a few detachments myself, as a mere GE, including a trip that gave me a "sixpence/half crown" moment or three. I can't remember if I have already told the story, but I'm sure I can retrieve it from my fading brain cells if required. Meanwhile, for those who never met "Kevin Keegan" at the winery, and those who could not supply 750 ltrs of quality Italian vino for their daughters 18th Birthday party, for those who never attended a Noggie Herc crews farewell doo, I assure you, whilst it was hard work, the Ancona Det always had its "benefits". Must be a few stories in that operation.

Smudge :ok:

[Brian 48nav]

It always struck me as strange that some people on promotion to Sqn Ldr lost all humility and became complete barstewards.

In the case of one nav' I knew it was not such a surprise - he was a cynical sod at nav' school ( where he masqueraded as an instructor ), the same on the Herc' Course and then on 48 , especially when he became Nav' Ldr. My contacts on the other side of the airfield at Lyneham reported that he was even worse on promotion to Flt Cdr.

The other guy I knew well - same South Cerney course, following his recourse, same nav' course until he was recoursed again, this time by 2 courses - was lucky to make it on the Andover and did so only with much help and understanding from the staff. He arrived on the Herc' after I left the mob in '73 and surprisingly made it. When he got promoted he became a complete sh1t according to other Flt Cdrs I knew, and became even worse on his 2 further promotions!!

[smujsmith]

As a follow up to the post above re Ancona/Sarajevo I came across this on YouTube, and thought it might provide some interest. I'm sure we all recognise the participants;

https://youtu.be/pTSodmS2K7E

Memories are made of this, as they say.

Smudge :ok:

[smujsmith]

I put this compilation together a couple of years ago. It's done by a bloke who publishes as MJA aviation, a friend of at least one Albert Captain ! He's part of the community of photographers who sit on Welsh hillsides taking shots of low flying training and its progress. This chap has done some great video, which I've cobbled together into a 20 minute clip. Good music, and Albert certainly features, but the blokes on the hills look cold;

http://youtu.be/C68xRVrCj3g

Enjoy, you may be part of this vid.

Smudge :ok:

[chickenlover]

Smuj old mucker-that link is coming up as private -you haven't put the winery fun & games one up by mistake have you...........:)

[smujsmith]

Chickenlover,

Thanks for that, can you try it again, I have hopefully fixed it. Worry not, your winery visit videos are definitely not for public consumption.

Hope you are well, if it does work, are you flying one of the flybys ?

Smudge:ok:

thanks to boguing for confirming that my link now works. Enjoy some Albert low flying, amongst the suck and blow stuff.

[Lyneham Lad]

Excellent compilation - ta very much for the link, Smuj. :) The Hawk guys look as though they are the ones having the most fun!

[smujsmith]

Lyneham Lad,

Glad you enjoyed it, the Hawk lads might have been having fun, but they weren't having fun whilst consuming coffee and donuts:rolleyes: Seriously, those photographers go out in all sorts of weather and get some great photographs of our waning aircraft inventories, respect and credit to them.

Smudge:ok:

[Dougie M]

Well done Smuj. Brings back happy memories although I was getting a nosebleed at the heights those "J"s were entering the Loop.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/eb86e5b3-11ed-4814-8401-e23f3655cdde_zpshp84ttvl.jpg

[The Claw]

Years later I became involved again in Snoopy when Boscombe (Not sure if it was DERA or Q2 at the time) had bought the aircraft for £1. I think The Herc IPT had retained some Type Airworthiness Authority status. We were short of Ks and started to lay plans for flat flooring the aircraft, putting the cloud and clunk back on the nose and using the aircraft for Airdrop and parachute trials. This never came off. It was good to see the airframe used for A400M engine development. The aircraft was sat in quite a sorry state at Cambridge last year.



Sadly she is no more as she got broken up today :-(

[fergineer]

Sad to hear of Snoopys demise

[Brian W May]

They're hunting down the crews now Fergi . . . they're next :D

[CoffmanStarter]

Very sad pics indeed :(

http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/5/4/6/6/4/a7770961-254-image-fed1dd12.jpg

http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/5/4/6/6/4/a7770959-178-image.jpg

Image Credit : Unknown : Unable to ID

RIP Snoopy ...

[Wander00]

That's sad, and I am not even a Herc mate. Worked at Marshalls years ago too, on Concorde nose and visor.

[dragartist]

Oddly enough I was at Cambridge last Thursday evening for the RAeS Voyager lecture. Snoopy had been turned around since the last time I saw. Still had the Red Nose radome. Comic Relief.
I think someone should have saved the refuelling probe. You never know we may need them again in a hurry.
Sad but there you go.
Scrap aluminium £600 per ton or so I am told.

[smujsmith]

Dougie #2824,

They might be a bit higher, but do the J's carry "directional consultants" on low level trips ? If not, perhaps they are following standard practice when using "Vasco de Ios" :sad:

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

Smuj
Like the Flight Engineers the Navs were phased out with the conversion to "J"s. There are a couple of Mission Planners left but it's all pre-programmed in the computer now.
It was a satisfying experience recently to train up foreign C130 "E" and "H" crews who still have Navs in the crew.

[smujsmith]

I'll bet. How the heck can a pre programmed computer programme tell a GE he needs to give the F or C comp a bit of percussive persuasion ?:rolleyes:

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

Smuj old mate.
F and C comps went with the doppler ages ago. Even young K Navs wouldn't know what they did.
I saw the writing on the wall when I asked my grandchildren which one was me in the photo. They said "You are the one with grey hair"
I retired then.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/a9a1b4bd-dd85-4327-bf0b-3045af14d591_zpsdztjdahw.jpg

[smujsmith]

Doug,

Did they really get rid of Doppler ? You'll tell me next that the Omega went too !! No wonder they don't need Navs anymore. One thing for sure, like me, I'm sure you have many great memories of Albert and the people who made sure Albert went around its proscribed route. Tucker T and myself often reminisce about a certain trip to Oz many moons ago, and a "hash house" jungle jaunt. I prefer that they didn't replace you, like all modern governments they just found a cheaper way to do it. No doubt the pilots are next to be removed from the loop.

Best

Smudge :ok:

[Brian W May]

Talking of Nav kit, it was the LORAN which really got me . . . for once in my life, I was sorry for Navs.

That and the dedication required to achieve a three-star fix, teetering on that absurd step (apart from Roger Howe that is).

Min Time Tracks for transatlantic until the arrival of JetPlan, toting around the confuser along with the telephone cradle.

Even I operated laser ring gyro INS with GPS update in later life, stripping away all the magic by telling us where we were rather than where we'd just been.

[smujsmith]

Ahh Brian, talk of modern kit. I remember SCINS being introduced on the SF frames toward the end of my time. GE's were given a pamphlet describing operation and component parts, then sent off on 4 week SF dets, hopefully armed with enough info to fix it if it went tits. Never had one break, and thanks to one particular Nav I certainly learned how it all worked. Modern Nav stuff is a doddle, it has to be, pilots operate it.:rolleyes:

Smudge :ok:

[Brian W May]

The older generation may identify with this song wot I writ in about 1976 when I was on 30 (with Fink):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5xuoedhybwnekca/greenwings%20-%20mod%2029%20embodied.mp3?dl=0

[smujsmith]

Brian,

Thanks for that post re "Crud and Custard". Interesting to note that someone can go from monitoring instruments to playing them. Unfortunately, the link seems to stop as you describe the Flight Engineer's part. Is that deliberate, or is there more that you have withheld ? And is there some witty banter on GEs ? What's more, did you play guitar as a tecky at Colerne, as I did ?

Smudge :ok:

[Brian W May]

'Ere Smuj, my copy goes to the end.

When I wrote it, we didn't always carry a GE - quite often only SVC, one such was Corporal Phil Howgego who has just retired from Virgin as a 747 skipper!

However, this one, does mention the GE :

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5073174/EnRoute%20Tales.mp3

Yes I used to grace the Drying Rooms at Colerne and also appeared with Fred Wedlock when we opened the Colerne Folk Club in about 1972/3 time.

[smujsmith]

Brian,

Looks like Colernes drying room guitarists get around a bit then. I regularly practiced with a chap called Dave Jenkins, a sumpy from Brum. We used to frequent pubs around bath doing folkified Beatles tunes. Always good for a free beer or two. He now lives in Auckland NZ, having lived in South Africa previously. Good times for single lads.

Smudge :ok:

[fergineer]

Another similarity Brian, sang with Fried Wetleg as well

[Brian W May]

What a thoroughly nice bloke he was bless him. Far more talented than he let on too.

Who remembers Andy A to Z in the simulator then? Ayatollah Smith too?

[Dougie M]

It always amused me that nearly 50 years since WWII Andrus still couldn't speak English properly whereas newly arrived Poles have it virtually as a second language. Deciphering his directives in the sim were time consuming enough but one episode rendered us all dumbstruck followed by unappreciated hilarity.
Ascot 4321 was on departure from Akrotiri in the customary gloom of the simulator when Sqn Ldr AtoZ suddenly hurled a pile of flight documents onto the captains lap with the following ejaculation;
"Emmerjencee! emmerjencee! Flamingo comes through vindow! Kills pilot! Copilot-Vot you do!?"


............Eng: "Er, Clear reverse"

[kilwhang]

I, too, spent many happy hours instructing in the Sim with Andy A-Z.

There had been a report of an aircraft (I can't remember which type) where the Captain's seat had unlocked at 'Rotate' causing the seat to shoot back.

Andy would reach forward, unlock the Capts seat at the critical moment, and shout at the co-pilot to do 'zumzing'.

On another occasion (again at 'rotate') he grabbed the Capt round the neck and shouted 'Ermegency! Ermegency! Capt has heart attack - co-pilot, take control'.
Unfortunately, the co took a bit of time to get things together, by which time the Capt was going red in the face and desperately trying to loosen Andy's grip. :)

A really interesting story was how Andy escaped from Poland as the Germans advanced. A bunch of us were lucky enough to be in a pub one night when he told the story.
I believe he wrote a book of his life and it is all in there.

[smujsmith]

The man sounds one hell of a character. And, of course, back in the day the fleet had many such characters. I wonder the reaction in these modern times to a Captain being "restrained by the neck" in a simulator drill ? I bet the lawyers would be rubbing their hands in glee. It's nice to see three, top, switch movers posting on the thread, and all in a short space of time. Only today a fellow ex GE was explaining to me that the Flt Eng was retained for so long only to mediate in arguments between the two pilots, and obviously to ensure that Captains did not use their authority to win all the time :eek: no wonder Doug and his fellow directional consultants preferred to sit a little further behind them. Just a little stir chaps::rolleyes:

Smudge:ok:

PS Kilwhang, any idea of the books title and availability ?

[Brian 48nav]

Andy was the wing pilot at Changi for the Herc', a thorough gentlemen.

For pilot cats' he had devised his own SID for Changi but never seemed to let on the details to ATC, when asked our intention he would take the RT and reply, " Zis is ze categorisation detail, unable to comply".

Basically he expected the 'victim' to select a radial from Tengah Tacan that could be intercepted at about 1000' after a straight ahead departure from the active runway and followed to the east of Changi until Andy threw some emergency at the pilot.

On a previous tour at Changi, Andy was the skipper of a Valetta of 110 Sqn flying from Kai Tak to Saigon and was first on the scene of search to locate survivors of a Cathay Pacific aircraft that had been shot down IIRC by a Chinese Mig15.

[kilwhang]

Smuj, I've spent a bit of time trying to trace his book but with no luck. It is possible that it was written by someone else - if it was written at all.

Here is a quick precis of what he told us. Remember, this is almost 40 years ago and my episodic memory is not what it was..........

In the summer of 1939 the Polish Armed Forces were equipped with kit that wasn't 'state of the art'. They were certainly no match for the might of Germany. As the invasion progressed, it was obvious that there was only going to be one winner.
The Polish government made an agreement with the aggressors that their forces would stop fighting and hand over their weapons.

Andy was a fighter pilot at the time (flying bi-planes, I think) and, along with some of his mates, wasn't too happy about surrendering. A group of them flew south to Hungary and 'after a few mishaps' made it to France, where they joined the French Air Force.

Soon afterwards the French surrendered so Andy flew to the UK and joined the RAF.

Andy didn't say what he did during the war years and skipped to the late 40's when he was flying transport aircraft.

I know he was on Beverleys and, amongst other things, was involved during the setting up of the ALM Branch. I believe he was one of the first ALM Checkers and did that until there were enough experienced ALMs to take over.
Perhaps AA62 or one of the other 'senior' Loadies could confirm or deny that.

He was, also, part of the 'Polish Government-in-Exile' (for those who don't know what that is, it's worth a Google search).

Andy could appear a bit intimidating at first but I always found him very approachable and, as Brian 48nav says, a thorough gentleman.

If anyone out there can add to this, I'm sure we'd all appreciate that.

And, of course, he has his own entry in the C130K lexicon:

Ermegency! Ermegency!

[Alison Conway]

As a 1st tourist engineer I first came across A-Z with a crew consisting of a very experienced captain (let's call him Robbie with a perm) a ex-VC10 captain now co-pilot (acting S/L now Flt Lt) and a nav who I cannot remember (cue episodic memory, Kilwhang). On rotate Andy called the inevitable "Errrmegencee, Errrmegencee, Captain, you have hearrrt attack" He had been briefed of course, and became limp (but laughing like a drain). The co-pilot now had to take command, and it went rapidly downhill from there! Just as he muttered those immortal words "I have control" No 4 engine had a fire warning with all the attendant hooting and lights. "Fire No4" calls I, whereon the Co looks up and pulls the No4 Fire T handle (the drill had only just been changed) He had barely got the aircraft under control, and the indications had disappeared, when he said "I suppose we had better do the subsequent actions, Nav..read the drill". The Nav said "Fire Control handle" he looked up and before I could re-act said "Damn, I didn't pull the T Handle" and then pulled No 3 T Handle making us DOUBLE assymetric. The Captain at this time looked like he might actually HAVE a heart attack laughing. I set us up for an immediate re-light, but the co wouldn't have it. We struggled round for a landing (although it certainly wasn't pretty) and that was the end of the sortie! Front to back approximately 45 mins. I was curtly told I would not be required for the debrief, but my screen told me there was about to be blood letting. Not that long after I had the good fortune to work with him in the sim as an instructor, but still maintain he made it up as he went along. It made for some interesting times.

[smujsmith]

AC,

Please tell me that happened in the sim :eek:

Kilwhang,

Thanks for that, despite being in different times, and no doubt with more risk to life and limb, it's a story that has happened throughout the history of Albert in service with the RAF. My only personal experience was of one A**y M******y, a Flight Engineer, well known, who went through hard times (and a big bike ride) to join our service. I had the pleasure of being his GE on many routes, and, will never forget helping him to deliver whatever could be scrounged from our flight rations to a local orphanage on arrival in Belize. Perhaps like him, Sqn Ldr Andrus was attracted to the Royal Air Force by reputation. I wonder if there are more examples of "foreign input" to the Albert fleet over the years, obviously the Kiwis seem to have a head start, having snatched the Station Commander title from the Brits, and have now captured Fergineer,or was he always "one of them"?

[fergineer]

Only for the last 11 years Smuj.....wonder if Andy M is still wheeling and dealing for Belize?

[Brian W May]

I've got Andy Muniandy's book here. I thought he owned a rubber plantation in Malaysia.

The art with dealing with A to Z was to refuse to do his list - bless him, he actually examined the sim records of the incumbent crew and then prioritized them to list all the ticks for the BTRs.

Once you'd done as many ticks as was reasonable (rather than possible) - he relaxed.

I wrote a song about that too . . .

SIMULATED TALKING BLUES
(Brian May 1979 )

When you come to the sim, your heart’s in your boots
You’ve got to face it and forget those routes
You knew it could happen and it did this time
You got your B Cat, that’s your crime
Hand in your flying-suit, plan your weekends

For eighteen months you’re forced to stop
From flying enroute, your spirit flops
You’re on the move, this ain’t no line
Now even HTS seems fine
Like the difference between leukemia and dying – just a question of time

The crews come in and beg to be shot
They’ve looked at the board and seen who’ve they’ve got
A to Z’s just got to be seen
He’ll give every tick there’s ever been . . . and then some
Efficient little devil ain’t he?

He lists the snags, a foolscap side
It’s enough to make you run and hide
Off we go at great haste, what’s this a five minute space?
Must be Friday, No his watch stopped, Biro overheat!

Now the man in the office is really a pearl
Ayatollah Smith really makes you hurl
Who says humans can’t be simulated
Pity he’s not where he’s appreciated . . . Tehran . . . Iran . . . as a hostage

You may think I’m bitter, you may think I’m sick
I’ve got a nagging doubt that just won’t click
YES, it WILL, there’s a way I cried
It’s really quite simple, called suicide
AFTER euthanasia for retired officers, and assassination of religious leaders
Why die now? I’d be a hero!

[smujsmith]

Brian,

A nice ditty by the sounds. Which Andy M book do you have I have two;

Hercules the RAF Workhorse and Erks on Herk's (possibly his finest work as I feature in one of the photographs). :eek: Both interesting tomes. I heard that having retired from Lyneham he became deputy defence minister for Belize and was instrumental for the re employment of many ex British serving Gurkha soldiers in that country. He certainly had a thing for Belize, and good news if he has done well there.

Fergineer,

I have a good mate (ex Colerne) who now lives in Auckland, I wish I had gone Kiwi several years ago. It sounds a great place.

Smudge:ok:

[Brian W May]

It's 'Workhorse' mate - which page do I need to tear out (perhaps I could get a rebate on the price)?

Glad AM's doing well, he was an eccentric but a nice guy for all that. Don't let the song fool you . . . I liked Andy A to Z, but didn't like having to be in the sim. Mr Smith (the Ayatollah) was referenced in the last verse, and it was the time of the Tehran hostages to give you the context.

Was trained by Chris Morley and Paul Bergeman (mainly) Kilwhang was there at the same time too.

[November4]

Mention of Mr M and his books made me do a quick search on the south American river site. A brand new copy of his workhorse book is advertised at £1007.01 plus delivery!

[smujsmith]

Brian,

You can keep all of your pages. You may well be grateful. I'm subject of a shot at Goose Bay (re Loxing) on the way back from a Belize trip. Page 135 if you do ever get a copy of Erks on Herks. Even better I'm the one with the full face mask so no need to destroy pages. Interesting to see a picture of Herbie Habberfield being supervised by his crew, when he was the S&D GE, not your usual subjects of publicity.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/075e6bb8370e828f8f6831294d0215d4_zpsozw5bihi.jpg

Smudge:ok:

[kilwhang]

Brian,

While mentioning Chris Morley and Paul Bergeman, let's not forget that great guy Roy Beavis.

Roy had a fantastic sense of humour and coped admirably with cancer until it finally prevailed. He was instructing in the sim on a Thu but died over the weekend.

[ancientaviator62]

kilwhang,
when the RAF finally made up its mind to put the ad hoc AQM (later ALM) trade on a proper NCO Aircrew footing it needed a categorisation scheme. And of course you needed people to run it. Andy was one of those along with a few others. This lasted for a few years until the AQM branch took over the categorisation business and a few were commissioned.
I well remember on my Hastings course Andy doing an airdrop check on one of the instructors from the safety of the flight deck !

[Alison Conway]

Kilwhang,

I'm glad that Roy Beavis has been mentioned - what a sense of humour in the face of the enemy! On the occasion of being taken down route to Cyprus for what was his last time out and about he went to Imprest to get some Cyprus pounds for buying.......fruit of course. The Imprest officer was a WRAF pilot officer who (according to Roy) had been in the Air Force ALL DAY. She mentioned to Roy that she thought a Master Engineer should have neater haircut than he had....he agreed, yanked off that duff wig that the medical people had given him, and said that he would take it to the barber's immediately for a trim......cue floods of tears and retreat into back office. But the classic has to be at his funeral, when Nick Nichols looked up as we were leaving the crematorium and saw smoke - "Quick, back on the bus, or Roy will beat us back to the bar". Ah, the days!

[middlesbrough]

Knew Roy before his Herc days. 204 sqn Ballykelly; a guy with a great sense of humour and a penchant for hot curries or Honkers stew with masses of chilli powder.

Ex maritime and test nav.

[kilwhang]

Alison Conway

Thanks for reminding me of the wig story - typical Roy. Like you, I was at the crematorium and heard Nick's remark. We all laughed out loud, knowing just how much Roy would have appreciated it........the Ayatollah was not amused.

[chopper2004]

Was attending BGAD 2014 back in Sept and took these from the exhibition and Snoopy parked to one side ;)

Cheers

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_6043_zpsbrk0sfux.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_6057_zpsnwx2grqh.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_6075_zpsqhxsbmrp.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_6084_zpsdpfqlu8v.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_6091_zpsujgxvign.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_6098_zpsv9me4tek.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_6101_zpsd7dxc6xd.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_6104_zpsyx0vfobq.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_6108_zpsnunzk2cw.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks for sharing Chopper ... Nice pics :ok:

[smujsmith]

Nice photographs Chopper, I must say though, as an ex 'K' GE, I could never imagine wanting to gaze out of the "square" window. My flying experience was formed through the "round" window. With respect to Play School:sad:

Smudge :ok:

[ksimboy]

The "J" is beginning to look more like the Klassic, external tanks fitted, if they moved the probe over to the other side and took a few blades off the props!:oh:

[middlesbrough]

Didn't realise this was for ex AQMs and GEs only.

[Alcazares48]

Didn't realise this was for ex AQMs and GEs only.

I am sure Navs are very welcome! ;-)
Just wondered if we were at Boscombe at the same time?

[Brian W May]

Sorry
Didn't realise this was for ex AQMs and GEs only.

Yep . . . SOD(CAT) off?

[fergineer]

Middlesbrough 3 of your types I could have been your Eng.....now there are many people that make airplanes fly and all of them are welcome on here to have their say so if you don't like it you know where to go

[ksimboy]

well said Brian and Fergie :D

[CoffmanStarter]

Good morning everyone ...

Tomorrow this thread will be celebrating it's first Birthday ... With just short of 350,000 Hits and circa 3,000 contributions it has turned into a marvellous record of RAF K Albert's service and shares some wonderful stories and pictures from the people who clearly still hold the Hercules in great respect and affection.

The thread has been on the PPRuNe Mil Front Page all this time and has brought together so many old friends and colleagues both Air & Ground Crews ... which is truly wonderful :D:D:D:D

Many thanks to everyone who joined in when I opened the post last year ... I would like to particularly thank AA62 and Smudge for their continued support :ok:

I'm sure there are still more stories and pictures out there ... so here's hoping ;)

Best regards ...

Coff.

[ancientaviator62]

I think the originator of this thread established at the very beginning that it was for all who had an interest in the 'K'. This includes those who have enjoyed watching well as those who were invovled the the day to day operation in whatever capacity.
It was also established that we would try to keep the thread clear of the type of denigrating posts that have blighted so many other threads.

[middlesbrough]

Keesler technicians solve years-old mystery illness aboard C-130s - U.S. - Stripes (http://www.stripes.com/news/us/keesler-technicians-solve-years-old-mystery-illness-aboard-c-130s-1.339611)

[WE992]

Smudge - You and I have seen far more exotic places out of the round window than people will ever see from the square window. However the square window is slightly more comfortable as there is a fold down seat fitted to the inside of the door below it. I always liked the round window when coming back over London at night.

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
happy birthday to your baby. It certainly has grown in a year.
I am just very happy to have played a part in this tribute to the 'K'.

[ancientaviator62]

middlesbrough,
thank you for the link to the USAF Hercules article. In 30+ years with the 'K' I do not recall any such problems with my health.
Perhaps one of our technically qualified members could comment

[Doobry Firkin]

ancientaviator, I believe the issue is with the 'J' model as the air con / pressurisation system was a new design and more efficient than the previous models used.
Strange how just 1 small part, in this case a rivet, can apparently cause health issues though.
Got to give a :ok: to the engineers who wouldn't be beaten and found it

[ExAscoteer]

AA62 I have it on good authority that the J has a different pressurisation system to the K which is (apparently) more powerful.

[smujsmith]

WE992 #2874

Noted about the seat inside the door, must be a great perch for the current GEs. From my memory, my favourite view during my time as a GE was coming back over Paris one very clear winter evening, the lights were nothing short of spectacular.

Middlesborugh, thanks for that very interesting link to the report on the cabin pressurisation problems in the J fleet. It sounds like the corrosion could be caused by dissimilar metal corrosion, leading to the corrosion products being fed in to the cabin, and thus to the occupants. I remember some years ago being on board a K, when, on take off from Laarbruch I believe, the cargo pack Cold Air Unit went in to meltdown. By the time the ALM called the front end, who aborted the take off, the whole aircraft was filled with some very acrid smoke. Similarly, you can imagine these corrosion products circulating around the J.

Happy thread anniversary to all who have contributed to "Coffs baby".

Smudge :ok:

[Trumpet_trousers]

From my memory, my favourite view during my time as a GE was coming back over Paris one very clear winter evening, the lights were nothing short of spectacular.
I, too remember some spectacular lights whilst flying abeam Paris one evening - but the 'lights' were fires started by rioting students. Unfortunately, the Pompiers managed to extinguish them.. :}

[smujsmith]

TT, classic !

Whilst we are on the subject of Air Conditioning/Pressurisation. I was reliably informed that the F117 air con system is actually the flight deck conditioning pack from Albert. My informant suggests that they used off the shelf components where possible to avoid revealing "new development". Anyone know anything about it ?

Smudge :ok:

[Brian W May]

Just slipped my anorak on for this one.

The K model flight deck conditioner handled a mass of 30 lb/min (15 lbs/min from GTC).

The late H models had larger ones (similar to cargo cpt) 70 lbs/min.

OK, that's why we used to go 'Supercool' on low level. AirCond/NoPress with the Aux Vent Valves open to get ram effect too.

Anorak OFF.

ps all the above IIRC

[smujsmith]

Ahh Brian,

"Supercool", now there's a blast from the past. As a Sgt rigger linie I debriefed a crew off a local sortie one lunchtime, who had a follow up low level trip that afternoon. The Engineer was adamant that the air conditioning was so noisy that the crew had difficulty communicating on intercom. We had 2 hours to test everything that we could, and did so. Once again NFF appeared in the F700 and the aircraft was presented to the crew for their afternoon sortie. This was prior to my GE days, but I was always happy to offer my services as an impartial observer, which was accepted by the aircraft captain. About 5 minutes after departure it became quite obvious why the "air conditioning" was noisy, something I could not deny. But I had noticed that the Eng had configured the system in an unusual way, pulling CBs etc, and that was the cause of the noise. I enjoyed a couple of hours of superb low level flying, and was told by the Eng on landing that he would be "re snagging" the noisy air conditioning. With the captain present I put the case that his configuring the system as he had, had created the noise. Also that "the book" precluded his use of the "supercool" set up. He didn't snag the frame. Years later, as a GE, I understood fully, certainly low level in the Gulf, why supercool was a necessary abuse of the system, but could never fathom why an Air Eng, who set the system up like that, could snag it for being noisy !!! I bet there's a few Engineers who used it though. And I for one would never blame them.

As we are in to "confessions" anyone interested in the Sarajevo vacuum cleaner ?

Smudge :ok:

[Brian W May]

Yep, it required pulling the c/bs. Although I have wondered when Engs were setting the system into Supercool if they knew exactly WHAT they were doing - in fairness most did.

Salutory tale, in the sim, we used to advise against pulling the Gear Warning Horn c/b when flying with one Simulated Asymmetric. We said the danger is someone forgets to reset it.

Didn't happen in my time, but then XV304 happened and it had all the hallmarks of exactly this problem. Had the horn c/b been set, as soon as they selected 100 flap, the horn would have gone and you'd be unable to cancel it without retracting the flap lever above 70% (?) or getting locked gear.

Ho hum.

[smujsmith]

Brian, so right, and how easy it is to operate outside of the standardised training, and forget to reset to "normal" before RTB. When I was on the line, as a rigger, we used to hate it when SF were given a MK3 for night ANVIS training, or TALO. Eng Ops never seemed to realise that the pilots were unaware of the difference between XV222 and XV205, and, as riggers the replacement of the urinal drain tubes was guaranteed. Despite the "this is a Mk3 aircraft" signage on the panel. But then, that's pilots for you. No offense chaps:eek:

Smudge :ok:

[DCThumb]

I think the K must have suffered some sort of air conditioning issue. Many crews reported extreme dehydration, headaches and nausea on the morning after a flight........

[ancientaviator62]

DC,
must have been due to the Kokinelli they used to top up the hydraulic systems in Akrotiri !

[ancientaviator62]

I used to enjoy flying over London on a Friday night and seeing miles of very slow moving lights as the traffic crawled along the M4.
The 'K' air con system always seemed to be tainted with fumes and the whole a/c of hot hydraulic fuel . Then of course the tanker smelled of fuel especially after standing in the sun at ASI. Can I sue the government for Aerotoxic Syndrome ?

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ... Would that be for Kokinelli or Avtur poisoning ;)

[ExAscoteer]

Coff, it certainly couldn't be Filfar poisoning because we burnt all that, although I'm less certain about the fumes!

[smujsmith]

If coming back from a westerly direction, Screech often had an effect on maintaining ones station in ones hammock, operating a hammock under these conditions was a trying task:rolleyes:

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
I might try the Kokinelli route first (pun intended) as if HMG had not sent us to Akrotiri then we would not have been exposed to it.
'Res ipsa loquitur' !

[Top Bunk Tester]

The 'Flaming Filfar' has been a party trick of mine for over 30 years, having been taught by Greg, the owner of Sylvana's in 1981. Never been burnt but have watched in great amusment as others have tried to keep up (After warning them of the of the dangers first, of course) :oh::oh::oh:

[Alcazares48]

Remember being in the Sgts Mess @ Akronelli during Granby, you could not move for ascot crews, rodneys as well. Somebody mentioned that I had just got engaged and suddenly everyone was buying me brandy sours. I crawled back to our basha that night.

[smujsmith]

Alcazares,

I may have been there that night. As I recall our commissioned crew members were swiftly banned by the jobsworths of "happy Holidayville" ! As the SNCOs were then banned from being hosted in the O's mess. It all served to alienate base facilities at Akrotiri as anti transport fleet as I recall. The bonus with Akronelli was the off base facilities, that never let us down.

As a GE I enjoyed a week away in Hungary, as part of a crew delivering a disarmament inspection team, Gopher 01 might well have been the "senior" GE on the trip. As we had little to do for five days, our hosts arranged "cultural" events, always escorted by our new friends. One of these events involved a 3 hour (each way) coach trip to lake Balaton, for a paddle. Having no option we trooped aboard the bus (similar to RAF standard MT) and set off. About an hour in to the journey we stopped for a quick lunch at a Hungarian military base. We were all entertained in the officers mess, regardless of rank, and our meal was accompanied by copious quantities of fruit flavoured schnapps, seriously, by the half pint. I did dangle my toes in lake Balaton, but our return trip, involving a stop for dinner at the same officers mess, including more half pints of fruit flavoured schnapps (ISTR Blackcurrant ?) ensured a total lack of interest in a tour of Budapest bars that evening after return to our hotel. JACIG trips were often either bloody great or bloody horrible. I would put that one as a good trip. Was it you Gopher01 ?

Smudge:ok:

[Dougie M]

I recall a memorable JACIG trip to Schoenefeld Airfield in East Berlin when the only route in was via the Baltic Sea and down through Polish airspace. Slightly embarrassing when our route maps went white at the border. Saved by a tatty Jeppesen we made it to find that the entire crew were accommodated in one room. "Nein danke" we said. "But Interflug crews always stay in one room", they said. " You speak the lingo, Nav, tell them about 38Gp Regs" Turning to the Herr Flick fellow I said "Singleroomsfor seniorofficersandcaptainandofficersdonotsharewithairmenaircr ew" "Vun moment" he said and there we were with a fourteen bed dormitory each. I won't mention losing our minder in the bars of East Berlin when he got p****d and we slipped away when he went to the bog but things got a bit chilly when the Vopos found us. They also baulked at the 10 bottles of bull's blood requested at dinner but we said we were off our food. I swear that the steaks were equine.
They got their own back when we demanded to go to Cottbus and they refused. You Must comply we said. You can't land there, it's a helicopter base and the runways are pot holed. ..... Bugger
The visit to Potsdam was marred by me pointing out that the Union Flag on the conference table was upside down.
"If it was good enough for Churchill it should be good enough for you!" was the reply. "Tell him who won the war" said the Detco. "They all speak English" I said "they react to comments before I translate"
"Very clever, Englishman" said Herr Flick
At the farewell cocktail party we put on the full "Iceland spread" from the bulk rations with glasses full of cigarettes around the tables. It was good to see that the East German Airforce Officers swept all the stuff remaining into their SD caps to take home. Some things are international.
On departure after saying "Da'Svidanye" to the obvious Soviet stool pigeons amongst them we did a "Most righteous" low level departure and climb out. ATC complained until we reminded them that the international pressure settings were millibar/hectopascals and heights in feet not metres, so sorry.
Question: Where did all these anti-West Commies go when the Wall came down? Herr Flick probably runs the "Cancel the British Rebate" part of the E.U.

[Brian W May]

Nice one Dougie. I only ever did the Control Zone flying - in circles to keep our right to fly in circles over Berlin current. Cliff Foggo was on the one that collected the ND in the wing causing subsequent serious fuel leak. They must have missed us . . .

We went through Checkpoint Charlie with lots of cameras pointed at us (doubtless so Ashford had something to work with), but in the last year or two me and SWMBO stayed in the Hotel Angleterre (really), just up the road from the checkpoint.

We wandered through the area around the river and the Vopo shooting gallery - quite spooky.

Also, looking at the chariot on top of the Brandenburg Gate was weird as I'd only seen it from 'the West' and now I was in Unter den Linden looking towards 'the West'.

[CoffmanStarter]

Dougie M ... Have you ever thought of writing a book containing your stories ... It would be absolutely hilarious ;)

[smujsmith]

Coff #2898,

Even in this enlightened age, the censor might struggle to allow such a tome a public airing:rolleyes: I reckon I would preorder delivery though. Come on Dougie, a few thousand pages should give us all some memories to treasure.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Doug,
reminds me of JACIG trips to the 'other side' where a box of Mars Bars would open all sorts of doors in the 'workers paradise' so beloved of the UK Marxists. Biggest problem was aways the 'food' and trying to dispose diplomatically of the rocket fuel that masqueraded as vodka.

[Alcazares48]

Not C130, (sorry) but mention of the JACIG trips brings back memories. I ended up on Open Skies at Boscombe Down so had to endure six years of travel to the old Iron Curtain countries. So many stories and incidents that, like Dougie´s anecdotes, could probably fill a book, but as they are not "K" related will only mention one.
We were in Kiev and had a 20 minute lumpy bumpy taxi, avoiding pot holes, to take off for a demo flight over the airfield; we had senior Ukrainian Air Force officers on board. Air traffic would not clear us for take-off as they said they had priority traffic using the airspace. We told them that WE were the priority traffic, but they were having none of it. :ugh:

So, we did the lumpy bumpy 20 minute return taxi by which time the Ukrainian colonel was apoplectic and stormed off the aircraft up to the tower ready to put a controller in front of the firing squad.
By the time we were cleared to continue we needed a refuel and the bowser driver could not be found.

[Brian W May]

Oh dear, we'll be running into Brixmiss stories and meaconing of the Brekendorf TACAN in the Berlin Corridors (all fascinating stuff) next.

I now come here for my nostalgia fix, but it isn't what it used to be!

[Alcazares48]

Nostalgia never was Brian ;)

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
perhaps the mention of Op Sedburgh may reset your nostalgia. that is if you were involved.
Was anyone else ?

[November4]

No prizes for guessing where this set of photos are from. Taken in June 1995

Landing.

http://i59.tinypic.com/fb9xjq.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/292mtg6.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/33c0yvp.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/dh5t10.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/20qf3f4.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/28kobvt.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/35iru37.jpg

Taking off.

http://i59.tinypic.com/2cootw4.jpg

And one from Sept 1994

http://i61.tinypic.com/345fyh5.jpg

[R4H]

Just found thread and spent last night reading through. Although not Changi, before my time, may be able to answer some bits.


AOB - You need to pull 2g at 60AOB to maintain level. Lockheed pub said 60AOB was imposed to limit g required to below ac g limit. 45AOB with flaps down was for some other structural limit but memory gone on that one.


ULLA - dropped and taught(day drop then dummy passes at night to get used to flying at 10 feet before live drop) on lots of drops. 3ULLA had gone so only 2ULLA. Easy to drop and quite accurate as to stop point of the load. Trim change wasn't too bad as although stick forward at 10 feet as the load moved, in the dark, as load went ac ballooned upwards and you weren't pushing into the ground. Difficult not to hover over or follow through on the controls if teaching but that would have been poor instructing. My brief to handling pilot was that if the wheels touched just squeeze away from the ground rather than pull as I didn't want to increase deck angle if load went.


Only had one nasty. Drogue deployed on run-in and ALM reported it had deployed. Unfortunately on release the strop had wrapped around the bag preventing chute deployment and in the dark the ALM could see that strop was taut and assumed chute had deployed. Load obviously didn't goat green-on. Flying at 10 feet, in the dark, with a live load, towards KVL hangar, with my glider in it, was a bit fraught until ALM made things safe.


It was found that some of the strops used during an ULLA drop weren't to correct spec and we had been lucky by using training weights but a op weight drop could have gone very badly wrong. We didn't need the capability and the Army were asked to pay for new design, development and testing of new strops. They declined. End of ULLA.


HSP. Probably dropped the last one. As newbie on HOEU was given the job of trialling a new HSP. Went to BZN to see the beast. Platform framework was rectangular with no chamfer and I wasn't convinced that it wouldn't hit the raised door if it tilted at all on final phase of extraction. Platform was brought to LYE and after loading and unloading lots of times and with much head scratching and muttering it was scrapped!!!!! Couldn't believe they had gone this far without aircrew input.


Old HSP was built from bits at BZN and plan was to do three trial drops, two under ballast and then a live load. Previous drop some years before hadn't gone well when the load moved but took a long time, and subsequent large and prolonged trim change, before going. I believe this was put down to the final restraint strop, designed to snap, being wet and therefore stretching quite a bit before snapping. Handling notes read by myself and Nav. Co was to handle throttles and advance, without being told, if the IAS dropped off rapidly. Handling pilot was to have both hands on the stick and had to achieve full forward stick within 1.5 seconds IN AN ATTEMPT TO CONTROL THE PITCH ATTITUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The two ballast drops were cancelled for various reasons. The live drop was scheduled to fit in with a VIP drop demo and although poor trial procedure we were told to go ahead with the live drop! As you might guess, not all went well. Load moving and trim change was interesting but easily managed. Load went out then load transfer failed. Live load, HSP plus Scimitar tank came down vertically gun first. Not helped by a couple of chutes failing, probably through airsteal. Impact was quite impressive according to ground party. Platform and tank then fell onto its back, upside down. Very bent gun and tank. End of HSP. (Colonel who owned the tank wasn't happy, even less happy when AD Staffie was heard to say, "oh well, that's trials work for you". I have some pics but they are on an external HD that isn't playing at the moment.

[Brian W May]

AA62, whilst the name rings a bell Sedburgh is not in my logbook.

I used to enjoy Gib, eating down by the marina.

[Dougie M]

The Pongos took over the mess eventually (as they do) and banned us from drinking in the bar in flying suits. We protested that it was "working dress" like the green outfits and big boots that they were wearing. A large jock captain told us "those were the riules".
Well we had been dropping some EOD guys in the harbour and informed them that we couldn't have a post flight beer with them after the night drop.
"Be there" they said.
Well we landed on (it being only 5 mins flying and 10 mins legging it to the bar)
The usual huffy welcome was apparent. Then from the beach down from the bar patio came these ominous plopping sounds. The EOD team emerged from the waves in full diving kit and flippered their way to the bar. Raising his face mask up to his forehead the lead diver said " I'm Major ****, in working dress! I wish to buy the crew a drink!
No complaints


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/75a86f88-d078-4be1-8226-d047af276dc4_zpscbjfigdx.jpg

[condor17]

Happy anniversary gents , thanks for educating and entertaining posts .
Chopper and prev. Sad to hear of Snoopy's demise . Hope history doesn't repeat itself .... As in after the Rolls Royce Rb211 was certified ; the VC10 testbed was scrapped .. no one looked ahead and foresaw the need of a flying testbed for future generations of Rolls Royce engines.... expensive hiring of US equipment has been necessary ever since .

Now trust a civi to point out the obvious .... Chopper did really well in his posing of 3 types of ''Herc'


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t372/rcondor17/G-HERC002.jpg (http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/rcondor17/media/G-HERC002.jpg.html)

A tribute from Marshalls ? or bought and paid for by decades of Herc work ?

Rather neat all the same .

rgds condor [ Marshalls trained by 'K' test pilots and when not testing.....Cessna 150 instructors]

[smujsmith]

Dougie M,

Did you ever do a trip when "beverages" we're not available? I can't remember who was responsible, but well remember accompanying you on a stumble through the jungle to qualify for a few beers with the Hash House Harriers, on our way to Oz. Looking at November4 pics of Albert at Gib, I thought he had photographs of the aircraft we took to Oz, but it's 220 and my records suggest we conducted our visit in 210, including the Sydney diversion. Keep posting your memories Sir, a pleasure to read.

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Dougie,
great story to go alongside my tale of being allowed to open the Army SNCO's bar in Nicosia when I was a MACR.
Op Sedburgh was the farcial Beira oil patrol when the Shacks operated out of Majunga and we supported them. Mainly with Griffon engines ! Someone else here must have been to Majunga.

[smujsmith]

I have just been informed of the passing yesterday of Terry Pitt, after a fight against cancer. One of Eng Ops more colourful Flight Sergeants he was well known to many of the aircrew for his art productions and cartoons. Some of you may have known or worked with him, so I thought it appropriate to note his passing on this thread.

RIP Tel.

Smudge

[middlesbrough]

Was called Operation Mizar in the Shack world. Did four two month detachments from 205(Changi) and 204(Ballykelly), 1968-1971.

[ancientaviator62]

R4H,
welcome ! Thank you for the very interesting airdrop stories. I am sure dragartist can add something to them from his perspective. Would really like to see your pics if they can be rescued. When I did the HEART job one of the Boscombe Down chapa claimed that the Herc had only ever been cleared for double ULA, not triple. I produced some pics at the next meeting to prove we did indeed do triple ULLA.
In respect of aircrew invovlement when the HEART went to Abbey Wood to ask about the 'J' we were told that the sole RAF presence at Lockheeds was a pilot and an engineering officer. This for an a/c for which we were to be the launch customer ! When I asked why no loadmaster involvement the reply was cost !

[Dougie M]

The trips to Madagascar were like stepping back into French colonial history. The overnight stops in the Hotel de France started by throwing an insect spray bomb into the room then going to Madame Givaux's for the evening. After many Trois Chevaux beers you could face the megadeath in your room. The forest of weakly waving antennae and the crunchy floor would have deterred lesser men. More spraying in the mossie net never got the last one and the sheets looked like red polka dots in the morning
Happy Days


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/d21f53c3-d1ef-4f7d-a71e-449950da064d_zpsdpcuieqt.jpg

[Dougie M]

The movies about Madagascar are fantasy. The reality had no penguins.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/b2c6a4c4-9a46-456d-bcdb-ba802fee2d72_zpscclejepc.jpg

[ancientaviator62]

Doug,
your description has rekindled those memories perfectly. I recall going to our room to find that it was already occupied by ladies plying their trade !
I was always glad to get airborne and away from the mossies and bedbugs.
But what a farce the whole OP was by whatever name. Rhodesia was getting the fuel overland all the time and the UK government knew it.

[Dougie M]

Madame Givaux also offered other services which could be bartered for with cigarettes, chocolate or duty free. Rumour has it that the only "germs" contracted in Majunga were gracefully donated to a shack mate by the European French daughter of the Mayor.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/94e1a473-5832-4872-97bf-8d582be88e84_zps5vtmt00n.jpg

[ksimboy]

Dougie's tale of dropping the chaps in Gib brings to mind a similar exercise based at RAF Butlins. Having dropped the troops at Ladies Mile for the 3rd time the crew were relaxing at the open ramp waiting for the next lift. The local ice cream van appeared at the offices opposite us, cue ice cream van being summoned to Alberts ramp so the Loadie could supply the crews chilled rations. Troops appear to find van still there, "slight delay while we finish our 99s" quoted the Nav. Ring any bells Dougie?:ok:

[dragartist]

Welcome on board R4H.
I think we did HSP a good few months back. Coff may have posted the picture of what I thought may have been the last. It was not the tent peg you speak of.
It was I who finally withdrew the clearance for HSP in around 2001/2. I had been around the project since 1996 when JATE designed the new aluminium tube side frames. that was a disaster with no wash away (that what we called it the US referred to tip Off) the frame would have twatted the door with end Ex for those on board. A drop went ahead with the steel girder load protection frame around the Diesel CVRT. (I think we did two that year, one on Purple Star and the other in UK as the Diesel CVRT trial)
After a break from AD I returned in 1999. Parky (who died in Kenya at the hand of villains a few years back) was keen to get HSP with troops following. TROC on MSP prohibited this. It was at a time when nothing was free and there was no cash. AML, the DA at Newton Abbott wanted a small fortune for modifying the JATE Side frames (JATE did not have DAOS at the time) so we went for the girders again. I insisted on checking the envelope calculations and found that we needed to take 4" off the aft legs. It was this that broke the camels back and I withdrew the clearance. No funding was made available for the rectification. You were a good deal lucky to get away with what you say was the final drop. I am really pleased I made the right decision and you and others are here to contribute to this forum.
The role equipment had been cobbled together from Boscombe Down. I had arguments over who owned the role equipment. (DERA/Q2 wished me to pay them for doing a trial of something that had been in service). I think we also found an updated TRAM and pantograph mechanism in the shed at Boscombe for the platform. This had been the through the AML Mod process as far as P&T but no cover mod in the APs I could not find the signed up MPF or certification. Certainly located the Skydel centreline floor beam. I had taken advice on lifing on some of the SWRs. My Gp Capt was happy to take a risk having seen them greased up by the Tiffs at 47 who had found a set in the hangar at Cerney that were unused but out of life. The APs were not very good either. Crap in fact!
I don't think what you say about lack of aircrew involvement was true. We had JATE Flying section at the time and after that the HOEU. The guys at Boscombe (all persuasions) had a hand in most things. Humph (Engineer) used to come to my LTCs and other meetings. VX275 is pretty expert in these things. I know he had his nose put out of joint by the Q2 management along with a good number of the Ex AD guys.
It all comes down to money and we tried to do our best on a shoe string. The cross beams from the old side frames were in use until fairly recently for rolling platforms to determine CoG. I do hope the last HSP got on display at the Airborne Museum Duxford. I hope they preserved an MSP as well. I banged out a few years back.
I think I have seen the triple ULLA photo AA62 talks of. ULLA appeared very prone to maldrop!

[R4H]

HSP 2001 CVRT trial was mine that had the transfer release failure. Wasn't there also some contention on the HSP Mk2 failure to release drills in that the ALM might be required to dress aft of a possible live load?


Looking at logbooks - I flew 22 ULLA sorties with just the one failure already mentioned. No one else had an ULLA maldrop during the period. All double ULLA. I understand that triple ULLA was more prone to problems, mainly on impact, before my time.

[Dougie M]

An interesting fact we discovered whilst training up a Lyneham crew when I was on JATE was that if the landing gear rolled along the ground on the extraction phase, the latch went across and the load would not extract. Quite an attention getter.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/e3955a40-29c6-47f7-803d-d91cb343a6ca_zpszuwsvvqt.jpg

[smujsmith]

That's interesting Doug.

Obviously the touchdown relay came in to operation. obviously explains why the pallets rolled off the aircraft whilst taxiing by USAF and USMC aircraft must have been "manually manipulated" overboard. As seen on videos covering Khe San re supply etc. did we ever roll freight "off the back" whilst still on the move ?

Smudge:ok:

[DCThumb]

"Zebras can't fly" after all!

(Although can't remember how that fits into BANGEARO....)

[KenV]

Can't speak for the C-130, but that's a specific design feature of the C-17. The C-17 is designed to stop on the runway, the pilots bring the engines up to high power with brakes on, the loadmaster does a "gang release" of all the pallet locks, and the pilots release the brakes, literally driving the aircraft out from under the pallets. USAF calls this "combat offload" on the C-17.

[smujsmith]

That sounds like a great concept KenV, as long as the ground movements people can clear the runway of the cargo very quickly. If it's a manual, dismantle and carry the freight away, it could deny following aircraft the opportunity to land. Thanks for the info though, come on loadies, we must have offloaded like this at some point in time.

Smudge :ok:

[Brian W May]

I think it was the release switch on the flightdeck that didn't work on the ground IIRC, part of the ADS. Wasn't there a switch down the back to allow it to be tested sur la terre?

So the gear touching the ground would prevent the release of the drogues to pull the main chutes out.

It's possible I'm talking utter bollocks but something is ringing a bell . . .

[WE992]

Smudge yes but not very often. I can recall doing it at Imperial County airport in Grand Centre just outside El Centro when we arrived too late to land at El Centro as the airfield had shut and the freight was needed ASAP. We then had to beg the use of a rough terrain forklift from a site down the road to pick the pallets up and load them onto the vehicles which came for them.

[smujsmith]

WE992,

Thanks for that. I remember Imperial County from my "El Centro" det. Although my only claim to fame was "borrowing" a "huffer" from the USN at El Centro, whilst awaiting the arrival of GTC spares, and having it stolen from the Holtville strip :eek: Thank goodness I never signed for it, I would still be paying now. Having taken part in the Sarejevo Airlift, I'm sure a rolling offload would have aided our swift departure from the target zone, but as I remember, there was no taxiway to dump it on, and, with an aircraft arrival every 15 minutes, might have pushed the guys on the ground.

Smudge :ok:

[smujsmith]

Check PMs

Smudge:ok:

[ksimboy]

Smuj,
It required special pallets with built up sides so you could (a) lock the pallets into the side guidance and (b) fork them out of the way after offloading. The J did an exercise in the boonies of Louisiana in 05 which involved tac offloads. They borrowed the special pallets from the USAF and we sent the nsn and specs back to UK, for the expense versus potential usage deemed to be a non starter, shame as it was fun to watch.

[dragartist]

Hi Dougie, I think the weight on wheels switch was hooked in to the parachute bomb rack selector switch on the flight deck.


Ken, Our J has the early generation Brooks and Perkins with the bicycle chains and operating leavers. (No electrical interlocks at all) If I recall the port side lever had to be operated to open ALL. two levers on the Port side, one to shuttle the bicycle chain which enabled the individual latches to be selected open or close. the The Stbd lever was operated to EMERG to release the springs on all of the airdrop latches operated a shaft with a series of cam followers to jettison the load in either a true airborne emergency (Pallet on fire) or Combat Offload.


I think the HOEU did pay on the grass at Lyneham letting a few pallets go. The 463L pallets were in short supply (like Rocking horse s#it) following a debacle betwixt AAR Cadilac/Capewell and Amsafe Bridport who were fitting them up in the UK. I think dropping a pallet off the ramp rendered it unsuitable for further use hence the ones Ksim speaks of. I think these fell out of the DRAS (Dual row airdrop system) 88 x 108 on the C17 cheaper than a Type V and more effective than a double row of 48" wide CDS.

[Jackw106]

Sarajevo has been mentioned here is a clip from that era

https://vimeo.com/52824622

[smujsmith]

JackW,

A crew from hell for sure, I'm sure many on here will recognise the participants. It's a good clip though, and shows that Albert was often "in harms way".

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
yes there was a switch down the back (on the starboard side) to check the bomb racks on the ground. This switch was not originally fitted in the a/c. It appeared when all the a/c were modded for ULLA. A 28v socket also appeared under a small panel on the ramp to power the EPERA.
Prior to the switch fitting a jumper lead had to be used between two connectors to test the bomb rack on the ground. In the early days the Air Eng had to witness and sign for this test. Lots of bomb rack problems in the eraly days due to robbing from a/c to a/c and poor rigging instructions.
I believe the 'K' was the only model to have twin bomb racks. I wonder if the 'J' does.
I have described our 'famous ' high altitude ULLA maldrop in an earlier post.
This was due to the incorrect manufacture of the 'Y' strop. I do not recall any other real problems dropping ULLA but it did seem to be very height sensitive !
My recollection of the a/c touching the DZ is that it was after the load had gone. I could hear and feel the wheels and the Eng would get a light up of the anti skid system.
R4H do I understand you were doing these trials in 2001 ?
The ALM was always required to go aft down the port side in the event the MSP did not leave the a/c. Been there got the strip ! This was to visually check what had or had not worked. With a high frame double load the only thing you could check from 245 was whether the extractor had deployed.
The state of the EPERU etc required the walk aft. You would of course have pulled the EPERU emergency handle that you had so carefully tied up to the stanchion at 245. In theory this rendered the main parachutes incapable of deploying as you wandered down to the ramp. If all was OK you could then fit the the additional aft restraint chains (not 'Emergency Chains') close up the a/c and RTB to wait for the JATE investigation team. I think I have bored on enough for now !

[R4H]

For ancientaviator.


The HSP drop of a Scorpion was in 2001. Maldrop. Will see if external HD can be repaired and then get some photos from it.

[smujsmith]

Ksimboy,

So, there was a plan for the J to do rolling offloads then. Just typical that the bean counters used funding to stop it. I'm sure there would have been a practical application for it. Especially as, it seems, it's a standard operation for the C17.

Smudge :ok:

[Mickj3]

I was at Stanley in 82 when the runway was closed to fixed wing movements for 2-3 weeks. Can someone who was involved tell us how long the mail drop/grab flights were. Also any interesting tales from that operation.

[KenV]

The C-17 does not use 3rd party cargo handling systems. The C-17 cargo handling systems and air drop systems were all designed in-house by Douglas Aircraft and were fully integrated into the C-17's cargo floor and loadmaster stations. There are 18 463L pallet positions in the C-17 and all the pallet locks are electrically operated and can be released individually or in groups, including releasing them all in a "gang release".

I know Airbus folks looked at the C-17 cargo handling systems and considered a similar system on the A400M. But I understand (but cannot confirm) that they decided this was too expensive and went with 3rd party systems similar to the C-130, which each service had to buy on their own, separate from the aircraft.

For a C-17 "combat offload", the pilots do an assault landing which minimizes the landing rollout and then they back taxi to the approach end of the runway by backing up under aircaft power using thrust reversers. While backing, the cargo door is opened and the ramp lowered to the level position. When they get back to the other end of the runway they stop, hold brakes, run up the engines to high power, the pallet locks are released, the brakes are released, and after the last pallet drops clear, the ramp and door are closed while simultaneously increasing power to max and they accelerate and take off again. The entire evolution from initial touch down to back in the air can be done in as little as two minutes, theoretically less time that it takes the bad guys to spot the plane and get mortar rounds on target. Of course this means the guys on the ground have to dodge mortar rounds while they are unloading/moving up to 18 pallets of stuff.

Since the C-17 can deliver up to 18 pallets at up to 10,000 lbs each in this manner, there is "usually" no need for another delivery for awhile, so having the runway tied up with cargo should (theoretically) not be a problem. But this is not always the case and it was not the case in Afghanistan and in Iraq on a number occasions. If the runway is long enough, a different but similar tactic is used. In this case the aircraft lands upwind as usual and does a high speed taxi to the other end of the runway. At the other end the C-17 does a quick turn around (C-17 can turn around on a 90 foot wide runway under its own power) and then does a combat offload at that end, but this time accelerates and does a downwind takeoff going back out the way it came in. Since its taking off very light it can usually be done with little runway even going downwind. With a long runway (6000 ft or longer) up to four C-17 loads (72 pallets!) can be offloaded very quickly in this manner. More typically, two loads of vehicles are quickly driven off and then two loads of pallets are combat offloaded. A complete Marine LAV Company (LAV=Light Armored Vehicle, based on the 8x8 MOWAG Pirhana) was delivered this way into Afghanistan.

Here's a video of a C-17 combat offload of 16 pallets:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJt97q49GRU

[smujsmith]

Ken V,

brilliant vid, showing exactly how it could have been done by Albert too. I have some unpleasant memories of doing a "walk round" of our aircraft during the offload at Sarajevo, which this sort of offload would have precluded. I have found a new respect for the C17, a mighty beast indeed.

Smudge:ok:

[KenV]

Ken V, brilliant vid, showing exactly how it could have been done by Albert too.


Can Albert's loadmaster release more than one 463L pallet lock at a time in the RAF? Or would they use the airdrop system? In the C-17 the logistics cargo handling system (which uses 463L pallets) is different than and entirely separate from the airdrop system (which uses Type V platforms.)

[smujsmith]

KenV,

Good point, and obviously my poor use of vernacular incited the response. I would never knowingly knock the speed or capabilities of a C130K Loadie, but, tested against a fully automated, purpose built system, I see why Albert didn't do this "modus operandi". As for speed generally, you would do very well as a GE to beat a Loadie to the party room :rolleyes: Point well made.

Smudge :ok:

[dragartist]

ULLA had disappeared from the MAR long before 2001. It was still in the C book for a while after this.


I am not sure if some of the EPERA kit ended up in use with PURIBAD when we had the 21ft extractor. As soon as we adopted the 10ft the kit was disposed of. Not sure if it went to South Africa


I think I recall one of the MADs telling me about ME One tons without static lines hooked up being used for combat offload from the K but this may have been a JATE trial to prove an emergency drill.


My memory fails me AA62 you know I can't recall if the J had the twin bomb racks. I know we did sequential sticks with Type V in the early days. I can't honestly remember if we did a split stick without having to close up and rig the extractor in flight. I think I had gone before we ever got round to doing a double PURIBAD with the 24 ft boat from the J. I know we did it on the K. It was quite crowded.


Interesting tale about having to install the switch for ULLA on the K. We did a similar thing on the J to install a "Winch Armed" switch at 245 beside the LAPES switch for use with CDS at P-x and after the safety pins had been removed from the operating lanyards.

[dragartist]

Ken,
We are beginning to get off thread. This is about the K. I am also guilty.
The K used Skydel Cargo handling system. The latches and locks and rollers are totally different from the US Aircraft. It was not till we had the J did we have the Brooks and Perkins.


The pallets and AD Platforms had pegs sticking out the side which sat in hooks to prevent forward restraint for airdrop. Aft restraint was mainly though the centreline beams with T Bars and straps. There was little commonality.


I am sure we could fill a book!

[Trumpet_trousers]

I know Airbus folks looked at the C-17 cargo handling systems and considered a similar system on the A400M. But I understand (but cannot confirm) that they decided this was too expensive and went with 3rd party systems similar to the C-130, which each service had to buy on their own, separate from the aircraft.

A400M CHS/ADS systems are designed in-house, but the components and hardware are supplied by 3rd party suppliers, no different to C-17 in that respect. A common system is built in for each aircraft. It is compatible with 463L/HCU-6, Type V, and French BT13.

[ancientaviator62]

R4H,
if you have managed to read all the postings on this thread you will have seen that at JATE we were dropping the Scorpion in the 1970s. I only ever recall dropping it on an MSP (the Jaguar engined version) but dragartist recalls dropping the heavier Diesel version on the HSP. I find it odd that the 'wheel'
was being reinvented in 2001 especially as the HSP was supposed to be 'not wanted on voyage' from not long after my time at JATE.
As I recounted in a previous post we also dropped troops following an MSP.

[R4H]

Don't know why they were trying to bring HSP back as I was new guy and program was fairly well advanced for HSP Mk2. As I said, the one I dropped in 2001 was a cobbled rebuilt original HSP. That was the re-engine diesel Scorpion. T**y B**d (007) was Alm and Nav (C****dad).

[gopher01]

I'm afraid my JACIG wasn't to Hungary so no, I wasn't with you on that one Smudge, however I did fit in one to Moscow, one to Kiev and the best one to Prague where once you were in the military hotel it was open season on where you wanted to go apart from the organised visits to a traditional castle, very turrety and historic, a visit to a glass blowing empire, their crystal glass is absolutely first class and a visit to the original Budvar brewery, purveyors of the original Budveiser, (who when sued by the American Budveiser company for using " their trade name" pointed out that they had been brewing Budveiser since before the U.S.A. had been invented and nothing more was heard). I fitted in a visit to Kebly near Prague where they have an excellent aviation museum, all sorts of aircraft you never get to see in the U.K. I imagine they weren't as worried about security as Prague was full of trippers from the U.K., Germany etc.

[November4]

I got tasked to Prague in May 1994 for 2 nights. Not JACIG, but with a small flight from 47 Sqn. We were briefed to keep it quiet that we were English as we were not to draw attention to ourselvesas they were not many English tourist there and it would be difficult to be unobtrusive.

Landed, did the offload, Hercules departed and the MAMS team were taken to the hotel and told to go and explore by the Embassy staff. A trip in another taxi to Wensesles Square to find the place was full of English coach and hundreds of English tourists. So much for keeping quiet about being English....

Have to say that Prague was one of the best night stops I had.

[smujsmith]

Gopher 01, thanks for that, and I recognise a few of the "diversions you were attracted to. I remember going to a ballet one evening, followed by a day trip to Lake Balaton, where we were plied with very strong, flavoured Vodka, at every stop, by the half pint. I did, of course resist :rolleyes:

November4, You and your team were probably part of the "English" tourists that Gopher remembers.

JACIG was always a treat I think for the AGEs, it was a week on the ground, a chance to unpack your bag, and a chance to mingle with the enemy. Something not dissimilar to a weeks leave at home :=

Smudge :ok:

[dragartist]

R4H, I managed to find the photo of HSP. It was normal for the print to have a neg number on the back but this one did not so I can't swear if it was from 1995/6 when I was at JATE or in 2000 and something. It would most likely have been a JATE image as personal cameras were not permitted.


I remember the bit of wood with the power bulge over the barrel and all the horse hairhttp://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w35/dragartist1/HSP_CVRT%20JATE_Resized_zpsm38vzmlr.jpg


As for why in 2001: I can only guess that the drive was for troops following which was flavour of the month. Since TROC prohibited following troops on MSP, HSP was an option.


Now take your self back to the political climate. It was cut cut cut and lots of salami slicing. ownership of the AD capability was in a flux. DEC had not stood up. There was a lot of posturing going on.


I had been told of an era when we dropped 20 MSPs a week. I think we may have managed less than 20 in that year. The operating cost was horrendous. We still needed all the people in factories that serviced BARCPs, made TROC Cables, Chains and tensioners, Fixed Role equipment, Built furniture and skid doors, Straightened out bent side frames, packed chutes etc. In truth we could not afford to do all these things.


We only had a couple of HSPs and I could not see the point but did my best to rustle things together. I guess someone was trying to live in the past.


This was the same time as we had what we thought was the best in the world and were the best in the world at it. We were being asked by the US to front another project. Our contribution being the highly skilled and best trained and disciplined manpower. In truth we could not afford our meagre subs to the golf club.


I wonder what we can do today.


We must pay tribute to the aircraft we had at the time. It was not the C17 or A400M. We certainly did more with the K than ever with the J. Hopefully A400M will leapfrog.


We dreamed about having C17 for AD but recall it being said "If we are not allowed to drop anything from them just paint them white and park 'em up at Brize" - That was then and this is now I think all the aircraft we have had have been worked hard.

[aeroid]

You are quite right dragartist. I think that the K has been hijacked. Being a bear of little brain I often get the Puribad and Epera confused with the Lapes switch, especially when comparing it with the 463L/HCV type V. I personally preferred to cross an R2D2 with a C3PO and replace the Birmingham 6 with Tfor2. If that is followed by 5L of 6X you can guarantee that you will finish up with Sweet FA! And I used to think that you guys were asleep down the back.

[smujsmith]

aeroid, if that's the case, let me offer you a little 'K' balm.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/image_zpsd4b913f3.jpg

I think this is this ones second outing. Taken during op Winter Express, and a shot of 205 doing some SF support. The tall bloke at the back was the boss of the "Hereford Hooligan" element, on that Det.

We had a bit of an incident on this one, that AA62 (a professional aviator) might explain better than myself. One night we were tasked to drop a "team" on a HALO trip. They were to use the "Canadian tube", a system that has high merit IMHO, to arrive at their DZ with all of their equipment (the Ski's, snow shoes and weapons going down in the Canadian Tube). We did the drop, but the chute on the Canadian tube failed to open, so the troops lost their kit. As we had dropped them in a seriously remote part of Norway, their late arrival at the target site (for their dummy bombs) raised no eyebrows. But when they were 3 days late, a search was undertaken. The lads weren't found. 2 days after that, the "bomb signs" turned up on target, and the troops were recovered, not necessarily in the rudest of health. Having lost their kit they had evaded (the search aircraft) and reached their target despite the loss of their kit.

I was only a GE, but seriously had a lot of respect for both SAS and SBS troops, who even on exercise gave of their best.

Honestly aeroid, it's a K :ok: Now AA62, the Canadian Tube ?

Meanwhile, a more sedate trip down the South Atlantic ;

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/image_zps109d4829.jpg

Smudge :ok:

[aeroid]

Thanks Smudge, A view that I recognise, though before they fitted the plumbing and spoiled the view. Oh how I remember those days back in '67 blah blah blah, time for my supper, someone has found the corkscrew.

[dragartist]

Sorry Aeroid, I had a drop of Aspels Premier with my lunch. That accounts for the slurred speech. An Air Despatcher type had told me that you don't get a headache with cyder. He lied!


Don't forget you are not allowed to smoke 8 hrs before flying or drink within 50 yds of the airplane.

[smujsmith]

Aeroid,

A vid to accompany your post supper wind down ;

http://youtu.be/aVjuw3g7jgE

Some good airdrop action too. Have we seen this before ?

Enjoy

Smudge :ok:

[aeroid]

Thanks Smudge, It brings a tear to a glass eye

[ksimboy]

I recall dropping the Canadian Tube on Det in El Centro, the trainee Pathfinder asked how close he should stay to it. I suggested in case of a malfunction he stayed close enough to see it but far enough away to avoid trouble. Said tube descended from 18k on drogue only , and what had started as a 6 ft high solid object was reduced to a 4 in high pile of broken bits, kit inside didn't fare very well either! Left a substantial crater in the dz too.

[Dougie M]

The tube followed by troops was not exact science and subject to glitches but the patrol was obliged to follow this overgrown toilet roll inner because the contents were vital to achieve the objective. Once in the frozen wilds of Norway I committed one of these tubes to the rarified icy sky at night laden with skis and rations for the accompanying Marines. The chute DID deploy arresting the tube but the base plate did not. The DZSO clutching his Clansman in the dark only heard the whistling skis and poles as they stuck into the snow all around him. Only after a few norgy beer some days later he said that when we asked for a "Drop accuracy" he was prompted to yell "ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY!"




http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/8693776a-3bc9-4a18-a568-5a49b880307e_zpsjznvtdny.jpg

[dragartist]

Ksim, I like the comment "how close should we stay too it" Clearly not close enough before the silly sods tied themselves too it and it became the MTTB as in Dougies picture.


I remember one that was very long and got into a bit of a scary oscillation. He was a long time cutting it away.


Do they still have CADS or anything similar? It was obsolete years ago.

[Dougie M]

Good spot Drag. You will also notice that it's a J it's emerged from. Only source I could find an airborne tube. I never observed anything from that angle. (Nor did I do assisted free fall whilst on detachment).
I launched a 1ton CADS on the Yuma range with a huge likely footprint of where it might go. It had a mind of its own for the first 3000 ft then when it responded it couldn't make the DZ. The jumper with it called it "A ****ing waste of time and money" And so it was.
I've done MTVPS tho. Unnerving being lashed that close to a PJI who had garlic prawns the night before.

[dragartist]

Dougie, I did not wish to antagonise Aeroid by mention of the J. Or the square window as Smudge referred to it last week.


In my day CADS only went to 350 lbs (may have been 400 with the French Square chute). We never got the French chute in what we called the Duplex bag which could be rigged for Freefall with the old Irvin Hightfinder so it was only Static line for HAHO.


I too spent a lot of time over the years at YPG with various crews. I used to sing a little in the Sage and Sands or Pop the Top. We also did stuff at El Centro and China Lake. We did the CADS Mk2 trials at CL in around 2002.

[smujsmith]

ksimboy, Dougie et al,

I knew someone would know of the Canadian Tube. ISTR being on a Det to Souda Bay when they were trying a steerable version of the beast. The steering being controlled by one of the accompanying troopers through a wired up glove, with the thumb having the "circuit" and the four fingers contacts for forward, back, left and right. It seemed to work well during the daytime, we didn't try a night drop. I'm sure it must have been a "hairy HALO" trying to formate on the tube, steer it after chute deployment, and control your own rig. Great photograph Doug, as it's a J, are they still using the Canadian Tube ? Apologies if you have already answered this, I was only a GE and never understood acronyms.

Smudge :ok:

[dragartist]

Smudge, The switches in the fingers of the gloves was CADS. The last version I saw had a weather girl type switch which fitted under a flap on what was the HAPLSS Gloves. (HAPLSS was the High Altitude parachutists Life Support System which included thermal clothing and O2)


What Doug showed was the Military Tandem Tethered Bundle.


The Canadian tube was a cardboard tube (concrete pillar mould) with wooden ends. It came down under a drogue till a hitefinder popped a round aeroconical at low altitude (hopefully after the troops had popped their square mains.


MTTB, CADS and ski packs under 28ft Utilities used the tube. CADS also used a plastic rectangular box. The payload of such systems was very poor. The cardboard tube and wooden bits was very heavy.


If ever cut away the MTTB used a CYPRES as in use with the skydiving community.


I will try and find a picture of CADs for you.

[smujsmith]

Drag,

Thank you very much for that. Obviously what I saw was obviously CADS then. Obviously I never felt that I had "the need to know", on the SF Dets, my job was to ensure the crew had a serviceable platform for them to jump from. YLSNED, as they say :eek:

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

Smuj.
There were only a select few G.E.s who were considered top bananas for the role and the social side of certain Dets. You were one such. Hope the experience didn't scar you for life. Happy days

[smujsmith]

Doug,

No way was I scarred, though a bit broken at the end. Of 30 years in the RAF, my best few years were when I served as an Aircraft Ground Engineer on Albert. For someone previously confined to hangars and flight lines, this was a different world, and I reckon Gopher 01 would support that contention. I thinks I was a very lucky bloke to get the opportunity.

Smudge:ok:

[crashtest]

Some massive beadwindows going on here...

[Dougie M]

You think? Hardly. Check out Military Parachute Delivery Systems on Google. Lots of up to date colour pics and adverts.

[smujsmith]

Good post Dougie. Certainly opens your eyes to current (well mine anyway) capability. A lot of very modern kit on public view.

Smudge :ok:

[R4H]

On a drop in Norway the chute on the tube malled. Nav plotted where it could have landed and we set off and found it in the snow. DZ party then went out and retrieved it. The snow and the packing did a good job. Full of skis and only two were damaged and even those were able to be bound and made reasonably useful.

[R4H]

Had one of these loads just exit stage right once despatched. It was a trial at China Lake and the trial team hadn't checked the frequency with all other agencies. Surprise surprise with all the transmitters in the area there was a clash of freqs.

[smujsmith]

OK Gentlemen,

I came across this, very poor vid on YewToob recently ;

http://youtu.be/oYBNKH3sJI0

Is this representative of procedures ? I see lots of high ground, a fly by to warn people off the strip. Anyone recognise the strip ? What sort of altitude was it ? And what sort of load could be put in there by Albert ? I'm sure there's a few out there who could answer these queries, without breaching OPSEC.

On the subject of Ethiopia, anyone know this chap ?

http://youtu.be/AXiHO3pkrns

Or this one ;

http://youtu.be/G4QLv9yV7gA

Over to you.

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

Smuj
These interviews were done before this excellent thread afforded the opportunity to relate tales of derring and not so derring do. To be dragged out of a Squadron reunion and plonked in a museum piece Herc (Note all the blanking plates on the Nav panel where the kit has been removed) to tell your story removed the veil of anonymity. This is a great forum to state your case in relative obscurity.
Long may it continue
By the Way. VE Day today does not necessarily mean Victory in the Election!

[smujsmith]

Dougie,

Totally agree, and suspect they might both have been filmed at Cosford. At least some record of Alberts service in the RAF has been recorded on video for posterity. Meanwhile, this thread, under Coffs leadership, will hopefully continue to accumulate anecdote and pictorial records, as I'm sure you agree, there's more to come.

Smudge :ok:

[dragartist]

I think our chum AA62 is amongst those interviewed on camera at Cosford. He appears to have gone AWOL or did Coff sign his leave chit.


Also thoughts at the moment with our A400M pals.


Drag

[smujsmith]

Seconded Drag.

Always sad to hear of such a loss. AA62 has obviously decided on a sabbatical, he deserves one after his contribution to the thread. Perhaps he's cadged a route on a J :eek:

Smudge

[November4]

Don't think this one has been posted here before.

Lots of familiar faces

1VV7VAImFl4

[ancientaviator62]

The prodigal son has returned from his 'skive' to France for a week. Skulking at the back I did not think I would be missed !
I do not recall dropping the 'tube' but certainly dropped winter kit for those gallant chaps already mentioned. We used to drop a form of sled with skis etc strapped on and more than once during a trial the sled and the skis made their own separate ways to the DZ.
I had huge respect for the SBS who would disappear out into the night over the water following a Gemini or Zodiac.
Sorry to hear about the A400 crash but out of respect for them and their families and following TT's request I will leave it at that.

[ancientaviator62]

I was interviewed at Cosford on the Herc. I had a stinking cold and a sore throat and could only croak but the show had to go on !

[smujsmith]

November4,

Great video, and you are correct. Some familiar faces indeed.

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

A much better all round production of the Airlift Rodeo story a couple of years after my visit there. The engineers or "Maintenance" guys were the only winners even though everybody else seemed to be having a great time. As you say "Lots of familiar faces" but no jeeps got squashed that year.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/6bdaf643-3782-469a-ab57-c98dab5e7ba1_zpsrubv7fjq.jpg

[smujsmith]

Aahh Doug,

Precision as always. As a follow up to the superb video provided by November4 I wonder if anyone remembers the little "cheat" that Lyneham operated during Volant Rodeo. I'm fairly certain that Max B was top driver on VR whilst I was a GE. I was allocated a route to Pope, and no further, with a week off:eek: on arrival at Pope our aircraft was gladly accepted by the line support crew for the VR aircraft, and duly used for the practise days. Unlike my, as I recall, 30 Sqdn crew (Boris was the Nav ISTR), the linies on the VR det insisted that as I was the GE, I should turn up daily to see Max B and crew off in "my" frame, whilst they practised formation ground power plugging/unplugging and polishing "their" frame !! Anything for a quiet life, and, as the Heart of Fayettville was fully booked we were accommodated at another fine establishment. Imagine my surprise on arriving back at our hotel for "happy hour" to find Boris and crew had bought a couple of very efficient water pistols to "tease" the bar staff with. The bar staff reciprocated with iced water, which was a pleasant change to my usual shower. Was our "spare aircraft" ploy a one off, or normal practice ? I must say, I never got sent anywhere to have time off (JACIG excepted) so a bit of a mystery. It has to be said though that I worked every day I was there, usually the beer facilities, hot dogs .........

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Gentlemen ...

I'd like to ask a technical question if I may. I'm not expecting my question to prompt specific stories ... But who knows !

I guess my question is more for our Air Loadmaster contributors ... But not exclusively.

With all these wonderful stories of delivering, dropping and transporting cargos various I'm intrigued as to the Weight and Balance calcs/processes adopted to ensure the Herc remained within CoG Limits. I'm familiar with basic W&B calcs in respect of training aircraft where essentially the only variables are the weight of the crew plus kit along with fuel load/burn rate. So all reasonably straight forward in terms of calculating Moment Arms and CoG movement etc.

Clearly the W&B processes for the Herc have evolved over time ... and I think that might make an interesting topic. I appreciate various W&B/CoG Limits will have been 'prescribed' by Boscombe, but as part of the pre-flight planning I assume all the W&B variables would need to be 'modelled' for the entire mission profile. In the early days I assume this was a manual task ... possibly automated these days. There also being the challenge of doing this under Op conditions with urgency.

Sorry if this is a bit 'anorak' but I'm genuinely interested and the story of how these processes have developed over time could be an important addition to this Thread.

Coff.

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
the regs stated that the C of G had to remain within limits at all times, nominally between 15 and 30 per cent of MAC (Mean Aerodynamic Chord) but this did vary with the AUW and whether the externals contained fuel.
For airdrop a concession was allowed on the forward limit of up to 5 per cent to allow for split stick dropping. If the a/c had to land in this configuration then to 'help' the nosewheel it was max use of reverse and min use of brakes.
Plese do not ask about the transient C of G swings during the actual drop.
I once plotted out the variations for a triple ULLA drop and need a long lie down afterwards !
Normal MTOW for the 'K' was 155000 lbs with a landing weight of 135000 lbs.
When half the a/c were stretched this MTOW for the stretch went up to 160000 lbs and the landing weight for both to 135000 lbs.
The tanker when fully fuelled came very close to a TOW 175000 lbs, which Lockheed said was an emergency one off figure. It explains why they would have nothing to do with the fatigue calcs for those a/c.
As the paired internal tanks on the tanker were approx fore and aft of the trim datum it would be very easy to get the a/c out of trim very quickly when txferring fuel up into the wing tanks. I always kept a running plot on a copy of the trim envelope hung on one of the tanks.
I hope this has answered a few of your queries but I am sure someone will complement or even correct my recollections

[ksimboy]

Coff,
will get in early with my inject, then AA62 can correct me (he always was better at numbers than me!) We had clearance to exceed the trim envelope on Para Wedge sorties, while the troops were stood up and kit distributed prior to drop. The drawn trim envelope on the back of the trim sheet used to be covered in plots of trim at various stages, always fun to do! Every AD sortie was the same with regard to multiple plots (apart from double msp), equally as challenging of course was the trim plot on the tanker, using the plumb bob and etched floor plate at the rear of the wheel well to calculate the floor angle so the ALM could read the sight glass on the internal tanks, or as AA62 has previously stated use the broom handle to check the contents.

[ancientaviator62]

ksimboy,
ah yes Wedge ! When it was first mooted it was claimed it would lighten the very heavy loads the paras carried and do away with door bundles.
In the event it did no such thing.
I once plotted the 'Action Stations' C of G position of a MK 3 (stretch) with full operational paras, door bundles and Wedge before it was relased into service. As ksimboy says it was further aft than it should have been and required the 'clearance' he referred to. Add to this the slow speed of the a/c at the time of drop and you may understand why it was not my favourite form of airdrop.

[kilwhang]

As AA62 says.........Ah, Wedge.

On STS we did some of the early Wedge flights. As usual, the Loadie (Lloyd B) went to the aircraft before anyone else.
When I got there the Wedge, c/w load, had been installed and the a/c refuelled. The fuel load was very light.
Lloyd was sitting on the Flt Deck doing his paperwork and I asked him if he could show me the new fit.
We walked back in the freight bay and, when we got behind the main wheels, the a/c floor started to bounce - the trim was a long way out of limits.

Lloyd said something like 'this is not a good idea, let's go forward again' :)

AA 62 will, I'm sure, remember the details but after that the rules changed.

It was like walking across a bouncy castle.

[smujsmith]

Don't even go there Coff, Kilwhang was always a slim chap when I knew him :eek:

Smudge :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Gents ...

If I may ... I'd like to summarise to help my basic understanding so far ... Please correct me if I'm wrong. So the Herc's CoG is defined with reference to the MAC. I therefore assume that there must be related Datum(s) from which the Loadmaster can undertake the necessary W&B calcs ... I presume there are both Horizontal and Vertical Datums which will be 'marked up' in the Cargo Hold ?

The first step in the process would then appear to be the toting up of the AUW to ensure TOW doesn't exceed prescribed Limits. Presumably some adjustments will need to made for Load Moments prior to plotting on what I understand is a Trim Graph ... Which graphically confirms (or otherwise) that the CoG remains within the prescribed Envelope ?

I wonder if anyone has an example Load/Tim Sheet they could share ... it would certainly help me.

I can appreciate the importance of actively monitoring Trim movements during Tanking ... and all done manually :D

AA62 ... I must admit that when we first covered the ULLA technique the prospect of a 'marked' nose up pitch movement crossed my mind :eek:

This is truly an interesting topic ... for me at least :ok:

Coff.

[dragartist]

Just a quick input for now: It is not just a case of the keeping the aircraft straight and level. Load forward and aft may do this but the fuselage may bend in the middle.


I really wrestled with an MSP (or double MSP) issue for a good few months. This was over the vertical position of CoG within the platform which had an impact on the bending forces on the skydel beams. - in a nutshell they would have broke in a hard braking condition. The restraint was so close to the margins anyone stood in front may have been crushed. OK how many ALMs went to the flight deck during take off and landing in order to comply with AvP 970. I am not sure if this was read across into OO-970. You will have heard the term grandfather rights.


The good guys at Boscombe had retained the worlds only copy of the Skydel type record. Even the DA did not have a record.


What a difficult job the ALMs or load planners would have had as there were severe changes to the MSP load configurations forward and aft with so many permutations and combinations. I remember preparing tables that went on and on describing the achievable level of restraint at various weights. I think the only one not affected was 105 ammo with no side stores.


(see Dougies picture showing the wooden sheets to which were strapped boxes of ammo to max out the load- this became outlawed out side of an Operational Emergency Clearance)


I printed loads of pictures from what we called Medium Platform Clearances, reduced the pictures and made cardboard cut outs to play the tunes and develop the instruction.


For another similar challenge I made a wooden model in my shed with rubber bands to describe the effect of overturning moments and forces.


I am sure some will have tales over kgs vs lbs.

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
we used the Load Distribution and Trim Sheet for all normal calculations.
This rather went out of the window for EROs (Engine Running Onloads) in operational conditions wherby you would load up and catch up with the paperwork later, perhaps ! Then you relied on the weights presented to you (if you were lucky) and your own experience to ensure the a/c was safe. No doubt some of our contributors can give examples.
The first stretched 'K' loading I did the a/c was nose heavy. So I took the very heavy HD cargo winch from FS 245 and tied it down on the ramp.
Perfect ! Anoher lesson learned.
I gave most of my 'K' bits, including a trim sheet to the RAF Museum at Cosford then their 'K' arrived.
Early in the life of the Herc Lockheed did trial an 'automatic' weight and balance system. It did not work very well due to the fact that the a/c had to be on level ground and with little wind. How many airfields could guarantee these benign conditions !

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
ah the fuselage bending moments saga. Better not go there. As regards the vertical C of G of the heavy drop platforms we at the coal face were in blissful ignorance of how marginal these limits were. I only found out from you contributions to this thread ! Mind you I confess to asking the JATE designers how they calculated the vertical C of G of the loads especially the war load 'piggy' backs some of which looked very 'iffy'. I was effectively told that if the load was approved for dropping then ALL variations had been taken into account. Umm !
The Beverley had a vertical C of G load plot on the trim sheet but the Herc did not.

[Blakey]

Sorry to interrupt the intellectual discussion but I just wanted to post a big thank you to November 4 for the video; it brought back some good memories. Strange to think that of the two crew members you see most, one became an Equerry to the Queen whilst the other spent time at her Majesty's Pleasure. That's probably part of the reason why the video has gained internet dust and I certainly haven't seen it for 20 years plus. My children have never seen it and will give them a good giggle so thanks.

As a light hearted reminisce Smudge was quite right about there being a "spare" so that the main aircraft wouldn't be sullied by flying before the competition itself. We spent nearly 2 weeks there with another week in Pope the month before. At the end of it all, as I recall it, Boggy had bought himself a bike and a set of golf clubs and suddenly had a pang of guilt on the penultimate day. He ought to buy his wife something - he came back from the BX proudly with a set of saucepans!

Regards,

Blakey

[R4H]

Never dropped triple ULLA but double ULLA trim change was no problem during extraction. A short 2-3 inch forward stick movement for a couple of seconds as it moved to maintain level, then back to neutral as it cleared the aircraft. Although at only about 10 feet you weren't pushing into the ground as the aircraft climbed having lost the weight.

[smujsmith]

Blakey,

Thanks for confirming my suspicions. I remember having a conversation with a Nav from a competing Canadian team the year I was GE on "the spare", he was quite put out that, despite there being no rules to prevent it, it did give an advantage, even if only by saving the groundcrew the cleaning that everyone else underwent. After a couple more beers, he agreed that the RAF team was only guilty of making life easier for themselves, and not improving their chances of winning. That was down to pure skill.

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

The competing teams from the States had (spare) airframes available for the flying phase of Rodeo. Because there were no alternate flying days there was no chance of calling in an Ascot route aircraft to "fill in" on the day so we used to park and aircraft at Charleston for a week during the flying phase, with an MSP stowed in the back. I don't recall it being in inspection condition for the Concourse D'Elegance but it worked. The crew were all tac qualified in case of sickness in the competition crew.
I do recall that each morning we would report to the captain's suite of rooms on the waterfront as he called the Detco in Pope.
When the airframe and crew had taxyed out we then changed into party kit.
A suggestion that a crew Tshirt logo should read "I had a fag and a shag in Charleston was rejected. (the local dance was a shag, honest)
Much more fun than Rodeo and a lot less stress. Charleston is SO much nicer than Fayetnam.

[smujsmith]

Doug,

Charleston, I should be so lucky. And of course we take your word for the translation of the local dance. For me, I will always remember the Heart of Fayetteville https://www.cardcow.com/295384/heart-fayetteville-motel-north-carolina/ and "the Blue rinsers". Always a good night out on the way to somewhere. Only time Pope was a destination for me was as described previously. Now, after all those years of flying my hammock, loadies are alarming me with "bending moments" etc. I have to say, that once the AA was consumed in the climb, the transit to the ACC was usually noisy, but somnambulant. It's a pity you aircrew missed out on some of the "all night" mending the aircraft stints though. But then, we all had to earn our corn occasionally. But only occasionally. Did I tell you about my only ever visit to California ? A sidewinder of a route with a sting in the tail ?

Smudge :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks AA62 and Ksimboy ... I'll come back shortly ... SWMBO has me otherwise tasked today :ooh:

[OmegaV6]

Overwhelming memory of the "Heart of Fayetteville" was the "blues & twos" arrival of the sheriff and his posse of deputies - 4 car loads if memory serves - when a load of fireworks were set off near the end of a rather boisterous party - that had already involved the sqn cdr and his "guest of honour" ending up in the pool .... It seems the border between North and South Carolina was also a border for the legal/illegal purchase/use of fireworks ... the purchase on one side and the igniting on the other being highly frowned upon.. somewhere in the attic are, I think, some photos .. I'll attempt to track them down ... :)