Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules

[CoffmanStarter]

Wonderful pics Upgently ... many thanks for posting ... we all await your return to the thread :ok:

Coff.

[smujsmith]

Upgently,

Your pics are Albert heaven, great posts. Looking forward to some more in the near future, on your swift return. Best.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

upgently,
great pics of our nicest colour scheme. Ah Kathmandu. Did several trips there. I have a pic somewhere which will appear in due course. Today is a continuation of the airdrop theme. 'Load gone' could well be the title for this. Hopefully the next one will stir Brian's memory and encourage him to post his pics. The DZ is I think Kahang Kahang but hopefully Brian will remember.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000024A_zps586871cd.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000024A_zps586871cd.jpg.html)

[Brian 48nav]

Sorry AA62 - as explained above things are a bit tetchy this end - hope to hear about our planning before departing tomorrow to Romsey for No2 son's wedding. Looking forward to No1 son's best man speech, should include lots of in-jokes as both bride and groom are ATCOs at Swanwick.


I really have very very few slides from those halcyon days - perhaps Test Pilot son can explain to me in simple words how to make slides into photos and put on here. Mind you he hates PPrune so he may not help :(.


Looks like Kangar Kahang - I still have the maps we used for the low-level route we flew to get there.

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
understand about your priorities. What I meant in my clumsy way is that you may confirm or otherwise my recollection of the DZ. The next few in the series should interest you.

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ...

With our good friend Upgently temporarily away for the moment ... a quick question if I may ... @ Post #494, am I correct in assuming that the airfield is Tribhuvan (so named in 1964). It would seem to be a concrete surface ... if so ... Tribhuvan was made a concrete surface in 1957 ? The dates seem to fit ... or was the airfield in question one of the more "interesting" sloping strips that I understand Kathmandu "enjoyed" back then/even now (like Lukla [aka Tenzing-Hillary] Airport ... with it's 1,509' strip and a 12% gradient @ 9,383' AMSL :eek:) :ok:

Kathmandu/Tribhuvan 4,390' AMSL ... I wonder if RAF Albert has Landed/Taken-Off at higher airfield altitudes :)

[foxvc10]

What did the Americans think of the crud and custard paint scheme?

[Mal Drop]

Nairobi Jomo Kenyatta springs to mind at 5,327' AMSL. That provides a cue for a story about a co-pilot (NATO reporting name OSLO - and yes, I know there were a few with that descriptor) playing footy at Nairobi. He wondered why he got tired so quickly and asked a friendly crewmate who explained that he was quite high up and the air was a smidge thinner. He then (apparently) asked how high above sea level he was when he had a kick-about at the next destination, he was on the beach at Mombasa at the time.

I would imagine that at 9,228' AMSL, The old Quito airfield would be quite high for Albert's adventures.

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Mal Drop ... Can I take it that you are claiming an Ecuador conquest with RAF Albert at 9,228' AMSL :ok:

[ExAscoteer]

AA62 ...

Kathmandu/Tribhuvan 4,390' AMSL ... I wonder if RAF Albert has Landed/Taken-Off at higher airfield altitudes :)


I've been to Kathmandu, but some higher elevation fields that I took Albert to include:

Eskişehir Air Base, Turkey : 8461’ AMSL

King Khaled Air Base, Khamis Mushait, Saudi Arabia : 6459’ AMSL


Jomo Kenyatta International Airport, Nairobi, Kenya : 5328' AMSL

Hill Air Force Base, Utah, USA : 4789’ AMSL

[Mal Drop]

I haven't made the Quito trip Coffman but as an ex-Lyneham Staish got the Air Attache gig there I think he must have wangled an Albert in at some stage.

I'm afraid Nairobi is probably as high as I've operated from with Harare at 4,887' as a runner-up. Lowest would probably be Andros at 5' on the Cocoa Beach det or Amsterdam at -11' on a Euro trainer (those were the days).

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Mal Drop :ok:

Let's take ExAscoteer's claim for Eskişehir Air Base, Turkey @ 8461’ AMSL ... and see where we go from there :D

Out of interest ... how did RAF Albert generally cope with high elevation/hot airfields ... could you still go off at Max AUW @ 8000' AMSL ?

Any takers for lower than -11' BMSL ... quite a bit of scope for RAF Albert there I would have thought :ok:

Just to complete the picture ... ignoring circumnavigations for the moment ... I guess we should record the furthest West RAF Albert has traveled (flying East to West that is) :)

[ExAscoteer]

Out of interest ... how did RAF Albert generally cope with high elevation/hot airfields ... could you still go off at Max AUW @ 8000' AMSL ?



Generally speaking, with somewhere hot you could become 'Temp Limited' on the engines (1067/1083C) on T/O with a concomitant reduction in maximum available torque.

This is why, during Operation JURAL going in and out of Dhahran, we tended to operate at night.

With hot and high you could rapidly become WAT limited.


Another limitation that an awful lot of people forgot about was the nosewheel limiting speed of 139kts - above which it wasn't guaranteed that the nosewheel tyres would stay attached. Of course this limit really refers to TAS and not IAS.

On one occasion, going in to Khamis Mushait this limit equated to an IAS of around 125kts.

However it gets worse. For handling considerations you didn't select Ground Idle above 130kts (TAS) on the landing roll nor Reverse above 115kts (in case a prop hung up at the Low Pitch Stop). On this particular day at Khamis this equated to 114kts IAS and 101kts IAS.

All well and good, but at max landing weight of 135,000 lbs your Vat was 124kts IAS which equated (on this day) to 142kts TAS!

In other words you had to be careful and hold the nosewheel off for a while as well as delaying the throttle selection below Flight Idle.

[ExAscoteer]

I must admit I was surprised to find that Eskişehir was as high.

I went in there in mid March when it was cold (snow still on the ground), so performance wasn't an issue.

The approach was actual IF with a fairly ropey TACAN which was interesting, but that's another story.

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks ExAscoteer ...

Sounds like plenty of Wiz Wheel action prior to take-off/landing under such conditions ... and sharp eyes on the numbers :ok:

[smujsmith]

Oh dear gentlemen, I misunderstood your thrust, if you see what I mean. This GE, of considerable age and experience, shows how to deal with Alberts high and bloody freezing air conditioning, (do they still measure calorific value in Watts ?) returning from Hungary on a JACIG as I remember. He looks happy with the chain tensioners for comfort. We did have a good time though.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/6373b9e1631d9891e622290f245ec933_zps6b15fd71.jpg

On then, with performance issues then chaps. I still think that the lowest I saw Albert was the previously reported, double fuse plug blow. I could actually jump onto the RH wing tip from a small adjacent pile of blown sand:eek: Seriously though Kai Tak must have been pretty adjacent to sea level ?

Smudge:ok:

[Mal Drop]

I recall a whole bunch of fun flying in an airdrop competition in Reno against a USAF Sqn from Texas (they wanted to escape the Bible belt for a while and kindly planned an excursion of several days at Las Vegas Jr.). My crew (the comedy crew, which I got to pick as repayment for being the det Proj O) was not scheduled to fly the comp but the OC decided on the day that we were the 'chosen ones' to fly as Brit 2. Having heard that our other crews dropped long and rocked up early at several TPs on the practices, I looked at the exercise area elevation and as if by magic it was all around 4,500' AMSL.

Having a spare piece of purest white and unadulterated string I was able to quickly mark it up for the unfeasibly huge USAF low-level charts and increased TAS at 210 KIAS at that altitude (we would be knobbled for any IAS deviations) and a bit of fag packet number crunching allowed me to guesstimate that the weight of the Harness Packs might need to be significantly tweaked upwards by our 47 AD chums to allow for the thinner air (being the end of August it was also hotter than Satan's fiery underpants).

The end result was the only Bullseye of the competition and that our timing at checkpoints was spot on which meant we took first place out of the four aircraft and gained an overall win for the RAF against the USAF (on their turf and using their charts - 1:250,000 if I remember correctly, a scale which taxed the origami skills more than a little).

Having secured the reputation of the Sqn, the rest of the detachment was a bit of a blur to be honest. I'm guessing that not much of that sort of thing goes on in these more austere days...

[CoffmanStarter]

Mal Drop ... I do hope your invaluable piece of high tech Nav kit has been preserved for posterity somewhere :ok:

Talking of being preserved ... Smudge ... that Parker looks to have a 12 TOG Rating :ok:

[smujsmith]

Coff,

At least 12 TOG. I know I never left home without mine, and that includes trips to Africa in summer. At altitude in the "boudoir" area of Albert, even the arctic standard sleeping bag required support like this, whilst operating ones hammock. As I remember our hosts on that trip had plied us with rather large portions of their speciality fruit schnapps, every day we were there. I suspect my comrade in arms didn't need his hammock, somehow the standard seats were an easier option at times ;)

Smudge:ok:

[WIDN62]

Ethiopia:

Addis Ababa - 7625 ft
Mekele - 7320 ft

There were others used at various times during the famine relief ops. My most challenging was Gondar (about 5000 ft up and 4 to 5000 ft long) - a one way dirt strip that finished up as a track down the main street of the town. We got used to it, and by the second week the most worrying thing was the road journey down to the airport at Addis!

I was on an airland det, but I know some of the airdrops were done much higher up. How about - who has dropped on the highest DZ?

[CoffmanStarter]

Welcome WIDN62 :ok:

How about - who has dropped on the highest DZ?

Great shout ... Let's add that to RAF Alberts CV :ok:

If everyone is happy ... I'll gladly volunteer to keep tabs on the stats and summarise IDC :ok:

[Dengue_Dude]

Gondu (possibly Gondo) Meskel DZ in Ethiopia pans out at 8,179 feet and we were doing 4 x 1 tonnes of grain from about 10 feet.

We had the ITN camera team with us as it was the last Ethiopian air drop by the RAF. Due to the altitude, the TAS was quite high.

Skipper was Bob Rowley (RIP) and a good time was had by all.

[gopher01]

It was actually on the return from Kiev on a Jacig suffering from a nasty dose of Ukrainian vodka after an evening of return toasts with our Ukranian hosts. I was visited by a Ukranian doctor who was dressed like the doctors in many spoof films, russian fur hat, white coat and knee boots and yes she was female and quite good looking! A trip to remember!

[smujsmith]

Gopher01,

Thanks for the confirmation young fella, although the photo was mine it was a certain Tucker T that outed you (He's too shy to post on PPRUNE). I well remember that trip. I threw in Hungary in the hope you might correct me. Some great pictures you're posting mate, and I can't believe Eddie Botham was ever an SAC leckie. I will await your story. To the rest of the lads, sorry for doing a bit of GE jacking, just found an old friend. Good old PPRUNE, good old Albert I suppose.

Back to business. I see stories of RAF Alberts High, Low , North, South, East and West, of course we've yet to relate those long, long trips down South in the 80s. Having done a few tanker rotations, and standard (if you could call them that) trips to MPA, I was surprised to hear that our endurance record (Terry Locke ?) has now been beaten by a USAF MC130 two ship from USA to Korea. 36 hours non stop, supported by KC135s. Anyone have memories of those long trips from ASI southbound? I'm sure some of you operators had more of an insight than I did as self loading freight.

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
we will have to wait for upgently as that particular airfield Nepal airfield is not in my log book. Some are but stupidly they are only marked as 'strips' ! Have been to most of the places mentioned by ExAscoteer. During the build up to GW1 we were scheduled out of King Khaled at midday ! The tower gave the OAT as +45 but out on the pan the a/c and we knew it was well over that. Took a very long time (smudge will understand !) for the No 3 to condescend to wind up and come on speed.
Pic is of the Himalayas on 'Scenic Departure One' from Kathmandu. We had a regular schedule there from Changi to take amongst other things the Gurkha pensions paymaster. He would go round the various villages paying the ex army chaps their pensions in cash.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000156A_zpscc8424bf.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000156A_zpscc8424bf.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

Morning AA62 ... What a stunning picture to start Thursday with :ok:

Those Paymaster trips must have been a bit of an adventure :)

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/DZMARKER_zpscc11992a.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/DZMARKER_zpscc11992a.jpg.html)

Continuation of the airdrop pics. This is my view of the DZ as we did a 'dummy run' prior to returning for the real thing. The 'A' DZ marker stands out quite well which was not always the case especially at night. Brian and others will have seen this view many times a split second before me.

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
Gan was very near level with the sea. Must search for a pic. All those South Pacific Islands in earlier posts were not very much above the sea as you can tell from the pics. When the B747 came in service it could have problems 'hot and high'. With the original P and W engines it could struggle. So for example if the early morning take off was delayed to say lunch time then they would have to offload pax. The same could apply to the 'K' but we had a cunning plan. It was min fuel to get us to Mombasa (sea level) then fill up as required for the destination.

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
the Herk, like most of Lockheeds transports could be very cold at altitude.
I will leave smudge and others far more qualified to explain the 'workings' of the not very well designed heating system. This situation was exacerbated when they stretched 30 of the a/c by 15 feet. After many complaints they ran a trial with thermometers positioned around the cargo compartment. The problem was they were all fitted above head height and as anyone will tell you the first thing to freeze was your feet. So the whole thing was a farce. Lip service as usual.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

Understood on the pacific island altitudes. I went to Diego Garcia once, and I see its runway altitude is logged as 9 feet, that would probably be my low record. Nice one on the Nairobi, Mombassa trick. I certainly did that a few times as a GE. The other "trick" for high temperature operating conditions that I recall was the "bleeds off" take off. A few minutes of sweating ensured the full output of the engines were available.

Alberts heating system was always going to struggle with the sheer volume of the cargo bay, and although it did have an underfloor heating system, most of the conditioned air was distributed through ducting in the roof. Because hot air tends to rise, an attempt was made to move it round with a recirculation fan, never particularly effective. I also suspect that despite the thin layer of insulation, on which you could often see frost at altitude, that huge internal volume was surrounded by a pretty efficient heat exchanger. As a "frequent flyer" in the cargo bay, I do know that a high volume load in the back seemed to help both the pressurisation and heating systems, obviously reducing the internal air mass requiring conditioning.

Perhaps someone like Kilwhang might help on this, but a fellow ex GE and myself were musing the other day as to why they put the Outflow valve on the flight deck, and the safety vale in the cargo bay. Once pressurised the safety valve remains closed, unless max diff is exceeded (not an easy feat), the outflow valve however continuously allows a flow of air to pass out and maintain the selected differential. This means that there is a "designed in" flow of quite cool air from the cargo bay to the flight deck. That may well have been a root cause of many complaints from the "front end" about inefficiency of the flight deck pack. I wonder though if Navigators in particular would notice any particularly cool flow of air, they were, after all, in direct line. Had the outflow valve/safety valve arrangement been reversed the natural flow would have been towards the rear of the aircraft, possibly making use of any flight deck pack output. Not having worked on any other transport aircraft I would be guessing though that most suffered problems with heating due to the sheer volume of air needing conditioning. Blimey, don't I ramble on.:rolleyes:

Smudge:ok:

[Xercules]

I had completely the opposite problem with 20 Army pax we picked up in Eastleigh. There were at least 2 half colonels, 2 majors and suncry others who had been at the Kenya training area and so in civvies (always worn off base there and as they travelled, for security reasons).

The saga started when the refuelling trolley broke down and could not be persuaded back into action. We then had to take everybody over to Embakasi to get enough fuel for Seeb. Because of that delay we finally arrived late into the Seeb evening when SOAF were all already tucked into bed. We, the crew and all in "uniform" were allowed into the country by a back gate. The pax, still in civvies, were taken to the civil terminal but had no visas. They were only eventually released after about 2 hrs and protracted efforts from me and the Loadie.

Next morning all seemed to go well and we departed on time. About half way up the climb the Loadie asked for more coolth down the back. After several more requests the Eng said that was it - fully cold. By now all the pax were stripped off to their shreddies with sweat pouring off them. All the aircon seemed to be doing what it should but the freight bay was still hot and getting hotter. Part of the load was a 1945 field gun which the Omani Artillery was sending to Larkhill as a thank you for training. It turned out it had been sitting at the airport for sometime and was now a 5 ton storage heater pre-heated to about 45 degrees C and now doing what storage heaters are meant to do.

It was only just before we landed in Athens, about 8 1/2 later that the pax needed any more clothes. At Athens the saga continued. The handling agent put the pax in what must have been a typical holiday brochure "artist's impression" hotel right on the threshold of the runway - they could taste the jet fuel in their G&Ts on the balcony as the jets only just cleared the hotel, rooms were incomplete with bare wires and light fittings hanging from the ceiling etc etc.

To cap it all breakfast was a paltry affair with rancid butter. We bought them a second real breakfast at the airport but I learnt a lot about handling passengers from that saga - basically, if you talk to them, which we perforce did a lot over the 3 days, you can do almost what you like go them. When we finally made Lyneham every one of them came up to thank me and joke about the privations of the journey.

[Xercules]

Many reading this thread may well remember the Flying Order to take 15,000 lbs off all WAT limits as calculated from the ODM.

It was, fortunately, Embakasi this time and our T/O weight was 155,000 lbs (max normal AUW for the non-operators). All the calculations were good and we did not need all of the long (11,000 ft ?) runway. However, in view of the temperature, we decided a standing start, rather than rolling, would be appropriate (this was also in the days when rolling T/Os were frowned upon). Power on all looked good, released the brakes and, apparently, nothing happened. After what seemed an appreciable delay Albert shook himself and very, very slowly started to roll. The climb, as well, did not seem too impressive but we made it.

When we got back to Lyneham, there was the new FO. Further measurements had shown the WAT limits to be wildly optimistic - they had never previously been measured on the -15 but extrapolated from the original Lockheed flight trials (withe the A models) - and the 15,000 lb decrease was the result.

[ancientaviator62]

Xercules,
very interesting tales which many of us here can relate to. As for 'talking' to the pax I used to pester the Navs for a map with the route marked on. I would put it up in the cargo compartment and let the pax see where we were going. This went down especially well in the build up to GW1 as very few had a clue as to where they were headed.

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
went to Diego Garcia twice. Once before it was 'remodelled' and we were in the wooden shacks. The next time after its 'make over' we were in air conditioned single rooms. Tale about that and pics in due course.

[ExAscoteer]

Ah yes, Diego Garcia.

Having operated across the Far East, India, Nepal, and India (again) it fell to Diego Garcia to be the only place where I ever got food poisoning 'Down Route'.

Bloody Yankee pizza (the pizza place was the only 'eatery' open by the time we landed.

[kilwhang]

Thanks for the compliment Smuj, but I'm afraid I don't know why the Outflow Valve was positioned so far forward.

Far more worrying was the revelation by Dengue Dude that he flew down the Grand Canyon with an STS crew in 1980. I was the Air Eng Instructor on STS at the time......why wasn't it me? Maybe I was sitting on a hillside in Scotland, waiting for the Scottac crew to drop me a 'butty box'. :)

Actually, with only one Air Eng on STS, it was quite common to give trips away and we tried to give the Sim guys a few days away.

I'm really enjoying this thread but, due to a 'marital disruption' in the 1990s nearly all of my pics are elsewhere so I'm, mainly, a lurker.

As for high altitude DZs - didn't 70 Sqn do relief work in Nepal around 1970? Surely there must have been some very high DZs then.

And how far north: wasn't there a 'Nav's playtime' trip that used to go Lyn - Goose - Thule - Keflavik - Lyn. Lots of fun for the Navs but pure agGRIVATION for the rest of us :)

[Exrigger]

Sorry for the intrusion gents, as my only connection to the Hercules is the odd ferry as a passenger like the one from Turkey to UK via Cyprus (on one of the legs there was an attractive female GE who appeared to have a well tailored flying suit) and one jolly as an apprentice, but while I was watching the video from the other thread about the Harrier landing on the carrier without its nose leg I saw this and thought it might be of interest:

C-130 Aerial Achievement - YouTube

[smujsmith]

Kilwhang #536,

Thanks for that last. I suspect the position of the outflow valve must remain a mystery, for now! As for my theory about the temperature control, it was based on a trip I did, that was quite a hard work but opened my eyes to how decreasing the volume of the cargo bay makes it more efficient.

I was the SVC to an AGE allocated to a trip to Maputo in Mozambique, in the days when they had a "very" Soviet sympathising government. It was a Mk3 aircraft and the purpose of the trip was to deliver a very large tubular metal water tank, (it looked like a tank off a fuel tanger only bigger) as a gift from our government to a village in Mozambique, who had requested a large water holder. The tank, when loaded, stretched from FS245 and overhung the ramp. It's girth left around a foot of clearance on the MLG walls. It had a two way pressure relief valve on it, so offered no threat with respect to pressurisation, and was so large that we could just get some para seats down, but had to either lie along them or sit with our knees around our ears. Also coming along to unload this tank was a team of UKMAMS blokes. Now, these were the days that Akronelli would not open on a Sunday for transiting aircraft, and as it was a Sunday we flew to Cairo for our first night stop, and my first "son et lumiere". From take off at Lyneham, all the way to Cairo the Cargo bay was extremely hot. The Air Eng had full cold selected and it was doing nothing, so we stewed, even the flight deck was very warm. A long flight that needed a few beers to aid our recovery after landing.

The next day our leg to Maputo gave the same result, very hot, and uncomfortable. As Xercules explained, it was a matter of stripping to a barely decent state. We arrived at Maputu on schedule, and on shutdown were immediately surrounded by a ring of armed guards, all pointing their AKs inwards. There were no customs etc, we were to unload and get out of dodge, as if they had never allowed us in. Thankfully, our "muppet" team had helped on load the tank, so managed to get it off, without damaging Albert in the process, in about three hours. I don't think the Captain was too pleased when the people who had turned up to receive the tank remarked that they had asked for a large collapsible rubber tank, not this monstrosity. Anyway, they accepted it, and off we went, a night stop Mauritius, then Akronelli and back home. You've guessed it, we bloody froze down the back all the way home, no amount of hot selection would warm that Albert up, so we cursed it until we got back to Lyneham. There was of course nothing wrong with the aircraft, but I think this shows how high volume loads can effect temperature control. I know that from choice, I preferred a route carrying a decent "sized" load as opposed to say lots of people, or an empty aircraft. Come to think about it, were the tankers a bit warmer ?

Exrigger,

Nice movie, and I'm sure if we ever had a carrier the size of Wales our lads would have been happy to have a go.:eek: I think there was a female AGE, but after my time I'm afraid.

Smudge:ok:

[WIDN62]

Rotterdam - elevation minus 14 feet.

[ExAscoteer]

I've been to NAF El Centro, California, USA, -42'

[smujsmith]

Ex Ascoteer,

Having done that detachment looks like you just got me a new low altitude record. I notice that the Holtville strip we used for dropping during the day is listed at -11 feet, no wonder we had to climb to do HALOs:rolleyes:

Smudge:ok:

[ExAscoteer]

I'm pretty sure we did El Centro together Smudge. ;)

Sadly my LogBook only records who the other pilot was and not who the crew were.

[smujsmith]

Ahh ExAscoteer, this is the wrong forum, so I will just say, If we shared that trip, it was my pleasure, one of the best I took part in. Perhaps you will remember that we borrowed a "Huffer" from the Blue Angels, as our GTC was causing problems at the Holtville strip. We decided to leave it on the ground at Holtville and the next day it had disappeared. Despite an air search for the "Huffer" we never found it. I hope you didn't get a bill for it, I signed for it and never did. The golf was also exceptional. Happy Days.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000070A_zps3c10485b.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000070A_zps3c10485b.jpg.html)

Last in this series of airdrop pics (more later). This is the ultimate nightmare for the DZ party. Parachutes snagged in trees. At first glance looks like the Nav has miscalculated the CARP (Computed Air Release Point) calculation. But all may not be as it seems. All large airdrop loads had a mechanical disconnect on the riser line between the load and the parachute. Once the load was safely on the DZ the parachute could then drift off in the breeze without dragging the load with it. Or in the case of the heavy drop without turning the platform over.
As Brian the Nav and his colleagues would not have made such a mistake this is obviously what has happened here !

[chickenlover]

Did somebody mention El-Centro ?.........
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3912/14331846690_6390f56fea_c.jpg

[smujsmith]

Chickenlover,

That looks familiar, great shot.

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

El-Centro ...

Now that looks an interesting neighbourhood to fly in :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/imagejpg1_zps91a64887.jpg

I've also included a link below for those who might like a wider look around the LFA ... it might prompt a few more stories and pics :)

Where were the DZ's shown in the pics above ... I assume they were "off" airfield ?

VFRMAP - Digital Aeronautical Charts (http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=32.827&lon=-115.669&zoom=10)

San Diego ... What a marvellous place to visit and stay a while :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ... Great pic @ #544. Do you recall the location of the DZ in question :ok:

[4fitter]

Love the thread and may share some of my Albert Aeromed stories later. Jumped in to Simpson Desert in Australia which is 16m below sea level.

[CoffmanStarter]

You are very welcome 4fitter :ok:

[gopher01]

In ten years as a GE I only suffered three bouts of food poisoning, one as related in another thread was on a JACIG to Kiev, the second was some dodgy liver from the Sergeants mess at Lyn and the third was the result of an invitation to a Barbie with the R.N. at Diego on a Nav Trainer that went Middle East and Indian Ocean. Not that the Navy were satisfied with nobbling the GE they had an attempt at the whole crew and it was only that, as a trainer we had some spare bods on board that after due deliberation a crew was cobbled together and we departed for the next stop which was Bahrain and even then the better of the two Navs, (better in his state of health that was ) spent most of the leg stretched on the Para seats wishing for death as a relief!
And on the subject of Bahrain the supremacy of the Hercules world was demonstrated in yet another example of its organisation and nous when , at the commencement of GW1, a small party of GEs and Svc were detached to Bahrain as a handling party for Hercs passing through. By having the RAFLO already in situ the Herc Det was accommodated in flats in downtown Manama together with transport already organised, all this being operated from outside the remit of RAF Bahrain ( whose CO by coincidence , Gp Capt Rocky Goodall was my boss on 16 at Laarbruch ), until a bid for control was made which started with a request from O.C. MT at Bahrain for us to change our transport, a very nice air conditioned saloon, as our car was bigger and better than the one they could get for OC Bahrain and it was felt not to be fitting for the Herc techies to be seen to be outdoing the Boss. One up for Albert!

[chickenlover]

Coff
The drops were nearly always done at Holtville strip-just to the east of NAF El-C, apart from the odd one at the San Diego Chargers Stadium :)
I'll try and get some more up over the weekend.

[smujsmith]

I suspect that chickenlovers shot was taken at Holtville (due East of El Centro). With Blue Angel training and other important stuff I believe Holtville became the "DZ of choice" for the RAF dets. I also suspect that the chaps in the foreground are Falcons, on a pre season work up. The "El Centro " I did had the Falcs, and as I remember a bunch of Pathfinders doing HALO training and a few Hooligans. We got airborne, the Falcs got out on the way up, around 10k, then we continued upwards for the HALO. Not too sure what the drop altitude was, Ex Ascoteer would have more knowledge on that. I remember one day when I opted to stay on the ground watching a Pathfinder chap have a malfunction. I was stood right next to one of the Falcs who said, "don't look Smudge, it's not nice", so I watched as the bloke struggled to cut away the primary chute that had wrapped around him, and eventually deployed his reserve. As I remember a pop, one swing and he landed. He strained his ankle, but was back jumping the next day. Had that been me I suspect I would have PVR'd just after landing.

Gopher01. Why does your post sound familiar to me ? I suspect it reflects the way that Albert (and its people) always "sorted" themselves out, and often to the chagrin of the local reps.

On the subject of "US dets", I remember doing a det with 47SF where we spent part of the month away operating from 29 Palms Marine Corps Air base. Landing on what seemed like PSP on loose sand was interesting, and as we were a bit heavier than the incumbent F18 s, we were asked to alternate our landing directions, so as not to move the PSP too far. I remember watching a bow wave of PSP/decking lift and move in front of us when I stood on the flight deck for landing a couple of times. The accomodation was off base at a hotel that had a number of themed cabins, the crew were very gracious in allocating me a cabin next to a swamp, which had a front porch fully equipped with hammock, an essential for GE rest.

Smudge:ok:

[chickenlover]

Another snap from Holtville, not strictly my picture but it was taken on my camera, so I claim it :)
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/falcs.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/falcs.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

That's a cracking image ... timed to perfection ... many thanks Chickenlover :D:D:D:D

Note the 100% Grin Factor evident :ok:

[smujsmith]

As we used to say chickenlover "it's only perfect so it will have to do". Great shot sir.

Smudge:ok:

[chickenlover]

I shall pass on your kind comments on to the 'taker'
A few more before hitting the Rioja :)
Again, not my handiwork, but taken on my trusty wet film canon.
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/scan0001.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/scan0001.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/dcheadon.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/dcheadon.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/twoshadows.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/twoshadows.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/Strip.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/Strip.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/OpGranbyBuffHerc.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/OpGranbyBuffHerc.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/a10formn.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/a10formn.jpg.html)

Have a good weekend all

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks again for sharing your images Chickenlover ... very much appreciated :)

Have a good one yourself :ok:

[ExAscoteer]

Oh, A-10s on the Wing.

We had them 'riding shotgun' for us during the Kurdish Resupply (post GW1) armed to the teeth with 9 Limas.

I need to get into my roof space, somewhere I have some cracking shots of A-10s 'in close'.

[ExAscoteer]

We got airborne, ...... then we continued upwards for the HALO. Not too sure what the drop altitude was, Ex Ascoteer would have more knowledge on that.

IIRC the highest ever I did HALO was FL330 (and we staggered to get up there).

Generally speaking it was FL310 max.


Sitting at altitude on Oxygen with the ramp open was a lot of fun. NOT!

[smujsmith]

ExAscoteer,

Like you I remember the "buddies" close in under the wings. A particular trip to Sersink at that time might amuse a few (for future posting) but only Albert, and a professional crew could do it. I do wish you luck with boosting Mrs ExAscoteer into the loft, my experience is rapidly leading me to the thought that I might have to go up there myself:eek: Whatever, chickenlover is smack bang in my timeframe as a GE, and may well coincide with your own experiences. I see little or no intrusion from the FJ boys here, so expect they all respect who delivered their mail, parcels etc. Meanwhile, even at this hour, I'm off to try and get Mrs Smudge up in the loft again, I know I have some decent photographs somewhere. A good weekend to all, it may mean nothing to many but we are going for "beer up the bum chicken"(see the "My beautiful Webber thread) on Sunday, using Old Speckled Hen for the schadenfreude of it.

Re the HALO. On the El Centro I did, one of the Hooligans asked me to film his exit. Before we depressurised I positioned myself up in the RH side of the freight door (above the ramp) with a Mk10 Bottle ? Once the door opened (it looked a long way down) I used the troopers video camera to record his jump, and he seemed pleased with the results. Once we closed ramp and door, I clambered down and found that the MK10? was exhausted. At 61 years old I can only reflect on what a plonker I was.

Smudge :ok:

[Davef68]

I recognised some of chickenlover's pics as having appeared in the picture book about Albert operations during and immediately after GW1 - it's nice to see them a bit sharper than the ones in my copy, and not cropped!

Said book also has a close in shot of a 9L toting escorting A-10

[GreenKnight121]

29 Palms Marine Corps Air base.

Known in the Corps as "29 Stumps".

A close friend deployed there (from MCAS El Toro, in the middle of Orange County, Ca), and reported not a single palm tree to be seen.

The legend was that some hard-arsed base CO had them cut down because the shade might make his Marines too soft.

[ancientaviator62]

ExAscoteer,
did 35000 ft free fall trials in the UK when I was at JATE. Very cold once the ramp and door was opened. As the a/c system was not cleared for this height we had a special oxy supply fitted at 245 with the oxy tubes routed to the flight deck. We had to pre-oxygenate for an hour before getting airborne. Smudge when I did high level para I always carried an extra Mk 4 portable oxy bottle with a locally made harness. Whenever possible on these trials we always carried a safety ALM whose sole job was to see the 'big picture' whilst the other ALM carried out the SOP drills. At those heights any small problem could escalate into a major emergency very very quickly.

[chickenlover]

ExA,
There's a fair chance we have some of the same photos -I have one of 2 A-10s tucked in taken by the other crew, I'll check with the owner if he's happy to put it up here. Meanwhile,

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/a10s.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/a10s.jpg.html)

If you like looking at Herc pics, try this link but be warned-you can lose many hours of your life in here-try different search parameters as a change of word can bring up hundreds of different pics -
https://www.flickr.com/search/?q=low+hercules

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HECAPPROACHCHANGI_zpse066c95a.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HECAPPROACHCHANGI_zpse066c95a.jpg.html)

Finals at Changi. Have you seen what they have done to Changi now ? Amazing.
I went back after 25 years and was a bit disorientated so much has changed and is still changing. The new Changi puts the UK airports to shame.
The next series of pics I intend to post will show anything but the 'K', but they will have a connection. If Coff is OK with this then I will post them with an explanation. Hopefully you may find them interesting.

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 .. You have a GREEN this end :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Have you seen what they have done to Changi now ? Amazing ...

Most certainly :eek:

Changi Civil and Military (East & West) Airfields.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/imagejpg1_zps20c453a0.jpg

Image Credit : Wikipedia

[Bengerman]

Trolling through an old logbook...

On the North South thing ... Let's see who claims an "overfly" of either 90N or 90S

July 14 1983 Hercules CMk3 XV183 Elmendorf - 90N - Bardufoss.
A mere 10 hours, all day strangely!

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
thanks for the 'Green' and the pic of the new Changi. I still have my Low Flying Chart from my time there. When my son was 'posted' out there by his firm I took it with me and compared it to modern map of Singapore. Hardly anything fitted they have reclaimed so much land. The old Beach Road where they used to play is now about a mile inland ! I wish he was still out there but after nearly five years he opted to come home. Pity as he used to pay our air fare every year to visit them. Very inconsiderate of him not to stay !
Pic is of the Singapore Grand Prix of the era . How that has changed.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000025A_zps120f41a0.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000025A_zps120f41a0.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

Welcome Bengerman :ok:

July 14 1983 Hercules CMk3 XV183 Elmendorf - 90N - Bardufoss.

I may need a bit of expert help here from a friendly Nav ... come back quick Brian ;)

Bengerman ... (Just out of personal interest ... I know ... I'm a sad Bu99er) ... Would I be correct in assuming that you routed PAED direct to W/P 90N then direct to ENDU ? Clearly there is a Great Circle Route PAED (61°15′05″N 149°48′23″W) to ENDU (69°03′21″N 018°32′25″E) Direct. Initial Heading 5.5°N c. 3428mi ... but I'm not sure if 90N is on that particular GC (or more correctly I can't do the Maths).

Notwithstanding the above ... your 90N claim is accepted :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

I thought some of you chaps might find this of interest :ok:

Here is a link to all RAF Albert (K) Serials. Thats 48 airframes XV172 to XV223 and 18 airframes XV290 to XV307 ... ALL 66 !

The information is reasonably up to date in terms of "whereabouts" ... where you will see that some of the old "girls" are still happily flying :D

UK Serials (http://www.ukserials.com) and click the "XV" Range

Note also that there is an example photo for every airframe listed with the exception of of XV180 ... just 'click" the Serial No for the image.

Coff.

[Davef68]

Their sister site has theinfo on surviving aircraft in an easily accessible format!

Demobbed - Out of Service British Military Aircraft (http://www.demobbed.org.uk/aircraft.php?type=562)

[smujsmith]

What a bloody shame

Hixon Airfield, scrap yard.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/5c8f4b8af37fb5b6fe62897f8752d641_zps512bd104.jpg

Smudge

[salad-dodger]

If you like looking at Herc pics, try this link but be warned-you can lose many hours of your life in here-try different search parameters as a change of word can bring up hundreds of different pics -

I still haven't seen one that portrays the mind numbing boredom and discomfort of travelling in the back of one of these cattle trucks. My memories of the Herc:


Rumbling ****eheap arrives at RAF wherever
Turn up at hangar many hours ahead of departure from RAF Wherever to watch flying besuited movers load pallets - everyone's heroes!
Go through RAF Plod excuse for security - w@nkers
Wait a while longer for the full RAF air travel experience
Board and select seat - nylon webbing, for the use of
Probably facing a pallet, approx 12" in front of you
Insert earplugs - you'll need them
settle in for 6 to 8 hours
no conversation
enjoy the in flight meal. White cardboard box with sandiwches (barely), Hi Drink (zero juice), dodgy crisps etc
Bottom half of body - freezing
Top half of body sweltering
Whole of body - vibrating
prepare for descent - and get soaked
Land - taxi - ramp opens - daylight!
arrive in Cyprus - more movers - W@ankers!
Immigration - F1250 etc


For you guys who spent your lives in the cattle truck, well done! For those who enjoyed it.................it's easy to be satisfied when you set your standards so low!

S-D

[smujsmith]

Salad dodger,

"For you guys who spent your lives in the cattle truck, well done! For those who enjoyed it.................it's easy to be satisfied when you set your standards so low!"

It's a shame that you seem to want to blame the people who operated the aircraft for your own experience of it. I doubt that Albert was designed to provide first class travel privileges for those who thought themselves "above the rest", in fact the best freight I experienced was the stuff that came on board via a condec or forklift. Indeed, the cargo bay was designed around the standard US freight container, never a passenger in mind. Perhaps your whinge is better aimed at the "upper echelons" who decided to use Albert to carry the likes of yourself, obviously more used to the luxury of executive travel. I suspect many of us , on the fleet, suffered exactly the situations you describe, but someone had to deliver the mail, and a slab or two of Grolsch at Tabuk, Mid GW1 went down quite well I believe. I very much doubt that anyone involved in operating this aircraft set their sights low, whatever your experience you survived to be able to post your whinge.

Smudge

[500N]

Salad

"Board and select seat - nylon webbing, for the use"

The last flight I had, I didn't get a seat, fell asleep on the ramp as no seats left !
Frozen solid by the time we came into land !


Overall the crew looked after the green machine very well over here.

[NutLoose]

Salad you missed off the list..

Please do not want a crap.... Please do not want a crap

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
agree your post in respect of salad-dodger. As our USAF exchange officer said to one senior whinger 'if the RAF had wanted a passenger plane they should have bought the 707' ! If he does not approve of us 'sad old gits' and our pics and stories of life on the 'K' he does not have to read this thread nor post sarcastic comments. Obviously his service career was on a far higher 'plane'.

[ancientaviator62]

Now and again a lucky few of us would get a trip that could be described as a 'jolly'. My definition of a 'jolly' is one that goes to nice/interesting places, late starts and short days and coupled with cheap food and beer. Your definition may be different ! The trip I am going to describe fits my definition.
The more mature reader may remember that as well as NATO we had CENTO and SEATO. When I was in FEAF the SEATO top brass used to visit one or more of the member counties once a year. The trip I did was the SEATO visit to Thailand. We took 76 senior officers in our 'K' (not one complained not even the RAF contingent) on the following itinerary.
Changi-Bangkok
Bangkok-U-Tapao
U-Tapao-Korat
Korat-Ubon
Ubon-Nakhon Phanom
Nakon Phanom-Chang Mai
Chang Mai-Bangkok
Bangkok-Changi
Everywhere was a night stop (2 in Chang Mai) and the longest flight was 2.45
from Bangkok to Changi. Definitely a 'jolly'.
The pics (I am missing probably the same number again) were taken at different places, and which was where I know not. No doubt someone out there may know.
First pic is the 'portrait of the artist as a young man' wondering if they would let him fly it on his PPL ! I invite the readership to identify the a/c involved.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/THAITOUR_zpsbb2b44b7.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/THAITOUR_zpsbb2b44b7.jpg.html)

[Mal Drop]

Bronco?

I vaguely remember making an 'Airfix' kit of one when I was shorter.

As for S-D, a brief perusal of his posting history will reveal that his 'contribution' was of his usual standard.

[ancientaviator62]

Mal Drop,
not the 'Bronco' that will be along soon.

[500N]

Cessna 0-2

[CoffmanStarter]

Good morning all ...

500N ... Yep ... But I think it might be a O-2A Cessna Skymaster (because of the Hard Points). Forward Air Control Missions.

[ancientaviator62]

Yes it is the Cessna 'pull me push me ' as as used for FAC and similar duties during the Vietnam War. A very noisy a'c indeed !

[ancientaviator62]

Anyone care to I.D the a/c next to the Cessna ?

[Mal Drop]

It seems that my 'Airfix' skills were about as good as my current aircraft recognition ones. Oh well, back to making my Spitfire armoured amphibious triplane...

[CoffmanStarter]

Fairchild C-123 Provider ... :confused:

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
correct. It is the C123. There were two versions as I recall, one of which had auxiliary turbojets under the wings. Intended originally for short trips with two pilots and a Loadmaster it was later found necessary to add a Navigator for overseas trips. He sat out in the cargo compartment on a sort of swinging arm platform which looked most odd.
The film Air America features a C123 as well as other a/c of the era.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0025_zps354f8ed2.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0025_zps354f8ed2.jpg.html)

Just so you do not get the impression that during my current saga I have ignored the 'K' altogether. A scene beheld by many on this thread no doubt.

[Bengerman]

Quote:


Originally Posted by Bengerman

July 14 1983 Hercules CMk3 XV183 Elmendorf - 90N - Bardufoss.

I may need a bit of expert help here from a friendly Nav ... come back quick Brian

Bengerman ... (Just out of personal interest ... I know ... I'm a sad Bu99er) ... Would I be correct in assuming that you routed PAED direct to W/P 90N then direct to ENDU ? Clearly there is a Great Circle Route PAED (61°15′05″N 149°48′23″W) to ENDU (69°03′21″N 018°32′25″E) Direct. Initial Heading 5.5°N c. 3428mi ... but I'm not sure if 90N is on that particular GC (or more correctly I can't do the Maths).

Notwithstanding the above ... your 90N claim is accepted

Yes, deliberate conspiracy from the Nav dept to overfly 90N.

[CoffmanStarter]

Bengerman ... Well played :ok:

[NutLoose]

Ahhh the military version of the Cessna 337 Skymaster, renowned for the rear engine catching fire without you knowing and the gear not going up / coming down. Worked on many of them, gear is a pig, it folds in, rotates about 90 degrees the retracts rearwards. So much so they have mirrors mounted on the wing so you can see the gear and the rear engine... The idea was you could get a twin without asymmetric thrust issues.
They even do a pressurised version, although a six seater they are a bit cramped and only one door with three rows of seats.

[CoffmanStarter]

Nutty ... I see what you mean :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsgKzYSujJI&app=desktop

[chickenlover]

Another one from the Kurdish re-supply phase - one of the pinkies obviously rushed back into theatre half way during its wash off-you can clearly see one wing is still pink.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/HerculesCmk105.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/HerculesCmk105.jpg.html)

[salad-dodger]

If he does not approve of us 'sad old gits' and our pics and stories of life on the 'K' he does not have to read this thread
Hey, I think it's a great thread with some cracking pictures and stories. I just wanted to balance it off with a view from the back ;)

S-D

[CoffmanStarter]

Chickenlover ...

Mind you that starboard wing appears to blend nicely with the terrain in your pic.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/THAITOUR1_zpsa2e9cbf8.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/THAITOUR1_zpsa2e9cbf8.jpg.html)

Pic taken from under our Herc.
Predecessor of the AC 130 gunship, along with the C47 'Puff The Magic Dragon'. Easy recognition task.
I had a good look round this a/c and the AC 130. But I cannot find the pics.
One of the Loadmasters on the Herc told me that a friend of his had bailed out of a stricken gunship by using the forward starboard escape hatch. I still find this incredible as will anyone with any knowledge of the Herc. But when needs must I suppose !
On arrival at the Bangkok military airfield we were met by a reception committee and band. They started up as I staggered down the crew steps with the chocks. Not quite what was intended. So for future stops we arranged for the most senior officer to leave the a/c first and take the salute then I would complete the rather more impoortant ceremony of the nosewheel chocks
When we arrived in downtown Bangkok we were accommodated in the Windsor Hotel. This was a R and R hotel for the servicemen serving in Vietnam. For a nominal sum you could order the crew pizza, which was the size of a wagon wheel. At happy hour a beer cost 10 US cents with a free Manhattan chaser. RAF heaven.
We were told that the crew was 'invited' to an official reception. We were not very keen until they said there would be traditional dancing by some lovely ladies and free food and beer. We all suddenly discovered a new found interest in the customs and traditions of Thailand.

[DCThumb]

FWD Stbd Escape hatch? The one colloquially known as 'The meat mincer'? - Wow!

Can't remember who on 242 OCU called it that though...

[Stretchwell]

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON026_zpse554398f.jpg

I've been looking at this thread for a while and just worked out how to post photos !

Remember the fire engines to Gaborone ? This one is early 1989. Usually delivered en-route to Bulawayo for the trade fair with the Falcs. Not much clearance in the back.........

[Stretchwell]

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON028_zps2d522865.jpg

Kai Tak 1989 on a Canberra PR9 deployment.

[Stretchwell]

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON031_zps21f1be00.jpg

An aircraft close to my heart - XV179 on a very cold morning in eastern Europe 1996.

[Stretchwell]

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON029_zpsa3043a48.jpg

Always good fun behind a tanker !

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ...

@ #599 I would say it's a Fairchild AC-119 but I'm not sure if it's a G "Shadow" or K "Stinger" :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Welcome to the thread Stretchwell :ok:

You've got some great pics there ... would you happen to have a logbook date/time for that AAR pic @ #604 with the VC-10K, just in case our former 101 Squadron members might like to join in :)

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
yes AC 119 but which version I know not. Great pics stretchwell, welcome to this ever expanding thread.

[ancientaviator62]

DCThumb,
the very same exit. I am pretty sure that this pic was taken through the 'porthole' of that exit. Perhaps someone has a pic taken from the outside. This will give any non 'K' readers an idea of the proximity of the prop and engine nacelle. The day after I was told this story I looked and looked inside and out of the a/c and still found it hard to believe.
I understand the 'J' has done away with this exit.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HERCSUNSET_zps22f9bef5.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HERCSUNSET_zps22f9bef5.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ... Briefly back to the AC119 if I may ... after a bit more digging ... I think it's a K (because of the two under-wing J85-GE-17 turbojet engines).

More here for those interested ...

Fairchild AC-119G 'Shadow' and AC-119K 'Stinger' (http://www.theaviationzone.com/factsheets/ac119.asp)

[ancientaviator62]

Stretchwell,
the fire tender looks like a tight squeeze as indeed many Herc loads were once the Belfst was out of service. Did not do the Gaberone trip but in May 1989 did the following. Why, I cannot now remember. Can anyone else. It seems an unusual routing.
Lyn-Bzn
Bzn-Tenerife
Tenerife-Banjul
Banjul-Douala
Douala-Harare
Harare-Maputo
Maputo-Mombasa
Mombasa- Cairo
Cairo-Rome
Rome-Lyneham

[Stretchwell]

No idea of date I'm afraid as I was tanking regularly. Maybe keep Herc and VC10 threads apart as this alone is over 30 pages ?! ;-)

[CoffmanStarter]

Stretchwell ... Fair do's :ok:

[gopher01]

During my first stint as a GE jollies such as Globals were a rather more common occurrence than when I came back for the second go ( my thanks to GW1 for that) and they sometimes were a bit more than just a Global.
My all time favourite was a trip with 24, west about acting as the support aircraft for a Det of Nimrods going out on Fincastle to play with the Kiwis. A gentle trip out via the States to NZ, Whenuapi to be precise where we had to wait a week while the Nimrods had their play and then back around to drop them off for an exercise in the Far East. A week off in Auckland was sheer hell especially as we were accommodated in the Takapuna Motor lodge, in fact we were the Takapuna Motor lodge for a week! 38 Group kindly allocated the crew 3.5 hours for cont training while we were waiting so a low level round North Island was undertaken with a conversation part way round with an RAF exchange pilot flying the Skyhawk who wanted some stuff brought back to the UK so a bonus all round.
The Captain on the trip was Max Roberts and the Co was some F/O called Kiwi O'Meegan who I believe actually survived his early enthusiasm for low level flypasts to achieve great heights!

[esscee]

Ah, there is a name who could liven up many a gathering, K***.

Formed one of the most experienced crews in GW1 with C**** K***, T** F****** and others.

A few years later designated as OC Timmys but never actually took post due to the stories of "some aircrew leaving the aircraft via chutes" inquiry that went back many years previously, so I was told.

[smujsmith]

By heck Gopher, I wish I had been a GE in your first era as a GE, but I'm glad I shared some of your retread tour. I was part of a team returning from a Malaysia trip, and we night stopped Akronelli, before going home. We were stopped in our tracks, load offloaded and had some Houchins and GSE loaded. The Tornado squadron on APC had just been allocated an extended tour, as I recall, at Dharhan. We flew the load and some of the Groundcrew there, I believe the day after Saddam invaded Kuwait, and well before any names like Desert storm etc had been allocated to the deployment. I well remember a second RAF C130 pitching up on the next parking bay to us at Dharhan, and the mentioned skipper, hot footing it to the RNZAF C130, parked the other side of us, to see if he knew any of the crew. Like many "truckees", a genuinely nice bloke who in my experience, never treated anyone with anything other than courtesy, and as long as you warranted it, professional respect. I doffs my hat, and its sad if his career suffered later, their loss I would say. Globals though? In my dreams I suspect.

Smudge:ok:

[Stretchwell]

Just after the Gulf War in 1991 there was a det to Incirlik to drop food and supplies to Kurds who had fled into the mountains to safety. The first photo shows the terrain and all the dots are tents on the mountainside. If you dropped MEs with pink chutes one day there would be a load more pink tents there the following day. Three LXX crews and one 47 led by the best of bosses CM.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON045_zps7d5b95d5.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/Stretchwell/media/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON045_zps7d5b95d5.jpg.html)

We were accompanied on our jaunts by A10s with Mavericks, Aim-9s and milk bottle dispensers ! We had a good and "close" relationship with our A10 colleagues.http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON043_zpsbc0b592d.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/Stretchwell/media/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON043_zpsbc0b592d.jpg.html)http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON043_zps2a6857fd.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/Stretchwell/media/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON043_zps2a6857fd.jpg.html)http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON043_zps6adbd979.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/Stretchwell/media/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON043_zps6adbd979.jpg.html)http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON043_zps48764ed9.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/Stretchwell/media/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON043_zps48764ed9.jpg.html)

[WE992]

I was also there on day 1 at Dharhan. I also remember working almost 24 hours solid as the rest of the Tornado GSE deployed by Alberts slotting in amongst the never ending flow of USAF 141's and C5s.

[smujsmith]

WE992,

Then I suspect we exchanged a nod or two on the day sir. It was certainly a busy time.


Super shots Stretch !!


Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Very impressive pics Stretchwell ... Must have been very reassuring to have the Thunderbolts on your wing :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/THAITOUR2_zpsf37b6926.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/THAITOUR2_zpsf37b6926.jpg.html)

Next in the series of the Thailand 'jolly'. No prizes for identifying these a/c !
Smudge, the black one would make the ultimate motorglider.
As I hoped my 'jolly' tale has sparked other stories. Coff, you could not have guessed what your 'flyer' about the 'K' article would have generated. It is still expanding. Brilliant pics and tales. Ah the Westabouts. Did about half a dozen of various kinds during my 'K' time. Thankfully I was not on Mel Bennett's 'experiment' where they got to Mclellan AFB on day one after a delay out of Fairford.

[ancientaviator62]

WE992,
I remember going into Dharhan and offloading what we thought was a big load. The saw the C-5's arrive and offload half the world !.

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ... I'm genuinely pleased that you guys are enjoying the opportunity to swap pics and share stories ... PPRuNe at it's best IMHO :ok:


Not to mention that a few more Members can now post pictures :)

[chickenlover]

Morning all - todays offering. I must post with a caveat-most of the pics I put up are mine, but some are not-a bunch of us pooled our pictures,especially during the Gulf War and memory has dimmed in some cases. I was talking to Stretchwell last night and it turns out that a picture I have always thought of as his, in fact wasn't. Bottom Line-If I post someone else's pic from the good old days, I'm not stealing credit and I hope they will forgive me :)
First up - Ethiopia food dropping
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img197_zps9c2e3c50.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img197_zps9c2e3c50.jpg.html)

Same drop -different DZ-flew up in a Polish Mi8 to man the DZ radio-slightly perturbed by the 2 pilots quaffing vodka all day-after the days work, we got airborne and did a 'DZ Inspection' during which we equalled the world low flying record-luckily the soft tyres just bounced us gently back into the air and we sheepishly flew back to Addis-in fact they let me fly it back most of the way ! At the time, quite a feat considering this was still 'Cold War' days....
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img194_zpsbe89b958.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img194_zpsbe89b958.jpg.html)

An interesting Det to Gib with a tanker and some Tooms - Just after the Aardvarks from Heyford rearranged Ghaddaffi's tents. There was a perceived threat against Gib so we formed the Air-defence for a while. Twas a standard ' bring a bottle ' war until we got a shout and blasted off to meet a pair of Migs (Mirages ?) racing towards the Rock. There ensued a surreal 20 mins of listening to the Tooms engaging and the exchange with C&C trying to decide whether to splash them or not. All ended harmlessly and back to the Mess for sundowners :)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img341_zps56789491.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img341_zps56789491.jpg.html)

Saying Hi to the lovely Pole-Evans family at Saunders Island.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img080_zps2649a74c.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img080_zps2649a74c.jpg.html)

This was taken about the time BA and PO & crew had their nightmare arrival into ASI in the great storm. Looks so benign in this photo. Be nice if either of those fine aviators could tell their story here to those that haven't heard it. It is one of the top Herc stories.
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img345_zps951c589f.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img345_zps951c589f.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

Wonderful pics Chickenlover ... Thanks for sharing :D:D:D:D

Be nice if either of those fine aviators could tell their story here to those that haven't heard it. It is one of the top Herc stories.

Yes please :)

[ancientaviator62]

Ref the pic of a typical day at ASI. This is what it could be like (and a lot worse) at the other end of the airbridge at MPA.
I had a chat with Bill's ALM back at Lyneham got the story of the ASI storm trip but far better if anyone personally involved could relate the facts.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/FINALSMOUNTPLEASANTFALKLANDS_zpsc7b13051.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/FINALSMOUNTPLEASANTFALKLANDS_zpsc7b13051.jpg.html)

[Madbob]

Chickenlover

Not first hand but here goes........

It was a "routine" Port Stanley to Ascension trip on 4th March 1984. C/s Ascot 8173 captained by Bill A........(one eye permanently u/s), co-pilot A well-known Kiwi then on his first tour on 30 Sqn, plus a junior nav, S******, plus eng and ALM. Down the back were 60 pax :eek::eek::eek:. They being Herc and Phanton crews plus elements of 16 Sqn Raf Regt.

Fuel was 62k lbs. TAF at ASC was 1212 13015 9999 3CYU 018 TEMPO 8000 80RASH 6CU012= i.e. SE wind 15 kts, greater than 10 k viz, 3 oktas at 1,800 feet, temp 8 km in showers 6 oktas at 1,200 ft. i.e. no probs.

Cruise was at FL 230. 200 miles out weather was checked and was as forecast. Fuel at destination was going to be 13,700 lbs. Decent for a tacan to visual was begun. At 75 miles ASC advise WX was deteriorating rapidly....300 ft cloud base and less than a mile viz.:(:(:(

Wind was 6-10 kts and variable, CBs were building to the south west...Tacan to Viz, became tacan to tacan. First approach began at 0915Z with 10,200 lbs and descended to 350 ft QNH and continued to 1.5 NM DME before executing a missed approach.

Tower estimated viz was down to 400m as they overflew SS Uganda. It was also now very turbulent and there was active lightning from the CBs and the wx radar was totally obscured so its was useless as a nav aid. Four more approaches were made all resulting in the same MAPP.

On the 6th approach, started at 1003Z fuel was down to 5,900 lbs. Bill advised the crew that at 5,000 lbs he would transmit a Mayday, order lifejackets on at 4,000 and ditch with 2,000 lbs. The RadAlt was set at 200 ft. Meanwhile Uganda had readied her life boats for launching expecting an imminent ditching.

On the final approach, co-pilot doing the flying, captain PNF, at 1 NM DME the Eng calls lights at 11 o'clock. Captain takes control and weaves left and lands at 1010Z on a flooded runway. The tanks are dipped subsequently revealing 4,700 lbs remained. (The no. 4 tank guage was u/s). Total flight time 2210Z 3MAR to 1010Z 4MAR 12 hours.....

BZ to the crew!

Did not BA get a gong for this? Got to be worth an AFC IMHO. If I've lost anything in the translation my apologies to those involved......

MB

[ancientaviator62]

Madbob,
that chimes with what I can remember the ALM telling me. Perhaps someone who was on ASI at the time can describe the chaos the storm caused and of efforts to get the resident tanker airborne.

[ExAscoteer]

Madbob,

That very much agrees with what I remember 'Obi Wan' telling me.

[DCThumb]

Was DD the Air Eng on that?

[smujsmith]

AA62 #620,

I don't think my gliding experience would have got me anywhere near the pole in that machine, more's the pity, but I suspect it would certainly outperform anything I ever flew. Now, a request by an old GE mate, who follows this thread but is no PPRUNER. Today we had a nice walk, and lunch, and even remembered to bring our wives back after lunch:eek: he was saying how he always remembered the photograph of he thinks, a pink Albert with around 90 degrees of bank on. We couldn't remember if it was from GW1 or a US detachment like Red Flag. Does anyone own/have that photo, and the info on it. I'm sure most have seen the one I mean, so it wouldn't be anything naughty:rolleyes:

Keep them coming gentlemen, a cracking record of a hard working aircraft through its time in RAF colours, all of them.

Smudge

[chickenlover]

Ask and ye shall receive Smuj,:)
Taken on the Nellis ranges at Red Flag
Not my pic but I'm sure the owner and the Captain won't mind.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img426_zpsf42e1d3a.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img426_zpsf42e1d3a.jpg.html)

[smujsmith]

Chickenlover,

You are sir, a scholar and a gentlemen. That's two old GEs happy again.

Smudge:ok:

[chickenlover]

Thumb
DD was indeed the Eng-spoke to him this eve.

[chickenlover]

Tonights offering
(apologies if I repeat myself, my pics are stored in 2 locations )

One of my favourite snaps from Op Bushell-no editing-came out the camera just like this
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img009d_zpse34c7795.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img009d_zpse34c7795.jpg.html)

The pic I thought was Stretchwells-any takers ?
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img365_zps52ce37d9.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img365_zps52ce37d9.jpg.html)

Taken at Dunmail Raise in the Lakes by a dear friend of mine who was probably the forerunner of the huge gaggle who now frequent the LFS recording low flying and posting on the web.
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img411_zps87a8d24e.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img411_zps87a8d24e.jpg.html)

One of the lesser seen nose-art graphics from GW1 - sorry about the crude editing but I'm not comfortable showing faces of those who haven't agreed to it.
She wore a bikini by the time she went in the public gaze.
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img462_zpsb46048f3.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img462_zpsb46048f3.jpg.html)

Thought I was quite good at Fighter Affil till I got my @rse served to me on a plate by this guy - Colonel 'Fack' Acker I believe. Did things with that jet I've never seen before or since.
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img321_zpse7955f75.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img321_zpse7955f75.jpg.html)
XV 206, affectionately known as 'Terry the Tractor' amongst other things.....
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img464_zps46f7f0dd.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img464_zps46f7f0dd.jpg.html)

[Stretchwell]

Kuwait from the north at the end of GW1 - XV179. Twas a long night ! ;-)

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON041_zps84ff0e27.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/Stretchwell/media/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON041_zps84ff0e27.jpg.html)

[Stretchwell]

A little bit of ploughing during GW1 - we lost a few bits from our underside !
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON037_zps8265d98f.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/Stretchwell/media/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON037_zps8265d98f.jpg.html)

[Dengue_Dude]

That'll be the 45* bank limit with flap then . . .

Yeah, yeah I know about barrel rolls, I also know not many pilots do them 'properly'.

Hat, coat . . . exit :=

[herkman]

I recall in 66 the RAF coming down to Australia in a new K model.

Paint job was better than my car.

Watched the ALM pump down the ramp and door but the GTC was running. Showed him how to start the aux pump and hey presto could put the ramp up and down with them two little switches. Much easier when the temp. was around 90 degrees. He showed me his "handbook" which consisted of a page of handwritten notes. Apparently the RAF did not subscribe to the USAF pubs.

Talking to engineer found out he at least had a page and a half of notes.

Then the pilot turned up and indicated no auto pilot. Time I think to take a walk to publications and see a friend. Came back with a complete set books covering, flying, loading and tech services, they stood about four foot tall. Engineer and ALM are all smiles, at least it will give us something to read on the way home. Might even save your life you know says I.

Eventually the bill arrived for the books and my boss says "how are we going to get rid of this." I ring headquarters who agreed the publications could be written off to training.

They were good days the like of which we will never see again.

Every best wishes guys.

Regards

Col

[ancientaviator62]

Latest in the Thailand 'jolly'. You can almost see our co thinking 'I wonder if they would let me borrow it'. Brilliant pics from everyone. It must be a real eye opener to any 'lay' readers of this thread just what the 'K' got up to in all those years in service.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/THAITOUR4_zps46d8dbf0.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/THAITOUR4_zps46d8dbf0.jpg.html)

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/RMAF_0000011A_zps767d8676.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/RMAF_0000011A_zps767d8676.jpg.html)

Found this pic from my collection just to complement chickenlover's very nice pic of ASI. An engine failure after T/O in the always overweight tanker would have been an 'interesting' experience!

[CoffmanStarter]

Gentlemen Pilots and Loadmasters ... A question if I may of genuine interest ...

There are a couple of pics on this thread showing kit being dropped using an extracting chute. I gather this technique was also used low level.

So ... Apart from bog standard Landrovers ... What's the heaviest bit of kit/load that could be dropped in this way ? I assume there will have been significant trim changes as the load started to move and finally exit aft ? So what was aircraft handling like during these type of drops ?

[OmegaV6]

CM .. some info here ..

https://www.facebook.com/JADTEU/app_214309071924895


"The Medium Stressed Platform (MSP) Reefed Mains Extraction parachute system enables us to drop 2x 18000lb loads as low as 550ft from Hercules C Mk1 or C Mk3 aircraft. The Heavy Stressed Platform (HSP) is used to drop engineer equipment up to 30000lb from a minimum drop height of 700ft, and a single platform can be carried in a Hercules C mk1. "

and a google on Hercules HSP drops (HSP = Heavy Stressed Platform) will find even more .. :)

Aussies dropping something a tad large ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTHGHgqQsx0

[Stretchwell]

ULLA (Ultra Low Level Airdrop) was much more fun. From memory up to 14 tons on two platforms extracted whilst flying along at 15 feet with wheels down. Trim change was significant ! Much more fun at night......... ;-)

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON046_zps6684f9dc.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/Stretchwell/media/Herc%20Nostalgia/EPSON046_zps6684f9dc.jpg.html)

[smujsmith]

OK chaps,

As our attention has turned to dropping things from Albert. And we seem to have some very knowledgeable operators contributing, I wonder if anyone can solve this one from my walk with my fellow ex AGE yesterday. He related this story;

It seems, as rumour had it, that an RAF team were taking part in an Air drop exercise in the USA (could it have been Volant Rodeo or similar), they had two participating crews and a reserve, plus the ground support of course. So they had been doing the work up to the day of the big drop competition and all was going well. Meanwhile, out at the main DZ the safety officer, who had seen it all, over the years, had as he always did, parked his station wagon on the centre of the DZ, where never once in his experience had a load landed, despite it being the actual target. On the day both aircraft were readied and the fully loaded MSPs were set up in each aircraft. Unfortunately one of the two main crews pulled out through illness (it's rumoured), leaving the reserve crew to fly the second aircraft in the competition. We all know what's coming, the reserve crew achieved maximum points by hitting the turning points on time, and putting their MSP smack bang in the middle of the DZ. It made a mess of the DZ Officers nice car, apparently.

So, my questions for today are, did it happen ? And is my fellow ex GE correct that there was a photograph around of the said vehicle with its newly added MSP? And once again, if there is a photograph, any chance of posting it ? Perhaps if anyone who was on that det remembers the incident he could explain it better than I have, you have to excuse me, these are the ravings of a couple of old blokes, after a pint or two. Cheers in advance to anyone who can help out. Judging by the breadth of coverage through the years, someone will know.

Smudge:ok:

[Stretchwell]

Yes it happened - there used to be a photo on the wall in the old STS building south side at Lyneham. :D

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks chaps for the explanations :ok:

Trim change was significant !

I bet it was ... and at low level in the dark :eek:

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ... Nice pic of the NAR OV-10 Bronco :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Smudge, Stretchwell ... We simply must find that pic mentioned @ #645 :D

[OmegaV6]

Smudge, I believe that there was also a section of windscreen complete with wiper blade from the unfortunate vehicle that was mounted as a "trophy" in STS

[smujsmith]

Omega V6,

Thanks for that. I suspect the windscreen and the picture in STS is what my old comrade had in mind. So likely if we have any contributors who worked for STS, they could embellish us a little more. I can't find a thing on the interweb about it.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
As an ALM I did tours as an instructor, trials and development and as an examiner as well as a 'gash shag' on a squadron. I think I have dropped most things from the 'K' during my time. I was saving some pics for the right part in my tale but as this has cropped up now I will contribute but the pics will come later. The heaviest single item I have dropped was a grader which weighed 35000 lbs all up on the HSP (Heavy Stressed Platform) platform. The heaviest load I have dropped on a single run was 42000 lbs. This was 3 ULLA (Ultra Low Level= 10 ft ish) platforms each weighing 14000 lbs. Because of the extreme trim changes as the load departed it was not uncommon for the main u/c to kiss the DZ. I could bore for Britain on airdrop as I specialised in it and loved it. I may do so when we get to the pic sequence ! Unless whilst we are in airdrop mode you would prefer me to continue with the pics/tales.
As for the tale of the airdrop hitting the comms truck on the DZ, it is true. The USAF DZ party left their vehicle on the impact point. No one ever hits that do they ? Besides the USAF were dropping from 1200 ft whist we dropped reefed mains MSP from 600ft. One swing and it is on the ground. It hit and crushed the vehicle as it landed as intended. The USAF were more concerned about the comms Kit than about the vehicle !
I was on that Volant Rodeo detachment as an umpire, my second VR in that role. Pics and tales will arrive in their turn, but here is one for now. This is one of our MSP drops on that VR but not the one of which we speak.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/MSPDROPAIRLIFTRODEO_zpsdcaf26ac.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/MSPDROPAIRLIFTRODEO_zpsdcaf26ac.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks all ... a really fascinating topic :ok:

AA62 ... looking forward to your further pics :)

Stretchwell ... your pic @ #643 appears to have disappeared ?

[Stretchwell]

Pic @ 643 is back ! Finger trouble.......

The Volant Rodeo nav for the MSP on Jeep was DM !

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0003_zps6223866f.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0003_zps6223866f.jpg.html)

OK, Coff although it is well out of sequence of my tales we will continue the Volant Rodeo theme. This is me on my second VR with my 'minder', a super bloke with a great sense of humour. My first VR was as an umpire the year the RAF decided they could not afford to send a full team for the competition. In order not to lose touch they sent a couple of us as umpires. We went out civvy and came home 'Hercair'. As I was an 'orficer' the USAF assumed I was a pilot and initially scheduled me to do the Flt Deck umpiring. Not really a problem because all you had to do was log all the relevant times etc IAW a 'crib' sheet. It was very interesting flying with foreign airforces on C130, C160 and the 141.
A team at the DZ/LZ scored the touchdown and drop accuracy.
My second VR I just did 'down the back' umpiring. I also did the annual airdrop check on one of our ALMs, on one of the practice MSPs before the competition proper, who was participating in the competition. Pics to follow.
There was some concern by the USAF at our dropping from such a low height, but we convinced them that was our SOP.
There are two basic airdrop philosophies. You either use unstressed platforms and drop specially developed vehicles to withstand the forces involved (USAF and others) or you use a stressed platform and drop suitably prepared normal vehicles (UK system). So in theory we could take your car, prep it for airdrop and send it on its way with a good chance it will survive intact when it and the DZ meet. You pay your money and take your choice.
I had better stop here ! Any questions at the back for those still awake ?

[dragartist]

Mr Coffman,
I am not sure if any vehicles were ever dropped using ULLA from our Ks.
I know the US did use the system they called LAPES to drop graders. some interesting film on youtube including some terrifying crashes and what they called mishaps.


HSP started life on the Beverley. AA62 would have been amongst the few who dropped HSP from the K. In my time since mid 90s it was dropped on Purple Star and once at Cerney or Kevil (memory fades) with the CVRT. I hope the last remaining platform made its way to the Airborne museum at Duxford safely.


I am pretty sure that there is some amazing video of ULLA, MSP and other things at JATE.

[CoffmanStarter]

Hi Drag old chap ... I thought our resident PPRuNe Drop Engineer Specialist would pitch up at some point on this topic :ok:

AA62 ... Trying to be objective ... It seems far more sensible (and economic) to use a Stressed Platform to drop standard mil vehicles when required, rather than "over spec" the entire vehicle fleet on the chance that "some" might need to be Air Dropped at some future point. I'd also guess that it's more cost effective to keep a Stressed Platform serviceable ready for use than it is to keep individual vehicles in a fleet at a similar state of readiness ?

[ancientaviator62]

I am sure dragartist is correct. I know of no clearance for the dropping of vehicles via ULLA. That the USAF were able to do so with their similar system, LAPES was because of the specialist nature of the vehicles used as I mentioned earlier. I only ever dropped combat stores. That is ammo, rations, pol and the like and the APFC. I remember being told that our vehicles would not withstand the forces involved.
As regards the HSP when Op Corporate was brewing up I was asked by someone 'futher up the line' what I could recall about the HSP which had to all intents and purposes been withdrawn from service. I told him what I could remember and heard nothing more. It seems the 'cunning plan' was to drop a grader on South Georgia to make a tac strip for the Herc! Anyone who has ever been there or read Ernest Shackleton's book will be astounded that this was ever considered.
It is a measure of the desperation that the whole 'mission impossible' Falklands op generated. It was not the only 'interesting' proposal to come down the line !

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
the problem with an expensive stressed platform is that once dropped you have to effectively assume that it will not be available for follow up ops, as no way of recovering makes sense. So you could afford to write off cheap unstressed platforms, of which no doubt you have many more for the same money. I take no sides as each has merits and drawbacks. As I said 'you pays your money' !

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62, Drag ... Understood ... Especially your point @ #658 :ok:

Fascinating topic though ... ;)

[chickenlover]

Not trying to 'two sh!ts ' you Stretchwell, but it could be 3 linked loads. I've tried to erase NVG ULLA from my memory for mental health reasons :) I'm fairly certain we dropped 3 lots of 'Blivets' together for the release to service trial. I'll try and dig in the video box-I have film of 3 of us doing the trials. As I remember, 15 ft was the maximum-any higher and the front lip digs in, demonstrated in one of the trials videos. 8- 10 ft was ideal, 5 ft and below got you cuffed by the Eng and you earned the ignominy of a 'touchdown'. I think we got a bit over zealous with the trials and used some iffy DZs-Hullavington was particularly scary-I often wondered what late night drivers made of a blacked out Herc coming over the road at 10 ft.....

I remember being genuinely relieved when I dropped my last NVG Ulla load.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/ULLAExtraction03A_zps361e1f4a.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/ULLAExtraction03A_zps361e1f4a.jpg.html)

[smujsmith]

Chickenlover,

Apart from the height requirement, there must have been an airspeed element to this sort of drop. Could you give us any idea as to what sort of speeds this was done at, and particularly how close to stall speed it was. I managed to see a couple of these loads go, but from inside the freight bay, you had no idea of what was happening outside. I'm sure drop speed must have been close to stall, but as an ex AGE I'm no authority. Smashing picture again.

Smudge:ok:

[Stretchwell]

I've a video of a day ULLA drop at Keevil of fuel cells. Load prepared and dropped level at about 12 feet but the load nosed in and disintegrated in front of an audience of VIPs. Turned out the c of g calculations were done for Jet A-1 but with the dummy load being water it made them wildly inaccurate. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it........ :ok:

From recollection I think 130 knots but it's a while ago ! That's way above stalling speed before release and even further above stalling speed once the 15 tons has vacated the freight bay !

[smujsmith]

Thanks for that Stretchwell, it looks like there was a good margin of safety there with respect to stalling speed. Perhaps whoever calculated the release of that particular load needed a course in wine or beer making, they may have understood specific gravity then:rolleyes:

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Gents ... If you need any encouragement from me, as the starter of this thread ... please do continue with your pics and tails of Air Dropping from Albert ... it truly is fascinating stuff :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Chickenlover,
yes it could indeed be three linked loads as my log book testifies. As I mentioned in a previous thread 'kissing the DZ ' was not that unusual when dropping the three. We used to drop ULLA at South Cerney, not exactly the largest DZ. To do this we needed to stop the traffic on the road. Initially the police were very resistant to this idea. Then we took the Traffic Super with us on a drop. Like anyone else who sees ULLA or any heavy drop for the first time when we landed his eyes were the size of dinner plates and he was temporarily bereft of speech. No problems with stopping the traffic after that. But dropping at South Cerney in the winter could be interesting as the load skidded across the frozen grass and take ages to stop.
I was the ALM on the famous high level ULLA drop on Knighton Down on the plain. When dropping ULLA we used to stream a drogue on the descent into the DZ. The captain did the flying, the co the power and the eng did the switching for the drop. The drogue then used to pull the main parachutes (modified Vulcan brake chutes) of the ramp and load was extracted at high speed. On this drop the drogue was streamed and almost immediately the load (triple ULLA) went walkabout. I called 'load moving' to an incredulous captain but he could already feel the trim changes. As the load went I scampered to the ramp in time to see a large plume of spray rise vertically in the air as our load of jerry cans of water disintegrated. Lovely sight !
We did high level para that same day in the afternoon and you could easily see the scar on Knighton Down.
So what went wrong ? Initial suspicions were directed at the Eng as he did the switching for the drop. He was very experienced and adamant that he had not touched anything. The cause was soon found. When the drogue is streamed a device between it and the main parachutes only operates when the eng does his switchery bit. Then the drogue pulls the main chute off the ramp and the load exits. In this case the 'Y' shaped connecting yoke had had snapped allowing the drogue to operate on the main chutes irrespective of any switching. We later found out that it (and others) had been incorrectly manufactured, something that could not be detected when it entered the supply chain.
ULLA was never used by the standard 'K' squadrons although that had been the original intention, as the flying hours needed for training could not be funded. However all the a/c were modded as if ULLA was to be in universal use.

[ancientaviator62]

Stretchwell,
I take it your 'fuel cell' drop was of the APFC (air portable fuel container). We used to drop them also filled with water and I do not remember any problems. But !

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/BLACKANDWHITEMSPALMVIEW_zpsef460ef1.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/BLACKANDWHITEMSPALMVIEW_zpsef460ef1.jpg.html)

Airdrop pic of the day. High frame MSP with almost a full war load at the point of exit. Full war load and you could not see the vehicles for the 'wall' of stores. We could drop two of these from the 'K'. A maximum of 18000 lbs each although there were one or two overload clearances. In the high point of airdrop we could drop vehicles, bridging equipment and all manner of things.
You can clearly see the anti swing chute on the at the front of the load. Note how close the MSP is to the cargo door ! The twin bomb racks which held the extractor chute can also be seen. Very tricky to load these high loads especially when the RAF Condecs (transfer loader) became old and difficult for even the best Condec operator to finesse accurately.
If anyone is interested I can dig into my memory bank and relate the sequence of events of one of these drops.

[Stretchwell]

Hi AA62. Agreed ! Water was always used on dummy drops when no fuel needed by the end user...... That's fine as long as the calculations are based on water. I'm no weight and balance expert but that was the explanation given and I was happy to accept ! ;-) I got JATE to look at the video and the drop profile was deemed fine....... I will try and find that video.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

That looks seriously close to the cargo door. Did any ever hit as they tilted off the back? I bet the pucker factor was high as it started moving.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge.
Whilst I was at JATE, I was the ALM on the drop where the MSP (high frame) clipped the 'ducksbill' as it left the a/c. What happened was that the wire transfer release cable was about 6 ft too short so causing the platform to rotate before it was clear of the a/c ! (if anyone is interested I will explain) We were experimenting with these wire cables wrapped in a plastic sheath as we had instances of them cutting into the parachute risers. The plastic should cut down on the whip effect and also blunt the wire cable. As usual with trials some bits were made in house. This cable was made in the JATE workshops by a civilian who for reasons never explained made it too short although marked as correct. His union told him not to testify at the Inquiry so he did not. Not the first nor the last time that this situation has occurred in other parts of the RAF ! All the other cables he made were correct. If the cable had been much shorter you would not be reading this.
The Inquiry found that this was the cause of the incident and sent the report 'up the line'. It bounced back with what was a virtual demand to find some service personnel culpable. The President of the Inquiry sent it back exactly as before effectively challenging the system to reconvene the board from scratch. It backed down and accepted the findings.

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
One particular 'problem child' was the RIB (rigid inflatable boat) as used by the SBS and others. It seemed that every drop would produce a new incident. Perhaps we have someone around who could recount the tale of the Maggie Maldrop' !

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/RIBMALDROP_zps2c560b27.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/RIBMALDROP_zps2c560b27.jpg.html)

This is the RIB as I always seem to remember it ! It should of course be descending gently in the horizontal plane not performing 'Stuka arrival one !

[bunta130]

For airdrop minimum speeds, it was usually the greater of 125 kts IAS or 1.25 Vstall for cargo. ULLA and freedrop (15 (Ethiopia) -50 feet (routine)) was done with gear down...saved the day in Ethiopia on a couple of occasions with inadvertant touchdowns on uneven DZs - Rabel from memory.

The touchdown relay prevented timely ULLA extraction on at least one occasion. The spotters who remember BANGGEARO will remember why...(think it was 2 Gs...GTC door and Gnd Stop switch made live....)

For para, it was 115kts-130kts, limited by 1.2 Vstall and of course the parachute RTSs

The incident with the flattened Jeep was fairly well-documented...and the pic/piece of windscreen placed just to the left of the bar in STF. I believe the nav was a rather bouffant Dougie M***sh, who (I think) , coincidentally was also involved with the Maggie/grey funnel line incident on the South Coast.

The skipper of that one was, again dragged from memory, Henry P***le, who went on to fly Wessex in a 'spirited manner'....

Served on STF (FKA STS) for a while......best time I had in the Mob - great bunch of blokes and hugely satifying flying.

AA62's incident with the high frame MSP reminds me of the 47 crew who forgot to confirm the 15 ft extension to the transfer release cable was in place prior to a drop from a Mk3 (same basic cable for the Mk1 and 3, but clearly the extra length needed for the stretched version)....Slug was the skipper (I'll leave the Loadie's name off to spare his blushes) from memory..... Similar ducksbill interface issue....

I was following directly behind.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

Yep, well remember the RIB, although, only as freight. I never saw one go "out the back", and that one in your picture probably wouldn't survive to do so again either.

Bunta130,

Lots of info to think about there, thanks for that. I never did Ethiopia, so missed all the fun you seem to have had dropping there.

Smudge:ok:

[chickenlover]

Somebody please sign DM up to this site if he isn't already -He's in most of the good ascoteering stories ( and the Maggie/Grey Funnel Line one is one of the best)
Saw him the other day, still flying Hercs and still making stories :)
Bunta, did we go to Biggin Hill together ? :)

[ancientaviator62]

Bunta130,
ref the 15 ft txfer release extension trip. If we are talking the same trip I was the President of the inquiry for that one ! We had been banging on for years to have a cable of the correct length made for the 'stretch' as it was an incident waiting to happen. Even after the Inquiry and our recommendations nothing was done. These SIs at least in my time were only about allocating blame and not about rectifying issues like this. Also the 'system' could not distinguish between an honest mistake made trying to get the job done and negligence per se. The definition of negligence always tied the Inquiry's hands.

[Stretchwell]

I have e-mailed DM..........

[bunta130]

AA62

Pretty sure that was the one....must have been around 1988/89. I've PM'd you to 'out' the loadie...

Chickenlover

Maybe.....are you MB?

Cheers

You will note that it takes something special to make me post.....34 times in 12 years so far. This thread is absolutely great.....much better than the usual whinging tripe.......

[Mal Drop]

I remember this as one of the more interesting loads we carried in the 'Cave of Wonders' aft of FS245. Would have made for one heck of a narrowboat holiday on the Kennet and Avon canal.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/photoboris/LRIC2FPNL.jpg

[gopher01]

We lost Henry P****e for three days , beard and all, when we took a power plant out to El Centro for JATE who had broken their frame. They borrowed ours while their engine change was carried out and booked us into the nearest accommodation in a westerly direction, San Diego. On arrival at the Best Western Henry went up to his room, changed into civvies, said see you in three days time and disappeared out and we believe over the border to Mexico. Three days later crew assemble for departure to be greeted by Henry raring to go in the foyer.
That was the same trip we found a bar in San Diego, The Winston Churchill, with Red Barrell on draught, that shows you how long ago that was, run by a Malt who thought the RAF was the bees knees, he had lived just outside Luqa, and it didn't cost a dollar all night, a very nice man.

[smujsmith]

Mal Drop,

Serious tackle that boat mate, I know at least one ex B line FS I/C GEs who would have loved to have given it a drive on the Kennett and Avon.

Gopher,

I bet the red Barrel was good, but did your landlord offer Cisk or Hop Leaf as alternates ? Sounds like a good trip to me though.

Smudge:ok:

[gopher01]

I have tucked away somewhere video taken by BBC Bristol and Central South from flights through the smoke on the way into K.C. during GW1. I managed to appear in both but as I wasn't in the UK when they were transmitted still being in Bahrain, both companies very kindly put their programme onto the same tape for me when I got home. The BBC programme was quite interesting as the presenter wanted some footage of him on the ramp, ramp open, as we transited the smoke on the way to K.C. so the captain obliged with everybody duly harnessed up. We started with the presenter about three feet from the ramp edge and the cameraman at the hinge line but the cameraman couldn't see the presenter through the smoke coming back in over the ramp, in the end he was about eight feet from the guy before he could get him on camera. The presenter complained about this until we reminded him that the guys up front were flying the aircraft with this visibility at which he went very quiet!
At the time we were doing this little job we had four Hercs in the smoke all making very sure that they were telling everybody else what height they were at and what their heading was, apart from Snoopy who was stooging around on top sampling whatever it was they sampled.
The most worrying bit though was being the first aircraft into Ali Al Salem and being told not to go off the runway as they hadn't checked anywhere else for mines and flying over the HASs, very similar to the ones I had hidden in in Germany and seeing them blown open by the latest munitions, made you wonder why we bothered with them!

[500N]

What type of boat is it and who owned it ?

Is it Navy ?

[WE992]

The boat was owned by a little outfit on the coast near Poole. I'm sure Google will tell you the name.

I had the 'pleasure' of loading it once and numerous similar ones on may occasions.

[Wander00]

So what is it called - never seen anything like that before

[500N]

Reminds me of a US Navy SEAL Boat or a rescue boat, can't seem to find what I am looking for.

[smujsmith]

500N,

Try this link. SBS Boats - VSV (http://www.specialboatservice.co.uk/vsv.php)

Or this

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/vsv.htm

Wander00,

VSV = Very Slender Vessel

Smudge:ok:

[Wander00]

Smuj - wish I was (very slender), but thanks all. Now better informed

[dragartist]

Interesting to see the Aus airdrop video of their dozer. Their platform looks nothing like an MSP or HSP!


I don't want to take issue with AA62 but I think his boat airdrop snap is a Medium Inflatable Boat . Not a Rigid Inflatable. In the early days these were dropped on boards and hit the sea with a slap. - Huge g forces that would break things. It took a good while for us to solve this problem. The chutes are ADUX. supposed to be one shot, single use. We used them all up in various HUMAID ops.


AA62 tails of TROC extension cables ring true. I tried to have two separate lengths and have them colour coded to prevent such a murphy. We did this for static line extensions for SC15. People just don't understand the safety issues. Towards the end of my time I became very concerned about MSP. It was not dropped often enough to maintain currency. Almost every other drop was a maldrop of some sorts. Including one that really alarmed me when the para tray clouted the door. It was not noted for a number of days. Corporate knowledge had faded so much in the end. The good thing was that every drop was filmed. I am surprised not more has finished up on Youtube.

[WE992]

Whilst on the subject of things that go on water I once loaded a hovercraft at Diego Garcia on a Mk1. It touched both sides at the wheel well, the seat stations stowed at 245 and overhung the ramp.

The real issue was we had 19 POB (all crew of one sort or another) and we could not get any seats down in the back. I was thank full for my hammock tied between the yellow posts.

[Stretchwell]

As requested the photos of the MSP drop at Volant Rodeo - courtesy of DM !

First photo of the DZSO's wagon on the bullseye of the drop zone.http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/AirliftRodeoDZ1_zpsd477a19e.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/Stretchwell/media/AirliftRodeoDZ1_zpsd477a19e.jpg.html)

Secondly the load in flight.http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/LoadRelease1_zpsc2e067d4.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/Stretchwell/media/LoadRelease1_zpsc2e067d4.jpg.html)

Thirdly the result of an accurate drop ! http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/Stretchwell/MSPcrushesDZSOsJeep1_zpsb5388c52.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/Stretchwell/media/MSPcrushesDZSOsJeep1_zpsb5388c52.jpg.html)

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[chickenlover]

Tonights Offering - I believe Stretchwell will be along at some point with a pic from DM.
The pink scheme was reasonably effective.
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img009_zpsf4ff551b.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img009_zpsf4ff551b.jpg.html)

Sorry, I just love dogs chasing aeroplanes :)
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img074_zpsb93cca89.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img074_zpsb93cca89.jpg.html)

More Red Flag shenanigans
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img320_zpse11b2e90.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img320_zpse11b2e90.jpg.html)
Playing with the 7th SOS in southern Germany
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img322_zps6677e92a.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img322_zps6677e92a.jpg.html)
We thought we were pretty clever, hand painting our own aircraft until the Gents from 7 rolled out this much more gnarly version..... done with cargo/cam net masking and spray cans.
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img469_zps21e0c360.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img469_zps21e0c360.jpg.html)

I hope the faces are just about blurry enough to protect the innocent in this-nice use of kamikaze headbands though :)
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img330_zpsd1198330.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img330_zpsd1198330.jpg.html)

This one was taken by the lovely Mr IB
I hope he won't mind me posting it here.
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img404_zps3232deb2.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img404_zps3232deb2.jpg.html)
Thats it for now til I fire up the scanner.

[smujsmith]

WE992,

Of course, the hammock in its "classic" position. Now, picture the scene. I'm the AGE on an ASI LOX trip. A rather large LOX container is in the cargo bay, accompanied by a LOX safety man, whose sole purpose is to monitor vessel pressures and advise of any faults, mounted on a platform, on roller conveyor. Our Captain, C**** O'*****, briefs us on the plan. Basically, if the safety man tells me its about to blow, I will open the ramp and door and dump it in the oggin. So off we go.first leg Lyneham to Banjul, no probs, and I had a good trip operating my hammock, tied between the yellow poles. Putting Albert to bed was standard and the refuel was accomplished without incident (this matters).

Next day we completed the trip to ASI, and landed just after the weekly Timmy. Taxied in and the VASF lads were very helpful. We were informed that we had to wait around an hour and a half to remove our LOX pot, because the Tristar had priority on the movers. Not a problem I thought, and duly refuelled Albert for our northerly departure the next day. And, by the time we had it put to bed, the local movers turned up, unloaded the LOX pot and myself and the safety man headed toward the accommodation and a welcome beer.

Imagine my surprise at breakfast in the mess the following morning when the Flt Sgt Muppet in residence introduced himself with "you're in the crap now matey boy", with respect to his rank I replied that he could call me Smudge if he liked, and asked what I had done wrong. Well, he said, I've had OC muppetry ASI send a signal off to FATCOCK reporting you for refuelling your aircraft with a LOX container on board. I doubt you will even be allowed to be the GE for the return trip today. Well, I thanked him for his astute recognition that I had indeed refuelled my Albert, whilst the LOX container was aboard, but pointed out that I had done the same thing at Banjul, en route to ASI, and that it was authorised by signal from the said FATCOCK. Halfway through his full English, spitting sausage he went apoplectic, and continued to insist that C130s were not allowed to be refuelled whilst LOX was aboard. I further explained that in normal operation Albert carried its own LOX pot, that was never routinely drained to allow fuel to be loaded on board. He left half of his breakfast and stormed out. I never heard a word about it again. And now for the hammock. On the way back north, I enjoyed a 30 minute chat down the back with our skipper, who made the point to me that strung up where I had it, had he needed to jettison the southbound load, I would have gone with it. Now there was something worth listening to. As a result, and whenever possible after that I rigged a stretcher, aft of the MLG and enjoyed luxury travel. Far be it from me to come between a pilot and his jettison. Anyway, despite the fact that I absolutely admit total inferiority in knowledge of Albert, what did the two yellow stanchions mean, no doubt a question for the Loadies among us.

Smudge:ok:

PS, Chickenlover. In 30 years of service as groundcrew, I only really loved two aircraft. Your photograph of Albert and the Lightning (surely an F6) has just encapsulated my whole service career. Thanks very much.

[chickenlover]

Smuj
You're very welcome-that day out was right up there as a highlight of my service career - I'm breaking rule one of forum muppettry by posting whilst tipsy , so tomorrow I'll put up some more Lightnings and Herc pics :)

[ancientaviator62]

Bunta,
I have replied to your PM.

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
ref my boat pic you are most certainly right ! I did not annotate my pics (who would ever be interested ?) so fallible memory strikes again. In my defence m'lord it is a typical RIB drop ! But where is my pic of the RIB ?
Do they still drop the MSP now ?.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/MSPDROPFROMALMVIEW2_zpsb14e1186.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/MSPDROPFROMALMVIEW2_zpsb14e1186.jpg.html)

Still with the MSP. this is on the same VR detachment and could easily be the famous bulls eye referred to. You can just see that the platform is starting to rotate. In the pic showing the load on the vehicle you can clearly see the DZ marker panels very close to the incident.

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
did no one wonder how you had got to ASI in the first place without refuelling?. As regards jettisioning the LOX tank , as I mentioned in a previous post we used to carry it rigged for airdrop. When that requirement was dispensed with I was never convinced we could have got rid of it in an emergency without it striking the cargo door as it tipped over the ramp. However when needs must !

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/NIGHTGEMINIDROP_zps13d27b11.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/NIGHTGEMINIDROP_zps13d27b11.jpg.html)

A real blast from the past. Taken I think when we were at Fairford. Unlike the RIB this usually did 'what it says on the tin'. I had huge admiration for the SBS paras who used to follow this out at night.

[CoffmanStarter]

Good morning Gentlemen ...

This thread simply gets better by the day ... thank you all for making so :D

Hopefully it won't be too long before the "Maggie/Grey Funnel Line" incident appears ... the title is certainly intriguing :}

[chickenlover]

Sorry to the rest of you but since Smuj shares my love of these 2 beasts.....
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/Copyofimg256.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/Copyofimg256.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/Copyofimg276.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/Copyofimg276.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img182.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img182.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/Copyofimg274.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/Copyofimg274.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/Copyofimg254.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/Copyofimg254.jpg.html)

[chickenlover]

A day in the park
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img489_zps2e171fff.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img489_zps2e171fff.jpg.html)
Different kind of strip
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img497_zps1532a8ee.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img497_zps1532a8ee.jpg.html)
Abex on Salisbury plain
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img261_zps2ec97921.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img261_zps2ec97921.jpg.html)

Summer in Stanley

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img075_zps47255e54.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img075_zps47255e54.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img057_zps9dd2d792.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img057_zps9dd2d792.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img058_zpsbb7bd07f.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img058_zpsbb7bd07f.jpg.html)

Low level off the coast of Greenland
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img243.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img243.jpg.html)

Loose gaggle of A-10s and Hercs over Baltimore city centre
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img487_zpsda06e42c.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img487_zpsda06e42c.jpg.html)
Thats all for now folks - have a good weekend

[ancientaviator62]

chickenlover,
I worked on Lightnings (92) and flew in the 'K' for nearly 30 years so I share in smudge's admiration for your superb pics. I do not think smudge would have enjoyed working on the 'Vimtin' ! It was a trial for all the tech trades.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

I started on the C130 out of Halton in 71 at Colerne, progressed to Lightning F6 of 56 Squadron in Cyprus and gradually worked my way back to Albert. Both aircraft played major parts in my career so to see them together is great. Having done at least one trip with Chickenlover I believe, I would have bribed a lot of people to be on the aircraft on the day he got those shots. Thanks again Chickenlover.

Smudge:ok:

[goudie]

Apart from a trip in one, to Norway to recover a Brit, I was never involved with Alberts, (mostly Bombers and Brits for me). However I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. I must say you're certainly an intrepid bunch of guys. I did have a good friend, Steve Powell, who was an Air Eng on them in the '80's. Sadly he's no longer with us but he had a few tales to tell.

[smujsmith]

goudie,

Stay with it sir, I believe the best is yet to come. During its time in service the C130K was in to everything that happened. Intrepid might be a bit strong a word, but the crews I had the honour to support were all game to do the best they could, in the true tradition of the service. An amazing aircraft, some top quality crews all made for the fantastic history we are seeing brought to life on this thread. I was fortunate, as were others, to become an AGE and spend more than 6 years in their company, mainly operating my hammock, and experiencing some great people, great flying and unique locations. This thread is a fitting tribute to all of that. I'm sure all welcome your input.

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Very well said Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
thanks for the clarification ref working on the Lightning. No doubt you will agree with my assertion that terrific a/c that it was it was hard work for the groundcrew.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/MSPDROPFROMALMVIEW_zps155d2518.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/MSPDROPFROMALMVIEW_zps155d2518.jpg.html)

This pic is another part of the drop sequence as shown in my last one of the MSP on VR. The platform is well into rotation mode as you can clearly see the underside.

[dragartist]

Re#695, AA62, I am not sure if dropping small inflatables on PUB, the platform we did at JATE for SUMO (can't recall what we called it) and latterly the Babcock SBMP was more unreliable than PRIBAD and PURIBAD. I think the Babcock platform was good and solved many of the water impact problems. I don't recall ever having one tent peg.


We did have lots of issues with PURIBAD over the years. I attribute most of this to loss of skills due to not dropping it often enough in training. It was quirky in some respects. just as you solved one problem another popped up and bit you on the bum. I hope those in the know will have done the cross fertilisation to the Cunningham bang seat issue.


Re your MSP. You will recall how many were dropped each week in the Cold war days. I know my knowledge is no longer up to date but in my last year we often went months without dropping a single one. I know we never had it (or anything like it) on the J in my day. I would be interested to know when the last one was dropped.


back in 1998/9 the US dropped a type V using our 66fts RME with EPERU from a civilian 130 (Natick kind of stood by as observers).


In around 2003/4 we did do a one off drop of the 108" MSP from a K as a kind of prep for the J. I think I would have held up the red card if anyone was serious about dropping with RME from the J. MSP with EPERU and the TROC you spoke of was scary enough.


Lots of myths in this business. The heights and masses spoke of in earlier posts included. Could never have done the max weights from so low. The 2 parachute loads perhaps.


Looking forward to A400M. I love their version of ULLA from the publicity material they put out. Any takers? I note they have to put the wheels down when dropping from 1000Ft. Is that just in case the ground comes up!

[CoffmanStarter]

A layperson question if I may ...

Was there any operational need for RAF Albert to drop part assembled Bridging Sections for the Royal Engineers ... if so what were the challenges in doing so ?

[dragartist]

yes Coff we had schemes for dropping The Air Portable Ferry Bridge on several MSPs. I saw them rigged and some elements dropped during the trials at JATE. I don't recall 47 ever dropping one in training. They mainly used cast vehicles or ballast loads of rubber blocks or tins of gravel.


As AA62 will have previously noted the mix of loads on any aircraft was complex. I think to drop one Bridge would have taken half the available fleet at a time when other things may have been going on. Dropping tons of 105 using AGE to the gun line would probably have been more of a priority. Rigging AGE was a pain. This is one area where the J would have been superior.

[Trumpet_trousers]

My logbook notes an HSP drop onto Larkhill DZ on 11 Oct 1996. C130 C1 XV178.
I wonder if any HSPs were dropped after this date? The load was a Scimitar/Scorpion AFV

[dragartist]

I guess that was the second to last TT or maybe even the last of the last. It would have been the diesel engine CVRT. We readied for a drop with the new Side frames in early 2000s but found that the was no allowance for wash away. (the frames would have twatted the ducks bill or the door) only to find that the same was true with the old steel Load protection frame. The design team could not do complex compound angle geometry. How you got away with it I don't know. I recall difficulties getting all of the Role equipment together and robbing the stores of prototype kit from BD (TRAMs Etc). Not sure if all the Steel Wire Ropes we had were in date and could not find the drawings or someone with the approvals to make new ones. I think it was canned before the drop took place. (may just have been a blessing). Stores had moved from Bicester to Stafford with so much going in the skip under the damn RAB initiative.
This backs up AA62 recollection of South Georgia. VX275 may have a better recollection than mine. Capt MB REME was the project officer. Nuff said.
The prototype HSP side frames served their secondary purpose well in rolling MSPs to determine CoG for many years before the CO insisted in a tidy up for some AOCs inspection. No one knew the true value of these odd bits of metal.

[Hempy]

http://youtu.be/kexx2QlUa3c

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Drag for your explanation @ #711 above :ok:

It's truly amazing what can be delivered out the back of RAF Albert :ok:

APFB (http://www.wfel.com/downloads/wfel-apfb-brochure.pdf)

[smujsmith]

AA62 #707,

Totally agree sir, a nightmare for Groundcrew, but the hard work was always rewarded by those spectacular take offs etc. of course, Albert was no slouch when getting airborne. I well remember the post Base 3 Airtests from Colerne in the early 70s, when a Tactical take of was the norm rather than the exception, and empty, it really went up. I believe Flight Idle has a story on that (if she's still around)!!

As for all the dropping information, I'm "wowed" as they say. As an AGE it was rare to be aboard for such drops, I think I only ever witnessed one MSP drop in my time. That's probably because they were local trips. I also missed some of the bigger relief efforts, where dropping was the order of the day. In my time, a Khe San in to Sarajevo was very much the preferred method of delivery. Along with the NVG/SCINS insertion of SF, or the alternate HALO. But it's all fascinating stuff, and has to make us aware of what a capable aircraft the C130 is. Keep it going chaps, I know there's more out there.

Finally, I'm reading a book on the kindle at the moment, The Scramble Bell by David Coulter. Starts with 48 Squadron at Changi, and an amorous encounter. It contains one of the best descriptions I've ever read of the Alpha and Beta range operation of the T56/Hamilton Standard power package. I'm only around halfway through, and still trying to work out if the chap is ex RAF or what. Perhaps some wiser heads than me know of it.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HERCMSPREEFEDMAINS_zpsa25185d0.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HERCMSPREEFEDMAINS_zpsa25185d0.jpg.html)

This pic (my copy of a JATE original I think) is to complement the last pic I posted which showed the MSP well into the rotation phase of the drop. This is an outside view of that inside view. Here you can see the anti swing parachute partially deployed and about to perform as intended. Once had a Maldrop when the anti swing chute failed to perform. Initially the finger of suspicion was pointed at myself and the army checker. However it soon became apparent that the mouth closure ties on the anti swing had been doubled up and it would never have opened in a month of mondays ! Turned out the lady parachute packer was having boy friend troubles and her mind was not exactly focused on the packing. They had to inspect every chute she had been near. Not a popular lass.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0004_zpsba25028b.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0004_zpsba25028b.jpg.html)

Just to continue the Volant Rodeo story, and a reminder that without 'menders' like these we would not have any tales to recount. This is the detachment line up for the drive by of the general. As well as the flying part of the competition there was also a maintenance element. A team inspected every a/c deducting points for all manner of things. On the day of the inspection I had 'umpired' on a C160 (but that is another story) so volunteered to help clean up our 'K'. Due to my technical background I was allocated the task of digging the crud out of the tie down receptacles, which I did with my survival knife !. It was very hot in there and I cursed the unknown person who had elected to change the US type cargo floor to match our system!

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
agree your comments ref dropping AGE (no smudge we were not disposing of you chaps). It stands for Auto Gravity Extraction. I always regarded a successful drop here as an act of God, especially spilt stick. An extractor parachute allowed the aft restraint barrier to open and as the a/c climbed (gently !) the load rolled out. Not unusual for the captain to level out part way through the sequence as he compensated for the trim change. This could result in the load stopping or even move back up the cargo compartment which could make life interesting.

[Mal Drop]

Once had a Maldrop...

I was young and needed the money.

[chickenlover]

Following on from the 'Interesting places ' theme;
On finals into Quito to visit the Ex-Staish,JB.
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img459_zps8d64c0db.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img459_zps8d64c0db.jpg.html)

Sadly the name of this strip has long leaked away - Mekele ? anyway, the morning wave about to launch delivering Bob Geldof's grain.
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img460_zps09659d43.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img460_zps09659d43.jpg.html)
First time I ever landed on a red and white runway-quick gas & go at Thule before heading north to Alert
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img461_zpsdd9c66d7.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img461_zpsdd9c66d7.jpg.html)

Minsk during one of the Stockholm ? treaty flights-fascinating trip as this was before glasnost and the wall coming down. Couldn't work out why the boss wanted to have his picture taken outside a government building downtown until he told us it was his V-force days target. Sobering stuff. What was less sober was the evening out drinking with our Soviet AF hosts-copious amounts of Vodka and very dubious champagne and some hilarious shenanigans with some KGB ladies.:)
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img475_zpsb734b178.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img475_zpsb734b178.jpg.html)

[smujsmith]

Great shots again Chickenlover, after a few days of searching my "cuddly" Fat Albert finally turned up. He has been living with my son for the past 8 years, so he was reluctant to being him back;

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/0997779bc4256ce1ea231798b47a9c31_zps30222327.jpg

I seem to remember winning it at a Lyneham families day, around 1990. Rumour had it that they were made by 70 Squadron Wives. Anyone else got one ?

Smudge:ok:

[Stretchwell]

Yes I've still got my cuddly Herc ! It was made by the wife of a LXX flight commander whose name escapes me...........:confused:

[Mal Drop]

The wife of Marcus H*******e made the LXX cummerbunds, was she anything to do with it?

[Stretchwell]

Yep - one and the same !

[bunta130]

Think you'll find it was Pete H.....e

AKA HBO.

Cheers

Pete

[smujsmith]

Bunta,

Didn't realise he was so good at the needlework. Certainly he produced something to last, and grateful I am for that.

Smudge:ok:

[bunta130]

Picky, picky......:cool:

It was his wife, Sally.......!

Cummerbunds/cuddly Hercs....she churned out loads of them....

[Mal Drop]

My mistake - not sure why I put Marcus as his first name but it may have something to with simultaneously booking tickets to a Classics forum at Cambridge...

[smujsmith]

I go with Bunta, definitely, cuddly Albert is the product of a Lady. And that's exactly what I suggested in posting the photograph. Of course, we should all recognise the support we had from our ladies, that made our lives so easy, down route.

Smudge:ok:

[smujsmith]

As I sit here on a quiet Sunday evening, my mind goes back a few years, and I see a tale, from a non aircrew viewpoint that might be of interest. For those who have no time, and for my longevity on it, I apologise, but a true story it is;

The Canadian Jobby

Off we went on a simple trip to Calgary, via St Johns (Newfie, but I didn't need to tell you lot that). As I recall, during the descent in to St Johns, the Co, who was doing the approach noticed a rather large clunk and kick back through the rudder pedals. The Captain took control, and experienced the same "kick" and clunk going through the neutral line of the rudder range of movement. In anticipation that it would not reproduce itself on the ground, I actually was invited to sit in the Co's seat to experience it for myself, it was very obvious. First things first, the A Team put Albert on the ground with a view to sorting it out. After Landing, myself and the Flight Engineer, if he follows PPRUNE he will remember this route, spent some time investigating. At first we suspected the Rudder booster pack was snubbing, then we hit each other around the head because snubbing is a function at the extremities of travel, not mid range. So, I acquired a safety raiser, removed a panel, and looked inside the "ducks bill" area.

I will try to keep it simple. The output rod from the rudder booster pack to the rudder lower operating lever is supported by a triangular piece of structure, obviously designed in that manner to maintain rigidity. As the Engineer operated the Rudder (we dropped the lever and ran it off the Aux pump) I watched as every rivet holding that bit of structure together wobbled loosely in its hole. A passing Flt Engineer (T Le C) had a look and joined me in considering an Eng Rep was in order. In fact his opinion would be well and truly "edited" by the mods on this site.

Following the eng rep, I phoned Lyneham Ops to speak directly with the duty Eng Ops Flight Sergeant, who on answering offered all the help one might expect from someone who has just had his pizza break disturbed. I was informed, in no uncertain manner that C130s do not go U/S down route, with structural problems (this bloke took a similar attitude on a later snag in Portugal, where he threatened me with career ending repercussians and OC Eng, perhaps something for another post) and I could safely ignore it. Luckily, the Eng Rep had also arrived at FATCOCK who decided that a replacement rudder booster pack and two "rigger" corporals would appear in St Johns the next morning. I asked for the equipment to replace the loose rivets in the support structure, which I was sure was causing the "lumpiness" in the rudder system. Somehow, the lads, the replacement booster pack and the rivet gun arrived, minus the oversize rivets I needed. Now, all GEs know that if you want something to mend your Albert, you can usually find it if you beg, so off I went, and actually found the oversize rivets I needed. We replaced the rudder booster pack, and even without the flight loading, still had the clunk. One by one we replaced the loose rivets, and blow me, the support structure regained its rigidity, and the clunk disappeared. By now we had worked 16 hours straight, the two Corporals straight off shift, an 8 hour flight and 16 hours mending. The Lineys were true gold. We were fixed and ready to go, 24 hours delay, and hot to trot as the crew arrive.

By now, I had spoken directly to the FATCOCK Eng controller, and having discussed our task he agreed that the two lads should be sent to the hotel, and would recover with our aircraft on the way back in two days time. So off we set for Calgary. I feel sorry for the Air Eng, Paul K, who I was pleased to meet again later in life. But we landed at Calgary on three engines having had No 2 prop go daft and overswinging beyond limits. So, a prop change. Paul and I did all the prep before going to the hotel, for the prop change team, who would arrive in 2 days, and I eventually saw a hotel room three days after leaving Lyneham. With a day off, I enjoyed a lie in, a couple of hours doing the tourist tick, and a few beers with the crew. Next day, the prop change team arrived, and we did the job. Ground runs and all ready to go, surprisingly we were given a night off again, before departure. The plan now, night stop St Johns for Lyneham, collecting two rigger Cpls on the way through (they would get back just in time to be on shift). On arriving at St Johns, only one of the two Cpls was in evidence, and as they were both blokes I had worked on shift with, I was concerned for the missing man. According to the one I found the other had met someone, night one, and not been seen since. Now, as I was a neighbour of this bloke on the patch, and knew him and his family well, I was taken aback a bit. However, as the night went on we managed to contact him, and convince him that it would be in his interest to attend our departure the next morning. He did, and he went on to both divorce his wife and marry the girl he met in St Johns, and, also became a C130 AGE.

A simple 4 day trip turned in to a week long nightmare. I suspect almost every ex GE, and possibly current ones can relate to this, it was bad news for me, goodness knows what the crew thought. From a GEs point of view, any snag on a route like this could mean you missed doing the Australia trip you were scheduled for after your day off at home. Thankfully it was not typical (apart from the Portugal unscheduled jobby) and Albert was basically a very reliable aircraft from an Engineering support point of view. I apologise for the long winded dialogue, I'm sure though that many Albert operators have had similar experiences.

Smudge :ok:

[bunta130]

Smudge

Whilst I did not hear of this one previously, I have oft hear mention of the Portuguese incident you refer to, along with rumoured OC Eng involvement.....do spill the beans...

In my years on Albert, we relatively infrequently broke; when we did, it was a very mixed bag of advice received from Lyneham. The most fatuous suggestion was to fly back across the Pond with a bung in one of the dump masts to 'cure a fuel leak'.....you couldn't make it up!:ugh:

Cheers

[chickenlover]

Morning all
Sadly off today to the funeral of a friend and fellow Ascoteer, Ken McCredie.
Thought this was sort of fitting.
If you haven't seen it before, watch out as it seems to stir all the dust in your house right into your eyes.....
Apologies if you've all seen it.
RAF Hercules Memorial Flypast - YouTube

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
I think most of us ex 'K' chaps can relate to the tale you have just told. The armchair 'experten' back home always thought we were swinging the lead.
Not the first time either that I have set off on a simple Akro n/s to return home many days later.
One on of these Akro n/s we turned up at ops expecting to go straight to Lyneham only to be told we were to go to Athens. A 'K' loaded with a fast jet squadron move was u/s. We were to take his load and go home from there.
So off we go. As we are taxing in I start to laugh over the i/c. We are in a Mk1 and the u/s 'K' is a Mk3 (stretched). The captain asks why I am laughing as he is sure group has not made an error. I am equally sure that any fast jet squadron move will be full to bursting. (on the 'we may just need it' grounds).
We shut down and I liberate the key from the battery box and climb aboard the striken a/c.
It is very full.
So I shut up the Mk3 and put the key back. The co organises a phone patch with group and I ask the ops controller which bit of the cargo he wants left behind. A bit of a tirade ensues (he is only talking to an ALM after all). When I get a word in I point out the physical impossibility of a straight transfer as our a/c is 15 ft too short. The penny drops at last and we are brusquely told to return to Akro and they will make other arrangements.
It could all still be there now !

[smujsmith]

Coming shortly Bunta. AA62, once again a familiar sounding event.

Smudge

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0011_zpsa3e1398b.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0011_zpsa3e1398b.jpg.html)

Still with VR at Pope AFB. All smartened up ready for inspection in the Little Lyneham HQ area

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0007_zps954bb303.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0007_zps954bb303.jpg.html)

This is straight after the MSP drop on VR we check that everything has worked as advertised and we are not into report writing !.

[ancientaviator62]

chickenlover,
had the pleasure of meeting JB in Delhi when he was the Air Attache there. We were supporting the Reds out to Langkawi for the Air Show.
No pics unfortunately as the film in my ancient Canon snapped !

[Hatchet 130]

Chickenlover,

Good to see you today albeit in sad circumstances, too often the case over the years.

Cheers for the RIAT Flypast link, as I said today I'm flying the 6 bladed devil's work nearest the crowd, however, I won't repeat the story I told today about the last minute formation change on this public forum.

I'm going photo rummaging in the cellar this evening, be nice to find one of the air to air photo chase with the blue Canberra for it's 40th anniversary, God that makes me feel old and I was only the Co;).

[smujsmith]

2 May 1990, a day of sadness. It was the day that the crew of the Shackleton, that had crashed in the Outer Hebrides returned home to Lossiemouth. RIP all, their return was to play a part in this story, which shows how occasionally, the ground engineering element of C130 support occasionally fell a little short. It was to be the start of a few days away that made me think seriously about Aircrew defect reporting, and subsequent abuse of the NFF (No Fault Found) by us ground tradesmen. I apologise beforehand for the length of this missive, but some heard about it, I lived it, and it gives a flavour at least of "how we were". I also accept that its only my version of events, I would welcome any input from others who "enjoyed" the trip.

So, I was detailed as the AGE on a five day trip that would run as follows. Night stop Lossiemouth, next night Gib, Lossiemouth, Gib flag Lossiemouth for Lyneham. There were two bonuses. The two night stops Gib came with an off base authorisation, at the time an allowance of £100 sterling, and probably the best rate on the planet (Kerching, as they say). Lossiemouth of course was in the Mess. The second bonus was the crew, all chaps I had been down route with before, and all top men. The skipper, who I will call BJ, was a particularly pleasant bloke, and extremely professional in his approach to the trip. We all knew each other, and I hope had a professional attitude to getting the job done.

So, day one, leg was Lyneham To Lossiemouth, and a civilised departure time due to the short flight time. As was my habit, having stowed my yellow box of tools, and personal baggage, I joined the Eng on the Flight deck for a coffee and a peruse of the F700 while awaiting the arrival of the "royals" from Ops. We both noted in the defects log that the aircraft had been snagged twice for rather large pressurisation fluctuations in the past week. Both times it had been investigated and cleared as NFF by the line lads. Well, who were we to argue, but it was something that stood out prior to departure. The front end eventually turned up, and off we went, northbound for Lossiemouth. In the cruise, and for once not in my hammock, my ears started "whanging about" horrendously, on discussing it with the crew, we all agreed that it started just after we had passed through some light turbulence, but made no sense with respect to the pressurisation system. As we had around 16 hours on the ground at Lossiemouth, I said I would have a look and see what I could find. After The A/F, loading of one small box in the middle of the freight bay between the MLG walls, I made use of a couple of the VASS lads to do a pressure run using the inboards only, and had achieved "max diff" before ATC told me to shut down, as the aircraft returning the Shack Crew was about to land. I complied immediately, shut Albert down, and could only tell my Air Eng, that I, like my Lyneham Line compatriots could find no fault. Now is a good time to recharge your glasses chaps !

Next day, we prepare to depart for our £100 bonus. I'd never stopped "off base" at Gib, and it seemed that we had been put in a very nice hotel. Apart from the box in the middle of the freight bay, we had a passenger, an RN Lt Cdr, on his way to Gib to join an exercise. So off we went. And all was fine, I arranged myself on some para seats in a well known resemblance of a GE in flight, and looked forward to a nice warm arrival in Gib. Somewhere over the Med a couple of hours later we hit a bit of turbulence, and I woke up with a lot of pain in my ears. The Navy chap was also suffering. As I woke up, I had positioned myself on the para seats immediately aft of the RH MLG (Right Hand Main Landing Gear), I looked up and saw a big gap between the RH MLG sidewall skin, and the angle fittings used to attach the centre wing section to the fuselage (Drag Angles). Noticing also that the RH MLG soundproofing was being sucked in to the sidewall, I stood on the cargo, and removed the soundproofing. A crack, around 12 inches long presented itself, busily farting out our pressurised air, and obviously having something to do with the fluctuations we were experiencing. I asked to go on the flight deck, and discussed it with the Eng and the Captain. Now the Captain wanted a look, so we went back to the freight bay, and he had a good look at what was happening to his aircraft. The crack, the drag angle, none of it looked good, and after his return to the front seats, he took the decision to divert to Porto, which was off to our left. We landed, I prepared an Eng Rep ( Engineering report) and duly dispatched it to Fatcock and Lyneham Ops. We had found the reason for the pressurisation fluctuation, and were all in agreement that it could not have been found, without the flight loading on the aircraft.

I have to digress very slightly, my experience to that point, apart from obviously passing the famous C130 AGE course (noted as being the hardest thing to pass in the RAF) I had previously been employed on Base 3 (major servicing) of Albert, and had served for several years as a team leader on Field Repair Squadron (formerly 71 MU) and was authorised to carry out repairs to primary aircraft structure. I was no newcomer to structural damage, so my Eng Rep was clear and concise in what I had found. I requested that Lyneham send the RAF Structural Assessor, using the Gib Schedule, due overhead the next day, who could advise on the status of our aircrafts structure. If that were done our passenger could be picked up to join his detachment too. This took a couple of hours, and I was grateful that both Captain and Eng stayed to help me both A/F the aircraft, and compile our report (including detailed diagrams). Our arrival at the hotel was met by a receptionist informing me that I was required on the telephone. My "friendly" Flt Sgt from ops had decided to communicate with me. Chief Tech Smudge, he said. "I'm not sure how many times I have to tell you that the Hercules does not go unserviceable for structural problems. You are to tell the Captain that in your opinion it is safe to continue the route with the aircraft as is". Well, what part of go away fornicating did he not understand ? Particularly as my Captain was listening in on an extension line. I explained what we needed, and whilst the Flt Sgt only informed me that I should make the most of my last trip as a GE, he confirmed he had read the Eng rep, and understood my suggestions. The next thing was a message for the Captain from Fatcock. Chief Tech Structural Surveyor to arrive on re routed Gib Sched in the morning. Prep pax and freight for transfer to the Sched, and take it from there. Once again, Command show at least some understanding of our situation. We now get to the nasty bit.

On arrival, the structural surveyor looked at his copy of my Eng Rep, and compared it to what I showed him. I had located a piece of paper in the cracked MLG skin in flight, which had now closed up, so the paper showed the crack clearly, likewise the wing attachment angle had been given the same treatment. On having a bit of a tug, he pulled out around six securing rivets on the angle, just by hand. His obvious knowledge of the structure led us to the rear RH MLG strut track, which had a long crack, most of the way down its length, and several very solid attachment bolts (around half an inch diameter) sheared off or missing altogether. We both agreed, it looked like the aircraft had had a very heavy landing, that went unreported, and developed to the current state. His decision was that the aircraft was unfit to fly, until some fly in repairs were carried out. He compiled a complete report on the damage found, and sent it off to Lyneham, not Fatcock. We then headed for the hotel to await developments. At the hotel, our surveyor briefed the Captain on what he had found, his recommended course of recovery, and answered any questions about the structure involved. So, the skipper was quite comfortable with the situation when he received to phone call from my friend, the Flt Sgt in Ops at Lyneham (he was a persistent bugger), who told him that OC Eng Wing had read the report, and that the aircraft was safe to fly back to Lyneham tomorrow morning. Skipper says "put OC Eng on the phone then", Oh, he's stepped out at the moment says Flt Sgt. "Well get him to phone me back when he steps back in" says the skipper. Next we receive a signal/FAX from Lyneham, telling us that, on the authority of the Station Commander, OC Eng Wing was authorising one flight, unpressurised, gear down direct to Lyneham on the next day. The skipper had it in writing, and put it to us that he would have to comply with such an order. There was no discussion as far as I remember, only that our structural surveyor said he wanted a civilian air ticket back to the UK (he eventually came home with us). The flight back to Lyneham took around 7 hours as I remember, was particularly worrying as we encountered more turbulence at the lower altitudes, and I watched the crack in the sidewall extend by over an inch during the flight. The surveyor could not be coaxed from the bottom bunk, it would have taken a tyre lever to get me away from that crack.

It turns out that on the evening of the last signal, the Station Commander had not been appraised of the situation, and that the signal/FAX had used his authority in a less than genuine light. Whatever, we got back, I spent a few more years as an AGE and as for OC Eng ? Well, for some reason he was short toured. Surprisingly I was never interviewed or questioned about my part in it, there was usually some sort of post mortem on such events. But the piece of skin with the crack in it,removed by the Marshalls fitter, when repairing the sidewall remains in my possession to this day. The structural surveyor made it fairly clear that he would not do "down route" surveys in future. And the crew from that route remain top of the pops in my book. Fact is, as I proved myself, finding this fault on the ground would have been difficult in the extreme, the leaks came as a result of pressure differential, and the different flight loading on the structure in flight. In later years we had an Aircraft on air test from AES that exhibited the same characteristics. Knowing the Flight Test crew at the time, I was allowed to go on the second air test, after no fault could be found on the ground. We pulled some sound proofing off and asked the Captain to put a little G on, crikey did the pressurisation fluctuate. The Portugal Jobby was a funny old event, and my second "stoppage" due to structure. I'm sure any other ex GEs reading this will have a chuckle. Perhaps some were blighted with particular snags. I apologise for such a long post, perhaps I should have written a book instead. But for me, it's another memory of supporting Albert down route.

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
no apology needed. As I said before it is amazing how the armchair 'experts' sitting comfortably back in the UK always know better than the man /woman on the spot.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0012_zpsbb8ff82d.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0012_zpsbb8ff82d.jpg.html)

First of two pics taken when I was on 47 at Fairford. El Adem (Libya, for the younger reader) detachment. Taken by one of the groundcrew who wanted to see an airdrop. This is 1 Ton ME (Manually ejected) and the containers were pushed out by the Air Despatchers. As you can see we are all wearing the regulation hard hats and B7 chutes.

[CoffmanStarter]

Welcome to the thread Hatchet 130. Looking forward to the Blue Canberra pics :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Hatchet 130,
I was on an 'interesting' formation change whilst airborne. We were a four ship practising for some flypast or other when the leader took us into cloud. As we lost visual with him and everyone else we encountered 'turbulence'.
When we emerged from the cloud we were now on the opposite side of the gaggle (no longer worthy of the name formation). The 'turbulence' was undoubtedly the airflow from another very close 'K'. The subsequent debrief was as they say, animated.
Did all the practices for the GW1 London flypast but on the day mother nature intervened !

[Mal Drop]

I was on the practices for that one as well AA62!

[ancientaviator62]

Mal Drop,
no doubt you were as disappointed as I was. I was in the lead a/c. Never did get to fly over London at a 'sensible' height, alas.

[Mal Drop]

I was in the frame with the Inertial Navigation platform as I knew how to work it (in those halcyon pre-GPS days). And yes, it was a bit gutting to call the flypast off but I did go to the memorial service at St. Paul's in 1996 where her Maj unveiled the plaque in the crypt.

[bunta130]

Smudge

That was exactly how I heard the story all those years ago, and it still makes my blood boil. OC Eng deserved not only to be sacked, but also to be treated to a bit of corrective behind the bikeshed admonishment.

It seems all other than that 'professional' behaved exactly as they should have done....

Some people do not deserve any position of authority; hopefully, that chap never held one again; albeit, I suspect he was 'admin moved' without proper action taken.

I trusted my GEs absolutely; if they weren't happy to fly, I would not do so, nor indeed in later days, put anyone else in that difficult position.

As I alluded to earlier, I was the subject of attempted bullying to fly once (and, although a newbie at the time, was quite ugly enough/bolshie to stand up for myself) when my nav, who had been listening to the conversation on speakerphone, decided to 'jump in'. Before the idiot (ops bloke) had a chance to dig himself in any further, he learned that we would not be taking his 'advice' and would wait for a suitably-qualified team to survey the damage.....my nav.....OC Ops (KF, and a bloody good bloke he was too) was incensed.....

I could quite imagine the pressure brought to bear on your captain at the time.

Regards

[NutLoose]

Having read that Smudge, it is disgusting, what is the point in begrudgingly sending out a structural expert and then Lyneham ignore his findings, that just makes no logical sense whatsoever, in fact it astounds me that having sent someone out they blatently ignore the facts and his report confirming them and the actions required to get it home.... I'm surprised when the crack started propagating you never diverted in to the closest airport that could take you.... You can knock the Civilian system but if a Licenced Engineer grounds something and states why, it would be a Brave Licenced Engineer that would override it as they would need to show just cause to do it.


.

[smujsmith]

Bunta, Nutty,

Thanks for both of your comments. In both of my structural problems, there was a common thread, and it wasn't OC Eng Wing. Like you, the crass ignorance shown to the very man who they had sent, as an "independent" expert was beyond belief. I will close the Portugal jobby for you with some information, that was given to me by the a senior Marshalls manager some months after the event, as he presented me with my cracked sidewall memento. Marshalls of Cambridge (MOC) were at the time the UK structural authority on RAF C130s, and, our structural man had copied them in with the diagrams and details, and suggested recovery actions. As was his normal practice. At least four hours before our departure from Porto, MOC sent recovery instructions to Lyneham to concur with the minimum repairs required to make the aircraft "fit to fly" back to Lyneham. Those instructions were "sat on", by someone in the RAF system at Lyneham. Allowing us to get airborne for Lyneham, in ignorance of the fact. I believe it was the later discovery of that, that created the postings. As I've previously said, no one in my reporting chain ever asked me a question about the incident, nor did they need to. I rather suspect that the paper trail, once looked at, exposed where the poor standards lay. I'm hoping that in relating these events, that its accepted I am simply relating the incident, as seen from my lowly point of view. Generally speaking the support from Lyneham was always first class when we had problems down route.

Smudge:ok:

[NutLoose]

I am surprised they never moved the Flight Sgt on from Ops, he seems to have forgotten that he is there to serve the operation of the fleet, not to hinder it through his attitude, hopefully he is no longer serving, as for the O/C Eng, I knew one EngO who was transferred to an MT section from an operational squadron! Perhaps that or a desk where he couldn't do any more harm... Can Service personnel now get prosecuted for manslaughter such as can happen in Civi street?