Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules

[TheChitterneFlyer]

Having departed the "mob" to join British Airways, in 1988, I had left behind me a Fat Albert Fleet with four vertical arrays of engine instruments and fuel gauges that measured lbs. Twenty years later, and retired from commercial flying (due to the lack of FE positions), I succeeded an interview process to return to Trials Flying (with QinetiQ) at Boscombe Down as a civilian Heavy Aircraft Flight Engineer. To my delight, I was sent to Lyneham for a Ground School refresher course and several flight sims to get mw back into "on speed pressure up" with Fat Albert. To my horror I found everything had gone metric and those four vertical arrays of analogue engine instruments had been replaced with very small digital gauges that I could barely read.


For the hell of me I just couldn't get the metric numbers ingrained into my head, however, everything else came flooding back "in spades". Pete Fryer was still running the groundshool and, as far as I'm aware, I was the very last FE to be taught within that establishment. In the sim, it was Pete Harker who mentored me through my refresher training. All went well, except for those b*&&%y engine instruments... and not getting out of the habit of no longer talking to the engine during start-up... Fuel flow, Ignition, Oil Pressure, blah, blah! Anyway, it was a great pleasure to get back out onto the flightline to pre-flight an aeroplane, except, what's with all of this additional electronic malarkey? The flight deck looked more like the backend of a Vulcan... with extra boxes and knobs that I'd never seen before! Three weeks later... with the wheels firmly tucked away, I'm heading west across the pond for Newfie-land, Bangor, and then down to Florida to have some turrets fitted to the rear end of the aeroplane. Six weeks later, return to Florida (courtesy of BA) to pick up the aeroplane and fly it back to Boscombe to complete some performance testing; then back to the Gulf of Mexico to find some still-air for the real flight trial... No.4 shut-down and carrying out several performance climbs over the Gulf. Thank you Aunty Betty for allowing me back to fly Fat Albert again... and the TriStar; but that subject is for a different thread!


Thank you to everyone for your input to this fabulous thread... keep it up! However, let's have less of the "exchange of small quantities of liquid"... that was in Glander I think!


TCF

[Top Bunk Tester]

I am reliably informed that all 'K' Autopilots were supplied with their own tube of Superglue :E

[ancientaviator62]

Why did they change to kgs ? Who knows but it was probably someone in MOD who decided as a 'pet' project. I too had left before the change. During the build up to GW1 (a busy time for all) MOD scored the own goal of insisting that all cargo etc for the 'K' was to be in kgs. This caused the inevitable problems as well as adding to an already overburdened system.
I phoned the chap in MOD who was responsible for this. He said it had been planned for a long time. I suggested that this sort of nonsense was not what we needed at this time and a postponement might be in order. Not a chance was the reply.

[OmegaV6]

Ex-Ascoteer... If memory serves it was around 1999 that the change to metric took place ..... could be wrong .. the change to full digital gauges came some time later ...

[k3k3]

I spent a short time at Lyneham from 1978 to 1979, where I was told the Smiths Autopilot had come from the Valiants.

As for the fuel question, at Brüggen (76-78) the Jaguars were a metric aircraft but the fuel bowser meters were a mixture of lbs, kg, gallons and litres, Murphy had a field day, so some form of standardisation was needed.

[Dougie M]

http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/887b3590-8cf7-45bf-b0bd-f8d03a2879a3_zpsfroalitu.jpg

[Dougie M]

http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/141fe05c-29cc-4bd7-b092-90122be4e39c_zpsbf3xgy3f.jpg

[Dougie M]

Request for post metric fuel check was "Read the totaliser"

[kilwhang]

It is Jun '81 and I am positioning to Akrotiri with a 70 Sqn crew. We had just crossed the Northern French coast, at around FL250, when there was a loud bang. I felt a pressure surge in my ears and the freight bay filled with water vapour mist.
I realised that we'd had a rapid depressurisation (thank you North Luffenham), climbed down from the freight stack and strapped in. The crew carried out the drills and we turned back at FL80. The Loadie told me what had happened and, together, we checked around to see if we could find the problem. There was nothing apparent, the a/c was handling satisfactorily, so we continued to LYN. On landing, we found out that the Doppler di-electric panel had failed. This was situated underneath the a/c, forward of the para doors.

As per Smudge's list, the Doppler was a British fit for the 'K'. It turned out that there had been no separate servicing inspection added for the panel, even though it formed part of the pressure hull. Of course, the panel was nowhere near as robust as the metal skin and, being underneath, was vulnerable to damage - especially during strip landings.
The whole fleet was checked and, if my memory serves, a few were changed.

[November4]

Metrification caused no end of problems. Simple figures became complicated - a 10,000 lbs net became a 4544kg net. The 3k net became the 1364kg net etc.

The Army was still using lbs. So a pallet of frieght was built using lbs, check weighed in lbs and then converted to Kgs before being loaded. We weren't meant to use the simple divide by 2.2 to get the kgs weight but multiply by 0.4545 as that was more accurate or something.

The other danger was that the VC10 and IIRC TriStar were still using lbs when Albert became metric. So transferring loads from aircraft types was a recipe for disater. There is the incident with Albert in Bahrain in GW1 where the load was taken off one type and put onto Albert, the load was thought to be in lbs, converted to Kgs......yes it was already in kgs but the original paperwork showed it to be in lbs.

Nothing to do with me I hasten to add....I was in Riyadh!

[smujsmith]

k3k3,

You may have something with the Valiants, they were "retired" in 1965 ISTR, which would coincide nicely with the introduction of the K. This thread has a habit of resolving queries, when people add their "two penneth". Thanks for that.

Kilwhang,

You aren't wrong on the Doppler panel, I remember taking a team of linies to Nellis during Red Flag, to replace the resident Alberts dielectric, which had been smashed on a strip somewhere. I kept my head down about being a trade based rigger so that Lyneham/FATCOCK wouldn't pull the rigger SNCO from the team, needed for the post repair "Max Diff" pressure check.

Smudge :ok:

[TheChitterneFlyer]

I recall diverting to Nellis after the inner pane of the co-pilots side window went with a bang. We were en-route to Salt Lake City when it happened and, like a true trucker, suggested that a warmer climate would be more conducive for the window sealant to cure after replacement. It took a few days to receive the new window panel, however, on the day of our departure, I witnessed the whole of the USAF flying display team plough into the dessert floor, i.e. the airfield, and we spent a further couple of days in Vegas. As I recall, we then set off for Barksdale to join the remainder of the Red Flag slop pattern where we became redirected to go back to Nellis. I recall my being away for about two-weeks bouncing back and forth between Nellis and Gander.


Happy daze!


TCF

[DCThumb]

I was told that the reason for metrification was that the Movers had a new loading computer that worked in KGs. Could be wrong, but always happy to blame the movers...... ;)

I also remember that the J had different metric numbers to the K - could also be wrong there too!

[kaitakbowler]

The 767 glider in 1983 came about because of a Kg/Lbs/US Gals/Ltr mix up and u/s on board systems.

PM

[Brian W May]

Couldn't possibly comment, wouldn't want to upset T.

"Small quantities of fluid" could hurt your bum one would have thought . . .

OK Mr Fergie, I'll behave.

KGs had no place on a C130K, all those figures our wives and kids could quote suddenly had no place . . . I went to fly Tristars for Caledonian - much easier

[smujsmith]

Brian,

The small quantities of fluid relate to my reference to a "wee nippie sweetie", a small whisky. If you don't drink, then I'm sure there's an alcohol free version, involving carrots. Kgs certainly never belonged on Albert, for a start, I was never given any training in "continental" measurements as an apprentice at Halton. Albert, from my list above was at least from the avionics point of view given a British, not European, identity. As several have already said, why change ?

TCF,

We had a similar situation on a Caribbean trainer where we completed the low level tasking with a crazed Captains window, but had to take a 24 hour delay to replace and test the replacement screen flown down by BA. The crew, unsurprisingly had few objections to the logical fix, and surprisingly, it all ran to revised schedule. I will send you a PM regarding your time at Boscombe, hopefully it will bring back some other memories.

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

Cruising down the Eastern Seaboard of the U.S. of A, we were suddenly entertained by a loud bang and the Captain's side window went like a shower screen. This was followed by said window pinging painful splinters of glass at close intervals into the Captain's face. A bin bag and bodge tape screen kept most of the shrapnel off but soon he got fed up and we diverted into Patrick AFB. "Got a Herc window?" we asked "No" they said.
UK Ops said "Cut a piece of aluminium to size and bolt it in the frame"
"Poke Off" we replied. The box labelled "window" duly arrived on BA and the customs bloke handed it over. "You must be strong" we said. "No its quite light"
Sure enough there was no window in it.
We became quite native in Florida before it was replaced, fitted and cured in the 30 deg heat. A nice spot for a hol.

[smujsmith]

Doug,

I had the same story from a GE who was on that trip. It appears that no one checked the weight of the box related to a box, plus windscreen! No doubt, it wasn't the first "faux pas", committed by Lynehams supply system. Another "fellow GE" related their breakdown somewhere in Africa, with a seriously leaking flap hydraulic pipe that could not be fixed "on site". A request for the spare was placed, which duly arrived, courtesy of BA. Now, nothing to do directly with BA but I understand, but that they had a length limit of 2 Mtrs (whatever that is) on packages in their hold, the new pipe was around 14 feet long (a bit too long) so, the stackers bent it in half to conform to shipping limitations. you can imagine the reaction of the AGE on receipt of the bent pipe. Funnily enough, a passing VC10 dropped off an unbent version of the pipe within 24 hours.

The funniest event I personally encountered was during a return from somewhere east of Akronelli, when we had an ignition relay failure on our No3 Engine. As it was not long after GW1 there was a U.S. C130 outfit located on the airfield we were stuck at. They offered us a spare, which had a slightly different part number to the one we removed. With one start required to Akronelli we signalled Lyneham Ops for permission to use the offered spare to get us to Cyprus, and the correct part. No way said Lyneham, stay there we will send you the correct item. Well, blow me down, you know what's coming, the spare arrived Civiair from UK and was duly identified as the same part number as the item the U.S. Air Force kindly offered us 36 hours earlier. We once again corresponded with Lyneham Ops and informed them what we had received, admittedly the question we asked was "do you want us to use the -A7 that the USAF offered or the -A7 you sent ? Particularly as you insist that we need an -A12. Ops lost no time in blaming Supply Squadron for having the wrong items on their shelves and insisted on a further 36 hour delay as we waited for the correct part. I believe they sent a Propulsion SNCO to examine the second offering before dispatch. I can guarantee that there's a lot more similar anecdotes on this particular trail. I suspect that other AT fleets may have suffered similar problems.

Smudge :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Good evening all ... Albert First Aid ... marvellous stuff !!!

More please :ok:

[Brian W May]

The relevant verse of my song about the 'K': (tune Greensleeves)

"Three orange lights, pumps OFF at the rush
Christ, we're stuck here four days with an hydraulic flush
But we carry four boxes and two rubber wheels
A green towing arm and all the wrong seals"

Why do you think I wrote that?

[smujsmith]

OK Coff, not sure if I ran the whole route in previous posts, but Doug will confirm if my ageing recollection is accurate.

Our outbound flight to Adelaide, to collect the detritus of the Maritime Competion that year, continued from our run in the jungles of Borneo with the hash house harriers, with a night stop in Darwin, and then a long leg across Oz to Adelaide, where a nice night off beckoned. Not so for the two GEs, as we had been nursing a leaking prop, along the way. Our Flight Eng, ISTR the First "Lady Flight Eng" (not that it matters) was aware of the leaking rear GITZ, as was the Captain. On arrival at Adelaide, the prop hydraulic level was off the dipstick, and, we estimated unlikely to get us back to Darwin (our next scheduled stop) without being shut down. Now, one thing most GEs in my day prided themselves in was knowing where the spares or support were, and we were both well aware of RAAF Richmond, home of the Antipodean Albert. So we rang them up, spoke to their duty Engineer Officer, and asked if they could help with a prop drop, GITZ replacement, refit and EGRs as required. No probs Pom was the response, so, it was put to ATFOC and the Captain, we went to Richmind for a 24 hour, unscheduled delay.

I'm sure that Doug and the lads (and Lady) enjoyed their time in Sydney, had I and Tucker T not been busy playing with a propellor, we would have too. But, having spent that night trying to catch up on their sight seeing, we left the next day for Darwin, with a good prop, and confidence we would get Albert home.:hmm:

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/f22b9e3e2286ed701d7538a8f340f6ee_zps19897727.jpg
Posing with my "route steal" boomerang (which I still have) after an all nighter in Sydney. Hmm, Still got a good head of hair, but apologise for the ugly mug !!

Our arrival in Darwin was normal, with the standard 14-16 hours ground time planned. The next morning we were grounded by FATCOCK when our Air Eng went sick with a throat/chest infection. A 24 hour delay followed, and I can't remember who played in the crew Golf match (Doug ?) but I certainly wasn't in the winning team. The return was pretty standard for such a route, and, I have to say was one of the best memories I retain from my days as a GE. For the GE, it wasn't always Albert that threw Wobblies!!!



Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
well done digging up that list of UK supplied equipment. I wonder how much of it was new and whether much thought had been given to compatibility/mutual electronic interference. The Doppler tripping off and the 'T' handles illuminating when certain HF frequencies were used springs to mind.
I had two explosive decompressions due to the Doppler panel blowout. The first scared me to death but the on second I recognised the symptoms. Windscreen failures were not uncommon and getting the sealer to 'go off' could sometimes involve a great deal of ingenuity on the part of the G/E.

[India Four Two]

I've been following this thread since it first started and have enjoyed all the tales, but this is the first time I've ventured onto the thread, to ask a couple of questions.

Firstly, unless he is hiding behind a Bead Window, who or what was FATCOCK?
Secondly, what is flagging?

My one and only encounter with a Hercules was at Lyneham in 1968, when as a UAS APO, I was waiting for a trip to Akrotiri as a supernumerary in a Britannia.

At short notice (the engines were already running), I was offered a Hercules trip. I can't remember the official reason for the flight, but we deviated from the official plan for a rendezvous with a Campbeltown fishmonger at Macrihanish. While we were there, he made deliveries to two Varsities, one of which was from Cranwell.

I remember that there was some concern about the APU, so to avoid potentially having to explain why we were stuck on the ground at a place we shouldn't be, the Captain kept one of the engines running during the fishy transaction. :)

An added bonus of my few days at Lyneham was that I got to see Concorde 002 on its maiden flight from Filton to Fairford.

[ExAscoteer]

Firstly, unless he is hiding behind a Bead Window, who or what was FATCOCK?
Secondly, what is flagging?



FATCOCK is Smudge's name for 'ATFOC' = Air Transport Flight Operations Centre. Part of 38 Gp at Strike Command it was a 24hr manned flight watch centre that we Albert crews could refer to when 'down route'. Sometimes helpful, more usually not!

Flagging - To 'flag' somewhere is to land, do a turn round and then depart, as opposed to doing a 'night stop'.

[Wander00]

Hmm, Concorde 002. One of the two nose and visor assemblies I production controlled in my year with Marshalls of Cambridge, as it was then. Indeed, whilst I was there Marshalls got the Herc contract and Mr (later Sir Arthur) Marshall's Bentley (MCE777) disappeared, to be replaced by a Cadillac (also MCE777)

[CoffmanStarter]

Smudge ...

Are you sure that isn't a bellcrank for a Herc control line somewhere ;)

[ancientaviator62]

IFT,
in the same vein FEAF HQ was known as Fort Fumble. There were many others !

[India Four Two]

To 'flag' somewhere is to land, do a turn round and then depart, as opposed to doing a 'night stop'.

ExA,
I guessed that might be it from the context from the context. Does anyone know the origin of the term?

aa62,
CASA in Canberra has inherited the epithet Fort Fumble!

[kilwhang]

I believe the term originated from the days when the Royal Navy ruled the waves.

Royal Naval ships would visit ports in the Empire, with all flags flying, to remind the 'natives' who was boss. The only reason for the visits was a show of power and was known as 'Showing the Flag'. The term later evolved into meaning a temporary stop or transit.

Within the RAF Air Transport fleet it was changed to 'flagging' and meant what Ex-Ascoteer has already posted.

[smujsmith]

ExAscoteer and Kilwhang,

Thank you both for explaining my references to things that most of the C130K community would be familiar with. It's very easy to forget that some who follow the thread are not particularly familiar with "fleet speak". I wonder what the VC10 fleet called ATFOC, in private ?

Coff #3276, if it would fit anywhere on Albert, I would suggest the elevator input bellcrank (banana levers), from memory a similar size ! It looks good on the bedroom wall though, and thankfully survived the trip.

India 42,

What a great choice you made in your destination change. I was lucky enough to be SNCO i/c VASS at Machrihanish, long after your visit, and the fishmonger was still operating. Many a four ship Buccaneer trip, on a Friday came to get the Salmon for Laarbruchs weekend mess function. I will never forget the Nimrod from Kinloss that took on a great load of fish for a summer ball, or some such, refuelling, then being diverted to a search and rescue task. The way I heard it was that by the time the crew returned to Kinloss they were knackered, and forgot the fish. All was brought to light when a few crews later, the aircraft was "snagged" for a seriously bad smell. The rotting fish was eventually found in the APU bay, rotting. No wonder it was known as the "kipper fleet". I wonder if anyone ever experienced similar problems on Albert? Finally, you will all sigh with relief, did anyone on this thread have the experience of the large rodent that chewed the electrical system ?

Smudge :ok:

[Xercules]

I am sorry to be the debunker of some good conspiracy theories but the Movers had nothing whatsoever to do with Albert adopting metric weights. I was ATAAR Pol2 in MoD between June '93 and January '97. You may recall that this was the period of 'real' corporate and government enthusiasm for all things metric and only shortly before it became illegal for traders to sell in lbs.

At the time all the real tanker aircraft VC10 and Tristar K1 & KC1, used metric weights whilst Albert (including the tankers) and the passenger VC10s used imperial weights (lbs). There had already been a load of pallets transferred from a KC1 to Albert in which the unit of weight was not shown and what was loaded as weighing in lbs was in fact Kgs. However, that was not a direct driver of the change, just an additional justification.

Towards the end of my time in MoD both the VC10 and Albert support authorities were planning to instal new fuel gauging systems in the aircraft as the old ones were obsolete and becoming increasingly unsupportable. We (MoD) took the view that there was no point in avoiding the issue and then subsequently being ordered to convert later which very much seemed to be the way things were moving. We, therefore, decided to make the change with the fuel gauges.

The consensus then was that a big bang change would, in reality, be best and out of that idea came the metric fuel quantity stickers supposedly to complete the transfer overnight.

The only demurrals we had at the planning stage was from the AD trials and clearances team at A&AEE (Boscombe Down) who said it would be all too difficult to calculate the new weights. To force them our way I went through the AD RTS, converting every figure and then listing them giving chapter and paragraph reference, weight in lbs, weight in Kgs (to 4 decimal places) and suggested operating weight in (reasonably) round figures. Thank you very much they said and the rest was history.

Some time not very much later ATAAR earned its only ever brownie points from ACAS when being compared with the other forces, especially FJ. the edict had gone out to start the planning to change all aircraft weights to Kgs but most were dragging their feet and reporting no progress. ACAS was heard to says etching along the lines of look at the truckies who are just getting on and doing it.

At this stage, I can say I am sorry but I was hoist by my own petard as I briefly came back as a Reservist and had to learn all the new figures myself.

[smujsmith]

Xercules,

What a cracking post, and perhaps explains previous querulous mention of why metricise! Whilst most can converse in shillings and pence, as well as dollars and cents, I well remember some of the consequences of applying EU measures to UK aircraft engineering. ISTR a young Airframe mechanic at Cottesmore, being detailed to check, and top up the nose wheel tyre pressure on an MRCA aircraft. His belief that he was serving in the "British" Royal Air Force didn't help him as he took the newly labelled tyre inflation kit out to the aircraft. The Tech manual called for a tyre pressure in PSI, the inflation kit had a gauge, newly changed to show Bars. You all know what's coming, the nose wheel blew, and a near disaster was only just averted. 55 bars is a lot of PSIs. As I said in an earlier post, I reckon I might struggle with Kilos, Litres, Bars etc, I still have an understanding of how pounds, shillings and pence work, I still weigh myself in pounds and ounces and know for a fact that the wingspan of Albert is 132 Feet and 7 inches, and that its propellor diameter is 13 feet 6 inches. Should I ever have a need to know what our continental friends believe the dimensions are, I have the interweb to help. Philistine, Dinosaur, not sure which fits me best, but like many, I enjoy a pint of real ale, rather than a litre of lager.

Smudge :ok:

[Trumpet_trousers]

Towards the end of my time in MoD both the VC10 and Albert support authorities were planning to instal new fuel gauging systems in the aircraft as the old ones were obsolete and becoming increasingly unsupportable.
How does applying some cheap, pound shop gauge overlays magically improve the supportability? :confused:

[Xercules]

Whilst we were undergoing the Kg saga, some mumpty suggested that if we were to weigh in Kgs we had to change the linear units as well because, otherwise, all the trim sheets would be wrong.

To that we said "why?" To which the reply was that you cannot mix Kgs and feet and inches. We said "why not? And so the Kginch was born.

In any case, if memory serves, the trim sheet was unit less and just a graphical representation.

[Xercules]

The "cheap pound shop gauge overlays" was meant to be an interim measure only applied once the first aircraft with the actual mod came into use. You surely are aware that a whole fleet fitting would take a fair length of time.

[dragartist]

Hi Xercules, I don't think your kg. inches was invented in 97. I first came across them on the Chinook in 81. It took me a while to get my head round it particularly since the datum was way out in front.


I share your frustration with those who provided the AD RTS (I don't think we ever called it that!) when I looked after said document a few years after your time, there was certainly tables with both kgs and lbs in brackets in most of the Hercules chapters. Certainly the min and max dropping speeds at various aircraft weights to preserve the stall margins and suspended loads for parachutes.


Then someone suggested metricating the breaking strains of all the cord and wire we used. - It was not me! Honest.

[NutLoose]

Doug,

I had the same story from a GE who was on that trip. It appears that no one checked the weight of the box related to a box, plus windscreen! No doubt, it wasn't the first "faux pas", committed by Lynehams supply system. Another "fellow GE" related their breakdown somewhere in Africa, with a seriously leaking flap hydraulic pipe that could not be fixed "on site". A request for the spare was placed, which duly arrived, courtesy of BA. Now, nothing to do directly with BA but I understand, but that they had a length limit of 2 Mtrs (whatever that is) on packages in their hold, the new pipe was around 14 feet long (a bit too long) so, the stackers bent it in half to conform to shipping limitations. you can imagine the reaction of the AGE on receipt of the bent pipe. Funnily enough, a passing VC10 dropped off an unbent version of the pipe within 24 hours.


Smudge :ok:

They AOG shipped a replacement Genny out to us in NI for a Wessex, unfortunately the stacker dropped it smashing it to bits, however he really did a fantastic job packing the bits and shipping them to us.

[smujsmith]

Nutty,

Sounds about par for the course mate! On leaving the GE job, I ended up as team manager on one of Lynehams second line teams in AES. To keep my ground running chit valid, and because I liked to "keep my hand in", I often put in some long days as we put Albert back together and prepped for Air test. It was around 2200 hrs one evening, as we tried to put Albert back in the hangar, after a 14 hour day I hasten to add, that I missed the fact that while we had been out on Bay 28 beasting the donks, the team had done a Hangar sweep (under the supervision of our Flight Commander) and moved the main jacks, that usually occupied one spot only in the hangar. No excuses, In supervising the move I managed to stoof the RH External in to the repositioned Jack. Nasty hole in external, looks like I'm going to get to meet the Squadron Commander tomorrow. Anyway, we are only half knackered so I ring the duty storeman and ask him to supply us with a replacement external tank, sorry chief he says, we don't keep them here, they are all at RAF Stafford. Having driven in to work that very morning, past the building he was sitting in, I queried the 4 external tanks that had been there as I passed by. No chief, you must be wrong, my computer says we have none of those items on station. OK says I, I will meet you outside your building in 5 minutes, and we can discuss it.

It was a long night, however simple it might look, an external tank replacement is not a 5 minute job. Luckily, my lads had the spirit that used to exude from Lynehams personnel when a job needed doing. The Aircraft flew successfully on air test the next day and was handed back to the line, I had my one way interview with the boss, and stores acquired 3 serviceable, and one unserviceable external tanks. The worst part of it all was informing my Flight Commander that in future, when organising a hangar clean up, to work around the main jacks, and not move them :mad:

I'm sure there's many more such stories in the "supply chain".

Smudge :ok:

[NutLoose]

Smudge


'Ow many would you like?


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BTW want a garden shed?


C-130K Cockpit Assembly (XV221) (http://www.vwinme.com/index.php/c-130k-cockpit-assembly-xv221.html)

[Xercules]

Dragartist, I apologise for claiming an invention that was not mine. The Chinook was not alone in its datum as the Herc datum was some way out front of the Ircraft. I am sure AA62 could tell us where exactly.

[Xercules]

One day I was in Stn Ops when SLOPS and his Engineering counterpart were discussing external tanks. The problem was that one of the tankers in Ascension had a U/S one and how did we get a spare to it.

Apparently we had no means of air transportation for them. I suggested that we did but that they had overlooked it. "What was it?" They asked.

"We hang them under the wing and use one off the next freighter through ASI." I left them considering this novel solution but do not know the outcome. It would, of course, meant that the freighter then "transporting" the U/S tank would have had to stage somewhere between Dakar and LYE for extra fuel.

[ksimboy]

Xerc, the datum was 30.4inches in front of the nose. I really must find something better to think about at this time of the day. :*

[kilwhang]

.......or, especially for Xerc: 77.22cm :)

[Brian 48nav]

My off-spring are always raising their eyes to the skies when I rant at the BBC wx giving temperatures in C not F, and constant reference to distances in kms not miles, my favourite scream at the TV being 'We haven't gone f**king metric here in UK'.

"Come on Dad, get with it " they cry. "OK " I say, then to No1 son," How tall are you and what do you weigh?".

" 6ft 4 and 14 stone ' he replies.

"I rest my case " I say with a smirk.

Herc' reference point:-

Doesn't bulkhead 245 have something to do with it?

[ancientaviator62]

Does anyone know why the datums were so far out in front of the nose ?
The only explanation I ever heard for the Herc was to allow for the soon to be fitted (to the prototype) CCWR !

[ancientaviator62]

A story already recounted but ..............
U/S in Dulles with captains ASI. First parcel that arrived was empty, second contained a clock ! Much merriment from crew and more beer chits.

[dragartist]

Datum:- I figure it is just a point in space to take measurements from. There is most likely a face on a jig from which all the other jigs are placed to get the frames in the right place.


I may not be altogether correct but in English aircraft Frame one may have been the first frame onto which the cloud and clunk was bolted. Before cloud and clunk it was just a nose cone.


Frame 245 was not the two hundred and forty fifth frame from the front. It was 245 inches from the datum.


Common language in the Airdrop world was Tie Down Row (TDR) it amazed me how people could convert from Mk1s to Mk3s. TDRs were on a 20" pitch

[kilwhang]

A/c are measured in 3D. As others have said, nose to tail is defined by Flight Stations (FS) and the datum is decided by the manufacturer and is typically forward of the actual nose.

Height is defined by Water Lines (WL) and measured from a distance below the actual bottom of the tyres......perhaps with the a/c on jacks.

Width/Span is in Buttock Lines (BL) and measured from the centre line. Wings have their own Wing Stations (WS)

So, I could walk up to Smudge and tell him that there was some damage at FS323/WL70/BL42........and he would know EXACTLY where to go.
Wouldn't you Smudge :)

And, as AA62 would be able to tell you, the Centre of Gravity (CofG) is measured as a percentage of the Mean Aerodynamic Chord (MAC). The MAC has its own forward datum called Leading Edge of Mean Aerodynamic Chord (LEMAC) and measurements are taken from there.

For those of you who have managed to remain awake this far .......thank you!

[smujsmith]

It's been a long time Kilwhang, but somewhere in the region of No 3 engine would be my current guess. Should I prove to be wrong, I will go with whatever your answer is, at my age , the quiet life is always the best option. "Ik wed dat ik verkeerd ben, maar het is altijd een lach" Hang on, maybe the booster system reservoir might be the problem, it's inches not feet after all. Or I might say, What's the problem Eng !!!!!

Smudge :ok:

[Brian W May]

I was told the Index was based upon a probe that was fitted to the prototype/s (not the size of, but similar to Snoopy) in order to measure undisturbed air etc.

[smujsmith]

Hmm, with due respect to many of the illustrious posters on the thread, surely, STN 245 aft was where the GE was required to be during a flight, forward of that was for the important people. I knew my place, and, was happy to take Chf Techs pay for operating my hammock on long duration flights. I once managed a few minutes on a Lyneham/Aldergrove trip. Though, I must say I didnt get my usual top of the drop CW2 !! As I trusted the pilot to be capable of flying the aircraft, I always understood that the trim of the aircraft was in the hands of the Loadmaster, and I'm damn sure I never met one that couldn't do the job, I'm still here aren't I?

Smudge:ok:

[ksimboy]

Let's not forget the "Ring at FS 165" sticker on the roof of the flight deck!

[Dougie M]

And the "Hole at FS 150 " chinagraphed on the soundproofing ahead of it

[1066]

I think I was told that FS0 was on the wall at Marietta. That was the datum where the jigs were referenced when building the fuselage.
Slight thread drift but may also be folk lore. When the Belfasts were built at Shorts the tide level had to taken into account when setting up the jigs!
Anyone know the truth?
1066

[ancientaviator62]

The 30 inches in front of the nose datum is the Manufacturer's Datum Point (MDP). This was known as Station 0 and all the other references are from this point. The Trim Datum was at FS 527. This was the datum used for weight and balance purposes.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/HERCULES%20TRIM%20ENVELOPE%2010001_zpsz4aner4g.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/HERCULES%20TRIM%20ENVELOPE%2010001_zpsz4aner4g.jpg.html)

Whilst looking for something else this came to light.
It shows the ORIGINAL 'K' trim envelope with restriction imposed when fuel was in the externals. It does not show the forward and aft airdrop extensions.
So you can see that the MAC is 164.5 inches (all in 'old' money !) long and Lemac is 487.4 inches aft of the MDP. Cof G runs from 15 to 30 percent of the MAC but is also a function of the a/c weight.
I think that is quite enough for now ! My brain hurts.

[Brian W May]

Bill . . . DO desist! :=

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
this Pavlovian dog could not resist it ! Today's excuse is that Coffman wanted something along these lines I think. I promise to skulk at the back of the class for a while at least !

[CoffmanStarter]

AA62 ...

I don't mind taking the wrap old chap ... But I'm hoping one of you Gentlemen Loadmasters will turn up a K Load Sheet at some point. Sad I know ...

[Dougie M]

If it happened that the DZ winds were out of limits for Para-Wedge it sometimes occurred that the sortie was ordered to go ahead with wedge only for practice. There then was a frantic installation of heavy rubber "railway sleepers" for ballast which were moved again after the drop to trim the aircraft. Always a source of endless fun amongst Loadmasters.




http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/91d7281c-1174-4449-a02f-1d523a35a520_zpsm6jfbfuw.jpg

[ksimboy]

Ah the final restraint bit of string on the wedge load!

[Dougie M]

The best ever intercom call on a para-wedge drop from a student Nav would only have been made worse by interrupting and it was a long DZ.


"RED ON, no, there's a five second gap between RED ON CUT and GREEN ON, Oh sh*t DUMMY RUN, DUMMY RUN"


Loadmaster- "Load gone"


The troops stayed on board but all their weapons and bergens drifted down on the lone chute.


It would take a heart of stone not to crack a smile.

[Clunk60]

DM
On a similar vein, one student Nav instructed us down the back that it was "almost red on, standby to cut".

[ksimboy]

Clunk, similar to the Scottish co, who as we ran in to the DZ with the B4 AE ready (safety line removed) , announced over the intercom " visual with the DZ, 12 o'clock 3 miles Red roofed building with the green field behind it." So tempted to manually release the extractor!!

[ancientaviator62]

Some of the non 'K' readers may not know the SOP for airdrop. It was to drop on the lights (red/green) and if no lights then drop on the intercom calls that were concurrent with the lights.
If no intercom no drop. Thus the Loadmasters who dropped on the calls from the flightdeck were carrying out the correct procedure. Hence ksimboy's temptation to use the extractor parachute manual release handle and let the load go. On training sorties an experienced Loadmaster could sift the intercom chat but on an op drop the organised chaos down the back did not usually afford such luxury.

[Alcazares48]

Some of the non 'K' readers may not know the SOP for airdrop. It was to drop on the lights (red/green) and if no lights then drop on the intercom calls that were concurrent with the lights.
If no intercom no drop. Thus the Loadmasters who dropped on the calls from the flightdeck were carrying out the correct procedure. Hence ksimboy's temptation to use the extractor parachute manual release handle and let the load go. On training sorties an experienced Loadmaster could sift the intercom chat but on an op drop the organised chaos down the back did not usually afford such luxury.

I was being checked on a double MSP, the Nav called "Provisional 2 minutes"
What the ????
I responded "2 minutes - removing restraints" and waited a second before commencing.
I had no idea of the chaos going on up front and we ended up flying around for 20 minutes with an unrestrained load as we were apparently "lost"!

[ksimboy]

Going back to the days of PRT and the ASRA drop, we flew off the Cornish coast on a beautiful Summers day with the doors open. The Sqn Captain, universally unpopular, failed to say he was briefing the procedure. On instructions from staff ALM every time the word mark was said out went the flame floats, Staff Captain commented on the pretty lines of smoke drifting across the oggsplash, with no penny dropping in LHS. Preparing to enter search area, staff ALM informed Captain we couldn't do the training as we had nil stock of flame floats left! Captain was suitably chastened for at least 5 minutes as we dropped the ASRA kit anyway (not just the containers but rope box and baseboard ) to give the simulated survivors something to occupy them till rescue !

[smujsmith]

I wonder, if I may ask, if someone could describe the procedure for the drivers airframe through the OCU, both as a prospective complimentary pilot, and the further training to the left hand seat. I'm sure that Albert wasn't an easy piece of kit to fly, and there must have been some points in training where our future Captains thought they might not "make the grade" . There's a lot of stuff about airdrop, precision etc on the thread that seems to assume that the two winged master race had a simple job, hardly worthy of mention. Come on pilots, give us the gist of moving from METS to Albert.

Smudge :ok:

[Brian W May]

give us the gist of moving from METS to Albert.

M18, M1, M4, A3102 (unless you got the wrong Albert in your GPS and arrived at Dover . . . )

OK, hat and coat . . .

[CoffmanStarter]

Brian ...

So that would be the Prince Albert Dover then ...

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/31/60/2316094_b5c4daab.jpg

Where I had my first beer many years ago ... Strange but true ;)

Excellent shout Smudge on the next topic :ok:

[Brian W May]

Nice one Coff - I of course had no idea that was there (I also knew where Lyneham was . . . )

[ksimboy]

Today is the 30th anniversary of the mid-air collision between Albert and a Royal Navy Sea King in the Falklands. RIP Naval Aviators.

[Wander00]

Led to a classic goof - relative of the SK crew taken into "VIP" part of the Tristar hangar at (then) MPA to be confronted by a wall of photos of the Herc with half its wing missing. Oh dear


RIP all fallen aviators and today especially that SK crew

[smujsmith]

An apt post Ksimboy, I'm sure all contributors to this thread would support it. I also hope that the crew of the Hercules have come to terms with the event, particularly Bob B, who I enjoyed a six week tour in Bahrain with, post GW1. The only time I, as a GE, was ever allocated to a crew, not a route or aircraft.

Smudge

[ksimboy]

We cant have run out of stories surely?

[smujsmith]

I was rather hoping to hear from a pilot or two, re progression through METS to Squadron, and then to the left hand seat. Must be some yarns in there ksimboy, but they all seem t.o have gone shy on us.

Smudge :ok:

[sixfootfive]

I once accidentally turned a member of the Parliamentary Defence Committee (and minder) upside down over Pendine, took a C&W band flying at El Centro and most memorably replied to a polite enquiry as to my current position by an American Pilot to Metro guy as 'the copilot'.

[CoffmanStarter]

Come on 6Foot5 ... That's at least three stories requiring a tad more expansion ... No Names No Pack Drill :ok:

[Dougie M]

Now that time has drawn a veil over the South China Sea it can be told. A certain Captain on a flight to Hong Kong with a replacement engine decided against advice to consume a chicken curry in Penang. The following morning, apart from the usual post curry burbling he appeared alright. Some hours later into the flight as we passed our PNR for a return to Butterworth and the crit point for Clark Field, Manila the Captain went below with "tummy pains". Some time later the Loadie proclaimed the aft end of the freight bay a no-go area and could he come up on the flight deck. Shortly afterwards the phone on the para door intercom came alive and the Captain declared that he was not "very well"
Well we had a couple of hours to go so we thought that he would be delivered of the curry ere long. It was suspicious that the chicken had four legs.
Some time afterwards He appeared on the flight deck, naked apart from his flying boots and a huge blue nappy made out of kim wipe. He was a pale ethereal green colour and resembled a close approximation to the incontinent green waterfowl that wished he could fly. Well he couldn't and neither could C*** K*** who suddenly hugged his belly and a fearsome stench pervaded the flight deck. I was on oxygen and it still got through. He fled below and we decided to divert. To the left was Viet Nam. Still not good then. Brunei was too far so we called Clark. There is a sudden tropical storm advancing from the east, they said. It will be over us in one hour and Hong Kong in three. Just on our ETA. Well it looked like we would have to press on. Can you set up the Cheung Chow, Stone Cutters, IGS for a landing on 13 the come up and sit in the Captain's chair to hold the tiller said the Co.
Er No I said, too many switch overs. I can come up at the chequer board.
That's too late he said.
As the wind increased to 40 kts from the east and the cloud rolled in we did the only option remaining.
Put out a Mayday call for priority landing against the traffic onto RWY 31. We came in lowlevel past Tathong Point NDB so we could see the sea and with me doing my first landing in the captain's seat, kept the right wing down till we were over the runway. The Meat Wagon rushed Orville off to hospital with his passport tucked in his nappy - a new one with puzzled expressions.
Lots of San Migs later we felt good enough to phone to ask if he was O.K.










http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/5019cce6-671f-4718-85ac-ed077727275a_zpsbdhi1rys.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Sorry Doug ... I first lost it at "four legged chicken" ... then again at the reference to "Orville" :D:D:D:D

Absolutely brilliant story ...

[downsizer]

I was rather hoping to hear from a pilot or two, re progression through METS to Squadron, and then to the left hand seat. Must be some yarns in there ksimboy, but they all seem t.o have gone shy on us.

Smudge :ok:

Lets be fair, as someone else once said, you have to fail a lot of flying training to end up as a pilot on hercs....:ouch:

[GlobalNav]

"Lets be fair, as someone else once said, you have to fail a lot of flying training to end up as a pilot on hercs...."


Oh that's low, very low.

A pilot with several 1,000 Herc hours is likely to be a very good pilot indeed. Get it done and get it back, no matter what unexpected circumstances arise - and in IMC at O'dark thirty.

[WIDN62]

downsizer

OK I will be the first to bite!
If you (or the unnamed person you are quoting) are trying to be funny, then you are failing. If you are serious then you are totally out of order!
You do not have to fail anything to finish up on Hercs. Yes, some have had a rocky road through flying training, but others have made the grade all the way through and been selected as more suitable for the multi-engine role. Many are slow starters and some who have been given the benefit of the doubt early on have progressed to become excellent captains.
I, like many others over the years, never failed anything, but was not good enough to go fast-jet - thank goodness! - and am still here to tell the tale.

Edit: the second to bite!

[Ken Scott]

Very low downsizer. I only failed the one trip, at the secret NW Wales base, passed every other test in training and since, and a good thing too as I would probably have become a statistic a long time ago. There are some excellent pilots on C130s who could and indeed did go onto fly FJs, not everybody wants to go that way (although I did).

Did you star through training onto single seat?

[smujsmith]

Dougie, you star again, and, would that be the flight where they finally decided that there was another meaning to the translation of Hong Kong (Fragrant harbour) ?

GlobalNav and WIDN62, well said both.

Coff, PM inbound.

Smudge :ok:

[chickenlover]

Don't bite fellas - downbeater obviously knows not much about the Herc world. Many of us, like me, did fail elsewhere and ended up on Hercs. I, for one, am very happy that I did. There are also many who never failed a trip in their lives. I am 're-union-ing' with a motley bunch this weekend, and will enjoy chuckling with the former QWIs, single-seaters, etc over their failed careers. Perhaps I could ask the 4 DFC winners how they feel about being failures ?

[Dougie M]

Well spoken Chickenlover

[Brian W May]

Must admit I flew with several FJ retired pilots (mainly medical/and or Martin Baker Back) and I thought them mustard.

Flew mostly with guys that didn't make the FJ fleets. We pulled their legs about being 'failures' but both they and I knew, I would fly anywhere with most of them as they rarely made me feel anything but secure.

A fine bunch in general and they taught me collectively a shed load about aviation (if only what NOT to do on occasions . . . ).

So shall we disregard the bollocks above, if it was humour, then have another go - but make it funny?

PS Did I just stick up for jockeys . . . oh the shame . . . :p

[smujsmith]

Brian, as an AGE I managed 5000 hours plus, "operating my hammock", and never once got on an aircraft with any worries about the competence of any of the operating crew. Where downsizer gets his pathetic opinion from is beyond me, I well remember during GW1 seeing many fast jet operators being grateful for Albert turning up with the mail and the occasional treat. Of course, there's always the crewroom gob****e, who is better than everyone else, knows it all, and is usually a totally incompetent f***wit. His reluctance to justify his stupid comment is indicative of the peurile nature of the post and his comment, and yes, well worthy of ignoring. Yes to your question, you just stood up for "jockeys", I think we all would.

Smudge:ok:

[ExAscoteer]

Wow!

I've seen some downright utter bollocks posted to this Forum over the years. Fortunately, up until now, such ****e has not infected this thread.

Then along comes Downsizer with his stupidity winning first prize in the idiocracy stakes.

You, sir, are a F*****g TIT.

[ancientaviator62]

IMHO we should just ignore the ignorant. Now does anyone remember Operation Sheepskin ?

[Dougie M]

Anguilla was before my time on the fleet but they did send Andovers too. The Argosies were denied the Caribbean sunshine.

[chickenlover]

Agreed. While we wait for AA62's next instalment, how about some snaps to clear the air. Apologies if these have been up before, but frankly, my admin is a shambles. It's Friday, the sun is shining and I'm lucky enough to be going to quaff an ale or 3 with Dougie M later and will get to hear some more ripping yarns in person :)

Firstly-not my snap but its on the inter web and its a great picture.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/limage_05_24_58-Version2_zps21fc31cc.jpg

Happy days.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/scan.jpg

Just for Smuj

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/Copyofimg255.jpg

An oldie but a goldie. Never tire of seeing this.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/16652_241230429368_2374835_n-Version2_zpsd73f4f3b.jpg

And finally, thought long and hard about posting this as it is not mine, and I don't have the photog's permission to post, but it's such a great shot, I hope he doesn't mind sharing it with a bunch of Herc people. I found it a while ago and tried to track the photog down and failed. I've looked on flickr and the usual haunts but can't find it again now. So, if the photog ever comes through here, get in touch and I will make amends.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/Screen%20Shot%202014-06-13%20at%2022.09.20_zpssnomkmed.jpg

Thats it for now, happy weekend folks.

[Jackw106]

Deviating slightly from the Herc but I like a good parade

http://youtu.be/brYzxsgqEGg

[Wander00]

Well that's two horses for defaulters. However, takes me back to the mid 70s when I worked for Norfolk County Council and two years running helped man their stand at the Royal Norfolk Show

[smujsmith]

Chickenlover, how do you get away with posting pure sex photographs on this thread ? Thanks though, as a Lightning loving ex Albert employee, I'm sure you have catered for my small deviance:rolleyes:

Hope the soirée with Mr M was good, a great way to spend an evening I reckon.

Smudge :ok:

[WIDN62]

The Royal Norfolk Show.

I did that a few years ago with the Internationally Acclaimed Parachute Display Team of the Royal Air Force.

I swear the hotel we stayed in was the one used for filming the Alan Partridge programmes - my room even had a Corby Trouser Press!

[ancientaviator62]

DM has rightly pointed the way for Op Sheepskin. When the Caribbean states were granted independence some of them were 'bundled' together to make them viable. Anguilla was attached to Antigua. However in 1969 they decided they wished to go it alone. Antigua appealed to the UK for assistance and Op Sheepskin was the result. We did not send the army we sent UK 'bobbies'.
My logbook tells me I did the first such trip on 9 April 1969 in XV 293.
We routed via Gander, Bermuda to Antigua. You can imagine the conditions down the back with an a/c full of policemen. They did not mind as they were off on a well paid 'jolley'.
The Andovers set up a detachment in Antigua to provide a shuttle to Anguilla
and were there for a goodly time. Nice work if you can get it !

[ksimboy]

Then Dougie fell off a banana in Antigua, while there in support of the Volcano eruption in Montserrat. Along with the the Lyneham Sumo wrestling team. Highlight of one evening was sundowners on Shirley Heights, our eng , fed up boring the rest of the crew attached himself to some paying tourists and found himself attacked by a land crab. No laughter at all amid the rum punches!!

[Dougie M]

This det wasn't Op Sheepskin but came about when the top of Chancellor's Peak in the Souffriere mountains on Montserrat blew up. We were sent out to Antigua with a bunch of marines to evacuate the islanders and the marines to rescue any casualties and maintain order. We spent several days shuttling between Antigua and Blackburne airfield on Montserrat with refugees. The marines carried their search equipment including thermal imaging kit. They had to be reminded that it was a volcano we were on fer chrissake! On a day off at the end we decided to take a banana ride. Rum punches were involved. Being aircrew and not exactly slim the tow boat couldn't dislodge us. After a brief interlude of chat we then saw the tow boat at 50kts heading at 180 deg to us. The orange towing string then snapped back the nose of the banana and catapulted said sumo wrestling team up into the air. I clearly remember hitting the sea and seeing the 2nd row forward 18st co-pilot in plan view directly above me descending at 32ft sec.
As we struggled ashore I felt nothing until I tried to stand up. The journey home via Rosie Roads was v. painful but we WERE on active duty.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/d691c6cc-95c1-41f6-a911-24d82417df72_zpsdd8oqnfr.jpg

[ksimboy]

Or to quote the eng "thiiiiiiit"!!!

[smujsmith]

You are cruel ksimboy, I'm sure it's not true that they had to flag Rosy Rhodes as a result of having to offload fuel to accommodate the weight of the operating crew.:eek: just been re reading the magazine reference from Coffs first post, I suppose the very source of this thread. It covers many nations Alberts, in various shapes and sizes. I was fortunate to get a trip on an 8th SOS gunship during a det. to Hurlbert many moons ago. I have always wondered why the RAF didn't find a need for the beast. During that det we also got introduced to the MOAB, and we're reminded that 8th SOS lost a crew, delivering one of these massive weapons over Kuwait during GW1. Having spent more than 5000 hours of flight in our own Albert, I wonder if the RAF ever looked seriously at using the aircraft in an offensive mode ? Any thoughts chaps?

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Good morning Gents ...

I hope you don't mind me asking a quick question :ok:

I was reading a short Biography about Air Marshal Sir Cliff Spink yesterday which mentioned that, aside from flying the F4M in the South Atlantic, he also flew the Hercules. It would seem he did this when he was Station Commander of Mount Pleasant Airfield. Would that have been a local RH seat checkout or did he do the OCU ?

I appreciate Sir Cliff is a highly regarded VSO/leader/pilot ... it was just a surprise to see Albert on his type list given his fighter pedigree.

Best ...

Coff.

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
like most of the VSO he almost certainly did not do a full Herc OCU. He may have done a Herc famil prior to taking up his appointment. I am sure someone who was there at the time can fill us in on the details, but probably RHS at least for the T/O and landing.
On a slight thread drift there is the story of a non qualified AOC who tried to insist on doing the take off in a VC 10 at Muharraq. Perhaps Beags can fill in the details.

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
the only firing offensive mode that I believe was ever trialled was the GPMG 'gunship'.
The only 'bang' trial over the ramp that I am aware of was the mines for use during Op Corporate. We have cover both these in earlier posts. There is of course no reason why we could not have dropped other ordnance as did the USAF. But when doing the HEART job I did not find any evidence of even the suggestion of such a trial
I once suggested that the APFC with an impact detonator would make a good inprovised weapon !
I suspect dragartist would count the MSP as a lethal ramp dropped bit of kit !

[Wander00]

Hopefully not the same VSO who wanted the autoland demo on the Tri*

[Kengineer-130]

Bit of an old school Herc video, apologies if it has been posted already! Looks to be way before my time on Albert, but does anyone recognize anyone? :ok:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=aVjuw3g7jgE

[Dougie M]

I do recall at Lyneham when the AOC who had recently completed the 3day VSO fam course decided to lead a 15 ship formation for a para drop in Denmark. The instructor pilot in the Co's chair had his hand surreptitiously behind the control column in order to pull back as we thundered across the North Sea at low level. The warm fuzzy feeling was even more distant when his "Airship" took the occasional swig from a blue ridged glass bottle which he had in the top pocket of his flight suit.
There are phases of every sortie when you can relax for a few minutes. This was not one of them. The DZ at Lolland couldn't arrive soon enough and the landing at Vaerlose was a relief.
There is a reason for the 3month OCU being longer than 3days.

[Captain Sensible]

During Corporate when we heard that the Nimrods were being armed with Sidewinders, I asked for our 2 Hercs to be similarly armed for Op Mikado, but was told to pull my self together stupid boy, or some such words! So we soldiered on with our hand-held (hairdryer) RWR and hope in our hearts. It's all in the book.

[ExAscoteer]

smudge,
the only firing offensive mode that I believe was ever trialled was the GPMG 'gunship'.


There was of course the release of paper cups from one of the Para Doors darn sarf.

Apparently, to the F4 driver, it looked like tracer... :E:E

[smujsmith]

I was a mere RH Para door occupier during a det in "the Gulf" in the build up to GW1. As was our Captains wish, we regularly did fighter affil with both MB133 ? and a Hawk, flown by a smashing exchange pilot from the RAF. On one such sortie, we were accompanied by a couple of AD lads, who had strapped a bloody great Gimpy onto the middle of the ramp. Well, the Hawk got in behind us in the turn, and up close, at which point, the ramp was lowered and the Hawk pilot got a face full of Gimpy. His reaction was a serious pull and, in his own words in the party room that night, an over stress of the aircraft. This is the bloke who delighted in slipping a gun camera picture of my LH Para door position bang to rights, under my room door. I promise, I'm still looking for it, it will be posted.

Captain Sensible, read the book, bloody nutters the lot of you !!! With the greatest respect :ok:

Smudge:ok:

[4mastacker]

ancientaviator62 wrote:

......Antigua appealed to the UK for assistance and Op Sheepskin was the result. We did not send the army we sent UK 'bobbies'.
My logbook tells me I did the first such trip on 9 April 1969 in XV 293......

I was doing an air movements tour at the time and was on the loading team for that flight. The bobbies turned up at Movements with their riot gear, respirators, shields, golf clubs and scuba gear. They thought they were flying civvie airline until we took them out to the aircraft. The Met Police Inspector in charge of the first chalk asked where his men were going to sit. "On there!" we said, pointing to the para seats down the side. The look of horror on their faces as they realised there were no trolley dollies... only a hairy-@rr$$ed AQM, was a joy to behold.

Many years later, I had taken Mrs 4ma and the stackerettes to Somerset for a holiday when I bumped into that Inspector in Minehead, to where he retired after his Met service and ran the very nice hotel that we had booked into. We chatted over (quite) a few beers about events leading up to boarding that flight and afterwards. He reckoned he had been deaf for weeks afterwards... however, I think he forgave the RAF as I didn't have to pay for a single beer and he waived the bill for the girls.

[smujsmith]

Ahh Stacker ;

"look of horror on their faces as they realised there were no trolley dollies... only a hairy-@rr$$ed AQM, was a joy to behold. ". - you may well be referring to our very own AA62 in that statement.

Smudge :eek:

[4mastacker]

Smudge,

Maybe not. IIRC there were two on that flight. ;)

[smujsmith]

Stacker, great to know, AA62 will of course ensure that the "hairy @rse" is blamed on his co loadie. Hope it wasn't C**is U**ie, the least likely to meet your description. Did she work for you AA62 ? Definitely the best lady loady I went down route with ! Ooooo errr, have I opened another bag of nails ?

Smudge :ok:

[4mastacker]

Smudge,

There were no lady AQM's at the UK's secret air transport base in Gloucestershire which was so secret that the Met Police couldn't find it.

[ancientaviator62]

4mastacker,
welcome . Another former member of the Fairford flat Earth Society ! My recollection of the Sheepskin trips is that they were single loadmaster trips as were most of our pax trips in those days. We were not brought into line with the shiny fleet until later. No WRAF loadmasters on the 'K' until very much later. I was on a committee that discussed their introduction to the 'K'. My attitude was simply if they could do the complete job then no problem but if it was just a PR stunt then NO.

[4mastacker]

AA62,

Thank you for that. I thought there were two Q's on the early flights. Some of those Sheepskin loads were a right PITA because of the wicker hampers that were being used. Trying to strap them down was like herding cats - as you tensioned on one side, t'other sprang up, and repeated several times.

[ancientaviator62]

4mastacker,
I had completely forgotten about those bl**dy wicker baskets !
Those were the days before the 10K nets too. We were still using some of the junk from the Hastings. How did we all manage.

[R4H]

For Chickenlover. The pic you couldn't find details for was at China Lake during a trial det. Photog was USN civilian photog. No copyright, just asked that USN be mentioned. Just complied with this message. Lots of good pics, singles and pairs. Will post some when I figure out how to do it on here. Otherwise pm me and I will send couple of cd/dvd with pics.

[CoffmanStarter]

R4H ...

Check PM's re pic posting :ok:

Coff.

[Nugget90]

Mention of Anguilla brings back memories of landing there on 30 March 1969: one thousand feet of concrete and a muddy overrun with a palm tree as an obstacle on approach.

I have in my study one of the insurgents' flags: blue lower half and white above with three orange dolphins chasing in a circle. The joke was that the troops on the ground bought up all the 'rebel' flags and flew them from whatever: Land Rovers, control tower, etc. The Bobbies had nowhere to spend their allowances so put their money into the POSB: Post Office Saving Bank.

When we flew out we had on board a 'liberated' iron cannon. I had no idea of its weight so we secured it as near as possible over the C of G and lashed it down securely.

At the local 'Base Station' of Antigua I recall the fuel hose coming loose and AVTUR spreading out all over the tarmac. We towed the Herc away but the fuel completely ruined my shoes. The flight home to Fairford went via Bermuda where we spent two most enjoyable nights.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

downsizer Lets be fair, as someone else once said, you have to fail a lot of flying training to end up as a pilot on hercs....:ouch:That was possibly me.

I first wrote this excellent piece of banter in the Akrotiri Station Mag in the early nineties in the "Scorpion's Sting" It followed an op where 2 or 3 Wessex helicopters went to the Bekka Valley to bring out some trapped Palestinians. I was irked that news reports failed to mention the groundcrew who had worked 24hrs through the night to get the aircraft ready. Having waved the master race off, we all went to a well earned free breakfast in the JRM where I got a phone call reminding me that I was on Orderly Corporal (for a further 24 hrs) Also, in the race to return home for tea & medals, the aircrew left 3 groundcrew behind in Beirut. They had to hitch a lift back on a Louis Line ferry, in uniform.


I have unleashed this banter a few times at Top Table speeches, and possibly a couple of times on this website and it was always received well.


My era on Hercs followed my Cyprus tour - so 1995 onwards - later than most of the posters on this thread.


I was considering dusting off this old gem, as I have seen Smudge state several times that he was a "mere GE", and it would lead me to remind Smudge that he was at the absolute top of his game....unlike the rest of the crew etc.


For those who got excited, I offer another gem:-
If you long for the taste of a standard NATO cup of tea on Albert, and your wife can't seem to get it quite right...
1. Paper cup
2. NAAFI Yorkshire Tea
3. A little bit of Loadmaster or GE urine

[ancientaviator62]

Nugget90,
I recall after Sheepskin that 47 Sqn at Fairford had a pair of cannons at the entrance to the squadron. I departed to 48 shortly after so I do not know if they survived the move to Lyneham.

[1066]

Re AA62's WRAF ALMs meeting.
I remember standing by the STS, Goatacre, coffee bar, sometime between 87 and 90 and being asked by a visiting Gp Capt what I thought about WRAF being trained for the remaining 4 roles on the Hercules.
"What's the problem? We already have them doing the most physically demanding job on the aircraft".
I think he was expecting a lot more resistance. His expression said, "I am not programmed to receive this reply".
1066

[ancientaviator62]

1066,
a lot of the initial discussion about WRAF loadmasters coming to the Hercules centred on the 'are they strong enough' factor. This referred to the operation of the crew entrance door, para doors and escape hatches. The only way to find out was to try it. As a five foot seven 140 lb male I thought if I could cope so could most of them. Remember the USAF and other air forces already had female loadmasters, but hey we always reinvent things don't we.
They were posted to route squadrons only because they did not do the para course portion of the ALM training. At this stage ALMs were still physically involved in paratroop despatching.

[CoffmanStarter]

R4H ... A 'Photo Posting Crib Sheet' should be in your eMail in-box :ok:

[kilwhang]

Sir Peter,

I think the correct chemical formula is: H2O + K9P = NAAFI Tea

[R4H]

Pics courtesy of USN.
Thanks Coffmanstarter for pic post gen. Quite a few pics, will only post a couple at a time rather than swamp with them.


http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/CLake1/a%208_zpsslwtxwin.jpg


http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/CLake1/a%2012_zpsnt1tia87.jpg


http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/CLake1/a%2011_zps3p6mwfpl.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Excellent pics R4H :ok:

[smujsmith]

Great shots R4H,

My old friend 205 I see, with a few added bumps since I enjoyed many hours at low level in it. Keep them coming Sir.

Smudge:ok:

[Brian W May]

Who painted them that nasty green colour and why?

Seems to me that it takes a really dedicated committee to manage to always ensure the RAF Hercules was painted in the most inappropriate colours for its role for most of its life. This lot might have taken time out from the design of the camel as the prettiest animal in Nature.

[R4H]

Pics courtesy of USN


http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/CLake1/a%2020_zpsafgntpdc.jpg


http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/CLake1/a%2019_zpsy2kwwmgu.jpg


http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/CLake1/a%2021_zpsxm1br2cz.jpg

[Brian W May]

Lovely pics even though the aircraft's a shyte colour . . . thanks

[maximo ping]

Brian, the colour was created by scientists rather than a committee, and was optimised for the night environment in which the ac was mostly operated in its last decade and a bit. Looked an awful lot better than the light grey that it replaced.

[CoffmanStarter]

Great pics again R4H :ok:

Perhaps you could give a little more background please ... would I be correct in assuming that these flights might have had something to do with Desert Landing Trials in the US ?

Keep them coming :)

Coff.

[Brian W May]

Blown up a bit, it looks like Bumper Rowley (RIP) in the LHS.

Thanks Maximo, that makes sense. Reckon they should have left them Crud and Custard - then straight to Shyte Green.

[smujsmith]

R4H,

Re Coffs query on the Det, I think in my time Yuma sometimes replaced the MFF Det to El Centro. Seeing as 200 is in there too, my guess is it must be a "flight" det of some sort.

Smudge:ok:

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

It's the China Lake det. Also using Inyokern strip up the road.
Part of the TAC Trg Course. Hard work on the det, but the chance of a middle weekend of R&R in San Diego


edit: There was a Top Gear clip from the Inyokern strip


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFF2bkiHNVQ

[R4H]

All out of China Lake. 2 separate trials. One of the bits stuck on front. Can't remember what the other one was. I'm LHS in pics. Took advantage of second ac and USN photog to get some different pics plus China Lake appreciated them.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

Someone must surely recognise the geezer in the cupola?


TCF

[chickenlover]

Great Pics R4H Thanks very much for posting-I have PM'd you. My vote is for GM in the cupola and 'Dad' behind the co. Do I recognise Les on the Ramp as well ?
Cudos to the USN photog for some great snaps.

[dragartist]

Great Pics R4H.
TCF I thought the chap in the cupola looked like that well known Civi ALM from Boscombe with a name like that songbird that sang in some square or other.


He used to wear a black grow bag, I think he nabbed it from 8 Flt AAC with his civi captain stripes and his RAF ALM Brevet.


Smudge, Yes MFF used to take place in El Centro. In later days we operated the ACE (Air Concentration Exercise) construct with one aircraft and a couple of crews serving a number of things going on at El Centro, YPG and China Lake. we may do an airdrop onto Coral DZ at YPG in the morning, a lift for a para trial or training at El Centro in the afternoon and then go to China lake for another trial the next day. Then come back and do it all again. We could not do high altitude O2 stuff two days running. I remember doing a role change on the way up from Laguna to CL. There was an awful lot of hurry up and waiting. The swimming pool attendants (PJIs) were in their elements. I think the detachments got too big with the QinetiQ, JATE, various other units and hangers on.


Managed a couple of weekends in San Diego and trips into the desert collecting pictures of strange plants. (OK we are all different!) I still have the bits of metal wood kicking around. Not forgetting the Beaver colony at the Green Door over the Mexican boarder.


I still miss the C&W karaoke at the Sage and Sands.


I am still waiting to hear the story of this C&W Band from El Centro

[R4H]

Cupola is Mick Eth role equip. Dad directional consultant.


Desert landing trials were in Uk. DvHelmut bent ac in theatre on take off. BofI found he had done everything correctly but no factors given in ODM for sand or gravel. Initial data done at Pendine then a couple of good days on Saunton Sands. (Got pics of that as well, professional photog local paper) Couldn't find gravel strip in UK so, reluctantly, had to spend some time in Spain.

[Wander00]

Have walked often on Saunton Sands - photos are epic

[R4H]

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/CLake1/a%206_zps3ggkmssw.jpghttp://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/CLake1/a%2014_zpsqndqvzpo.jpghttp://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/CLake1/a%2015_zpscvzxev2g.jpg

[Wander00]

Mention of Saunton reminds me of a question in my mind whenever I go there - how on earth did they close off the beach to ensure no dog walkers, horse riders, people with BBQs got in the way. There are so many ways on from the land side, ,let alone boats getting to the beach

[R4H]

During our trials there was a fire cover det on the beach plus our ground party and vehicles. The beach wasn't closed and our guys just patrolled the area. If someone came over and was interested our guys escorted them and let them have a closer look. After one landing one of the guys came over with ice cream cones - slight delay before next take-off while we enjoyed them. Marked strip was 2500 feet then turning area so only approx 3000 feet used out of beach several miles long. All take-offs were from hotel end and all landings towards hotel end as that was where we had our equipment and observers.
Video somewhere on youtube.
Was near Saunton recently and had coffee in café next to beach at hotel end. Aviation postcards there had one of a 30Sqn J on the beach.

[Wander00]

There used to be (may still be) a guy runs an arty shop in Barnstaple (may even be a former Nav) who has for sale lots of photos of the Herc on Saunton Sands

[Dougie M]

Here's one from the strip on Saunton Sands from about 10 years ago. No dog walkers that day.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/363e72bf-d771-4547-8ccc-d93a3311f1f4_zpsks2h0ux7.jpg

[downsizer]

downsizer That was possibly me.


Indeed it was....

[aeroid]

Sorry to interrupt all the holiday snaps but for anyone interested 48 Sqn are having a reunion in April 2016 to celebrate their centenary. Over 100 ex members have already indicated their intention to attend. PM me and I will pass on contact details or try [email protected]

[smujsmith]

Never lacked a strip of sand, shale or gravel to land on in 90/91. Not sure if I've told the tale before, but will happily recount a memory of some serious Pilot/GE interface (as they say today) and a positive result.

An SF Det circa October 1990, during the build up to GW1, when Saddam had already done his dirty deed. Smudge and fellow GE Kev are deployed to Minhad in support of a crew from "the flight" captained by a chap known as "stingray". The det followed its usual course of MFF, infil/exfil, NVG and FARP training. As always with such detachments, for the GEs a high workload, but one that could usually be accommodated by one flying, the other meeting the aircraft on the ground on return, ensuring both GEs were available on every landing.

On the day in question, I was the "flyer" and Kev was the greeter. Off we set for a meeting with OC Hereford at a shale strip "somewhere" in the desert (as a minor player, yea, a hanger on, I had no "need to know"). Having landed, and being the ever consistent GE, I bimbled around the aircraft, as a sort of informal "turn round". I was drawn to the hissing emanating from the RH MLG bay, and, on my own initiative (I was only a Ch Tech :=) raised the MLG Door and stuck my head in. What a surprise, stereo hissing, both RH gear Mainwheels punctured, and visibly deflating. The Captain was busy talking to His Herefordshireness, so I was loathe to interrupt, but did anyway, and directed his attention to the rather flatter RH Mainwheels than the LH side.

We had spare Mainwheels back at Minhad, but for some curious reason, Lyneham Eng wing had failed to foresee our using them, and therefore had not sent out a jack, necessary to do a tyre change. We headed back to Minhad "tout de suite" sending a message ahead to Kev to prepare for a double mainwheel change. On landing, the Captain not only kept the weight off the RH side, but his fast taxy back to our parking slot, with the RH wheels clear of the ground must have raised a few eyebrows in ATC and the F16 dets we passed. We got to our "Bay" and Kev and myself got down to replacing the wheels. Kev had been to the F16 det on the next parking area and borrowed a bottle Jack that "looked OK" for doing the job, Kev was a trade based fairy GE, and to him, a jack was a jack. We gave it a try, but, as the weight of one bogey came on, the relief valve on the jack functioned and refused to lift the wheel. With nothing bigger (jack wise) available, we offered the boss (stingray) an option to re inflate the RH mains, and fly to the nearest C130 det (who would have the required ground equipment) to replace our RH mainwheels. It was accepted, we borrowed some N2 and overinflated the RH mains and flew to a USAF C130 det in Saudi, where they had all we needed. Unless you were there, you could never appreciate the quality of flying that ensured that the aircraft was "nurtured" to an eventual fix, it's an enduring memory of mine of the fast taxy with the RH wheels off the ground, serious ability.

Sorry for the long post, I hope it might jog a memory or two. Meanwhile let's have some more of your fantastic pictures R4H, serious competition for Chickenlover now I think ! Though I hope Chickenlover is holding his cards tight, and has a few more to offer.

Smudge :ok:

[R4H]

Can't take any credit for pics at Saunton or CLake. I just drove ac.
Turning final
http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/01_zpscjhjtwuu.jpg


On final
http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/02_zpsrtkpsmsk.jpg


Approach
http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/03_zpsxx492frh.jpg

[ricardian]

If you have got £150,000 to spare... (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271911321917)

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

R4H : DvHelmut bent ac in theatre on take off. BofI found he had done everything correctly but no factors given in ODM for sand or gravel.
I was the Ground Eng on that one. Never really sure if Helmut saved my life, or endangered it in the first place! I was at the Stbd para door looking for baddies and the tail strike happened right below my feet.


We were using a dried up lake bed way out west. It had a hard crusty surface, but soft sand underneath. Albert was determined to stay on the ground and we were still ploughing furrows 100m + beyond the end of the strip. Someone on "the flight" will know how far forward the SFSG bloke does his point duty beyond the end of the strip - well, we ran over his Bergen.


Shat myself.

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks R4H ... great pics again :ok:

Sorry I didn't reply earlier ... took Mrs Coff to Wimbledon yesterday (clear chit for another twelve months) ;)

Am I right in thinking that the MOD Bombing Range at Pembrey has been active since 1964, but it wasn't until around 2004/2005 that the final "spikes" in the sand, preventing aircraft landing, were removed thus allowing C-130 K & J sand trials ?

If it's OK with everyone ... it might be interesting to hear a little about how the trials were conducted ... was it simply recording V's at various loads/flap settings etc and plotting take-off distance ? Or did you have a few 'specialists' working out sand/gravel drag coefficients, pavement hardness and other such fun stuff ? Seems a lot of variables to play with ...

Best ...

Coff.

[Top Bunk Tester]

SPHLC wrote

a hard crusty surface, but soft sand underneath

Bit like the author really then :}

[Dougie M]

The beach strip at Pembrey had been well swept for pointy bang before we got there. I don't know if anybody drops 25lb smoke and flash anymore. Last time was when I was on Canberras!


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/5090ca8b-09bf-42ab-bfb0-b815f2517bf3_zps7vmqsd4t.jpg

[smujsmith]

I see you still had your posh Landrover available Dougie:rolleyes:

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Were the beach strips checked for CBR using the cone penetrometer ? (cue ribald remarks !)

[CoffmanStarter]

There you go AA62 ... You're not happy unless 'dropping' something ;)

[Dougie M]

The beach strips were prodded before we arrived. Except on one occasion when the turning circle at the end was omitted with exciting consequences. The downside was that after the sortie the aircraft had to go straight to the wash bay to get rid of all the salty sand.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/5349ad5c-b359-4e42-b04e-bf9763877336_zps7jxw7pyb.jpg

[Rwy in Sight]

Dougie M,

Any pics of the wash bay by chance?

Thanks in advance.

Rwy in Sight

[ksimboy]

Not as exciting as the strip at Chetwynd Dougie, where the same was done (strip prodded but not turning at end) . Albert duly turned and stopped abruptly as wheels dug into the pretty grassy bits . Caused a tiny bit of consternation I seem to recall, as OC Chetwynd was concerned about his gliders and the newly plugged field left after they dug Albert out.

[R4H]

Vague memory of Chetwynd problem. Didn't they end up digging holes to stop props touching ground on one side?

Dug nosewheel in myself on sand in Kuwait GW1. Turning at end a bit too tight and using too much nosewheel deflection. You could normally get out quite easily by rocking back and forwards but deflection made this a lot harder. (Not my day - had to shut one down just after rotate on departure).

Early C130 trials on sand they ended up taking main gear doors off to prevent damage. Pics of mainwheels up to hubs in the sand in book Herc, Hero of the Skies I think.

Air Traffic Control
http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/06_zpsywcisaa2.jpg


Safety team on the beach
http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/05_zpskezbt3us.jpg
One of ground party watching before gps marking touchdown point.
http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/04_zpsac0etti9.jpg

[Dick Allen]

Caused a tiny bit of consternation I seem to recall, as OC Chetwynd was concerned about his gliders and the newly plugged field left after they dug Albert out.
Not gliders, but helicopters - Chetwynd was/is used as an RLG for Shawbury.

As Staish of Shawbury at the time - 2000-2001-ish? - I guess that made me "OC Chetwynd". The concern was over who was going to pay for the "making good" - 2 Group were initially reluctant to stump up - "costs lie where they fall" or some such ....... and it was quite expensive!

Having worked for the then AOC 2 Gp - K**** F***** in a previous existence, I wrote directly to him saying " Gp should pay as I had been brought up to understand that "gentlemen always replace their own divots".

Got a handwritten response: "We will replace our divots" and the bill was duly paid! Top bloke IMHO (but I also got in trouble with my own AOC!)

[gopher01]

Running out of runway on a strip take off was not new, during our little sojurn in Rhodesia we did something similar in that we were tasked to drop off one person at a strip which had been surveyed and passed as suitable. On arrival at the strip a pass was flown to check it out and a twin piston was seen parked on a little area with the engines running but no sign of life. Calls were made on common frequencies and another pass made but no response so the captain, N--l S------t, decided we would land and so we did. As we taxied down to the turning area N--l remarked it was needing a fair bit of power to keep the frame moving at which the Loady, P---e T--S, may his memory live forever, looking out over the open ramp said seeing the size of the ruts we were making it was not suprising especially as he could see a groove where the aerials were touching the ground! N--l remarked that if the pax wanted off he could drop off the ramp as we were not stopping. So as we straightened up power was applied, the ramp and door closed and the take off run commenced without the usual sprightly acceleration expected even in Rhodesia. The ever increasing proximity of the scrub at the end of the strip was commented on by the flight deck as we progressed and I believe the eventual rotation and transition into flight took place at a rather low figure. Ground effect is a wonderful thing!
It appeared that the day before our landing there had been some heavy rain in the area which made a complete b-------s of the previous survey. The twin got out by using the edge of the strip to take off, the lack of response was due to the habit off leaving the engines running while doing other things in case they wouldn't start on the strip.
The actual point off take off was checked but was passed on as" you don't really want to know " but I gather quite a few bushes perished in the attempt!
And to Dougie, long live the Kentucky Hotel.

[Dougie M]

If the walls could only talk. Gopher, I do believe your crew is having a wet debrief in this pic. After your Rhodie ploughing exercise I think your aircraft was named Miss Gwanda in honour. Ours was Flak Alice due to ground fire but I think that Budgie B******* was the most colourful due to the multi birdstrike! even made the papers. As to the hotel, we were moved to a hut in the grounds due to the attention of the Selous Scouts. Fond memories....




http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/5cf374b6-c15d-439b-a4e2-765f31a1b3d5_zpsujzrtnh2.jpg

[R4H]

One of my biggest frights on a strip was in Somalia. Uphill slope to land then downhill for take-off with unload area and village at end of landing run. On this particular day there had been a lot of rain and strip was now very muddy with a new stream running across it near the landing point.


Landed over it, unloaded then lined up for take-off. Copilot, another Captain, and I weren't happy so taxied down to have a look. Surface had dried a bit but the stream and sea of mud beyond didn't look good if we had to abort. Quick check of numbers to allow for the slope and I took off uphill.


We had been doing strip limiting take-offs on various strips around Somalia for weeks and did just that!!! Rotate then see that the end of the strip and ground beyond is above the aircraft! Squeeze nose gently up to get somewhere towards 2/3 1/3 rule of thumb, don't even look at speed! Crawl up over the terrain.


Yes, it was in the book that a sloping strip could become an obstacle (we remembered that later), yes we were two experienced Captains. Yes an obstacle limiting take-off would have been perfect.Yes we were both instructors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dougie M]

If there was an adjacent built up area I recall that we didn't do random approaches but a spiral descent from above SA7 range. They mostly looked like this. The bustline on a Rhodie bird we had on board gradually descended to her waist but as the captain remarked, there wasn't a line left on her face.




http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/65a56081-48f4-4252-8faa-033e73302dd7_zpsill8drmm.jpg

[CAW]

http://i61.tinypic.com/zt65c5.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/2nsrpjr.jpg

Taken at MPA, sometime in the early ´90s.

Can anyone comment on those pods hanging under the wings (not the fuel ones)? could they be EW devices?

I found out that VX204 (the plane pictured) was retired and probably scrapped by 1998. Anyone got to fly it?

[Brian W May]

MAROC pods, ESM.

Also plotted positions of all surface warships (emitting) within the visible horizon . . . (weren't allowed to talk about it until we had satellite coverage).

[Bengerman]

Last flew XV204 in April 1986, captained by the dear departed George Dunn.

[Dougie M]

Last time for me was March 96 in a death defying low level with Scroggs. Last trip with him too!

[ancientaviator62]

Last time in 204 was a TX rotation in Dec 1993 to MPA via Dakar, Asi and Rio. Brought home XV 203 via Rio Asi and Banjul.

[Brian 48nav]

One of the original 12 operated by 48 Sqn (XV 198-209 inclusive) - it occupies 29 lines of my log book while on the squadron.

Most significant entry was when I was the nav' on the crew returning from Kathmandu on the day I became a father! One of the few trips where I can remember all the names - skipper Shaun Fielding, co' Mike Preston, Eng' Roger Bowdler and Loadie Tony Johnson. All of us except the captain suffered badly from 'Delhi belly' for a few days, such that the co' was hospitalised. So I had two reasons to visit Changi Hospital for the next week, Mike P and the future Jag Mate!

I never logged 204 again after Changi, so I guess it must have eventually been allocated to the OCU at Thorney Island.

[Alcazares48]

Last flew on xv204 June 14th 1988 AAR TX requal with a Captain from next door 24 Sqn.
But in March 1988 flew 39 hours out of MPA including a drop to Endurance at Anvers Island.
About the same hours on 204 in April and May (Captain who used to manage Man Utd) before back to UK.

[CoffmanStarter]

Clearly you guys have had your logbooks out this afternoon ... :ok:

How about another angle ... Would anyone care to have a reasoned stab at how many miles XV204 might have flown in service whilst in your collective good care (and NO I don't know the answer) ... Moon and back type distance or greater ?

Best ...

Coff.

[smujsmith]

AA62 #3425,

My records show a trip in 204 as ASCOT4916, departed Lyneham 31 Aug 93, returned 9 Sep 93. A 30 Squadron crew, using Rio de Janiero on the way down. I broke my nose surfacing in the hotel rooftop pool on the very low diving board. Our Hotel overlooked Copa Cabana beach, are my dates out ? Were you on that trip ? Or did they rotate 204 back to UK between Sep and return it in December ? Whatever, that's my last GE trip in 204. Conversely, my first ever trip as a GE was XV204, as ASCOT5808 (Carrying a Mk3 Callsign ?) on a five day Calagry trip 26 Aug 89 - 30 Aug 89. With a 24 Sqn Crew.

ASCOT4012 3-13 Feb 1990 was my only other trip on 204, 24 Sqn did the driving on that one, with Tr*v R**fe as Captain. It was his birthday on the day we did the ASI/MPA leg, and is probably the aircraft I took this from;

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/250d1f0db2efadd1366ae45e48dd90cc_zpsm7lrdrpo.jpg

My records also show a detachment with a 30 Sqdn crew to ASI, doing the ASI/Recife shuffle for about three weeks ASCOT 5420 1 Nov - 19 Nov 93 XV (trembling) 222. The reason being the re surfacing of ASIs runway, precluding use by the Tristar. I well remember a real gentleman, one Sqn Ldr C***s O'b***n being at ASI on a ground tour as OC Ops I believe, during our stay. An evening spent at the Officers Mess, drinking G&Ts watching UK trident missiles being tested from somewhere in the Carribean, his invite will always be a memory for me. I think most of us realised that seeing the warheads segment (MIRV) etc made us all realise we had seen everything up to the bucket of sunshine, for real. As an aside, I managed to get a few of the transient aircraft lads to accompany me to Recife as "SVC" during our time there. No cost to Aunty Betty as they shared my accommodation at no extra cost. One of the grateful Teckies was a bit of an artist, in more ways than one :eek: and presented me with this on my departure for Lyneham ;

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/8bf77bc14c97d881f118dcba2aa6b35c_zpsqz61lhby.jpg

It still hangs on the wall of my second bedroom, and always raises a chuckle when I see it. Did 30 have exclusive rights to MPA/ASI trips ? particularly when Brasil was involved ?

Coff,

204, from several posts did a few Lyneham/MPA trips in its day. As I accompanied the aircraft at least twice to MPA I reckon it felt like at least two orbits of the sun, with a "revitin" to Alpha Centauri! How's that for a stab in the dark ?

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
my log book for August 93 has a TX trip to MPA on 15th in XV303 via Porto Santo, Banjul and ASI. It does not show a return flight logged. I seem to recall there was another ALM with me so he would have operated the i/b bit if we brought another frame back.
The captain was that absolute gentleman Colin B. of ciggies fame

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Smudge :ok:

I bet the actual distance a single airframe traveled during it's service life would be staggering ... but for a total distance the entire fleet traveled over sixty years ... the mind boggles (not difficult in my case ... 'boggled mind' that is) :)

Best ...

Coff.

[ancientaviator62]

Coff,
when the first 'K' was being put up for sale some wag came up with the secondhand car dealer's description. One careful lady owner, full service history, mainly motorway miles and never raced or rallied !

[CoffmanStarter]

Good morning AA66 ...

Yes I can believe that :ok:

If only the Herc 700 had a 'mileage' page ;)

Coff.

[ExAscoteer]

C***n B****r of ciggies fame : Positive Rate of Climb, Gear UP. Safe Height and Speed, Flaps UP. Cigarette LIT.

I did a trip with C**** late summertime to Reims with a bunch of Army Staff Course guys down the back. Working London Centre we hear some Delta Airlines jet come up with an American drawl: "Say Ma'am, what are all those yellow fields down there?".

Quick as a flash C**** comes back with: "They're Chinese Golf Courses!"

[Top Bunk Tester]

Same Cigarette Capt, but we used to run the checks as Gear Up, Flaps up, Light Up. I used to be a smoker at the time but after flying with him, I never smoked on the flight deck again as it taught me consideration for others. I used to banish myself to squatting on the Ramp/Door next to the outflow valve, assuming no pax or bang on board.

[Brian 48nav]

Back in the day (67-73' ) each airframe did about 700hrs per annum, so if 204 was scrapped in '98 and entered service in '67 it did about 20,000hours.

If it had all been route flying at 320knots TAS ( Did the RAF continue to fly at 1010 TIT ? ) then that is 6,400,000 nautical miles. But of course a lot of the flying was circuit bashing and tac' low level, the latter in my day at 190kts - so perhaps reduce the above figure by a third, a figure I have snatched out of the air, so still over 4 million miles!

Perhaps someone should check my figures - the old grey cells aren't as sharp as they were 40+ years ago!

[teeteringhead]

Moon and back type distance or greater ?

Coff

Lots more at a guess - let's do some back of fag packet stuff.

Average distance to Moon is about 385 000 Km, so there and back is 770 000 Km which is about 415 000 nm.

So even with a modest overall average speed of say 250 kts (me simple rotary pilot - just guessing to get in the right ball park and make the sums easier :ok:), that's fewer than 2000 hours (1660 to be precise).

And I'll bet the frames (not to mention lots of the crews!) have many many more than that. I understand some USAF C-130 frames have done 20 000 hrs (?), which would - on similar calculations - make 5 million nm or more than 9 million Km - or a quarter of the way to Venus at its (her?) closest.

So even with my rotary average of - say - 50 kts (all that hoverin' ye know), I've just about cracked the Moon and half way back. But of course, my nose bleeds above 1500 ft! :E

Edited to add:

I bow to Brian's superior sums! But we're in the same ball park.

[R4H]

As a baby co-pilot I was checked back from Norway by Mick B**he. Taxying out he lit up. Didn't know what he was doing or whether he wanted me to say anything. On the runway he just laid it across the throttle quadrant against the condition levers and away we went!


Interestingly he had been my father-in- law's pilot on Meteor nightfighters and had been his best man. Saw him in flight planning in Gutersloh a couple of years later and just to make him feel old explained that I had just married the daughter who hadn't been born when he had been best man.


Later I was in FI when the Captain of the other crew told me that I had flown Chipmunks on a holding post with his father!!!! Also had a Co-pilot in Nellis celebrating his 21st, alive for less time than I had been flying!!!!! I let him buy the drinks.

[CoffmanStarter]

Brian, Teeter's ... Thanks for having a go chaps :ok:

I did a few assumption based calcs using a TAS of 300Kts against speculative hours utilisation per day/month/year and came up with circa 6 million nm but I was a bit out with total length of service ;)

Even at a speculative 4 million nm ... that's some travel (if only AirMiles could be claimed !)

Bit of fun ...

Best ...

Coff.

[R4H]

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/11_zpszgca0jel.jpg

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/10_zps8svdkxxe.jpg

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/r4hc130/07_zps1hbbq7rw.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

R4H ...

I'm the sad one on this Thread who loves the science behind trials like this ... :8

I'd be very interested to hear how these were conducted ... and what was expected of the Flight Deck during the trials :ok:

Cheers ...

[R4H]

Hi Coffman,
Initially we wanted to do data collection on a runway in order to prove ODM numbers but were told that that wasn't needed as HATS had done work on it plus they had collected data for grass strips. Beaches were easy. 1 or 2 guys at touchdown end with handheld GPS, watch for touchdown then go to the mark and take GPS readings. 1 guy at the stop area with GPS. When stopped he came to ac and GPS marked nosewheel position. Same at start of take-off point and rotate point. Nav backed up with onboard Mark on his kit. Met and surface conditions noted by ground party and by us on flightdeck. Gravel slight change as 2 guys for each event position, spread out at each then forward on a bearing to establish each GPS position. X / head wind component from us and ground party data. Groundspeed at touchdown from us.

Flying it was easy enough. Main point was to be very accurate on speeds and straight at touchdown and to be very consistent. Start of the take-off run had to be gradually moved forward as we dug bigger and bigger dents when powered up to full power against the brakes.
Some of the J work was done using squadron pilots in order to qualify them. This gave some inconsistencies but these were noted by the instructor and gave us a set of data deviations that could be used in the analysis. Use of both Saunton and Pendine gave more data points. Generally beach work is done as the tide starts to ebb in order to give as much time as possible before the tide was due to take the beach back. This would have meant that the sand was always wet so timings were adjusted to give differing degrees of wetness / firmness.

Trials Management Officer (brains the size of planets these guys) and I worked out a spreadsheet to help analyse the data. Hours of pouring over the ODM graphs and establishing baselines from me and geek bits from the TMO). Once complete everything was sent off to guys with brains the size of even bigger planets at Waddington to do all sorts of number crunching. (As a simple airframe driver I would have taken the largest and smallest away then divided the sum of the rest but that doesn't work for statisticians and analysts) They then worked out the factors required for each case.
Some of the J work was also done on later sorties using squadron pilots in order to qualify them. This could lead to some inconsistencies but these were noted by the instructor and gave us another spread of data.

As an aside, using a cone penetrometer could take ages on a natural surface. A fast run with a landrover without going through or sinking worked well. Another non-scientific guide was to use an old fashioned biro pen cap. Push it into the grass holding the tang end. If it didn't go in beyond the start of the tang with reasonable force you were probably good to go. No use on sand.


Another aside. Years ago the powers that be realised that the 146 was only cleared natural surface grass. In case the Queens Flight ever had to use a beach I was tasked to teach the 146 QFI beach landings in a 146. Great chance to do something different but it never went ahead. Powers that be decided it would be difficult to justify a 146 being damaged if there was a problem and we couldn't get off before the tide came in. As we shutdown on beaches for FARP/ALARP I asked why it was ok for us. Told that although 3 engine take-off wasn't allowed from natural surface they were sure that we wouldn't leave the ac on the beach - basically don't ask!

[Dougie M]

This is all very illuminating but in the time of Gulf War l when they said "We have a wizard wheeze to outflank Saddam. We'll pick up all the troops from the east of the line and fly them at low level up the pipeline road in front of all the coalition nervy, trigger happy and some downright loony outfits and land them at Hafir al Batin". "Eh?" we said. "It's a desert strip" they said. "Natural surface" ... "It's been raining for an effin' month" we said.
Well off we went to find it.
No GPS here. No ground party. No fire protection and worst of all No hard surface on the strip!
It DID dry out in February, though




http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/f550908d-305c-4fe0-8af5-5eba73dc0fd7_zpsdt4qnbj2.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks R4H ... Much appreciated :ok:

Presumably all TO's were done at full power but did you explore various flap settings and AUW during the trials ?

Fascinating ... even though my brain is quite small in comparison to your boffins ;)

Cheers ...

Coff.

[CoffmanStarter]

Dougie ... Did you get off again OK after 'delivery' or where you stuck for a while ... All sounds a bit 'hostile' :eek:

[Dougie M]

There were 600 of these boys to be moved and we sat them down in rows, leaning on their bergens. I don't know exactly how many we took per lift but the strip got a bit dodgy on landing. The boys weren't too happy about the place either, they had been rained on for days and the freight bay had this pervading smell of wet Labradors.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/ccaa5d8f-1ae4-4293-8ac8-bc4c8d6c8c8e_zpsmnyfyvcx.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Dougie ...

[Gumpied]

First flew 204 on 6 July '72 with A---- M----- and last time was 12 Dec '72 with P--- S------. Logbooks at the ready!!:)

[CoffmanStarter]

Welcome to the Thread Gumpied :ok:

All stories welcome ...

[Descend to What Height?!?]

C O B and C B both later ended up at different times in the left hand seat of Snoopy. I well remember the smoke signals from the flight deck when CB was driving. Happy days.

[ancientaviator62]

R4H,
when I was an Air Radar Fitter on 33 (Javelins) Mick B was one of the pilots. I recall one evening down route we discussed the 'JAV' and all the interesting aspects from both sides. Great bloke.

[ancientaviator62]

Dougie,
how quickly our lords and masters had forgotten what it was actually like in the Middle East in winter. Yes it does rain and can get very cold !

[ancientaviator62]

R4H,
ah the 40 mph Landrover technique. When I was at STS(or whatever it was called that week) I blagged a trip on an army Beaver to a remote place in Scotland to check out a proposed strip. We had an expert with the CBR kit to check out an new Tac landing strip. In the end he borrowed a landrover to 'validate' the cone penetrometer !

[R4H]

Hi Dougie


Concentrates the mind going into a non-marked, non-recce'd strip doesn't it, especially on goggles!!!

[Brian 48nav]

I'm still mates with A.... M..... - didn't the boy do well?
When we were first tourists, for some reason whenever we met at a party or big piss-up in the mess we always ended up throwing beer over one another - neither of us can remember why!

Top man though!

[R4H]

Hi Coffman
We started each set of trials at the maximum planned allowed weight for the strip length, 2500ft, taking into account temperature, planned headwind component etc, then AUW came down as fuel burnt off, approx. 4 - 5000 lb/hr giving a reasonable spread of weights and data points throughout each sortie. Flaps were always at 50% for take-off and 100% for landing, standard for all take-offs and landings and as scheduled by the ODM. Also, there were no VR or VAT figures for any other configuration. Take-off was at TacVR using strip limiting technique and landing was at TacVAT.

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks R4H ... All understood :ok:

[smujsmith]

Crikey Coff, respect ! You understand all of that ? I always had the impression that 19700 lbs torque would drag Albert off most surfaces it had landed on (18k being the norm). I suspect though that R4H knows a lot more than I ever will, because he flew it. Approach and departure from unmanned strips was the ultimate reason for the foreshortening of my career, due to an event during GW1, but I like to believe that all "adventures" lead to "lessons learned" and improved safety. I reckon that a lot of the beach landing input has shown that Albert was well capable of getting in and out of such "strips", and, offering a useful platform in that respect for SF for infil/exfil and re supply missions. It certainly confirms the extended expectation the RAF had for the aircraft, compared to other nations, I think ? R4H and Doug, great photographs both, did either of you ever get involved with Tac on snow (Norway for instance) ? I bet the parameters were a whole lot different, or were they ?

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/74a7370da9dc41bd141fd04b3489d116_zps9dkponql.jpg
The GE perspective !

Smudge :ok:

[chickenlover]

Smuj - was it this strip ? I can't remember the name but one of our crews had an incident here that injured a few down the back. It was an awful night on the goggs with virtually no starlight and some blowing sand. I'm surprised we didn't break more really. I think we ended up abandoning this strip as not even the unimogs and LSVs could get in to pick up stuff from the landing hercs. It was a lottery after touchdown where the ruts took you....
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/Strip.jpg

[smujsmith]

Chickenlover,

It may well have been, as I recall though the place where I did my "superman" flight was on an Island. We had been there that evening and FARP'd a couple of 7 Squadrons finest. If it helps Captain was C**** F***. Hope you are well.

Smudge :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Crikey chaps ... you could plant crops in those 'furrows' :eek:

[R4H]

Hi smujsmith


Only remember using one snow strip. Norway. The strip was raised slightly from the surrounding terrain and completely snow covered so no room for any deviation to the side. No correction figures to go on. There was nowhere to turn so after landing it was up to the Loadie on the ramp to give reversing instructions back down the whole length of the strip, stopping a few times to cool the oils.


Other snow stories:
Landed at a small airfield in Norway. Braking action was given as poor to medium. Numbers were good so landed only to find ice ice and more ice. Braking poor to really really bad or nil!!!! Offloaded and thought about take-off. Acceleration would be excellent but an abort would be a nightmare. Runway conditions really out of limits but no option but to go as aircraft would be there till the spring.


Bardufoss one winter's night. Runway was good but could only taxy in using power. After shutdown we could barely walk on the pan, just slid our way to the buildings. No problem as taxying out could be done on power until the runway. GTC wouldn't start. After lots of diagnostics phoned Group to say we were there for the night and explained conditions. Their suggestion was to get a windmill start from another Herc that was there! Giggled then asked the other crew what they thought of trying to reverse onto me using only power then going high power on the sheet ice. Held phone towards them so Group Controller could hear the calls of "F*** O** you red nosed clown" Nightstopped.


Any other examples of "advice / decisions" from our Lords and Masters?

[smujsmith]

R4H,

I'm sure that snow was at least as much of burden as sand in Albert ops. I can concur with your proposition of "ATFOC" interpretation of reality. I certainly was threatened twice with career ending consequences, when Albert decided to break some structural member etc. In both instances, my remedy was finally accepted and recovery actions were based on that. Thankfully with the support of the crew I was supporting. I think I have already posted the fluctuating pressurisation problem, diversion to Porto, and subsequent threats from a certain armpit Flt Sgt in Eng Ops at Lyneham. it seems that OC Eng at the time was "short toured" as a result of "tactics" used to encourage a crew to fly an aircraft of dubious structural integrity (and abusing the authority of the station Commander). I also remember a rudder problem at St Johns, where I found some failure in the structure that supported input to the bellcrank. A certain T** Le C***t examined the problem with me, and added his own input to my Eng Rep, we were "gob smacked" to receive a reply, from the same Flt Sgt at Lyneham, informing us that "Albert does not go U/S down route with structural problems", totally disregarding the fact that this was a flying control restriction as well as a structural problem. After leaving the Honourable Company of GE ship, I worked in Eng Ops, and I have to report that the whole shebang lived down to my expectations. If only those "sat" back in the UK could actually have listened to those, on the ground, who offered decent solutions to snags, we could have saved some money.

In that light, A4H, do you remember the delay in our return from Hong Kong all those years ago ? Bahrain on the way back, a night stop scheduled, and duly enjoyed. On start the next day, the No2 donk failed to start, and was diagnosed by myself and J**n H****s as ignition relay failure. I had a spare in my "bag" unfortunately not the same part number as the one fitted. We phoned Lyneham Ops and were told, stay there, do not use the spare you have, we will send you the correct item on tomorrow's BA flight. BA duly met, spare received and bugger me, the jobby they sent was exactly the one I had in my bag:eek: no worries, we contacted Ops and our favourite Flt Sgt said, ahh the suppliers have failed, stay where you are we will send you the correct item. We did, they didn't, and eventually we did the one start, and leg to Akronelli, with my spare fitted, and M**k L***y put the correct component on No2 donk. I seem to recall a two day delay on our return, I'm not sure if Captains got demerits for late return, but I do know that our late arrival was down to Eng Ops Lyneham.

Smudge :eek:

[billynospares]

New ignition relay, luxury . Applied percussion with hammer to said relay was my normal course of action :ok:

[smujsmith]

Billy,

Percussion was a feature of our diagnosis, but had no effect as I recall. I have to say, we are both surprised at the instructions to await a replacement, but were later told that there had been an incident involving an ignition relay problem somewhere else, and Ops and FATCOCK were a bit twitchy. Like many things, sometimes if you don't ask, you don't get stopped.

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

I recall in the early days doing a TAC landing on the Gallops in snow. The a/c just tramlined and after a few expletives from the captain we did not attempt to stop but got airborne again and went home.
When starting to taxy on icy ground it used to be SOP for the loadmaster to check that the mainwhels were actually turning and not frozen and just being dragged across the ice by the power of the Allison band.
Dropping ULLA on frozen ground was always interesting as it chased the a/c across the DZ hardly seeming to slow at all.

[Dougie M]

On another Marines det in Norway we bimbled up to Gardermoen from our temperance hotel in Oslo in a hire car with studded tyres. All seemed O.K. until we set foot on the dispersal which had thawed and refrozen overnight. We knew that it was a bit dodgy as we skated out to Albert doing a couple of toe loops and triple axels on the way. We weren't helped by a stiff breeze. An airframe icing check showed no probs so the beast was fired up. On removing the chocks Albert set off sideways in the wind like a golfball at St Andrews. The nosewheel didn't steer and only asymmetric power brought it back into wind assisted by the weathercocking of the tailfin. There followed a very gentle slide back to the dispersal 90 deg to the way we were pointing when we left and shut down. The Norgies were less than sympathetic.

[smujsmith]

Dougie, yet another absolutely on the point post re Albert in Snowland. I well remember turning up at Gardermoen at the back end of an SF Detachment, to be confronted with props encased in around 2 inches of solid, clear ice. Our Captain suggested that a start up would shed the burden, especially with the application of prop de ice, the Eng, thankfully, pointed out the potential for fuselage damage. As we had, as usual, two GEs, we attacked the offending corpulent coalescence with hammers. An hour later, and ice free, Albert fired up with no sign of detriment on the gauges. An engine running de ice was applied at the runway hold and our return to Blighty went without incident. Now, I know that two inches of ice on a prop seems a bit of a "line shoot", I only ask that you trust me, I was a GE !!!!!

Smudge :ok:

[ksimboy]

Similar event in Gander years ago Smudge, where we had freezing rain after landing, after deice and walk round by eng and driver airframe satisfied all was good to go. On starting 3 Albert begins to shake itself rather violently. Captain asks ALM what's going on , reply along the lines of " if I was allowed to call stop start I'd be doing it now! " shut down and further walk round revealed a layer of clear ice on every prop blade.

[smujsmith]

Ksimboy,

Spot on mate, the Norway jobby was just one of many similar experiences.

AA62 # 3426,

Your comments re the loadie checking the wheels in cold climates brings to mind an interesting interlude during a task to Albuquerque, with a "special load" and the safe return of its replacement. Having successfully taken the bits to Albuquerque, and set off back home, we enjoyed a night stop at Griffis AFB, and the delights of downtown Utica. Having all had an early night, we arrived, bright eyed and bushy tailed, ready to get home the following morning. I can't remember what the overnight temperature had been, only that it was minus double digits when we did the B/F, in the "no lone zone". There had been around 5 inches of snow overnight and we (the two GEs) had to sweep the lot off the upper surfaces, amongst all other aspects of prep for flight. On start all was normal, until, having stowed ourselves on board, it was found that even increased amounts of power would not allow forward movement of Albert. My fellow GE and I declared that our wallets did not exceed permitted tolerances and The aircraft was shut down. On examining the mainwheels, we discovered that they were frozen solid to the ground. It took 3 hours using a hot air blower to release the grip of the ice, and by that time the crew had run out of hours. Thankfully, the next day saw the GEs arrive at the aircraft two hours before the crew, and we managed to acquire a tug to move the aircraft off its position to ensure it would go home today !!!

Ahh, the joys of route flying with Albert:eek:

A question perhaps DougieM might be able to answer. I was always led to believe that entry to a "no lone zone" required that you be accompanied by a second person of equal knowledge. How could a Navigator, of immense cerebral capacity, be accompanied by any other crew member ? Fire away Doug, I'm sure there's some mileage in this !

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

Not strictly correct Smuj. The idea of "two man control" was originally meant for nuclear custodians. Then it dumbed down a bit to secure area entry and finally emerged as being "two persons with the same knowledge of the purpose of their mission". So it could mean two GEs BFing an aircraft. But you are quite correct in stating that few could understand the complexities of a flight mission as well as the Navigator. I'm glad that I don't have to bear that burden today. My round, I think.

[smujsmith]

Doug,

How right you are. My experience of "No lone zones" does not come from working on Albert, but as SNCO i/c VASS at Machrihanish in the early 80s. Our most important function was to carry out "loadex's" on both Nimrod and P3 MPA aircraft with "shapes" furnished from our NATO stocked ammunition storage area. In those days, if an Airframe tradesman entered the NLZ to replace a torch battery in the co pilots torch, the criteria for his escort was that he was a similarly qualified Airframe tradesman, albeit that the batteries and torch were the purview of the electrical trade group. I know from experience that on one occasion, a security policeman refused entry to the NLZ to a fellow "Snowdrop and Brain on a leash" because he had no accompanying "qualified" escort. Imagine his surprise then, having co opted the assistance of a fellow "Snowdrop" he was still denied entry because there was no associated escort for the dog !!!!! The lads with the white hats took their job seriously, and perhaps we should respect that. Maybe that explains my thinking on no lone zones, and my experience on Albert later, where, I always needed my fellow AGE to accompany me in, but the Nav could get away with a Co pilot ! :eek: interesting how it all changed.

As a follow on, I had the pleasure to serve a couple of years at Colerne, (my introduction to Albert in 1971) in my formative years. In the 12 man room I paid to enjoy, I encountered a Jnr Tech Humphries, known to all and sundry as "Black Humph". Now, no ethnic aspersions here, he worked in the tyre bay and usually turned up in the accommodation in the evening covered in crap from changing tyres every day. He was a man of Somerset, and could learn you all a thing or two about drinking cider. No other liquid refreshment was a substitute for Black Humph. Move forward 2 years, I arrived at Akronelli by VC10, and was met by none other than Black Humph. As I recall it was the Thursday schedule, he told me that I was not needed until the following Monday, and he had been delegated to welcome me ! The Square, pops soup kitchen etc etc followed, after being allocated, by Jnr Technician Humphries, accommodation in the substandard part of the base. Waking up somewhere in the square on Sunday morning, around 0400 local, skint and "non compus mentis". I got back, I turned up for work on Monday morning, and was duly threatened with a charge for failure to report for duty (Kilwhang may, or probably won't, remember) and I never forgot my introduction to an overseas tour. Now, my new best pal, Humph, didn't look like a a bloke with a great future to me, but then, I've never been that good a judge of character. Last I heard of him, he had left the RAF, married his bank managers wife (on her divorce) and become "something in the city ? ". Good luck to him. Nothing though could ever excel my next experience of flying on Albert, a story that may be too powerful for these columns. I apologise sincerely for my hogging these pages, it's just that every post by you blokes prompts a memory to me.

Smudge:ok:

[1066]

Belize schedule, Mk3, home bound. Night stop Dulles, springtime because all the cherry blossom was out. Wake up to find over a foot of v heavy wet snow had fallen. Out at Dulles, Page, the handling agents, found our Herc looking like a Hastings with its nose in the air, sitting on the ramp hinge. Clearly the weight of wet snow on the tailplane had not been considered when the "stretch" had been carried out.
So the helpful chaps at Page got a cherry picker and brooms and set to brushing the snow off the tailplane so that when us boys in blue turned up Albert would be back to normal on an even keel!
In the words of the song, now we come to the tragic bit.
Unfortunately the cherry picker was positioned half an inch too close to Albert so that when the amount of snow was no longer sufficient to keep the tail down Albert pitched forward and the elevator trim tab contacted the cherry picker.
Return downtown to await a replacement trim tab!
1066

[R4H]

Had a couple of encounters.
Out of St Johns Newfoundland at night - not forecast. Ac stopped climbing and started descending (at climb power!) Windscreens completely iced. Guess wing profile completely changed plus weight of ice. All systems on then just sit and wait, 12000ft down to 5000ft!
In Gander, left hotel for airport as it started to rain. We got there, 2nd cab went off the road, 3rd cab couldn't get out up the hotel car park slope!
Route checking a Captain out of Gander. Rain ice forecast in the area. After first encounter decided not to go. Called Lords and Masters at Group. They couldn't understand the danger. Said I would get off and Captain could talk to his own Sqn Auth as he was a D Cat. Group said that would be ok and he could probably be told to go! I said ok but I would tell ATC to hold him while I E Catted him if he tried to go. Group backed down and agreed to a 16 hour delay.

[1066]

R4H
The Redcoat Britannia out of Boston wasn't so lucky. They iced up at around 2000 ft on departure and didn't make it.
Nasty stuff clear ice or rain ice or whatever it's called this year.
Took 2 hours flying south into warmer air to regain a 20 knot IAS loss, due to clear ice, on a Hastings!
1066

[Dougie M]

There were some days when the weather got between route prep and crew met brief.






http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/b63fe840-1e53-4b5b-a574-4bff3446ec25_zpsi715zonf.jpg

[Dougie M]

"Hoe Frost" made some starts a bit crispy.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/d5ec685f-046d-4b81-865c-826a277f5260_zps8llqejvv.jpg

[ksimboy]

Pic taken after the "drivers airframe and directional consultant" finished all the coffee and doughnuts to join the semi frozen Loadie who had been at the aircraft for 4 hours already?:p

[wub]

Smuj: I had a very similar arrival on my posting to Cyprus. I arrived on a Sunday evening and was bussed to the accommodation in the substandard part of the base. I was posted to Troodos so my stay was always going to be short. From the other side of a partition I heard the dulcet tones of my best mate from school, who was on 201 in Malta. After exchanging the customary insults, I was invited to join the 201 boys on a trip downtown. Much beer and kebab later I found myself assisting a couple of these guys to remove the TPMH sign to be taken back to Malta as plunder. (Who takes a socket set on a night on the razz anyway?)

So I'd only been on the island about six hours and I was already an accessory to a crime...

Anyway, as this is a C130 thread I'd better conclude the tale with the fact that my final posting in the RAF was at Lyneham where, in my four years there, I had made many friends on 30 Sqn. As a result of my knowledge of Cyprus, I was invited, as my swan song, to accompany a 30 Sqn crew out to Akrotiri on what, for them, was an unusual trip.

The task was in support of Victors from Marham and involved picking up kit and crew at Marham and out to Akrotiri, where, on arrival, the 30 Sqn crew had four days off! To earn my trip I was to act as local guide. The aircraft was XV179, pictured above. On our first full day I joined the crew again as they took station personnel local area flying, including a low-level run down the coast to Larnaca and back. A full kebab in the Swan followed that evening and next day we hired a VW microbus from a WO on the base and I set about showing the guys as many dives as I could remember from my tour. We managed to get as far as Nicosia. Back in Limassol they were introduced to the nefarious ways of the whisky dollies, which caused a bit of a ruckus later that night.

At the end of the adventure it was back via Marham to Lyneham where about two months later I stepped out of the main gate as a civilian. Happy days.

[smujsmith]

wub, only 6 hours. My arrival tour lasted four days, and a very large ear bending, I do believe the Keo hangover lasted rather longer.:ok:

ksimboy, have you forgotten your were kept company by the Eng and AGE :rolleyes:

Keep the wintery pics coming in gentlemen, does anyone remember the article in Air Clues re the Albert landing at Gander ISTR with around 2 tons of snow on the radome, perhaps it's been mentioned before, but someone might have a back copy they can scan.

Smudge :ok:

[ksimboy]

Smudge, on route trips you would have been there, I was thinking along the lines of the midwinter TAC sorties, where the only company the Loadie had was 47 AD along with all their string, elastic and shouting . Happy days indeed. :ok:

[Dougie M]

Ksimboy.
It was heartbreaking some mornings to arrive at the Met Office for an airdrop sortie when the snow had covered the parking bay lines. You knew that the Loadie had been there since 2 a.m. supervising the loading and preparation of the split stick, Auto Gravity Extraction, 1 ton load.
The back of the aircraft resembled a Victorian cotton mill with festoons of lines and various breaking strain ties all dispensed from a loom of different coloured string. Both bomb racks were loaded with extractors and barriers separated the boxes. The army despatchers were like a swarm of ants all over the load, measuring, tying, cutting and lots of shouting as you rightly say.
The Met man raised his eyes from his chart and intoned, " When the snow stops, the temp will rise at dawn and Salisbury Plain will be fogged out".
We asked Eng Ops if we can keep the load on till the fog clears and go direct to the DZ.
No they said "Conversion needs it for MCT this afternoon and they need flat floor"


So the poor old Loadie was told on the radio " Task canx, pack it all up and unload the aircraft, and have a cup of tea cos we're not coming out."
I don't know how they kept their sense of humour.






http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/bfbc22b5-b694-4237-96a1-73ec50ee1478_zpshrscqfmy.jpg

v

[ksimboy]

Dougie,
sense of humour was maintained by the fact tht as well as freezing our cojones off, we had just had an L13 for brekkie, and removed the chocolate bars from the rest of the crews AH boxes:}

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
I think the tale of the iced up radome 'K' is in a previous post. Captain I think was Ray E. of 30.

[ancientaviator62]

On the subject of extreme WX and the 'all assistance short of actual help' from Group we were at NAS New Orleans for a nightstop. Almighty storm overnight and we got to base ops to find the airfield shut due to extensive flooding. Captain got the usual grief from Group so he faxed them a copy of the Notam which had all the details and we went back to the hotel.

[ancientaviator62]

Dougie,
alas my logbook does not record the number of trips cx after loading the airdrop. But over the length of my career it would have filled a good few pages especially when I was an airdrop instructor.Some of those who know me may suggest I did not have much of a sense of humour to lose !

[smujsmith]

Gentlemen,

I apologise for my late arrival on the scene, but I have spent the past few hours crying my eyes out at the hardships endured by Loadmasters, prepping and subsequently de prepping drop loads. I can't imagine how they suffered, and can only equate my 14 hour, overnight, prop change (at an average -22 degrees fahrengrade) at Gander as a minor blip on the radar compared to their sufferage:= As AA62 says, perhaps sense of humour was not an attribute often associated with Loadies, with the exception of the most honourable P*** T**** :eek:

With respect, and even though Dougie and the two winged master race seemed to have an easy life, did anyone really expect that the pilots and Nav of an aircraft scheduled to depart St John for Lyneham (flagging somewhere in between for a fuel uplift) to help de snow and ice the frame ? I could always forgive the Loady for burning my breakfast, I could never forgive a steering or directional failure for my demise in the North Atlantic !

Off on an inspection tour of some "water of life" producers in a couple of days chaps, with Sturgeon in charge I'm not sure if my expired "British" passport will be acceptable for entry to the kingdom. Back in a couple of weeks, keep it going, more pictures please, if Upper England has WiFi I hope to remain cognisant of your continuing posts.

Best to all

Smudge:ok:

[WIDN62]

We arrived at the aircraft just before dawn on a winter's morning at Davis-Monthan in Arizona to find it covered in a heavy frost. A polite request at Base Ops about the availability of de-icing equipment was met with a "No Sir, just do what everybody else does and wait for the sun to do its business". Cue a 3 hour delay because the fun detectors always want you getting airborne at stupid o'clock.

[smujsmith]

WIDN62,

You are so correct. On several occasions during my few years as an AGE, I have managed to arrive "on base" in the states at OFFS, and completed the B/F, then, usually in the company of the Air Eng and Loady, spending up to 5 hours awaiting the arrival of the "front end". Only to be told that despite our scheduled departure time being 0500L, first take off permitted on that base was 0700L. Once being told that our departure was cancelled, as no flying was allowed from there on Sunday. I bet there are many who have experienced the discrepancy between ATFOC planning and reality. Never mind, it all added to life on Albert.

Smudge:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
'twas not unusual for ATFOC to schedule a departure before or at the exact moment of the airfield promulgated opening times. More often or not you either could not gain access to the airfield before scheduled opening or even if you could the transport, planning, met etc would not be available.
Just another fact of life on the 'K'.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

You are so right on that sir, I always wondered at the fool who decided on an 0500L departure from LYN. Especially when I had only arrived back from Gander at 2200L the night before. I well remember joining the Loadie and Eng at a very early time in the oncoming day on bay 29, outbound to Belize via a N/S Gander. Both were full of beans and explained that they were looking forward to their first "states" trip for a couple of months. Once all was stowed, and awaiting the arrival of Cox and synchro pair, they asked me what I had been up to, well said I, I'm on my way back to Gander, which I left yesterday, and have already ordered my stretchy soup and triple chilli marguerite from Pizza delight. Imagine their surprise when Vera (remember her ?), said hello and asked if we had broken down as I wasn't in last night, was I fixing the aircraft ? On telling her I had been home, and come back, she asked "why bother ?".

I was led to believe that during my time as a GE there were 30 operating GEs on the section. Across the Squadrons there were supposedly 120 "constituted" crews. That gave us a ratio of 4:1 on route flying, in some respect due to the fact that we only usually got involved in Routes, or detachments. Sadly, I only managed 6 years before "injuries" forced me to return to "normal" duties. I did clock over 5000 flying hours in that time. mostly by Albert supported hammock, but some indication of my travels. I'm still concerned that loadmasters were so badly treated on cold mornings, but Loadies were definitely my best mates on any trip:eek: I understand that subsequent to my departure in 1997, AGEs were awarded Flying Pay, no less, now that would have made me a very wealthy chap. Any ex GEs know about that ? See you all soon, a few days away beckons.

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

While you're up there Smuj....


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/7848daff-0a15-4afe-8fea-1ace0e9c2bd7_zpsvi3ugeym.jpg

[smujsmith]

Ahh Doug,

You're a very naughty boy !!!!!!! My last three was 853, not 007.

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

Whilst on a night DZ at Cromlix Farm in Scotland, I was marking the impact point with Cyalume light sticks when my oppo, one L** P***** , remarked in a quavering voice that the piles of light sticks were attracting animals. He always spoke in a quavering voice but in the dark it was spooky.
"Don't be daft" I replied. "The cyalume markers are Infra Red. They can't see them" I looked around and saw the dark shapes of animals slowly approaching the DZ as if in a trance. Soon we were surrounded by a niffy flock of sheep all gazing at the piles of light sticks.
"They must have IR vision" he said
"Not for long" I replied, "There will be a 1 ton box arrive in the middle of this lot in 10 mins!"
If the farmer had seen us just then, chasing sheep over the tufty grass hillside he might have reached the wrong conclusion. As if on cue a landrover left the farm and approached.
"Hey, youse guys, Your drop is cancelled" shouted a voice in the dark.
"OK" we said. "We best pick up the cyalumes"
"Have you got the goggs L**?"
"I thought you had them.....We can always catch a sheep" he said
The markers may still be there.


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/f6ea8d08-6ea8-4a92-90e9-4574aaa491cc_zpstvzrjgj3.jpg

[Bengerman]

Wow! Welsh porn!

[smujsmith]

Bengerman, only if Doug was wearing wellies when he took the photograph :eek:

Smashing story Doug !


Smudge :ok:

[ExAscoteer]

smudge,
I think the tale of the iced up radome 'K' is in a previous post. Captain I think was Ray E. of 30.

The Captain was, indeed, Uncle Fester.

My 'Iced up Albert' tale derives from Minsk in Belarus - specifically Minsk 2.

Albert had picked up the Conventional Forces Europe / Open Skies Treaty flights from the Andover force after the latter had had some sort of 'diplomatic incident'.

Cue us arriving at Albert the morning after the night before to find the airframe completely iced up. The OAT was well below zero although I think the rather large quantities of Столи́чная (Stolichnaya) that we'd consumed courtesy of our Hosts went a long way to keeping us ice free!

The Eng requested a de-ice and (I am quite sure) expected a liquid spray as found in other cold parts of the world, but no....

Along comes an old Ural truck with an extending gantry on the load bed. At the end of the gantry is a wild eyed Belorussian looking like something out of 'Mad Max' sitting next to a jet engine that rather looked like it was one of Frank Whittle's originals. He then used said jet engine exhaust to de-ice albert.

It didn't half shake the aircraft!

[bingofuel]

I have a vague memory that in the 1960's the RAF tried a similar technique to de-ice runways, and mounted an old jet turbine on the back of a truck angled slightly down and drove along hopefully melting the snow and ice from the runway and blowing it away.
Can anyone shed any further light on this?

[Lyneham Lad]

I have a vague memory that in the 1960's the RAF tried a similar technique to de-ice runways, and mounted an old jet turbine on the back of a truck angled slightly down and drove along hopefully melting the snow and ice from the runway and blowing it away.
Can anyone shed any further light on this?

Really? Gosh, fancy that... :eek:

I know, I know - hat, coat, door.

[CoffmanStarter]

Bingo ... That would be the MRD

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v170/KMCLEAN/RAFMRD2.jpg

Image Credit : Unknown

More here ...

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/401005-snow-clearance.html