Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules

[smujsmith]

Nutloose,

This all happened back in the early 90s, and all involved have like myself now left the service. I'm not sure how the law stands these days. I would hope in these more enlightened times, the situation would never arise.

Smudge :ok:

[salad-dodger]

Can Service personnel now get prosecuted for manslaughter such as can happen in Civi street?
Yes.

S-D

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0013_zpsfb70b370.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0013_zpsfb70b370.jpg.html)

Second in the El Adem ME airdrop sequence. 'Load gone' ! We used to have the Lord Trophy competition there in those days.

[ancientaviator62]

I have experienced more than one instance of attempted bullying (a suitable term I think) by various agencies during my service career. As with smudge the answer always was a solid professional knowledge coupled with integrity.
As my experience and rank increased it became easier to deal with this sort of thing, but I always told my 'troops' to report any such attempts to me ASAP and I would deal with it. Once I became a Spec Aircrew S/L (service ceiling, bit of street cred and lots of 'K' experience) I even enjoyed dealing with these people.
Sometimes you would get a phone call asking us to do something. My reply was always to send me a signal. If I learned anything from my law studies it was 'everything in writing'. Telephone calls could so often be 'misunderstood' !
Some of our non Hercules readers may wonder why we trusted our G/E's so much. The answer is they serviced the a/c and then flew with us and thus shared the risks.

[Mal Drop]

I was once instructed by a Wing Commander (eager to impress the Brigadier who was present at the briefing) to extend the Para Cut-off Time on a DZ somewhere hot and not far north of the equator.

The short answer was 'No'.

When pressed, the longer answer was 'No Sir'.

[Doobry Firkin]

I've had some memories rekindled reading this thread, best time of my 23 year career was the time i did on A Line which became 47 / 70 Eng Sqn.

Had some great times down route over the years and got a junior Air Eng some experience in changing a Prop in Bardufoss after it blew it's Gitz seal to pieces and dumped all it's oil. After landing on 3 enignes, oil all over the wing and tail following a call home the words ''just throw some oil in it and we'll get going'' were heard. Being a sooty i said ''No, we need a new prop''. The GE (name escapes me now) was asked for his opinion ''I'm a fairy, he's a sooty, if he says it fu&%£d it's fu&%£d, find a hotel''. First and only time i ever needed a heater to get the seals flexible so we could fit them, -30, snowing, no hanger big enough for the frame and a crane driver who didn't speak english. All part of the fun

Had one where we had to take the overhead panels apart every morning to prove the engine fire warning system worked as the switch was goosed. To get to it we had to drop the overhead panels out of the way to free up the T-handles and test switch panel then jump it, turn power on so we had sirens and flashing lights, kill the poer and rebuild the flightdeck. It was fine at Waddo but rather hot and uncomfortable in Crete and Bahrain.

I'm sure i've got photo's somewhere from MPA, South Georgia, South Sandwich islands i'll do some digging.

Keep the stories coming

[chickenlover]

Todays offering - A day out in town with the' Green Barrows'- chatting with Hatchett at Ken's funeral reminded me of another grand day out. Boss wanted me to go along with the Sqn Barrows Rep and see " what they get up to when you auth them "
There followed some very average formation flying by moi until the proper job got in the seat for the run in and fly through at Buck House.
Taken from the Hawk 'Whipper in' taken on one of the few times I was transiting through the correct position :)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img488_zpsce90735d.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img488_zpsce90735d.jpg.html)
MP back in the driving seat so I could take pictures
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img465_zpsa5685f15.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img465_zpsa5685f15.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img471_zps218b9f62.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img471_zps218b9f62.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img468_zps497b4994.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img468_zps497b4994.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img472_zpsb6842400.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img472_zpsb6842400.jpg.html)
Not my pic-families day break
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img491_zps8f90db53.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img491_zps8f90db53.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

Great pics Chickenlover ... the Families Day Break is a cracker :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

chickenlover,
more great pics, but very green at your flight over London. Did the RIAT at Fairford as a formation including a tanker. We were not allowed to be 'joined up' as I assume you were not. Our drivers airframe thought that joined up to the tanker was the safe option as all the familiar visual cues were present but their airships decreed otherwise.
No doubt the crowd thought we had cocked up !
Pic of our formation.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0005_zpsbc115caa.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0005_zpsbc115caa.jpg.html)

[smujsmith]

Chickenlover, AA62,

Can it get any better? Great shots of the Barrows, something else I never saw, I don't think they carried GEs:rolleyes:

Smudge:ok:

[zetec2]

Just a thought, during heavy (and other) load dropping out of the back of Hercs, Argosy's, Beverly's etc was there ever an occasion when an unauthorised passenger, person, body etc ever get dragged out with the load & go to earth,hang on & survive ?, I spent much time down the back of the Argosy (well secured) during drops & always thought would be so easy to get tangled up in the wires/loads etc that it must have happened during the many millions of loads that were despatched ?.

[smujsmith]

Zetec2,

I've a very good ex GE mate! who I'm hoping will sign up as a PPRUNER, who has a very interesting story along those lines. I won't preempt his arrival, but its a good question.

Smudge:ok:

[Wander00]

As cadets at the Towers in the 60s we never got to see the RAF unless we fixed it. I spent a happy fortnight with 114 Sqn at Benson chucking stuff out of the back of their Argossies (that does not look right).

[zetec2]

Smudge, thanks, I guess our paths may have crossed on Hercs, I spent time in the sheds on Green Team (engine fitter or A/Tech/P for the PC amongst you !) them over on B line before escaping to pastures new & retirement at an old folks home/station in Yorkshire, PH.

[ancientaviator62]

zetec2,
I spent 30 years doing airdrop on Hercs (and a Hastings tour before that)
and despite some tall tales to the contrary I know of no instance where anyone ever went out inadvertently with the heavy drop. For all those drops your drop position was well forward of the load at FS 245 ready to use the extractor parachute emergency release handle should it be required. Had anyone gone out it is doubtful if they would have survived the impact forces on the DZ. If you have ever seen a heavy drop leave the a/c you would understand I think. Despatching paras could be more hazardous as you could be dragged towards the open para door by the rush of the runaway train. Especially if the red light came on and you attempted to stop the stick.
When at JATE did a trial of paras following an MSP out on the same run, but that story will be along a bit later.

[chickenlover]

More formation shenanigans ;

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img462_zps3ffb2fb5.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img462_zps3ffb2fb5.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img477_zps79804d64.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img477_zps79804d64.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img482_zpse139a79d.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img482_zpse139a79d.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img479_zps302f4adc.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img479_zps302f4adc.jpg.html)

One of the more interesting formations I got to lead.....

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img483_zpsf3e720c6.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img483_zpsf3e720c6.jpg.html)

Nice story about Karma for this next one. It was one of my last flights in the RAF. There were 2 civilians I had befriended over the years who had both gone above and beyond in doing nice/ good things for the RAF and specifically the Herc force. They were both really into aircraft and photography. I managed to get them both down to Lyneham and permission to fly them. I told them to bring their cameras but didn't say why. Apparently their faces when we opened the ramp and they saw this gaggle out the back was a picture itself :)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img478_zps787fcf90.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img478_zps787fcf90.jpg.html)

One of the Gents referred to above used to take cracking pictures like this and send them to the crews at Lyneham - literally whilst typing this the nightly TALO pair have just snotted the house on their way south - thanks chaps :) would have made a great picture.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img492_zps938380af.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img492_zps938380af.jpg.html)

Ref the 'falling out' question - during my time there was an apocryphal tale of one of the 47AD lads flying out on his harness during a 'Red Flag' sortie. Allegedly he had the biggest eyes ever on his subsequent retrieval :eek:

[CoffmanStarter]

Simply superb photos Chickenlover ... The F4 through the "Letterbox" in particular :D:D:D:D

[ancientaviator62]

Chickenlover,
more great pics. The 'letterbox' view Coffman refers to was the view from my 'office' on the tanker. Seem to have lost most of those pics especially of the Nimrod. I felt I could just have leaned forward have cleaned his windscreen he looked so close.
Ref the 47 AD chap 'out' on the harness I have no doubt there was more than one close call but not I think under the circumstances in zetec's question.

[ancientaviator62]

Chickenlover,
more great pics. The 'letterbox' view Coffman refers to was the view from my 'office' on the tanker. Seem to have lost most of those pics especially of the Nimrod. I felt I could just have leaned forward have cleaned his windscreen he looked so close.
Ref the 47 AD chap 'out' on the harness I have no doubt there was more than one close call but not I think under the circumstances in zetec's question.

[ancientaviator62]

Chickenlover,
more great pics. The 'letterbox' view Coffman refers to was the view from my 'office' on the tanker. Could get really interesting at times especially if the RX chased the basket or spoked it. Seem to have lost most of those pics especially of the Nimrod. I felt I could just have leaned forward have cleaned his windscreen he looked so close.
Ref the 47 AD chap 'out' on the harness I have no doubt there was more than one close call but not I think under the circumstances in zetec's question.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0004_zps06947371.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0004_zps06947371.jpg.html)

Another pic of our RIAT formation. the agricultural nature of the probe installation can be clearly seen in this pic. Looks like we had a decent day for a change.

[ancientaviator62]

Apologies for the doubling up on the words. Windows has just updated itself and caused a bit of chaos.

[chickenlover]

Nice pic AA62 - I have some of a Nimrod thru the HDU window taken out of Stanley if you would like ?

[ancientaviator62]

chickenlover,
yes please put them up ASAP. Never tanked the Nimrod 'down south' But did so several times in the UK. This thread really has 'taken off' !

[chickenlover]

More AAR / Thru the letterbox shots
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img040_zpsb346c46a.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img040_zpsb346c46a.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img069_zpsfada9b1d.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img069_zpsfada9b1d.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img064_zps1d80e2aa.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img064_zps1d80e2aa.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img067_zps1000f047.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img067_zps1000f047.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img397_zpsfc844518.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img397_zpsfc844518.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img439_zpsc4ee8375.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img439_zpsc4ee8375.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img364_zps9378b336.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img364_zps9378b336.jpg.html)

[ancientaviator62]

chickenlover,
brilliant as ever. When receiving from the Victor we always seemed a long way underneath it and that tailplane made a great sunshade !
I have been on a lot of photo shoots with various agencies, mostly with the ramp and/or the door open. Including doing an air to air with a Hawk as various low vis colour schemes were tried out. Did not seem to make much difference to me.
Perhaps the oddest such trip was the filming for the movie 'Juggernaut'. The MOD rented us out to do this job. It is about a bomb disposal team who parachute onto an airliner to defuse a bomb. The liner hired was the Maxim Gorky, as it was cheap (still the cold war then)! The filming took place up the north of Scotland and the WX was yuk. Once we got there my main job was to see that the POB on the i/b leg was the same as the o/b. I had to have eyes in the back of my head to keep an eye on the cameramen, producer et al. The actual 'jumps' were studio based. As we did the flyby I had to open and close the port para door as required as well as the cargo door.
The producer kept asking us if we could come past lower and slower. Any lower and the altimeter would have read fathoms !
Of course very little of this appeared in the film.
A few months after the trip a bottle of scotch was sent to all the crew involved. I wonder what MOD were paid ?
There was an interesting sequel to this and if someone reminds me I will recount it next time.

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Chickenlover ... Am I correct in assuming the F4 AAR pics were taken over the Falklands ?

[Hempy]

AA, looks like a classic!!

Juggernaut - Official Trailer (http://youtu.be/flBMnHojY9w)

[ancientaviator62]

I have of course substituted the word airliner for liner in my stupidity ! It definitely floated, or floundered in the high sea.

[chickenlover]

A couple of the Nimrod as promised for AA62 and one more F4 thru the letterbox for Coff-yes all the F4 shots are from the FI 83/84

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img550_zpsb3908e30.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img550_zpsb3908e30.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img551_zps298fb04e.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img551_zps298fb04e.jpg.html)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img552_zps09a8ed7c.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img552_zps09a8ed7c.jpg.html)

[DCThumb]

I once did an air-to-air sortie with another Herc that was a photo shoot for Volvo trucks (early 90s). I have a recollection of seeing a poster in a dealership once - has anyone else seen it???

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Chickenlover ... you are a Gent :ok:

We just need either Courtney or Geehovah to pop along now as they may recognise the crew in your last pic :8

[smujsmith]

Love the Nimrod shots Chickenlover, like the F4 and the K a creature now extinct.

Smudge:ok:

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Oh go on then...here are some more letterbox shots.

Falklands Dec 1991

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76196935/scan0271.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76196935/scan0274.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76196935/scan0275.jpg

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

On the same det as above post.

Santiago XMAS Day 1991 after a Comp A

On the way back to MPA



https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76196935/scan0272.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

OTTB ... Many thanks for posting :ok:

RAF Albert as the welcome Bartender :D

[chickenlover]

OTTB
Superb pics - are they from slides ? my prints are deteriorating fast now so I'm rushing to get them thru the scanner.
Cheers

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

OTTB
Superb pics - are they from slides ? my prints are deteriorating fast now so I'm rushing to get them thru the scanner.
Cheers


I think some may be prints and other negs that I scanned into Photoshop and let it do its magic. Just about scanned everything I have now. Colour just doesn't last but at least Photoshop will restore it.

[Bengerman]

Gotta say it, That Nimrod is one Pig Ugly aircraft!

[Xercules]

Ah the great "F4through the hose receptacle window" photos. When I was down there in 86, 1312 must have been the best endowed unit in the Islands because there was almost nothing we could get in exchange for a ride in Albert. Tanking sorties were very popular closely followed by South Georgia runs (these were rarer so did have a more than certain value in the bartering market). Everybody who flew seemed to come back with "great/fantastic/marvellous"pictures of the F4s. The only ones who didn't were the Albert pilots (at least in my case as I wasn't going to let anybody rape my aircraft if I wasn't in the driving seat).

For those who flew them you will recall that the Loadie was your eyes during tanking giving a running commentary on the chicks and where they and what they were doing. During an actual prod this, in a calm voice, was supposed to go something like " he's in the stabilised position - moving forwards, 5 ft, 4 ft, 3 ft, contact, pushing in, holding steady ..." One day OC 23 ( A.. Mc...) was receiving and the commentary went more like "stabilised, moving forward....f... me that was fast" at a very high pitch. Nobody had told A.. Mc... that the reheat gate was loose.

As to trading, I think the currency we used was something like:

1312 Flt Albert print
1312 Flt Albert print signed by the crews
Albert sortie (tanking/S Georgia)

Strangely, MRR sorties were not so popular but we used to have the occasional die hard - I suppose 5 to 7 hours staring at grey sea and multiple jiggers was not everybody's idea of fun.

I assume by later years some fun detector discovered what was going on and passengers on tanking sorties were banned. It was good for morale but probably broke every elfensafety rule there was.

[Hempy]

OTTB
Superb pics - are they from slides ? my prints are deteriorating fast now so I'm rushing to get them thru the scanner.
Cheers


I think some may be prints and other negs that I scanned into Photoshop and let it do its magic. Just about scanned everything I have now. Colour just doesn't last but at least Photoshop will restore it.

In that vein, while we are on the subject, if any poster here would like old photos digitally restored or colour enhanced, PM me and I'll do them for you as payment for the joy of reading this thread. If you have a digital copy I'll work some magic, I have a fair bit of Photoshop experience :)

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k144/h3mpy/85162973-9EE4-432E-9174-A6D6E0A4DD91_zps7cluuqsf.png

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k144/h3mpy/3AC45FA1-DC23-43BB-840A-944290961CFB_zpsdhnikily.png

someone here posted that pic in a thread once :)

[ancientaviator62]

chickenlover,
many thanks for the Nimrod (and the other) pics. Reminds me of the time one 'chased' the basket as the bow wave pushed it up and away. By the time we showed him the red card my voice had risen an octave or two. I think the F4 must be the most photographed a/c through the letterbox.
Pic taken on an airbridge showing the RX before he is cleared in to tank about 5 hrs out from ASI.


http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HERCAIRTOAIR_zpsfd91f185.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HERCAIRTOAIR_zpsfd91f185.jpg.html)

[ancientaviator62]

DCThumb,
I remember the advert. Did you get any pics ?

[ancientaviator62]

Xercules,
yes the fun detectors were ready to spoil everything. I always thought taking those who wanted to fly with us was a very good thing. It was always an eye opener for them especially on tanking and airdrop. Usually did us no harm in subsequent dealings with their various organisations.
I remember at Lyneham we were having a few problems with errors being made on the heavy drop role fit. I arranged with OC Role Equip for some of his workers to fly on the sorties. He came with me first. Everyone who saw a drop came back like Saul on his way to Damascus. The sheer speed, noise and violence of the load departing made them realise that we needed everything to be perfect.
Once took an Eng O on a tanking trip from ASI. It was only a little bit bumpy, but he took to the top bunk and did not stagger down till we back at ASI ! Missed the very thing he had come to watch, the view from my office.

[DCThumb]

AA62 - No, never saw the results of our efforts, other than the passing glimpse in a showroom. Would love to see them if anyone finds them!

[Bts70]

"I arranged with OC Role Equip for some of his workers to fly on the sorties. He came with me first. Everyone who saw a drop came back like Saul on his way to Damascus. The sheer speed, noise and violence of the load departing made them realise that we needed everything to be perfect".


I worked the Role section 92-94 and must admit that whilst fitting a load of scrap metal into Albert was straight forward, some of it didn't`t make sense laid out on the floor until you did get airside and see what it all meant.


Got some fantastic routes back then, you couldn't`t beat a 10 day N American trail that required you to do a 10 minute role change at Calgary then spend the rest of the Route helping the GE & SVC out, good people happy times.

[ancientaviator62]

Bts70,
welcome to the ever expanding 'K' club. Did you ever fly on an airdrop ?
I used to send my newly qualified ALMs to work with Role Equip for a week to get some practical experience and to see the the problems from the other end of the telescope.

[Bts70]

Certainly did, always an eye opener to those who went up first time, especially on the drops when the load was slowly edged in and the realisation set in that that same load would exit the frame at considerably faster speeds in the air with minimal clearance.


When the J/K merge happened I instigated getting some lads up on the K to see the drops, the J lads always cursed the K role fits, the drops far more exiting than the standard J CDS at the time.


Way back then we did a trial fit (correct me if I am wrong) for "mine laying" when we seemed to fill the back end with roller, given the amount of 40 inch we put down there must of been only a small load given the weight of roller involved? we never saw the load as I think the frame went elsewhere to collect it.

[Wander00]

Xercules - may well have flown with you then - finished my MPA/RAF Mt Pleasant tour on 9 May 86 and spent 7 & 8 May (after handover to FNG) in various helicopters and a Hercules. If so, many thanks


W

[ancientaviator62]

Bts70,
glad you enjoyed the sight of the heavy drop leaving the a/c. The mine laying role you refer to was if memory serves, 4G. For those not familiar with the 'K' we had 19 basic role fits but within those 19 was a whole range of sub roles, the 4G one above being an example. All these roles ment lots of toil for the workers. The mine laying role was invented for the 'K' (I know nothing about the 'J' at all) at the time of Op Corporate. The old WW2 bar mines with a restraint shackle welded on top were the ones selected for use. There was so much roller conveyor and side guidance in the fit that the seats could not be fitted and the Air Despatchers 'sat' where they could.
I never did fly on any of the trials but did see the complete installation. I think the idea was that if the Argentine carrier ever looked like leaving port then the harbour approaches would be mined. I leave you to contemplate what the crew would do after the drop !

[smujsmith]

AA62 #794,

Totally agree on giving the workers a trip. My first experience of this was on my posting to Colerne in 71 when I was a lowly Jnr Tech A tech A on White team, doing Base 3 servicing. We had our own Air test crew who always looked for a couple of us who had "taken it apart" to accompany them, I was never slow in volunteering to go. As I recall the Captain (Sqn Ldr Welch ?) took great delight in doing a tactical take off to "see if you put the wing bolts back in correctly". At the time it sounded hairy as hell. ISTR seeing one MSP dispatch in my time at Lyneham, being impressed with the speed it all went out. I'm sure like many techies, the chance to see the beast at work was always welcomed, and appreciated.

Smudge:ok:

[Bts70]

Are any of the operators on here that got bogged down on the strips in Wales / Salisbury plain around 98 and 2009 ish?

[dragartist]

AA62 and Bts70,
I don't recall any clearances to drop mines in my time. I did see what looked like a big blue torpedo described to me as a mine in 47AD Trg Wg. It did have the shackle welded on as AA62 describes - I believed it to be just an artefact belonging to a museum. Not sure if it ever got moved from LYN to BZN.


I do remember attempts to resurrect a role fit with shed loads of rollers which covered the floor all the way to 245. Certainly an ankle breaker. This was developed by JATE sometime in the 90s for free dropping tri-wall boxes containing pouched meals for HUMAID and had also been proposed for dropping Psyops leaflets when the need arose sometime in the early 2000s. It never made it into the RTS on a permanent basis but was held to be issued against any SD where the old JATE report would be dusted down and issued as the authority. (I think they still call them CLEs in new money). However I very much doubt if it would have been signed up in this day and age.


All the rollers were required to support the floppy bottoms of the cardboard boxes. If I recall they were restrained with 1200 lb cord. Cord may have been used to lace up the boxes and tied off to a floor point or anchor cable which when ejected opened the boxes scattering the contents in the breeze. Hence no wood could be used for fear of harming the recipients. Restraint was virtually non existent as it would have been dangerous if not impossible to access over all those rollers to remove it.


We could not do this with the J Roller system. probably another capability we no longer have. Just goes to show the versatility of Skydel. I don't even know if we had clearances for free dropping at all even with CDS baseboards from the J. (no reason why we should not have though)


I used to like doing a bit of hands on and even assisted in an inflight roll change during a transit from AD role to Para along the lines described by AA62 and Bts 70. I still curse AML for all those damn drop nose pins. I know there was thousands of them in the role equipment bay but, FFS they could have done with a squirt of PX 24 and a little attention. the problem was only compounded by bashing them with the only handy thing on the aircraft.- The QR Chain tensioners!

[Bts70]

10K tensioner formed part of the aircraft toolkit but tended to damage the adjacent floor in the hands of a mover (if anyone's offended sorry), my much preferred on board tool was the crash axe at 245.

The drop noses were stiff for a reason as too loose a pin resulted in having to drive the pins through when they "dropped" inside the trans beams. Method in the annoyance you see.

Sorry for the ROLE drift, just another chapter in the mighty K, I used to ask all the new lads to shuffle of and find the first aircraft type that the "scrap metal" was ever fitted to.

[chickenlover]

Right then Smuj - just for you
If this works it should be a short clip from the Lightning day out.
Hope you like it.

veryveryfrighteningindeed - YouTube (http://youtu.be/S0NjvZ0zgEo)

[WE992]

If the pins were put in horizontal rather than vertical then the ends did not drop down!!! - Thus preventing the need to use a tensioner.


For those who disliked the Skydel system on the 'K' it was even worse on the VC10 - fitting the side guidance beams in the door position with cargo pallets in place was always designed to test ones patience.

[smujsmith]

Chickenlover,

What a real treat. Perhaps I've said it before. The over wing tanks take me right back to Akrotiri in 74 when we did a "mini airdex" to Malta. 4 F6s over wing tanks, and a straight trip to Luqa I believe. As Self loading Freight I got a 70 Squadron Albert there, and a 70 Squadron Whistling tit back. Thanks for that sir, you've made an old, bald bloke very happy.

Bts70,

Mention of the chock tensioner brings to mind a story that seemed well known in the fleet in my day. It involved a fly by, somewhere, with ramp and door open when a tensioner came adrift from its stowage. Now, the story I got was that it went through two floors of Air Traffic Control. Anyone know the truth of this ?

We have yet to hear the tales of Pete T, who in my day was something of a legend. I'm sure there are many more. Keep em coming chaps. Does Coff realise what he started here ?

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
I have seen what I believe were (long time ago-no log book entry as a memory jogger) bar mines fitted in the a/c. They were inert but still rolled up to the a/c covered with tarpaulins. Someone must know ! Around that time lots of things were of necessity done without the 'correct' clearances or even accurate recording. Does anyone remember the 'snatch' done by the 'K' before the airfield was opened 'down south' ? If not I will describe when I return in a weeks time.
My tale of the sequel to 'Juggernaut'.
It occurred to someone further up the food chain that if the Juggernaut scenario happened for real and the villians were on the ship then we had no response. Thus the 'K' gunship project was born. You have probably heard how the USAF do it with a dedicated a/c with mucho firepower. We of course did it rather differently. The trial was conducted at Lyneham with airdrop instructors from the OCU. I was supposed to be on the trials but have never been into guns so another ALM instructor did them.
No expense was expended !
The set up was a GPMG mounted on a modified camera mount firing firing out of the port para door. Those who have stood there and gazed out from this opening will appreciate the very real likelehood of shooting off parts of the airframe. Stops were fitted which greatly restricted the field of fire.
I think a couple of sorties were flown and the trial written up.
The intention was that SF would do it on a currency basis but that all foundered on who would fund the extra flying hours and ammunition. So it was pigeonholed.
Many years later a 'new' role appreared in the Aircrew Manual, that of 'Fire Suppression'. Most assumed it was to do with firebombing. When I did the HEART job I spoke to the chap i/c the Herc publication(he also did the VC10)
and explained about the confusion. After tracking down the original report we agreed a better description was that of 'Suppressive Fire'.
I wonder if it has been carried over to the 'J' ?

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0009_zps519b20ac.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0009_zps519b20ac.jpg.html)

From the 'how close would you like me file'. Airbridge tanking.

[Hatchet 130]

Well found chicken lover,

those thirsty chicks were gutted when they realised we weren't a tanker:eek:

[dragartist]

Bts 70. The Skydel drawings I saw went back to 1949. (Blackburn or Trianco??)The last surviving copy of the type record (all the stress calcs) was dated 1953 updated by Hawker Sydney some time in the 60s. I passed this to Boscombe Down for safe keeping when we moved out of Wyton. Not even sure if the DA had a copy so I sent them one too. (no storage space at Shabby Wood). It was at the time when it was identified we had a vertical CoG issue when loading all the side stores onto MSP rigs to get to the magical or mythical 18,000 lbs (8000 and some odd kgs) with or without the main parachutes for the forward load which were on the aft load. The dangers of those responsible not understanding basic mechanics of overturning moments. They bandied about 3g or 1.5g with such confidence that they knew what they were talking about. When we did the sums there was less than 0.5g on some of the piggy back rigs even without the side stores. In a nut shell, the Skydel beams would have failed had the brakes been applied too hard with an MSP or two finishing up in the cockpit. I think we were OK for ballast loads and the ammunition rig but all the others would have needed an OEC to be dropped. Perhaps your pins should have been Grade A parts and certainly not subjected to hitting with a 10K coupling.

[bunta130]

Only tensioner stories that spring to mind are the legendary Pete Tyas, sadly departed, and his antics of placing chains and tensioners in unsuspecting co-pilots' bags down route....the first time they picked them up, after Pete had 'kindly' loaded them on the crewbus was just before Customs clearance...

They were then stuck with rather heavy bags for the nightstop.

Then there was the story of him dispatching SF wearing a blonde wig and tutu.

And the one about the shower down the back, when full of pongoes

And the one (that may have been him or a GE) when he pretended to have been on the roof all the way from Lye to Norway....

And the one 'exploding loadmaster' post eating a Lamb Jalfrezi

Than man was a legend.

So sad that he did not live a full and happy retirement......

He and the late George Brown must me making mischief upstairs.

I keep their names alive by regularly recounting stories....what great times!

What about the one in New Florida 2000 with ML and his white trousers......another 'character', albeit he is still very much around!

Happy to expand on any or all of the above, but the names on this thread must be well aware......!

Cheers

[smujsmith]

Aahh Bunta,

The names always come up, whenever the Albert fleet have a chinwag. Any or all of the great Tyas stories would always be welcome. I always enjoyed the pongoes being drilled in the monsoon, and the Brigadier being involved. Meanwhile, I walk every week with a bloke who plays golf with ML, it appears he is as irascible as ever, and determined to disco his way to the end. Keep em coming.

Smudge:ok:

[dragartist]

Has anyone been able to shed more light on AA62 mines?

[smujsmith]

Dragartist,

I suspect they've all gone off to RIAT. Meanwhile, I was lucky enough to do an SF trip which was an exchange at Hurlbert Field with 8th SOS. Now these boys really are the business and were the chaps who last dropped the Daisy cutters (BLU-82) over Kuwait in GW1, and lost an aircraft in the process. It was a massive bomb, as they explained it, designed to clear an area of forest to provide a helipad. They found it most effective, dropped amongst troop formations, having a similar effect on anyone who was taller than 2 feet. A wiki link for anyone interested.

BLU-82 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLU-82)

Smudge:ok:

[Dougie M]

JATE flying section carried out the first airborne mine delivery once the sequence was developed in 1982. The load was 16 stores in sticks of 4 restrained with chocks, which meant that the AD team had to step over the first stick to release the second etc. There were a number of strops and lines suspended from the para cables. 1 for the drogue and 2 for the arming pins on the 2 fuses on each mine containing 600lbs of Torpex.
Inevitably with this cats cradle one of the despatchers, Pete E******* was carried over the ramp at 100ft over Kilderkin range. He was retrieved with no apparent distress, being as mad as a box of frogs anyway.
The Navy sent down divers to measure the distance between stores on the sea bed and declared that we could mine the Argie ports in three weeks.
This joyous news was received with dismay.

[dragartist]

That's interesting Dougie, I did not go to JATE till mid 90s.


So do I assume the mines were on skid boards and chocked like ME one Tons. AA62 mentions shed loads of Skydel rollers hence my association with the leaflet or MRE tri wall boxes. Perhaps the floor loading demanded more roller.


I thought the blue torpedo in 47 Trg Wg over by the Dak at Lyn was more akin to the US Daisy Cutter despatch method. It looked longer than the aircraft was wide.


Do you know if any of this is documented in the public domain. I have recently been reading Euen Southby Tailyour about Harrys proposed exploits in the South Atlantic. Harry will certainly be at RIAT.


I had several trips to YPG and Laguna Parachute test facility where they still had the trials kit for the Kistler launcher. This was similar to the daisy cutter in concept but much heavier. If I recall correctly it was similar to our PURIBAD concept in that once extracted the payload separated from a Type V platform and did its stuff.


Oddly that project; ran out of Irvin California was manned by Ex UK Air Despatchers probably of the same vintage as your Pete E.


Smudge, Thanks for the info on the Daisy Cutter during GW1. I was unaware of this. My knowledge of the Daisy Cutter was from reading books about Vietnam.


Drag.

[bythebackdoor]

As far as I can remember The mine role was 5g, this is where the modified silver 5g chocks came from. At least thats what I was told many moons ago as a young Air Despatcher.
It was even then, a relic from days gone by.

[bunta130]

Hi Doug......

I remember vividly when you stabbed my headset pad as we depressurised for a drop on JATE.... It had just been for servicing, and the pad was clearly airtight...so as we climbed the cabin, it expanded and dragged itself off of my head.

'Wedge' is at Brize still as a civvie; he's twice the man he used to be!

Cafe Michelle......now there's another story!

Cheers

[CoffmanStarter]

Hatchet 130 ... Did you have any luck with your Blue Canberra pics :ok:

[Hatchet 130]

from the fighter control website,

explains why I couldn't find any photos,

ring any bells chickenlover?

Re: Canberra 40th Anniversary
by andrewn » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:19 pm

Sheff wrote:
Ah yes that was a good day although it was a bit of a disappointment for photography. The RAF got us a Hercules to take some air-to-airs of the Canberras during the morning but the damned thing went u/s after take-off so the sortie was scrubbed and we came straight back to Wyton without so much as a single picture grr!


Interesting as I was going through some of my audio recordings yesterday and this one came up... The Herc crew actually fixed the 'snag' and were VERY keen to fly the sortie, even offering to stay late to accommodate. Unfortunately "Sunray" (the Boss) decided otherwise as the priority was for all the Canberra's to be lined up for the ground photoshoot.

andrewn

Location: Cheshire

[smujsmith]

Hatchet,

There must be some pictures to post somewhere. Meanwhile, anyone remember the Deci Sched ? It has some serious memories for me. Having been accepted for the GEs course in 1988, I then surprisingly got promoted to Chf Tech, and became surplus to requirements for ALSS. So, they put me in charge of ALSS GEs section for a few months. During that time, I managed to convince ATFOC that we were short of GEs and volunteered for various trips, despite not having done the course. Unfortunately, my attempt at a Carribean trainer was repulsed, but they allowed me to do lots of Deci Scheds, and once a Tanker Rotation to MPA. Now, perhaps I'm just sad but the Deci Sched was a great trip for me. Out on Friday morning, through Wildenrath and down to Deci, a steady flight back to Wildenrath for a nightstop and back home on Saturday morning. For someone who was not a GE I enjoyed the chance to have a go, and I'm sure it helped my progress through the course, when I did it. I'm equally sure that I could recite the VOR beacons that were used for the whole trip at one time, but age and dementia take their toll and I struggle these days. I know that the crews who put up with the "pseudo GE" were a good bunch.

Smudge:ok:

[OmegaV6]

Ahh ..... the Deci sched ... if you didn't send someone to the shop to buy either an electric train set or a scalextrix (spelling?) ... your departure clearance always seemed to be delayed !! :)

[Hatchet 130]

Smudger et al,

This thread has really brought it home to me how much I regret not putting the whole crews names in my logbook on decent routes/dets.

I know we've done some great trips together just boogered if I can remember which ones!

Were you with me when the lox trolley went bang in Singapore?

TB.

[smujsmith]

Hatchet 130,

You have me in one sir, I was that GE, along with another initials JH. We diverted in because the LOX was low, specifically to re LOX the aircraft. The LOX cart turned up, towed behind what looked like a small Massey Fergie, and we proceeded to "fill her up". Being unfamiliar with that particular trolley, I suspect I may have failed to re open the pressure raising valve, after the procedure. I've always felt fairly guilty on that. Anyway, as he drove away, the very helpful tractor driver got the shock of his life as the charging hose, or perhaps a safety bursting disc blew, with a bang like a bomb going off. I suspect that if you remember it, we were in close proximity when it happened. ISTR we got out of dodge as quickly as we could. Like you, I failed dismally to record the names of the great teams I had the pleasure of travelling with, I did record all of the flights I did, Squadron and Aircraft number, but little else. I've now lost my record of flights, or I could date precisely the exploding LOX trolley incident. Now I need to work out who TB was:ugh:

Just from memory, a trip coming back from Hong Kong ? Two crews, one of the captains was A***** H*****, who gave up a day off to show me around HK.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Dougie M,
I am just back from my hol and catching up, so thanks for the confirmation that the 'K' minelayer did exist and that my few remaining memory cells do function now and then. As I recall the reason for all the roller conveyor was that there were four side guidance rails across the fuselage and the mines were fitted between them. As Dougie implies it would have been an interesting trip to do it for real.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0027_zps6172eb10.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0027_zps6172eb10.jpg.html)

I thought it was time we looked inside the tanker to see where we kept some of the fuel that our customers needed. We are looking aft from the forward tank, and you can just make out the HDU sitting on the ramp. Anyone who has ever seen inside the tanker was always struck by how 'agricultural' it was. It was a lash up but done in around eight weeks by Marshalls (respect) and was used for over ten years after Op Corporate.
The HDU was the same as that used on the Victor, with mods to suit the Herc.
The internal tanks were Andover ferry tanks x4 each holding approx 7000 lbs of fuel each. To dispense their fuel we first needed to pump it up into the wing tanks. Due to the fact that the hose exited through an aperture in the cargo door was always had to tank depressurised.
A full tanker stood on the pan at approx 20000 lbs overweight.

[NutLoose]

Blimey, they got about, the first ferry tanks we had fitted to the Chinook were Andover items too.

[mmitch]

When the tankers were withdrawn from use I wrote to Marshall's PR, RAF Lynham PR and IWM Duxford suggesting that one should be preserved as a tribute of how the services and industry pulled together to get the job done.
If it had been kept at Duxford perhaps Marshalls would have helped preserve it.
I didn't receive a single reply....!
mmitch.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

What a smashing memory you have posted. As a smoker at the time, my trip ASI to MPA as GE on a tanker rotation, did nothing to alleviate my cravings (I've since quit). Also difficult to locate a decent "pitch" for a hammock. But we got there. As mmitch suggests, perhaps there was not enough enthusiasm to retain one as proof that industry and the military could overcome many challenges.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HERCTANKERINTERNAL_zps74488d57.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HERCTANKERINTERNAL_zps74488d57.jpg.html)

This is the view looking forward. Note the 'token gesture' standard fire ext. on the tanks. The tanks each had to be manually filled by dragging in the fuel line through the para door. It had a cut off just like those at your local petrol station.
They took a long time to fill and sometimes the chap doing the job would wander off and rely on the auto shut off. Which sometimes did not !
No-go item for the tanker was a broom or at least the handle. When the tanks were 'refurbished' the sight gauges were not. They were very difficult to see so the ALMs used the broom handle to dip the tanks.
The first thing the ALM and Air Eng did on arrival at the a/c was to open as many doors and hatches as possible to try to get rid of some of the fuel smell. especially if the a/c had been standing somewhere warm.
Smudge, I did a TX rotation with Colin B. a serial smoker. He smoked on the tanker, but he was such a nice bloke I was happy to accept the very small risk. You should have been with us !
Originally the tanker carried sections of boiler plate just aft of FS245 to help with the C of G. This was later removed and fuel was supposed to be left in the forward tanks as ballast fuel. On one trip we ended up having to use this fuel !

[ExAscoteer]

Smudge, I did a TX rotation with Colin B. a serial smoker. He smoked on the tanker, but he was such a nice bloke I was happy to accept the very small risk.

Ah yes Colin B*****. Airborne, Gear Up, Positive Rate of Climb, Flaps Up, Fag Lit!

He smoked like a bloody chimney but was a real gent to work with.

[ancientaviator62]

Ex Ascoteer,
you have missed out the fags consumed on the crew coach on the way out to the a/c ! As you say an absolute gent.

[dragartist]

We also had a drinker and coined the phrase you are not allowed to smoke 8 hours before flying and drink within 50 yards of the aircraft. There was a fuss when one of our Army Officers refused to fly with him.


He went on to be one of the early J Captains. I met him in the mess at LYN a few times several years later. nothing had changed. he was still the last one out of the bar. Then all of a sudden he disappeared. Rumour had it he ended up behind other bars.

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ... Hope you had a great spot of R&R :ok:

Looking forward to more from your RAF Albert Archive :D

Best regards ...

Coff.

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
very pleasant time away thank you.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0026_zps01dba279.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0026_zps01dba279.jpg.html)

Another pic of the internals of the tanker, showing what the well dressed tanker ALM wore. Visible in the foreground is one of the two seats fitted abeam the para doors for use during SAR tasks.

[Mal Drop]

As a first-tourist-one-stripe-wonder on 30 Sqn I enjoyed several bimbles to places distant with the fine chap pictured above. If that's you AA, then I very much hope that you and yours are all doing well!

[ancientaviator62]

Mal Drop,
guilty as charged m'lud. 'Tis indeed me. I am as well as age will allow and have no reason to complain. Trust you are too.
Best wishes.

[WIDN62]

One morning in Akrotiri (mid 1990s), it came to my attention that there might have been some damage caused to a car the night before. (It was in the way when some people were trying to walk in a straight line from the Sgts Mess to the block!)

To cut a long story short, it turned out to be a car hired by MT for a visitor. I despatched the guilty parties (GPs) off to MT with a slab of beer and told them to get MT to bill them directly for the damage and promise a cheque by return of post. This seemed a good plan for most GPs (avoiding RAF Police investigations, etc), but one young ALM could not see beyond what would happen if his ALM Leader should find out.

I wonder who that ALM Leader might have been - any ideas AA62??

[ancientaviator62]

WIDN62,
oh yes I remember it well. And other Akro incidents. I applied a very simple rule, that if you were in the poo, professionally, socially or otherwise you made sure I was told first. If I heard via another source then you really were in the poo !

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/TRAWLERSPOTTINGFALKLANDS_zpsb273aaf7.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/TRAWLERSPOTTINGFALKLANDS_zpsb273aaf7.jpg.html)

'Trawler' spotting down south. We used the generic term 'trawler' for any non military ship. No doubt some of the others will have pics/tales of what was not our favourite occupation.

[4fitter]

In a previous life I had a position of authority at Akrotiri and one morning received a call from the O'Mess manager to say that the the Mess had been trashed. A call to Ops and a now ex-senior RAF officer elicited that it was either a Herc or Nimrod crew. Hats on shabby drill determined it was the the Herc crew who put flour and cereal on all the fans. Good drills that the Captain - known as a Canadian wild beast - fessed up and paid handsomely for the deeds of his crew.

[Hatchet 130]

Well done that captain;)

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/02864873-cbca-4ee4-8bcb-9bf7a67c72f0_zpsf125611d.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/02864873-cbca-4ee4-8bcb-9bf7a67c72f0_zpsf125611d.jpg.html)

Pic of the tanker's dirty bottom, showing some of the modifications.

[CoffmanStarter]

Tech question chaps ...

I assume the strakes aft of the Hose Orifice are designed to control airflow ... but are they more to do with creating a relatively stable airflow as the hose deploys or for some other reason ? I would have thought that the Drogue Chute would have provided the required hose stability ? :confused:

[smujsmith]

Now that's a good question Coff, and I'm sure someone will have the complete answer. I always understood, as a mere tecky, that there was a structural element to the "strakes" as the hose orifice and pressurisation loads needed to be accounted for. No doubt someone will see them as merely aerodynamic protuberances, but a bit agricultural IMHOP.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
I am sure someone far more knowledgeable than myself will be along soon.
It is not generally known that the hose was deployed by the use of the airflow around the rear of the a/c. I always understood the strakes were fitted to facilitate this. Once the paxolin doors had been opened (to allow the hose to traverse on the carriage) the small airflow shutter deployed and the hose brake released then the hose was free to extend. Sometimes when it was reluctant to do so the ALM would swing on the HDU frame and encourage it by 'pedalling' ! The hose would then be primed with fuel and it would adopt the stable refuelling position. All this while the HDU is attempting to pull the hose back in. This kept the hose rigid in the airflow. Should a customer spike the basket and panic thus removing the basket then the hose would rewind at high speed back onto the drum. Cue the rapid evacuation by the ALM to cower between the tanks .

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Smudge, AA62 ...

Very interesting ... thanks chaps :ok:

Coff.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0008_zpse014c802.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0008_zpse014c802.jpg.html)

Pic of the hose in the stable position. You can clearly see how the fuel was transferred from the probe across the top of the a/c into the main refuelling gallery. Again not the neatest installation but it worked well.

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ... So where are you taking us next with RAF Albert old chap :)

[Dengue_Dude]

Beat the shyte out of the Nimrod one!

[dragartist]

I must admit AA62 I had not previously noticed the strakes. I had cause to visit Marshall when they were developing the fit. I remember the tanks and the plumbing. And yes Smudge it was quite agricultural but when you consider how rapidly it was done I am sure this is not a criticism. I helped design a bit of kit that sat in front of the tanks just aft of FS245. Ordinarily we would have loaded it through the ramp but with the HDU this was not an option, so the kit had to go up the steps through the front door in a couple of bits. We first made a Triwall cardboard space model before cutting metal. The same kit also went on the Mk2 Nimrod.


When we put the probe on the R it had to be balanced out to restore lateral stability and weathercock effects by extending the bump stop into a strake this was done with wood and EEDEX angle to begin with. We had previous experience of this problem when the 3 antennas above the cockpit were added. these were balanced by adding dummy aerials above and below the tailplane. Over the years these got bigger in area to improve stability.


I would suggest this was one of the reasons for the stakes along with stiffening the structure having added the heavy HDU and its support frame. This too was very agricultural. Nothing wrong with that in the circumstances.


If you want to talk agricultural, the box on the back of the Vulcan fits that category. I think Coff put a picture of this up a few months back.


Interesting times! could we do it again? I think we could if the chips were down. I might even be persuaded to come out of retirement.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

How about anyone who has memories of incidents where the aircraft showed its ability to withstand adversity. I have in my mind a story from way back of Albert arriving in Gander with a couple of tons of ice on the nose, I believe due to heating failure. I'm sure I saw it in Air Clues, but I'm just guessing. Someone must know, and someone must have other such stories to expand on. This is becoming part of my daily "must do's" now blokes, don't hold back.

Smudge :ok:

PS dragartist,

No insult intended on the "agricultural" front. I was brought up working on a farm, and recognise it when I see it. I've seen the posts re the Vulcan HDU fit, I suppose the Harpoon ? Mod for the Falklands could also meet the same description. There's nothing wrong with belt and braces agricultural mate.

Smudge :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Drag old chap ... I had a feeling you had a hand in matters :ok:

I'm intrigued by DD's teasing reference to the Nimrod :E

Smudge ... Don't be shy ... You have a natural gift for story telling ;)

Best ...

Coff.

[ksimboy]

AA62 , thank you for bringing back so many happy memories of my time at Lyneham. Have so many similar pics of AAR,and times in Ethiopia, El Centro et al. Boxes of black and white pics taken of a rather eventful 4 months in Stanley 1985. What a fantastic thread, so refreshing to reminisce over good times instead of the normal whining on here.

[CoffmanStarter]

Welcome Ksimboy ...

Please share some of your pics with us :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

[smujsmith]

Of course, many Air Forces have operated the C130 over the years, but I would contend that few had the characters that the Royal Air Force "entrusted" with the operation of the worlds favourite military transport. I will kick off with a man, who I have no doubt will raise a happy smile on many faces, as always recognising the "no names no pack drill" routine.

I heard of a Captain, named H***** J******, we will just call him HJ, who went on a Caribbean trainer. As a native of the area, he was quite happy to let the Co fly the approach to Kingston, and operate the radios. So, all the way down the descent, over to local for the landing, he is dishing out the "Jive talk" and as they request clearance for landing the approach controller called and said "Ascot ****, you are cleared to land, after landing the pilot is to report to the Control tower, and by god you better be black"!!!!! Now that bloke was a real character, I was fortunate enough to be his GE a couple of times. Again, the people made the fleet, as I'm sure is true of many of the services differing fleet types. What about the two "one eyed" pilots ? Did they ever fly together ? From an ex lineys point of view, anyone remember "Rocket Ron" from A Line? Come on lads, let's hear it.

Ksimboy, please keep my mother out of this :eek:

Smudge:ok:

[ksimboy]

Smudge, that's our secret lol. So many happy memories of wonderful times globally. Will never cease to amaze me just how fast a sniffer dog can run when released from its kennel at Dili, 3 days it took it to come back , then led its handler to several caches of bang!!

[ExAscoteer]

AA62,

How about anyone who has memories of incidents where the aircraft showed its ability to withstand adversity. I have in my mind a story from way back of Albert arriving in Gander with a couple of tons of ice on the nose, I believe due to heating failure. I'm sure I saw it in Air Clues, but I'm just guessing.
Smudge :ok:

Smuj,

You are quite right that was at Gander and the 'photo of Albert's nose covered in thick ice (taken a couple of hours post landing mind!) did appear in Air Clues.

It was another 30 Sqn crew - the Captain was Uncle Fester but I forget who the Co was. Apparently they realised something was wrong when the Co had all 4 throttles fire-walled to try and kill the rate of descent on the IMC approach. Indeed, all 4 engines were seriously over-torqued and the aircraft was still descending!

I remember seeing the aftermath, there must have been tons of clear ice accreted on the airframe. I'm not sure they'd had a radome de-icing failure so much as that it had been overwhelmed by the sheer rapidity of the ice build up.

We'd landed some 15 or 20 minutes before off a back beam ILS to R/W 31 and had had warnings of possible icing from ATC but had picked up nothing more than a bit of hoar frost.

Scary stuff!

[DCThumb]

The co was Single Sell! :)

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
the strakes are on the cargo door and the HDU was on the ramp. This is not to say they were not a strengthening item as well but the their position ref the basket always led me to believe they were primarily aerodynamic.
As I understand the Nimrod refuelling hose came inside the a/c a very short distance from the external probe. Not something the crews were wildly enthusiastic about I think.

[ancientaviator62]

I remember talking to Ray after the trip. He said his biggest problem was convincing ATFOC of the facts.
In the very early days of the 'K' we were transiting across northern Canada in the winter. We experienced all four engines surging and all four fuel pressure warning lights on. The a/c knew the solution and took us down to 'warmer' climes. The water in the fuel was freezing and blocking the filters, hence very little go juice was getting through to the engines. Eventually normal service was resumed and we continued albeit lower than before. This was pre FSII days of course, another 'bean counter' saga.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HERCAAR_zps51006056.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HERCAAR_zps51006056.jpg.html)

Coff,
we are still tanking but will be off to warmer climes soon.
Pics from my log book, showing the internals and externals of a tanking op. You can see how large an edifice was the HDU frame.

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks AA62 ... We might need to give a little bit of encouragement to our new Thread Member Ksimboy to share some of his pics :)

[ancientaviator62]

kimsboy,
glad our posts have rekindled memories of your time on the 'K'. We would all love to see your pics and hear your stories. (and anyone else's too) I too was a reluctant poster at first but with Coffman's help I got started. Just look where it has led !

[chickenlover]

Some more from the collection,
First up - flying off the grass at a strip near Shawbury I believe...
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img490_zps3605a8f8.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img490_zps3605a8f8.jpg.html)

Daylight route prover for an NVG low level on 'Winter Deployment' in Norway.
I was very glad when I stopped doing that, especially in minimum starlight....
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img470_zps6ce050d2.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img470_zps6ce050d2.jpg.html)

Boats and troops - anyone ID the coastline ? could be studsplash / medsplash /chansplash / the Gulf ! wish I'd kept better records....
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img466_zpsa0fbb798.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img466_zpsa0fbb798.jpg.html)

Not my pic- approach to Sarajevo. I have access to a good pic of one of the crews being engaged on short finals but its too big for the scanner -anyone had success at scanning in half and stitching ?

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img484_zps71932f75.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img484_zps71932f75.jpg.html)

Budget cuts Port Stanley....
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img493_zps9443a40a.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img493_zps9443a40a.jpg.html)

Meeting with the enemy..... they all turned out to be jolly nice chaps - Minsk

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img474_zps22d8e030.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img474_zps22d8e030.jpg.html)

Not mine-but a nice pic at the Gib Airshow
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img486_zpse2ac5216.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img486_zpse2ac5216.jpg.html)

A secret airbase somewhere in the desert... A certain captain used to announce his arrival back from a mission by flying past the cookhouse as a cue to get the scoff on to be ready for them on taxi in. I climbed up a floodlight tower to get this shot. This practise was halted when he flew so low over the dining room that the styrene ceiling tiles lifted and dumped cr@p and dead bugs in everyones lunch. Ruined my lasagne I can tell you.......

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img463_zpsf70ef421.jpg (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/Fryboy47/media/img463_zpsf70ef421.jpg.html)

There will now be a short break while I disappear on holiday for a while - keep up the good work everyone !

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Chickenlover, splendid pics ... Enjoy your R&R :ok:

[smujsmith]

Great shots Chickenlover,

That Norway one brings back some memories. I spent a month out there and was lucky to be loaned a spare set of old type NVG goggles. It was most impressive to say the least:eek: I'm sure we must have had a beer somewhere, at least once. Have a good break.

Smudge :ok:

[dragartist]

AA62 You are absolutely right about the probe and pipe on the Nimrod. perhaps this is what Denge Dude was getting at. The feet on this rack had to be high enough to go over the pipe running along the floor on the Nimrod Mk2. They were stressed to take the crash loads laterally on the K and axially on the Nimrod. Quite a challenge for a young Dragartist. I made a Noddy guide label to instruct the fitters how to rotate the feet though 90 if the rack was swapped between types. I have the artwork and a few unclassified drawings somewhere in my garage loft or study but turned things upside down last night looking. I wanted to confirm task numbers and dates as they would tally with visits to MA.


I just love that HDU frame. In the circumstances they would have looked in the metal rack to see what they had that was suitable. Surprised they had time to paint it. Most of the parts we made went south with just a coat of etch primmer.


Chickenlover,
The MIB airdrop would have been quite a while back. before we had PUB and able to have the engines mounted on the transom for a quick get away. Enjoy your leave.

[Dengue_Dude]

Yep, re: Nimrod AAR entering the aircraft and running across the floor!

At least the Hercules one had the good manners to be routed on the outside to the centre dry bay en-route Refuel gallery.

[DCThumb]

went on a US SF Herc once - the refuelling receptacle was on top of the cockpit and a piece of what looked like standard bowser hose came vertically down through the flight deck :ooh:

[smujsmith]

Just a quick divert from tanking chaps, if you don't mind. Following my interest in Albert in "situations", does anyone have info on the in flight life raft deployment over the St Lawrence seaway some years ago ? I knew the GE on the aircraft, who is rumoured to have still been in his hammock after landing, while the crew were inspecting the damage. Perhaps they should have alerted him to the diversion to Sept Isles? Does anyone know what happened for real ?

Smudge:ok:

[Yamagata ken]

chickenloverNot my pic- approach to Sarajevo. I have access to a good pic of one of the crews being engaged on short finals but its too big for the scanner -anyone had success at scanning in half and stitching ?Sorry to drop in, but.......... You should re-photograph the print with your camera. Re-photographing often gives better results than scanning anyway.

[GreenKnight121]

Despite having a fancy slide-scanner, my brother found that the best way to digitize our parents' old color slides was to use the old slide projector - and then take a photograph of the screen with the picture displayed thereon!

A little adjustment of color balance/brightness/tint in an image-editing program and great results were achieved.

[Saint Jack]

With regard to the last picture in Post #865 showing a C-130 with attachments under each wingtip, I also notice these same/similar attachments on the RNethAF C-130 that recently brought back the bodies of the MH17 victims - what are they?

[ancientaviator62]

Chickenlover,
the Norway pic brings back memories, but thankfully day only not NVG ! My recent holiday was a cruise down the fjords to look up at them as opposed to looking down/sideways. The ship just scraped under that well known trap for the unwary, the HT cables. Even with their orange marker balls attached
they were very difficult to see at sea level. This should be a cue for 'there but' tale or two !.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000190A_zpse87904e5.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000190A_zpse87904e5.jpg.html)

Back in a warmer place, Changi. Should bring back fond memories for upgently. Despite 205 with Shacks being just across from us 48 Sqn had an SAR commitment. To this end we carried airdrop ASRA kit which was either two liferafts and a stores container or two stores and one liferaft. They were linked together with buoyant rope which was stored in a dispenser box and despatched in a timed sequence. You can see the containers in their transit position before they were moved into the para door aperture.
First of course we had to find the survivors and lay out a smoke float and marine marker pattern. But this will do for now.

[Mal Drop]

ASRA brings back happy memories of fun in the Sim completing Creeping-line Ahead and Clover-leaf searches followed by the ASRA drop pattern. The highlight was the sim instructor gleefully handing the crew the computer-generated plot which in my case generally resembled a spider drawn by a three-year old with attention deficit disorder and non-trivial Class A drug issues.

[Dengue_Dude]

Whilst on 30, we won the Lord Trophy by dropping Lindholme Gear (ASRA) in the right place.

I believe it was originally a TS exercise trophy but when 24/30 went Route only, it morphed into an ASR exercise.

Enjoyable flying all the same. Fortunately, we didn't fly long enough sorties to get bored with endless expanses of water with nothing on/in it.

Deep respect to those whose living is inextricably tied up with that pastime, it's not easy.

[semmern]

Time for some "home photographs" and a request for help first. XV205 on ex Winter Express and I still struggle to remember if this is Fagernes, Trondheim or wherever. I do know that had Santa in a sled pulled by Reindeer crossed the pan that day, it would have been fitting. Anyone know where we were ?

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/d8b07c66e4d72bee1f7b908ed06b97f6_zpsd856e8d2.jpg

A bit late, but that is Fagernes (aka "The Square of Heavenly Peace," due to very little traffic) indeed. A nice place for a $100 hamburger.

This thread is a treasure trove of good stories and pictures for a Herky fan. Keep it up, chaps!

[semmern]

70° 4′ N (Lakselv Airport, Banak Finland)

Have they really moved Banak from Norway to Finland? ;)

[ExAscoteer]

He probably meant Finnmark. :ok:

[semmern]

Makes sense. Not that far off, really :)

Here's a pic I took when I went along for a day's ride on a RNoAf Herky back in 2004 or thereabouts. Great fun for a then-19-year-old.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/semmern/Bilde054-framed.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

ExAscoteer, Semmern ...

Gentlemen you are correct ... Bl00dy auto correct on iPad to blame :hmm:

Finnmark ...

Humble Pie Go

[semmern]

Not your fault that the iPad doesn't acknowledge the existence of northern Norway ;)

[smujsmith]

semmern,

Glad you are enjoying the thread. I enjoyed a wonderful month long deployment to Norway in February 1994, as part of Exercise Winter Deployment. We stayed in a very pleasant hotel in Oslo, and enjoyed some great nights out at the Winston Churchill (is it still going?). As the Winter Olympics were on, the seven of us (5 real crew and two imposter GEs) adopted a sporting theme in our evening activities, a "sporting theme". We decided to try the suggestion that we were a team of 7 man Bobsleigh specialists, and that it was being trialled at those games. Amazing how many people took the bait, and wanted to know when we were running etc. Being of a flight from one of the tactical squadrons, further bull was provided that we were only allowed to run the Bob course at nighttime, and used NVG equipment. Of course, the front end were "expert" in this subject, quickly attracting a following, so to speak! The other main memory of Norway was the scenery, and goodness me, nothing compares in winter. I was a very lucky bloke, and have many happy memories of a great country.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/scan0004_zpsa6cdecf6.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/scan0004_zpsa6cdecf6.jpg.html)

Loadmaster's view from the port para door of the flarepath laid as described by Mal Drop. It consisted of smoke floats and a marine marker. The next action would be the drop of the ASRA itself.

[collindebe]

I was on night shift on A line c shift and if memory serves me well 3 of us were told by Flight Sgt Weaver to go and strip the interior out of XV208 as it was flying to unknown destination the following morning, i think it was about 6 months later a picture appeared in a flight magazine of XV208 as Snoopy. Also went on her several times when it came back to Lyneham.

[semmern]

Good story, Smudge :) Yep, the Sir Winston is still going strong here in Oslo. That was a good time to be here, the 94 olympics were great!

Oh yes, we are quite spoilt for scenery up here. If you can bear a slight digression from the Albert, here are some pics from 2012, when we were making our way slowly up the coast in Tiger Moths, a Cornell, a Bird Dog and a Cub, all ex-RNoAF at some point, on our way to Bodø Air Show.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/semmern/BAS2012/P1060085.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/semmern/BAS2012/P1060103.jpg

[smujsmith]

semmern,

Some very nice photographs there mate, but it can't be Norway, where is the snow ? I can honestly say that in my time on the RAF C130 fleet, I never experienced Norway without snow. A night stop Trondheim comes to mind where the temperature barely rose to a measurable quantity, but we bravely visited some local bars, as our nostrils froze between them. But I definitely never had a bad night stop either. Your photographs are a revelation to an old bloke like me.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/3594c68032bf5789dcdd556700a10c36_zps11b03f93.jpg
This is more like Norway to me. Apologies for my ignorance.

Smudge:ok:

[Davef68]

With regard to the last picture in Post #865 showing a C-130 with attachments under each wingtip, I also notice these same/similar attachments on the RNethAF C-130 that recently brought back the bodies of the MH17 victims - what are they?

They are ESM pods - the UK Hercules ones were called made by racal and called Orange Blossom.

[ExAscoteer]

They are ESM pods - the UK Hercules ones were called made by racal and called Orange Blossom.

An oft repeated Internet myth.


They were not 'Orange Blossom' but 'Orange Crop'.

They were also known (at Lyneham) as 'MAROC' - 'MARshal's (development of) Orange Crop.

[ancientaviator62]

Dengue Dude,
the Lord Trophy was indeed originally a TS airdrop trophy. We used to go to EL Adem for the competition during my time on Hastings and the 'K'.
The black and white pics I posted earlier of a 1 ton M/E drop may have been on one of those occasions.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000189A_zps34038192.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000189A_zps34038192.jpg.html)

No the ALM is not praying. He has just despatched either a smoke float or the marine marker on a 48 Sqn ASRA practice drop.

[CoffmanStarter]

ASRA brings back happy memories of fun in the Sim completing Creeping-line Ahead and Clover-leaf searches followed by the ASRA drop pattern. The highlight was the sim instructor gleefully handing the crew the computer-generated plot which in my case generally resembled a spider drawn by a three-year old with attention deficit disorder and non-trivial Class A drug issues.

Has anyone still got a copy of their ASRA Sim Plot they could share ... :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

semmern,
with pics like that we can be diverted any time. As I mentioned in a previous post I have just had the pleasure of a week cruising the fjords, and looking up for a change. Like smudge my only recollection of Norway is of the winter. But there were still patches of snow on the tops even in summer.
I recollect sending some info on our ex mil Cub to a chap in Norway. Wonder if that was you !

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
when Cosford received their Herc I had a megga clearout and sent them all manner of publications. One of these included the ASRA flarepath layout. So if no one else has one they have.

[Mal Drop]

Just dug through the remnants of my old 'blue brain' where I thought I may have had an ASRA pattern stored, but it looks like it went into the 'great skip of forgetting' when I left.

[ExAscoteer]

The ASRA pattern was a direct copy of that used by the Nimrod up until the late '80s. I think I still have my 'plastic brain' in the roofspace somewhere. When I get chance I'll see if I can dig it out.

In reality I doubt that Albert would have been any real use at SAR except in good weather conditions (as in AA62's 'photo above). In reality SAR generally occurs in Harry ****ers weather - if you find the dinghy/survivor the chance are that the first time you see it/him/her will be the only time you see it/him/her. So all that fannying around with that flarepaths and procedural turns malarky (and whether you drop upwind or downwind of the datum, completely ignoring any issues of swell/tide :rolleyes: ) would be a complete waste of time.

Indeed the Nimrod force binned the whole idea around about 1990 and went to a system of:'mark the datum, return directly to the 'on top' and drop the ASRA gear' as being far more likely to succeed in the real case.

However, flying pretty patterns in the Sim was always good for a bit of acedemic work for the Nav.

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62, Mal Drop ... No worries chaps ... I wouldn't be surprised if someone else pitches up with a plot at some point ;)

[ExAscoteer]

ASRA brings back happy memories of fun in the Sim completing Creeping-line Ahead and Clover-leaf searches followed by the ASRA drop pattern.

I remember doing mine on HCS with the irascible J*** K*****r as the Instructor Captain and J**** M***n as the student Nav. JM was an ex-Nimrod man so, after finding 'the survivor' he called 'On top, on top, now, now, NOW!'. At which point I reefed the aircraft into a steep turn through 70 degrees downwind, followed by reversing the turn with the same AoB back to the datum.

At which point JK was heard to scream 'What the f*** was that Co?'

Followed by JM's quiet comment 'That'll be a Thompson Turn then. Did them all the time on the Nimrod.'



Happy days...





Note: A Thompson Turn is the fastest way of getting back to a datum but on reciprocal heading, the AoB controlling the speed of the turn. You can think of it as a very tight 'Procedural Turn' but without all the faffing.

[semmern]

Smudge and ancientaviator,

I hear quite a lot of Ascots on frequencies around the country in winter. Your Marines also like to come here to freeze their bollocks off in wintertime as well ;) Norway is a nice place to develop those winter warfare skills and tactics.

There are always some patches of snow to be found once you reach 3000ft or so of elevation, even in summer.

Don't think twas me you sent that info to, though we are one of the clubs that took over the ex-Norwegian Army Cubs after they were demobbed, so it might very well have been one of my fellow club members.

Here are some more pics from the same trip. The Lofoten islands are just about my favourite places in Norway. Quite the contrast between the same place in wintertime! :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/semmern/ENAN2012/P1060183-1.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/semmern/ENAN2012/P1060195.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/semmern/ENAN2012/P1060163.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/semmern/ENAN2012/P1060193.jpg

[Top Bunk Tester]

ExAscoteer wrote:

In reality I doubt that Albert would have been any real use at SAR except in good weather conditions (as in AA62's 'photo above).

Short version
Oct 1993 Russian Cargo Ship sinks 400 miles South of Tristan de Cunha. Albert scrambled from RAF Mount Pleasant. Sea State on scene total crap and very heavy, cloud base very low and rain. Survivors located, flare pattern dropped, ASRA dropped on target. Time on Scene approx 2 hours, time airborne 14:45. On return to MPA, second Albert gets airborne, this time with tanker support and does the same thing all over again. All written up in Air Clues at the time. Yes Nimrod would have been preferable, but just like now, nil stock Nimrod. So we made do with the best we had.

[Bts70]

Does anyone have images from the 1994 D-Day drops. I seem to remember fitting every available wedge platform in the RAF inventory. I was up on one of the frames & somewhere I do have some photos (I think I was on about the 10th frame in the formation) but can`t find them to contribute.

The Paras were chucking before we made the runway, we were on start for such a long time on what I can remember was a very hot day, just glad we weren't at the back (how many frames was it in total).

It must have looked very impressive to get so many frames in formation, had a look on the usual online media but can`t find anything there either.

If I find them I will post them up with the Purple helmet images as well.

[smujsmith]

semmern,

You are blessed with a glorious country, with fantastic opportunities for air to ground photography. I'm sure, like many ex RAF personnel, we were only ever allowed to see it, at its most beautiful (My opinion) in winter. No one could ever change my opinion of the fantastic experience of a three hour low level "float" around Norway. Great pictures mate.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

As the one who in all innocence started this ASRA part of the thread may I respectfully suggest we do not allow this superb thread to degenerate into the type of slanging match that has blighted so many others. Disagree by all means but there are ways of doing so that will maintain the good nature of Coffman's inspiration.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Fair call AA62, duly edited

[smujsmith]

AA62,

I rather suspect a little "banter" is as usual going on in this "crew room"! Nevertheless, there are still questions to be answered, why were the bloody rudder pedals so heavy? As a glider pilot, I was taught to lead with the rudder in a turn, in Albert, there was no chance, the first time I had a go I thought the Booster pack had failed. As a Captain once confirmed "directional control" is easier with differential throttle than rudder. Still awaiting info on the "Sept Isles" diversion, come on chaps, there are still loads of memory's to recall.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000034A_zps479270ab.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000034A_zps479270ab.jpg.html)

Still with 48 Sqn this time a picture of the runway at Penerak on Ex Bersatu Padu in 1970.

[ancientaviator62]

Top Bunk Tester,
thanks.

[ancientaviator62]

Has anyone heard the tale of how the a/c ELFAK was dropped to a distressed yachtsman ?

[smujsmith]

Gentlemen, and ascoteers, it's Sunday evening, a fine venison steak has been devoured, the wine has flowed, so, as usual, I will pop a question. Does anyone remember the "chap in the white suit" from Banjul ? Rumour had it, in my day, that he had scavenged every bit of lashing tape available on our runs to ASI, and southwards. To the extent that his wife had unpicked the lashing tape, and woven it, eventually producing a nice white suit. I certainly remember seeing this chap, and I'm sure I once saw a photograph of him, in his suit. Anyone else have memories ?

Smudge:ok:

[Dengue_Dude]

Funny thing is I still have one of the brown tin boxes the Smoke Floats came in - in my shed.

Along with the orange HUPRA bag, God I had to do some negotiating with the Squippers to get that. I've had it for 40 years!!!

[Top Bunk Tester]

That'll be the HUPRA that was due to be withdrawn from service as it had never been used in anger. The week it was due to go guess what? The first hang up occurred ..... Withdrawal withdrawn :D

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HERCATPENERAK_zpsd333d4aa.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HERCATPENERAK_zpsd333d4aa.jpg.html)

Another pic of Penerak.
Ah HUPRA, I never used it in anger, but did use it for the 22 foot steerable parachute tailgating hang up trials.

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
I certainly remember the chap at Banjul and his lashing tape ! A spare roll of this tape was a no go item for Banjul trips for without it you could get nothing done. Made a change from the 'local gratuities' (bribes) that you had to pay out to get anything done at many other places.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

You are absolutely correct sir, and what a service we got from the man in the white suit. Another useful "bung" were the poly bags of water sediment drain samples. He told me once that he and his family relied on them for cooking and lighting. With FSII and corrosion inhibitor added, I doubt it would have made his home environment that healthy. Still, at least we disposed of it properly in that case, mostly, the bags became donations to a Houchin :eek: Nice seeing 306 in true colours peeking in to that last shot.

Smudge:ok:

[dragartist]

I can't see why one would covert a HUPRA bag. True; the Mk 1 bag was more durable than the Mk2. One of the adverse comments when I took the prototype Mk2 bag to show the squippers at LYN to ensure the contents would all fit was the zip was not up to much. (big black plastic not brass) Was it fit for purpose or unsafe? Could you undo it in a hurry? The zip was changed to make the bag more desirable. I think we bought around 50 each with a set of brand new 10K and 5K floor fittings and a shinny new T handle J knife. (what they called an Air Sea Rescue Knife). Several years later having seen these things being bay serviced at AFPSU all of the new fittings had been swapped out for old ones. I blew my top as I had personally supervised the kitting of the new bits for this critical lifesaving bit of kit.


I wonder how much the Mod cost to have the fittings removed from the bag and the AP changed when the K went out of service.


OK - on the topic of bags - how many of you own up to having one of the para recovery bags for their garden rubbish? The heavy duty canvas ones cost £196 each hence we introduced the £5.60 one made in Mumbai. 0.25p was to cover the stencilling to stop you buggers pinching them!!!

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
ah the para bags ! Very long lasting I understand !!!

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/XV3071_zpsea61261b.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/XV3071_zpsea61261b.jpg.html)

Another pic of our much loved colour scheme. Even better with 'Royal Air Force Far East' on the side (sigh). Not sure where this is but I think India somewhere !
Smudge, you can tell from the state of the props that this was in pre G/E days.

[Scottishdrone]

Got directed to this forum by H... B... and all these old pics and stories bring back memories. Early on there was some discussion about how far N and S the machine had been. As regards N on 10 June 69 on Crosscheck 1 two of our Ks and two RCAF aircraft flew low level from Thule northwards and landed at Alert (someone has already given lat & long). In fact the routine resupply RCAF landed at the same time and we had five Hercs doing a ramp dance as there was not a lot of space. We then flew low to Eureka and Resolute Bay overflying the Magnetic NP. The old whisky compass did not like that!! XV192 was one of the two RAF aircraft.


As regards S in Nov 72 a crew from each squadron and two Herc Ks took part in Op Deepfreeze based in Christchurch flying to McMurdo. The background was the USN had crashed two ski birds in the previous season and they were short of airlift to move materials to Antarctica to rebuild the South Pole station. One of the USN birds crashed because a JATO rocket came free and took out the starboard engines. The aircraft crashed straight ahead; the crew survived and the aircraft was recovered a few years later. Anyway as part of the RAF deployment we flew XV193 from Williams Field to overfly the South Pole 'to show the flag' before returning to Williams Field, McMurdo.


As regards how high I was once asked by some strange boffins to fly as high as we could get Albert so that they could get 'air samples'. We did not have a lot of fuel and got up to 42,000ft but the paddles could not find enough air to go any higher!!


Happy Days and a long time ago.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

Of course, had anyone ever briefed the crew on where the ladder was stowed, you may never have had need of AGEs:eek: As you can tell, I'm very taken with that paint scheme. My first few Base 3 Servicings at Colerne in the early 70s, were in that very finish. Colerne was a great place, and any photograph like yours brings back memories of happy days. Curiously, I was such a fan, I was pleased that our team Painters were able to complete my £90 Morris Oxford in the same scheme.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000086A_zpsb7fb1940.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000086A_zpsb7fb1940.jpg.html)

More eye candy for those with impeccable taste. Our old friend 179 with yours truly doing the 'three clear' bit' somewhere warm and humid. But apart from Korea or Japan in the winter all our trips were warm and humid !

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
your Morris Oxford in the nicest 'K' colour scheme reminds me of the time I was on 92 with Hunters. The OC had an Aston Martin in a very fetching scheme of ground equipment blue. not one that was in the Aston palette. This car had a number plate of OC 92 (or was it CO 92 ?)and was handed on to each successive boss. Wonder if the car still exists or even the plate. Both would be worth real money !

[Trumpet_trousers]

Our old friend 179

My eagle eye spots a subtle, yet significant change of title on the fuselage - any idea when this occurred AA62?
I joined the fleet much later, when the simple 3 word title was in vogue! AA62, we certainly know one another....

[ancientaviator62]

Trumpet Trousers,
good spot. It says Air support Command me thinks. Yet it was in a batch of my FEAF slides ! We were FEAF right up to the end I am sure and remember being bollocked by Lyneham for taxying too fast when we brought an a/c home. We were always trying to beat the duty free beer cut off at Changi
Creek. So we either borrowed an a/c for one of the joint exercises or this was taken just after we came home. I must still be on 48 as I am wearing the my red squadron scarf. (still got it but it has been recycled as a windscreen cleaner).
Still looks hot and humid though.
If you PM me we can compare notes and see if we do know each other.

[Xercules]

When we went from the, obviously, beloved s*** and custard to green and grey, if memory serves, we ran a Masirah schedule out of Lyneham. Am I alone in remembering the one that called for an engine change in Masirah? Unfortunately, nobody had apparently thought about the down-route stock of engines and all those in Masirah were SandC - sick Albert was GandG.

There was nothing to be done but change the engine producing a very weird effect and on its return to LYE that Albert (at OC Eng's insistence) was confined to the circuit until uniformity prevailed. Somebody must have a picture somewhere!

[smujsmith]

AA62,

The 92 Squadron, Bluemobile, sounds good, and very fitting. My Oxford was painted on the conventional lines of the car, the log book said it was Rose Taupe/ White, it ended up Light Stone and Dark Earth, with a white top and Gloss black sills etc. we had quite a few variations, I remember an Engines Sgt who had a Ford Anglia, and he went the whole hog, with full camo layout (including Roundels), and the front half of the roof painted white. How any of us got away with it goodness knows, I do believe that Colerne Painters tea swindle was awash with beer money though.

Smudge:ok:

[gopher01]

My apologies for joining the debate on the tanker strakes so late but I have only just seen the thread on the forum. As one of the four G.E,s who were selected to go to Marham to do the HDU course even before a HDU had been fitted to Albert, I was in the position to follow the early days of the conversion and operation of the tankers both during the build and the first days of operation in ASI.
We departed to Marham on a fortnights detachment to do the HDU course, both Prop and Leckies side of it each of which was a two week course. Even my maths worked out that both courses wouldn't fit into two weeks so we were allowed to pick and choose which bits we thought relevant so we left out most of the specific Victor airframe bits and ended up with the HDU "Q ". Before we left the Ground School we helped the remove the training HDU, a MK 17, from their classroom for it to go back to Flight Refuelling for refurbishment and updating for it to be fitted to a later Herc!
On finishing at Marham we decanted to Cambridge for a night stop, not four star I'm afraid, and then spent a day at Marshalls as they were carrying out the fit of the first aircraft. The degree of suck it and see involved in the fit was apparent in that Marshalls had not been given any information on the specific requirements to operate the HDU,e.g., Air supply pressure and temp, fuel supply pressure etc. they were going to plumb it straight into the bleed air system and the fuel dump lines , both of which were at too high a pressure and would trip all the pressure switches in the relevant systems and the bleed air temp would also trip everything off which is why you could see air intakes and intercoolers plumbed in. We left them some photocopies of our course paperwork which I believe was about all they ever had to work with.
At a later date we went back to Cambridge for an update on the fit and trials during which we were shown the films Marshalls took of the initial deployment trials of the hose and drogue. It was a result of these trials that the scoop to assist the deployment of the hose was introduced as the hose was rather reluctant to leave the stowed position. It was also as a result of these trials that the strakes were introduced as on the first deployments the drogue and hose slid up the cargo door and flailed around the duck bill causing quite a bit of damage and did not drop away into the correct refuelling trail position. It appeared that the airflow around the ramp and door sucked the hose back up along the door until the strakes were fitted to redirect the airflow and allow the hose to drop away. Marshalls had asked Lockheed for info on the airflow around that area with regard to deploying a hose and Lockheed had said when you find out let us know! There was no structural element to the strakes, purely airflow.
As for the agricultural style of the build this possibly truer than one might think as during the first trips at ASI there were failures to transfer fuel from the internal tanks to the main tanks which would only happen when airborne and depressurised. This was traced to lengths of fuel hose used in the internal tank vent system collapsing due to the pumps used to transfer the fuel causing a depression in the tanks greater than the rigidity of the hose could cope with. We decided that the fix was to reduce the length of unsupported hose and contacted Lyneham to send us some of the rigid pipe they had used in the initial build, The reply was that we already had some, they had cut up lengths of the Highway staging used to service the aircraft and used that and what is more it did the trick beautifully and cured that problem.
There are a number of other examples of the ways this was built and operated which would normally would have people screaming and running for the hills which I could relate but what was a rushed task went on to serve its purpose for many years, another example of the Labours of Hercules. (Apologies to Air International for pinching their article title)

[kilwhang]

Talking about colour schemes; way back in the mid-70s, at Dulles, we were being driven out to the aircraft by the grumpy crew-coach driver who I'm sure you remember. There were two Alberts sitting there, one in each scheme.

He turned to us and said 'Which one of these do y'all want - the Green Dragon, or the Mud Puppy? '

:)

[smujsmith]

Gopher 01,

Interesting that GEs were involved in the initial fit of the HDU to Albert. Like you, I did a Q-HDU course (at BZN nor Marham), but, apart from a couple of tanker rotations to MPA never flew on a tanker. Unless FARPING could classed as tanking:rolleyes:

Kilwhang,

I reckon I prefer "Mud Puppy" to S**t and Custard. Do you remember if 70 operated in that colour scheme when we were at Akrotiri, I actually flew to Malta with them once, but can't remember.

Smudge:ok:

[Trumpet_trousers]

There was no structural element to the strakes, purely airflow

IIRC, they were made from wood, (or was I just smoking something?? :ooh:)

Ah yes, the happy days of ASI tanker dets, Trivial Pursuit on the outbound leg, freezing yer 'nads off during the transfer, the essential components to successfully re-pressurize after the transfer (kimwipe and a cold water flask...) and the welcome orange dot on the radar after the trek back home...

[salad-dodger]

"IIRC, they were made from wood, (or was I just smoking something?? :ooh:)"


Could well have been. The ventral strake fitted to the first Nimrod R1 with a refuelling probe was made of wood.


S-D

[ancientaviator62]

gopher01,
thank you for the very full explanation of the initial tanker fit to the 'K' and confirming my belief that the strakes on the door were aerodynamic (and wooden).
As you say very 'suck it and see' as it had never been done before on a Hercules. So not surprising that Lockheeds did not know. The USMC tankers use wing pods and a ro-ro system for the fuselage tanks. In the time available this option was not open to Marshalls and I believe the firm that made the USMC tanks said we could have some in 18 months.
I understand that Lockheeds were also asked for fatigue data for operating the tanking at the max overload weight, which was 20000 lbs over the normal TOW.
As we intended doing this on a regular basis Lockheeds, understandably, did not want to know.
I was also told that initially the HDU panel was supposed to be bolted onto the forward face of the HDU for the ALM to operate, but because the 'spare' Nav on the Victor did the job, it was positioned above the Nav station on the 'K'. This would chime with the famous fitting of the emergency exit door on the VC10 tankers at great expense. There were other Marham 'irritations' !

[ancientaviator62]

TT,
yes kimwipe and the broom handle were no go items on the tanker. Much fun could also be had persuading the safety valve to close after the tank, not to mention the ice flakes flicking around inside as the hose rewound. Happy days.

[Davef68]

The mention of the Command names reminds me of an old query - did any RAF Hercules carry the old 'Transport Command' title? I know the aircraft entered service at about (or just after) Transport changed to Air Support, but I wonder if any of the trials aircraft carried the title or (more relevant to the thread perhaps!) there were any 'unofficial' applications?

[dragartist]

Gopher,
Great post at #979. It was certainly a busy time. I love the scaffold pole tale. I am sure it is true. I have similar tales of scaffold poles being used in other areas (helicopters).


SD - I am not altogether sure if the wooden strake on the R was cased in fibre glass at RAE Bedford. I know they made the plinth for the OMEGA aerial that was fitted in the same vicinity and about the same era. - it may have been after hostilities ceased. As I noted in a previous post the stakes got bigger and additional stabilisers were added to the tail plane in time.


Going back to aerodynamics and the flow around the back of the aircraft: This topic remains a black art. I served a NATO Ctee for a while. we had a UK "Expert" lets call him "Slippery". He was charged to investigate the use of CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) the topic was parachute deployment. I am not sure how much was spent, but it was a serious amount of the AWC budget. Did it help? Did it hell as like. Could not predict anything with any certainty. Slippery left the RAF to run off with his French bird several years ago but he did well out of this project with a licence to travel the globe to every academic establishment dealing in CFD. My boss referred to him as Judith (Chalmers of Wish you were here fame). It was always suck it and see. We spent a fortune on trials to establish cross over on Sim Sticks with the LLP. Analysis of video was best. As I understand things the technique of lowering the undercarriage on the A400M in an effort to straighten things out for airdrop and para was not as a result of any CFD. I may be wrong but that's what I was told.

[ancientaviator62]

Davef68,
good question ref the command titles. I still have my 'K' course notes (8 Course) which are headed 'Royal Air Force Transport Command '. I also have, somewhere, a print of the pic commissioned for the intro of the Herc into RAF service and am convinced that says 'Royal Air Force Transport Command'. Must try to find it. But whether any of the a/c were so marked I cannot remember. There must be a pic somewhere.

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist, ref your problems with the LLP, we always had problems with para crossover with the PX and the 22 ft from the side doors. We were bombarded with wizzo suggestions from above none of which took into account the runaway train that was an operational para drop.
Ref the airflow round the rear this was also a problem when we came to develop the 'snatch' for use down south. Pics along later.

[smujsmith]

According to sources such as Wiki, Transport Command succumbed to Air Support Command in 1967. Now, I'm convinced I saw Alberts on jacks at Colerne around 1971 with Transport Command annotated on the fuselage. Perhaps my dementia is winning:eek:

AA62 #921,

Something in the background reminds me of Florida, but just a niggle.

Smudge:ok:

[dragartist]

AA62,
Tanks! Tanks, that is the answer! I have no doubt that the under wing tanks should have been fitted to the J to begin with. that would straighten things out just a little. and we all know every little helps. On cross over; the long J was as good as the short K, or was it the other way round?


I don't recall 22ft going out of the side doors in my time. Always out the back following boats or on the water course.


Look forward to seeing the snatch pics. I think I did see something like this in the archives at JATE years ago. VX275 sent me some Beverly similar sounding stuff a while back.

[salad-dodger]

Drag

The ventral fin on the first of the probe equipped R1s was definitely made of wood. This was the R1 that had the pipework (bowser hose) coming down through the flight deck and into the floor just forward of the Nav's bench. The pipework also came out of the fuselage under the wing and reentered a few feet further back using two right angles and more bowser hose. I think that was 664, that had the first fit. Subsequent aircraft had a more professional fit with a fibreglass ventral fin and also the additional fins on the horizontal stabilisers. The first aircraft did not have those.

Anyway, back to the Herc!

S-D

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
did a 22 ft steerable trial (singular) when I was at JATE in 1975. They collided so badly that we suspended the trial. Turned out our 'clearance' from Boscombe was nothing of the kind. Only ever did tailgating with the 22 ft after that.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000067A_zps9eb24e58.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000067A_zps9eb24e58.jpg.html)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000068A_zps313a4de8.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000068A_zps313a4de8.jpg.html)

The above pics show a single row 1 ton AGE airdrop. You can see the extractor parachute attached to the bomb rack at the top of pic 1. The second pic shows how those neat and tidy para bags have been tangled into a rat's nest by the turbulent airflow around the rear of the a/c. This of course is with the ramp and door open, by as dragartist will no doubt confirm the air behind the a/c was always turbulent whatever the a/c configuration.
I could never feel any real difference in airflow when standing in the para door whether the air deflectors were open or shut. But closing the para door without them open was rather more difficult.
The ALM's used to get some stick from the menders for the state of the airframe in the vicinity of the para door locks. This was due to trying to close the door in flight in one smooth motion. One of the JENGOs made the mistake of offering to show us how it should be done ! It was very easy on the ground but I took him flying. He never did get it properly shut despite several attempts. Life aloft is never quite the same as life below.

[Madbob]

AA62

Ref your last photo. I noticed in some earlier posts that ALM's during drops originally were wearing either the Airlite headset with a boom mic or as in your last post G (cloth) helmets and O2 masks.

When did the practice of wearing "hard" helmets come in? Just a curious question as later pics show rear crew wearing Mk 10's. (I've also seen front crew wearing helmets on Red Flag/Afg missions when operating low level and for mounting NVG's which makes sense.)

What's the current SOP? I wouldn't relish the prospect of wearing a bonedome for 6 plus hours, even if the max G during a sortie was only 2.5!

MB

[ancientaviator62]

Madbob,
the chaps in the last pics are the army Air Despatchers, and their No. 1 is wearing a 'cloth hat' headset so that if we had an emergency he would be in the loop.
When I first started on Hastings we only had 'cloth hats ' but wore bone domes on top and parachutes for appropriate drops. If you look back at my two B/W pics from El Adem you can see the then current fashion. This carried over to the 'K' when it came into service, but for many drops we used the standard headset and boom mike. I have been retired for a long time now so do not know what the current SOP is.
Hope this helps.

[gopher01]

Drag
Does anybody know if there was any information available as to the effect on the Herc of flying with the ramp below the horizontal i.e., with the arms removed as if in the ground loading position. This I ask from a personal interest, depending on the answers I might just explain my interest. I would imagine an obvious nose down moment on the aircraft but was there ever anything in print or word of mouth about it.

If anybody wondered how much vacumn you could get acting on the vent system on the internal tanks, you should have seen what happened to the alloy collector tanks with the transfer pumps in when the pipes collapsed, not nice! A fairly serious redesign resulted from that one.

[ancientaviator62]

gopher01,
ref your post about flying with the ramp below the horizontal. It was talked about but I do not know if it was ever trialed in the UK. Rumour had it the US had done some trials but I do not know how true this was. The only reason I can think of for doing this was to slide something (or somebody !) down the ramp on a very low slow pass. Preferably into something soft like snow.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/RMAF_0000018A_zps4ce54636.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/RMAF_0000018A_zps4ce54636.jpg.html)

Now I have mentioned the 'snatch' I had better say something about it.
When the Falklands was recovered the airfield at Stanley was hors de combat. To get mail to the forces was straightforward enough by airdrop but how to get the replies out ? Hence the snatch was born.
It had been done in WW2 and lots of film etc existed. What did not exist (or could not be found) were any drawings of the hook etc. So a bit of trial and error resulted in a hook that would fly in a stable manner behind the a/c.
Initially the rewind was done by four Air Despatchers but a mod allowed the winch to be powered via the aux hyd system. All my pics are of the trials, I did not fly on the down south trips. A few more pics to follow.

[esscee]

I remember the snatch being practised at BZZ close to the ATC tower on the south side of the runway, quite impressive low level flying.

[ancientaviator62]

esscee,
you would have no doubt enjoyed the JATE ULLA drops on the airfield when we were based at Abingdon. They were much closer to the ground !

[Dougie M]

Just HAD to put in my tuppence worth.
The Snatch ground to air retrieval system was initially request to recover mail from the fleet in the South Atlantic.
The ideas ranged from a loop suspended between parts of the superstructure of H.M. Ships to a lifting kite. Kites were successfully flown by the Chinese laundry staff but they only lifted string. A lifting parachute then arrived which was to be flown off the stern. Trials at Larkhill showed that the aircraft had to fly at the para securing line at 45 degrees due to the curtinary of the droop. The first attempt required a rapid return to Brize for a taxy round while I emerged from the deck escape hatch to sever the line round the starboard wing between the engines. When flown off the stern of HMS Arethusa the para ditched suddenly after hitting turbulence and became a very efficient sea anchor. The fish heads rapidly lost enthusiasm for the idea
The Loop pick up was practised at Brize and the retrieval height was determined at 40 feet after numerous furrows were ploughed along the south side of the runway.
Now the live Snatch could be trialled at Larkhill. Trouble was when we got it what did we do with it. The AD boys started with the "Heave Ho" method but that took too long and when it reached the aircraft it sponned the duck bill so M**** McL**** cut it free. The AD guys nearly despatched HIM.
An expert brought us an aerial erection winch from the Boer war so finally the aircrew demanded and got a Fulton recovery winch.
As for the morale boosting mail for the U.K. plan, the Navy never used it and the guys at Stanley thought it was a joke and sent up a sheeps head in the bag. All in all not one of the better ideas.

[dragartist]

Gopher, my knowledge of AD is post 1994. Before that I was involved in the spooky stuff, probably with SD. My introduction to the Herc was fitting some kit to the Herc that went south in 82. I am guessing it was the one AA62 took to Belize and on to somewhere else for a paint job by the illiterate sign writer. ( The only knowledge I have of this is from Hutchings book).


Never aware of any attempt to lower the Herc ramp below the horizontal in the air. My contacts at BD who would know, like me have all retired. We did lower the Chinook ramp to drop parcels on 28ft Utilities. Evalu8er may know what effect this had on the stability and control when flying the aggressive evasive manoeuvre on the run in.


You will be aware, I am sure, of Wedge so we could keep the ramp up and open the top door to despatch stores with troops out of the sides. I guess with the airflow had the ramp been open the parachutist may have gone out the side and back in though the ramp.


I am not at all familiar with the tangled stores parachute bags in AA62 picture. Most of the stores chutes used a weak link on the anchor cable so the static line left the aircraft with the load after it had done its job.


It was a pain when 28fts were rigged with Apex weak links as the static lines never got reunited with the chute for re-packing. We changed this over time to standardise procedures. Some of the 28fts we were still using in 2011 were nearly as old as me!

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
I should have made it plain that my pic of the tangled para bags was taken in FEAF and we were using the old system whereby the bags were retained and had to be retrieved and untangled. Obviously this was before your time on AD. By then the new system did not leave the bags to be untangled and they went down with the load.! I used the pic to illustrate how turbulent the rear end airflow was.

[dragartist]

AA62, I remember some experiments with the French SLSHL where they put scoops on the bag in an effort to get it to fly without them all getting tangled. the last man out still got a face full of bag.


Did you use the parachutists Load lowering Line (rope) as a halliard to pull the bags in?


Just before I finished they were experimenting with some Kevlar reinforced cord specifically for the job.

[smujsmith]

Apart from the complexities of dropping loads various, I would have thought that from an aerodynamic point of view (as Gopher asked) the lowering of the ramp below the arms attached position would have a similar effect to putting some serious nose down elevator on ? In fact, I always believed that the Loadie checked the arms were attached, as part of his pre flight checks, to prevent such an inadvertent selection of the ramp. As was their design function. Or was all that training I had irrelevant ? After all, the ramp is a significant piece of "control surface" to poke into the airflow.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
the checking of the ADS arms was indeed part of the ALM preflight checks. Also when loading any of the AD loads before airdrop the ADS arms were connected .

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
the bag retrieval system for the original AGE system for a full load used the para retrieval winch cables rigged on an anchor cable to wind in the bags.
On double row we had to carry an extra ALM whose sole task was to operate the starboard winch. Having seen the tangle from a few container's bags you can imagine what a full load was like. So it was imperative that they synchronised their rewind. Sometimes even this was not enough, the bags would refuse to move and we had several cases of the winch coming off the wall !
The original AGE was not much loved.

[ancientaviator62]

Dougie,
another illuminating post. As I said my contact with the snatch was on some of the JATE trials. Do you recall the Lyneham snatch demo ? A little lower and slower than usual approach almost achieved the angling catch of the year. The hook is reputed to have just missed the Jet garage that resided just outside of the Lyneham perimeter !

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/RMAF_0000008A_zps457b9de8.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/RMAF_0000008A_zps457b9de8.jpg.html)

Another pic of the snatch which shows the rig a bit better than the previous pic.

[Dougie M]

The Lyneham Snatch demo did not include me I hasten to add. A certain Wg Cdr Ops took control of the demo and the grapnel hook snagged the load bag with only one tine. the run in was along the runway 07 axis and the unhappy bag worked itself loose almost immediately and now sits on the bottom of Tockenham reservoir.
Very impressive to watch however.

[upgently]

Sorry chaps but at the risk of sending the current trend off at a tangent I submit a couple of pics. I can't add anything to the current chat so it's just pics I'm afraid.

http://i60.tinypic.com/2u9n693.jpg

[upgently]

The photo above was taken in Masirah and this long distant shot was taken at Clark AFB in the Philippines.

This crew were stunting and on take off, gear up, nose down, Christ what was that?

What that was happened to be contact will a noise abatement bank on the airfield perimeter taking out the nose wheel and one set of mains. The runway was foamed - those were the days - and they set up this approach. Usain Bolt would have nothing on the speed this crew feathered the props, jettisoned the crew door and ran like hell. :=

http://i60.tinypic.com/facwsl.jpg

[ancientaviator62]

upgently,
welcome back. Nice pic which could just as easily have been taken at Salalah. Interesting tale about the Clark AFB Herc. Something always waits to bite the unwary. Trust you are well.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/RMAF_0000006A_zpsa2173649.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/RMAF_0000006A_zpsa2173649.jpg.html)

This pic is to illustrate and complement Dougie's description of the retrieval of the load bag on the trials. The manual rewind system is still being used here before the switch to power. And yes it did get VERY close to the ducksbill and cargo door on occasions. I did have some pics of the power system but they have gone walkies. Doug, can you confirm (or otherwise ?) that the power was via the Aux hyd system ? Or is my fickle memory confusing it with something else !

[Dougie M]

Sir your memory does not fade.
The Fulton recovery winch was indeed powered through the Aux Hyd system.
The only snag was that the MOD procurers only purchased one spool for the winch which had two drives. The second, shorter cable was to reel in the Person/bag when he/it had been brought to a stable position abaft the ramp. Hence the unseemly scrabbling to pin down the load in 82. Happy Days. DM

[ancientaviator62]

DM,
many thanks for the confirmation. Happy and very interesting times we had too. It has been suggested we could compile a book from our inputs but some of the tales would stretch the credulity of the 'lay' reader.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/RMAF_0000010A_zps9d4c4f73.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/RMAF_0000010A_zps9d4c4f73.jpg.html)

Final pic of my snatch series. You can get a bit of a sensation of speed from this pic.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

Nice pic, it does give an impression of speed. But it looks like there's a good old "nose high" attitude there, suggesting "slow" ? Perhaps low, and slow might describe it better ? Welcome back upgently, hope you are well.

Smudge:ok:

[gopher01]

I agree that pre-flight checks required ADS arms to be connected but there was at least one take off that started with the ramp on the floor and that involved some nifty work on the ramp controls to get the ramp above the horizontal before rotation. It could well have been a prime candidate for " I learnt about flying from that" page in some aviation mags. It was a prime example of a break down in communications and the way that people interpret things to be what they expect rather than how they actually are! If there is any interest I can detail the saga for as Max Boyce used to say " I know because I was there!"

[ancientaviator62]

gopher01,
I at least would like to hear your ADS tale. I too have taken off with the ramp in a less than optimal position. I was the ALM on the Abingdon B of B Display Herc in XV 300 on the 15 Sept 1972. We were doing tac offloads on the grass in front of the VIPs.
We had two armoured cars and a troop of soldiers. The rehearsals went perfectly but on the day the forward vehicle stalled. Luckily I had anticipated this scenario and had briefed the driver of the No 1 vehicle not to drive away until I gave the signal. When the forward one did not move I motioned him back up the ramp connected a chain as a tow rope and off they went. Of course this took longer than normal. The Nav was commentating to the Captain from the bottom of the flight deck steps and as soon as he said the vehicles were off so was the a/c. I just had enough time to get the loading ramps up and started to close up as we rotated. I was not best pleased !

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000157A_zpscfb0ca2d.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000157A_zpscfb0ca2d.jpg.html)

Douggie M has talked briefly about operating with the Senior Service. This pic shows one of the types of waterproof container that we used to use. There were others. My first drop to a ship was in XV 190 in September 1973 to HMS Kent. As none of us were at all competent in ship recognition we had pics from 'Janes All The Worlds Ships' . It would be bad for the image if we presented the package to the inevitable shadowing Russian 'trawler'.
A task force like that in Op Corporate had an air defence cordon around it. Entry and exit was by 'gates ' whose position etc changed regularly around the clock. So did the appropriate codes. Sometimes in the words of that Barclaycard commercial 'we were all fluent, sadly in different languages' !
Our time and that of the RN could get out of sync and so could the comms.
When that happened the Herc crews would get fed up and threaten to take the kit home. This generally worked but the 'sparkling' on te CCWR as the fleet AD radars tracked you could be disconcerting. I am sure DM and others could tell some interesting tales.

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ... Many thanks for your help with this superb thread old chap ... much appreciated :ok:

I'm still a bit involved off radar as PM'd ... but will pop by when I can.

[smujsmith]

Gopher 01,

Come on then mate, spill the beans #967, I'm sure we all await your telling of the incident.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
my pleasure to help keep your super thread going. Best wishes.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HERCEXTERNALRAMPOPEN_zps2a7e23fc.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HERCEXTERNALRAMPOPEN_zps2a7e23fc.jpg.html)

As you can see in this pic (not taken by me so may be from the JATE archive) you can see that the ADS arms are connected .

[Dengue_Dude]

Isn't there a clue in the nomenclature?

I always thought that ADS meant Air Despatch System, inferring they were fitted to ALLOW airborne stores release (along with the Bombracks).

[Dougie M]

Back to 82 Folks
The fleet on its way south discovered a lot of things were left behind or were being used up too quickly so the Drops to Ships page in MOTS ll was rewritten. Once the usual inter service comms cock up was resolved; e.g. "British Warship on my starboard side...." followed by the BAM code fiasco; "Yeoman, make signal to Hercules..." The snag was that the container when dropped floated flush with the surface and was invisible from the ship. The Wasp was launched and being lighter than the load could only hover over it till the whaler was launched to tow the load to the ship. On winching it aboard the soggy bottom often fell out consigning the V&A contents to Davy Jones.
Enter the JATE team. The 1 ton Waterproof load was only coated tri wall cardboard which kept the sogginess at bay for a few hours. A SARBE beacon was applied to the top for the Wasp to locate the load in high seas using its centre reader, and a Flacon beacon was attached for visual ident.
The SARBE and Flacon were activated prior to the drop so it was "blinding Rodney" on the ramp.
Epilogue. The Navy still took several hours to retrieve the load from the sea and several more contents were lost to Davy Jones.
Hope that explains.

[ancientaviator62]

DM,
when we did our drop to HMS Kent, the 'proper' waterproof container was not available. Our smallish store was wrapped in what looked like a bin liner secured with black tape. After we dropped it they scrambled the heli to pick it up. The downwash from the heli looked likely to result in the store emulating a submarine. So they reverted to the old fashioned method. They launched a boat.

[ancientaviator62]

Dengue Dude,
sorry but I have not quite followed the point you are making ref the 'Air Drop System' arms.

[Dengue_Dude]

It was just your observation that the ADS arms were connected and a comment earlier in the thread about not going beyond the ramp horizontal in flight - absolutely.

I was just 'agreeing' that the ADS arms ensured a horizontal ramp i.e. an extension of the flat floor to allow airdrop.

It might just be my age . . . . :O

[ancientaviator62]

DD,
almost certainly MY age ! I am not as sharp on the uptake as I once (thought) I was ! I fully understand now. Yes provided the checks are carried out correctly the ramp should never go below the horizontal in flight. Unless someone knows differently.

[CoffmanStarter]

Sorry chaps to go back to the 'snatch' topic ... but I'm a bit behind the curve following my absence :(

Am I right in assuming that the 'snatch' technique described, as used by the RAF, is different to the USAF Fulton STAR System ... where their Herc's have a scissors nose to capture the recovery cable attached to a balloon ? Was it more like the earlier arrangement outlined below ?

The Fulton surface-to-air recovery system (STARS) is a system used by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), United States Air Force and United States Navy for retrieving persons on the ground using aircraft such as the MC-130E Combat Talon I. It involves using an overall-type harness and a self-inflating balloon which carries an attached lift line. An MC-130E engages the line with its V-shaped yoke and the individual is reeled on board. Red flags on the lift line guide the pilot during daylight recoveries; lights on the lift line are used for night recoveries. Recovery kits were designed for one and two-man retrievals.

This system was developed by inventor Robert Edison Fulton, Jr., for the Central Intelligence Agency in the early 1950s. It was an evolution from a similar system[1] that was used during World War II by American and British forces. The earlier system did not use a balloon, but had a pair of poles that were set in the ground on either side of the person to be retrieved, with a line running from the top of one pole to the other. An aircraft, usually a C-47 Skytrain, would trail a grappling hook and engage the line, which was attached to the person to be retrieved.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/imagejpg1_zpseb9b14d2.jpg

Sorry ... Just trying to get my head around how our system worked ... Sounds a bit sporty to say the least :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

I suspect that Dengue Dude, like me, believes that the ADS arms were designed, specifically, to prevent the extension of the ramp beyond a calculated level, in flight. From a purely aerodynamic point of view, lowering the ramp below that point into the airflow would have a great nose down influence on the aircraft surely ? Perhaps those with "hands on" experience might enlighten us. I hope Gopher 01 can recant his experience, I'm sure it will make good reading. Your #968 sounds like something I too experienced with the "hooligans" in my time, and a Captain more concerned with getting airborne, than configuration. Perhaps, as I was only SLF as an AGE, I have no right to comment, but my little pink bod, was part of that days cargo!

Smudge:ok:

[Bts70]

Regards ADS.


For that to operate didn't you have to be airborne (ground checks could be c/o using the ground test switch STBD side in the freight bay), door up & locked & ramp open to make the micro switch on the arms?


if you wern`t attached I am sure you could power into the airflow but like smudge assume that the change in A/C attitude would lead to some puzzled looks at the front end!

[ancientaviator62]

Coffman,
welcome back. The RAF snatch system was totally different from the US Fulton Rescue and Recovery System. This was developed during the Vietnam war to pluck downed flyers from the jungle. I watched a display at Lyneham, using a dummy, and it looked horrendous. But if 'charlie' was after you it was by far the better option. There is at least one video on youtube I believe.
Our snatch was cobbled together for Op Corporate to pluck a small bag of mail etc NOT personnel ! We used the high tech method of rope strung between two poles the US used a helium balloon. The SAS used to use helium balloons as markers when we dropped to them in the jungle.
Hope this helps

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/ALMVIEWFAMDAY_zpsf3b5e7c5.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/ALMVIEWFAMDAY_zpsf3b5e7c5.jpg.html)

Close up of the 'ADS' arm. I think we are all agreed on the need for them to be connected when opening the ramp and door in flight. Also I do not think any of us can envisage a scenario where there is a need to lower the ramp below the horizontal intentionally in flight. Cock ups are quite another matter but not one of which I have any personal experience !

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ...

Many thanks for the brief on the RAF Post Bag 'snatch' arrangement ... all understood :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Good Evening to all Herc Thread Members ...

Behind the scenes our good friend, Dragartist, has been sending quite a few interesting pics to me and AA62. As he's about to kick-off for a spot of R&R he has asked that we share the pics with you all. Hopefully my image conversions are up to standard ... where AA62 has kindly offered to add a bit more technical content. Mind you, if Drag manages to pack his swimming shorts in time ... he might just pitch up :ok:

Here is the first pic ... which I believe could be described as "dropping a bollock" :ooh:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/APFC_zps618d65fe.jpg

Over to you AA62 ...

Coff.

PS. Mind you ... I thought someone had been on some clandestine mission to capture a Soviet Soyuz Capsule when I first clapped eyes on the pic :}

[bythebackdoor]

Ah, the sequential SPAD, dropped a few of these, but only the CSUPS version on to land.:ok:

[Dengue_Dude]

Did you guys notice the Yank SF aircraft had two external tanks on each wing . . . that must be obscene.

Bordering on 80,000 lb fuel (average fuel flow 5,000 lb/hr) and the bloody thing was being in flight refuelled . . . NO!!!

[ancientaviator62]

by the back door,
the SPAD was on the way in as I was on the way out. AS you have dropped several, any pics for use to peruse of that or anything to do with the 'K' ?

[ancientaviator62]

Dengue Dude,
a lot of fuel in the 'K' tanker too ! 63000 LBS 'upstairs' and 28000 lbs 'downstairs' and we could refuel too. But we could not top up the fuselage tanks of course. The comparison is unfair as their fuselage could be used for all manner of things whereas on the 'K' tanker...........

[dragartist]

DD, Are you sure the additional tanks on the US SF machine are wet. I used to wonder how the TR1 took off with all that fuel in it's "underwing" tanks!

[Dengue_Dude]

Yep they are wet.

The Iranians (pre-Ayatollah) had some too - definitely wet, but don't think they are the full (sic) 9,000 lb ones, I think they are slightly smaller in volume.

TR1/U2-R -- oh yes, different kettle of fish altogether with mission equipment.

[dragartist]

Thanx for putting the photo up Coff. I am cr@p at this sort of thing. I could just about manage to programme PADS and JPADS.


Well spotted By the Back door. Even to note the sequential iteration.


This really was an interesting project with many ground breaking and innovative features both procedurally and technically. Not everything was brilliant and a few issues remained unresolved or less than satisfactory. It gave the opportunity to test a few concepts that spun off into future systems.


Firstly we had a proper Design Authority and CDA in Boscombe Down AED and Irving Air Chute Company. A Chinese wall between the T&E Organisation. The project was a fine example of team working and collaboration. An early CTT and forerunner to the LTPA


I had first seen the platform at CAP Toulouse in 1995. It was supposed to be cheep but turned out not so. The CSUPS was just a spin off and not part of the requirement but enabled us to undertake trials and systems development and most importantly training and currency without the need for a water DZ. One of the early sequential drops onto land was at West Frugh. I admit to jumping out of my skin. The second platform landed, I turned around to say to my colleagues "well that worked" when there was an almighty bang, and then another. I thought the aircraft has gone through the sound barrier or crashed. But it was just the delay of the thunder after the lightening as these flat bottomed wood, foam and fibre glass boards slammed onto the hard concrete.


The platform separated from the Soyuz Capsule after extraction. It came down under the 7ft extractor and was required to sink on ops. All attempts to make it sink failed.


The 7ft extractor became the Mk2. strengthened to resist more drops into salt water that the Mk1 which was close to the limit. A sequential deployment bag was developed and the bomb rack bag redesigned to stow a longer strop (the rationale was to use the 7ft in lieu of the S80 for AGE with a very forward load - Why? No one realy knows other than we had an eye on using this for CDS on the J as an alternative to the retrieval winch.


The requirement was for two loads, Split (separate DZs) or Sequential AML had strengthened the old ULLA ARM but retained the 3 levers but we only had two lengths of Bowden operating cable.


The sequence went thus: Bomb rack activated (not sure if we still had the Safety line to remove or it had already gone by then - another daft legacy carry over from the stone age). Good extractor - pull the lever having removed the safety pin. The first platform is extracted. A static line deploys the main parachute. A second static line pulls a curved pin out of a Kevlar loop to separate the Soyuz Capsule from the board. Attached to the front of the fist platform is the extractor for the second (if it were a sequential) If it was a split a second extractor is loaded in the bomb rack. Pull the second lever to release the load. If we were quick I think they would finish up 300 yds apart.


the advantage over the previous ME system was that the load was fully restrained by Skydel and the ARM without the need for additional chains or any grunting or climbing to shift the load. Two could be dropped without going round again and compromising the DZ location.


The spin offs were in the opportunities to test and develop the Nora Batty Static Lines. The DB34 bag for the SC15, The release for CDS from the J was a development of the Kevlar loop based on a 3 ring release.


Also note the floatation buoys for the Capsule.


Ping pong balls were used to get the SG of the contents about right


All of the components were reusable. Apart from the bungee cord that was an essential element of every AD System.


I never saw the system adapted for the J or A400M but feel certain this was achievable but probably not with the state of the latches and springs on the dash 4a in the state they were. Would probably have needed a bigger extractor to overcome the breakout loads. This would have been too much and would have pulled the table cloth from under the crockery and cutlery. As nearly happened with one of the cradle developments to make the platform sink.

[smujsmith]

Coff # 986,

Nice post of Dragartists shot. From a techie point of view I would have to guess the aircraft is somewhere near bay 34 ish, with the bund in the background. There's some good stuff coming in now.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
thanks for the explanation of the SPAD pic. As I said after my time.
This pic is I think my view of a run in to a DZ when I was on 48. Perhaps Brian the Nav or someone else can identify the place.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000059A_zps7ee45062.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000059A_zps7ee45062.jpg.html)

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
your mention of the safety line kindles old memories. For those who may not understand it was a nylon cord which ran from forward of the load, through the 'D' rings of the extractor parachute which was suspended from one of the bomb racks above the ramp. This line then returned back to forward of the load. The reason for it was to prevent premature extraction of the load should the extractor leave the bomb rack prematurely .
It was (carefully) removed by the ALM at the two minutes to drop point.
We had a lot of trouble with the bomb racks in the early days, due to lack of spares and very misleading installation instructions. Add to this not every a/c had a full set and you can well imagine the potential for 'gotchers' as they were swopped from frame to frame.
Part of the load installation procedure was a test of the bomb rack with extractor and in the very early days this had to be witnessed and signed for by the Air Eng.
If the ALM got a late two min call or was nervous and rushed then the nylon line could very easily snag. You then had a real problem !

[CoffmanStarter]

Drag ...

Many thanks for your explanation :ok:

I guess I'll have to wait until you return from your holiday ... but I have a tech question to ask ... I know ... how sad am I ;)

When dropping fuel/liquid how do you inhibit/dampen the momentum of the liquid as the load transitions from the horizontal (on exit) to the vertical in the drop. Would I be right in assuming that the "container/bladder" has some flexibility that could offer some damping ... but even so there must be quite some forces at work in this config :eek:

Best ...

Coff.

PS. More pics from Drag's archive latter ... once we've helped AA62 out with his DZ ID :ok:

[Brian 48nav]

Guess what I just found in my collection of old RAF maps?

I still have a complete set of the LL route from Changi to Kangar Kahang DZ and back.


Your photo' shows the coast just north of Mersing - the last turning point before the run-in to KK was the island in the bay just to the right, and away to the left beyond the headland you can just make out the previous turning point, Pulau ( Island ) Sri Buat. If it wasn't so hazy Pulau Tioman would be visible directly behind the ramp. It was somewhere in that area that the wrecks of HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse ( think I've got the names right ) could sometimes be seen.


I've driven down that coast road towards Mersing and Singapore a couple of times on holiday - the last in 2002.When our new house project is over we have promised ourselves a long overdue holiday in Malaysia!

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
It looks like the load on the SPAD system is an APFC (Air Portable Fuel Container ) or a variant thereof. The inherent flexibility in the rubber absorbed the various forces involved in the drop. If it could withstand being dropped by ULLA then it would survive almost anything. The APFC was designed to provide instant fuel stocks in remote locations for a/c, vehicles and in particular helis.
No doubt someone can elaborate.

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
I hoped my question would bring you forth once more ! Thank you for the information. Now where are your pics ?
Last time I went to KL we were staying at our son's place in Singapore. He was out there for over four years with his job. We decided to go to KL for old times sake. Instead of flying we took the train. First class of course ! It was such a great change from flying even if it took 7 hrs.