Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules

[NutLoose]

:(

Child 'Stowaway' Found Dead On US Military Plane (http://news.sky.com/story/1310049/child-stowaway-found-dead-on-us-military-plane)

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks AA62 ...

I'd assumed there to be some flexibility ... but still quite an ingenious solution. I guess it also helps to drop a full APFC thus reducing the "slosh" factor :ok:

Brian ...

Your full set of RAF Maps ... Would they be the old Green & White (square
folded) RNav Mecators or Low Level TOPOs ? It would be really great to have a scanned image posted on the thread of the run in to the DZ mentioned above ... if that's not too much trouble :)

Nutty ...

Very sad story. When I travelled in India on Business the manned Bashas close to the runways/taxiways to prevent such tragedies were very noticeable. I'm sure some of our Herc friends will have experienced similar desperate attempts.

Best ...

Coff.

PS. I'll post a few more of Drag's pics tonight if that's OK with everybody :ok:

[dragartist]

Bollox. yes Coff as AA62 says they were as tuff as old boots. The rubber was about 1/2" thick. Primarily seen under Wokkas. Two went on an MSP with pumping equipment what we called FARP (Forward Air Refuelling Point).


the reason for separating was to reduce the impact forces when it hit the sea. had the cradle remained attached it may have pierced it as the flat board was like a belly flop.


The later versions used eco friendly adhesives which were not thought to be as tough as those using sulphur and solvents.


in the early 2000s we were transitioning to the Mk2. As I was leaving the Mk3 was in development.


part of the Qualification testing was a static drop from x feet onto a concrete pad. Similar to testing UN TDG chemical drums but at room temp.


TSW were a helpful crowd along with the Battlefield Utilities IPT. we had a problem supplying the end fittings for the hose. They were like rocking horse droppings. Receiving units had improvised and bastardised.


Note the Elephants trunk tied to the top of the capsule. The square bit of canvas was to cover the floor beam to prevent the forward load snagging on its way out. It was traveling very fast from the front of the aircraft with the 7ft extractor. The rollers would have been red hot with a 10ft. the J rollers were inferior to Skydel.

[CoffmanStarter]

Drag old chap ... I see you've just signed on ... So here are a couple of your pics if you'd like to offer some narrative before jetting off :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/LastHSPCVRT_zps05144f9b.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/LLPoverlake_zps8107a216.jpg

Many thanks for the tech info above on the APFC :ok:

[Brian 48nav]

Coff,


They are Joint Operations Graphic - Air, Series 1501 AIR, Edition 1. The projection is Transverse Mercator. IIRC they were fairly recent in '68/69 and ahead of what was being used back in UK - I think our 1 : 250,000 series changed in about '72 at Lyneham.


SWMBO and I have completely forgotten how we put pics' etc on here - any chance you could PM us your email address and we'll send the scanned map on to you as an attachment.


AA62,


Sorry, I have been lurking, but as I explained before I can only recall a few slides from those days. Our planning application is before the committee tomorrow, so if we get the nod it will be full steam ahead to sort out our stuff!


No1 son, who was born in Changi Hospital, landed at Changi in his Airbus 350 last week ( showing the new jet in HK & Singapore - lucky devil! ) and asked the handling agent if he could arrange for him to visit the place of his birth. No chance came the reply - the hospital is derelict and fenced-off with no visitors allowed because of the ghosts :*.

[CoffmanStarter]

Brian ... PM sent :ok:

Good luck tomorrow ...

Best ...

Coff.

[dragartist]

Thanx Coff! being on 2 hrs NTM for so many years Speedos, Raybans, Emergency rations and soap on a rope in bag already!


First pic is a JATE neg what I thought was the last of the last HSPs discussed above several pages back.


Second shot is a DERA neg from Sept 2000. Not sure if it was testing LLRP (Low Level Reserve) or the LLP demo with the GQ of Irvin reserve. neither of which would have been viable at that altitude (200ft) hence the lake as a bit of a effort.


The CA release of the era allowed sending troops to war without a reserve. Work the ethics out for that in this day and age.


Signing out for a week now OK!

[CoffmanStarter]

Have a good one Drag old chap :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Good morning all ...

Here is the final pic from our good friend Dragartist. I believe it adds to the exploits described by Dougie M and AA62 in dropping "One Ton Waterproof Cardboard" loads to the Royal Navy ... Hopefully AA62 can add a bit more :)

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/Waterproof1ton_zps3d11b805.jpg

Coff.

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
the HSP is more my era. Looks like a CVR (T) (Combat Vehicle Tracked-recce) on it. The version we dropped was the Scorpion, which looked like a small tank (someone will have a pic I am sure). Great fun to drive around , very speedy with the Jaguar engine. I was never quite sure of the likely scenario for using them. You could only carry one HSP per a/c whereas you could get two MSP's in. So a lot of space would be wasted out of not a huge number of a/c in the stream. Heaviest HSP I dropped was a grader at 35000 lbs. I think the Scorpion was more like 25000 lbs

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
as I recall the SOP for OPS was to lower the drop height to 600 feet and the troops to jump without reserves on the premise at that height no time would be available to activate the reserve in the case of an emergency. Especially at night. This was with the old PX Mk4 static line main parachute.

[ancientaviator62]

Nut Loose,
the stowaway almost certainly climbed in there after the a/c had started and the crew door closed. Given the way the public can access some of these airports he could well have climbed in at any time the a/c stopped say at the holding point. We had regulations ref stowaways and hijackers etc .
A ground eng received an award for preventing such an occurrence. No doubt someone has the details. When we did Op Vigour (the Somalia Op) we had to be very careful in this respect at some of the up country strips.
But there is of course the famous story of the 'K' and the golfer !

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
not a lot to add really to the pic of the waterproofs. These are the sort that were dropped to the task force during Op Corporate. They would float but not indefinitely !

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/MSPKKDZ_zps53f6154a.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/MSPKKDZ_zps53f6154a.jpg.html)

Pic of an MSP landing on KK DZ. Brian should enjoy this. You can see the TROC (transfer release operating cable) whipping in the airflow. This cable triggered the pull of the main parachutes from the aft face of the platform to the top of the load so it could descend in a horizontal manner. It was crude but it (usually) worked. Other transfer methods were tried, like the one that had a form of railway points system, but they all had drawbacks.
After the drop it was reeled in the the ALM and stowed at FS245.
This is a lead in to an airdrop tale which I will relate next time, but which may make dragartist spill his holiday cocktail !

[melmothtw]

Thought this might be of interest to the Herc types posting here -

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/492623/c-130js-test-tactics-against-f-16.aspx

Is this something you trained for also, and did you ever find a way to defeat the fighter?

[Madbob]

Coff thanks for posting pics at #1004 above. Out of curiosity, what was the drop height for the last one with troops? Looks a bit sporting at 500-600 ft AGL....

MB

[smujsmith]

Melmoth,

Fighter affiliation was definitely part of 'K' training, certainly for SF crews. I think I may have posted this before, it's a RNoAF F16 which we had around an hours play with in Feb/Mar 1994. During Exercise "Winter Deployment"

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/43074d197859813724aa94b43d4aac52_zps42aa8141.jpg

As an AGE I was usually lucky enough to grab a para door position as look out, which gave me a chance to get involved in what was going on, instead of my hammock. In this instance I was positioned on the floor to the left of the Captain. I do know that for the Captain or Co, whoever was flying, it was hard work, and they were often drenched in sweat after a good session. I don't know about "beating" the fighter, I think the basic principle was to avoid being killed, run him out of fuel and then progress to the next TP. I do remember some fighter affil with a Macchi trainer during the run up to GW1, in UAE, when he came directly from behind us and turned with us easily, until we lowered the ramp with the GPMG mounted on it and the Loadmaster seated and ready to shoot. He pulled a few G, but our Captain claimed a kill :eek:

I'm sure the operators will know a lot more than myself.

Smudge:ok:

[melmothtw]

Cheers for the info Smudge, very interesting. Yes of course, by 'defeating' the fighter I meant avoid being shot down yourself as opposed to shooting down the fighter, though the GPMG story sounds a good one ;-)

[ancientaviator62]

melmothtw,
fighter affiliation as it was called was a part of the Herc tanker course which was carried out before the crews went down south. We used the Phantom and Harrier for normal course work but all manner of other a/c have been used in this role as smudge and others can testify. Did we ever 'win' ?
Well in this context winning was staying alive ! The only real hope was low and slow BUT you had to see him first ! Not easy even with the cupola manned and observers at the para doors. In fighter affil practice you usually knew they were around. This may not always be the case. Hopefully one of the drivers will be along to contribute.
As I related in my post the GPMG 'fit' (seems over the top to call it an installation) was in response to a perceived ground threat and was only mounted in the para door. It could be mounted to fire out of the ramp a la Chinook but apart from as a scare tactic as in smudge's story I doubt it would be very effective.
For a description of an Argentinian Herc being downed by a Sea Harrier just 'google' it.

[ancientaviator62]

madbob,
the aim was to get down to 400 feet for ops (higher for training). The US had done some comprehensive trials and I remember reading a report which tabulated the various drop heights and the percentage of likely casualties.
The problem with paratroopers is that they are effectively helpless whilst in the air. So the holy grail is to lessen this time. Of course it has to be balanced against the injuries caused to the paras by the adoption of a very low drop height. You could in theory get down to 200 feet with the current parachutes if you accept the associated risks. As I have been out some time I do not know what the current thinking is given that we do not have all that many paratroopers in the British Army these days.

[melmothtw]

Hi ancientaviator62, thanks also for the information. I read about the Argentine Herc and Sea Harrier shoot down some years back. Hard not to feel sorry for the poor blighters really, but c'est la guerre I suppose.

[CoffmanStarter]

Madbob ...

Glad you liked the pics ... But all the credit goes to our good friend Dragartist who was running the trials ... I'm just helping him post his pics :)

That said, I reckon you're about right with 400/500 AGL eyeball estimate ... Which is backed up by what AA62 has said above :eek:

Sorry but ... I personally never understood the 'desire' to jump out of a perfectly serviceable aeroplane ... But gladly salute those that do on behalf of HMTQ :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Looking forward to AA62's Airdrop Tale ... and hopefully someone will come along with the "K and the Golfer" story ;)

[WASALOADIE]

ADS - I may have missed a post, but I always remember ADS stood for Aerial Delivery System and if I remember correctly, the arms were fitted with micro-switches that inhibited the ramp switch.


Snatch - This was little more than a rope (abseiling rope I think) fitted with a grapple hook that trailed behind the aircraft. Height and speed and steady flying were the secret otherwise the hook would flail and strike the ground resulting in the hook breaking free and the rope recoiling and striking the aircraft. The hook used to trail abut 35ft below the a/c. The rope was then wound in by the AD troops and jammed in a series of cleats until another could be secured and finally winch in the rope attached to the package, all while the aircraft was kept fairly steady and slow.


My first ever drop on STS was a jungle line and it snapped resulting in a MALDROP report being raised.

[nimbev]

There was a GPMG 'fit' for the Beverley also firing out of a para door. Unfortunately with the enormous sponson and fixed undercarriage just forward of the door the field of fire was very limited and it was always more likely that one would do far more damage to one's own aircraft than to any enemy, whether on the ground or in the air.

[ancientaviator62]

WASALOADIE,
ADS did indeed stand for Aerial Delivery System, although I have seen variations on that theme in different publications. As I recall the ADS arms had but a single micro switch which cut off the power to the ramp switch when the arms were fully extended but only when they were connected to the ramp.
Of course manual operation was rather different . Jungle line drops with the extended riser could be hit or miss at times. I wonder if we are acquainted.

[smujsmith]

With regard to my previous post about "fighter affil" I should explain the GPMG. Suffice to say that a month or so before the bombing phase of GW1, a 47SF team was busy trying to get air troop re qualified for HALO ops. Having been deployed for the month, and SF being SF, any spare time was eagerly filled in with " other stuff". We worked out of Abu Dhabi, and our "skipper" had managed to make contact with an RAF Sqd Ldr on exchange with the local militia. Now, from memory, we had several fighter affil sessions with the said Sqd Ldr, and he bested us every time, to the extent he posted a gunsight photograph of me in the RH para door, under my hotel room door one morning ( when I find it I will post it). My memory suggests he was flying a Macchi 399, but I wouldn't bet on it, he beat us every time, and that annoyed our skipper. So, we put a GPMG on the ramp, properly secured, and not loaded. And headed off on yet another fighter affil, this time our exchange Sqdn Ldr was flying a Hawk. For 20 minutes or so, it took its usual course of Fox this and Fox that, lots of G and unusual attitudes (not least among the crew) and eventually he decided to go for the 6 o clock (up your chuff) shot. As the bank went on, we knew where he was, my fellow GE in the LH door gave a running commentary, his proximity to the Ramp controls made the whole thing quite efficient. At around 200 yards behind us, our ramp lowered and pointing straight in his face was a GPMP, with our Loadmaster "ready for action" (his first time on the detachment):sad: now, our attacker told us in the party room later that he pulled around 7G to avoid the "threat", but our skipper had called "Fox something" ? Before he made his break. I rather suspect that had it been a real fighter, with real missiles that the joke would have been on us. It was a great experience though. Now, there's a sad end to this tale. The Sqd Ldr exchange pilot became a regular member of our party room during the month long detachment, and sadly received a call informing him that his father was in terminal decline. As we were departing the next day, we actually offered him the quickest return to UK, with a VC10 hook up at Akrotiri, and took pride in delivering him on time. The man, despite his putting me in his sight, remains a hero to me to this day.

On the subject of "fighter affil", I rather suspect that one on one was good sport for our pilots, I also rather expect that most would also accept that a two fighter on one Albert was curtains. Our usual tactic was something like 50 flap and max turn rate, wait till the fighter ran out of fuel. With two of the buggers, one could sit upstairs and drop a sidewinder on you, with no probs. I could well be wrong, I was only an AGE after all. Apologies for the long post.

Smudge:ok:

[Trumpet_trousers]

That said, I reckon you're about right with 400/500 AGL eyeball estimate ...
Try about 150/250' lower and you're there (and no reserve) - the smell of fear onboard the aircraft was real...
Lac Ganguise, S. France, LLP operational trial, operating out of Francazal near Toulouse :ok:

[Brian 48nav]

Thanks for your help - map is on its way!


Got our planning permission for a new house for us in our garden, Yippee!

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Brian ...

Many congratulations to you both :ok:

I'll post the map tomorrow morning if I may when I fire up the Mac ... iPad is a bit fiddly ... Many thanks :)

Coff.

[CoffmanStarter]

Smudge ...

Great story ... but you've just got to find that gunsight pic :ooh:

TT ...

Where you involved with the trials ?

Coff.

PS. Brian's map up next with AA62's pic :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

TT,
thanks fr the para height update. As I suggested in my post things have certainly moved on since I left. How do they cope with their personal weapons containers or whatever they are called these days ?

[ancientaviator62]

I had hoped that someone with more knowledge of the golfer story would post. So I will try to remember it as it was told to me all those years ago. The captain was Chris K. (top bloke) who had been a brand new copilot when we first got the Herc on 47 Sqn.
They had been on one of the regular airdrop dets to Macrihanish and were now packing up to come home. The usual chaos ensued with people swapping frames etc. The ALM questions one of the pax who does not seem to quite 'fit'. He says he is a pal of the captain. Once airborne the ALM asks the captain if he would like his pal on the flight deck. 'What pal ? ' was the reply !
Turned out this chap was a civvy golfer who had seen the a/c come and go whilst airdropping. He rather fancied a flight so climbed on not realising they were going back to Lyneham and not landing back at Macrihanish ! I think he was also an enthusiastic amateur whisky tester. I have forgotten the outcome but I think Chris K went to Cathay when his short service comission was up.
Airdrop tale next.

[CoffmanStarter]

Good morning all ...

OK ... This could be interesting and a bit of fun ... I hope you don't mind Brian ;)

A new game "Where's Albert" ... a sort of a cross between "Spot The Ball" and "Where's Wally" type competition.

Now that we have Brian's map (dated 68/69) and AA62's pic (as yet undated). Remembering both guys were on different missions ... Brian is claiming that AA62's pic is showing the Island of P Stindan. But I'd like to suggest that perhaps the Island in AA62's pic is a little further north up the coast near Kpg T Sari (where there is another headland promontory and an island in a bay) and the other Island in the distant mist possibly being Paluau Sri Buat.

My reasoning ... the topography of the Island in AA62's pic appears more sympathetic albeit a direct track to the DZ from there would have taken Albert closer to high ground (770' BT Tanafi Abang).

Just a bit of fun ... what do others think :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/Misc_0000059A_zps63d9f7e4.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/navmap001_zpsbb2b8604.jpg

Best ...

Coff.

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
my pic is from 1970/1, and I am sure we were using the same routes to the same DZ's. But as for where on that LL route we are I know not as we were rather busy 'down the back' before the ramp and door was opened.

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ...

I thought that would be the case ... It's just that Island in the distant mist, to the right in your pic, that got me going ... I expect someone with Hyperperspective Vision will come along and either agree or shoot me down ... Just a bit of fun anyway :ok:

[nimbev]

Always wondered what the Loadies were doing down the back - this thread provides the answer - taking photos! :O:O:O

[CoffmanStarter]

Come on Nimbev ... I believe you were a former Directional Consultant ... Where would you put AA62's Albert on the map above ... :O

[ancientaviator62]

nimbev,
it is only now that I realise that I had not taken enough photos. Nor even taken better care of those I did take.

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ...

The Golfer ... I hope he took his spikes off before coming aboard ;)

[Brian 48nav]

Chris K is a very good friend of mine, though we were never on the same squadron - I did 48 & 30 and he was 47 & 24. We were neighbours in Alexander Drive, Cirencester, along with Jeff Berryman & Don Grange.


In fact he was at my son's wedding 5 weeks ago.


After the 'Golfer' he and his Flt Cdr, who had also been on the aircraft, had to go to Upavon for a boll*cking. Said Sqn Ldr, name rhymes with Parrot, gave Chris quite a hard time in the car on the way there, with comments like 'You've ruined my career'.


Chris was so pi55ed off with the whole affair that, despite being a child of the services - his dad had been a Wg Cdr and brother a Cranwell graduate - he resigned his commission! He had been committed to 38 point and did not have 8 & 12 options.


He spent 5 years with BA before joining Cathay in 1978. He was the most senior of the '49ers' sacked by Cathay ( pour encourager les autres! ) in 2001.


A top top bloke; I feel privileged to be counted as one of his mates.

[Brian 48nav]

Thanks again for putting the map here - I can understand your reasoning except the headland north of Kpg T Sari does not have a small hill on it and does not sweep around the bay as much as much.


I didn't show enough of the map to indicate Pulau Tioman, which rises to 3406' AMSL - it could be the tip of that in the distance. I expect you all know that Tioman was used for some of the scenes in the film Bali Hai.


Anne and I went there in '98, we flew in from Seletar where IIRC there was a Belfast parked. I can't remember the name of the operator but they had a Herc' in the same livery.

[nimbev]

Coffman
I can see arguments for both locations - however navs were supposed to concentrate on where they were going rather than where they had been so wrong person to ask! Also I never got to such exotic places :E:E:E

AA62
You are so right about taking more care of photos. I have lots of Bevs in the sand, but almost none of my time on Hercs.

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks chaps ... AA62, Brian and Nimbev ... It will be my pleasure to stand you all a beer or two if we ever get the opportunity to meet some fine day :ok:

Right ... With 79,000 'Hits' and just over 1,000 contributions to this Thread ... Where are we going next AA62 ? ... You've still got a story to shake Drags holiday 'cocktail' ... and at some point the Herc Stream pics :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

[CoffmanStarter]

PS ... Nimbev ... 'Bevs In The Sand' what a cracking title for a new PPRuNe Thread ... :ok:

Happy to help with pic posting if you need assistance :)

Coff.

[mmitch]

A civilian observers story. About 20 years ago sitting on the beach on the Luce Bay range listening and trying to spot a Harrier dropping munitions.
As Harrier clears a Hercules begins a run over West Frugh airfield at around 500' and drops 3 paratroops then circles around and drops 3 more. So I jump in my car to drive over to get a better look. On rounding a bend in the round I find a RAF Landrover parked in the road and a parachutist with his canopy fully covering a large tree and needing a ladder. The delay it caused ended with the airfield announcing to the pilot it was now closing and the plane and its occupants would have to stay the night!
Another memory of that holiday was watching a Herk fly by the cottage I was staying in but below it in the valley in twilight!
mmitch.

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
I think it is us 'K' posters who owe you a beer for triggering this output of pics and tales of the old beast. Airdrop story tomorrow. Had a tooth out today so not as awake as I should be.

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
if you see Chris give him my regards. And I know Don Grange and Jeff Berryman from the early days. Did you ever use Gong Kedah (?) airfield when you were on 48 ?

[nimbev]

Happy to help with pic posting if you need assistance Thanks for the offer Coff - I am away from home for a while so dont have access to pics. When I get hold of them I will take up your kind offer of advice.

[ExAscoteer]

With respect to DACT, it wasn't just the SF crews that trained, but the Tanker crews that were going Down South.

A single F4 was always easy, get down into the weedosphere and keep turning and you would win every time. Two F4s was more difficult.

Harriers were a pain in the rear end.

Interestingly I was involved with a trial with the GR1, the idea being the GR1's cannons were downwards pointing (for strafe) so the theory went that they would be able to engage us from above when we were at low level in a way that normal AD fighters could not.

Cue an hour in Scotand wazzing about while a couple of clean GR1s tried to engage us (ably supported by a Tanker).

After an hour it was apparent that they couldn't.

[ancientaviator62]

Another airdrop tale. When I was on JATE (Joint Air Transport Establishment) the remit was the trialing of airdrop and air portability equipment in the 'K'.
We would be tasked by an external agency to do whatever trial they requested.
One day we were tasked to do a trip in support of the defence sales arm of MOD.
The (very) optimistic overall plan was to try to sell the 105 mm Anglo-Italian light field gun to the USA. We were to fly to Pope AFB in North Carolina (hands up how many have been there !) and airdrop the gun on an MSP. This was not a real problem as we had been dropping it for a while, usually with the prime mover which was a 1 tonne Land Rover. The gun was put on the platform first then the one tonne 'sat' on top. Then they were surrounded by all the ammo etc needed. Dragartist would not be impressed by where the vertical C of G would end up !
However MOD wanted to make a real impression and drop the MSP with the gunners going out on the same run using the 22 ft steerable, for which they would need training ! We pointed out that we did not have a clearance for this combo as it had never been trialed.
On an ABEX the heavy drop either used an adjacent Dz to the troops or went in first . Thus the gunners would be in the main para stream. You could get two MSPs in an a/c and to leave space for the gunners would reduce this to one.
No problem says MOD, do a feasibility study . And so we did fitting it in around our other work.
The other ALM and myself very quickly identified the main problems. Apart from a few specialised a/c fittings with which I will not bore you, which we designed and JATE workshops made, there were two major showstoppers as far as we were concerned. The first was the safety of the gunners (RHA paras) as they followed the departing MSP down the a/c. One any such airdrop role the cargo floor is a trap for even the very experienced. There are side guidance beams, transverse beams, floor protection kit and restraint beams etc. We thought this could be overcome by careful briefing and rehearsals on the ground before attempting a practice drop.
The real problem was the Transfer Release Cable (TROC) which you can see clearly whipping about in my previous pic. We were very concerned that it would cause problems for the exiting paras. The problem was how to prevent this. We had several 'helpful' suggestions none of which we liked.
You monkeyed about with the TROC at your peril. If it operates too early in the sequence then you run a real risk of the platform rotating inside the a/c. Not good. If it did not operate at all then the platform would descend vertically and not horizontally. This would not do it and the load any favours.
We had several other MSP trials on the go at the same time so had a chance to study the problem in situ. My colleague suggested that if one of us followed the MSP down the port side as it departed perhaps we could JUST grab the TROC and pull it right over to the port side as the paras shuffled down the centre of the a/c, which was the safest way to get them aft to jump. We tried it out on a 'routine' MSP drop and it seemed to work.
After the gunners had received 22 foot training we had two full dress rehearsals. My colleague was i/c TROC retrieval (well it was his idea) and I was responsible for the paras who were briefed NOT to jump without a positive signal from me whatever the colour of the jump lights. It all worked better than we had hoped (low tech rules OK) so we were good to go to 'no hope Pope' as the USAF called it. We just had to remember to take all the bits and bobs needed for the final part of the installation. Oh and the HUPRA !
On 29 Aug 1976 we set off for Pope via Gander (a pound for every time I have been there) in XV 191 arriving in Pope the following day. The next day was spent doing the final rigging and VERY careful checks of the complete installation. We spent some of the time answering questions as the US airdrop system is very different.
On September 1 we flew from Pope to 'Sicily' DZ .My logbook records 55 mins so perhaps we did a mini LL but I do not remember.
The actual drop worked perfectly, with both MSP and troops playing their parts to perfection. It was a great to see the MSP floating 'gently' down under all sail and to count six perfect 22 feet canopies. We just looked at each other and our grins were mainly for relief !
We were told that the gunners unloaded the gun etc in record time and fired off a dummy round to prove it worked. We had several beers that night.
Did the US buy the gun ? NO ! Probably on the NIH (not invented here) principle.
We had huge problems getting back not the gun but the 1 tonne L/R which the troops loved ! Eventually on 5 Sept we set off for Barksdale AFB to pick up a few bits of kit left over from a V Bomber det. After a n/s we set off next day only to return with what my log book records as 'engine problem'.
I do not recall what the problem was but I do remember helping the G/E on a very hot and humid night change something (ignitors ?) on the engine as my small hands made access easier. We came home via Gander and back to Brize. I can still smell the parched earth as we descended after the famous 1976 heatwave.
All in all a successful and interesting trip.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/BLACKANDWHITEMSPALMVIEW_zpsef460ef1.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/BLACKANDWHITEMSPALMVIEW_zpsef460ef1.jpg.html)

Yes I know we have had this pic before but I thought it may help make more sense of my MSP tale. It was not taken on the Pope trip and it may not be the gun/1 tonne combo (perhaps someone can confirm or otherwise) but it gives a good idea of what it would have looked like and some of the 'floor furniture' traps that the paras had to avoid as they shuffled down the a/c.

[gopher01]

It was a dark and stormy night and the Captain said to the Mate, actually it was a quite warm night at a little strip on an island in the east of the Med, later to gain some fame for an incident concerning brakes and a Herc, and nobody said anything to anybody and there lies the problem.
It was the culmination of an Infill/Exfill mission with the boys from Hereford practicing on a nearby major airbase. The first part of the sortie had gone off fine, the landing being carried out with the Co on NVG, ( this was pre 1980 so the flight deck was not NVG compatible apart from tapeing over some of the brighter lights on the Panel, those being mainly the warning indications! ) and the recovery also being quickly carried out, the fact that the Op name was Wild Goose may have been the reason the boys stayed close to the aircraft, they must have seen the film as well.
Arriving back at the little strip an engine running offload was carried out under operational conditions, only red lighting down the back and the Captain offered a lift back to the main base to the air trafficers at the strip to save them driving back to the main base. The Loadie, G.E. and dispatcher then get involved in tidying up the back of the aircraft and then securing the air traffic Sherpa and the air traffic guys board the aircraft and lurk by the wheelwells. Captain feels he needs update on whether the aircraft is ready to go and as everybody down the back is off the intercom asks for confirmation on are we ok to depart. A member of the flight deck goes to the ladder and gives an interrogative thumbs up to the bods he can see down the back and receives back a confirmatory thumbs up. On being told all is well Captain advances throttles and releases brakes and commences take off run.
Sheer hell brakes loose down the back as the Loadie is under the Sherpa chaining it down, the G.E. is approaching the ramp hinge line with an armful of strops and the dispatcher is taken off balance and falls over just behind the G.E. taking his legs out from under him with both off them ending up by the ramp controls with the G.E. sitting on the dispatcher. Instant thought of "O. ...T" and swift selection of up ramp got the ramp above horizontal before rotation and up and locked shortly after.
This was followed by the Loadie, A... ......y, storming onto the flight deck to find out what the hell was happening, if not quite in those words.
At the very quiet and rather alcoholic debrief afterwards it turned out that it was the air traffic bods who had received and returned the thumbs up thinking it was, are you on board?, yes we are! You might ask didn't any body see the Ramp and Door warning light, remember the cockpit wasn't NVG compatible and some lights had been taped over, guess which was one of them as the infill was a door open approach and landing with the ADS arms disconnected and stowed. It went to prove that sometimes you perceive things to be what you expect rather than what they really are!
I always wondered what the effect of taking off with the ramp in that position would be but didn't ask as I decided I might not like the answer.

[ancientaviator62]

gopher01,
a classic tale from which only providence/luck has saved the day(well night). People forget that the early SF 'frames' were nothing of the sort, in respect of kit or the lack of it. Regarding the door master warning light it could be put out with the crew entrance door still fully open ! When we first got the 'K' we had lots of crew entrance door warning light problems usually as we climbed out. Eventually the staff 'solution' was to remove the door closed microswitch and rely on the door locked microswitch So you could turn the crew entrance door handle to the locked position with the door fully open and it would put out the master door caption. I think we were the only Herc operator to do this.

[CoffmanStarter]

A couple of great tales AA62 and Gopher :ok:

What's impressed me with these tales has been the level of practical problem solving needed on every mission ... proving that nothing is/was ever routine in the Herc World ... and if the entire crew didn't keep their wits about them ... someone was going to get bitten.

Simply fascinating ... please don't stop ... I'm sure others will be encouraged to share similar tales ...

PS. I'm sure the Statute of Limitations applies :cool:

[CoffmanStarter]

I just wonder if a few Flight Deck members could comment on the stick forces and trim changes as some of this heavy duty kit whizzed out the backend ... there must have been quite significant CofG changes as the load moved and then exited :eek:

[nimbev]

Two interesting tales from AA62 and gopher -

On an ABEX the heavy drop either used an adjacent Dz to the troops or went in first One of the (few) advantages of the Bev was the ability to do a combined drop. 2 MSPs down below and 30 troops in the boom and drop them on one run. By the time one added in all the safety margins you needed a bloody big DZ and the paras inevitably had a long hike to get to their vehicles.

[ancientaviator62]

nimbev,
when we went to para wedge dropping with door bundles and then the troops on the same run you did indeed need a big DZ. Would not be the first time the 'red' has come on with 3/4 paras to go. They went anyway as there was no realistic way to stop them. As you infer the troops did not like the long walk back to retrieve the kit. When were you on the 'K' ?

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
there will be a driver along soon I am sure but plotting out the trim forces on paper showed triple ULLA to be the worst. I remember the trim line went from one side of the trim sheet (not just the envelope) to the other. But the speed at which the extracted loads departed meant that these extreme trim changes were transitory and over very quickly. We did have an allowed extension to the normal trim envelope which was sometimes intruded into when dropping 1 Ton Auto split sticks. This was to allow for the fact that this load was dropped in two separate runs and with heavy containers the a/c could be nose heavy once the aft load had gone. You could land in this configuration but the Aircrew Manual caution min brake use and max reverse to keep the load off the nosewheel. At the very forward limit the a/c was then supposed to be towed in !
On para with wedge and door bundles and a lot of fuel the trim could be fairly well aft once the paras were at 'action stations' and all had shuffled down towards the rear.

[nimbev]

AA62
Started the OCU around Sept67 - 18 months on 24 then to the OCU. Left Hercs end of 71 and never went back. Ended up in kipper fleet.

[ancientaviator62]

nimbev,
thanks for the info. We seem to have 'avoided' each other. I did the Herc course Jan 68 when the Hastings folded (36/24). Then to 47 at Fairford and then to 48 till the end of FEAF.
Finally parted company with the 'K' In 1997 after the HEART job. No ground tours although in terms of hours flown one or two seemed like it .

[nimbev]

AA62
I dont know how many crews there are on a Herc Sqn nowadays. In 68 we had 24 crews on 24Sqn in 2 flights of 12. I think we were the only transport sqn that flew in constituted crews rather than operating as a pool of trades. Mind you with sickness/courses/pregnant wives etc the planning board soon fragmented and looked much like any other sqn - but at least they tried, maybe it was because the boss was ex maritime.
With the amount of 'dead time' spent down the route, especially the Changi slip where one was away for 10 days in which you only flew 4 times, you needed a lot of crews.
In 67, ISTR 242 OCU was operating with 2 courses on the flying phase and 2 courses in groundschool at any one time. The throughput was incredible. By the time I went back to the OCU in 69 they were down to 1 course on flights and 1 in groundschool. Ahhh Thorney Island - one of the best postings of all time;)

[nimbev]

AA62 and others...
In 1976 we had a number of Herc ALMs posted onto Nimrods, amongst them some ex instructors from my time at T Island. ISTR they fitted in extremely well, certainly the one on my crew was superb, and I believe that there was talk of some wishing to retrain as AEOp.

Does anyone know what happened to them - I went overseas at beginning of 78 and by the time I came back I dont think there were any ALMs around the Nimrod fleet (unless they were all at the other station).

[CoffmanStarter]

The Royal Air Force will drop relief supplies to Iraqi refugees forced to flee their homes by the advance of the Islamic State extremist group. After a meeting of the Government's Cobra emergencies committee, Defence Secretary Michael Fallon said he hoped the relief operation, particularly targeting members of the Yazidi religious minority trapped on a mountainside, could begin "in the next couple of days".

Looks like the Herc J Force will be called upon ... Good wishes to all involved ... Come home safe.

[smujsmith]

I for one will second you on that Coff. Stay well lads and lasses, come home safe.

Gopher 01, what a tale, and quick thinking indeed. Nothing on the SF side changed greatly by the time I had joined you 88 onwards. Do you know the details of the attempted hijack and the GE, I heard about it, but never learned who the GE was? Keep em coming mate.

Best

Smudge:ok:

Still looking for the gunsight shot, but will have to throw Mrs Smudge in the loft again.

[ancientaviator62]

nimbev,
all the ALMs who went to Nimrods were recalled to normal duties. I do not know if any did remuster to AEop, but I doubt it.
Yes the early 'K' courses were paralleled and a real production line. It was needed as Lockheed delivered the a/c at a speed that surprised MOD.

[ancientaviator62]

Another airdrop tale. Those who wish to fall out may do so now. This one is out of the 'you could not make it up' file.
I was on 48 Sqn but not in Changi alas, but at Lyneham after we has brought the squadron back. On the 19 June 1972 in XV 179 we set off on the following route. Lyn -Bermuda- Nassau-Nassau ? (log book does not say why) Coolidge-Georgetown (Guyana)-Bermuda-Lyn. We were going to Guyana with kit for the British Army who were running a training scheme out there. We would be backloading a similar amount. We had two captains who were being route checked by 'Jolly Jack' H. All very routine as we left Guyana full up for the return home. As we neared Bermuda the US Navy controller asked us what our endurance was. This was unusual and we were puzzled as the WX forecast was good and there was no indication that the runway was 'blacked' for any other reason. The Nav and the Eng worked it out and we told them. I think in those days we may have operated the famous 'island holding' fuel reserve for Bermuda.
We were then told the reason for the request. A yachtsman was in distress off Bermuda. He was complaining of stomach pains. A US Navy P3 had been out on patrol and he was overhead the yacht but needed to land ASAP.
Could we orbit the yacht to provide a bit of reassurance ? There was a boat on the way from Bermuda but would not reach him until much later.
So off we went relieved the P3 and took up station.
Someone, I cannot remember who came up with a cunning plan. Why not help this chap by dropping a first aid kit to him ! It all snowballed from there with everyone putting up suggestions. Well the only first aid kit worth dropping was the ELFAK (Emergency Landing First Aid Kit) as it was well stocked.
It was left to me to work out how to do it, as it was not as straightforward as it seemed. We needed to put the ELFAK in a container, so the co pilot Graham C , great bloke with a wicked sense of humour- later of B.Cal and BA)
'volunteered' his RAF holdall. So in went the ELFAK, and I even remembered to unlock it first ! Now all airdrop has to obey certain rules and one of these is density. By necessity we would use the port para door as the ramp area was 'chokka'. Because of the size of the bag it needed to be weighted to achieve the min density so when it left the a/c it would not fly into the tailplane. In went several tie down tensioners until I was happy. We needed it to float so two pax LSJs were inflated and stuffed inside. Two more were inflated and securely tied on the outside. The lights on the LSJ were coaxed into operation by putting the batteries in a paper cup of water with salt from the lunch boxes. So we did a modified ASRA pattern with a dummy run then a live drop.
Immediately after the bag was despatched I looked out and with relief saw that the tailplane was undamaged. Job done.
We circled until we had to land, but not before we saw that he was close to retrieving the bag. The US Navy thanked us and we went to the hotel for a beer and to tell ATFOC the news. We expected a delay whist they sent a new ELFAK. No such luck, it was return as per the schedule.
Next morning the US Navy told us the chap had retrieved the bag and that the boat had reached him and he was OK.
Now you cannot dispose of kit belonging to HM in such a cavalier fashion and not be called to account. It took some while for the system to grudgingly admit we had acted 'in the best interests of the service' (wonderful phrase) and agree to write off the missing bits. Even the armchair 'experten' back at base thought we had done a half decent job.
All over then ? Not quite !
A few months later the co gets a call from the guardroom to the effect that the civvy police would like a word. So off he goes. The police show him a rather sorry looking RAF holdall and ask if it belongs to him. Graham turned it over and there a bit faded was his name. (did not we all put our names on the bottom ?). Yes he said, but how did they get it ? It turns out that the yachtsman had sent all the bits back to Lyneham. Of course having been written off they no longer existed as far as the RAF were concerned. So the holdall was sold to a local Mil surplus store. Someone bought it and it was discovered at the site of a break in containing the burglar's tools.
The police thought they had an easy case but Graham's story of it being turfed out of the port para door near Bermuda was easily verified.
The story of just another day in the life of 'K' truckie crew.

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ... Brilliant :D:D:D:D

A whole new meaning to the phrase "Going Equipped" :}

Mind you ... How close were you to the Bermuda Triangle ... Spooky things happen out there you know :uhoh:

Coff.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/BEVERLEYINHERCCOCKPIT_zps17219081.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/BEVERLEYINHERCCOCKPIT_zps17219081.jpg.html)

Coffman,
glad you liked the ELFAK tale.
This is 'herself' explaining to the Air Eng how it all works ! And no she does not read these posts.

[Lyneham Lad]

I note that it states on the bottom of the centre console "This is a Mark 3 aircraft". Did one tend to forget what one was flying , then? ;)

[ancientaviator62]

Lyneham Lad,
the reason for the notice was to remind the pilots to care care when rotating the longer MK 3 a/c as it was easy to allow the bumper on the back of the ramp to kiss the runway. Bob R got his nickname 'Bumper' from just such an occurrence.

[smujsmith]

Not to forget the urinal drain tubes AA62. ISTR a few instances of ground down tubes turning up on the After Flight inspection:rolleyes: good spot Lyneham Lad.

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

I'm not familiar with the Herc flight deck chaps ... so forgive a possibly naff question ... is the "cover" over the throttle/pitch levers to keep FOD out of the quadrant when on the ground "chocked" or for some other reason ?

AA62 ... I'm sure Mrs AA62 made a fine Captain :ok:

[smujsmith]

Coff,

Precisely as you say, an anti FOD device. The slots for the power and condition levers were wide enough to allow all sorts of stuff through. If working on the overhead panel, for example, you dropped a screw that went through, the resulting FOD plod could keep you away from the bar for hours :uhoh: I believe the Flt Eng usually removed it before and replaced it after flight when en route.

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Cheers Smudge ...

There was a little voice deep down telling me to type something about "hiding the Co-Pilots mistakes" ... But I resisted :E

[smujsmith]

Coff,

that's spooky :eek: so was I. Of course as an AGE I would never hear a bad word said against my Co, who was the imprest holder, and usually a very competent and hard working chap:rolleyes:

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Wise stance that man ;)

[smujsmith]

Coff,

I always respect the drivers, well nearly always! On the back of each pilot seat, when I worked on the beast, was a stencilled CAPT and CO. Obvious one might think, to prevent us daft techies fitting the seats (which I recall were "handed") in the wrong positions. Word quickly got around the Line servicing squadrons though that it was actually for aircrew use, in helping the appropriate pilot to find his seat before they went flying. I know for a fact of several attempts to re stencil the seats, and see what happened, but to my knowledge, none of the Captains or Co's were caught out. Is this proof positive that Royal Air Force pilots are more creatures of habit, than literate ?

Smudge:ok:

[Mal Drop]

With reference to the throttle quadrant cover, I once saw an Air Eng wrestle one into place after shutdown (and making a fair struggle of it) before leaving the flight deck happily chatting to the Captain. I let them get to the bottom of the crew steps before suggesting that it for aesthetic and noise abatement reasons it might be a good idea to also shut down the No. 1 engine which was still happily chuntering away in ground idle.

There were definitely days when I felt I was reading the checks purely for my own amusement...

[smujsmith]

See what I mean Coff ? Never underestimate the capabilities of a Hercules Co Pilot. Mal drop, the only thing you missed was the GE up his ladder on No1, trying to avoid the prop whilst fitting the intake blank. I bet it was a good night stop.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
like many of her species Mrs aa has a natural air of command. There is no one finer at supervising whatever the task ! On that note I will cease this thread drift less trouble lurks !

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
there is the tale of a co dropping his ciggie down said console in flight.
The captain informed the staging post en clair to embarrass the co. On the next leg the captain dropped his ciggie. So the co broadcast this to the whole world.
Not a happy flight deck !

[smujsmith]

AA62,

Your mention of the ciggies brings back a thought. When I first worked on Albert in 1971, each crew station had an ashtray fitted, and, if my memory serves me correctly the After Flight schedule required the emptying of the ashtrays. Fast forward to Smudge the GE circa 1988 and, though the mountings were still there, the ashtrays were no longer there. When did they disappear ? I do remember one Captain who managed to salvage one of them, and, respect to him, took it away with him after landing. I was a smoker throughout my time as a GE, and certainly struggled on a 12 hour leg and a Captain who forbade the evil weed. Many the delayed refuel due to "GE essential nicotine fix". Glad to say I'm smoke free for five years now, and can't think what ever attracted me to it. Anyway, ashtrays, when did they disappear ?

Smudge :ok:

[Wander00]

As a youngster, in final term at the Towers and doing a fortnight with 114 on Argosies flying as supernumary crew. "Gear up, flaps up, coffee up" - and straight down the throttle box as the Q tripped on the steps

[ksimboy]

Smuj,
I don't recall the ashtrays being there in 85 when I did my tanking course, but I do have memories of the "clear first class" call on board the tanker. Always puzzled me that one!
Talking tankers did anyone else take pleasure in pouring water down rear urinals when the receiver was plugged in or was that just me?

[DCThumb]

I though the throttle quadrant cover was to stop scrabble pieces falling down....

[smujsmith]

Ksimboy,

"Talking tankers did anyone else take pleasure in pouring water down rear urinals when the receiver was plugged in or was that just me?" - You naughty boy, if taken short I'm sure you can be excused, but surely you didn't have a deliberate discharge :rolleyes: I have a tale of the urinal drain, that will forever remain in my memory. Here goes;

I believe it was my second "improver" as a GE (after completing the course we did three trips with experienced GEs to ensure we were "safe") and we landed at gander with the RH urinal half full of pi$$. There was obviously a downstream blockage and despite giving it a few minutes to allow for ice etc, it did not clear. My "checking GE" advised me that holding my thumb over the RH urinal drain with the GTC running could cause a back pressure to relieve the blockage. I duly sat behind the probe and blocked the drain with my thumb. After a few minutes of this, he shouted to tell me to remove my thumb. Yep, half a urinal all over me:eek: it wasn't pleasant, but a lesson I learned, always stand to one side when dealing with urinal blockages. Considering my experience as an Airframe man on Albert, I was really taken in. Having confessed to this now obvious trap, I hope you blokes won't take the pi$$. Thankfully, I managed to get the Co to pay the laundry bill for the overnight cleaning of the growbag. Perhaps the less attractive side of Albert.

DC Thumb. Obviously did a few ASI/ MPA trips!

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
from the compressed view of memory it seems as if they were removed sometime in the mid seventies. As a lifelong non smoker I welcomed the major shift towards non smoking that took place around that time.
Shortly after the 'K' came into service we began to have a lot of air con/pressurisation problems. The groundcrew found that various components in the system, especially the valves, were coated in a dark brown gunge.
In those days pax were allowed onto the flight deck to smoke. Smoking was obviously the culprit in respect of the problems. They brought some samples of the components around to the squadrons and they were not a pretty sight.
If that did not encourage people to give up nothing would.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/BEVERLEYANDMSP_zps027b0279.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/BEVERLEYANDMSP_zps027b0279.jpg.html)

I have been asked what piggy back means in respect of MSP loads. As a pic is worth a thousand words here is a typical piggy back training load as displayed at a Lyneham Famlies Day with Mrs aa doing her Alfred Hitchcock act.
A pound for every time I have airdropped a Landrover !

[nimbev]

the major shift towards non smoking that took place around that time.I wonder whether the 'nav turning his oxygen mask into a blow torch' incident had anything to do with it?

[ancientaviator62]

nimbev,
I remember that incident ! But I think there were others who came very close to immolation !

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000102A_zps1ee1c515.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000102A_zps1ee1c515.jpg.html)

The sunsets could be spectacular but some of those night legs seemed to go on for ever.

[CoffmanStarter]

Well done to all involved at Brize over the last 48 Hrs :D:D:D:D

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/imagejpg2_zpsc0e0dc06.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/imagejpg1_zpsb873ac73.jpg

Image Credit : MOD RAF

I see that cardboard honeycomb 'crush' packing is still in use ... simple, economic and effective ... Drag will be pleased ;)

[smujsmith]

Seconded Coff,

Well done chaps, you are the spearhead of a long tradition, as this thread testifies. I'm sure we all wish you good missions and a safe return.

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
that simple 'crush' packing had a posh name. Energy Dissipating Material (EDM). But whatever we call it it works. Looks like the US type A22 or something similar. I wonder who is running the DZ.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0016_zps024300eb.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0016_zps024300eb.jpg.html)

Pic taken at Akrotiri. No doubt the relief airdrop 'J' will be staging through there.

[kaitakbowler]

AA62, when on OP Bushell I seem to recall the Hercs collecting this EDM (or something similar) from AKR on a weekly run, it being manufactured in 48Cyp Workshops.

PM

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/MALMRAGGDESPATCHINGPARAS_zpsf6411a4e.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/MALMRAGGDESPATCHINGPARAS_zpsf6411a4e.jpg.html)

Pic of the day. An inside shot with a difference. Could almost be a caption competition. Myself despatching paras. The paras were on garrison duty in Berlin so to keep them current we used to pick them up and drop them in West Germany. They wanted some publicity pics and had authorisation to bring a professional photographer. He was using a large flash system which blinded me first time . So we agreed he would use a small pilot light to indicate when the main flash was about to go off. I would then close my eyes for the instant it took the main flash to fire. He got his pics and I saved my vision !
My caption is MALMs can do it with their eyes closed !

[initials]

Hi guys, enjoying reading your thread and was reminded of another regular Herc destination..... Benbecula in 84 or 85, and just back from another relief drop somewhere?
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr20/blackbox1994/Benbecula/ben24a.jpg

[smujsmith]

Initials,

Great picture of a lovely place to visit on a sunny day, beautiful scenery. I see 295 is yet to acquire a refuelling probe in this shot. I always believed they all had them just after the Falklands conflict.

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ... How about ...

"Get your Boot off my Bl00dy toe Soldier" ;)

[CoffmanStarter]

By the way ...

I know there is another thread running in respect of our current Herc J Force ops into Sinjar ... But I understand that the yellow containers in the pic I posted at #1093 are in fact Drinking Water Containers. Apparently designed to withstand drop impacts and once the contents have been consumed ... the receptacle can then be used to filter further water for drinking. Now that seems more practical than dropping standard PET bottles ... even if more expensive :D

[CoffmanStarter]

I've just noticed that the MOD has just released video of Drop 3 over Sinjar last night (presumably Drop 2 was the one aborted over DZ safety concerns on the ground).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=touVcoF5LQo

Very impressive :ok:

So a genuine question ... How much more of a challenge was doing night drops say 20/30 years ago without the benefit of NVG and other tech wonders both from the flight deck and down the back ?

For those interested Drop 1 footage is also on YouTube (search : Defence News)

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
boot on the foot was not the danger. Getting the static line strop in the face was. Especially for the taller chaps. Oh and being dragged out of the door if you tried to stop an op jump. You can see this is a training jump as the paras are not lugging weapons containers. So everything is nice and slow(ish) !

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
I did some very early NVG trials and the kit was very cumbersome to use and also gave tunnel vision. One of the pilots had to be NVG free for safety. I expect that the modern kit is much improved. I recommended that the ALM did not need it 'down the back' as we always dimmed the lights to red during the 'prepare for action' stage. This allowed your vision to adjust before the exiting bit. We found the DZs at night with difficulty ! The homing radio aids available were about as 'good' as they were at Arnhem. My log book is littered with ' DZ Homing Trials'.
For strip landings at night vehicle headlights could be used and sometimes the troops held torches at the touchdown point. No doubt some of the ex SF drivers etc may be able to comment in more detail.
I have no knowledge of the current state of play.

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks AA62 :ok:

[smujsmith]

AA62,

I'm certainly no SF Waller, being a humble GE, but I know that the introduction of the SCINS (Special Configuration Inertial Nav System) which was a blend of Satellite and Inertial Nav systems introduced in the run up to GW1, did a grand job of putting us on strip thresholds, at night on NVG. Obviously, some skill was required from both the two winged master race, and the wizard of Oz to the right hand side. I experienced many infils and exfils, in, from my point of view, the pitch dark. Very impressive. I doubt I have given any classified info away here, after all, that was around 25 years ago, things have moved on. Like you, I would love to hear from the people who successfully operated it, and later developments, where legal.

Smudge:ok:

[Mal Drop]

As I recall we didn't have the SCINS (or HINS) fit until quite a while after GW1. A few frames had a Litton IN platform (I was one of those qualified to use it for the post-GW1 flypast of London that was cancelled due to weather). During GW1 there was an in-theatre 'quick fit' of a LORAN procured from the light aircraft GA world (the oscilloscope-based 'make a fish' device was in chocolate teapot territory). I remember wandering onto the flight deck, seeing a novelty item bolted under my radar repeater and a manual the thickness of a telephone directory on the desk with a note sellotaped to the front saying 'Nav - Please Read'.

The only viable conversion to the new unit was driving to the airfield during 'down time', getting the aircraft powered up and learning how to use it. It soon transpired that it was a great piece of kit for finding desert LZs and getting into Kuwait Intl through the oil-fire smoke, but putting in all the information via the single twist control took an age and the Nav had the only read-out. The other snag that manifested itself was that the budget model had been bought and the rate-aiding ran out of steam above about 170 kts. The result was that when it lost lock the aircraft had to be slowed while it had a bit of a think...

[smujsmith]

MalDrop,

As one of two GEs deployed throughout December 1990 to "the Gulf" with a 47SF crew, I can assure you that XV205 had the SCINS fit as we deployed. The other GE was an Avionics man by trade and had done a quick course on the kit before deployment, I received an "in theatre" briefing on how to test it and how to fix it from him. This included some input from our Nav, who was a wizzard with the kit. I remember phrases like "ring laser gyro"and "system blending" etc, all too far in the past for my memory to retrieve. In 1991, after GW1 I remember doing a trip on a Deci Schedule with a 30 Squadron crew, using XV205 for some reason. The first half of the trip was spent with the SCINS turned off, but the Nav decided to have a play on the leg north back to Germany. For once, I was found to be of some use as I still had my notes from GW1 and a memory for getting it set up. I doubt it was that useful for a Deci Sched, it was certainly very useful in the desert. I remember rumours about hand held satnavs etc throughout the conflict, but never came across them.

Smudge:ok:

[chickenlover]

Smuj and all,
I suspect the whole matter will be confused by memories and perceptions of when the war started etc. I was out there pretty early in 200 on 03rd August and it was not fitted with any kit. Stayed for a while and RTB'd to restock. I'm pretty certain when I went back on Sept 26th in 'Terry" (206) it was fitted with a trimble or some nautical GPS bought with Army petty cash from Shoreham flying club. One of the Navs and one of the Cos went down to buy it, possibly in a helicopter that looked like it was in the AA :cool: It was connected to an aerial in the cupola with 3 bent coat hangers. I think thats all we had until December. My logbook shows a SCNS trial in 179 on 28 Nov. The 'big push' in Dec had 4/5 a/c in theatre and I think 2 of them had SCNS fitted. The whole saga was like a continuation of the Op Corporate 'get it done' mentality. The bike-pump chaff dispenser was a piece of Wizardry. Bear in mind, it wasn't long before this we were still lobbing chaff out in sick bags at 'Flag'. I jest not. I hope somebody somewhere has the facts accurately recorded, rather than my hazy memories. It will make a ripping yarn.
To put all this in perspective, I've been lucky enough to recently have a beer/coffee/chat with 4 of the 47 Sqn DFC winners from the recent period. I hope its not 30 years till we hear about them here. To misuse a Crocodile Dundee quote -" now THATS a story..."
Night all

[Mal Drop]

Pretty sure that XV205 had a Litton Inertial Navigation System, as mentioned I flew it (alongside an OCU Nav) for the GW1 flyby practices and on the weather-cancelled actual day of 21 June 1991 (according to my logbook the Captain was OC 242). As an IN platform it had Ring Laser Gyros and I still have the notes on firing it up somewhere.

For a while Navs could go to Ops and sign out the hand-held PLGRs which operated from an aerial deployed through the periscope sextant housing. Those were the days when the US military limited the availability of precision-acquisition codes to certain accredited operators (of which the RAF was one) and before the opening of the system to wider use. Chickenlover may even remember me using my own hand-held GPS to decipher some US reporting points on the way back from Guyana to Charleston via Rosie Roads (24 Nov 97).

Whilst flying in GW1 during the period immediately after 16 Jan there was some chat amongst the Riyadh-based crews about putting tinfoil strips behind the air-deflectors for a single-shot chaff dispenser but I found the locally procured Bacofoil more useful to make hats with.

As has been said, memories can be suspect but I'm reasonably sure of my recollections as I was operating the kit.

[smujsmith]

Chickenlover and MalDrop,

Thanks for that both, and I agree, memory can be a funny thing. Perhaps for some reason at the time we (the GEs) just called it SCINS. I do know that it seemed to do the job adequately, getting us in to strips quite nicely at night. Perhaps more recognition should be given to the Navs prowess, somehow though Indoubt they needed it:eek:

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Mal Drop,
when I did the HEART job the HINS fit was way behind schedule. We interviewed the chap 'running' the program and he was not bothered at all.
It appeared that MOD had given the GPS/INS bits to different firms and no one was accountable for the subsequent delay. Each blamed the other !
I remember the big yellow 'brick' that masqueraded as a GPS . I think they were designed for tanks.
It is oft forgotten that it was not really until GW1 that MOD woke up to the fact that for the SF crews to operate effectively they badly needed some decent kit.
This of course harks back to how the SF Flight was set up in the first place.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0006_zps623f658a.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0006_zps623f658a.jpg.html)

Pic of the day, another inside job.

[nimbev]

AA62
This of course harks back to how the SF Flight was set up in the first place. I am showing just how much I am out of touch with the truckie world now - when did the Herc squadrons split roles? When I left Hercs end 1971 all the squadrons did everything and tactical training was done in the last 4 weeks of the OCU for all crews.

[DCThumb]

SF aircraft had SCNS during GW1. HINS was a slightly different fit as I recall, although if could be wrong! Litton/Plgr was also about towards the end I think, although not with the sextant mount aerial - I seem to recall some sort of bungee cord mounting on the upper side window!

[ancientaviator62]

Nimbev,
a good question! I think it must have been in the late 1970's, before Op Corporate. Someone no doubt will have the definitive answer. The airdrop task diminished as the airborne forces were reduced and there was only enough TS left to keep two squadrons current.

[ancientaviator62]

DC,
yes the HINS was long overdue updated Nav fit for all the 'K's. the SCNS was an SF specific fit.

[CoffmanStarter]

Gents ... More fascinating insights into your Truckie world ... Many thanks :ok:

The RAF has a long history of ingenuity and practical application when it comes to problem solving given an operational need or imperative ... but it seems you guys had more than your fair share of operational challenges ... but I guess that comes with the wide variety of tasking undertaken by the Herc fleet.

Anyway ...

The bike-pump chaff dispenser was a piece of Wizardry. Bear in mind, it wasn't long before this we were still lobbing chaff out in sick bags at 'Flag'. I jest not. I hope somebody somewhere has the facts accurately recorded, rather than my hazy memories. It will make a ripping yarn.

Now that sounds as if a F/L Heath Robinson had a hand in the design :eek:

Hopefully someone will oblige and entertain us all :ok:

In the early 80's I had a very brief intro/go (in the Finningley Nav Sim) with the then TANS Platform ... at the time I seem to recall someone saying that it was to be the "standard" Tactical Air Nav System for RAF Helicopters and Transports. I believe it was fitted to the Puma ... but it sounds like it never made it to the Herc ? Presumably Mil spec GPS/more advanced INS overtook TANS ?

[Mal Drop]

TANS was part of the standard Dominie fit at Finningley so a generation of Navs used it during training but I also recall that it was mainly a Helo fit. When I joined the Herc in the late 80s, Decca was just on the way out; Omega (a VLF system with a submarine provenance) was the global(ish) kit and accurate to a mile or so; the LORAN ADL61 ('make a fish') was a primary transatlantic nav kit along with the sextant and the whole shebang was displayed on ball/disc resolver along and across twin-channel mechanical readouts which ran from the C12 compasses and the Decca Doppler 62M. The along and across readout (which could be coupled to the autopilot as the source of endless hours of fun with 'voice-controlled flying' for crew amusement at the expense of flight deck visitors) could also run on expanded mode for greater accuracy on airdrops. As back-up there was also a Lat/Long mechanical computer which could also be used for Grid and Griv navigation but that piece of kit was not exactly sparkling when it came to accuracy and had to be manually updated on a regular basis.

In the good old days the Nav would be lucky to find time to stuff down a Mars Bar on a transatlantic route while he played 'One Man and His Dog' with all the bits of kit nav and did Astro calculations to see where the aircraft had probably/possibly been on its adventures. Changing LORAN C chains could also be a leap of faith with no guarantee that once the fading signal had been given up, a new one would be found.

I have huge respect for the fairies who used to keep the airborne annexes of the Science Museum running and always used to visit them in their hangar of wonders to do the tech debrief post-flight when we brought Albert home.

[chickenlover]

Thought these may be of interest - apologies for the poor quality, they are screen grabs from an old VHS video.
First up -inverted 'L' dz markings through the goggs
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/InvL_zpseb24cfd1.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/InvL_zpseb24cfd1.jpg.html)

LZ / strip through the goggs - usual markings were 'box plus 1' or 'box plus 2'- the box was a touchdown zone -(500 ft ?) plus 1 or 2 lights at the far end-could be horribly disorientating during the final approach.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/strip_zps807a43e0.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/strip_zps807a43e0.jpg.html)

The flight badge - the 3 white splodges represent the inverted 'L' from pic 1

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/fox_zps53f74af5.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/fox_zps53f74af5.jpg.html)

[chickenlover]

Haha-Mr Mal D -was that the one where it ran out of batteries and we had to do a PA to see if anyone had any spares ?

[Mal Drop]

It was the trip working up Gladys as Captain when we met one of his brothers who was doing a bit of freelance work at our destination. I seem to recall making the crew bus stop at a village so I could buy some chilies of certain death from a bloke in the marketplace and then slowly introducing them into my in-flight rations. We ended up using my GPS because ATC cleared us to a place that wasn't on any of the charts we carried.

[chickenlover]

I do recall-happy days indeed.

[ancientaviator62]

Mal Drop,
and the black art of re racking the Doppler boxes to persuade it to work !

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Mal Drop for the clarification ... DECCA ... Would that have been Moving Map DECCA ... talk about steam driven technology if it was :eek:

[ExAscoteer]

TANS (Tactical Air Navigation System) was indeed a Helicopter system that was fitted to the Dominie (as well as Sea King and Navy Lynx amongst others).

Quintessentially it was an air data computer with a Doppler Radar feed and a True Air Speed feed (hence the lage 'temperature bulb' on the starboard side of the Dominie's nose) that replaced the earlier 'steam driven' mechanical GPI from the early '80s onwards. It gave a digital read out of the aircraft's position.

Unfortuanately, in the Dominie, it was only as good as the Doppler feed (from the Vucan Mk I which had a drift rate of around 2-3 miles per hour) exacerbated by the Student's interpretation of the Ecko 190 radar.

It was replaced with an all digital system (and colour radar) during the Dominie Avionics Upgrade of the mid '90s.

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks ExA :ok:

[Mal Drop]

The closest we got to having a moving map was if I drew a picture of a sad kitten on it.

On one Cyprus double-header (AKT-LYN-AKT on the build-up to GW1 extended crew duty day of 21-hours which yielded in excess of 140 flying hours a month for some lucky souls), I was given a very Paddington Bear stare when I decided to festoon the Nav Station with paper chains made out of out-of-date charts. Using the Nav curtain as a Jedi cloak also lost its novelty when done for the umpteenth time flying into another yet another gritty-red-eyed sunrise somewhere over Crete...

[nimbev]

talk about steam driven technology

In 1967/8 the nav kit in the Herc was actually quite advanced - certainly space age in comparison to the Beverley. We kept the US C12 compass system, (possibly as would have been just too complex to change out, although more likely because UK didnt have anything remotely as good) and replaced the majority of the nav fit with UK products.

The Decca doppler 62M was fine, and fed 9476 and 9478 series solid state computers. These computers used Hybrid technology ie 'Analogue using Digital techniques' as the manuals described it. They were a vast improvement on the GPI 4 which was a real analogue device full of ball and cone resolvers and in use by much of the RAF at the time.

[Mal Drop]

There was a lot to be said for the 'old school' techniques we were still taught at Nav Training in the 80s. When I graduated I could have taken a Lancaster to any target in Germany but would not have recognized a Tornado parked-up on the ASP even if given a snazzy BAE Systems brochure and with a chap walking behind me shouting 'it's the pointy one without props' through a megaphone.

[smujsmith]

AA62 # 1125,

Re racking the Doppler ? As I recall many times a pull of the boxes (particularly the F comp) and a swift "drop test" on the galley floor usually made the Nav a "happy chappy" again. From a GEs point of view Omega never went wrong, if it did, no fix was available, Loran was, well, loran, and the advent of satnav etc must have been a real bonus for the Navs. Despite the fact that it ultimately led to their demise on Albert. One thing I do know is that all involved on the 'K' did their very best to make it all work, and sometimes made it work 'despite' shortcomings. From a GE point of view a "buggers muddle", but strangely well tamed by the Nav fraternity. Respect as they say.

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Would I be correct in assuming that this is the DECCA Doppler 62 Controller ?

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/imagejpg1_zpsd9a373eb.jpg

PS. If it is ... It's not me holding it ... right ;) ... But a guy on YouTube who has an interest in doing video "Tear Downs" on antique Nav kit to see how it works :eek:

And if you have the constitution ... here is the link to the video :8

https://youtube.com/watch?v=fcoR8plMMK8

[smujsmith]

oh Dear Coff,

I rather suspect you may have to await a reply while ex K Navs change their underwear:ok:

My introduction to OP Granby:

On 16 Aug 1990, as we arrived at AKR, en route to UK, with a load recovering kit from a previous deployment in Nairobi, we were stopped, offloaded , reloaded and sent off to I believe Dharhan, where the mightiest airlift I had seen in my life was underway. While we were being offloaded, a Kiwi Albert arrived next to us, and their Captain came over and said hello, with the chuckle inducing question "I don't suppose O'Meagan is your Captain?". On re arriving at AKR my crew was cleared to return to LYN, whilst I was detailed with another GE to "pick up" frames headed into the Gulf, and get off them again at AKR. I spent a month doing that from my records accumulating some serious hammock hours. That was useful as TASF Akrotiri required us to support them when we weren't doing trips East, and we had a deal with the VC10 GEs to give them some help when available. All in all an interesting, if tiring time. Despite the fact that GW1 was the premature end of my career, I can't help but think that for the Herc fleet, many improvements in operating techniques and Nav kit were hastened and proved useful. Certainly, I for one learned the value of team spirit, camaraderie, call it what you will.

Smudge:ok:

[Mal Drop]

That's the along and across display (at one time our primary readout driven by the C12 gyro-magnetic compasses and the 62M Doppler). I think it's also Miss August in my K Nav Playmate of the Month calendar from 1992.

[smujsmith]

See what I mean Coff ? Pure porn to the directional fraternity :sad:

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Mal Drop ...

I think it's also Miss August in my K Nav Playmate of the Month calendar from 1992.

:D:D:D:D

[ExAscoteer]

Oh Gawd Coff, NOW you've done it!

All we'll get out of SODCAT now is baby like gurgling!

[Willard Whyte]

I rather suspect you may have to await a reply while ex K Navs change their underwear

Not really, ~20 years later I still have an indent on my forefinger from winding on 300+ nm every hour or so during pond crossings*.

*unless of course substantial headwinds necessitated reporting points every 5° longitude.

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
we had the Decca moving map bit when we first got the Herc. One of my early pics shows it perched on the top of the panel. Prone to lane jumping etc and not a lot of use for blind dropping as we discovered. Soon dispensed with.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0019_zps03a3aecc.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0019_zps03a3aecc.jpg.html)

No prizes for guessing where this was taken. During GW1. But what are we doing here ? Well we are picking up boxes of KD made in Morocco ! Most of the UK stocks of KD and the like had been sold off during the trashing of the MUs etc during one of the never ending defence reviews(how many times can you use the 'peace dividend' ?) It had been sold to IRAQ ! Naturally the UK clothing industry had gone off KD production so Morocco was the easiest place to get it.
It was brought across the straits, checked for 'nasties' and flown out to the Middle East. I am still waiting for my lightweight flying overall.

[Mal Drop]

As we deployed with gro-bags and DPM configured for the envisaged war on the German plains, the standing joke for early parts of GW1 was:

What do you call a group of British troops in the desert?

An Oasis.

When desert combat clothing finally started being issued, several crews decided they would wear it. My skipper said no for the massively valid reason that if we had an incident requiring ground evacuation, he wanted the passengers to know who to follow. Questions about flame-retardant properties were rather moot at that stage as after a few months in theatre and being washed daily using local dhobi dust (with added sand), I could read a newspaper through my coverall.

AA62 - Didn't know about the early moving map fit - this has been a great thread for filling in my Herc knowledge with some very experienced operators posting excellent information!

[ancientaviator62]

Mal Drop,
the moving map display can be seen in my pic on post 37.
As you say this is a great thread and we all are learning about the 'K'.

[CoffmanStarter]

Good morning Gents ... sorry for being late on parade, but Mrs Coff has had me packing for our hols next week :)

Great fun last night with the Nav kit Mal Drop :ok:

We've had pics of the Herc Flight Deck, Hold and Exterior ... so I thought it was about time we had a look at the Nav's Station ... in the hope that will prompt further stories and reminicisances ;)

I had a quick search and found this pic of XV208 "Snoopy" Nav's Station to get us started ... which, as we all know, is a converted C-130 K. I guess the Nav pictured will be known on here ... if not a PPRuNe Member ... so I won't publicise his name (I hope he doesn't mind). Surprise surprise it looks like the DECCA Doppler 62 is being used !

Hopefully someone would like to give us a "walk-a-round" the Desk :8

I'm assuming that Snoopy's Nav Station was close to the standard K config ?

MORE Nav Station pics if we can please ...

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/ScreenShot2014-08-14at102822_zps36a0fd59.png

PS. This pic (originally posted 2008) is part of a fascinating InterWeb piece on Air Navigation by the chap in the pic above :D

Best ...

Coff.

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ... Great pic !

I am still waiting for my lightweight flying overall.

Be careful what you wish for :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
did get the desert boots via Bata ! They have only just been retired from their secondary duty-gardening.

[NutLoose]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/BILLTHEHERCCO_zps40029f8c.jpg


Mal Drop,
the moving map display can be seen in my pic on post 37.
As you say this is a great thread and we all are learning about the 'K'.



It seems an improvement over the Puma one where you had to cut up charts and then insert them into the frame.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0020_zpsd0bd8c7b.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0020_zpsd0bd8c7b.jpg.html)

Al Jubail as very much a work in progress. The tracked 'dozer you can see is where we hid when a Scud alert was called. That was on 18 Jan 1991.
First trip in support of Op Granby was Aug 12 1990. It was 'kin hot in Thumrait and Riyadh ! On Oct 30 1990 in XV 304 we were the first RAF a/c of the main detachment at Riyadh. When we landed the Saudis claimed to know nothing about us coming. We actually had to contact the Embassy on HF for them to sort it out !
I still have my detachment warning notice.

[Mal Drop]

Free eyesight test.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/photoboris/Aircraft/NavStation_zpsffa611ea.jpg

[ExAscoteer]

Wasn't it Ecko 290 on Albert and 190 on the Dom?

The difference being the scan sweep?

[Mal Drop]

You could well be correct, I was notoriously bad at the wiggly amps side of ground cats but could use the kit if guided to the aircraft and shown where to sit.

[ancientaviator62]

ExAscoteer,
yes ECHO (E.K.COLE) 290 on the Herc whose serviceability in later years left a lot to be desired.

[dragartist]

Been abscent for a week.(Coff signed my leave chit) Interesting to see how things have developed on the thread.

TT is spot on with the 250ft over the lake without a viable reserve.

AA62 - interesting to hear of the Troops following with the TROC and the HSP/MSP explanation- spot on. The HSP rig in the pic was the Diesel version of the CVRT which would have been known as the Scorpion (I think they were built by ALVIS in Coventry (Not too sure of that). Up armour and the heavier engine put them out of MSP scope. The thust was to have a common fuel on the battlefield. (and at sea) - we were playing with Diesel engine RIBs at the same time - Save that for another time.

Good old EDM or Dufelite. When I get my own laptop back from the menders I will upload a pic of the HV stuff we did with 26ft Ringslots onto Everliegh. With the high rate of decent several layers were used giving a high CoG.

The US use pre made up honeycomb in a factory set up to provide work for veterans (Lighthouse) along the lines of Remploy. UK buy it in logs which the AD guys pull and glue top and bottom sheets. Not very consisent and very labour intensive. They asked for some US stuff. It cost more to get it to theatre than the stuff cost to buy. The AD guys were quite resorsfull and "borrowed" stuff from the US team (it was stiffer than ours)

AA62 used the term A22 - that descibed the US 48 x48 container (basically a 1" plywood board and a webbing net). The UK nets are knotless Polyester.

We did have some 70" high ones that apear to be the ones being used on the J for the water supplies in Iraq at the moment. I do wander what chutes they are using. As AA62 previously remarked about clothing being made from the pink and blue 28ft utilities. I think the SC15 stuff may be a bit rough but not as rough as the US Low Cost ones they are using at the moment for almost everything.

Great to see the Js doing a grand job. The RAF appear to get the plaudits but it is joint effort with the Army lads. I recognise some of them in the pics.

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Mal Drop ... All clear without the aid of 20/20 vision ... which went many years ago :(

I'm not that familiar with LORAN ... so guess what's on tonights homework agenda :8

Welcome back Drag ... Hope you had a good break old chap :)

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0014_zps606e309a.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0014_zps606e309a.jpg.html)

Our crew (the Eng took the pic) 'somewhere in the middle east' during our Granby detachment. The hawk eyed amongst you will note my blatant product placement of my Bata bondu boots. Now where did I put that Bata contract ?

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ...

Having seen other pics of you on this thread ... forget product placement ... that red towelling flying scarf of yours could tell a few tales I'll bet :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
my lawyer will be in touch ! Yes that scarf keeps appearing in my pics. I confess that until I started posting these pics I had not noticed ! I think I got my money's worth from a cheap Amah's Market towel.

[CoffmanStarter]

Come on Smudge ... Mrs Smudge must have found that Gunsight pic by now :E

We've also got the promise of the "bike-pump chaff dispenser" story too :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
and where is Brian ?

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ... Brian is probably briefing his Builder ;)

[CoffmanStarter]

Mal Drop ...

I did my homework last night on LORAN ... and in doing so came across a rather interesting publication from DECCA called "Decca Navigator News" dated Sep 1966. Section 6 covers the decision to install LORAN C/A in the RAF Hercules K (amongst others) while Section 10 covers the wider topic of Hyperbolic Navigation.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/ScreenShot2014-08-15at133622_zps4ca88c46.png

Actually a very interesting read ... and thought you might be interested :ok:

http://www.deccanavigator.com/pdfs/D_N_News_47_Sep_1966.pdf

Don't worry ... no "wiggly amps" !

Best ...

Coff.

[Mal Drop]

That's some good digging Coff!

That kit shown above (and on page 7 of the linked document) was the old oscilloscope version we used for transatlantic routes. It was all a bit 'black magic' but basically worked around capturing a signal and then locking the third-cycle (the make a fish exercise).

I recall being on a route which grew like topsy and involved us taking fairly long breaks at out-of-the-way USAF bases and occasionally popping back to airfields we thought we were done with. At one stage (having been re-united with my suitcase which had been offloaded on the first flag stop at Lajes by a junior Loadie on a thinly disguised chop ride with STANEVAL), both navs had reverted to the feral state. Whilst waiting for our flight plans back to Lyneham to be accepted, we broke up the monotony of watching episodes of Mr. Rodgers in Flight Planning (it's a beautiful day in the neighbourhood) by having competitions to see who could sprint up the crew steps, fire up the kit and make a fish fastest. The result was a draw as it was subsequently proven that we were both clinically insane.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/GRANBYKIT0004_zpsf8510e25.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/GRANBYKIT0004_zpsf8510e25.jpg.html)

Still with the Op Granby theme. This is the mountain of kit we all had to drag around the route. Not to mention the 9mm and the ammo. No secure storage was arranged for any of it. You may recognise some of the 'usual culprits' !

[Mal Drop]

Two recollections of the Big Green Bag phase of GRANBY.

1. A 30 Sqn Nav who had in a previous incarnation banged out of an F4 had his flying career ended by the effects of manhandling those bloody things on and off Albert.

2. OC 30 (who did not have a big fanbase although I liked him) came up with the bright idea of using folks who were in holding posts to meet the inbound aircraft, do the heavy lifting and storing of the Big Green Bags in a hangar, and to similarly help out when it came to departure. Given the way that the standard TASF/Inflight/Ops/Armoury/Messes mystery bus tours of Novelty Island ate into ground time, it was one of the better cunning plans that I encountered...

[nimbev]

AA62/MalDrop
So what did the Big Green Bags contain?

Coff
I am seriously worried about you - firstly by the amount of time you seem to spend on Pprune, and secondly and more importantly, your choice of reading when you are NOT on this site. :confused::confused::confused:

[Mal Drop]

I think the BGBs were mainly spare NBC ground kit (about three suits, spare respirator canisters etc.) and our AR5 kit (charcoal coverall liners, socks, long-johns, green cloth helmet etc.). The long rectangular bags in AA62s picture are the cases for the actual AR5 respirators. There were also the Combi-pens and a stack of other stuff that would only be needed if the excrement/ventilator interface went fully brown. I can only assume that given the weight of the BGBs we were also supplied with depleted uranium diving boots and a full complement of lucky chain tensioners.

[CoffmanStarter]

Nimbev ... No need to worry about me old chap ... I'm just a tad addicted to crew room banter, good friendships and a smattering of things mil aeronautical ... along with a good measure of humour :ok:

Having been a member of a crew room for some nine years as a young man, on a volunteer basis ... but sadly not good enough to be a RAF Pilot ... sharing the company of some great guys who flew in WWII, the 50's and 60's ... PPRuNe, and threads like this, come close to reliving a very happy time I enjoyed many years ago ... :)

Off on hols next week ... so I won't be around :)

[nimbev]

sadly not good enough to be a RAF Pilot Oh Coff!! I cant believe you said that.... the two winged master race have got big enough egos without you over inflating them:eek::eek:

Anyway I still think that a LORAN manual is NOT suitable bed time reading:=

Have a good holiday:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Nimbev ... Please do forgive me ... Back soon ... Have fun :ok:

[Willard Whyte]

I still remember my first pond crossing on 242 OCU. Found the fish ok, got to the first chain change and did so successfully. A couple of minutes later my screen nav returned to the flight deck (I had not noticed his absence and being an independent sort of chap didn't seek permission to fiddle with my Fisher Price Activity Set) and instructed me to change back to the original chain and imediately change back to the new 'follow the fish'.

Also remember crossing the pond Westbound, only to find no Loran going East a few days later. Seems they switched the bloody thing off whilst we were Stateside. As a true professional I finished my chicken wings close to top of climb and 'read' them on the return leg.

[ancientaviator62]

Mal Drop,
your description of the contents in my pic sums it up nicely. There were no real decontam facilities in theatre and the dragging around of all that junk was pure lip service farce at the very least.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HERCTABLESNAV_zps79c086c3.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HERCTABLESNAV_zps79c086c3.jpg.html)

A real blast from the past. Some very interesting routes in this little publication.
I too will be away until Thursday but no doubt someone can keep the thread going till my next pic.

[smujsmith]

Have a good leave you chaps, in the meantime perhaps we could look at Stations/units that Albert has operated from since its entry to service. My own personal introduction to the C130K came in March 1971 on posting to RAF Colerne, atop Bannerdown Hill. As one of six ex 214 Craft Apprentice entry arrivals I was initially accommodated in a Nissan hut, just down the road from SHQ. It had the standard coke stove, and we took it in turns to keep it fired up through the nights.

Colerne had six C130K second line servicing teams, 4 did Base 2 (minor) servicings and 2 did Base 3 ( major) servicings. As White team, a Base 3 team, had a Flight Sergeant manager called Norman Smith, I was allocated to them, with a rumour being spread that I was his son, resulting in my being a little mistrusted for a while, until all became clear. A Base 3 servicing took around 4 weeks (plus overtime) to complete, and was followed by an airtest. Colerne had its own Air Test Crew under the Captaincy of Sqdn Ldr Whelch during my time. The other names I remember is the Air Engineer, Bert Poulton, who inspired my application for Air Engineer a couple of years later, and the "Air test crew" Loady, Roy Gaunt, who introduced me to gliding with Bannerdown gliding Club, based at Colerne at the time. From a techy point of view, Colerne was hard work, but getting stuck in had its rewards, with the teams always having a great social time, and a sense of belonging. For a young 18 year old lad, just out of Halton, having experienced the Hunter as the advanced Airframe, Albert was a whole new world, apart from its huge size (to me at the time) new words like empennage, snubber valve and falsework all entered my vocabulary, and a sharp learning curve soon brought me up to speed. My Air Eng attempt was in my third year at Colerne, I went through the Biggin Hill system to be told that they felt I was too immature at the time to credibly hold SNCO rank! and would benefit if I re applied in a years time. One year later I was busy enjoying Akrotiri with Kilwhang, and I never gave Air Eng a thought after that, although, he didn't do badly:ooh:

I'm sure many have happy memories of their first association with Albert, its curious that some 27 years later I ended my career as the team manager of Blue team at RAF Lyneham, a direct successor of the Colerne teams. I'm sure there must be some with happy memories of Fairford, Thorney Island and other units associated with Albert over the years. Let's be having you while the aircrew are having a break :eek:

Smudge:ok:

[nimbev]

Smuj

Air Test Crew under the Captaincy of Sqdn Ldr WhelchS/L Whelch was a flight commander when 24 reformed with Hercs. On one of the very early trips we were approaching an airways reporting point at Helgoland when he came out with the classic, 'last time I flew over here I was bombing it'!

[smujsmith]

Nimbev,

And there goes me learning something new again. I never knew he was a WW2 pilot. I had a bit of a thing for flying, and often "volunteered" to be test crew fodder, getting the chance to fly was a real bonus. And that Air test crew were a good bunch to fly with. Thanks for that, I'll put it in the memory banks.

Smudge:ok:

[GreenKnight121]

while the aircrew are having a break :eek:

Yes - suspicious that - all these former Albert aircrew "going out of town until next week" at the same time. ;)

I wonder if a couple of Ks are missing from their "deactivation storage location" as well - "No, Secretary-General Ban, the RAF has no C-130s in that area, and if there are someone's C-130s there they certainly are not crewed by RAF personnel."

:E
:}

Look - are those wild geese flying?

[Brian 48nav]

I'd forgotten we used to get a new copy every 3 months - in fact I'd forgotten them completely! I can remember the ODM Vol 2 that weighed down my nav' bag. Thank goodness we didn't do the Perf' A stuff as well, but IIRC the shiney fleet navs did do the take-off calculations.


CK sends his regards.


Nimbev


Were you one of the 25 crews who trained in the States? I was on 4 Course ( first baby-nav posted to the K from nav' school, though because of holding time there were 4 of us on the course ). From 5 Course onwards the flood gates for first tourists opened. Talking of which, my old mate Arthur and his lady stopped for lunch on their way north. The jammy devil left at 55 having had only one ground tour, which was as a sim' instructor at Thorney where he had to maintain his flying cat' ! To think I left at 8 yr option because I had been given a ground tour.

[smujsmith]

Greenknight,

If only. I now have visions of "flight of the old dog" etc. let's see what they come back and admit to. I'm sure it's one of Beagles Barbies they don't want us all to turn up to.

Smudge:ok:

[nimbev]

Brian
No, I didnt do the Herc course in USA. I must have been after you at Thorney, I cant remember the course number, but we started about Aug 1967 and finished Feb 1968. I then went to 24 which was the second UK sqn to form. As you said, there were lots of baby navs around the Hercs then. We had 24 navs on the sqn and I recon well over half were first tourists.

[Brian 48nav]

Must have been 5 Course, with my mates Arthur C, Des P (?), miserable Mike Wood ( RIP ) as a co-pilot and I guess John 'Prince of Darkness' H.

[Typhoon93]

It will be sad to see the Hercules eventually go, although its replacement looks amazing. I saw the photos on Facebook some weeks back of the first Atlas arriving at RAF Brize Norton.

[smujsmith]

Good point Typhoon, and I suspect you won't get many who disagree. Do you like me see something akin to the Belfast in the new beast ? Perhaps, being an old bloke, its hard not to compare, where youth will always welcome new technology and capability. Let's hope that the successor to Albert lives up to its expectations..

Smudge:ok:

[Typhoon93]

Being honest, I don't know much about the Belfast or its service history so I don't want to comment.

I don't welcome new technology every time, although I'm sure you and others would agree that there comes a time when new aircraft are needed to keep up with the demands of the job and the stresses of operations. The Hercules has been in front line service for a long time now, it's time for something new. I also really like the arrangements of the props on the new Atlas, there's more blades so theoretically (if I have this right) they will generate more thrust while using less fuel so as they can have a longer range before needing to think about landing to refuel or meeting with an airborne tanker for air-to-air refuelling. I also like it how two props turn in one direction while the other two turn in the opposite direction.

[dragartist]

Hey hang on folks - The J remains in service for a few years yet. I think the OSD is 2025 yet some frames will not make that.


The J and K are different in many ways. The K could do things that the (UK) J still can't. I remain impressed by the J flight deck and systems.


I also admit to being optimistic about the A400M. Can't see any similarities to the Belfast though.

[smujsmith]

Drag, Typhoon,

I'm in full agreement with you both. I was fortunate enough to have a trip on a J after accumulating 5000 plus hours on the K. It's certainly a splendid machine and worthy of its fine pedigree. The Belfast was a fine concept, bastardised by political expedience IMHO, and could have been a real success, had some political shyster not had a finger in a well greased pie somewhere:rolleyes: the A400M I'm sure will be a great success, and perhaps that bit of extra capacity and technology might give it a long run as the C130K had, I'm sure those who operate and maintain it will love it as much.

Smudge:ok:

[Typhoon93]

I may be biased, but I do love this image......

Edit: Images don't work for some reason but here is the web page. The images closer to the top are the ones I love.

http://aviationshotzphotography.********.co.uk/2012/11/kc-130j-super-hercules.html

Edit: Links don't work either.

[Descend to What Height?!?]

Coff, there is one bit of special kit on the Snoopy nav station that is missing from your photo. The elephant with the red and white nose. Rumour has it that it was put there when Marshall's did the conversion, and as it was on the blue prints and had a ref number, it could not be removed without design authority say so.

Anyone know where it went when snoopy was demobbed?

[NutLoose]

It went to Marshals to do the A400 engine testing I believe.


Ye Gods

http://s466.photobucket.com/user/aeromaxi/media/lockheed_c130_hercules_tattoo_cargo_melissa_zimmer1.jpg.html



..

[GreenKnight121]

Cargo compartments of Belfast vs A400M:

Short Belfast: Length 25.7 m X width 3.66 m X height 3.66 m = 344.26 m3
Payload: 35,381 kg

A400M: Length 17.71 m X width 4 m X height 3.85 m forward of wing, 4m aft + 5.4 m length on ramp (23.11 m total length) = ~350-360 m3
Payload: 37,000 kg


So A400M is very much a modern Belfast.

[dragartist]

Yes, Snoopy went to MA for A400M engine testing. The long nose was removed and a standard black radome fitted. The red and white nose was laying at the back of the hangar outside. I used to walk by it every day when I had to park in the back car park in 2011. Not sure if it is preserved somewhere.


Odd thing - I saw them fitting it in around 1972/3 when I went on a school trip.


I did some work on snoopy back in the 80s when the aircraft was at Farnborough. I remember the Mod Ctee meeting which approved my mod but spent longer discussing the mod which painted the met office cockerel on the side. I don't recall any embellishments on the Nav Stn.

[Descend to What Height?!?]

Snoopy's nose is on display at the Met Office HQ in Exeter.
The elephant was to the left of the nav station, see if I can dig out a photo.

Understand xv208 has or will soon be scrapped

[ExAscoteer]

I've been told by a colleague who works for Marshall's that Snoopy's wings have been sold to the Austrians.

It's a disgrace that a unique aicraft like Snoopy couldn't be saved.

[ancientaviator62]

Back from my mini hol to Cambridgeshire and will catch up fully later. The BIG difference between the Belfast and the A400M is that the A400 is designed to airdrop men and material whereas the Belfast was not. Makes the presence of an MSP in the cargo hold of the Belfast at Cosford all the more irritating ! IMHO.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/BEVERLEYINLUFTWAFFETORNADO_zpsf5390781.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/BEVERLEYINLUFTWAFFETORNADO_zpsf5390781.jpg.html)

Two a/c for the price of one. Background a/c needs no introduction.
Foreground a/c is a GAF Tornado with Mrs aa explaining to the backseater how it all should work. Taken at one of our 30 Sqn families days. We always had a GAF exchange officer on 30 and they used to arrange for one of the crews at Cottesmore to visit us. They also arranged German beer for our squadron's Oktoberfests. Them were the days !

[Mal Drop]

During GW1 the 30 Sqn German Exchange Officer was not allowed to fly in theatre so during one of my spells back in Blighty I was crewed with him to do the Jersey Airshow (complete with nightstop).

On arrival in Jersey we got to the part of the shutdown checks where the Loadie gets cleared to open the crew door and go outside - our semi-tame German called 'Loadie, you are NOT clear to open the door, please wait'.

Having shutdown as far as possible he then put on his leather flying jacket and forage cap, opened the door himself and announced to the frankly shocked welcoming committee in a heavily teutonic accent 'Ve are back'.

Later, we had a chance to tour the Occupation Museum, those with forces ID got in free but after hearing a few comments about Germans from some of the waiting crowd he opted to just pay rather than start another incident.

By and large we were massively lucky with the personnel who came over from the US, Canada, Germany and Belgium; I got to fly with some real characters.

[smujsmith]

AA62 #1193,

Good point, well made. Even a ground pounder like myself had to wonder about Belfast airdrop capability when visiting Cosford recently. Perhaps they would be better advised to park the Belfast outside, and place Albert in its place, with MSP suitably mounted:eek: for historical accuracy of course, maybe then they could get the props lined up properly again.

Smudge:ok:

[ExAscoteer]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wot he said!

[Vzlet]

Entertaining the anoraks:
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3841/14807716348_dc6ee7eb3f_o.jpg

(And, I'll add my thanks to all of those who have made this one of the more informative and entertaining threads in the forum!)

[ancientaviator62]

Maldrop,
I remember the Jersey incident ! I have told people but they do not believe me. Yes we were very fortunate in the exchange aircrew we had on 30 Sqn. The Belgian Loadmaster (Dirk van L) endeared himself to the ladies at our section Christmas dinners by producing copious amounts of genuine Belgian chocolates.
He was a real pleasure to have on the section.
When OP Corporate was on I think the GAF exchange Nav (Udo S) got as far as ASI before the system showed him the red card. He said where the RAF goes he should go !

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/BILLEXPLAININGLIFEJACKET_zps291614d8.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/BILLEXPLAININGLIFEJACKET_zps291614d8.jpg.html)

This could almost be another caption competition ! I am not taking liberties with the young lady, but merely astounding the audience by my vast knowledge of the LSJ ! Taken on the tanker adjacent to the HDU on one of the 30 Sqn families' days.

[Hempy]

lolol!!! So, was it a B or C cup LSJ AA??? :D

[XV208 SNOOPY]

Vzlet,
and you would not belieive what we were offered for those hats over that weekend at RIAT off the BA hostesses as well a the public.... ;););););)

Still got mine somewhere, and don't we all look young on the photo

[ancientaviator62]

Hempy,
I neglected to say that the lady in question is my daughter and the photo was taken by Mrs aa ! Of course it was not my only LSJ demo of the day but thankfully no evidence remains ! The defence rests m'lud.

[ancientaviator62]

Vzlet,
nice to hear that you are enjoying our very civilised tribute to the 'C130K and those associated with it in whatever capacity. Are there many other 'readers' out there I wonder.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/CHANGIMAP_zps21c9d7ea.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/CHANGIMAP_zps21c9d7ea.jpg.html)

Hopefully this will bring back a few memories. RAF Changi in 1970. How things have changed !

[Davef68]

It's a disgrace that a unique aircraft like Snoopy couldn't be saved.

Do you preserve a unique aircraft or a representative service one?

[500N]

Both if you can. At least those parts of Snoopy that are different.

Bravo November (Chinook) is supposed to be saved, wouldn't that be a unique aircraft ?

[Brian 48nav]

I may have to get on to the 'union' about this - what's a Loadie doing with maps ;) ?


I've got a similar map without the controlled airspace overlay - I drew it in by hand.

[nimbev]

I may have to get on to the 'union' about this - what's a Loadie doing with maps ;) ?

Just like the rest of the crew, probably using them to wrap their sandwiches - wouldn't know what else to do with them:*:*:*

[Davef68]

500N, I'd say both as well (and the contributions XV208 made to meteorological research would have been well served by preservation) but when it comes to a service museum, a representative squadron aircraft is much more significant historically.

'Snoopy' could perhaps have gone to the Science Museum.

'BN' is a representative squadron aircraft - but it's heritage makes it even more important.

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
this loadie had a PPL so at least knew what a map looked like !

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/ASIFLYBY_zps1b129b55.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/ASIFLYBY_zps1b129b55.jpg.html)

Pic of the day but no caption on the back !

[ancientaviator62]

My worry is that the Cosford 'K' will be left to rot outside and then broken up. This happened to the Beverley at Hendon where the museum vandals brought in the scrap merchants.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

On my last visit to Cosford, I made a point of finding someone responsible for the care of their charges and asked a few questions about "our Albert". I wanted to know why having spent years parking the props in a particular way ( for very good technical reasons) they totally ignored it. Health and safety was the reply, if we park the props the way the RAF did, someone might walk in to one. Well, I have a bit of experience in walking around Albert, but I never heard of anyone walking in to a propellor. Walking around the aircraft I noted that the Cap for the SPR connection was left dangling below the closed panel. I corrected that myself. I rather suspect that the arrival of the aircraft gave Cosford publicity, its tenure there depends on its ability to resist Mother Nature. I doubt Cosford cares too much about its fate, it has fulfilled its purpose by creating publicity. Of course, the Belfast, housed indoors with its false display, is far more worthy of preservation.

Smudge

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000131A_zpsf7234c0c.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000131A_zpsf7234c0c.jpg.html)

Another pic from the travels of the 'K'. No prizes for this guessing this one !

[smujsmith]

AA62,

Nice one, this is the same location I believe, some time later. One of my fellow GEs decided he wanted to try a different form of transport. Taken around 1989.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/d6c1776dec1e19ff4f0f8921dbcab787_zps6c66cb62.jpg

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
nice pic. Did not try that myself. I recall sometime in 1978 going to Larnaca (?) just after the ill fated Egyptian commando attempt to release some hostages. We took an RAF salvage team to inspect the Egyptian C130 that was still there. The entire cockpit had disappeared from 245 forwards after a rocket was fired into the cargo compartment by the Cyprus National Guard. Most of the crew were killed. You could see flash burns all down the walls of the cargo compartment. Not a pretty sight.
It was quite sickening walking up the ramp and seeing the devastation.

[camlobe]

AA62,
In response to your post #1204,

Yes.

Never 'on' the mighty K, but had the pleasure on numerous occasions of being transported to various places accompanying our ground equipment. Great service, many thanks.

My only work association with the K was during GW1. The Airships decided we would not carry out our war role as there were sufficient AWACS coverage. So we tried to do our bit in assisting the turnaround and loading of many Hercs at Lossie who seemed to be flying round the clock.

One particular K had a streaming fuel leak under the stbd wing, but the crew accepted the risk and carried on. BZ guys.

Camlobe

[ancientaviator62]

camlobe,
welcome and thank you for the comments. It is readers like yourself who stop this turning into the old lags show ! Been to Lossie many times with the 'K' even when the RN were the tenants.

[CoffmanStarter]

What ho chaps !

I've just returned from holiday ... many thanks to all for keeping our thread fresh and alive :D

I hope to catch-up tonight ... :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

[smujsmith]

Camlobe,

Thanks for your post #1218, as someone who spent most of his Hercules GE career in the back of Albert, like you, I saw what it was like for our customers. As a "rigger" by trade, always enjoyed a bit of banter with fellow tradesmen on Squadron deployments etc, usually delivering a xx Squadron Houchin to Deci, to bring a YY Squadron Houchin back to blighty. I never knew that Houchins only worked on particular squadrons. Always found any old Houchin worked on Albert. Some good times though on OP Granby, where I think all branches of the RAF gave it their best.

Coff,

Welcome back and I'm sure you will find something of interest as you catch up. Hope it was a good time.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000132A_zps1d0b6b54.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000132A_zps1d0b6b54.jpg.html)

Welcome back Coff. Trust you had a nice holiday.
Another pic of the nicest colour scheme (hope I have not posted it before !)
Not sure where it is but the prop line up should please smudge. The ladders are out and it looks like a panel laid on the ground just forward of the mainwheels.
Old style yellow chocks.

[CoffmanStarter]

@ #1187 DTWH?!? ... Welcome to the thread ... The whereabouts of Snoopy's little Elephant friend, with the red and white nose, as been asked about before on PPRuNe ... but to no avail :(

Let's hope he's enjoying comfortable retirement somewhere.

If you have a picture ... it would be great if you could share it with us please :ok:

Vzlet, XV208 Snoopy ... Welcome to you also. I'm guessing ... but I assume both you guys were closely associated with Snoopy ;)

I posted a very interesting paper from the Met Office some while back outlining 70 years of Atmospheric Research Flying ... with quite a lot of material (and pictures) about Snoopy if you are interested ... do you have any stories to share with us given that Snoopy started life as a C-130 K :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/cfba413b-55c9-4e46-b7e9-28e643312d7c_zps0a4f6647.png

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/pdf/5/a/70_years_of_ARF_271112.pdf

Best ...

Coff.

[CoffmanStarter]

Good morning AA62 ... Thanks ... Yes we did ... Now stocked up with some rather nice wines from Languedoc :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Smudge We had a great holiday thanks :ok: ... Hasn't Mrs Smudge found that Gunsight picture yet ;)

Still hoping that someone will come forward with the "Bike-Pump" Chaff Dispenser story :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Just an idea ...

Earlier in our thread there was an amusing tale of a load delivered by Albert out to a Pacific island consisting of a few bags of "Blue Circle Cement" along with one of Armitage Shanks finest "porcelain" products (of the seated variety) along with an assortment of related sanitary fittings ... just in case HRHPC needed a "comfort break" during a Royal Visit (that's what I call effective contingency planning).

Now ... I'm sure there are some other equally amusing tales of weired and wonderful loads delivered by Albert over his 60 years of service ... so who would like to kick-off this little humorous diversion :ok:

Let's leave Self Loading Freight off the Weired & Wonderful list for the moment :\

[ancientaviator62]

Once took two Royal Daimler cars to Gan for HMQ visit. It must have been all of a quarter of a mile from the airhead to the camp ! And of course they came home again.

[ksimboy]

Once carried 3 Sub launched missiles from Prestwick to Navy North , wasn't until I chatted to the guys offloading that I found out they were misfires. Source of great amusement on the flight home imagining the stoppage drills for the sub!

[Wander00]

Coff - 1986, trying to take over buildings at Mt Pleasant and open RAF Mount Pleasant on 1 May. Two banes of my life, sewerage system and central heating in Death Star (not then known as DS). Sewerage we fixed - filtration system built arse about face! Central heating was more difficult. part operated at something like 10 atmos and several 10s of degrees C above normal boiling (a long time ago). The low pressure end was something lower in both pressure and temperature. Where the two joined was some sort of pressure reducing equipment house (right under my bedroom) and if all failed an alarm sounded. call out technician and he changed a penny washer sized bit of plastic. However at one stage we were going through these at a ferocious rate and I had to signal for urgent resupply. They arrived in a small freezer bag in the pocket of a Hercules aircrew.


Just rethought this - on reflection, sorry, not an "Albert" story, but a "Tri*" story. I will go and reheat my Horlicks

[Mal Drop]

Not to do with freight as such but I once woke up in a US hotel room and on switching on the TV was greeted with an American breakfast news programme showing the window of my room at Lyneham Officers' Mess. It was when Terry Waite et al. were released and temporarily housed in the corridor opposite my room.

A slightly weird downroute moment.

[ancientaviator62]

Of course there are always tales of loads that were not carried. The famous snowblower pickup from Sweden. Only to find once they got there it would not fit in the 'K' !

[billynospares]

I cannot reveal the location of said elephant from snoopy but i can confirm it did not go to marshalls with the aeroplane :ok:

[WIDN62]

We used to do a trip in the summer with the Royal Marines and a load of wood for them to maintain their cabins ------- in Norway!!

Going back a few messages, we used to take Landrovers from Germany to Benbecula and the return load was (different) Landrovers.

[smujsmith]

Coff #1225,

That photograph is in my old Nav Bag, which I used to tote around routes with various course notes and diagnostic aids. What is actually missing is the Nav bag. We have had a couple of moves since demob, so are now in a cross oddled state with respect to knowing its location. Mrs Smudge will be on duty in the loft tomorrow, as I can't get up there any more, hopefully a result will be forthcoming. Have no fear, I know I have it, and it will be posted when I find it.


AA62, #1222,

Very smart props, on a very smart aircraft. Seeing the gloss black underbelly just brought a short memory back. In the early 70s I was employed doing Base 3 servicings on Albert at Colerne. One aircraft arrived from 70 Sqd in Cyprus for Base 3, and day one, the whole team is out on the wash bay doing the pre servicing wash (no civilian wash teams in those days). One of the lads, using a standard floor brush to scrub the underside of the aircraft, suddenly shouts for our Chiefy to come and have a look, the head of the brush had disappeared inside the falsework below the SPR panel, in the gloss black area. On checking there was a large hole that had been covered in black electrical bodge tape, for goodness knows how long, that now contained the head of the broom. No mention of this damage was entered in the F700 or any other paperwork. We all had a laugh at how "gash" those blokes in Cyprus seemed. Perhaps someone who is following this thread has an actual memory of how this happened.


Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Smudge ...

Diagnostic aids ...

A whole new seam of material there old chap :ok:

[nimbev]

Remember the little brown packages of medical samples, ie stools, that had to be carried 'by hand of officer' and were invariably signed for and looked after by the co-pilot.

[smujsmith]

Coff,

Diagnostic aids refers of course to the seven Chicken Bones, presented to all GEs on successful completion of the course. The correct throwing, and recognition of patterns resulting, often led to successful rectification of faults down route. As an Airframe trade based GE (Heavy trade) I often found them useful on the Nav snags:rolleyes:

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
your request is stirring some of my remaining memory cells into action again. I will drip feed them as it were.
Once Op Corporate was over we were bringing back lots of kit, much of it Argentinian. I remember radar cabins and various bits of comms kit.
One day the load turned out to be an a/c load of bombs on pallets. They looked very secondhand indeed. Chalked on each one was the inscription' X-ray checked fit to return to UK one flight only' Ummm ! I do not know whether they were ours or Argentinian or why it was necessary to bring them to the UK.
Someone somewhere was going to have 'fun' with them.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0017_zps68e7f50a.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0017_zps68e7f50a.jpg.html)

Just to show that it was not all exotic locations for the 'K' crews !

[ancientaviator62]

WIDN62,
I remember well the 'air experience landrovers' and other bits of kit. Not all of it army by any means.

[CoffmanStarter]

With now over 100,000 hits and over 1,200 individual thread contributions ... It just goes to show how popular good old RAF Albert K was during his service life.

My sincere thanks to everyone who has contributed since my original post ... With particular thanks to AA62 and Smudge for their continued support and interest :D

I'm sure the RAF Albert K story has more to give :ok:

[ExAscoteer]

WIDN62,
I remember well the 'air experience landrovers' and other bits of kit.

Air Experience Land Rovers?

Crikey there were Houchins at Lyneham with more flying hours than me!

[smujsmith]

Coff,

Congratulations on the milestone passed of 1000, thanks for your comment, I'm sure there are many more who have provided more valuable input. As we set off on the next stage I offer a short story of a lad from a Staffordshire farming village, besotted with the magic art of flying.

As I could hardly believe that the Royal Air Force would train me to maintain aircraft (what a risk to take) my posting to Colerne, and employment as a Jnr Tech Airframe Fitter on Albert, was equally astounding. Despite all of Haltons attempts, I could not believe that such a huge chunk of aluminium (not Aluminum) could get airborne. I soon learned to think differently. As I've probably told previously, Colerne was to the C130 fleet in those, early 70s, days that Marshalls of Cambridge later became. We had an Air test crew, some I recall are Sqd Ldr Whelch, the Captain, Bert Poulton, the Flight Engineer, Roy Gaunt, The Loadie. I can't remember the Nav, but I reckon they used to borrow a co pilot as required from a squadron at Lyneham.

As part of a post Base 3 airtest, the crew expected that two of the teams techies attended in person, by experiencing all the worries and concerns one might have when your workmanship is put to the test. I was always one of the first to volunteer to undertake this arduous task, and as a result managed to enjoy many happy hours aloft. Now, at the time, the "airtest" involved an initial departure (I hope the two winged master race can forgive my description), tactical take off, with the Captain making the point on intercom as we rotated " this will see if they put the wing attachment bolts back in properly", I was simply impressed that he knew we had removed them in the first place. A climb to a reasonable altitude, and some playing with engines, ticking the check sheet and we headed back to Colerne, not to land, but to test the pressurisation system. On the way in, MALM Gaunt served up to my co tradesman and myself a very hot coffee and a mouth burning Cornish Pasty. Now, Paddy and I were standing either side of Captain and Co pilot, if you know Albert, you know where, we had no idea what was coming, and with both hands fully occupied, had no way of bracing for what was about to happen. The object of the run in was a high speed pass along the runway followed by a 2G, I believe, pull up and max rate climb abeam the tower. The rate of climb needed to outpace the ability of the outflow valve to control the cabin pressure, allowing the safety valve to function. All I can say is that at some point during the first few thousand feet of climb, I abandoned the coffee and Pasty, and grabbed what I could. Needless to say, our brave Captain ended up wearing them both. Luckily, whilst hot to the mouth, neither were excessively painful to the recipient. To this day I'm convinced that Mr Gaunt had set it up. I was banned from Air tests for three months as a result, and had to clean the flight deck after landing.

I'm sure that if Flight idle still follows these columns "she" will confirm this event, I do know that being able to fly on the air tests from Colerne in those days led to my eventual employment as a C130 Ground Engineer, possibly the pinnacle of a minor, but awesome (or was it woeful) career:rolleyes:

Goodnight all, keep the thread going, as Coff says, there really is more out there.

Smudge:ok:

[Dengue_Dude]

I too was at Colerne on Black Team, flew on Base 3 airtest with the same crew Smuj, then applied and went flight engineer.

The rest is personal history . . . (lot of parallels there old chap) :cool:

[DCThumb]

Once carried 3 Sub launched missiles from Prestwick to Navy North , wasn't until I chatted to the guys offloading that I found out they were misfires. Source of great amusement on the flight home imagining the stoppage drills for the sub!


Ksimboy, seem to remember doing the same, or similar myself....

I also remember telling Tonka pilots that I had more hours flying RB199s than they did!!!

[smujsmith]

Dengue Dude,

There's a coincidence. My next tour, Akrotiri, brought me into the working environment of one Jnr Tech "Kilwhang", who I'm sure you are familiar with? Trust you are well, and wish you the best.

Smudge:ok:

[smujsmith]

I was once one of two Ground Engineers allocated to a crew tasked to Washington DC, ONS, and return. The aircraft was a clear flat floor, had two teams of "muppets" (apologies to the thinner skinned), two of every crew position and four RAF Police guards. We flew out empty, and returned with a "copy" of the "Little Boy" bomb for loan from the Smithsonian to the IWM. Full credit to the "no loan zone" principle (did you see that?), but, the original self destructed some years before, a little simple research might have revealed the real security requirements. Unfortunately, my photograph sitting astride the beast is located alongside my gunsight shot of Albert in my missing Nav bag, if anyone out there knows where it is Helppppppp:eek:

I'm orf for a swing in the hammock now.


Smudge:ok:

[condor17]

Gentlemen and hopefully Ladies , Thank you all for an illuminating and entertaining history . Even as a civvie ; I know it’s the people who make a fleet as well as the a/c .
Luckily it’s been a bank holiday washout enabling all 60 odd pages to be read .
If permissible , may I add a few external stories ?
First impressions were as a lad on a flying scholarship at Cambridge ’71, when my instructor Mr Whittaker abandoned my lesson to airtest an Albert . Disappointment was , I could not go with him .

Spring ’83 , middle of a 16 day BDA – Caribbean shuttle trip . Met up with an Albert crew . Not sure if it was your grobags or Dark ‘n Stormies in BDA police club , or the fact you were young fit 20 some things …… but a Jumbo crew of gurls cheered up immensely !
Date is in my log book ………………
Moving on into my retirement and last impressions of a K …
2 Summers ago on a Dorset hilltop a/d , another washout , studes sent home . Walking across ramp from putting a/c to bed . Looked up to an hum in the East . There in the rain between the trees , all lights blazing , wipers going like the blazes …… this song sprang to mind

‘Bobby thumbed a diesel down just before it rained,
It rode us all the way to New Orleans.
I pulled my harp from and my dirty red bandanna,
I was playing soft while Bobby sang the blues.
Windshield wipers slapping time,

Me and Bobby McGee , Kris Kristofferson 1971..

Not sure if you guys had to work as hard as us ex Highland and Island Parrot [ Budgies big brother , ATP ] drivers [ no hydraulics ] ; but it sure looked as if you were pedalling hard to get the wings rocking as much as they were . As you went past [ not over ] , there was the Loadie doing a star jump in LH para door , could read his name tag … Thanks guys was much appreciated , not least by our gorgeous gurls in Ops . ………….Did you pull up into the clag and go ?
……………………………………………………………………………………….

Nooo , a decent push disappeared you from the 800’ amsl runway down into the Blackmore Vale at 200’ amsl .
Earlier tale mentioned the J is not as capable ….. from an outside perspective ; we agree... The K , would give notice of his coming . The J does not tell us when she’s coming round the mountain [ well hill really ] , and down our chimney pot . Most disappointing as we seem to live on the low level route , to and from the Poole Harbour drop zone . One day I’ll read the notams AND have the camera ready , might even be on top of the hill ; but not at 2300.

Brgds and keep em coming ,

condor

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
my how your baby has grown. It is nice to hear from those not directly associated with the 'K' but who have seen it or flown in it.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000165A_zps6ab4b1ff.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000165A_zps6ab4b1ff.jpg.html)

This pic could almost be another caption competition, as it looks like it will not fit. As always there is an explanation. As the CONDEC loaders aged they became ever more difficult for the very skilful drivers to control. Sometimes the only way to adjust it was to take it up to max height and carefully lower it. Which is what is happening here as they load a low frame training MSP.
The ALM was always responsible for airdrop loading whatever method was used and damage to your a/c could severely damage your career.
I used to brief the CONDEC driver to watch me at all times and if I signaled STOP that's what he was to do ASAP. Any of the loading time could call stop, but only I could initiate proceedings. In all my time on the 'K' this system ensured that I never did have a loader smite the a/c.

[ancientaviator62]

Thought I might have had some comments about the building in pic on post 1239 !
If the walls could but speak.