Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules

[Dougie M]

On another (ahem) Eastabout I was with a crew rendered unserviceable in Guam. We were accommodated in the Okura hotel which was overrun with tiny Japanese people all visiting the place where grandpa never made it WWII. Even the staff were mostly of Nipponese persuasion and addressed you in short microbursts of speech. Our GE a veritable fair haired man mountain worked through the night to restore Albert to flying status. The wind down beers reserved for him were left untasted and it was decided that the rest of the crew would leave him to his well earned kip and go up to Andersen Field to negotiate an onward itinerary. Grope were already on top of it having received the GEs engrep and we found that we were expected to launch in two hours. Best get the GE up here we thought and phoned the hotel. Planning and prepping were complete when the GE arrived blinking in the daylight.
"Worst experience of my life" he reported." I was well out of it when there was a hammering at the door. I opened it and there was nobody there. Then I looked down and a tiny Japanese wearing a khaki safari suit screamed at me. "Orificer say, You go NOW" I thought I was in the Bridge on the River Kwai dream and I'm only just over it"
He had his own wind down slab in Honoruru.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/7d693556-894b-4302-a78e-7c86755b2939_zpsj6ycmfkb.jpg

[Vasco Sodcat]

Dougie,

Is that Stingray floating in the Dead Sea with you?

[Dougie M]

Vasco
Yes. Ex Eastern Union Sep 89. He left the water 10 secs later when the "healing salts" got through to his flux afflicted fundament.

[Brian W May]

I remember the Okura well - didn't it have long thin ponds full of enormous carp leading up to the entrance . ?

Where's a thunderflash when you need one ?

[Flyer Flier]

Hello again all,
I saw all the 1st April 98th RAF anniversary stuff this week and it reminded me of where I was on 1st April 1988 on the 70th anniversary.
So, I thought I would pop up my photos of the memorable trip we undertook on that day when I was down on 1312 Flt at MPA. We decided to mark the anniversary with a flight down to South Georgia to deliver the mail by air-drop to the Royal Marines at Grytviken. The crew let me invite along my friend and colleague Chris who was the Engineer Officer on the 23 Sqn Phantom detachment. We had both started Cranwell on the same day four years previously and been through training together on the same courses, so it was a nice co-incidence to be both posted down there at the same time.
The first pic shows the 1312 Flt building, complete with its mortar gate guard left over from the battles a few years earlier.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia11_zpsxvd32iwa.jpg
The next pic below is taken from our Q aircraft pan at "Albert Square" looking across towards the ATC tower and the fire crew to the second Hercules pan.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia10_zpseuht3tes.jpg
This next shot will have been taken over on the cross runway between the hangars of the Phantom det, where one of their aircraft has just landed and taken the RHAG with a problem. In the distance across the other side of the main runway is the white visiting Tristar in front of the large Timmy hangar.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia13_zpst9kn0ers.jpg
So off we go and from the air you can see why the accommodation blocks at Mount Pleasant were called the "Death Star" from the Star Wars film. Albert Square and ATC can just still be seen the other side of the airfield next to the lake in the top left of the pic.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia12_zpsh5z9kb9n.jpg

It's a long flight down to South Georgia from MPA, so Andy the co-pilot checks we haven't fallen asleep yet back on the bunk.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia4_zpss7hr7fam.jpg

Finally the awesome scenery of South Georgia hove into view.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia15_zpsobhd2beh.jpg

Certainly very impressive from our vantage point.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia14_zpswqsnfcji.jpg

George the loadie makes sure he films it all for posterity up in the cupola.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia1_zpsy3dtkbxf.jpg

Now that is what you call a glacier.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia8_zpsrjjyewox.jpg

And there is Grytviken, looks like a good place to get away from the rest of the world.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia7_zpswc7niaip.jpg

Down the back the Air Dispatcher prepares the first drop of the mail out the rear door. You can see one of the internal fuel tanks of the tanker fit making it crowded down the back of XV203.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia6_zpseogjsjt6.jpg

As we headed around for another pass, the Marines in their RIBs collect the first drop. As it was also April fools day, we couldn't resist attaching a bunch of empty bluey letters to the outside of the next drop, which fluttered down as if the mail had burst open causing the RIBs to rush around frenziedly until they realised the joke,.... I'm sure that wasn't standard RT phraseology they used afterwards.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia5_zpsjkrmhhfs.jpg

After the skipper Laurie brought us around for the last drop we headed off for a quick look around the local area. It was then time to say our good-byes and set off homeward for the long return flight to MPA.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia9_zps7fmhlwl0.jpg


Back at Albert Square it was time for tea and medals and a photo to mark the occasion. In fact Chris on my left in the pic has only recently retired as an Air Vice Marshal. It's nice that 32 years since we joined up together, we have still kept in touch.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia16_zps8xzr9ycj.jpg

Finally an appropriate Falkland Islands sunset shot, which I am sure anyone who has been down there will fondly remember.
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/airclark/georgia3_zpsovjiyp9d.jpg

All the best for now and I will dig out some other trips with the K when time and computer allow. Cheers Steve

[CoffmanStarter]

FF ... Simply outstanding photos, many thanks for sharing with us :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

FF,
brilliant pics thanks.

[Wander00]

Thanks for the memories - signed for those buildings from the contractors in Jan-May 86

[Jackw106]

Major David E. Sutherland, USAF Retired talks about his time flying the C130



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyBFbZwRn5k&list=PLKS9r7PDrK_aV42TqG6oXUTNVODQhhNo0&index=13&nohtml5=False

[ancientaviator62]

Some of the Hercules posters might like to look at the link on the Canadian Hercules fire thread. And get out the prayer book !

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
were we at risk in the same way as the Canadians in my previous post ?

[Lou Scannon]

Phew! Finally worked my way to the end of this saga on Fat Albert so can now comment...fascinating.

I joined via No 1 course at Thorney, did a tour on 48 in Changi, back to the OCU to instruct (the blind leading the near blind) thence to Lyneham to work in TFS (known to some as "That's Saturday f****d"). I see there are photos in the thread of the dreaded Jatfor that I was involved with.

I had just been moved into Wing when the great chop started and I went off to Farnborough.

I think for all my time the aircraft it was still in the s**t and sawdust paint scheme and without either the extension fitted or that big nozzle thing on the roof.

Not for me the South Atlantic or all the fantastic jobs the later guys (and girls!) did. It embarasses me that most of the things I did were more in the nature of swanning round the world at no expense to the individual. I still attend service functions and am one of the few without any form of medal.

However, I still had a great time and must now dig out some slides that I took of the early days.

Lou

[CoffmanStarter]

Hello and welcome Lou ...

I'm sure we'd all love to see some of your early photos ... If you need help posting pics drop me a PM with your eMail address and I'll gladly help if needed. :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

[fergineer]

I think I can help smuj to answer were we having the same problems as the Canadians, no we were not, I as an electrician took great care to ensure there were no signs of chaffing on cables and if we did find any it was a fleet wide check to ensure nothing else was amiss.

[ancientaviator62]

Fergineer,
thank you for your very reassuring reply. The thought of that very high pressure flame erupting in the cargo compartment gives me the shivers.

[Dougie M]

Whilst on a low level transit to Lossiemouth with a small detachment it became more turbulent as we approached the Lake District. Unperturbed and clocking no adverse "G"counts we pressed on but elected to fly up the A9 rather than pick our way through the Highlands. It was still quite bumpy and the Loadie reported that a fine mist of what appeared to be hydraulic fluid was visible in the booster pack area. A common sense module kicked in and the rest of the trip was completed at medium level. There were no sources of ignition down the back to worry about but when wiping the fluid off the car we were carrying it was amazing what effect it had on the paintwork.

[CoffmanStarter]

Does anyone know if our good friend Smudge is OK ... I've not seen his 'Green' for a little while ... He is usually a regular on here ... Hoping everything is OK :ok:

[smujsmith]

Coff,

Thanks for your concern sir, there's life in the old dog yet (as they bark) ! Been a bit diverted with a few probs recently, but not related to this thread. AA62, apologise for failing to answer, same probs I'm afraid, though Fergineer has covered it nicely, thanks Fergi ! I hope all you regulars are in good form, from recent posts it seems there's still some areas to be discussed. I have a question for those who go back, way back on the K fleet. I well remember at Colerne 1971/73 working alongside Marshalls of Cambridge blokes, who seemed to be doing all the structural repair work as we carried out the Base 3 servicings. As I ended my time with Albert, Marshalls featured heavily in our pushing Albert through minor servicings in AES (Imagine, my first job in the RAF was a brand new, ex Halton appo on Albert, my last, the team chief doing the same work). I'm sure that all of us involved with Albert were also aware of the input of the Marshalls chaps. Anyone know why Marshalls got so involved, and, any interesting stories ? Here's a start. They had a guy at Colerne circa 1972 called Dave Stern, he was a big lad, very big. His huge beard, beer belly and sockless sandals meant he was automatically labelled the "Jesus freak". To my knowledge he never had a religious bone in his body, the beard coming from having served with the RN. He spent most of the daylight hours sleeping in our tool stores, thus enabling him to take his place on the night shift (as overtime) and seemed happy in his work. I know the Marshalls lads did some great work to keep Albert going, and their efforts should be acknowledged in the long story in RAF service. I declare no conflict of interest with MOC, they never paid me a penny !

Smudge :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Good to hear from you Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
no apology needed and welcome back.

[smujsmith]

Thanks Gentlemen,

Now, having woken me up I wonder if anyone (Dougie) can tell me if the Loran Nav system was ever really used by Navigators in a serious way, or whether it was more something to keep the GE away from the bar ? From memory, we had a Doppler, Loran and the Omega fitted as standard in the days when Dougie and myself visited the antipodes 8 October 1994 and beyond. I always had the impression that Loran was a hangover from the days of sails and rigging, especially with those whacky charts etc. Many a Nav snagged Loran during my time as a GE, yet we never got lost as a result of its failure. I especially remember a four hour stint at Gatow replacing boxes and trying to ascertain the serviceability of the system, what a bloody waste, Mon Cheri beckoned !!!!! I would be the first to suggest that the quality of our Navigators far outweighed the need for Loran, but did I need those hours at the airfield fixing it ? I doubt I ever actually fixed one anyway.

Meanwhile, on a trip mid way between ASI and MPA our Captain ;

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/9168637f5b91228e2e192449f5d95463_zps633f012c.jpg

Was celebrating his Birthday. Note the Birthday cards on the coaming. Loran must certainly have been used for those long overwater legs from back them ?

[Dougie M]

Hi there Smudge. Welcome back
Loran had its uses and Gatow was not a place where it was used. When beyond VOR and TACAN range on the way across the ocean, especially the North Atlantic it was the only long range aid we had in years gone by. You had to remain within 10 miles of track which was not easy at the edge of cover in skywave and if you went 25 miles off track you had to regain ASAP. Over 45 miles and you needed permission to proceed and severe digging when you got back. If you understood the kit it was good. I have seen Navs cock up chain changes in mid ocean and one spectacular event with a lady Nav who lost ALL the signals. I don't remember snagging the kit and I never used it to go to Germany. There was no LORAN cover in the South Atlantic. There was Astro and Omega and Litton INS.




http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/34472065-7aca-463f-a91c-5643fafc05d6_zpssx33zxxi.png

[Don Coyote]

Smuj,

Given that the Doppler used to run off at high speed over a smooth sea and that we could never get high enough to be above cloud for a decent sun shot, I was always grateful fur as much long distance nav kit that you could provide!

Still amazes me, in this age of gps on phones, that as little as a quarter of a century ago that the likes of Dougie were still doing sun shots!

[Don Coyote]

Dougie,

Were you the staff nav on the STS trip where H....y B......e tried to demonstrate turn back at low level?

[CoffmanStarter]

Just a quick technical question if I may ...

Was the RAF Herc K ever fitted with Omega Nav ... The last of the Hyperbolic Nav Kit prior to the arrival of GPS :8

Just interested ...

[Don Coyote]

Coffman,

When I started on the fleet, in 1986, it had Doppler, Omega, Loran, twin VOR, Twin Tacan and ADF and navigators were still regularly doing star/sun shots. Single IRS arrived in the early 90s and GPS was voodoo magic that arrived some time later.

[CoffmanStarter]

Cheers DC :ok:

[Dougie M]

Hi Don.
I was on the sortie but not with H. My twin R*n C*****s was tho and came back quite white. The student Eng had not operated flaps with speed so a steep approach to the Welsh countryside ensued.
Coff. The kit all had uses but also had limitations., mostly interpretation. Decca was a pig along a base line and you could hardly see the needles they were spinning so fast. Omega needed good cover and heading south the position lines were nearly all along track and only one weedy cross track signal. Some Navs used to discard weak signals and that mostly took out your fixing line. Loran was OK in the North Atlantic and North Pacific but in the South Atlantic there was only astro 3 star fixing to start. Half the sky was blanked by the refuelling probe, the VHF aerial and the Cupola. I have asked a captain to steer off heading till I could see the star I was looking for. Happy days.




http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/6c1426a0-c800-47b9-8d5d-bd8c7a773107_zpsk50aprli.jpg

[Don Coyote]

Dougie,

I had forgotten about the Decca, it was no longer used, when I joined the fleet, other than the instruments were used to fill he holes that would have been there if they took it off the aircraft.

I couldn't remember if it was you or R.n, I was the student captain stood behind H...y when it happened. A very subdued flight back to base!

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Doug ... Simply fascinating ... Modern Day kit takes all the fun out of Navigation in my book :ok:

Decca Moving Map ... I think the Herc was so equipped (but I can't find the pic we had some time back on the thread) ... :eek:

[Don Coyote]

A night in Gib resulted in a RN Lynx taking pictures of us during the departure!

[Dougie M]

Don.
Out near Europa Point. Almost in Spanish airspace but a good pic.
Coff. The Decca roller map was used mainly for low levels and (for Smudge) it was used for the Berlin corridor. I never used it on the Herc but when the Doppler A/A box failed it was swapped over with the roller map box.

[ancientaviator62]

Doug,
ah the famous Doppler box swap. Did many a one for the Nav. My extensive tech training was not wasted ! I have swopped the IRCM box as well.

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
I posted the pic of the Decca Nav so if it has disappeared from the thread let me know and I will try to post it again.

[Brian 48nav]

I'm reluctant to comment, especially having had the pleasure of meeting Dougie for the first time at A***** C******'s 70th birthday bash on Saturday! Dougie with his 11 tours and me with my paltry 2, but why had your nav even switched the Loran on going to Gatow?

The only excuse I can think of is that maybe the next task from Gatow was to be across the North Atlantic without routing via Lyneham. I always found Loran C dead easy to use and on the odd occasion after losing one chain and before successfully gaining the other ( perhaps due to atmospherics or something ), I sat back and enjoyed the latest drink that the ALM gave me!

Decca, particularly the flight log, what a waste of space! I only ever used it while attached to JATE as it was good for track alignment in high-level parachute drops.

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
I have previously recounted a blind drop trial, with paras, with Decca that was not a success ! The trial was discontinued.

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/BILLTHEHERCCO_zps40029f8c.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/BILLTHEHERCCO_zps40029f8c.jpg.html)

Reposted the pic of the Decca Flight Log which did not last long on the 'K'.

[Hueymeister]

Decca....great for ships at sea....

[Dougie M]

This aid was definitely for ships or just taxying in fog. At 25k feet we would blithely commit the "hooligans" to a HALO jump based on Decca before GPS came along. One snag with Decca was that at altitude (it was a surface aid) it used to slip lanes so just before releasing the brave boys in IMC the Nav would call Lyneham for a radar fix to confirm his position. We flew down a purple line mostly and called the lights on a red line crosscut. It worked quite well but there was no Decca where you needed it. The homemade chart shows where Fox Covert DZ should be.


Brian 48. Good to see you at the do. I wrapped Art's present in a cut off flying suit leg to remind him of what he did to mine in Akrotiri!


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/19c7e8d7-eb99-4d1b-a455-c932a2548352_zpsqerqnows.jpg

[DeanoP]

Dougie an old photo of you in pre- Omega days. You look wonderfully in control.

Reference your comments about straying off track in N.Atlantic and being violated. I can recall only two extreme tracking errors. One a VC10 and the other a C130. IIRC the VC10 navigator was flying with the compasses set to Directional Gyro(DG) and had a South Latitude (instead of North) selected on the Earth Rate Drum. The Herk nav used Variation instead of Grivation to correct the navigation computers. These mistakes introduced large heading errors. Luckily, both were westbound and the errors turned the a/c north towards Greenland. I believe the errors became apparent when a very large CB in the shape of Greenland was seen on the CCWRs.
Track keeping on the C130 in my day (until 1995) was a lot easier when the magnetic compass was switched to Gyro (DG) and gyro/grid technique was flown. The accuracy of the magnetic compass, although swung accurately to .1degree, depended largely on the accuracy of the magnetic variation and how adept you were in keeping the local variation updated as you stooged along. The variation lines plotted on the charts are a mean and change position slowly with time as does the position of magnetic north. Local variation can also be radically different from that printed on the chart. In the DG mode there is no magnetic influence on the compasses and hence no magnetic error.
The introduction of Omega and its digital computer, allowed the Azimuth of the Sun, (or other heavenly bodies) to be computed in degrees True to within an accuracy of .1 degrees. The a/c heading , using the periscopic sextant, aligned on the bodies azimuth, could be read to about the same accuracy. With the appropriate corrections to convert this to a Grid heading, this reading would be compared to the C12 DG readout. Any wander of the gyro from the correct reading would be removed and a gyro wander rate established which would then be tuned out, hopefully to zero by altering the C12 latitude drum (Earth Rate). It was possible, during the flight, to get the DG wander rate less than 1 degree/hour.
Astro shots were also made more accurate in DG mode because there was no ‘hunting’ of the C12 as it annunciated to refine the magnetic heading. (This reduced heading acceleration error. For example a turn of .5degrees at 300kts would give an astro error of 8nm) It was normal practice to go to DG, when not flying gyro, whilst shooting astro to alleviate this error.
The Doppler drift and G/S, I believe were quite accurate, disregarding surface motion of the waves, as was the Along/Across (AA) track computer. The A/A computer could be fine tuned trackwise by setting a false track to compensate for the track error You could not do anything to the Distance to Go counters to make them more accurate but then the most important thing was correct tracking. The Latitude/Longitude computer was a disaster and could rarely be trusted, it spent most of its time running away in any direction at about 1000kts!
Before the introduction of Omega the azimuths of Stars/Planets had to be laboriously extracted from the Sight Reduction Tables or from graphs where it was difficult to get the required accuracy and you very often used to introduce errors into an otherwise accurate gyro. It was very laborious and I only did it when strictly necessary

(The alignment of the sextant on the a/c centreline was always checked before a major navigational routes by checking that the fin of the a/c was in the right place!!!: 180.4 degrees if I remember correctly).

[ancientaviator62]

Doug,
the blind drop trial I referred to was abandoned because of lane jumping.
And yes we were dropping the SAS from 25000ft too. Boscombe normally monitored the trials but the powers that be wanted this done using Decca alone because if done for real we would not have radar assistance nor would we be talking to anyone !

[Descend to What Height?!?]

IIRC Snoopy had a Ferranti INS in the van in the cargo hold that the Met Office boffins would use to get accurate wind data after post flight number crunching. Some time in the early 1990s this was replaced with a Honeywell laser ring gyro INS, and the nav had a feed. Soon after this was joined by a NAVSTAR xr(?) 5 GPS. Again mainly for scientific use, the nav was able to enter way points and use it for basic navigation. Unfortunately I have had a look through the old albums and I don't have a photo of the nav station.

[OmegaV6]

Late 70's / early 80's ... I was on a 6A call out taking the water based hooligans and one of their ribs across the pond, doppler was being a pig and the LORAN then failed, just as we hit some crap weather so preventing astro ... Nav soon stated he was "unsure of his position" and suggested a diversion as things would only get worse .. not an unreasonable suggestion ... ALM relayed this to the passengers, and just as we started to negotiate with Gander ATC a piece of paper with a very accurate position and time was handed to the Nav.... hooligans had fired up some equipment which included GPS ... this continued every 10 minutes for the next few hours as we headed West !! On chatting to their leader he simply said he only had clothes for hot places and he was buggered if he was going to Kevlavik in the winter !! It was some years later that we got anything like decent Nav kit !!

I also vaguely recall ( and I think it was Dougie) doing a "Bulls Eye" competition with the nav using a GPS cobbled together from external bits that involved the aerial sticking out of the very pistol hole !!... at one stage the on board judge gave the instruction to switch off the doppler to simulate failure ... which was followed by a comment along the lines of ... "switch it off ?? ******* thing has not worked since start up!!" :)

[Brian 48nav]

I remember that apparently the VC10 had departed another UK RAF base following a night stop and the nav' said that he had not been able to sleep due to the noise all night from the summer ball.

The Herc' nav, although 'E' catted, was complimented for admitting to his error and last I heard he got to the first 'scrambled egg' rank. Top man! We did a Nairobi detachment together when an RAF party was based there to assist in the uplift of loads of pongoes after their period of training in Kenya. I, as a Flt Lt was i/c and he as a Fg Off was my No2 - talk about blind leading the blind, thank goodness we had a MAMS Fg Off who knew about discip' and charging if required!

Omega

Tankertrashnav has posted on another thread, how when his Victor Tanker was one of a pair escorting some Jaguars ( IIRC ) across the pond their nav aids didn't work due to calm sea and astro was out and the single seat guys were giving the four Victor navs fixes from their kit.

[Dougie M]

I bet Smuj regrets asking if any of this stuff worked properly. The MOD in its ignorance never replaced a Nav system until it had been finally switched off. Those in the right place when "Hand held GPS" modules came out had the edge and the American BX was the place to pick them up. The average G.I. soon found that they were too complex for the average grunt so you could get one for less than a hundred bucks in the Ft Bragg BX. A bargain in those days but they needed to be placed in a paper cup and stuck to the window frame with bodge tape to get a signal.
Just before Loran disappeared I was being checked eastbound across the pond and no "external aids" were permitted. In mid ocean the SS2 Loran chain went off the air. There was no warning published and we were under total overcast. Normally I would have emulated Brian 48nav and waited for SL3 to come up but Nav activity had to be maintained. The only thing remaining was a Consol count. A kit left over from the war and you needed to count 60 dots and dashes for a position line. Well I counted the Bushmills (MWN) broadcast and tuned in Ploneis (TRQ) to do it again when the checker said "I'm not living through that again, take your GPS position from the paper cup and we'll call it "B" maintained".


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/a5bb34e8-3516-46cb-a2cd-03a00756f7b1_zpsluxx9gpj.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

And there's me thinking an Air Plot was difficult :(

[Wander00]

Never used Decca in an aeroplane, but as part of the Towers course, in 1965 I spent 2 weeks in one of Aunty Betty's war canoes, HMS Rhyl. As part of the cruise (it was, see later). The somewhat idiosyncratic captain decided that Iain A-R and I should stand watch as Second officer of the Watch. So I am "navigating" this ship up the East Coast en route to HM opening the Forth Road Bridge, and the Decca says I am in Newcastle High Street. The "cruise" - oh yes, a week in Stockholm, and as Iain always said "they don't dance like that in Pinner"

[k3k3]

Here's a drop that didn't go so well in Hohenfels Germany on Wednesday.

Soldaten flateren bij oefening, tot groot jolijt van hun col... - Het Nieuwsblad Mobile (http://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20160421_02250155)

[smujsmith]

Wow, thanks all who have enlightened me on the "Nav kit"! Especially Dougie M. As an ex GE I can't speak for those triangular (and funny) charts you seem to have a grasp of, but I remember doing a lot of box changes to keep the Nav happy. Ahhh, at least it kept me awake eh ?

2y's UR, 2y's UB, ICUR 2 Y's 4 me !

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

K3K3
I think that Dragartist might have a few pithy remarks about the rigging of heavy loads in the USAF. We used to have a photo in the low level office labelled: A bad day for 47AD.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/fedb7565-6a81-47c0-b9cc-c6376deee91d_zpsasbsmnrd.jpg

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
I always assumed that Doppler box changes were far too routine an event to rouse the G/E from his hammock.

[ancientaviator62]

Doug,
looks like detritus from the early reefed mains trials !

[ancientaviator62]

k3k3,
thanks for the link. Seems to be a lot of 'whistlers' for so few a/c !
They also seem to be dropping from a great height too.

[dragartist]

Re #4300. I watched the vid though a link someone sent on Farcebook last night. Interesting to see so many, one after the other. In my time I tried to add a bit of science backed up with stats. I can't recall the exact numbers but MSP was not that bad in comparison with our friends over the water. What was missing was the total number of drops both sides of the pond to work out a failure rate. Certainly the trend with MSP was on the up towards the end. Probably through lack of opportunities for training. I guess if the skills are not used they are lost. I do recall a couple of freefall landrovers. One with live mortar rounds was quite spectacular (circa 1995).
Not sure if the JATE team still disappear to the quarterly malfunction conference at Ft Lee.

[November4]

Just seen this posted on The RAF Lyneham group onFB

For those that have been in a few years. my father MALM Clive Moate MSM from 70 and 10 squadrons as well as instructing and many other positions passed away on Tuesday night. I hope a few of you will remember dad. He retired in 1989.

[Dougie M]

Sadly missed Clive. Lots of good times in Rhodesia and Red Flag Las Vegas to remember. RIP

[mmitch]

Slight thread drift gents. The trials team are still at work, free falling from a C17.
First Freefall Parachute Trial Sees RAF C-17 Jump into the Tactical Arena (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/first-freefall-parachute-trial-sees-raf-c17-jump-into-the-tactical-arena-25042016)
mmitch.

[gopher01]

Doppler always brings back memories of going in under the flight deck to the avionics racks and seeing the Doppler boxes glowing quietly in the corner as ,IIRC, they were still valve powered, definetly not state of the art!

[Dougie M]

Gopher
Towards the end of the Ks life the Modgods took pity on the poor Navs, knowing that they would be disposed of with the frames. They introduced SCNS (Self Contained Navigation System) with an Inertial Nav blended with a GPS. Wot larks for Navs. No more gyro steering, no Doppler runaways (therefore no F and C comps under the rack) Tactical drop problems computed (but checked by eyeball) and all sorts of fun button pushing. Pond crossings a piece of p$$$. Routes were loaded in a cassette (about the size of a Filofax). No probs with skywave, the terminator and other nav kit pitfalls. Only snag it had was when the GPS tripped out and the poxy INS went walkabout but by then the sextant had gone too. A good time to leave.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/b58f6ec5-3de6-46c2-a187-34a80f29ad19_zps5smlarpl.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Doug ...

A question if I may. That SCNS 'Box' looks remarkably familiar ... Was it the forerunner kit to that installed in the early Puma and Chinook ? I may be wrong but I recall something called TANS ... :confused:

[ExAscoteer]

TANS (Tactical Air Navigation System) was a digital Air Data computer that took a Compass/Gyro feed, a TAS feed and a Doppler feed to produce a calculated air position.

You are right Coff that it was fitted to Helos.

We had it on the pre Mod Dominie for training the baby Navs.

This is what it looked like:

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss226/DebsEvans24/TANS_zpsnaaj2w0t.jpg (http://s578.photobucket.com/user/DebsEvans24/media/TANS_zpsnaaj2w0t.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks ExAscoteer ...

Much appreciated ... I now recognise that TANS interface ... Doug's kit looks a bit more sophisticated (to me at least) ;)

[ExAscoteer]

TANS on the Dominie was a step up from the old cog driven GPI but, because it was designed for Helos operating at 100kts (ish), when fitted to the Dom (doing 210 - 240kts at LL) it did rather have a rather spectacular drift rate!

SCNS on the other hand meant you didn't really need a Nav...





And it wouldn't buy the beers neither!

[CoffmanStarter]

And it wouldn't buy the beers neither!

Clearly down to poor initial specification :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

I remember when with the HEART visiting the civil servant who was 'i/c' the 'K' HINS upgrade. He did not seem bothered that it was two years late ! In MOD fashion the GPS and INS bits had been given to different contractors but no one it appeared had been put in overall charge. So when it did not work each contractor blame the other.

[Xercules]

I too, from MoD, was involved in the SCNS programme but, unfortunately, not early enough to be useful. There were 3 of us, exHerc - myself from DAirOps, one from Requirements (who had been in at the start) and one from STC. STC and I immediately challenged the control box arrangement which was one strategically placed for the Captain and the other for the Nav station. What we wanted to know was how the Capt would play with the box at low level. The reply was that the Co would do any necessary adjustments. Our plea to move it over to the Co fell on deaf ears despite pointing out it was a stretch over and around the throttles which would be in the Captain's hands with those and his arms further complicating the issue. No change could be contemplated.

Later I visited Cambridge with OR, again, to see if with the advent of SCNS we could do without a Nav. Again it was lack of thought on control boxes which prevented that even with the Nav by then, as DougieM pointed become not much more than a button pusher.

In contrast with that was when we started the Engine Instruments upgrade. We managed to get a large group from Lyneham involved for at least the first meeting and got many good ideas right from the start. I never did see that one through, unfortunately, but did hear flattering comparisons of that programme with the SCNS one because of the involvement. How did that one work out in the end?

But I think Procurement always preferred to work that way - don't involve operators until it is too late and thus avoid letting reality into the equation.

[ancientaviator62]

Xercules,
we were based at at Wyton for the HEART job and the latest management 'speak' there was 'tainted by experience'. Goes some way to explaining the lack of operator input in these sort of MOD projects. As for the 'J' project !!!

[Dougie M]

The Nav on the K was never quite redundant because their Airships never modded the entire fleet with the magic SCNS kit but left a few with the much detested PLGR Litton INS fit. I once watched a Nav plan a Low Level Cat trip on the Electronic Mission Planner (TAMPA,HAMPA,CHAMPS) to the "nth" degree with scores of waypoints. All this was loaded onto the Data Transfer Module (DTM) to be uploaded in the SCNS. When we arrived at the lead frame it was fitted with Litton Plugger. A lot of the Mklll SKE equipped a/c were so kitted. His little face was crestfallen. "Pick the salient features for the first half hour and free nav between them" was the best advice. We still plotted the 2 minute timing markers along the track and spookily we found out that the trip didn't need the thirty odd waypoints we left left out.
Of course the 2 pilots in the J upload all their data and as I have observed, On a major reroute due to weather, the captain was left on a base heading at low level while the co is heads down in the kit punching buttons like crazy. Navs aren't needed but it's nice to have one around when it all turns to *****.


Mission Planner





http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/95b632ef-4d8f-40e1-b919-4b7a77130e4c_zpscfpzltdl.jpg

[ancientaviator62]

I am very glad that during my time on the 'K' we had specialist Navs, Engs etc and not just to buy the beer !

[Xercules]

Iti S not just OR/Procurement either. When we tarted planning for the introduction to service of the J it was supposed to be a one in, one out - the Marshall's delivery crew would fly in a J and an hour or do later depart with the redundant K. There was then supposed to be 14 days for Eng Wg to do whatever Eng Wg did and then the new J went to work. As it was "like for like" the powers that be could not see a problem with that.

I was into Programme Planning/Management and started to produce a GANTT chart to co-ordinate it. We then held a meeting at Boscombe a major part of which was the flight clearance programme and Boscombe had a very strong desire to test everything to death before allowing mortals to use any of it. I demanded at least a plan with timescales to be able to advise the PTB when certain capabilities would be available. I then had to give the Boscombe team a detailed explanation of planning and what a loss of operational capability would mean.

At the next meeting, when asked pertinent questions about clearances etc the Boscombe reply was "Oh, we haven't been able to do that because of all this planning crap!". The mind boggled.

[smujsmith]

Hiya guys,

Purely from memory, and my experiences with 47SF running up to GW1, I understood that the SCINS (Special Configuration Inertial Navigation System) was a blend of a ring laser gyro and an INS system. It certainly never replaced the navigator, who was needed to push the memory button as the wheels hit the ground to store the touchdown point. FOM (Figure Of Merit) featured heavily in the engineering banter about the system, and, always something of a mystery to GEs of the day. Unfortunately, I was never sent on a course for SCINS, though Tucker T claims to have done some sort of course on it. I do know that the Nav who operated it on my det to the Gulf (Arthur Chapman ?) found it very useful. I'm sure that if my memories are wrong someone will put me right. Meanwhile, best to all posters on this ever lengthening thread.

[CoffmanStarter]

Very glad to see you back Smudge old chap :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Just noticed this ...

It would seem that 30 Squadron celebrated, today, 100 years since their first Operational Air Drop ... According to the Brize Station Commander.

I've posted the Twitter link to share the video capturing the drop at Keevil.

RAF BZN 30 Squadron Centenary Air Drop (https://mobile.twitter.com/StnCdrBZN/status/731428575799312384)

Anyone got a clue as to what was 'dropped' from 'what' and 'where' 100 years ago ?

[ICM]

Food and ammo during the siege at Kut, it seems:

RAF - 30 Squadron (http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/30squadron.cfm)

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks ICM :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Looks like what we used to call 1 Ton Auto but as it is a 'J' with the Brooks and Perkins Dual Rail I assume they are CDS. Someone will be along soon I hope to put me right ! Very nice video thanks. And no I was not on the Kut drop !

[ICM]

All very different from whatever was dropped at Keevil, there's a bit of info on the 1916 techniques here, if you scroll to the end of the text about Lt Murray:

https://skipperswar.wordpress.com/2016/05/13/may-13th-1916/

Somewhat similar techniques were used in support of the Allied advance on the Western Front in the last weeks of WW1, when ammunition boxes and baskets of pigeons were dropped from Corps Recce aircraft.

[dragartist]

I can't get the video to run Coff but most likely as AA62 says CDS. our UK CDS is (was in 2011) similar to US but initiated by pulling a pin from a 3 ring release with the retrieval winch. the US pulled a cutter blade incorporated into a kind of shackle trough the strap. Two rows of 48" wide baseboards hooked under a centreline vertical restraint beam.
To be pedantic the Dual Row Airdrop System (DRAS) was something used on C17 for 88" wide type Vs.
Thanks for the link @ICM I understood the parachutes were improvised from sheets. still 13 tons from a BE2 in 5 x 50 lb packages is quite a lot. Can we still do 24 one ton CDS in one go from a J?

[Dougie M]

ICM.
Read the thread. It was a bit mean putting the 50lb bag of flour on the observer's seat on the way to the drop zone and then get him to throw it overboard himself. Who shouted "Green On".
Drag.
I never liked AGE or CDS where all that happened is a barrier or strop was cut and then the load only moved if there was a 5 deg nose up attitude and climb power was set. Almost as inaccurate as throwing it off the Nav seat.
Smuj.
The only frames with SCNS were SF in the days of GWl. It still didn't stop Art from cutting off a bit of Iraq near Raffah before hostilities broke out. Missed out a waypoint I think.

[dragartist]

Well Dougie, I don't know anyone who liked AGE on the K. Certainly the despatchers did not like rigging the chains for the forward barrier or having to climb over to remove the restraint chains. they then had nothing to do save an emergency after that. Appeared a waste of a S80 drogue to break a couple of copper wires in the aft barrier.


I think we were determined to do better with CDS on the J. the Buffer was an advance and with the Centreline restraint no over the top chains required. everything else was reusable as an aim. In hindsight this became expensive and for want of a few yards of webbing we should have used the American cutter and had done


I did prepare proposals for fitting CDS to the K but it never got support with only a few years to roll.


Yes the climb technique: on the K you could give it a jolt with throttle and stick. on the J the rate of climb and jolt was just too benign under the automatic throttle control. I think we finished up at 7 degrees in the end. We did not know how to frig the computer.


The climb technique defeated the object of staying low. We did trails with the SC20 but more for wedge not CDS for some odd reason. I think the planners had assumed air superiority would have been gained before resupply was required.


I remember suggesting that we used the 7ft extractor having extended the strop to 100 ft to pull the loads positively from the aircraft with break ties daisy chained between the loads which would snap as the mains opened. The alternative suggestion was just to drop a couple of house bricks form the "bomb rack".


I remember there being significant variation in roll out time for the CARP.


Airbus had proposed driven conveyor rollers on the A400M.


When we had an issue with S80 not breaking the barriers I remember testing batches of shear wire to find that steel welding rods that were copper coated had been found. I just did not believe this. Also measuring tashengurts and developing better means of measuring porosity having been told we needed to replace all our "out of date" chutes.

[ancientaviator62]

I always regarded any successful AGE drop as an act by a benign God.
The 7% extension on the forward C of G was introduced to allow for split stick AGE drops.

[Dougie M]

I have no photos of the freight bay when rigged for split stick AGE but my recollection of the festoons of lines and rigging must have been an AD nightmare. Every effort was made to drop the load because of the palaver in unloading the aircraft after the sortie so some HTS puke could do circuits for an hour. The climb technique for 1 tons was only 300ft to 400ft approx. (500 to 600 at night)and one presumed that the DZ area was secure. The vid of 30Sqn which I also can't run looks as if the aircraft is significantly higher than the night heights.

[ancientaviator62]

The rigging of an AGE load was a fine example of the art of tying nylon cord. So much to rig =so much to go wrong. The floor angle (or the lack of it) during the drop has resulted in more than one conversation between the captain and myself.
I was much happier with the heavy drop but if I understand dragartist correctly we were nearer the limits than was realised at the time. Ignorance was indeed bliss.

[smujsmith]

"Smuj.
The only frames with SCNS were SF in the days of GWl. It still didn't stop Art from cutting off a bit of Iraq near Raffah before hostilities broke out. Missed out a waypoint I think. "

Thanks for that Doug, not often he was so unfortunate !!🙄

Smudge 👍

[Dougie M]

Smuj
He's a great bloke and a great mate but he also cut the leg off my only flying suit in Akrotiri after a serious application of kokkinelli one evening on a Free Fall det on Ladies Mile DZ. I'm not one to bear a grudge but I had to stick it on with black nasty and it took all the hair off my leg.

[CoffmanStarter]

I bet that was an interesting conversation when you requested an 'exchange' on your Flying Clothing Card ;)

[smujsmith]

Hi all,

And forgive my intrusion in what appears to be the slow run down of this thread, a great tribute to Albert. I had the great pleasure today to wander a few miles of Wiltshire countryside in the company of my former fellow GE, one Tucker Thompson. Having enjoyed a couple of "home made" pints at the Red Lion at Cricklade we ended up back home around 1500 hours. I was enjoying a nice coffee in the back garden at west "pig atop the hill" when a J flew over, and to my surprise seemed to have an external tank fitted to the Left Wing only. Mrs smudge confirmed that one side had three engines the other had two. Is there some sort of asymmetry trial going on ? Did one just drop off ? Or, is the Red Lions beer more effective than I thought ? Any ideas would be gratefully received, oh, it was a stretch as well, not the short variety. Thanks in anticipation.

Smudge 👍

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
yes the thread is slowly running down as we run out of tales, at least those we can tell on a public site ! Still it has had a very good innings since Coff first started it.
I hope those without a connection to the 'K' who have read the stories and viewed the pics have enjoyed it as much as we who have posted.

[MPN11]

As someone whose only experience of the C-130 is as a pax on a few occasions, I'll grasp this moment to thank all contributors for a fascinating read, and an insight into a corner of the RAF about which most people know absolutely sod-all ;)

Cheers, folks. :ok:

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I too would like to thank all the contributors to this very interesting and at times very funny thread. My connections with the Hercules are few; I was at Lyneham in the early days (67-69) but was on Brit Line (The name of 'Charlie 130' was banded about a lot I rememeber. I was on the 71MU team that moved XV181 off the airfield to the 'Outdoor Hangar' at Thorney Island in 1974 and then in the long hot summer '76 we dismantled it and transported it up to Marshall's of Cambridge by road. The only other time in my service was when a Herc went U/S at Orlando and I had to fly out from Odiham to help with the transfer of a Puma from one Herc to another and then down to Belize to deliver the Puma and have a night stop. On the way back the aircraft went U/S at Gander with a nose wheel steering hydraulic problem. I volunteered to help the GE and for my troubles got soaked in hydraulic oil. On return to Lyneham the captain made a phone call Odiham to my Boss to say thanks for the help. I cannot recall the captains name but he had burns on his hand from frying chips late one evening at home when the pan caught fire. Not long after that I was promoted to Sgt. I cannot recall the GE name either. - Shame on me.

Aaron.

[Null Orifice]

This thread should live on for a few years yet. There must be many who (like me!) have sat back and enjoyed the tales being told here.

My own contributions have been very few - I intend to remedy that situation in due course, once the referendum (and my holiday in Spain) is out of the way :)

I know a few of the contributors here, and probably others whose forum names have acted as a camouflage over their true identities. Some of those acquaintances and friendships go back many years, to times when we were just lads. I even knew some contributors from the days of the K's predecessor, the Hastings. While we remain on our respective perches, wherever these may be, we owe it to posterity to keep the memory of the Globegobbler alive.

I still possess one of the first version, ultra-slimjim, Hercules ties (with the silver C130) that reminds me of those (mostly) enjoyable days, on Blue Team at Colerne when the Ks arrived for Acceptance Checks with less than 20 hours in the F700. After escaping a course intended to make me into a Vulcan crew-chief :=, I was 'selected' to join 48 Squadron at Changi (that was tough, but somebody had to do it) and finally, a posting to A Line at Lyneham.
I also have one of those factually incorrect, copper engravings of a C. Mark 1 mounted with a presentation plaque given to me on my leaving the service in '77.If you have one, check out the aircraft fleet number on the aft fuselage compared to those on the nose and fin!!

Nostalgia is what it used to be, don't let it fade away!

[ancientaviator62]

Null,
your remark about the original slim jim ties prompted me to go and search. Amazing, I still have mine in a fetching shade of maroon with the silver 'K'.

[Null Orifice]

aa62,

Well found, sir!
Maroon, eh? Mine's blue, for no better reasons than:
a) I like blue,
and
b) i was on Blue Team at Colerne at the time - I'm not sure whether or not we were offered it in any other colour!

[CoffmanStarter]

Good afternoon all ...

I rather hope our thread doesn't die ... as there is so much history contained in these 218 Pages amounting to just over of 4,300 Posts ... it would be sad not to see the story of RAF Albert not being added to still further. I do accept that there may well be quiet periods but then someone will pitch-up with a story and off it will go again ... I'm sure ;)

Moving on ... Noticed (and I know it's a J) this pic of the 47 Squadron Centenary airframe ... rather impressive I thought :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/8534_zps5cicsiyi.jpg

Image Credit : MOD : 47 Squadron RAF

Best ...

Coff.

[Null Orifice]

Nice picture!

Not exactly 'covert' though!

[ExAscoteer]

Nili nomen roboris omen :ok:

[R4H]

There must be a lot of miles left on this thread.
Think about choosing a subject and generating more stories.

Strange loads.
Strange destinations.
Unusual diversions.
Unusual destinations.
Good/bad deployments.
Crossing the pond.
Crossing South Atlantic.
AAR tanking/receiving.
Spoofs, onboard or on ground.
Uckers.
Strange or unusual snags.
Unusual fixes.
Good places visited on ground.
Red Flag/Green Flag
Cope Thunder.
Extreme weather.
Favourite destinations.
Celebrities met.
Gaffs made or experienced.
Gander in the winter/summer, or anywhere else.
etc etc etc.
Add some more.

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
as an ex member of 47 Sqn (Fairford) I do like the pic. However did they get that scheme past the fun detectors. Perhaps some 'lurkers' can ransack their memories for tales and their lofts for pics to keep this going. Whatever happened to Brian48 Nav's
pics ?

[Brian 48nav]

I'm sorry to say I can't find any. Like many people I used to take slides and really regret it - it is such a faff to search through them, particularly as my filing was not as good as it should have been.

I remember flying into Saigon with Sir JC ( during his brief spell as a Flt Lt! ) and taxying in I was busy snapping away until John looked back, saw what I was doing and yelled, " Put that camera away ". Sadly, but luckily, I hadn't wound the film on after loading it, so there was nothing on it. I decided I wouldn't bother with a camera en-route after that!

On my next trip to Saigon, the skipper insisted we went into the terminal for a coffee, and he was gaily ( when the word meant happily! ) swinging his camera from his hand and snapping anything that caught his fancy! No names, no pack drill as he is a PPruner.

I expect to see both of them tomorrow at the funeral of Don Kilpatrick, who was also a skipper on 48 then. I haven't posted about Don's sad demise but if anyone needs details of his funeral please PM me.

[CoffmanStarter]

Never mind Brian ... your tried :ok:

Now AA62 ... I reckon there is one area that we haven't really explored yet for stories, and that's the Squadron Ops Desk.

Clearly I appreciate things were a bit frantic in the run up to GW1 & 2 ... but in more 'calmer' times there must be a few funny stories around the pandemonium that must have occurred at times ?

I can only imagine ... The Ops Desk phone rings ... "You need to get 'Porcelain, Sanitary, Armatage Shanks for the use of, plus 3 bags of Blue Circle cement' out to Pacific Island X ... within 72 Hrs" ... CLICK as Command hangs up (A bit of poetic licence with a story you know well). The Ops Desk then takes stock ... 2 airframes in the hanger in various stages of 'disassembly' ... 4 crews already despatched to various compass points on the planet ... other crews on leave ... and the job still needs to get done !

The Ops Planning side possibly often taken for granted ... so let's see what our contributors have to offer ;)

[Wander00]

Well, I only flew in a Hercules once after I handed over my job at RAF Mt Pleasant and before I flew north, and very enjoyable it was too, as I have found this thread. Many thanks

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
all my posted pics were on slides and were in no semblance of order. I bit the bullet and sorted them. Then they were sent to a specialist company for transfer to disk. So I was able to contribute them to this thread. It was worth doing.

[Brian 48nav]

On 48, Co-pilots and navs assisted by more junior AQMs and Air Engs would take turns manning the ops desk.

Early in '68 it was my turn and one evening just as I was locking everything up, Sqn Ldr Ops ( Wobbly Willie ) came dashing in and said' "Stay here, there's a flap on, FEAF want 3 crews to get airborne ASAP ".

"OK Sir, Do you want me to contact them?".

" No, I've done that already, they should be on their way here now - to get things rolling I want you to start preparing the logs and charts".

" Fine ", I replied, " Where are they going? ".

" I can't tell you that as it's top secret ", Says he going ever redder in the face - any one who recognises whom I am referring to, will recall that rosie complexion!

[Dougie M]

In keeping with another recent thread regarding gulf innoculations. Our crew arrived at Ops in Riyadh for the "milk run" around the Gulf Bases. (Perm any of the units to a maximum of seven sectors). The Ops bloke said "Right you guys. There's a med team here to give you your anthrax jabs." With a resigned look we went into a room where a med nurse (male, sadly) produced a hypodermic from Star Wars. There were two barrels lashed together with a T bar plunger. Anthrax and Pertussis together. It looked worse than it was. "Ta for everything" we said and made towards the door. "No" said the medic "you have to sit for five minutes to see if you have a reaction". We sat in bored silence for a few minutes then when he came back in we all bleated at him. "Right, We're off flying" we said. The nurse fled and returned with the doc. "You can't fly for three days" he said. "Now I must be going"
We went to the Ops bod and explained "OK clever clogs, what are you going to do now?" Stunned silence. The Captain said "How are you guys feeling?" "OK" we said. So off we went to fly the first leg to Al Jubail. It was a picture to watch the medics and their kit get on board. The Loadie said "If you want to get there today, you come with us. It's OK, we have medical back up" They were very quiet

[CoffmanStarter]

Brian, Doug ... That's the kind of stuff I was talking about ... :D

There's got to be loads more ... Come on Gents :ok:

[TEEEJ]

Hercules Recruiting Trailer up for sale.

Repossession Plant HERCULES RECRUITING TRAILER - Repossession Vehicles at Repossessions UK (http://www.repossessions-uk.com/repossessions/industrial-plant-farm-machinery/vehicle-details/other-uk//unknown/unknown/16890)

[stilton]

Is there a significant difference in the unimproved field performance between the standard and stretched C130 models ?

[ancientaviator62]

stilton,
I never knew such a contraption existed. How pristine the seats look. Not an oily stain in sight. What was it used for ?

[ancientaviator62]

In respect of the jabs for GW1 after a illuminating discussion with a medic friend I refused to have any of them. I also refused to order my troops to get them. They could if they wished but it was their choice.

[smujsmith]

Null #4341

Like you I also have the "slimjim" tie in blue, with silver Albert. I received it from the Lockheed rep after completing my first full year on White team at Colerne, that would be sometime in 1971. I also have the copper based etching of Albert. I wonder how many of us retained such memorabilia, whilst failing to do so for other aircraft we worked/flew on. My only other piece is a brass Vulcan, and where I got that I have no idea. As for the tie, I still wear it, when appropriate.

Coff, that's a stunning photograph, though having seen the aircraft at low level the other day, it does little to help decrease its visibility. :sad:

Well done all for pumping some new life into the old dog, let's hope it continues as R4 suggests.

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

In respect of the Hercules tie I wonder why mine is a different colour. I cannot recall how I came to own it. Perhaps I was just around when they were handed out..

[gopher01]

My main experience of SCINS was trundling in and out of Sarajevo from Zagreb and thinking what a grand job the Navs were doing with this modern piece of kit, ( well at least compared to everything else on board ). However you still came up against that well known syndrome when it broke of when trying to get spares, the reply of " You can't have that one , it's the only one we have ". On being appraised of this reply the Nav, unfortunately I can't remember his name , understandedly went moderately ballistic and pointed out to the Avionics controller at Lyneham that as we were the only people using SCINS there wasn't liable to be a great demand from anybody else and it was to be forwarded ASAP. And so it was!
There must be quite a few stories from the work that was being carried out then, I have a few more to introduce when time permits, interesting loads, interesting people, search your memories gentlemen and ladies, all are welcome!

[Null Orifice]

aa62,

I seem to remember the ties were available in several colours; apart from yours in maroon, mine was blue and I believe there was also a green one (if somebody has a better recall, please share).
My memory informs me that us groundies on Blue Team had to shell out for ours - perhaps your squadron fund may have coughed up for yours? ;)

[smujsmith]

Null,

ISTR that Lockheed presented the tie when I was at Colerne as a well done for doing 1 full year of service on the aircraft. In those days (71 a 73) I also recall Lockheed sponsoring the team Christmas do, I can't remember ever paying for beer on any of them, or making a contribution. Hope that helps.

Hiya Gopher, nice to see you back again.

Smudge :ok:

[Null Orifice]

Lockheed must have mellowed by then, smudge!

No beer, no tie, nada!

I think they were still peed off about the procurement process for the aircraft. Fred H (Lockheed rep) said we had bought them in the wrong store, presumably meaning that we had paid too much going via the US military.

[kaitakbowler]

aa62, Re the Herc trailer, back in the day (80' thru to mid 90's) we had the "Exhibition Production Flight" at Henlow, they were a motley bunch drawn from any trade, as long as you had a skill they could use your trade mattered not. They produced all the exhibits for shows inc Royal Tournament, one of which was the Nimrod fuselage they built on two 40' semi trailers, a fine bunch who went the way of contactorization in 1997.
PM

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ... Sorry old chap, but at £72k, I don't think Mrs AA62 will be signing off on your new garden shed ;)

[ksimboy]

23 years ago today, we lost XV 193 near Blair Atholl. Raising a glass to the group of friends and colleagues who went en route forever that day.

[ancientaviator62]

Null,
in respect of paying too much via the US military I always understood that to lessen the infamous 'dollar drain' they had to be bought that way.

[Null Orifice]

aa62
Thanks for your short lesson on economics :)

I knew there must have been a reason, but grey cells let me down.

Thanks.

[Dougie M]

On the question of economics, I wonder what savings were in pooling all the transport effort in one type and its engineering support. I remember when I was pre-Hercs and the major exercise was Eastern something. The Argosies from Benson (on which I was) and the Andovers whined across the west of England at altitude en route for a joint force rendezvous. Towards the east the sky was blackened by the onset of darkness and the oil and smoke from the fleet of Beverleys thundering towards us out of Abingdon. Below us the Hastings were still only taxying at Colerne. All these aircraft were to join up at different cruising speeds for a drop on Salisbury plain. The Belfasts and Britannias from Brize didn't play, thank the Lord. It occurred to me then that a common plan for Transport Command might lie in the "new" Hercules of which 66 were on order. The horrors of JATFOR were then blissfully unknown. By the time of the big redundancy in 1975 all those other types, with a few exceptions had disappeared.

[Gumpied]

From the May 1971 Changi Informer, did someone mention Uckers?

[Gumpied]

Trying to upload a .pdf file; help please!!

[CoffmanStarter]

Gumpied ...

If you PM me with your eMail address, I'll gladly help :ok:


Coff.

[ICM]

Doug: Like you, I have some memories of those Argosy/Andover/Beverley/Hastings streams, and of the mild mayhem that could ensue if going IFR when a Scatter Plan had to be executed. Anything similar in the JATFOR era?

[ancientaviator62]

At least in the JATFOR era we had only one a/c type the 'K' so the various plans need only take into account one set of speeds etc. I have no recollection of scattering as such but perhaps someone else has.

[Dougie M]

http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/0cdbc46e-f03e-4c48-8c43-b146471672cc_zpsberjxnse.jpgNot my picture.




When the K hercs assembled at Lyneham , the Airborne Forces thought that they could blacken the skies of Europe again with a Brigade strength assault using 36 aircraft. There were no separation aids like SKE then so the force was VMC capable only. Formations were under Wave Leaders and Stream Leaders and the whole caravanserai was magnificent but impractical, rather like the charge of the Light Brigade. If the stream went IMC then the Penetration Plan was called but it couldn't survive any major heading changes on the route. If VMC couldn't be regained then the stream would be ordered to scatter and the sky became a very dangerous place to be in cloud. Some have since claimed to have sought refuge in restricted areas like the 2000ft avoid over Bath only to be told "So did I" and "Me too"
When I arrived on the fleet the Paras had lowered their sights so the assaults were Battalion strength streams of only 15 aircraft. 8 Para and 7 MSP. The Para aircraft became SKE capable but most of the MSP aircraft weren't so basically it was still a VMC capability. On an exercise mounted out of Abingdon (Dalton Barracks) we set off down round the Isle of Wight in the gloom. The lead called "Pegasus climbing 2000ft for cloud avoidance" so dutifully the rest checked in "2,3,4,5, 6, etc." When 15 piped up the lead said " Height and heading changes will be transmitted by lead without requiring acknowledgement " There was a slight pause then "2,3,4,5,..."
There wasn't much fun on long transits

[Null Orifice]

Dougie's post reminded me of the early days of the mighty streams of the 70s.

First up from the memory bank came the mental image of the day when 41 of Lynehams Ks were all crewed and running at the same time - can't remember if they all got off though. What I do remember was the subsequent whingeing from the ladies of Melsome Road AMQs who weren't impressed with the aroma of Avtur replacing that of Febreze in their lines of washing (didn't affect our washing - I lived in Chippenham at the time :E.

Next came a recollection from Exercise Long Link (?) at a glorious location in southern Turkey. All the aircraft had been allotted a particular parking spot according to their respective role and stream position. On a lovely sunny day i.e. shrieking hot, a large number (36? memory failure) started engines and set out on their aerial adventures, involving a stream takeoff. IIRC the lead aircraft aborted due to the ASI failing to indicate. It was later found to have swallowed a bee or wasp via the pitot head. The subsequent mayhem was thoroughly enjoyed by all, especially us groundies who were faced with a massive game of chess to restore all the pieces to their original parking spots :(.

[ancientaviator62]

Null,
the Turkey exercise was Deep Furrow and the similar one to Denmark was Bold Guard. How did we generate so many frames ! Respect to the ground crew.

[Null Orifice]

aa62,

What's in a name? Everything, if you have a memory like mine!
Thanks for the nudge in the right direction.
As for the number of frames generated - perhaps the 12 hour shifts played a significant role in this?

It was somewhat strange that, in those days, the powers-that-be saw fit to introduce the 12-on, 12-off shift pattern for exercises, heightened alert states, etc - but when we mooted the same time periods for our standard three-shift system on the LSSs it was ruled out for so-called 'safety reasons'.

Most of us groundies who were at Lyneham, post-48 Sqdn Changi period, enjoyed (for a while, anyway) the old-style Britannia shift system with a 23-day cycle that commenced on a Wednesday:7 x 12 hour days on shift, including the weekend, then 6 days off!!, followed by 5 x 12 hour nights, then 4 days off. Weekends were covered by splitting the 7-day shift, with a smaller party covering the 'swing' shift overnight Sat & Sunday.

Not always a bed of roses, however. During the 6-off, some of us were 'duty spanner' in case some of the flyers fancied some pool time and went u/s down route. I clocked up many frequent flyer miles that way, although British Airways refused to accept my (mainly, Herc, VC10,Brit) vouchers:*

[Dougie M]

Null
Every cloud, as they say. I was on 6Hr standby when there was a call out to take a hydraulic flush team to a crew needing "pool time" in the one below. As befits the efficiency of Group, when we suggested the quickest way to the beleaguered frame on a pacific island was to fly the gyro route over the pole from Bardufoss to Elmendorf it was turned down because they had already booked us into Gander. With the eng team all assembled we then launched across the pond. Another night stop was in Sacramento and a third in Hawaii. Such a drag. We were all good mates by the time we arrived on the island, with a healthy kitty and a fund of top of climb stories. What a sorry bunch met us though. They were half way through a global trip and had already been out twice as long as planned and had broken down everywhere.
Well the boys got stuck into the flush and eventually the filters didn't look like we were panning for silver in Nevada. The crew kept the team supplied with fluids and scoff till it was all done and we repaired to the Regent (Apparently it's cr@p now) for a libation. At this stage the stranded captain asked us if we wanted the rest of his global because of low morale in his crew who wanted to go home. This time Group did agree and the following day we planned to go to Whenuapai and the global crew prepared to take our frame home. (It had run like a sewing machine on the way out). Whilst changing all our kit over - and nicking their route bag - one of the eng team said "can we go with you?" which sadly we couldn't do. There were still unexpected good times in these 6Hr call outs though.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/2fe3154e-0de2-4bb5-a2e3-1a19819ab2f1_zps8kjmmfcy.jpg

[Null Orifice]

Looks nice, Dougie!

My swansong from A Line (and the RAF) was also supposed to be a global, in a westerly direction, BUT --- somebody in the ground engineers section burgled my route :suspect: !

Instead, I was given a 'Cable' which, courtesy of two west Africa stopovers, included several rapid visits to the facilities in my hotel room in J'burg, followed by a trip to the pharmacy across the road for some jollop (2 parts sand to 1 cement). I was given (actually paid for!) a beaker-full of gunk to drink on the spot and a large bottle to take away. The man in the white coat also advised me to visit my GP on my return to Chipnum.

On hearing that I had obtained the magic elixir, I was approached by the captain who, rather sheepishly, asked if I had obtained some anti-trots stuff. The remaining jollop was shared around the crew and seemed to do the trick for most.
However, one of our two flight engineers failed to appear in the hotel lobby on the morning of our departure and was left in the care of the Air Attache (IIRC). After several days recovering, he eventually returned to UK via civvy airline.

[smujsmith]

Null - "My swansong from A Line (and the RAF) was also supposed to be a global, in a westerly direction, BUT --- somebody in the ground engineers section burgled my route ! " - I doubt that a Ground Engineer ever took a route from an SVC, most GEs would be more than grateful for the rest mate ! Wherever the destination, after a couple of years, a route is a route ........ I never did a global in 7 years as a GE, perhaps my ugly mush didn't appeal to my boss. I did loads of Banner A and B's over Christmas grants though, being one of only a few GEs who lived on "the patch" at the time. And not to forget the aircrew who flew those trips too. I left my job as a GE because of an airborne accident that meant I could not do my job properly anymore. I was never given a a"swansong" and never believed I was entitled to one. Here's a story from my time as a Sgt rigger on A line B Shift;

I arrived back on the Herk fleet and was posted to ALSS B shift which was one of the best postings I had in 30 years of service. After a few months on shift, our shift Flt Sgt asked if anyone was interested in doing an SVC slot on a Goose flyer. A night stop Goose bay and back. The trip would take place in our off shift time, so basically, it was giving up my own time. No one volunteered, so, as the new boy, I did. Anyway, the night before the trip set off the GE who I was accompanying called me and said that the route had been revitined, we were to take an engine change team to Bermuda to recover a broken frame. With a B line engine change team on board I asked if there was a need for me. Get on board, Do what I tell you and enjoy the trip he said. Well, night stop Gander, 3 days in Bermuda and get back to work for the last of our four nights shift. I was amused at the reaction of my fellow tradesmen on shift, who all pointed out that, as I was a "new boy" I should have informed the shift boss of the change of route once I knew of it, so that "more deserving" shift members could go.

Many GE's spent their time doing Deci Scheds, Banners and Gander flyers. I never heard one complain. As a "linie" I would never have expected a "right" to a "swansong"! Sorry if I come across as somewhat bitter, I'm not really, I just wonder who the GE was who stole your swansong. As I recall it was the job of the GE to accompany the aircraft down route, if Group said it was a 2 GE route, then the boss put 2 GEs on it, I believe most long range routes, as was the one I and Tucker Thompson accompanied Dougie on to Australia, were designated as 2 GE routes, is that what you call Burgling ? OK, rant over, no offence meant Null and apologies in advance for biting, keep on posting guys.

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

I think I have mentioned before my last trip was on Xmas eve to Split and back. As I was the ALM Leader this was my decision as it allowed another of my 'troops' to go off for Xmas leave.

[Null Orifice]

Smudge,

I told the original story out of synch with the actual chronology, so the events below actually took place before my swansong; therefore, a reverse irony is involved.

In those days there was a manpower shortage in the GE's section, which made it all the more galling when 'my' route was pinched by one of them.
No names here but he was a known self-seeker who left the service in '79, I believe.
Included in his many talents were his innate ability to start a fight in phone box, reporting sick when a duff trip came up, and causing one captain to question both his personal qualities and his technical abilities. This captain formally requested that Lyneham Ops should send somebody else to fix the job that he couldn't do, as he (the captain) had lost all confidence in the aforesaid GE. I drew the short straw - after I arrived and was briefed by the captain on what had taken place things were a little fraught between us two lineys. He resented my being called out to his job, while I had a similar sentiment towards him! As I mentioned earlier, when I discovered he had somehow wangled me out of my prized route, I was not entirely chuffed!

Due to the shortfall in GE numbers, several of us trade managers were checked out on other trades and possessed over-signing chits for basic-level coverage away from base - I would not pretend to have the same training as a GE in other than my own trade; that is why some SVC trips had a mix of several trades. Not necessarily an economic use of manpower or the defence budget, I know, but that was the situation - we just did what we had to do.

As for the entitlement to a 'Swan song' - there was no actual right to one, although there was an unwritten protocol in existence. I might add that I bear no malice towards GEs (well, perhaps one) - some of my best friends were such, one of whom I still correspond with almost 40 years on.

[smujsmith]

Null,

I do apologise if that last post of mine was somewhat testy. I had no wish to "have a go", and yes, even in my time as a GE, there were one or two who didn't enhance our standing with the Aircrew at times. By heck, didn't you work some funny shift patterns back then. When I got back on Albert at Lyneham 87 ish as I recall, ALSS worked a simple 12 hour shift, 4 days of days, 4 days off, 4 nights and 4 days off, repeat. It seemed to suit most at the time, and I had never had a job in the service that gave me so much time off. Becoming a GE put me back to work big time. I think from my records I averaged 276 days a year, away on route, for the six or so years I did the job. Anyway, again, apologies if my post seemed a tad heavy, I'm getting on a bit you know !!

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smuj,
fear not. Anyone who has had a cursory glance at the posts on this thread can not but be impressed by the good humour and lack of aggro therein. It is one of the drawbacks of this type of conversation that irony, humour and facial expression, all things we take for granted in everyday life are virtually impossible to reproduce.
Keep posting !
I was having a much needed garage clear out when I chanced upon my Dulles Page orange screwdriver. Have you still got yours ?

[Dougie M]

Smuj
AA62 beat me to the post but I concur with all he said. A chat over a black sheep in the 5 Bells covers a lot more ground than a slow typed story in these pages.
Having a son in the R.E.M.E. and a father in law who was my Sqn Eng O it has always been a very good plan to hearken to the words of engineers, both air and ground. Large Eng Dets like the Gulf, Asi, and Rhodesia down to lone GE's have saved a lot of grief in my time.
One springs to mind of an engine snag on the way into Vegas with Tornado spares. After the engine was shut down the copious amounts of oil flowing artistically along the nacelle spelt "night stop" in my understanding. Nellis banished us to the hazardous loading area with words like "you're not dripping that stuff all over our pristine ramp".
When the replacement hose arrived the next day the GE said "This has not been pressure tested, Captain" which was relayed to Lyneham. "Proceed" we were told. After a tentative engine run we lined up, set Take Off Power and gathered speed down the runway. Next thing was the call "Abort,Abort inboards only" Lots more oil on Nellis runway. Banished once again to the hazardous loading area with dark threats and orders to proceed to Base Ops for debrief.
This was one occasion that we wouldn't say that the Loadie told us to do it.

[smujsmith]

aa62,

I still have it somewhere, but not sure of its exact location presently. I do remember that the handle extension, could be used as a "dumpy" screwdriver, mounting point exited the handle whilst I was still a GE, so, I ended up with two seperate screwdrivers. It was always a handy piece of kit though, and saved many a GE having to drag his whole tool kit outside the aircraft.

Dougie,

Had a similar experience on our way back from the Far East. We had an ignition relay failure on No 1 Engine, and no spare in the FAP. I had one in my spares bag, acquired whilst somewhere in the states, but my fellow GE on the trip suggested we check the part number was good. So, we engrepped Lyneham Ops and were informed that it was not the correct part, and we would take a 24 hour delay whilst the correct item was sent. ISTR we were in Abu Dhabi at the time so we set off to enjoy the creature comforts of the hotel and await arrival of the spare. It duly turned up on the next evenings BA flight. We waltzed it through customs and unpacked it ready to fit. On checking it was exactly the same part number as I had in my spares bag. We advised Lyneham, and were eventually told the correct item would arrive on tomorrow's flight. Enjoy the pool ! Well, any who know will know that there's a little "trick" with the ignition relay, designed for when you need to get out of dodge fast. That is to start the engine, and once self sustaining transfer the relay to replace the dodgy one. It gets a bit drafty behind the prop, but done properly perfectly safe. The option was discussed, and offered, no one was interested. The "injuns" we're not coming over the hill. All we needed was to start the engine and do one leg to Akrotiri where the correct item was awaiting us. Eventually Lyneham relented and allowed me to fit my spare relay, the wrong item remember. The engine started fine, we informed the crew and were airborne within a few hours for Akrotiri.

On arrival at Akrotiri, one poseur and former GE Mr Libby, was very welcoming and soon had stores deliver the proper relay to us on the TASF pan, the part number was identical to my spare. So, in agreement with the crew, we said nothing, cleared the one flight only on my relay and flew home the next day. On our return I was hauled over the coals as to why I was carrying an incorrect spares item with me en route. Luckily our GE boss had done some checking of his own and found the following. When we had contacted Lyneham Ops from Abu Dhabi, the Flt Sgt eng ops guy had rung the line to confirm the part number of the ignition relay. The line had sent a man out to the hangar and he confirmed the number of the relay on the nearest engine to him with open cowlings. This was passed to eng ops, who then used it as "the standard", you guessed it, the one checked in ALSS was in actual fact a spare, fitted somewhere other than Lyneham and was indeed the wrong item. My spare was the correct item, as were the six or so held in stock at AKR. Talk about embarrassing, but I never got an apology for my "stand up when I address you Chief" ! It all sounds a bit of a shambles really, and I suppose it appears that way. The problem was that at the broken end of the supply chain, as GEs often were, we had no control of anything until it pitched up at the coal face. One GE told me of recieving a replacement window somewhere in Africa. On getting hold of it, the box clearly marked "Heavy Item, 16 lbs weight" was in fact the correct, but empty, transit box for that particular window. It only weighed about 2 lbs, yet no one had queried this from Lyneham Stores, through the engineering pre issue check through transit with BA etc etc. All part of life's rich pageant in those days I think. Regards to you all, keep posting about those good old days, it do make I chuckle.

As a quick follow up. If I recall correctly a fellow contributor to this thread, R4H, was one of the two Captains who had "driven us" to Hong Kong, pretty sure the other was one S/L Chris O'B***n. Perhaps he remembers the incident.


Smudge :ok:

[wardie]

Just a quick addition to the spares/equipo's issue (proving that it was not unique to you Poms). We needed to replace the fixed waveguide for the radar on one of our birds (I think after a lightning strike) and duly order the part expecting a huge box to arrive as this item runs from the radar unit in the nose wheel well, through the forward bulkhead to the antenna in the radome and has many changes of direction. So we were totally gobsmacked when this smallish box was passed over the stores counter. Assuming we had been shipped the wrong part we opened the box to see a folded up waveguide - some enterprising equipo had obviously decided that space in his warehouse was more important than a working part so had crammed a mangled mess into the smallest box that they could find. It would have taken a fair amount of effort to bend that waveguide like they did.

[ancientaviator62]

wardie,
as an ex Air Radar Fitter your post doubled me up almost as much as your waveguide !

[smujsmith]

Nice one Wardie,

I once heard of a 16 foot long replacement hydraulic pipe arriving to recover a down route aircraft, in a 3 foot long box. Similarly mangled as your waveguide was. I wonder if both RAAF and RAF Suppliers were trained to the same syllabus ?:rolleyes:

Smudge :ok:

[dragartist]

Ordered 5 ft of rubber pitot static hose for a job on the Andover.
You guessed: It was not coiled but cut into five one foot lengths.
Perfectly true

[ExAscoteer]

Could one of the GEs enlighten me as to what SVC actually stood for?

2000+ hrs Albert and I never did find out (aside from the fact they were generally SACs, helped the GE, and were valued crew members and part of the 'Party Room').

[smujsmith]

Ex ascoteer,

I will attempt my interpretation of the term. In my "Yoof" I was allowed a couple of trips to Belfast and Malta as an SSVC, I understood it was meant to stand for Supernumery SerVicing Crew. The trips I did, as an SSVC, were always as an assistant to a qualified Ground Engineer, and usually required me to do all the bits of an A/F (After Flight) or B/F(Before Flight) servicing he didn't fancy doing. In my experience, when it was a T/R (turn round) servicing, I did the lot and the GE went with the crew to collect the duty free allowance, mine being donated to the crew total was the norm. I may well be wrong but I believe that SVC was a simplified version of SSVC which I described from earlier days. As a GE it was always a pleasure to take one of the hardworking linies down route, and it always made their day when SAC, Jnr Tech or Corporal, they were taken on as part of the team. Something that I am proud of to this day. One thing the C130 fleet should be very proud of, from top to bottom all who served were given their due respect. As a quick aside, I was once given an SVC for a trip to Belize with a small extension "in theatre". The SVC was an SAC (W) admin clerk from SHQ. From startup at Lyneham, to shutdown on return, that young lady took so much interest in what was going on, I swear, she could have gone to ALSS or BLSS on return and produced a good days work. Having spent many a year on other. Aircraft, I would suggest that Albert, the crews and the ground personnel all stood out with a common purpose in getting the job done, regardless of trade or status. Something I am proud I was part of to this day.

Hope that helps EX Ascoteer, Gopher 01 might have a better explanation of the SVC conundrum. BEing the oldest Ex GE on the thread :=

Smudge :ok:

[gopher01]

I will accept Smudges invitation to comment on the SVC question as , as he puts it the oldest G.E. on the site, ( I hope he means oldest as in seniority in the job not as in Anno Domini but he might be right there.) An SVC ( Servicing Crew ) was generally but not always another engineering tradesman allocated to assist the G.E. on route when there was either a shortage of G.E.s or the route didn't justify the use of two G.E.s but there was a need for two man working e.g. cold climes in the winter where a safety man was required would be a prime example.
It was also a very good morale booster as there was a certain amount of SVC trips spread round the station to non technical areas, to give some people who would not otherwise get to see what the aircraft they backed up in their way went out and did. I took, over my ten years as a G.E., many people from around the station on these trips and the general comment was that there was a lot more going on down route than they had imagined and that some of the things that they experienced would affect the way they did their tasking back at Lyneham, that if they were a little more careful with say spares re-supply a lot of problems down route would not occur.
In general SVC were a good idea, as always you got the odd plonker, explaining that a certain informality on the frame was accepted but that when in a normal military environment that normal military conventions applied was required at times.
Spares resupply was always a bit of a lottery, being stuck in Nassau waiting for a Turbine overheat keyer unit to come from Southern at Miami who wouldn't supply it until Command paid for the Tacho Genny they had a month before, was a bummer, more days on the beach until somebody paid up, and sitting in Oman after a valve housing leak waiting for a Techie to arrive to assist with the task and the PRC to seal the housing, Techie arrived fourteen hours later by Gulf Air, PRC turned up four days later as it was DAC and had to come out civvy freight and before you ask we weren't allowed to use sealant from the SOAF as it might not be the right stuff, echoes of Smudges part no debacle. That and sitting in St Louis waiting for a prop change kit which turned up without the prop lifting dolly securing nut, it was only about 2 foot across easy to miss! And I could go on, the list is if not endless certainly rather long.
See you on the Eighteenth Smudge, should be a good day.

[smujsmith]

Gopher 01,

As always, thanks for your more mature insight into the meaning of the various acronyms that befuddled our former lives. And no inference as to your advanced years by any means. I reckon that you have fully explained the SVC, including the occasional inclusion of non engineering personnel as such. My own "eye opener" came when a Jengo from B line jumped on the aircraft one morning and told me that he had taken the SVC slot on a Belize Schedule, and that he would also be writing a report on my performance. Was he an SVC, or a trapper ? Did it matter? When the No 3 engine blew its Labyrynth seal on shut down at Dulles, we needed to work, not posture. So, an Engine change, and having exchanged eng reps, a recovery frame was launched with replacement donk, and Engine Change Team. They will arrive in two days time I was told. So, Jengo says, "right, game on" downtown Washington for two days. Not so says I, you are filling an SVC slot, tomorrow morning at least will be spent preparing the prop and engine for dropping. All required hoists etc will be booked, and once the aircraft is as far as possible readied for the recovery team, we can get a bit of sight seeing in. I will give the young Officer his due, he rolled his sleeves up and we got stuck in the next morning. He was miffed at missing out on the sight seeing offered by the aircrew. By around 1500 local we had done the prep, our only job now was to help with the transfer of our load to the recovery frame, and continue with that aircraft to Belize. We had a very enjoyable time that evening and I was happy to take the young fellow to the Smithsonian and a Limo ride around the sights of DC. The next day, our day off, we did a White House tour and enjoyed a walk around the Lincoln and other memorials, including the Vietnam rememberence wall. He certainly said he enjoyed the time, and whatever his report on me, I retired as a Ch Tech, I must have got something right. I just say, he was the only Jengo I ever saw with the cuts you always acquire from taking locking wire off, in preparation for an engine change.

Hope you have a good day on the 18th Gopher, unfortunately I'm otherwise engaged that day. I will attempt to arm Tucker T with a beer token from me to you, in the hope I can add to your enjoyment of the evening. Regards to all who know me.

Smudge :ok:

[November4]

Going through some old CDs and came across the Royal Air Force Air Power CD from 2000 with this little video of Lyneham.

View My Video (http://tinypic.com/r/zsjxqe/9)

Apologises if it has already made an appearance on this thread.

[Jackw106]

C130 search and rescue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-g7wp_-QX0

[Rwy in Sight]

A C-130 overflew my place about 20 minutes ago on its way to what is probably a civilian MEDVAC mission.

[ancientaviator62]

Jack,
that was me with stinking cold and a sore throat croaking my way through my tale on the Cosford Hercules. The show must go on and all that !

[smujsmith]

Our local fish and chip wrapping has announced today that the Red Arrows will not be displaying at RIAT, as a result of the Shoreham accident. My son was moved to say that what a pity the RAF doesn't still have the Green Barrows, a team he was particularly fond of on the Lyneham families days during the 1980/90s. I had to agree that their displays would have been well within the current requirements, and likely thrill the attending crowds as they did back then. I did balk at his suggestion of 9, red painted, J's though. Happy Father's Day to all who are🍻

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

The "Families Day Break" certainly used as much airspace as a diamond nine flypast but how the risk assessors can equate Shoreham with Fairford defeats me. I know it's under review but highly professional, serving pilots in highly maintained service aircraft at a huge airfield in the middle of nowhere are fundamentally a different proposition to a civvy pilot in a vintage jet of questionable serviceability at a tiny airfield in the middle of the south coast conurbation. What a shame for the RIAT.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/03c9df89-c6f6-42e8-a580-4fcea1c4804e_zpsgjjovcvc.jpg

[Wander00]

Nothing out "no Reds" on the RIAT site as at last night

[ICM]

I suspect that the local newspaper has extrapolated from the recent Farnborough announcement about the Reds to an assumption that they will not appear at RIAT. As Wander00 says, they are still shown this morning on the RIAT site amongst the Confirmed Aircraft for the show on all 3 days. I'd like to think that the assessment carried out that led to the Farnborough decision has already been applied to all locations for this season and that we will not be treated to a dripfeed of later announcements.

Now, back to C-130 material .....

[Jackw106]

ancientaviator62 (http://www.pprune.org/members/136256-ancientaviator62) we need more stories thanks for your last

[ancientaviator62]

Jackw106,
I have told all the tales that are fit for a public forum such as this. Have you read this thread from the beginning ?

[Jackw106]

Yes....... I spent some time in the back of a C130 on para jumps South Cerney & Hendon I did my last descents.
Found my old log book. I was attached so the Para Regiment guys did lots more than us
Balloon x20
Argosy x 1
Andover x 2
C130 x18
Nigh decents x16
Aborts x20

[smujsmith]

I have a few ex para's who live near me. We often meet during the morning bimble and exchange pleasantries. What a fine bunch they all are, I often admired their grit getting on and departing a perfectly serviceable aircraft. Seriously, I've heard a lot of stories around the lads in purple, and I'm sure Alberts loadmaster fraternity at least must have a few they could share with us. I can only offer a tale of a trip to Deelen for a drop to commemorate Arnhem, with a night stop. As we approached the DZ the troops were still seated and a para at the front end in the LH centre seats did not have his skid lid on. The stanchion that supports the seats was not fitted correctly and collapsed, hitting the unfortunate para on the head. There was a lot of blood, and we removed him to the lower bunk, where he insisted he was fit to go with the rest. Thankfully the drop was aborted due to high winds. Thankfully, the seating was fitted by the roly squippers back at Lyneham, I would have hated to have caused that.

Smudge

[Dougie M]

I found myself on the flying programme to go to PTS training the following morning. I wasn't expecting such a delight but at Oh Christ hundred hours there we were at Braize in the chilly dawn. A steady 20kt wind was blowing from the west at 1000ft but as usual the surface wind was 13kts (within limits). The course had assembled and were casting fearful looks in our direction. "Woss going on?" we asked. "Well the crew yesterday got the CARP wrong" they said. "Didn't they put out a drifter on the first pass?" I asked. There was a shaking of heads. "We had troops off the DZ" they said. "Well there's nothing too close to worry about" "The M40 is serious" they said.
It appeared that the Nav had applied the wind vector (which was prodigious) the wrong way, so the troops were released 650 yards early and still had 450 yards of canopy drift downwind. The first guy landed over 1000yards early adjacent to the morning rush hour traffic on the M40. Oops.
The PTS Sgt said "We were thinking of giving all the troops 20p each to phone for a taxi."
So that's why we were getting those strange looks.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/4aba214f-a57d-4620-a89d-aad6fd78a9a1_zps3ulzwve6.jpg

[smujsmith]

Nice Doug,

I always understood the para's on the motorway was down to a certain Flight Engineer, one L*s E**ns. Perhaps those who related the story to me may have embellished it. Or, is there another event of delivering the purple hued warriors to the morning rush hour ?

Smudge :ok:

[Brian 48nav]

Reminds me of one day at Boscombe; I was doing Aerodrome Radar and a Herc' came to drop para' at Fox covert from 12,000'. I can't remember whether he had taken off from DM or come in from Brize/Abingdon.

There was a fair old Nor Westerlie blowing and after the paras left the aircraft I thought this doesn't look right. Had it been a Free-Fall drop I shouldn't have seen the paras as they would have been descending too fast - 5 seconds/1000' IIRC. As I could see the paras on radar after they had left the aircraft I guessed they were doing 'stand-off' ( descent rate 60 seconds/1000' ) and warned the other guys around me that they were liable to drift across our climb out lane. They certainly did and the furthest point of impact from Fox Covert was Downton some 5 miles south of Salisbury!

You may ask, didn't I say something, but it was 12 years since I'd been a Herc' nav and there was no direct safety issue for the aircraft i.e. high ground, active danger areas etc so we just tracked the paras and made sure none of our traffic went near them.

[ancientaviator62]

Been on several drops where ,for a variety of reasons, the paras 'avoided' the DZ.
On one of the Arnhem drops a good percentage landed in the car park and elsewhere other than the DZ. We had pointed out that the wind was marginal at best but the Army insisted that the 'show' went on. No serious injury amongst the paras as I recall.

[Top Bunk Tester]

That's very close to a slab Smuj ;)

[Brian W May]

God made him the ugliest man in the world then hit him in the face with a shovel?

No idea who you're talking about Smuj :p

[ancientaviator62]

Brian48Nav,
when we did FF para from 35000 ft Boscombe could count the troops as they exited. This was especially so on HAHO drops where they were attempting to 'drive' as far as they could. I have already told the tale of the blind drop using Decca that missed the DZ by miles.

[Clunk60]

Let's be careful what we say please. This is a very good thread with great stories. We don't know if said individual or members of their family frequent it. The K fleet was full of characters of whatever ilk, that's what made it so great!

[Dougie M]

The aforementioned car park was the best acquisition aid for the drop zone. En route from the south for a noon drop the sun's reflection in 2000 car windscreens was blinding. We had spent a quiet evening the night before like England footy supporters in Brussels being royally entertained by M***y B****s the exchange officer, and had sampled most of the trappist beers. The last one I recall was drunk from a china skull in a subterranean bar with coffin lids as tables. We didn't need a complicated plot for the lowlevel across Belgium the following morning so the brief was simple "Keep up and cope". After getting a priority departure demanded by the Belgique crew in Flemish as a War Memorial flight the gaggle of 5 Brits and 2 Belgian a/c launched out to the north east. As luck had it we picked up the car park at 10 miles to go but we were running 20 seconds early. The Brigadier in charge was not jumping and on the flight deck. "Would you like to fly over the Jack Frost bridge, Sir? " I solicitously enquired. "Oh, very much so" he replied. So the whole formation turned 30 deg right for 1 minute over to the "bridge too far" then came back onto the run in at 2 minutes "Action Stations" bang on time. It's WHO you know.




http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/b27db835-0035-4ded-8d9f-8d6549a52562_zpsfjqbpf7g.jpg

[ancientaviator62]

Doug,
that picture really triggered my memory of all the roads choked with cars as far as I, in the open para door could see. You would have needed to be up early to get a spot in the car park proper. And yes I do recall the endless hospitality !

[CoffmanStarter]

Good afternoon Alberteers ...

I've just been watching this video of the 'Red Arrows' during Operation Longbow back in 1972.

Just wondered if we had any members who 'crewed' the two support Hercules ? Must be a few interesting stories to tell from that trip :ok:

I'm afraid the video is not of good quality as I tried to make out the airframe numbers with no luck. However at the beginning and end of the film there are quite good profile shots of the LH and RH occupants ;)

Operation Longbow 1972 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B6xCbeY6HjE)

[Brian 48nav]

I guess the idea of them visiting Canada and the USA may have been on the agenda for some time and finally in October '71 an exploratory visit was made. A team of some half dozen guys were carried by a Herc' with a crew from 30 Sqn. The half-dozen included the team's engineering officer and one of their more experienced pilots, Al East.

The trip was given to 30 because the Reds' favourite Herc' skipper, John 'sexy' Hext was on the squadron. I believe one of the gripes the team had about the transporters was that successive Herc' captains had treated each support trip as an Air Support Command task and felt it was their duty to stick rigidly to the published itinerary, ignoring that the raison d'être of the task was to provide back-up to the team and carry their ground crew and equipment, and if that meant waiting for them and 'missing' their chock times, so be it.

John, an ex-fighter pilot in his youth, understood instinctively their needs. He had also spent a tour as an Ops Controller at Upavon and knew how that set-up worked, particularly that the AOC did not look at every aircraft 'down the route' and note which skippers missed chock times. Obviously he couldn't do every trip as they were tasked between all the Lyneham squadrons.

In October 71 we flew from Lyneham to Sondestrom, night stop, then to Narssarssuaq the old WW2 Bluey West One, night stop, Frobisher Labrador ( where we the Herc' crew won the bingo prize in the local dive ) and finally home via Goose Bay. The co-pilot was Ed Talbot who had to fight off a would-be amorous eskimo lady one night. The crew joke was that such ladies either had TB or VD, so if in search of love one sought a lady with a cough! The other nav' was Jeff Berryman ( RIP ), there was 2 of us so we could practise Gyro grid.

The trip supporting the Red Arrows was allocated to 30 ( I didn't realise 2 aircraft had gone until now ) with John of course as captain. He asked me to be his nav', sadly I declined because I wasn't mad keen on the USA and I didn't want to be away from my young family for nearly 6 weeks - that would seem as quite a joke to later generations of Herc' crews who will have spent months and months away from their families. But back in the early 70s, Northern Ireland and to a lesser extent Oman, were the only trouble spots that we went to - no-one could have foreseen Zimbabwe, Falklands,Iraq etc etc. The 30 nav' that went with John was Alex Nash, who later found fame by becoming an RAF pilot without doing a course!

As an aside, the Reds leader Ian Dick was OC Valley just before my lad went there in '89 and years later while perusing a tourist leaflet in Midi-Pyrenees I noticed an article about him and IIRC a lavender farm he owned there.

[ancientaviator62]

I have already mentioned in an earlier thread that 30 had a Reds trip to the USA in the 90s. I sent Bert D. on that one as his retirement 'lollipop'. Whilst the loadmaster leader on 30 I did a Reds trip to the Far East in the late 90s. When the trip came in I gave it to a lady loadmaster as her retirement 'lollipop'. The boss told me I was to go and when I explained the situation he arranged for us both to go.

[smujsmith]

OK Gentlemen,

I have no wish to breach any rules on the thread and apologise if recent posts had raised any hackles. I relate a story from 14 September 1989. The Jersey air show and I was assigned as GE to a 70 Squadron crew flying the Reds support in to the Airport. The aircraft used was XV200 (ASCOT4966) curiously the aircraft that saw my career ended with a broken back. Anyway, we collected the Reds Groundcrew from Scampton (ISTR) then headed for Jersey. Most of the display aircraft, including the Reds had deployed a day earlier, so when the weather forecast for our arrival was "marginal" (wind wise) it was no surprise that the approach and landing was handled brilliantly by the superb capability of an experienced crew (apart from myself, GEs do nothing to assist that phase of the trip). Having landed and disgorged the load, we were informed that the winds were contrary for at least 3 hours, our departure would be delayed. We were invited, as a crew, to a reception in a hangar, and with orders from our Captain that soft drinks only were the order of the day, all trotted off to what we thought would be a pleasant experience. With Cokes in hand, we were approached by a chap in a red "grow bag" and leather jacket who looked down his nose at me (resplendent in green "grow bag", Ch Tech rank badges, and GE nameplate on left breast). He advised our Captain that the party was for people "actually contributing" to the Jersey air display, and I was obviously not one of those. My Captain said that we had brought in his ground support today, in weather we would have been entitled to abort in, I was part of his crew and that it was a shame that that was his attitude, he was the leader of the Reds at the time. We left, as a crew, and I always remember the attitude of that man on that day. We all enjoyed a few beers at the bowl on return, I'm sure anyone on that trip would remember that attitude. The Reds are a great display team, I do hope they treat their own Groundcrew better than those who fly in support of them. Am I a bitter old bugger ? I don't think so, I just think I was never derided by a C130 crew as that man did that day. Perhaps I am.

Smudge :ok:

[OmegaV6]

Smudge .. there are always idiots somewhere looking for the chance to demonstrate their stupidity, sometimes the Reds had more than their fair share... I was lucky enough to do several Reds support trips, both abroad and UK ..but a UK one was the best example of some "lack of thought" ....

in a nutshell, part of the task was two shows at Mildenhall, early afternoon then evening, after which a transit to Aberdeen, Dyce where the Reds would be doing a show at around 10 the following morning, following a "Civic Reception" on the evening of our arrival..

so they do the second show at Mildenhall, land, get serviced, refuel and depart ... we rapidly finish loading the kit they've just used and their servicing crew, start up (with two known problems that we have running "fixes" for) and depart for Aberdeen....

On arrival at Aberdeen the GE is down the back helping the Loadie with one of the problems, we shut down 3 engines (leaving #3 running at low speed) while I nip out with screwdriver and broom to sort the other "fix" on the GTC door :) .....

I'm just about to signal the skipper to start the GTC when my headset is almost ripped off by an idiot Flt Lt who is shouting "where the **** have you lot been, you are supposed to be here when we land ....." yup .. the Engineering Officer who had cadged a lift in the back of one of the Reds ...

Once we were sorted he had an extremely one sided conversation with my skipper, part of which involved the explanation of the laws of physics and the relative speeds of a Hawk and a Hercules and the effect of that over a few hundred miles ..... He was VERY quiet over the rest of the trip .....

[bingofuel]

Many years ago when VC10 Captains required a ring of confidence and were acting Sqn Ldrs a Britannia crew were in transit to Changi and enjoying a cool beer in a certain Indian Ocean transit point. With the crew was their Squadron Wing Commander who on arriving had been informed he had been promoted to Group Captain with immediate effect. His crew mates decided he should wear the appropriate rank insignia and furnished him with a compilation of Flt Lt stripes to total the required 4 rings. On entering the refreshment area the VC10 Captain on seeing this rabble assumed they were all junior officers taking the michael over his half stripe, and made his views known quite clearly and loudly!

The following day a newly promoted Group Captain boarded a certain VC10 returning to the UK captained by one very sheepish acting Sqn Ldr flying the new boss of Transport Command home!!

Some people just have to open mouth before engaging brain.......

[smujsmith]

Gentlemen,

You both show examples of what I was attempting to highlight. It was by no means limited to aircrew, or senior officers. As a GE, I had become a member of a bit of a rogue group, if you will pardon the terminology. As a single trade liney, I would always have the support of a base, or deployment base, with support. And therefore no need to think beyond doing it by the book. As a GE I needed to think how I could keep Albert going, with the agreement of the crew who were operating, in a safe and acceptable fashion. I remember one trip which ended with a direct Bermuda - Lyneham home leg. Weather favourable, an empty aircraft, and about 12 hours flying. Our only problem was part of one of the engines was not cooperating so I dug in to my "spares bag". Lo and behold I found a spare part, but it was one mod state short of the latest item. Picture the scene, the potential for a couple of days off in Bermuda and we had the discussion, no one was in any doubt, the part was only required to start the engine on the ground, if it failed at that point, we could always go tits, at least we had made the attempt. The Nav, top bloke, reckoned with a little extra fuel, if we got 2 hours out of Bermuda, and an air start using the airflow wasn't forthcoming, a 3 engined transit home was well within our capabilities. We started up and went home. On arrival back at Lyneham, I was shattered, having done a deal with the loady to do six hours on the galley, as he abused my hammock. The line debrief with the Captain and Eng was concluded when I had a quiet word with the Propulsion trade manager on shift. "Can you pull that relay on No3" says I, with a wink, and put the proper job in. He smiled, nodded and I left. Two days later I was invited for a chat with OC Eng Wing, the line Chief had reported my most unprofessional attitude to aircraft engineering and it had gone up the chain. All I could do was take the hit, and learn my lesson. I should have replaced the item myself as soon as we got back, not involving those who I though appreciated that my job was to get the aircraft home, safely, in consultation with the operating crew. I had a chat with the Propulsion TM in the Sgts mess at a dining out night a few months later, and asked why he involved the extended reporting chain, when he could have made his point directly to me. His reply was that, he was peeved that I might have denied him and one of his lads a recovery in Bermuda. I rest my case M'lauds.

Smudge :ok:

[bingofuel]

Smudge, I would like to think the aircraft Commander involved stood up for you and pointed out he had accepted your solution and accepted the aircraft.
If not he was not being an Officer and looking after his crew !!

[ExAscoteer]

^^^^ This!

[smujsmith]

Bingofuel,

Never took it up with the skipper. I know he would have backed me up had I asked. Some things were best just let rest (as they say "up north"). Myself and the Flt Eng involved did have a laugh about it on a later trip. Such is life.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
I may be unique here in being the only one to have been groundcrew on an aerobatic sqn (92 The Blue Diamonds) and supported the Red Arrows with the Gnat and the Hawk. We did lots of UK internals with the Herc during the Gnat era due to its short 'legs'. I have no recollection of ever being invited to a post show party, and as groundcrew on 92 we would definitely not be seen never mind heard !
One of the Reds once asked me what a loadmaster was doing as a Squadron Leader.
I reminded him that we had passed exactly the same OCTU course and that shut him up.

[Dougie M]

Some years ago I was on an Arrows support flight giving displays in France and Italy before arriving for the big one in Valletta harbour in Malta. En route there was a display at Roanne in the Loire. It was a small hilltop airfield which we could "get in" to but the Reds couldn't so we were based in St. Yan down the road. The open boot of Albert was left to the GE to supervise because he had some "things to see to" as the Reds groundcrew topped up the jets with coloured kerosene so the crew went by bus to the show. Sitting under the wing of a spitfire with a bottle of rouge I said how much it reminded me of the summer of 1940 when the Reds arrived from all points below the horizon for a vertical join up over the field. It was pandemonium. The frogs had never seen the like. One woman approached our skipper and spoke to him in French. "Here Doug," he said. What have you done to her. She says she's been ravished and does look as if it's true". I translated and said "Ravi" in French means delighted and she wet herself when the Reds arrived.
Our man in Paris, F****y Y****n arrived and said "You should put on the Herc Tac Demo" We kicked the wine bottles under the spit and said that the frame was a workshop full of spares and cans of fuel and not good for lots of G and unusual positions and we were half an hour away by bus. He reluctantly relented but we got a call from Group saying that we could perform if required. When we got back to Albert the GE told us that the Red groundies were grumbling about missing the show so we got him to ask them what they thought of the idea of having to get all their kit off the aircraft so that we could do a Tac Demo as Group authorised. He said that they were grateful we had refused the instruction. We had an accord.

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
ref your engineering 'solution' and the sensible way to deal with it have I told the tale of the IRCM box before ?

[Dougie M]

Bingo
A similar situation for very different motives occurred on a nightstop at NAS Miramar. It was Ladies' Night in the O Club and we decided to check it out. We had with us an SVC who already had been granted a "field promotion" to sergeant to keep him out of the execrable junior ranks quarters for the night. The crew decide to go mob handed in flying suits to the O Club so rank braids were dissected to give everybody a Fg Off bar. well there was one half ring left so the SVC was further promoted in the field to Plt Off and told a. Tell the barman you are 21 and b. Don't get carried away by the elevated station when you're pi$$ed! The place was mostly full of other guests, the Navy flyers having found something better to do and the only query we received was to the slow rate of promotion in the RAF which allowed 50 year olds to still be Fg Offs. Honour was satisfied as the Brits were just about the last ones standing along with a couple of Aussie heli blokes, so we dragged our SVC out from under a Vietnamese girl who wanted to love him longtime and called it a day.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/979f3c92-3407-4456-9ace-c7622fcfde52_zpsv0bhygop.jpg

[Wander00]

I am intrigued by mention above of a guy who went from nav to pilot without a course in between - can anyone tell us more

[gopher01]

Mentions of " You were supposed to be here before us " revive the memories of a Red Arrows trip back when the Gnat was the frame of choice for the Arrows. The trip involved a Night stop at Blackpool staying in the Norland Hotel on the prom followed by a flight to the East of England the following day. It appeared the Captain had been getting some stick on how long Albert took to get anywhere and had vowed that we were going to do our best to prove otherwise.
The following morning the info came round that the Arrows were going to do a little sightseeing in the Lake District on their way from Blackpool to I think it was Waddo and this played into the captain's hands. After the Gnats had fired up and were taxying, the Palouste starters were very rapidly rolled onto the ramp and were tied down as the ramp was coming up and Albert was taxying for the runway. The brief was flaps up, gear up direct heading to Waddo and don't bother with this climb to altitude bit, it only wasted time! So, after what was possibly the lowest level transit the Arrow's ground crew had ever experienced a straight in approach was requested, granted and taken with some heavy braking and reverse pitch on landing followed by the shortest taxi routing ever to end with the Captain vacating the aircraft with the props winding down to recline on the grass as the Gnats landed and taxied by enabling the Captain to ask the Arrows " What took you so long".
Albert 1 Arrows 0.

[Wander00]

Gopher - love it

[Brian 48nav]

Just back from holiday in France ( nuff' said! - crappy gite! ) - I'll need to search my emails from 4 or 5 years ago to recall exactly how Nasher went from nav' to pilot.

[Wander00]

You should have come to our gites then! No worries, it just seemed a bit of something interesting. I have an Admin mate who as a gp capt was OC all the little units in Germany a few years back - he all but qualified on helicopters. Lots of stick and cyclic time though.

[lynas]

Alex N went from Herc nav to 32 Sqn Gazelle nav. At Northolt he flew frequently with Danny Danton a very professional heli pilot and QHI. With no pax on board Alex flew the aircraft and displayed a lot of natural ability. With the backing of OC 32 Danny represented Alex's case to become a heli pilot with the powers at Shawbury. He was tested at Shawbury and found to be very good and so was posted on to a heli course and pilots wings. I think the point was at that time he was the only/first RAF professional to gain pilot wings without undertaking a fixed wing course.

[Dan Gerous]

Couple of Herc anniversaries being commemorated. I know they're "J" models, but looking good all the same.


http://i63.tinypic.com/2m30o6g.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/kd6dn7.jpg

[Wander00]

Lynas - thanks - W

[Brian 48nav]

Lynas beat me to it! I was intending to get SWMBO to cut and paste,( or whatever it's called - me being a technophobe ) , Nasher's email with all the details.

Mike, we must get together one day before we fall off the perch!

[R4H]

Heli flying! Did a ground tour with the Army in Germany. There was a helicopter unit with Gazelles and Lynx. At the time the gazelle was always manned by a pilot and a crewman but I was able to get stick time with the Regimental QHI. Also managed to fly the GAF Bo105 and Belgian Allouette 3. Absolutely rubbish as a heli pilot (some might say the same of my Herc skills) but the Army thought it might be a good idea to get me to solo on Gazelle and have a Soldier Magazine article about RAF Brigade Staff Officer soloing on it. RAF put the kibosh on it as I was on a ground tour, probably saving QHI lots of grey hair.

[ancientaviator62]

Just been up to town and perusing the 'collectables' in a local shop. One item caught my eye and triggered a memory, a 'Joe 90' book. Our USAF exchange officer on 47 at Fairford looked very like 'Joe 90' and was thus christened. Anyone else remember him ?

[Brian 48nav]

Could it have been Major J J Smith?

I believe he passed away 2 or 3 years ago, according to C**** K**** - he and a few other ex 47ers met up at the RAF Club to 'mourn' his passing.

[gopher01]

Smudge,you owe Tucker for a brandy sour, not quite the same taste as Akro but a valiant effort.
One bit of news from the re-union was given to me, a G.E. who I used to bump into around Swindon passed away a week before the do, a bit of a shock as I had met him a week before that and he had seemed fine. His name was Harry Davis which might not ring any bells but he achieved fame or notoriety depending on your viewpoint as being able to do a B.F. in Gander in the winter without leaving any footprints in the snow apart from those leading from the Det office to the Aircraft! If you didn't know Harry Davis you might well know or have heard of "Black Harry ", one and the same!
Another link with the early days of Albert gone.
The do was good, lots of tales told, possibly some of them true, lots of sandbags pulled up and lanterns swung, so much "do you remember" going on and this after a good look round a " J ", an A400 and a C17, a good day was had by all.

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
it was 'JJ' a great chap and I am sorry to hear of his passing.
On a trip to Lajes the crew were surprised to see a high powered reception committee when they landed. It transpired that a signal had been corrupted and the Captain appeared to be one MJ (Major General) Smith !

[ancientaviator62]

gopher,
Harry was well known for his ability to do the AF before the a/c landed.

[Null Orifice]

Regarding the late Harry Davis (AKA B**** Harry).

At one time during the early 70s on A-line, GEs were employed in their main trade on a particular shift when not on route, leave, stand-down after a trip, etc. One Saturday morning, HD should have reported on shift for weekend working. However, by around 0900, no sign of HD - and we were short of engine tradesmen. The shift controller, a Flt Sgt renowned for his colourful (and sometime disrespectful) language, tossed the keys of the Land Rover to one of the lads and told him to nip across to AMQ at Number XX, Melsome Road, give HD the Flt Sgt's compliments and invite him to get his b**** a$$ into work ASAP!

On another occasion, one of lads excitedly pointed out of the office window shouting, "Look! B**** H**** has been run over!". Lying flat on the taxyway outside J3 Hangar was a black anti-kerosene suit.

A colourful character (in more than one way).

R.I.P. Harry.

[Brian W May]

Remember Black Harry's wife stabbing him in the leg with the metal tail of a hairdresser's comb at a party in Hilmarton once.

He also tried to convince me the Before Flight was done in the snow at Coltishall . . . one set of footprints to the intake blanks on each engine and there he was huddled up on the Nav's seat with the GTC running.

Colourful character . . . hmm, you could say that.

However, he came into his own when carrying out rects, in my experience he excelled at that.

[fergineer]

Sad to here of Harrys paasing

[Harry Lime]

'Paddy Mac and Ernie' was another G/E who could do an Aff Baff from inside the aeroplane as you taxied in at Gander. Happy days!

[cheesedoff]

I've just purchased 'Exocet - Falklands: The untold story. What a good, very well researched and unbiased read. Although I heard plenty of rumours regarding Harry Burgoyne's C-130 experiences when I was on LXX; it's nice to read about them.

[dragartist]

Is Harry B still around. I last knew he was on the RIAT organising Ctee.
I have not forgiven him for spoiling my dreams over Val Singleton when we were transiting between CL and Laguna.
Cheese- There are a few other books you may like to read. or look up Marcantilans posts on the Falklands thread.
Drag

[Dougie M]

Drag.
HB is still very active. He was at a recent F Troop get together and in fine form. Val Singleton? You'll have to return your Blue Peter badge!

[smujsmith]

Cheesedoff,

Got and read the book, an eye opener indeed. I was fortunate to support Captain Burgoyne on a route or two, a proper gentleman, as they say.

Gopher01,

I of course know of black Harry from reputation, but never had the pleasure of learning his " operandus modi", thankfully. I mourn his passing as I do all who have passed the course. I would suggest though that long after he ended his days as a GE, I witnessed some who struggled to do the job, with respect to flight servicing down route. I once did a route with a fellow GE and we worked the inside/outside routine so, I did outside on landing the night before. The next morning he did outside. Whilst straightening the passenger straps (which he should have done on the A/F) and noting that the fatigue meter readings had not been recorded in the 700, I was not surprised when he declared he had finished outside, without getting the ladder out. Well, the pogo stick wasn't used for prodding the tanks, just to dislodge the intake blanks. So much for checking the front end of the engine. If any member of the operating crew were so slack in their duty, I for one would have felt entitled to have a say. This bloke was an insult to everything RAF Groundcrew stood for, a complete shirker. He was still a GE when I left the service. If you read this thread mate, you know who you are, I made it clear at the time. Sorry chaps, chest clear, glad to hear Captain Burgoyne is still good.

Smudge :ok:

PS Tucker imbibed appropriately. I call him the Sherrif of Nottingham these days, you'll know why !!

[smujsmith]

'Paddy Mac and Ernie' was another G/E who could do an Aff Baff from inside the aeroplane as you taxied in at Gander. Happy days!

I always felt guilty taking the fatigue meter readings as we taxied in. Looks like the old blokes had one over on us new boys.

[Via Entry Three]

Well, I'm not much of an internet trawler so have missed this thread until a couple of days ago. I've now finished reading up to date and it is nice to hear a few names I recognise as well as some of the faces on the pictures. As someone else has said, I wish I had taken more photographs during my time but this thread has made me find my old negatives and start warning up the scanner.

If CoffmanStarter could kindly send the requisite upload instructions my way (I'm not allowed to PM at the moment as I have only just registered) I will make a start on what photos I have at the moment.

[ancientaviator62]

VET,
our good friend and mentor in these things, Coffman, is away for a while. Perhaps one of our other contributors could assist. Welcome and we look forward to your pics and stories.

[Via Entry Three]

AA62,
Thanks for the words of welcome, I believe we crossed paths on occasion, especially on Op Vigour as I was on Crew 1. A quick potted history: 47 Sqn 1990-94; 24 Sqn 1994-97; a "temporary" posting of two and half years at 38 Gp; 47 Sqn 2000-04 then out into the big bad world. Once I've worked out how, I'll get posting some photos.

[Dougie M]

Very sorry to hear of the passing of the DoW at the age of 64. He came to visit Lyneham in his capacity as head of Auxiliary forces and watched a sortie in the K Sim.
Afterwards we were presented to him as members of 1359 Flt RauxAF and he asked us "In layman's terms, what is the difference between the K and the J model Hercules simulator?" I said "Well sir there are four crew members on the K flight deck all teasing out information from our various pieces of kit but on a J there are just two pilots and a computer"
"Who tell them how to get to where they are going?" he asked
"The pilots just plumb it into the computer like you would on the GPS in your car" I ventured.
"'Strordinary" he said, "And what happens if the computer gets shot up?"
"Then they're bu$$ered " said the Flight Eng.
"I see" he said
A very nice chap and very on side with the forces. Sadly missed.

[Brian 48nav]

Been a bit quiet here for the last 2 weeks - so bump!

[Ken Scott]

Afterwards we were presented to him as members of 1359 Flt RauxAF and he asked us "In layman's terms, what is the difference between the K and the J model Hercules simulator?" I said "Well sir there are four crew members on the K flight deck all teasing out information from our various pieces of kit but on a J there are just two pilots and a computer"
"Who tell them how to get to where they are going?" he asked
"The pilots just plumb it into the computer like you would on the GPS in your car" I ventured.
"'Strordinary" he said, "And what happens if the computer gets shot up?"
"Then they're bu$$ered " said the Flight Eng.
"I see" he said


With absolutely no intent to reserect the 'K v J' thread of long ago there is more than one computer onboard the J but only one Nav (to get shot) on the K so I humbly suggest that the former had greater redundancy rather than less!

[Dougie M]

The occasion when the noble Duke visited Lyneham was some time ago when the J was relatively new and his request was to be enlightened "in layman's terms" which we kept as simple as possible. I am sure that all Navs and Engs wish the best of luck to those soldiering on with the last Herc type in the R.A.F.




http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/bed96378-aff6-41be-a750-837f1849a341_zpsf8dbxaue.jpg

[dragartist]

Here's to Mike

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist, seconded. Without him this thread would not have existed.

[Dougie M]

Very sorry to learn of Coff's passing. A great shame and it's a pity he never saw the millionth posting on this thread.

[Dougie M]

As a tribute to past times, the Westbury Cement Works chimney known to all tactical Herc operators as "Smoky Joe", the instantly recognisable clue to the run in at Keevil DZ was demolished yesterday. Another icon gone,


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/cca717d8-fd86-442d-8730-cb62501b931d_zpsmvyatfvr.jpg

[ICM]

.... and Doug, I'll add a farewell to the chimney on behalf of Argosy crews. Another bit of our youth fallen to dust.

[dragartist]

Someone asked on the other thread if Mike (Coff) had served at Lyneham. He had not worked on the Herc or at Lyneham so far as I know but had a real genuine interest. As AA62 says, without his encouragement many of the stories unfolding on here would remain untold. Lets hope we get to the million as a tribute Doug.
Who is going to share the SOP for uploading pictures now?
Drag.

[ancientaviator62]

I had the good fortune to meet Mike (Coffman Starter) at the Tangmere Aviation Museum. He had not served in the RAF but if I recall correctly he had served with the RAFVR(T). He had a deep interest in all things aviation which is why he flagged up the 'Global Aviation' article which resulted in this thread becoming what it is. His best loved a/c was the Chipmunk. We will miss his gentle humour, his patience and his expertise.

[Brian 48nav]

The story in some of today's papers re young EasyJet captain and first officer got me to thinking about the youngest pair of pilots I flew with in my short career.

As captain, John Lambert ( RIP ) in 1971 when he was 24 years old, though the co-pilots listed in my logbook were possibly older than him except for a Fg Off Thomas, who I sadly cannot recall.

Then I remembered that when I did the OCU in '67 co-pilots used to do one solo from the left hand seat with another co in the right hand seat. I was just 21, Bob Willson as the co was also 21, and Malcolm Hunt in the left hand seat was probably the same age though he could have been younger.

Which begs a question - did co-pilots do a solo on the OCU throughout the life of the K? If not when did it cease?

[Ken Scott]

There wasn't a co-pilots' solo when I went through the OCU in the early 90s, I'm surprised that it ever happened as the co was only trained to sit in the RHS. There was a crew solo where we went off without any of the instructors but it was made absolutely clear that the student captain was to be the handling pilot, I was not to touch the controls. By the time I did my captain's course that sortie had been taken out of the syllabus.

[Brian 48nav]

Thanks Ken - I've just exchanged emails ( celebrating the two of us reaching 70 yrs old ) with my mate A****, who was boss of the OCU c1992, and he confirms it was no longer done. He thinks it was a throwback to the Hastings/Beverley days when co-pilots could not log 1st pilot time unless they had been LH seat checked.

[Ken Scott]

There's quite a difference between checking someone in the LHS & letting them off solo there! Co pilots in the C17 & A400M today qualify in both seats as handling & non-handling pilot (not in the C130J or Voyager though) but I don't think you'd find an authoriser prepared to send them off on their own with another co! They were clearly much less restrictive days.

Incidentally, how did you feel about going off with 2 co-pilots in the driving seats? I'm guessing that at your age then you saw no problem with it?

Congratulations on achieving your 7 decades milestone.

[1066]

So sorry to hear about Coffman. AA62 is quite right, without him this thread would not have happened. Legacy!
On the subject of mutual co-pilot training I remember when I started flying Hastings at Lindholme in 69 the tales, especially from the flight engineers, about co-pilots together on the north south runway at Colerne. It was only much later in the early 90s when 3AEF moved from Hullavington to Colerne that I saw for myself the very marked hump about 1000 feet into the 4000 ish southerly runway. Very interesting in a Chipmunk, there's the link with Coff, but in a Hastings the potential for getting it wrong must have been endless.

On a v different tack does anyone remember the flat nylon lashing tape that was in vogue for short time in the 80s?
AA62 what was the story behind its introduction and rapid demise? I've found it useful in the garden but raise the subject because I'm close to running out. Not a problem as I've found plenty of unused garden twine in my late father's house.
1066

[ancientaviator62]

Ref the flat 'nylon' lashing tape, the introduction of which was solely to save money. It suffered the usual 'nylon' problems of stretch and actinic degradation.
It also had a lower rating than normal lashing tape so of course more was used to do the same job. Eventually the penny dropped even with the bean counters and normal service was resumed.

[Brian 48nav]

Thank you very much for your congrats' - mind you, yesterday when I was riding my bike and racing myself on the Garmin thingie that my son bought me for my 70th, I felt every day of my age!

Back in '67, knowing b*gger all about what pilots could or could not do, I didn't give any thought to the 'danger' I may have been in. At Nav' School some advice was given re pilots i.e. avoid anyone wearing a coloured scarf with his flying suit, and on your first squadron look for an old Master Pilot with a large family to support.

As the end of my second tour approached and now the father of 3 children, my concern for my own well-being was much greater! The eldest of those 3 was warned emphatically not to frighten me f**tless when he gave me a ride in a Jaguar some 20 years later in 1993!

[Dougie M]

This versatile material had many uses including deterring passenger "air rage".




http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/505f0bea-ab58-4138-8d9f-f798198d6106_zpsbkn2xu0f.jpg

[Xercules]

Thanks Ken - I've just exchanged emails ( celebrating the two of us reaching 70 yrs old ) with my mate A****, who was boss of the OCU c1992, and he confirms it was no longer done. He thinks it was a throwback to the Hastings/Beverley days when co-pilots could not log 1st pilot time unless they had been LH seat checked.
I wax on 24 Course at Thorney Island in 1971 and there was no copilot solo even by then. It was not even talked about by either staff or students so my guess is that it stopped a very short time after we got the aircraft.

[ancientaviator62]

Doug,
that excellent bit of crochet looks to be made from the original type of lashing tape. As you say it had many uses one of which was discussed in an earlier post, as 'currency' in Gambia.

[Brian 48nav]

Just been speaking to C**** K**** who was on 8 Course and they didn't do a solo, so it obviously stopped after my course, 4, and before 8.

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
I was on 8 course as well and I do not recollect co pilot solos. However they were done on the Hastings, a rather more challenging a/c !

[1066]

AA62
Thanks for the flat nylon tape info. I do remember none of the ALMs being impressed with it!
1066

[aeroid]

Ref 4472, Brian was that a Viv Thomas of the Welsh variety. He owes me a few from FTS and Squadron days

[Brian 48nav]

That first name hasn't rung any bells, but I can form a picture of a tall, slim ( weren't we all! ), dark-haired guy with maybe a pinkish complexion - nice guy IIRC.

[friendlypelican 2]

Dale. Was on 30 and also 207 at Northolt.

[Brian 48nav]

Ian, Thank goodness you're still on the perch! I had looked at my 207 Sqn history book because I had some vague memory that he had ended up there, but to no avail! If he is mentioned I have missed it!

All the best, Brian

Jenks,

Silly question! Why do you withdraw your post? Unless you've had a row with someone!

[ihg]

....late adopter, so to say: German Luftwaffe

German Luftwaffe will buy 4 to 6 and operate them together with the French AF:


Bundeswehr will Flugzeuge für Spezialeinsätze anschaffen - SPIEGEL ONLINE (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/bundeswehr-will-flugzeuge-fuer-spezialeinsaetze-anschaffen-a-1091654.html)

(in German)

[Dougie M]

So the plan is to buy some J models and co locate them with the French at Orleans for SF tasking because they are smaller and more manoeuverable than the A400s and can land on unprepared strips. The A400s which are due to replace the C160 Transalls are delayed due to production and engine gearbox problems.
Ve know zis already.

[1066]

Memories prompted by the name of Viv Thomas.
The bow and arrow war, can't remember the Op name, but it was Vanatu, New Hebrides.
I was co pilot to Don Thompson, ex Belfasts, iirc. As alleged tactical heroes, LXX, we were positioned by 10 to Fiji, via Gander, McClellan and Hickam.
The only approach info we had for Port Villa was in narrative form in French. Without AIDU copyright we produced what we thought was the approach procedure in a format we were familiar with. On the final leg to Fiji we compared our efforts with those of the other crew, 47, Max Roberts, iirc. Fortunately the weather in that part of the world is generally good so our DIY charts were not required because our ops into Port Villa were daylight only.
The C130 slip pattern was organised so that the aircraft came south from Honolulu through the night, crossing the International Date Line, so we could do our daylight shuttle Fiji PV Fiji.
Viv Thomas turned up saying, in his v strong Welsh accent, that it was very fortunate that they had the right charts. "As we approached the IDL the chart said Sunday and it was Sunday. We crossed the line and the chart said Monday and it was Monday." I think I've got it the right way round. I await any correction from our Navs who might explain better the way charts are annotated either side of the IDL.
The sweeper Albert was operated to Hickam by an EU crew who then had to climb into the back for the next 3 long sectors home. No favouritism there then!
1066

[Nugget90]

Catching up on this thread, I note the discussion on 'co-pilot solo' in Hastings aircraft.

I was a co-pilot on No 103 Hastings conversion course at Thorney Island in early 1963 - you know, when we had a really bad winter and we could walk on the frozen sea bordering the Island! We were the first course of pilots who hadn't previously completed a tour as second pilots, so the instructors were rather curious as to how we would cope!

Anyway, we were trained to fly in the left-hand seat and I note, from my log book, that I was sent off 'solo' (i.e. with another co-pilot as my co-pilot) on 7 May when I was still 21 years old and a Pilot Officer. Mark you, my co-pilot was a Flight Lieutenant who had just finished a second pilot tour, another Flt Lt was the navigator and I had two Flt Sgts as flight engineer and AEO/signaller, the last three of whom were, I think, on the training staff. As I was the first 'straight through' pilot to be sent off thus 'solo', the instructors brought wicker chairs out of the hangar to watch the entertainment.

They must have been somewhat disappointed when I didn't depart one side or the other of the runway (as almost all my colleagues did at some stage of their conversion). No, I completed my training without ploughing a furrow in the long grass .... until .... my Final Handling Test, when I did so spectactually!!

Later, in September 1965 whilst on exchange with the RAAF I flew my first 'solo' in a similar manner on an 'A' Model Hercules at the age of 24. After completing that conversion, we co-pilots would be rostered in pairs to carry out any post maintenance air tests that were needed over the weekend. When completed to the satisfaction of our flight engineer, we were authorised to fill in the remainder of a three-hour sortie doing whatever we liked! Shooting ILS approaches to Mascot (Sydney Airport) overflying the Harbour Bridge was fun, but my favourite was very low level flying over the tree canopies of the Blue Mountains, down amongst the birds.

In March 1967, when I was aged 25, the Squadron (No 36 RAAF) made me an official captain,and I stayed as such until the end of my tour when I next flew a 'K' Model Hercules at RAF Fairford. Happy days!

[Lou Scannon]

I too was one of the young sprogs who were allowed to fly the mighty Hastings solo as students on the OCU...and when we were subsequently co-pilots on Squadrons.
There was never a problem in finding another soul for the right seat but sometimes there seemed to be a sudden shortage of staff Navs, Siggies and Gingerbeers when the cry went up of "Co-pilot solo!" Not that these men were of a nervous disposition, often being the be-medalled survivors of the Bomber offensive and Berlin Airlift but the thought of leaving the ground with someone with just 200 hours total in any seat was a touch daunting.

On one occasion the boss was reduced to carrying out a search of the building to find a staff engineer for the task. None were found, but on entering the engineers changing room a wisp of smoke was seen coming from one of their lockers. On opening the metal door he found one of his staff engineers crouched down inside having a nervous puff.

With a look of total resignation the man shrugged and grabbed his kit before walking out to the crew 'bus!

[ICM]

Dougie M: Co-pilot Solo seems to have been a general MRT force thing for, as I recall, we went up on Argosy Co-pilot Solo MCT details out on 105 and possibly back at Benson too. This was later-1960s. Maybe we were too young to know better?

[Dougie M]

ICM
The practice of Co Pilot Mutual was even more fraught!

[bingofuel]

I was a co-pilot on No 103 Hastings conversion course at Thorney Island in early 1963 - ....We were the first course of pilots who hadn't previously completed a tour as second pilots, so the instructors were rather curious as to how we would cope!


Must have taken a while to make that decision then!, I knew someone who in 1949 attended the Hastings OCU from only basic flying training and a multi engine conversion course on Wellingtons, who was placed straight into the LHS as an 'experiment' to see if new pilots could cope with the 'modern technology of the Hastings' and be trained as Captains straight away without being a second pilot.
I am not sure if he was a 'one off' or one of several at the time. He was successful and subsequently flew them for several years.

[Brian 48nav]

Sorry about the heading of my deleted message - finger trouble.

Back to FEAF - on 48 Sqn ( Hercs ) a co-pilot was converted locally to the LH seat.

He had been a creamie instructing on the Varsity at Oakington before 48. After Changi he was posted to the OCU as a QFI but before taking up his post he was selected for the ETPS course. He left after 16 years with 48 as his only squadron tour.

[1066]

When I left regular service in 1990, on PVR at age 43, I had 24 years in blue, no ground tours. LXX had been my only officially numbered squadron. 1066, two UAS and 242.
After joining the Reserve trial, came 57(R), 24 and 70 again!
1066

[DeanoP]

I was on 108 Hastings course at Thorney Island and Copilot solo was a 'must see' event as described in previous posts. On one of the solos the aircraft started to swing from side to side which resulted in one leg of the undercarriage collapsing. Luckily no one was hurt.

On the C130 OCU where I was instructing in 1967 the practice had ceased and there were no copilot solos, thank goodness! However it was more frightening having an outboard engine feathered by the staff captain at V2. It took some time for the lesson to be learnt that more aircrew have been killed practising engine failures than the unlikely event of the real thing. It has to be said that the original flight simulator at Thorney was quite basic and, I think, did not allow EFATO to be practised.

[Brian 48nav]

You were instructing on my course, No 4 July- Nov 30th 1967, and the co-pilot solos were still being done.
On Nov 8th I flew in XV188 with Laurie Martin as the pilot instructor and Malcolm Hunt as the co-pilot. Laurie in the RH seat and Malcolm in the LH. After 1hr 25 mins Laurie got out and for the co-pilot solo was replaced by another co-pilot, Bob Willson in the RH seat.
I checked with my old mate Angus Morris who was on 2 Course and he confirmed that he did his co-pilot solo with Ed Viney ( another co-pilot )in the RH seat.
I guess because no staff were on these flights it slipped your memory.
However as I said in my previous post they were no longer being carried out by 8 Course.
Regards Brian W.