Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules

[ksimboy]

It was also 206 that had a rather heavy landing in Sarajevo when Da*e Hu***ll porked up the approach. Poor old Albert !

[smujsmith]

Ksimboy,

With respect to all who have damaged 206, it never really had the class of 205, which somehow always had my complete confidence as a frame to go anywhere in. Now, that's a mere pond life opinion. What about those who flew the fleet regularly, any faves in there, who enjoyed taking 222 (trembling two) down route ? Must be a few "preferred" frames from years gone by, and stories to substantiate the claims.

Smudge :ok:

[ksimboy]

I always liked going to the States in 222. You knew there was no way in the world would you get home on time lol.

[Brian 48nav]

Good idea! But in my case, having left the mob after just over 6 years on the Herc' in late '73 I guess it was too early for individual airframes to have developed their own idiosyncrasies.

But under special memories:-

202, Dec' 67 - one of the crew that took it to Changi - now at Cosford.
205, Jan 29 1968 - first time I was let loose on my own to find somewhere away
from base, Labuan. Not too difficult to find Borneo!
201 Feb 29 - off to Oz, Edinburgh near Adelaide via Darwin and return via Perth
night and day Astro for real and I remembered things were different once
in the southern hemisphere.
199 May 23 '68 - a Westabout!
206 Jan 69 - we picked up a Kiwi soldier who had been wounded in Vietnam and
took him home.
204 April 22nd, the day I became a dad - returning from Kathmandu with the
great Shaun Fielding ( sadly RIP last month ).

Worst memory:-

290 9/11/71 Seeing the red flash as 216 hit the sea off Pisa!

[smujsmith]

See what you are saying Brian, my question really was whether a particular airframe was favoured by our many posters. I know that for me, 200 had to be the aircraft that my service seemed to follow. I was a member of a team that did a Base 3 (Major) on the beast circa 1972. A lift to Aldergrove, and operation "Motorman" followed. And it was the prime SF airframe that I supported throughout my time as an AGE up to my leaving in 95. I believe it visited me once again when Blue team AES (I was the team manager at the time) completed a Minor servicing shortly before I was declared "medically unwelcome" and became promoted to Mister. So, for me XV200 holds special memories. Now, I bet there's some drivers airframe that can tell us about the fleet banana's that they would rather not have taken away from Lyneham.

Smudge :ok:

[Top Bunk Tester]

Does this remind anyone of a crew meal following an infamous Ascot Shuffle in insert country of your choice

http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad168/Gadget_Meister/image_zpsikmreyjp.jpeg

[ancientaviator62]

TBT,
great pic. That is definitely aa62 on the far right !

[Dougie M]

Great pic TBT.
A variation on a theme occurred on the floating restaurant in Aberdeen harbour Hong Kong. A rather gobby flight commander was on the crew and he commanded that we all order one dish each from the menu and that all should be recognisable to the British palate. Then we would have a spoonful of each. We all dutifully gave our choices to the waitress. Several San Migs later the vast repast arrived. It was going well till one dish was placed before the flt. cdr. It resembled ladies parts in brown Windsor soup. Which one of you b**stds ordered this he shrieked. It wasn't me we all said. I distinctly said that all the dishes should be recognisable. he hissed.
At that point a Chinese businessman at the next table burst out laughing, showing lots of gold teeth.
It was me! he said. I hear your boss man give orders so I ask the waitress to bring fish lips in duck sauce for a joke. He did buy a round of San Migs for us but curiously the fish lips remained uneaten.




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[ancientaviator62]

Dougie,
that pic brings back memories albeit very hazy ones ! I can remember drinking the San Migs but as for eating ? I suppose we must have done !

[Brian W May]

Top Bunk Tester

Captured perfectly. It got so much easier when I flew civvy and had a three-man flightdeck (well two and a junior . . . ) only because the argument didn't take as long.

Happy days . . .

[Wander00]

Post 3756 reminds me of a TV advert for the Access card - Richard Attenborough and friends in an Indian restaurant trying to apportion the bill - strap line - "Now who had rice?"

[smujsmith]

TBT #3756,

How accurate a picture you present. One thing for sure Ksimboy would never have been around that table, they are discussing spending money on food, "on the ground" :eek:

Meanwhile, a request from my good friend and former GE T****r Tho***on. Doug, can you remember the free food in our hotel in Malaysia on our way to Australia all those years ago. He has convinced my SWMBO that she may have had more gold to dangle, had I not been distracted by the celebration of the first anniversary of the hotels opening. He is convinced that it was a real "route steal"!!!!

Smudge:ok:

[ksimboy]

Wasn't the phrase "eating's cheating" popular at some time? Thank goodness for free buffets at various happy hours around the globe.

[Bengerman]

I also recognise the term "non essential solids".

[Dougie M]

Twas on our way back from Oz with an unusual crew of 1 Captain and 3 Co's. Despite advice from the Nav the Captain elected to fly through a Cb on final approach to Kuala Lumpur and demonstrated to the Co's the uneven combat between Albert and microburst heavy rain and turbulence. At the hotel a very stiff drink was required. Some of the crew decided to go sight seeing and souvenir hunting. One even obtained a "rocket polish" I believe.
The rest advanced on the bar for pre drinks and a debrief. I recall Mr. Bean on the telly in the bar and thought "how apposite". On emerging to go for a serious drink we were astonished to find the hotel staff as a "Lining Party" in full Malaysian costume applauding us and guiding us to the "Anniversary Reception".All cocktails and "hors d'oevres" free.
Well you just HAD to. We found a corner table out of direct line of sight and a waitress approached to take our orders. Red wine we said, and to save your pretty little feet could you just leave the bottle and some of its friends. Annie, the waitress thought this was hilarious and each time she came by it was to leave another half dozen bottles. "Are you eating?" she asked. "None of those egg rolls and stuff but the chicken legs, crispy duck and sliced beef would be nice. Er, just leave the tray." Three hours later, when the tourists came back, we were quite replete at no cost to the kitty.

[smujsmith]

Sounds familiar indeed Dougie, just as recounted by one T***er Th*****n, ex GE of this parish. Apparently, he talked me in to avoiding the shopping and staying with the freeloading party animals, led by yourself.

Smudge :ok:

[smujsmith]

Had the great pleasure of joining our mate Chickenlover on my first flight in 16 years, I honestly hadn't realised how the green machine had stoofed up a once major airfield.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/6ab620c1c1729c82c16050a9173829e9_zpsxhqxziyp.jpg

There's really something wrong with no Alberts on that pan !! The solar crap also is a "hazard to airmen"!

Smudge

[Dougie M]

Now that MOD Lyneham is to be completely "squaddified", the other Services having refused to move from their more modern comfortable bases. It transpires that the old Officers Mess will become the R.E.M.E. museum. No.1 son (ex R.E.M.E.) said "I'll show you round". Reply to son includes strong language. The fun will start when they start excavating the trials track for the tanks because as any fule kno the water table is a spit's depth below the surface.

[Dougie M]

Getting back to "Kitty Rules" we landed in Split to recover a body. Not a front line casualty but a reservist cook who died from a heart attack. The parade was the following morning so the crew was sent off down town to a pre glasnost flea pit called the Hotel Marjan. Matching brown wallpaper, curtains, towels and tapwater boded ill. It was then we discovered that the Croatian Kuna that very day had gone from lots per pound to eight.
Our redoubtable first officer stated that the best deal would be to pay everything from the imprest and sort it out later. The imprest then became the defacto kitty. We had a diminutive, irritating, bolshie, Scottish Loadie with us who said that he was entitled to a full dinner if he was on actuals. At a dockside café where the slight tang of untreated sewage wafted on the sea breeze, the rest of the crew nibbled on bread sticks while he ploughed his way triumphantly through his entitlement.
A very pleasant evening was then spent drinking pivo and plum brandy in a bar that once was Diocletian's palace whilst admiring the impossibly beautiful young Croatian women, all of whom chain smoked. Well the Bosnian War was not long over.
The next morning the hotel breakfast was a runny fried egg with a snotty white and a skin graft slice of "ham". More dried bread was the only alternative. Just before transport the Loadie arrived blending tastefully with the parchment décor. "Ah've been up aw night boakin' ma ring" he announced.
It would take a heart of stone not to smile at the sense of irony.
The kitty does not pay for food

[smujsmith]

Ha ha, spot on young Doug:ouch:

However, there were times when eating on the ground (EOG) was mandatory ! I think I posted the Northolt night stop, where the "chateaubriand" for two and the half lobster was greatly enjoyed, and presented the bean counters with a large, but legal, bill which could have been made much cheaper with a rate one, and our choice to drink rather than chew it. I would also refer you to the almost traditional crew kebab, on the way back from points east, when Akronelli was the last night stop. Ahh, such memories, I wonder if they still feature on the J fleet ?

Smudge :ok:

[Vasco Sodcat]

It seems that the Lloyds Bank car park has a new resident, and Bays 5-8 are not as accessible as before. I wonder how long it will be before visitors to the REME Museum start regaling the volunteers with stories of all the fun and games that went on under its roof? Who remembers that era in the mid-80s when the fun detectors shut the bar on Friday night between 7 and 7.30, and no grow-bags after 7.30 so the solution was an excellent follow-on party in the scruff's bar. Some very happy memories from those nights, and stories that need careful consideration before they are repeated!

[OldNavigator]

Seem to remember post Happy Hour in late 80's, early 90's was off to the Trotting Horse for more quiet entertainment.
Also remember a Friday night with a co-pilot driving along the bund road on the grassy side of the bund to drinks at LXX & 47 - on return to O Mess took the direct route via football fields depositing the car in O Mess car park shrouded by the goal nets - seem to remember that it took some explanation the next day to keep out of the dwang.

[smujsmith]

Crikey old nav, what do you expect with a co pilot driving ?

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

After a particularly spectacular beer call on "Love and kisses" the boss (who was tall, dark haired and you never entrusted with the kitty) ordered us all back to the scruffs bar on foot across said fields to round off the evening. Himself being PMC at the time, there would obviously be no murmur of dissent from mess. It transpired that a young sergeant who had departed earlier from the crew room to "escort" an airperson of the WRAF persuasion back to Dakota block had succumbed to her charms at about the 22metre line on the rugby pitch. The horde of squadron members nearly trampled over the couple in the stygian darkness, the only light showing being over the main door of the O.M. "Sorry sir" mumbled the partially clad young man. "Carry on!" yodelled the boss as the mass trudged on, offering words of encouragement and comments on prowess. Why we never got a crew bus there, I'll never know.

[kilwhang]

You see, Smudge, what to us would be 'as black as a witch's t-t' is, in Officer-speak 'stygian darkness'.

Which just goes to prove that, in the early '70s, while you and I were dripping honest sweat in the Hydraulic Bay at Akrotiri, Dougie M was reading books - without pictures.

:)

[ksimboy]

I recall seeing one of Dougies books once. 3 of the pages weren't coloured in!!!!

[Ken Scott]

Smujsmith: rest assured that the traditional crew kebab at Chris's or Polis is still a feature of a visit to Akrotiri. With a permanent C130 presence there on Op Shader it can get a little 'samey' for the crews so a kebab is kept as a rare 'treat' but for those in transit it's still somewhat 'de rigeur' especially if one's late arrival elicits a F95 to cover the expense. Not that much has changed, still Kokanelli delivered in plastic bottles, full or half kebab, all the salad you can eat, about the only thing that's changed over the decades is that it's priced in Euros now. The same twice round the clock knackered Mercedes taxis to whisk you to & from the block.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Funny how everyone has their 'own' kebab house. When posted to AKI in the early 80s my first night kebab intro was at Sylvanas, when it used to be half way down the strip, I think I went to the Swan a couple of times and have only eaten in Chris's and Polis once or twice. Same when I became aircrew. I must say though that as the years passed Greg and Georgina, who are still running the place, have become good friends so would feel disloyal to go elswhere. I have to admit to being Kebab Critical now though as I haven't had one for five years now, probably my longest stretch. :{

[Don Coyote]

I remember the owner of Polis being really pleased one evening during the start of Op Granby. He had not long been open at that stage and figured it would have taken about a year to purchase a decent fridge, the increase in business, from Herc crews slipping, meant he managed it in the first month!

[Dougie M]

Having met Chris when he was a barman at the O.M. in Akrotiri I was well used to his sense of humour. He once claimed that another staff member "Crazy George" was dead. "Nasty accident, never see again."
On going through to the dining room there was George. "Chris said you were dead" I said. "Is lie" he replied "But I make you one good pair of shoes then I kill myself"
When Chris opened his kebab shop the crews could have a meal together and food fights sometimes broke out between crews after the first ten bottles of kokkinelli. "More yoghurt" we asked, and Chris appeared from behind the bar.
"Do you want the eating yoghurt or the throwing yoghurt" he said.


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[ExAscoteer]

Oh Gods that brings back memories.

Kokkinbloodyawful and flaming Filfars...

[Alison Conway]

Dougie, do you remember the 52 seater coach that Chris bought from MT when they had finished with it (and for them to be finished with it things must be bad). He would roll up to the O's Mess and everyone would look at it and think "I'm not getting on THAT!" But it was FREE, and so we got on and were transported to his kebab house to become tired and emotional (and very p***ed). He would then drive us all back to the messes and we wouldn't give it a second thought, just climbed aboard that rattletrap. Ah!.... the days!

[smujsmith]

Nice memories of "local" kebab houses in recent posts, but in mine, and kilwhangs day, we had the delights of St Andrews street in Limmasol where lurked the delights of Halils Kebab house and Village wines, where sampling was a must while the wife went shopping.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/65a22bb75e70591830c3b9d86ec43a6d_zpsutyegnp3.jpg

Myself and my new wife at Halils 1974, our first kebab as a married couple. Ahh sorry chaps, but Halils was a great place to eat.

Smudge :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Smudge ... Film Star material (both) there old chap ;)

[smujsmith]

Crikey Coff, best you try specsavers:eek:

Smudge :ok:

[taxydual]

Myself and my new wife, Halils 1974, our first kebab as a married couple. Ahh sorry chaps, but Halils was a great place to eat.


Sorry Smudge, for a moment I though your wife was called Halils.


Note to self. Read PPRuNE posts twice, when inbibing red wine, to minimise misunderstanding.

[smujsmith]

Thanks for that sir, I almost wish she was. I have amended the offending bastardisation of our language so as to clarify my meaning. Thank you muchly (as they say in Brum) for pointing out my slack abuse of our language.

Smudge :ok:

[taxydual]

Oh Smudge, our sixty year old minds...................... Thank God we can still think that way.

Best Regards

:O

[smujsmith]

Heh heh,

So true TD, now, if you get in the White Bear in Masham, have one on me and send me the bill :ok:

Best to you too


Smudge

Back to the banter lads.

[Dougie M]

Great pic Smudge. Very couth for a kebab house. Halil's still exists in Kyrenia but the old boy has since gone. One of his sons runs it. Likewise Niazi's is still in evidence.
AC. After the compulsory consumption of a few pitchers of pre kebab brandy sours fear was not an option. Great days.

[smujsmith]

Thanks for that Doug, he must have moved after the coup and invasion. I well remember St Andrews Street in Limassol being described as "Turkey town" back in the day. Village wines was a cellar below a brothel at the top end of St Andrews street (ISTR kilwhang may have introduced me though it could have been our Cpl Dave Jones, who was a bit of an expert) run by a Swiss ex patriot called Paul. Huge barrels of wine, mixed from various villages, could be blended by the demijohn at "very reasonable prices". £C5 for a demijohn of village made brandy was a real bonus. For a J/T on a few quid a week, a bargain. Akronelli really changed after that and most of my night stops enjoyed our kebabs just off base, rather than down town Limassol. We did experience an exception to that though of course. The wig has been retired.

Smudge :ok:

[ExAscoteer]

Dear gods WAS Smudge EVER that young?

He certainly bloody wasn't when he flew with me!

[smujsmith]

ExAscoteer,

You have the advantage on me there, I agree, I doubt that using that photograph anyone would recognise me now.

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
But I did recognise your Air Cadet daughter as your offspring all those years ago.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

True, poor girl to be saddled with such looks.

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

Smuj I am sure that in all other ways she takes after your missus.
I couldn't let the kebab thread go without recalling a det I was on, dropping para on Ladies Mile. On the final day both Loadmasters partook of a lengthy "sesh" in the Sgts Mess. Come dinnertime they were convivial in the extreme. In Sylvana's we stashed the smaller of the two in the corner. Sadly he spotted a mate from the Wessex Sqn and stated that he wanted to talk to him. "Not a good idea" we said. Whereupon he climbed up on the table and unsteadily walked through the food to the end and jumped off. The Wg Cdr with us remonstrated with him for the mayhem he had caused. The Loadie drew himself up to his full height, ankle deep in feta cheese and salad and said "I have to inform you that rank does not impress me when I'm pi$$ed, Fat-so!" and departed. Much suppressed snorting of hilarity ensued under the baleful stare of said Wg Cdr.
The following morning the sorry remains of the Loadie were heard outside block 101 declaring to the Wg Cdr that he couldn't remember anything since leaving the Mess the previous lunchtime. Don't know what his next ACR read like.




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[SPIT]

Hi
I have just finished (again) a book entitled Herc Hero of the Skies. If you can get a copy anywhere I would strongly recommend it, it is a great book and very informative to anyone who likes the Herk.:ok::ok::ok:

[smujsmith]

SPIT,

Welcome indeed, the book you refer to resides in my small library along with a few tomes from one Andy Muniandy. Recent additions include Ewan Southby-Tailyours tale of SF exploits in 1982. What many fail to realise is that very often, the first aircraft into the shooting war these days will often be the likes of Albert, C17 or other platform allowing our SF troops to access the battleground. I expect most of the regular posters on this thread already have the books I mentioned ,

On the subject of eating on the ground;

Yesterday I was lucky enough to attend the top table, dining out of WO Jim Hunter (The old Devere Hotel) retiring as SAGE and well attended as can be seen ;

Photograph deleted by request of Clunk60, who believes it may compromise ? Well, everything really !!

There were 222 attendees, most ex Ground Engineers but many aircrew who I had had the pleasure of "down routing" with. I'm sure some of our fellow posters might remember Jim and would wish him well in his retirement. You might also recognise some old mates. Bloody good do, where were you Doug ?? It's reported that at least one Nav turned up.

Smudge :ok:

[fergineer]

Its the days that we live in Smuj with that many people there who was down the route!!!!

[smujsmith]

Fergie, agreed fully.

Smudge :ok:

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Orrrrrrrrr..........Orrrrrrrrr!
Hoots, mae fair skettlin dreekits, by the way
Thon muchty ma stonky munter
Tak drochit and ken wee Jim Hunter

[Dougie M]

Why is it that these convivial gatherings to say farewell to mess members are no longer popular on the premier transport base in Oxfordshire. What used to be a much anticipated and fully supported function at Lyneham now seems to be trending to be held at other Stations or civilian venues. I attended two such functions at South Cerney Officers Mess last year, which was a great trip down memory lane and although enjoyable, due to the squaddification of the station, just didn't have the ambiance. The first occasion, when the two men and a boy from 29 Movs. Regt. were absent I just pitched up at the gate. The Modplod had a list of attendees. "Do you know where the O.M. is?" he asked. "I joined up here 50 years ago" I said. "Well you'll find it in the same place" he said. The second time, the pongos were "in" and we had to book in through the control of entry but were unescorted.
On the other hand, when 622 was inaugurated there was a choke point at the guard room at Braize of twenty or so vehicles because there were no escorts and only the arrival of a serving member, who managed to wave us all through as a "convoy", saved the blood pressures. I'm sure that even with contract catering Top Tables could still be a "Service" function rather than having to use the back room of "The Frog and Nightgown".

[Top Bunk Tester]

Dougie, in the last year I've been to 3 Top Tables at the Secret Oxfordshire Aerodrome. Granted I do have a contractors pass so gaining entry is a little easier, but can't say I've noticed a decline.

[Dougie M]

TBT
I am happy to stand corrected and I wish good fortune to all those concerned. Maybe it's because the ones I attended were mostly associated with the K fleet. Or maybe it's me (more likely) but the last Top Table I attended was in MacKenzies in Old Town Swindon. At least I could use my bus pass to get home!

[WIDN62]

SPHLC - you and Mr Polis singing in Greek (- was it 'Old Macdonald had a Farm'?) after all the other 'guests' had left his kebab house was one of the funniest things I have seen down route. I had obviously drunk just the right amount of alcohol to enjoy it at the time and remember most of it the next day.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

WIDN62
SPHLC - you and Mr Polis singing in Greek (- was it 'Old Macdonald had a Farm'?)...Spooky! At Jim Hunter's request I attempted it as a sing song just before the top table retired to the bar, but on this occasion, didn't quite pull it off as there were 220 drunkards out of control, needing a leak/fag




Dougie M
Why is it that these convivial gatherings to say farewell to mess members are no longer popular on the premier transport base in Oxfordshire...I've been to 2 or 3 Top Tables at Brize (Sgts Mess) and it seems we were spoilt at Lyneham. There was no service. Cold starters were already laid. Main course was a buffet queue at the server! And desert was laid up on side tables for collection. Good times were had by all, but they barely qualify as a "Top Table Luncheon"


Also, there were 220+ guests at the De Vere last Friday. Even Lyneham could only cope with 80

[Dougie M]

SPHLC.
Good point, well made sir. I suppose silver service is too costly these days anyway. They had better be in good order for the centenaries next year.
Dougie

[Wurzel Gummidge]

SPHLC - did you get any picture framing business from our young waitress?

[smujsmith]

Wherever it was held, it was a fitting and well "produced" event. I enjoyed the screens with the history of Jim and his career. I'm sure that I never, ever attended a function with more old mates than Jims farewell. Och a muchty Blar de Blar, whatever, he was a good bloke to work with, and I hope he has a great time in his retirement. Now, anyone know a good source for Compo biscuits (the porridge variety) without my having to join the reserves ?

Smudge :ok:

[Dougie M]

Hi Smuj
What a segue from Top Tables to Compo. I presume you mean the oatmeal blocks in the old brass tins that were in the 10 man "Ratpacks". I haven't laid eyes on them in a coon's age, even in the Reservists. You can get the new "meals" on line if you want but I wouldn't know where to find the old tins with the triangular sausages and single sheet toilet paper.




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[smujsmith]

Ahhh Doug,

Like your good self, all my favourites on a Sunday evening. I'm considering an eBay search, surely there's a squaddie around who has some unopened offerings ? As for the segue, well, some things just stick in your memory, others awaken them:eek: Crikey, a bit profound for an old hammock operator.

Smudge :ok:

[Army Mover]

Ahhh Doug,

Like your good self, all my favourites on a Sunday evening. I'm considering an eBay search, surely there's a squaddie around who has some unopened offerings ? As for the segue, well, some things just stick in your memory, others awaken them:eek: Crikey, a bit profound for an old hammock operator.

Smudge :ok:

Smuj - this site (http://rations.vesteyfoods.com/components.asp?ctypeID=11&ctype=Biscuits) claims to sell them; unfortunately, having been force fed the damn things for 24 years, I don't share your culinary lustings, so can't guarantee the source or the quality.

Best of luck. :E

[smujsmith]

AM,

Many thanks for that I will give them a go.

Smudge :ok:

[Wander00]

As a slight aside and following the compo detour, as a 16/17 year old CCF cadet we went to camp at Lydd, but the grown-ups had forgotten to book the cooks. Selected by schoolmaster masquerading as Lt Col, from a cast of one ("You want to be a leader of men") so for a week, from a vast stock of compo boxes and some fresh bread and potatoes, and with a daily squad of helpers, I fed 150 cadets and officers. It was actually good fun, but absolutely knackering. So "compo" has a special place in my heart

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I have just checked out the site and they no longer sell on line. You have to phone in for info/prices.

[DeanoP]

I found the link to the forum on 24Sqn Assoc newsletter and was surprised to be mentioned. Post No 2148 infers I was asleep on this course however I was awake for a short time as this photo shows. I had massive help with the exam-thanks Snoopy!
I was crewed with Ancient Aviator on 48Sqn and latterly with him at EU.
Presume Android is Snoopy?



https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1639/img004_7338cde7b48e2610bb84fed5754c3bdd66d915f8.jpeg
Allison Engines Course Indianapolis. B/R: John Robbins, Charle Hartridge, Len Davis, R? Mitchell F/R: Bob Blake, Dean Pringuer, Pete Burrage and Wally alias (Snoopy) Rhodes

[ancientaviator62]

Dean,
how very nice to hear (and see !) from you on this 'K' thread. Trust you and yours are well.

[Dougie M]

Those were the days when you could get a full issue of No.6 uniforms for a 3 day course. Not sure about the khaki socks in the front row though.

[DeanoP]

No 6's were borrowed from the MOD stock - probably one size fits all. They certainly were not tailored

Nav were at Sewart AFB for about a month but pilots were there a lot longer, probably two months or so.

[ancientaviator62]

Dean,
do you have any more pics/stories from your time on the 'K' ?

[DeanoP]

I was Nav on OC48Sqn's route check Changi-Hong Kong in March 1970. Wx was poor at Kai Tak and we had to hold for 30min. On pre-landing checks nose wheel(NLG) would not lock. We continued in the hold to sort it out. Inspection through the NLG inspection window showed the NLG hydraulic line damaged. A decision was made to divert to Clarke AFB ( Philippines)about 600nms away, as there was a strong possibility of NLG collapse on landing at Kai Tak and blocking runway + poor Wx there. Clarke was CAVOK and had a foam strip available and C130 servicing. En route to Clarke, NLG hatch was removed, and a load restraint chain passed around the NLG and tensioned back to a strong point in the hold. Diversion was at 163kts (the gear down limiting speed), at 12000ft because we had pax on board and no pressurisation with NLG hatch removed. Clarke laid a foam strip for us and with a very gentle lowering of the nose the NLG held firm. Total flight time was 8hrs 30mins and we landed with 1500lbs (about 30mins) fuel remaining.
We carried fuel for the wife and kids in those days, thank goodness!

Guess who the ALM was and,if he did, how did he do it?

Return flight from Clarke to Kai Tak is another story

[ancientaviator62]

Dean,
have you read all the posts on this thread ? I assume your last post refers to the person I told the hydraulic stories about. As for how it was done more technically qualified posters could perhaps answer that if indeed he was responsible this time given that you say the hydraulic lines were damaged. However the emergency nosewheel lowering handle was situated on the port side of the cargo compartment forward of the Utility hudraulic system. This would need to be powered by the Aux system or the hand pump. How this operation would damage the haydraulic lines I know not.

[smujsmith]

Hmm,

Interesting conjecture on this gentlemen. I'm wondering how the emergency lowering system for the nose gear would work, if the system hydraulics lines were "damaged", as I believe, the aux/hand pump lowering would require the integrity of the normal system pipe work (awaiting howls of derision from the ginger beers etc), I do claim age, and a diminishing knowledge of Alberts systems in my defence. I'm sure if a chain was passed around the nose leg and fed back to the freight bay, the para retrieval winch could have been used to pull it back to its locked position, though I doubt a winch was aboard that aircraft. Somehow I have a memory of a tie down point just aft of the NLG access window, under the flight deck floor, specifically for use in such an emergency, maybe my memory is in error. Perhaps Dean could enlighten us all.

Meanwhile, I offer this small snippet. On my way home from a Belize trip, we arrived for the scheduled Gander night stop and I duly set about putting our Albert to bed. We had had a long day as some pre flight engineering problems had to be fixed. So, by the time I was ready to go down to Sinbads, I was truly knackered. Imagine my surprise to see another Albert taxy in and park next to us. Now, there was an unwritten, but always respected in my experience, rule amongst GE's, you do not walk away from a mate who might have problems, so, I wandered over to see if I might be of assistance.

The GE on board was one Joe *on. They were returning from a trip to the west coast of the US and had had a bit of an experience two days before. I must say that Joe, by trade, was an engine man, so "riggering" was not his forte. In the cruise the Nav decided to make the tea and coffe order, on stepping on the galley floor his portly frame overcame the capacity of the structure to support him, and duly collapsed. After the loady had ensured that the Nav had suffered no injury, he noticed that the crew door handle had been moved to the jettison position :eek: why the door didn't go is a mystery. The loady, being a very bright bloke decided that the door needed some chains and chock tensioning to ensure it stayed firmly closed. Joe was informed when he woke up for landing. Bloody good crew I say. Now, it turns out that Joe had asked for a new galley floor to be positioned at Gander for their arrival, his intention being to replace it. No problems with that said I, but, we have to re rig the crew door, after its jettison selection. So, some 6 hours later, his aircraft had a new galley floor, full checks on the crew door and a pressurisation check carried out to ensure its integrity. With around six hours to go to "wheels" I decided that the top bunk was my best hotel for the night, not the first occasion. Of course, the galley floor was a secondary issue, but has anyone else experience its collapse, at altitude and considered its operating the door jettison handle ?

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
as I recall the SOP when using the Emergency Nose Wheel lever for the intended purpose was to first use the Aux pump handle to ensure that pressure was retained in the lines. If you did not then any leak from the lines would deplete the Aux system very quickly indeed when the Aux pump was switched on and full pressure was applied.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

Yes, I understand that, I'm thinking of DeanoP's post and the reference to the "damaged" nose gear hydraulic pipes. If the pipes were damaged to the extent that the utility system could not lower the gear, then the emergency system wouldn't work either. If my memory serves me correctly, the aux system is used through those same hydraulic lines. As I recall the emergency lowering system for the nose wheel was intended to cope with a utility system power failure, not damaged pipework. No doubt, someone like Kilwhang or Gopher 01 might throw more light on it.

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
yes if the lines were damaged then no amount of Hydraulic 'fiddling' would help. I was trying to understand from Dean's post how they came to be so damaged and whether this could be blamed on our 'suspect'. Or was it just one of those coincidences. The nose gear could be encouraged to freefall by the application of a lever on the co pilot's side of the a/c. Then a mix of speed and gentle manouveres could persuade it to lock down.

[smujsmith]

Perhaps time for Dean to answer his own conundrum AA62. I have to say, I can't quite get my head around the problem. I believe he has given us a nose gear not locked down indication, with evidence of hydraulic pipe damage on inspection through the window. As you suggested, some rearward coercion through the removed window aperture, and judicious application of G might coax the leg in to locks. Mind you, he isn't really telling us it wasn't locked down, merely indicating an unlocked indication, a micro switch could achieve that, with the gear down and locked !! Ahh, Sunday afternoon quizzes:D

Hope you are well

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

smudge,
just to add to the 'confusion' (in my head anyway) when we first got the 'K' I seem to recall the nosegear ground lock was a largish wedge shaped bit of kit. Quite what the mod was to the nosegear that resulted in the pin being substituted I know not.
There was originally a tie down scheme for the nosegear but again I cannot recall how valid it still was with the modded nosegear.

[Null Orifice]

aa62

I remember the wedge-type nose gear lock but can't access my memory bank regarding the mod that introduced the nose gear pin. After all, it was over 40 years ago.

I also remember that some, if not all, of the early Ks were delivered with main gear tyre treads that resembled Brillo Pads (ice grip? - or were they for electrical 'grounding' prior to the prong system). These treads were quite painful to any naked parts of the anatomy :eek: that happened to come into contact with them while attempting to enter/exit the MLG area.

Harking back to those early days of the K, at Colerne there was a local order that required the MLG doors to be pinned into the raised position for ground movements, i.e. towing. This somewhat baffling rule was in force for a few months before being rescinded - my grey cells refuse to cough up with any valid reason why this rule was introduced in the first instance, but I have a hazy recollection of it being partly to assist the wash-bay team on pre-inspection bath time.
I believe the introduction of the 'inspection-team wash':hmm: may have led to the MLG doors-up order being abandoned.

[smujsmith]

Null,

I well remember the requirement for MLG doors pinned up for towing at Colerne circa 71-73 but can't ever remember there being a "wash bay team". I was on White team (Base 3) Fosse way Air Force and we washed our own aircraft. I have a very fond memory of helping to wash a 70 Sqdn, crud and custard, airframe, inbound for Base 3. Whilst scrubbing the structure to the rear of the RH MLG my brush head disappeared inside the skin. We subsequently found a large hole in the skin, camouflaged with black bodge tape, and never a mention in the aircraft documents. I'm sure you had similar experience.

Smudge :ok:

[Null Orifice]

Smuj
In the late 60s there was a 'dedicated' wash team of sorts: a corporal rigger was i/c a couple of civvies and these were occasionally boosted by some casual RAF 'volunteers'. The team wash system was introduced while I was on Blue Team in the very late 60s, quite an enjoyable diversion for us hangar-bound techies in the summer, but not a totally enjoyable experience in the cooler seasons!
I heard about the 'aertex' Herc from 70 but, like yourself, didn't know how/why/what happened to it.

[smujsmith]

Heh heh, thanks for that Null, you obviously predate me at Colerne by a couple of years, 69 I started at Halton. I well remember the wash bay, over where the old museum aircraft were stored. To this day I remember there being a large container labelled "descaling fluid" at the side of the pan. I always wondered what it was used for, you can imagine an 18 year olds curiosity, and it's ability to clean up a penny was amazing. Do you remember the stuff, and was it used on aircraft ? As for washing the aircraft, pre Base 3, another memory was doing undercarriages or flap bays, wearing a "zoot suit" and getting back to the block with more black grime over me than if I'd helped do the wash in a pair of shreddies. The second was waiting around 3 days for my eyes to get back to being able to see again, after the detergent we used had spent the day finding its way into them. Happy days though, Colerne was a great place to learn your trade in the early 70s.

Best

Smudge :ok:

Now, DeanoP, give us the story on your nose leg problem, and put us out of our collective miseries.

[DeanoP]

AA62 & Smuj

The ALM involved was the same as AA62 referred to.
I am ill qualified to comment on the technicalities of the event having little knowledge of the `hydraulic system. As far as I know the the NLG unlocked and indicated unlocked. It 'freefell and dangled in the airflow and needed drawing back in to a supportive position. I was on the flight deck all the time and did not see what was happening under the flight deck. As far as I recollect there was no discussion about the application of 'G' because I think that being down, it just needed pulling back. I do not think we ever got a 'down' indication after the tie back and just hoped it would not collapse on landing.
The recovery to Kai Tak was at night in good Wx conditions for landing. After T/O the gear was selected 'Up' but all the wheels did not move and remained in the locked position. The captain called for the gear selector to be returned to the down position and we continued en route.
On approach to Kai Tak the captain felt undemanded inputs to the control column, and this was confirmed by the copilot. The A/C was handed over to HAEC for investigation.
The second incident adds to the circumstantial evidence but from your technical comments the first incident appears to be a coincidence.
I believe there was a mod, sometime later, to the NLG that did not allow the gear to be tensioned back any more

[ancientaviator62]

I have had a good 'thunk' and have convinced myself that after the nosegear mod the NLG tie down scheme became obselete. We were thus left with only the MLG as having a tiedown option.
As Dean says the control 'snatching' may well have been an additional action by our suspect but I still cannot work out how he could have been responsible for the NLG problem. Perhaps he used it to mask his control 'inputs'.
Dean, I notice some nice pics of yours on the Khormaksar thread. Do you have any of the 'K' you could post here ?

[DeanoP]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1340x2000/pict0024_824523917b789a359125753c42e40c00fe0e0875.jpg
Ferry crews stayed in the Pine Forest Motel Atlanta Georgia


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1360x2000/pict0032_0ec3a0ce6ee6f7facca7537136a5c3161b586e01.jpg
XV 192 En Route ferry flight Atlanta to the UK via Kindley, Bermuda and Lajes. View through the cupola


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XV!92 at Kindley 24th April 1967 before the paint job


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No Autopilot in those days and 1010 TIT High Speed Cruise F/L Simpson (cape) & F/O Cresswell


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/pict0003_211ef414a022ae85a8f3f36829d23594393027e8.jpeg
Studying the DoD Approach charts for Lajes airfield


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/pict0025_c44e5d0a8f284c8602c638c2cb354f881a0fb50b.jpeg
'Running-in' the new Allison T-15 turboprops



.



.

.

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Dean ...

Simply wonderful to see pics of Albert at the start of his service life ... That polished aluminium is stunning even if a little impractical. What a clean crisp cockpit ... Just love the new flying gloves for the ferry flight :D:D:D:D

Hopefully you have a few more little treasures ;)

[ancientaviator62]

Dean,
great pictures. Ah 1010, the famous High Speed Cruise !

[ksimboy]

Proper engine instruments as well !!

[smujsmith]

Too true Ksimboy.

DeanoP,

Smashing photographs sir, and a joy to see, so far in to our tour of K history. I for one was never fortunate enough to see, let alone wrk with, a shiny K. Thanks for posting, I'm sure you must have more records of the history of this finest of transport aircraft. The last trip I did in 192;

27-Oct-94 to 28-Oct-94 24 Squadron Crew on a JACIG trip. 9.15 recorded flying hours taking in Kiev/Riga

Unfortunately the crew were not recorded in my records. Curiously, it seems it's also the only trip I did as a GE on XV192 in six years as a GE.

Smudge :ok:

[Brian 48nav]

Re 1010 TIT - was that setting always used during the K's life? I remember hearing that our Commonwealth allies used 980 and thought we were strange for using the higher figure.

A nav' on 30, Pete Hicks, produced reams of paper extolling the virtues of always using Long Range Cruise - I must say from a strictly range point of view I wasn't convinced. It remained HSC up to when I left in late '73.

Smuj,

You probably know this already but the shiny silver only lasted until handover to Marshalls on delivery from the US.

Dean,

I seem to recall that Marshalls fitted some of the nav' gear, particularly Decca and Loran - apart from the sextant what else did you have on the delivery flights?

I've just remembered that awful Decca Flight Log gizmo that was fitted above the engine instrument panel ( ? ) on the Thorney Hercs - we didn't have them on 48, I wonder if 36 & 24 had them?

[ancientaviator62]

I remember one silver 'K' arriving at Colerne at the end of the Hastings era. I think it was XV 179.
My first flight in 192 was on March 12 1969 from Muharraq to Akrotiri as part of the famous 'Changi Slip'.

[smujsmith]

Brian 48 Nav,

Yep, well aware and never saw a silver bird live myself, I'm far too young. As witnessed by the fact that "old" AA62 was flying the beast around 6 months after I started my apprentice training at Halton, aged 15 and a half! I can claim having worked on the beast in "crud and custard" dress, and, enjoying the company of Colernes cowboy hatted Lockheed rep, in many a bar across Wiltshire and Somerset. To this day I wish I had applied for aircrew at that time, they seem to have been the days. Never mind, being SLF as a GE was also most enjoyable in my later years. At least I can say I was a Corporal :eek:

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
I held every rank from B/E TO S/L except C/T !

[1.3VStall]

aa62,

Eric Dunn (ex Chief Engineer) held every rank in the RAF except WO and MRAF! He was the only air officer I ever met who had a BEM, which was awarded when he was a FS.

[Wander00]

Lord Cameron, for one, must have started as an AC2 in training, sgt on qualifying for wings, probably missed WO, and ended as MRAF - not bad

[DeanoP]

Brian 48nav
Nice to see you at the last 48Sqn reunion. Amazing number of attendees for a long defunct squadron. Possibly a sqn with a lot of shared happy memories. I certainly loved the Far East flying- every trip was an adventure.
Do you remember this island overflown on LLXC East coast of Malaya. Looking at Google Earth, I think I have identified it as 'Pulau Seri Buat' (N2.67538 E103.91353)



https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1316/scan_4_3_9249fdb81705a41ce6415f3530dc09275b94791f.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1429/scan_4_2_f0822859b1fea118531ebba8a6a3c52ac969a8c8.jpeg

Regarding nav eqpt on ferry flights: Apart from Astro there were no long range nav aids, as you say Loran A/C was fitted later. The return legs were relatively short as well and no worries about staying on track in those days. Legs were Marietta to Bermuda, Lajes and Cambridge. I believe the first flight went direct from Bermuda to Cambridge at night- Nav was Dolly Gray who instructed at Thorney Isle on Herc 'A' flight, so astro was his main aid. As for the other eqpt-VOR/DME/TACAN/ADF &E290 radar. Luckily the Doppler eqpt, being new, was quite good. Decca rolling map display, again fitted later, was a wast of space with very distorted maps and lots of map changes.

[DeanoP]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/pict0011_5__006c34dede1084861a8c04f91274f9ca01b72c08.jpeg
AA62

Were you on any of these trips?
With OC 48 Sqn 24th April 1971. En route to Calcutta from Kathmandu. V.cloudy flew IMC to safe alt (34,000ft) thinking that we were not going to see it and then it appeared. Awe inspiring!!

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1460/scan_2_ac02e3a53490b528deaa0bb70bf61d74ab7c715e.jpeg

Tried again with our captain, Dave Peet, on 14th Oct 1971. En route to Calcutta. Beautiful day circled the mountain at 28000ft.
XV307 at Kathmandu before flight. Don Grange in foreground displaying the ultimate in nav bags. (Notice PT exercise in front of the DC3)

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/pict0013_ad6d754d4aece52abc9423d12ac1aaf6df132d60.jpeg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1294x886/img004_copy_2_b53066cd85e025eb45b2927125434c37b036ae3b.jpeg

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https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/936x646/img001_160bd36539aa80cde0a4c874aab23756d0bc5442.jpeg

[glad rag]

Thanks for sharing those wonderful photographs :ok:

[4mastacker]

smujsmith wrote:

...After the loady had ensured that the Nav had suffered no injury, he noticed that the crew door handle had been moved to the jettison position why the door didn't go is a mystery. The loady, being a very bright bloke decided that the door needed some chains and chock tensioning to ensure it stayed firmly closed. Joe was informed when he woke up for landing....

I remember a Hercules arriving at Fairford with the handle of the crew door lashed by a chain and tensioner to the steps up to the flight deck. That would have been late 1969. I thought the aircraft had arrived from Cyprus - it was carrying a number of demijohns filled with some sort of liquid and some baskets of oranges. I seem to remember that there were a number of people, including the station photographer, waiting for the aircraft when it arrived.

[ancientaviator62]

Dean,
on your first date mentioned I was on a trip the 'other' way to Edinburgh via Darwin. I assume you have seen my pics of Scenic Departure One from Kathmandu The second date I had the pleasure of flying with 'android' all the way from Lyneham to Colerne and back in different frames.
I was crewed up with Dave P. at Changi. I was not too keen on the OC at the time although I was the ALM on the flypast a/c at his funeral.

[ancientaviator62]

When we first got the 'K' we did have lots of crew entrance door problems in flight. Hence the agricultural reinforcement you see around the exterior of the door. The sytem 'cured ' most of these by removing the 'door locked 'microswitch and just leaving the 'door closed ' microswitch in place. I have commented on an earlier post my thoughts on this engineering masterstroke but if anyone needs a recap I will do so.
As for chaining the door , the weak link was on the door itself where the chain would need to go. A mot point whether it would have retained a door bent on doing a runner.

[ancientaviator62]

1.3VStall,
I once met Sir Eric. I knew he had been an ex wartime Aircraft Apprentice but had not realised he had risen to the rank of F/S before being commissioned in the Engineering Branch. As you say he did well.

[DeanoP]

AA62
Ref your Post No 199

I was with you on the Mahe visit and the subsequent flypast. A bit daring to bank at 90deg about 100ft above the sea with 60ft of wing just above the waves. He was the Wing pilot and would know it was reckless, irresponsible and illegal. There have been so many crashes with this type of scenario, remote location and no chance of being reported.
The flight back to Gan was in beautiful weather conditions and very smooth air. Upon landing the flight engineer asked how he should explain the very high fatigue meter readings to which the Wing pilot said 'put it down to severe turbulence en route'.
I believe his flying expertise caught up with him at St Athan in 1993!

At the time it seemed to be good fun but it could have been quite different.

[Brian W May]

Yep, had something similar with Andy L** who did a run and break over Masirah with a pull up and a 90° plus wing over.

He was showing off to the two ATC guys who travelled down to Salalah with us. He said 'Just like a Spitfire' - I said 'No, a Spitfire had a crew of one . . . '

The guy was an arse, I have no sympathy for those who whimsically overstress aircraft. The payment was often levied on someone not associated with the abuse.

Often, I've been accused of being a kill-joy, but the Hercules gave most of us enough memories without busting the very limits that were there for our safety.

I suppose my 'finest hour' was when I reported the Falcons Hercules for overstress when at Lyneham's Families Day the aircraft overbanked to in excess of 100°. There were a few 'private' chats going on, including veiled threats and aerodynamic explanations that a wing-over was part of a barrel roll which is 1 g all the way round.

That was flown by Jeff B***** whose strong suite was drinking several pints to everyone else's one especially when a kitty was being ran.

My answer was that presumably Lockheed knew that too and still imposed a 60° flapless bank limit.

Eventually, I had to drop it due to 'pressure' being applied. Just part of the world we live in I suppose.

I daresay this might attract incoming too. It wasn't all good fun . . .

[dragartist]

Dean, Brian,
My heart is warmed by responsible attitude in the two posts above.
On this day particular I always spare a thought for Private Game who was needlessly killed on duty by someone having a bit too much fun. Must be 20 years ago now.
Nuff said.

[canard68]

Just had a look through an old movements log and noticed several Australian C130s visited Woodford in late 1960 /61 in and out of Lajes. This must have been some of the earliest C130 movements in the UK.

[smujsmith]

Canard, those moves were before my time, and you may well be correct on first C130s. I know that the blokes at RAAF Richmond saved my, and Doug M's bacon some years ago with a rear gitz replacement. At least he got the day off !!!!

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Dean,
I vividly remember the Mahe flypast and the 'G' meter readings. Yes the captain, Roger S. was rather prone to that sort of thing. As I recall he had done an exchange with the USAF on the 'Ski' 130. Later on he did another tour with the USAF on the F111 before becoming OC 35 on the Vulcan.
He died as Group Captain Air Cadets in a Chipmunk crash. His passenger was badly injured I believe.
I believe my pic on an earlier thread shows Jeff B. at the Lyneham families day and the extreme angle of bank mentioned.

[ancientaviator62]

I wonder if the first C130s to visit the UK were those of the USAF.

[Dougie M]

Drag.
There was actually a flying exercise at JATE called Regal Mount where u/t staff were subjected to a profile of steep turns and application of positive and zero G to demonstrate the necessity for correct load restraint. It was also an excuse for Flying Section to "horse it about a bit" which was deeply gratifying.
This, however, in no way gave an excuse for dangerous low flying. I was guesting on JATE some years after leaving and remonstrated with that pilot after a DZ inspection on an MSP at Larkhill which put us below the surrounding terrain, and on Salisbury Plain that was V. difficult. He countered by saying that he was a QFI and knew his job, until South Cerney.

[Brian W May]

Yeah, most of the pilots I knew personally that crashed and killed themselves were QFIs too.

Sorry about the thread drift . . .

[mr ripley]

As a former QFI elsewhere and of course on Hercs I don't really appreciate that comment.

[Lockstock]

Stupid, ignorant comment from someone who knows no better, or has a big chip on their shoulder.

30+ years in, I have lost many mates; no correlation with being a QFI and accident rate.

[Brian W May]

I knew personally

What part of that are you having difficulty with?

[Brian 48nav]

When I was on 48 I'm sure I never experienced more than 30-40 degrees of bank, which suited me fine! Not long after joining 30Sqn I was on a sortie that involved displaying at 4 different locations for RAFA shows - North Weald was one, Henlow another and maybe Sleap.
I was absolutely horrified when the skipper, a Flt Cdr, Peter Henley, put 90 degrees of bank on at about 300'. To my mind it was stupid and dangerous, but then that was back in the day ( 1970 ) when the Herc' was very much a route flying aircraft. I've no idea if PH was a QFI, but the only consolation was that the co-pilot, Chris Cureton was ex-Lightnings. I made a mental note to avoid flying with Henley again. An image that had stuck in my mind for the previous 2 years was the sequence of photographs in Air Clues, (or was it ASC Safety Review? ), of the Argosy in Libya that had gone in after the idiot flying it had decided to beat up the strip that they had just departed from and the wing tip struck a water tower.

Many years later while I was in Stornaway as a civil ATCO, Peter Henley, by then with Bae, brought a 748 in on demonstration for the Scottish Fisheries Office. His take-off technique had me reaching for the crash alarm as I was convinced he had put excessive bank on after rotating! I think he was a bloody show-off. He worked as a test pilot for Bae, without having done a TP course - I know because my son used to organise the annual tp get together at Boscombe.

The J*** B***** referred to above - was he the Staish that my old mate George Brown said was the most detested since F***** Y******?

[Brian W May]

Yes Brian I believe it is.

I also knew Pete Henley, but apparently I'm now stupid and ignorant so will refrain from agreeing in case it be deemed provocative.

Odd isn't it when a simple statement of FACT engenders that kind of response- I mean, I can even name them after all these years. Still, after 45 years in aviation, what would I know?

Comment complete.

[condor17]

DeanoP,
Thank you for sharing those marvelous shots of Everest . Must have been a wonderful experience . Almost ' twice in a lifetime ' .
On the second trip did you fly through the Col ? Or was it a case of ''Whoop Whoop , Pull up ''?
Still have a memory of a couple of years ago , out for walk in the September 'gloaming' , only to hear an hum and look around to see an Herk between Hambledon Hill and Hod Hill , just over the mini Col .
But 28000 ' and some higher must been something .

thanks rgds condor

[1066]

Dean and AA62,
I had not long been with 3AEF, John Stapp finally retired as Boss about the same time, no coincidence I hope, when the Saint Athan fatal happened. The pilot had been guesting at Hullavington not long before.
I don't suppose any of his history came out in the BoI.
I also doubt whether any of this history was ever written in his reports.
If it had been reported, one would have hoped that he would not have been given such a senior flying supervisory role?
Lots of hidden Swiss cheese slices!
1066

[Brian W May]

Stupid, ignorant comment from someone who knows no better, or has a big chip on their shoulder.

Careful, this is what happens if you confuse the issue with facts . . .

John Stappard in my personal experience was a joy to fly with, we were instructors together on 242 OCU - gentleman.

[Vasco Sodcat]

DeanoP,

What a surprise I got when I saw you'd put up a photo of my old Dad in your post (back row, third from left). I hadn't seen that one before, so a huge thank you. I had been thinking that all of you that share 48 Sqn memories would have known him, feel free to PM if any of you did.

VS.

[ancientaviator62]

Posters,
we must be careful to ensure that this wonderful thread does not degenerate into the type of personal slanging match that so blights others.
I wonder if Dean or Brian48Nav have anymore pics they can share with us.
Dragartist have you seen Dean's pics of Valetta airdrops on the Khormaksar thread ?

[bingofuel]

I recall someone asking a while ago if we could have more input from the 'two winged master race' as to what the aircraft was like to fly, what it was like at OCU, even comments from those who were maybe streamed multi against their wishes and how they found it. I for one would like to read posts from such people.

A fascinating thread so far, when we had a somewhat larger RAF than we have these days!

[DeanoP]

Towards the end of one of those wonderful trips: Changi, Port Moresby, Tarawa, Christmas Island, Honolulu, Christmas, Tarawa, Funafuti, Port Moresby, Darwin, Changi. I think this is Funafuti as we had to deliver a large carpet for a forthcoming Royal Visit, I believe. This picture taken 26th August 1970. Was AA62 on this trip?


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1389/pict0001_a790fbbaa4102e4cb18c6f6e89edd8ea8a8c4b3c.jpeg

[DeanoP]

Condor 17 Ref Post No 3867

I think we did fly over the Col although I do not have a clear recollection of the event. I remember calling the range to Mt. Everest using the E290 radar and thinking afterwards that we had strayed in to Chinese airspace so we must have circled the mountain. It was a very calm day but I do not remember any of us talking about the possibilities of down draughts. We did keep a respectful distance though. Trouble is that it was 45 years ago and memories fade.

[CoffmanStarter]

Dean ...

If I recall some of AA62's earlier 'exploits' ... He may have been delivering mortar and a cistern pan for possible Royal patronage ... ;)

[Brian 48nav]

As soon as I saw Dean's photograph showing your dad I meant to make a comment, but our protracted house build is coming to a climax, yippee, and it slipped my mind.

What a great bloke Len Davies was! He was Nav Ldr when I arrived on 48 late '67 and became Wing Nav a few weeks later - a kinder and more pleasant man it would be hard to beat.

After Changi I only met him on a few occasions, the last being a 48 reunion at Lyneham in the mid-80s and I recall him saying that his son had also become a Herc' nav and was due to be route checked by Mike Eacopo on the following day. A year or two later Mike was a Flt Cdr on my son's Cranwell course, along with another ex-Herc guy, a driver I think, whose name has escaped me. My son went to "the dark side' and became a FJ single seat man.

Under coincidences, while holding for his pilot course he did a Herc' flight from Lyneham to Akrotiri and met his "Uncle Arthur C******' in Flt Planning.

Dean

Good to see you too and I hope to see you again at next year's centenary bash. A few new faces have put their names forward including another ex 4 Course nav, Dai Jones.

I did that Kathmandu trip almost 2 years to the day ahead of yours and took some slides too; I hope to locate those when our gear comes out of store on Thursday. I got back to Changi to find I had become a father, to the future FJ pilot, and Anne my poor 19 yr old wife had to go through the whole thing without me. I don't suppose fathers to-be would have been allowed at the birth back in '69, I even got bollocked by a stroppy young nurse for picking my son up. Perhaps being post-route sweaty horrified her!

AA62

I hardly took any photos in my short RAF career but will have a search soon - then I'll have to ask Coffman for help again!


PS

Why was 203 showing Air Support command and not RAF Far East as it had initially - as had all of the first batch, 198-209 inclusive?

[CoffmanStarter]

Anytime Brian :ok:

[dragartist]

Thanks for the pointer AA62, I found the pics at post #224 I think. I am pleased cross treading is allowed on here.


Not sure if those same straps weren't still in the war stores at Cerney when we undertook a huge disposal exercise. I love the wicker baskets. I first came across them known as Harry Packes named after an Army Guy called Packe. VX274 may know more. There are good descriptions in Dennis Williams book Stirlings in Airborne Forces.


I think I have previously recounted how I was almost sacked for comments regarding the LGBT fraternity and proposals to dispose of the pink cotton 28fts and retain the blue rayon ones. I certainly had an interview without coffee! My parting gift to my 2* at ABW was a framed photo of a pink one and blue one on a double drop at Keevil in 2010


Now why did you folks not adopt SEAC packs in the NEAF.


So what has this got to do with the K? - Most of the kit left over from Arnhem was still is use on the K and probably remains on the J and A400.


As for Agfa vs Kodak. My dad was an Agfa man when we were in Nairobi and KL. He still gets the slides out to show the great grandchildren pictures of their Grandad and Gt Uncle in KD shorts no top. I must dig out the slides of the inverted Twin Pin in the bondu.

[ancientaviator62]

Dean,
wonderful pics on post #3873. Yes I was on that trip and the captain was Dave P. As Coff says on one of the Funafuti trips we took all the elements to build a flushing loo. This was for HRH Prince Charles to use during his visit. Oh happy days. I think by 1970 frames were being replaced by ones from the UK and we would use them as they arrived and they would be repainted later with 'Far East Air Force' replacing 'Air Suport Command'.

[ancientaviator62]

Dragartist,
we used those wicker baskets on the infamous Hastings 'roller conveyor' airdrop system. Probably the same roller too !

[Vasco Sodcat]

"the inverted Twin Pin in the bondu"

Can't wait!

[smujsmith]

Brian 48 Nav and AA62,

Great shots of 203 in real "clothing". Like you, I wondered at the lack of FEAF identification on the aircraft, and have to agree with AA62 (for what my opinion is worth) that it's most likely a recent arrival in theatre, prior to proper "finish" :eek:

I will offer only that in my time at Colerne - early 71 to 73, I never once saw an aircraft on either base 2 or 3 servicing with a FEAF nameplate, though early on there were a few 70 Sqdn jobbies with NEAF wording on the fuselage. I wonder if that is down to 48 Sqdns having their second line servicing done elsewhere ?

Bingofuel, I might well have asked the question of pilots to highlight the peculiarities, or otherwise of flying Albert some time ago, it seems that unlike most pilots, Albert jockeys are reticent to enlighten us on the ins and out of operating the aircraft. Was it really that boring a job gentlemen ? I know that in my time as a GE there was many a long night spent fettling as a result of pilot "discomfort" with one aspect or another. Best of luck with your latest attempt to get some "flying" input to the thread, particularly from a "learning to fly it" point of view. Here's one from my days as a liney on ALSS circa 1986. A Captain was indignant that his seat cushion was "extremely" uncomfortable during his first sortie of two in a particular aircraft. We swapped it with the Co Pilots. On the second sortie debrief the Captain thanked the riggers for dealing with his seat cushion problem, the Co, who had also shown up at the debrief also said thanks for the seat cushion change, as his was more comfortable than the one he had ridden on the morning sortie. It takes all sorts !!!

Smudge :ok:

[bingofuel]

Smudge, as I think I mentioned to you, this thread is reminiscent of Sqn Ldr Dave Berry's book The RAF Britannia and its people, which is a great tomb of a volume full of similar stories on the Britannia fleet, which had some pilot input, so a comparison would be interesting.

[smujsmith]

Bingofuel, absolutely agree sir, come on you drivers airframe, tell us how easy it was to drive Albert :rolleyes:

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
in FEAF our major 'K' jobs were carried out by the Hong Kong Aircraft Engineering Company at Kai Tak. This may explain why you did not see any at Colerne.

[Brian 48nav]

Beat me to it! Yes I recall HAEC doing the majors and also helping out with urgent work such as an engine change.

On one trip we had night stopped on the Thursday and on the following morning shortly after departure the skipper, Dave Carter ( what a great bloke and a lifelong friend until his too early death in 2008 ) on doing a quick gander out of his side window spotted oil streaming out of No1. Back to Kai Tak, await new engine to be sent up from Changi and a wonderful weekend in HK enjoyed by all! Except for the Flt Eng, who had to help out with the engine change - wish I could remember his name.

On the Tuesday morning I wandered into the squadron to be greeted by the Stash, Grp Capt Merriman with " Enjoy your weekend in HK? ". Crikey, I thought, how does he know what a lowly Fg Off nav has been doing?

Re 203 - as stated before, at first we had a block of 12 Ks, 198-209 inclusive , I can recall 307 being the only replacement sent out in my time, not sure which kite went back to Colerne.

What amazes me about the much more recent stories here is that , the several wars aside i.e. GW1, the Herc was still doing fantastic routes. Back in 71 following the withdrawal from 'East of Suez', the word was that the Herc's new principal role would be to support the Army, particularly in Europe. As we still had a large 'shiny fleet' ( 5 Comets, 14 VC10s, 22 Brits and 10 Belfasts ) it looked to many of us that route flying was going to be very limited. It was certainly on my list of reasons to exercise my 8 year option and I know a lot of my mates felt the same.

[Null Orifice]

aa62 and Brian,

Yes, the major/heavy repairs were carried out by HAEC in HK, while the Base 2s were carried out by Changi ASF. Base 1s and engine/prop changes were usually carried out by 48 Sqdn ground crew.

As to the arrival of the replacement frame XV307 (one of the best at the time), I believe it was a substitute for either XV203 or 206. As I never kept a 'pretend I'm aircrew' logbook, I can't be sure if it was either of these!
I was the acting GE and inventory holder on the ferry flight of the aforesaid 'subbed' aircraft back to UK. This was due to a nasty crack in a vital part of the wing structure that was beyond local repair. The ferry flight was flown with severe limitations regarding the fuel load/disposition, minimum POB and was to be carried out in beautifully smooth, clear weather conditions only, none of that nasty turbulence stuff:ok:!
IIRC, the squadron cartoonist-in-residence, W---- R----- was the captain - if he lurks here he may be able to consult his captain's log to confirm my failing recollection of events.

Subsequently, I believe the Marshalls' team at Lyneham performed the magic fix.

[ancientaviator62]

Null,
WR does indeed lurk here. No doubt he will be along in a minute to confirm your story.

[ancientaviator62]

According to my log book I only did one UK delivery from FEAF. It was XV 179 with F/O W.... as captain. We returned to Changi on a VC 10.

[canard68]

I am sure Marshalls could sort this one out,
http://www.airforcemag.com/AircraftAccidentReports/Documents/2015/042115_AC130J_Eglin.pdf

[Vasco Sodcat]

unlike most pilots, Albert jockeys are reticent

Smuj,

No ex-Harrier pilots in here then :ok: :}

[CoffmanStarter]

Vasco ...

Albert pilots don't need 'flaps' on their flying boots to keep their laces dry :E

Hat, Coat ... Door GO !

[aeroid]

W..R.. is here and searching log book

[aeroid]

Yup its there XV 203. July 6 1971 dep Changi - Bahrain
7 dep Bahrain - Akrotiri
8 dep Akrotiri - Lyn.
Total flight time 24:50

In the right hand seat the current Sec of 24 Sqn Assn CH.. WH.....er. If you trawl back I posted, about a year ago, a story of this flight and the carriage of a certain Co-plot's ski boat.... and the subsequent unit enquiry!

PS if deano is on line, looking forward to renewing war stories next April

[CoffmanStarter]

Aeroid ...

Do you have any pics you could share with us ... Happy to help if you are uncertain on the process :ok:

[aeroid]

Will look Coff. Most of my stuff is still on slides but I did have some copied so I'll go look see.

[CoffmanStarter]

Well played that man :D

[DeanoP]

Instructors at 242 OCU at Thorney Island often joined the Changi slip pattern starting at Lyneham, where we picked up a copilot from one of the squadrons, to complete the crew .
On this occasion our ALM, Hutch, gave the rest of the crew a lift in his car from Thorney. Time to briefing was a bit tight and we were concerned when a wheel on Hutch’s car deflated near Wroughton. ‘ You have got a spare haven’t you Hutch’? we said. To which Hutch replied ‘Yes’ and proceeded to get a rim, a tube and a tyre from the boot and said ‘I’ll just hitch to the nearest garage and get them put together’. We thought that this guy was a bit crazy and that there was no way we were going to be at Ops at the briefing time but to our amazement, Hutch turned up after about 20 mins with an assembled wheel and we got airborne on schedule.

We flew from Lyneham direct to Bahrein by overflying Turkey and Iran (relatively friendly then) which was about a 10 hr flight and then from Bahrein direct Changi about 12 to 13 hrs. Crew Duty then was 19 hours.

A marvelous few days at Changi Creek Hotel and shopping in Changi village and then the return home loaded with goodies.

The return trip to Gan was on a lovely day when it was a pleasure to fly, no clouds, calm blue sea, basic crew (unusual for 242OCU), Gan NDB rock steady and pointing reassuringly dead ahead . Very relaxed until--
Hutch asks who would like a hot dog and proceeds to make them. About 10 mins later there is an enormous explosion by the crew door with lots of white vapour. My immediate thought was that the crew door had opened and I was going to be sucked through it. Then a sheepish voice over the i/c said ’Don’t worry,' explains Hutch, ’it’s only a sausage can exploding. I forgot to puncture the can before I put it in the oven’.
The white smoke was a combination of vapour and atomized sausage meat. Incredibly the oven door had remained closed but the explosion had forced the contents of the can past the oven seal, with majority of the atomized sausage being plastered down the freight bay. Luckily no pax or they would have been a bit smelly.

When it was time to call Gan, to give our serviceability state, the captain,trying not to laugh, requested a cleaning party to clean the freight bay after 'a large sausage explosion'! It was seemed very funny at the time.

Hutch was a wild card! Maybe somebody else remembers him?

[ancientaviator62]

Dean,
remember Hutch ? Oh yes......................... !
Not to be confused with another ALM called Hutch wh came along much later.

[Null Orifice]

aeroid
ref #3894

Many thanks for confirming the XV203 ferry details. The blonde one's ski boat incident had slipped my mind.

Do you have any interesting stories about your time on Test and Ferry Flt at Colerne?
I was on Blue Team and our paths crossed several times when you were RHS to B---- W----p. One memorable incident occurred when the bungee-bit of the centre escape hatch had been mis-rigged and 'popped' during an air test. I seem to remember that the FE, 'Pop' B-----r, didn't enjoy having to climb the onboard ladder to try and reset the thing because he wasn't too keen on heights!

[Gumpied]

Regarding FEAF markings, I operated XV297 back to UK in August 1971 as 48 were scaling down. Commander was the CO. (M. M. D) or Chris a Dusty pointed out in a famous cartoon in the crewroom downstairs!! We flew:
Changi - Gan, 8 Aug 5.50
Gan - Masirah, 9 Aug 5.00
Masirah - Akrotiri, 10 Aug 6.55
Akrotiri - Lyneham, 11 Aug 6.50

The aircraft certainly had FEAF markings and was going on to Colerne for servicing, Major I believe. As the F/E I was "nursing" a few problems on the aircraft when the ASCEU F/E, R.M., appeared at Akrotiri to check me on the last leg!! Maintained my B but with a stern warning from RM. IIRC a large portion of the load was "personal effects" for all crewmembers.

[CoffmanStarter]

Good to see you back Gumpied ...

Do you have any pics you'd like to share with us ? Happy to help you with the image posting process if needed :ok:

[condor17]

Dean , thanks for explanation . Glad it was calm and smooth . I agree memories fade , but you've just reignited mine , last used 30 yrs ago.... Ekco 290s .. nice Orange screen IIRC. Found the Cbs easily , 'specially on T1s which did not climb well . But more importantly picked up Bilbao's harbour wall very well even down to a short range , enabling a self guided radar approach to a dodgy field. I expect that as Ekco was an Essex mob , they'd tested it on Saarfend pier .
Must have been a first 'tho , self guided radar approach to Everests col.
Any more Albert radar stories ?

rgds condor .

[aeroid]

It may be just another war story but I recall the story of a young Nav, en route from Changi to Gan. After several hours of ducking and weaving bad weather he advised the Captain that another track correction might be necessary as another large build up was showing on the radar about 200 miles ahead.
"Not bloody likely" was the reply. "The next airfield is in East Africa....that's Gan!"

The old ones are the best.

[Null Orifice]

That wouldn't by any chance have been the same nav who almost 'missed' Oz on a return flight from NZ? :E ??

[R4H]

Never claimed to be part of a master race but here are some of my memories.


Taxiing - no problems. On ice and snow inboards to LSGI, outboards for left and right or reverse for slow. Could be done with outboards also at LSGI if careful.


Take-off no problem. Tac take-off obstacle or strip limiting slightly longer pull than expected. EFATO on outboard engine tac t/o obstacle limiting - large but smooth input of rudder while lowering nose and reducing power slightly on asymmetric live. Be quick but smooth. Lots of practice in sim. Had one LHS, after several practices start to anticipate rudder input so failed the other outboard on next go. Fin Stall and very rapid loss of control!


Climb and normal route cruise - if no autopilot - no problem by day big horizon. By night a bit tiring after a couple of hours using artificial horizon.


Low level - just like a big Jet Provost. Light, well coordinated and responsive controls up to around 210kt. Above 210kt quite easy to pull to overstress. Aircrew manual didn’t allow rolling reversals i.e. starting roll one way then quickly reversing controls, presumably due to momentum of moving wings. Very slight pause at stick neutral then roll.


Low speed e.g. fighter evasion around 140kt 50% flap 45 AOB and manoeuvering. Gentle inputs and a bit more rudder co-ordination needed especially at initial roll input. Very good turn radius and rate. Not much could turn with us and track. Gentle vertical changes and use of power could give a reasonable yoyo. Aim was to force low speed high turn rate tight turning fight. If a late sighting could use a “wingover” to negate firing solution - climb power while pitching to 20-30 degrees nose up, then 60 degree AOB, relax back pressure to start nose coming down then power idle. Choose dive angle and power up if speed needed or keep power down while levelling, 50 flap and into turning fight.


3 engine approach and landing or overshoot - no problem. 2 engine approach and landing - no problem. (John Stapp showed me how to use lots of power on inboard asymmetric then just use outboard asymmetric for speed control - not standard but easy to fly). 2 engine overshoot, gentle handling. When starting overshoot 5 degree AOB to live and dive was the mantra. AOB to validate Vmca2 and dive to aid acceleration then ease into climb. (Seats and straps were obviously designed for 6ft plus Texans wearing backpack chute. Had a smaller stature guy who obviously couldn't cinch lapstrap fully tight. Wasn't obvious until 2 engine overshoot. Controlled it but was up against lapstrap about an inch above his cushion while maintaining rudder forces!)


Asymmetric rollout. The lower the IAS when selecting GI the better. If possible choose runway to give any crosswind component from the deadside to help negate any induced swing or yaw on selecting GI. During training I wouldn’t let them do this and would choose which engine to shut down to give crosswind on worst side in order to demo that it was no problem if you allowed IAS to reduce before selecting GI. Just look well ahead then GI and use rudder to keep straight. Easy to maintain centreline every time. Abort with an engine shutdown same applied, selecting GI, adverse crosswind, outboard shutdown - look well ahead and use controls in the natural sense to maintain straight. fairly rapid rudder input and a large aileron input. Just don't rush to get GI, pause, look, select.


Crosswind landing - the technique was to approach and land using a wing down technique to counteract crosswind. In thousands of hours I never managed this very well. Wind speed and direction changed during the approach and it didn’t seem natural. Crabbed approach, look well ahead at flare, push the nose straight at flare and apply wing down to keep straight- greasers followed. (Probably had best landings with large crosswinds or asymmetric. Doesn't say much for me but in Falklands my Co-pilot was called Bambi - as he was the best friend of Thumper!!!! We all have bad spells - but 4 months of it!!!!!! Didn't help when crew were already giggling on the approach)


Tac landings - no problem if flown correctly. Some guys would try to flare too early giving IAS reduction and a bit too much vertical vector at touchdown. it was effectively an assault landing. Fly all the way to touchdown with just a small check back before touchdown.


Close formation for flypasts. Well coordinated controls helped along with instant power response. I found if on left, flying from LHS easier although looking cross cockpit and if on right flying RHS easier. Less tiring both ways. Turn radius as No. 2 or 3 quite a bit different from lead. if on outside of turn easy to drop back at start of turn and then have to get back into position. If at start of turn you squeezed UP slightly if on outside or DOWN slightly if on inside it helped maintain position. (Remember one flypast at Lye when on the run-in, No.4 DG, OC 30 called "4 out, emergency engine shut down" Leader called, "OK, see you on the ground" N0.4 called "It's ok, back in". Cool, squeezed back, shut it down then got back into position on 3.

[Dougie M]

Brilliant R4


http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/345afca2-8d17-4be4-b7eb-dad08cb339ad_zpsnixypowj.jpg

[bingofuel]

Thanks R4H
A great insight and some interesting comments,
BF

[ksimboy]

Dougie, lovely photo of 206, made an old git smile. Thank you!

[aeroid]

Coff, being a bear of little brain I,ve forgotten how to upload photos, help....

[CoffmanStarter]

Aeroid ... Check PM's :ok:

[chickenlover]

Not trying to out do you Dougie But I luckily have the negatives - if you want a print/decent digital copy let me know.
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp98/Fryboy47/img426_zpsf42e1d3a.jpg

[Brian W May]

Wonderful . . . double the bank limit . . .

Operationally, it goes with the territory, otherwise . . . sorry, a no no.

Shows that 'official blind eyes' occur all the time

Yeah, I know, I'm just a party-pooper but nobody was left with a structural booby trap on an aircraft I was operating.

On Purple Helmet, we ended up with 100˚ bank at para drop speed and all engines at 22,000"lb torque plus (hit wake turbulence of a/c in front which had lined up on equipment DZ instead of personnel one).

It went in the F700.

[CoffmanStarter]

I almost mistook that manoeuvre for a Stall Turn !!!

[aeroid]

Coff, ignore my last post, I've found the instructions that you sent.

[CoffmanStarter]

OK ... But happy to help if needed :ok:

[Dougie M]

206
Thanks Chickenlover. Mine was a dodgy scan from a print I had which needed a glowing endorsement concealing.


Brian. That sort of manoeuvre at drop speed and with overtorqued engines needed much more robust rectification after landing than 700 action. If it's done properly it's stressless.

[Brian W May]

'if it's done properly' yep, 1 g all the way round. I'm aware of basic aerodynamics. I don't mean that to sound 'sharp'.

I presume Lockheed too were aware of the same. It was them that set the 45 bank limit with 50 flap, not me.

Still Dougie, you're alive and so am I and the aircraft are probably frying pans so perhaps we'll just have to agree to differ.

I was appalled to watch the A400 working up for Farnborough. Distinct advantages to being replaced by computers . . . . similar vein.

[smujsmith]

R4,

Thanks for that post, I may well have posed the question of the experts who flew the aircrafts opinion. I reckon I understand somewhat more than a mere Airframe bloke should now. ISTR having a discussion with you once about loss of hydraulics, flying controls etc. If my memory serves the discussion revolved around the use of dissimilar engine torques. Perhaps best forgotten :rolleyes:

Good post though.

Doug, that shot from chickenlover is a great wallpaper for your mobile, assuming you have one :eek:

Smudge :ok:

[R4H]

Tried to make some diagrams but they didn't paste.


To clarify a few bits on angle of bank. I don’t know how to get some scientific / mathematical notations into this post so will make up some of my own.


Angle of bank (AOB) doesn’t in itself place any stress on the aircraft. G (G) does. As a simplified explanation imagine that the wings are trying to clap above the aircraft but we fasten the wings such that they can’t do that. The wings try to move up but can’t and the fuselage lifts under the wings. In level flight Lift (L)= Weight (W) and the load factor G = 1. In order to maintain level flight as AOB is applied the vertical factor of the L vector will be < W which always acts vertically therefore L has to be increased to ensure that the vertical factor of L will be = W. 60 AOB needs 2G for level flight.
Up to 60 AOB the slope or curve of G required for level flight is quite shallow but once we get beyond 60 AOB the curve, and therefore G, increases quite markedly.
The formula is cosAOB = 1/G so if max allowed G is 2.5 cosAOB = 1/2.5 and then for max G in level flight maxAOB = 66.5 degrees. Lockheed placed a G limit on aircraft then an artificial AOB limit of 60 AOB ensuring max G required for level flight is 2G and aircraft doesn’t need to be overstressed to maintain level flight.
You will notice that level flight keeps being mentioned. This is the only parameter used for AOB and G fatigue calculations. If you don’t want to maintain level you can bank to any angle, pull any G less than 2G and descend actally applying less stress on aircraft than doing a 60AOB level turn. (AOB and G required for level flight is completely independent of weight or speed so applies to all aircraft at all speeds)
Lockheed set an AOB limit and a limit is a limit but exceeding that limit at less than the aircraft G limit isn’t in itself placing undue or extra stress on the aircraft (assuming that rudder input is co-ordinated to balance turn).

[R4H]

Smudje. Only done in Sim. Loss of all hydraulics to flying controls needed the combined and co-ordinated input and strength of both pilots to control the aircraft. I would look for completely calm or no w-wind runway and spend all day setting up about a 20 mile final approach and cross all fingers and toes. Asymmetric power inputs were too slow to cause a reaction and it was too easy to lose it!!!!!

[Brian W May]

Angle of bank (AOB) doesn’t in itself place any stress on the aircraft. G (G) does. As a simplified explanation imagine that the wings are trying to clap above the aircraft but we fasten the wings such that they can’t do that. The wings try to move up but can’t and the fuselage lifts under the wings. In level flight Lift (L)= Weight (W) and the load factor G = 1. In order to maintain level flight as AOB is applied the vertical factor of the L vector will be < W which always acts vertically therefore L has to be increased to ensure that the vertical factor of L will be = W. 60 AOB needs 2G for level flight.
Up to 60 AOB the slope or curve of G required for level flight is quite shallow but once we get beyond 60 AOB the curve, and therefore G, increases quite markedly.
The formula is cosAOB = 1/G so if max allowed G is 2.5 cosAOB = 1/2.5 and then for max G in level flight maxAOB = 66.5 degrees. Lockheed placed a G limit on aircraft then an artificial AOB limit of 60 AOB ensuring max G required for level flight is 2G and aircraft doesn’t need to be overstressed to maintain level flight.
You will notice that level flight keeps being mentioned. This is the only parameter used for AOB and G fatigue calculations. If you don’t want to maintain level you can bank to any angle, pull any G less than 2G and descend actally applying less stress on aircraft than doing a 60AOB level turn. (AOB and G required for level flight is completely independent of weight or speed so applies to all aircraft at all speeds)
Lockheed set an AOB limit and a limit is a limit but exceeding that limit at less than the aircraft G limit isn’t in itself placing undue or extra stress on the aircraft (assuming that rudder input is co-ordinated to balance turn).

Thanks R4H, not being COMPLETELY narcissistic, I appreciate you've done that for everyone and reiterate that I am aware of the aerodynamics . . .

My point remains that the clever folks at Lockheed knew that when they set the limits. Your point in the last line is, for me, the clincher. How many times did you see the ball perfectly in the middle on a high AOB manoeuvre? (Honestly).

[R4H]

One of the problems we had was losing NVG sorties because of checks required after a supposed overstress during the day sortie, typically Fighter Evasion. The g meter wouldn't show an overstress but the fatigue meter would have clicked a count below an overstress and so an overstress had to be assumed and checks carried out. As the g meter was all the pilot had to go on, and the difference between g meter and fatigue meter wasn't consistent between aircraft, I suggested that I took each SF frame on a quick sortie, squeezed into a turn until g limit was reached on g meter or fatigue meter showed a count. We could then mark g meter with a limit line, reducing the number of overstresses and / or wasted manhours checking for something that might not have happened, and saving sortie cancellations.
Refused. As I would be flying to an deliberate overstress it wasn't allowed. Possibly 1 count per frame as opposed to possibly several with uncalibrated g meter but common sense wasn't allowed.

[WIDN62]

I trust that R4H was not looking at the ball whilst conducting such manoeuvres!

[bingofuel]

Maybe there was a tuft of wool stuck on the windscreen at his eye height, of course it might need calibrating for side by side seating.

[CoffmanStarter]

Given the above topic of conversation ... this makes interesting reading :eek:

https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?itemid=64802

Image Credit : Flight Global

While being operated at roughly 15,000ft, “the aircraft exceeded the targeted angle of sideslip until it departed controlled flight,” the report states. It “momentarily inverted, before being recovered after losing approximately 5,000ft of altitude.”

USAF AC-130J Ghostrider Incident April 2015 (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ghostrider-gunship-scrapped-after-inverted-flight-sc-419208/?sfid=701w0000000uP3H&cmpid=SOC%7CTwitter%7CFlightglobal%7Csf15371082&CMPID=sf15371082)

Coff.

[R4H]

Reading he bits on Ghostrider it would seem his rudder inputs led to finstall. The fin is just a wing (quite a big wing) on its side and all aerodynamics apply. Once in finstall IIRC it could be recovered but at extremes the rudder could end up blanked and recovery virtually impossible.
Finstall was never mentioned during my time on the aircraft but I'm sure there is mention of it in Aircrew Manual. Having had the guy mishandle the Tac T/O EFATO in the sim I had a play and the sim reacted as advertised. No time to play with recovery actions as sim then exceeded movement limits and exercise ended.

[Brian W May]

The only time we mentioned Finstall was double asymmetric on the OCU. We then mentioned the drill IIRC

Pull the Flap Control c/b
Select 20 % Flap to get the high Rudder Boost pressure, apply and maintain at least 5˚bank towards the live engines.

Not necessarily in that exact order. I quit the OCU in 1982 so memory is not as sharp as it was.

Yep, the point of loss of control was when the sideslip vector masked the rudder.

[Bengerman]

The discussion re AOB limits is as revealing as it is interesting.
I certainly remember flying with pilots who would react like a wounded elephant if airspeed was a knot or two above the limiting extension speed and the other pilot requested "Gear Down" but the same pilot would think nothing of exceeding the AOB limit at low level.
Why would such an attitude exist?
Are limits not limits? Are they there only for the guidance of (apparently!) wise men, or are they there for a reason?
I was always very suspicious of a pilot who selected which limits he deemed to be worthy of his attention and others which he happily ignored!

[mr ripley]

When I first got to fly Albert, it wasn't the handling that bothered me but slotting into a crew and hearing all those voices on the intercom. I found the a/c was good in pitch but more sluggish in roll, needing rudder to prevent adverse aileron yaw when manoeuvring tactically.
4 months with 1312 Flt really taught me to fly the aircraft and 'perfected' the wing down technique when landing with a max crosswind.
Instrument flying was not ideal but perfectly hackable, I seem to remember that the Hdg bug and Flight directors were inaccurate.
3 engine work was fine but 2 engine work seemed perverse, satisfying of course, but perhaps something for the sim.
Formation and AAR Rx was good fun, challenging at times, but was proper polling for a change. The change of technique to lock the ailerons and use the rudders to manoeuvre in close line astern was well taught and was easy to grasp.
Strip work with or without NVGs was flying the numbers and a good teamwork exercise.
Overall it was a remarkable aircraft, with mostly fantastic people, that I was lucky to fly in so many roles: Route, AAR, SAR, MRR, TS/TacAT, to marvellous and not so marvellous places.

AOB: Once, after a 500 ft run and break with max (but no more) AOB, I was bollocked by some Senior Nav in the OM for being low and having too much bank, because that is what he 'saw' from the ground!

[smujsmith]

Mr Ripley, et al,

That's some great input to handling Albert, which few of us have ever had the chance to do. For some, like myself, a limited experience as a glider pilot etc meant I had opinion, though no grounds for judgement on what was happening to the aircraft I was in. I really believe that whilst many, FJ etc pilots, will talk of "trash haulers" etc, that comment is mainly based on ignorance of the different, yet equally challenging roles Albert has played throughout a long career with the RAF. I can only equate to a lot of the effort to "operate" Albert with a quick mention of doing an hours fighter affil with A* H****n in the LH seat. I hung out of the LH para door that day, and was about as much use as an ashtray equipped motorcycle, the front end crew to a man left the aircraft on shutdown with sweat drenched clothing. No, not the Gulf, Norway in February. It's not all AA and ACC. I knew you drivers airframe knew something:rolleyes: thanks all for bringing me home every time !

Smudge :ok:

[R4H]

Forgot about the joys of AAR. Only went behind VC10 and Victor. Wash behind the Victor could lead to you overcompensating with roll. As mentioned use of small rudder inputs was easier to correct. If you just relaxed on all the controls the wash would anchor you nicely in position.
AARI from RHS was an interesting exercise. Getting in then leaning far forward in the seat, hunched over the controls, head bent up, staring at the basket while talking through the exercise when almost all you could see was the basket.
Three long haul AARs. Day AAR in Mediterranean from UK then on to Oman, night AAR from UK south of Azores then on to Guyana, day AAR from UK, south of Nova Scotia then on to boat drop off South Carolina. Last one should have been a landing in Nassau but ended up diverting into Charleston.

[smujsmith]

Obviously an IFR devotee R4, here's a view from the bubble

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/250d1f0db2efadd1366ae45e48dd90cc_zpsm7lrdrpo.jpg

South Atlantic with a proper tanker :eek:

Smudge :ok:

[condor17]

R4H ,
Thank you for your C130 handling descriptions , a good read . Having only see Albert flying from outside ; it’s good to be able to compare the handling qualities with a UK built 23 tonne T/prop . Much lighter I know , but similarities there are .
Your x-wind explanations hit a chord . Did the relatively narrow u/c track make much difference ? We had a wide track and a low wing , and in the Hebs and Northern Isles preferred a kick off drift method , keeping if possible the into wind wing down . But ‘horses for courses’ .

‘‘’Doesn't say much for me but in Falklands my Co-pilot was called Bambi - as he was the best friend of Thumper!!!! We all have bad spells - but 4 months of it!!!!!! Didn't help when crew were already giggling on the approach) ‘’’ .

‘Fraid I strongly disagree with your self assessment sir . ‘’ Thumper ‘’ was hard earned and should be proudly worn . Not to mention excellent leadership and superb CRM . ‘’Crew giggling on the app’’. …… good crew comms , shallow rank gradient , and an happy team , follow you anywhere …. Not to mention stressing you up nicely !
How many times with Cavok , 10kts down the strip , de-stressed …. Thump .
Howling x-wind , rain , low cloud , min fuel , dark night , wipers slapping time , alternate out , stressed … Perfection !

Formation tales appreciated . Were you a Green Barrow ? Any tale welcomed , having seen them at ‘Music in the dark‘ at Middle Wallop , quite a sight and sound from the ground . 4 Ks in close formation pirouetting to music , against a summer sunset with dramatic cloudscape , at a venue with little ambient light pollution . Thank you .

Rgds condor .

P.S. forgot to ask was the Ks normal G limit only 2.5 ?

[Jackw106]

This video taken by the OC 59 Cdo RE. Falklands 1982 last part is a C130 landing at Stanley airport after the runway was repaired

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37K_UrlzK4g#t=1269

[WIDN62]

The maximum G is 3, but 2.5 with flaps at 50%. These limits are reduced with some fuel/payload combinations.

[smujsmith]

Condor 17, how prescient of you. ISTR that R4H was indeed one of that fabulous Royal Air Force premier formation team The Green Barrows. I'm damn sure I enjoyed informing SWMBO at a Lyneham families day, that the Green 4 ? Captain was someone I had had the pleasure of accompanying "down route"! Now, have we done the Greens yet chaps ? As Condor suggests, could be some interesting tales.

Smudge :ok:

[aeroid]

Excuse my ignorance but who/what, is/was The Greens

[OmegaV6]

Aeroid

"The Green Barrows" - Hercules display formation, 4 Hercules often led by the inimitable and never forgotten S** V**** ... a Gentleman of the first degree :)

[R4H]

Often flew with SV on Barrows. I flew Co and concentrated on visual nav and positioning while he concentrated on the handling. A gent to fly with. Buck House flypast, wx dreadful. Singleton snake climbs then to Manston. Wx marginal and he called it off - good call. Wg Cdr PBUH was auth and flew as pax in one of the ac. Back at Lye he commented that he was surprised we hadn't gone for it!!!!!!!!! He couldn't say anything at the time as we were lead and shouldn't have said anything afterwards.

On recovery to Lye Heathrow offered us the chance to fly down runway as 4 ship - PBUH piped up from back that it wasn't briefed and we shouldn't do it - what a chance missed!!!!

For a practice before the event we did a singleton flythrough a week earlier. Wx was just ok so with SV flying I was map reading over London with 50,000 maps. Canary Wharf was on the run and there was a LO there to keep residents informed. London ATC informed a police heli that we were running in as he was in the area and he said he would hold low. After passing his comment to ATC was that if he had known how low we would be we could have done his job for him!!!!

[aeroid]

For the youngsters amongst you I believe that The Barrows flew their first practice on the 24th March 1979. We then flew 4 further shows on the 18th, 22nd, 26th and 27th April. I think that HCS and HTS provided 2 crews but I don't know about the rest. On the practice I was RHS to OC HCS, formerly my Co-p in Changi and the future Station Commander Lyneham. (Where did I go wrong...answers on a post card to...) Three of the flights involved a flypast at a passing out parade somewhere, the Freedom of the City of Swindon and the visit of HRH Princess Anne on her annual visit to Lyneham as the Commodore? of the station. I don't recall seeing them after that

[aeroid]

I lied. The "team" reappears in my log book on the 14th/16th/24th/26th/28th/29thApril 1980, the 28th was the HRH flypast. This time was RHS to M**e All***t on all 5

[R4H]

I was a Co on 30 and we flew various flypasts with each sqn providing a crew. I think Barrows was generally flown by crews from OCU, HTS, HCS etc.

[smujsmith]

R4 and Aeroid,

I'm sure that I watched an impressive display at the families day, circa 87/88 given by a four ship, introduced as The Green Barrows. Was that an attempt to revive the team, or did they carry on beyond the 70s ? I know that I was so impressed that I immediately abandoned by former trade and applied to become a GE, only to find that the Barrows were not an international team, and the visions I had of four ship winter dets to Barbados for "work ups" was not to be. Ahh well, GW1 almost made up for that.:eek:

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000083A_zps7eb14903.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000083A_zps7eb14903.jpg.html)
Aeroid,
I suspect your climb up the greasy pole to stardom may have been inhibited by your individual take on the correct way to wear one's hat ! I present the above picture in evidence m'lud !

[aeroid]

Not guilty M'lud, I was only following orders!

[R4H]

For a flypast at Lye we went out over Bristol Channel to get some practice before flypast. Held off until time to run in. Called Lye on run in to be told to hold off as zone was closed by NOTAM! The zone was closed for us to flypast! Sharp or what?

[wub]

I was stationed at Lyneham and flew with Bannerdown G C at Hullavington. We used to have to call Lyneham ATC under certain circumstances. One day I called them to say I was descending through 1500 feet to land and was told "negative, maintain present altitude".

[Dougie M]

I only participated once in the famous formation when H****d E*e needed a substitute. The South Side weren't often included. The best bit was the "Families Day Break"




http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/a0eaf367-eca2-4889-a697-f34463d690ee_zps4xyvvkwg.jpg

[smujsmith]

Great photo there Doug, that has to be the formation I watched at a families day in the past. I assumed that it was the premier formation team, the Green Barrows, but it looks like they were the stations fly past experts. Thanks for posting this one though, superb.

Smudge :ok:

[sycamore]

What year was that photo,Doug...?

[Dougie M]

Sycamore.
Sorry mate, that's not my photo but the formation break was standard 10 years after the barrows were rampant

[DeanoP]

Dante's Inferno! Fire and Ice

Reconnaissance of S. Sandwich Islands on 30 May 1990 in XV204. Flew southeast from MPA for about 1100nm to Thule, and Bellingshausen islands and then followed the chain of islands up to Zavordoski island and then on to S. Georgia. Had to fly low to maintain VFR, overwhelming scenery tracking below the cloud with icebergs and many active volcanoes searching for any Argentinian landings. 7 Harness packs dropped at Grytviken at the end of the recce. 10hrs flight. Very nice to be in a tanker a/c and have stacks of fuel for a diversion to Rio de Janeiro if Mount Pleasant Wx closed in and became unusable.
(Photos not in geographical order necessarily)



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1751x1133/img001_2_60158d30f366eb35ce6cab0c9db5c7e5cb5c52df.jpeghttps://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1760x1116/img002_51e5bac83cff46df32bdbe8754ad11eb8bdf4465.jpeg


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1737x1121/img001_66f206edf05cb7473a5251cdbfda24dc9aeed6eb.jpeg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1763x1128/img010_copy_e186a80aac8a8599349aa53c874bd3461043ce4d.jpeg


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1745x1123/img010_d0c3337924496e66c55c0c168f05b8efd7a01215.jpeg


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1748x1107/img011_3e7f207af176480f0cee3fd14a57425b83d86b27.jpeg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1756x1130/img001_2__337ccb7b97fef842c7a4ae77fceb7a8d9e5c029a.jpeghttps ://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1752x1137/img010_copy_2_6686bbead8025d73596010135cc82d06eaf06755.jpeg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1753x1092/img003_c4f91557ed099308e32464dd37cb1cb164a8bfa0.jpeg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1762x1120/img002_1__469d20f413ac173ad4060fcb0cdbc946deb578f7.jpeg

Zavodovski Island and active volcano
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1759x1106/img002_2__72f785fa59c7b937843952a2748b08c66252bbb4.jpeg

Zavodovski Island and active volcano
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1761x1133/img001_4__f6c7adf59edb974983b6279a3a63f7e279708877.jpeg

Zavodovski Island and active volcano
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1755x1112/img001_3__7bcce7722385afe890f50a40df32ff9fcea97bb9.jpeg

Entrance to Cumberland Bay and Grytviken harbour South Georgia (below)

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1766x1128/img001_5__0317851fbf32241969e24db44d51c7a480854cc1.jpeg



Grytviken harbour showing wall of rock necessitating a sharp turn left after the supply drop

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1746x1123/img002_3__0b9294b1a9aad0eb3f0e1e989b2bd65877fd9a28.jpeg

[CoffmanStarter]

Great pics Dean ... Thanks for posting :ok:

Any stories connected with those trips you could share ;)


PS. We are fast approaching the 600,000 Thread Hit Mark and 4,000 contributions ... And we've been on the Mil Front Page since April 2014 ... That's got to say something about the affection everyone holds for RAF Albert and the times shared with him on his wide and varied travels :D

Long may it continue ...

[ksimboy]

Recall my crews adventure to South Georgia, the usual full of all the folk who had helped the crew out as a thank you. Net up at ramp hinge, Despatcher at the edge of the armp with Harness packs ready as we did the dummy run to get a handle on the drop. Rotor off the glacier sent Albert into slight reverse, call from eng of "overtorque all 4" , I look at scenes of carnage in front of net, then pull 2 bemused AD chaps back in to the aircraft. They hadnt let go of HPs as no one had said "green on"!! Closed ramp and door then started tidying vomit, camera parts et all from the freight bay. We didnt complete the drop that day but did get specatcular views of the icebergs on the way home.

[Wander00]

All set to fly on a S Georgia run early 86, but had to butt out as the MPA camp heating system failed (AGAIN, so guess it must have been April rather than earlier) so had to stay behind and liaise with PSA on the fix. Very disappointed at missing that experience

[R4H]

South Sandwich then to South Georgia for 9xHP drops and back to Falklands 10:50 day. Very impressive to see South Sandwich islands sticking out of ocean in middle of nowhere and imagining the mountains beneath.

Did SAR escort to South Georgia. Someone needed casevac and RFA Black Rover was heading home and sent to a position such that Sea King could refuel on board then casevac. We escorted SK out to RFA, ran ahead to check wx then back to SK then to South Georgia, held off then escorted SK back to RFA, held off then escorted back to Falklands. 11:20 day/night. A very satisfying task and impressed by the planning effort by HQ guys and real admiration for SK guys on their efforts that day.

Most interesting trip of detachment was to Antarctica. Their ship had broken down and British Antarctic Survey Team had to get down there. Landed them at Teniente Marsh base on Antarctica. Had a walk around, exchanged plaques etc then back to Falklands.

[DeanoP]

After a successful drop at Grytviken we headed for Mount Pleasant at low level to look for wrecks in the fjords and sightsee. Very calm and clear conditions at the start but then hit by massive rotor turbulence, one giant hit! Our lovely ALM, Teri, became airborne in the freight bay and was thrown from FS245 to the top of the rear fuel tanks-luckily unhurt. Rapid application of power and soared out of trouble. Quite a dangerous place with the katabatic winds coming down the glaciers. Another lesson learnt.

[smujsmith]

R4H,

" interesting trip of detachment was to Antarctica. Their ship had broken down and British Antarctic Survey Team had to get down there. Landed them at Teniente Marsh base on Antarctica. Had a walk around, exchanged plaques etc then back to Falklands."

Very early on in this threads proceedings there was some discussion of most Northerly and Southerly destinations for Albert. Not sure if anyone actually claimed Antarctica, so you may have just got the most southerly claim in.

Smudge :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Post #262 ...

So RAF Albert's most Northerly (Wheels On) trip has been Thule AB Greenland @ 76°31'N and the most Southerly (Wheels On) Williams Field Antarctica @ 77°52'S. Which now begs the question ... Has RAF Albert made 90°N or 90°S whilst airborne ? I bet the probability is quite high ... but let's see

Coff ...

[DeanoP]

Marvellous artwork, very evocative. Anyone know who drew it?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1481/img010_0b185a69d3d405dc6766d6e55fe027a5b4011f44.jpeg

1312 Flight personnel May 1990 with Crew Nos: 75, 76,77. Albert dispersal Mount Pleasant

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1408/img002_438143394cfe4e0825f776027984f2627dcb234b.jpeg


Flying suit badge.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1071x1044/img005_3ab505de2377e0ee6760803a34c11c6feb8ef59e.jpeg


'Bluey' stamp
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/717x583/img005_1__a11c0f82b67a32a6af09ba2bf2750b4bd394f0ee.jpeg

[smujsmith]

Thanks for that Coff, now we need a Nav to decide which is the most southerly of the two bases. Now, Where's DougieM when you need him ?

Smudge :ok:

[ksimboy]

Ooh, both Teri and Deano look really young there lol.

[Checks Complete]

Did a trip July 1983 XV 183 Elmendorf-Bardufoss via North Pole. Not quite sure whether we went exactly over the North Pole, pre SCNS, Omega only Gyro Nav and single line mpp's but it was pretty close.

[Dougie M]

R4's trip to Teniente Marsh (no relation) was 62deg South. I also did the Elmendorf (62 N) - Bardufoss (69 N) gyro leg after an exercise in Alaska. I was likewise unsure we went directly over the pole but as near as. There was no "needle swing" overhead because the mag. pole is 300 miles away and your compass heading on gyro is whatever you want it to be. I get lost with Tom Tom now.

[CoffmanStarter]

And you were flying upside-down too Dougie ;)

[R4H]

Tanker plus F4s. Herc looks like those drawn by Frank Cooper.

[R4H]

A black art as far as I as a driver was concerned. Ac locked to heading bug, bug nowhere near top of HSI. Nav changing grids! Too confusing as a compass was put to mag then compass swung to new grid etc - go for a walk in freight bay then come back when all was sorted. Don't give me a heading to fly just tell me so many degrees to right or left. Did approaches into Resolute Bay and Hall Beach with compasses on all sorts of settings, heading bug somewhere around the 8 o'clock position on HSI and my track line coming in from behind ac symbol. approach plates on True North. 25 or so degrees West degrees of deviation! Night. Nav chuckling. Thank heavens for ADF/NDB pointing towards the field as otherwise I had no way to tell which direction I was pointing or which way to turn.

[CoffmanStarter]

R4H ...

If you don't mind ... I'd like to ask our Albert Navigators to explain a little of the mysteries you mention ;)

I'm genuinely interested (albeit a slight bit of thread drift ... pun fully intended there) ... please note bog standard Northern Hemisphere Rhumb Line Pilot Navigation is the limit of my experience :8

Cheers ...

Coff.

[smujsmith]

Oh Coff, you are indeed a brave bloke. Nav speak is simply beyond human capacity sir. That's why they were allowed to drive the HSI for the pilots to follow.

Smudge :ok:

[DeanoP]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1780x1126/img001_0d0340ee4fabd7455666b32ced85499897e3a166.jpeg
Luckily my crew's Albert is on the right going home. One month to go!! It was a bit depressing moving your a/c homewards a week at a time.

[DeanoP]

Tasked to simulate an Argentinian Herk landing at Mount Pleasant to exercise the airfield defence teams. Just a taxy around to the runway and then lying down in the snow and then strip searched, apart from Eva Peron. Not really, it was all very gentle and passed away a wet, windy and cold afternoon.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1175x1718/img001_1__2f65a31d7c9660b0627870c04ad93b2035ac1095.jpeg
Maestro de Carga 'Eva Peron' bottom left. (Teri Davis)

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1759x1150/img001_2_aec8747900f64a0bc0788c091b7a6c888ddacb02.jpeg
Copiloto y Ingeniero 'Diego Maradona'(Paul Margetts y Mick Boulton)


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1758x1125/img003_7f7cfca46c4323c4ebc3ede459ccea69688029f2.jpeg
Vasco 'Gerneral Galtieri' (DeanoP)


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1749x1121/img011_18a964da6f5349fc530b5d80521cf0737968bb3b.jpeg
El Capitano 'Ossie Ardiles' (John Ford)

[ancientaviator62]

Dean,
wonderful pics . You all looked much better in your make up ! When were all your pics taken ?

[smujsmith]

AA62, pretty standard crew grooming circa 80/90s surely ?, they look like most of the crews I went down route with. Except for R4H who not only grew his own moustache, but often proffered a cigarette to a lowly "hanger on". No disrespect meant gentlemen, a fine sight you all make.

On the subject of Albert Cartoons, I offer this as yet another example;
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/8bf77bc14c97d881f118dcba2aa6b35c_zpsqz61lhby.jpg
This was the result of yet another example of Alberts capacity to enable the RAF to continue operations in awkward times.

Smudge :ok:

[R4H]

Cope Thunder, Fairbanks, Alaska. Crew decided to have a moustache growing competition. I was exempt as I already had one. Can't remember the prize - probably a slab. They gradually gained some form of darkening of the top lip all except Loadie, Jimmy O, who had a faint smattering of bumfluff. One by one they grew tired of the growth and itches and shaved them off, all except Loadie who won!!!!
On one Det, and with copious amounts of rum having been quaffed, I agreed to shave moustache off for a considerable crew cash gift to a charity collection, only to forget that we had been in the sun for about a month! Result, a tanned face and a white top lip!!!!!!

[smujsmith]

Just a quick question, not sure if it's been discussed before. If so I apologise for repeating. I was reading another thread where some are questioning the naming of the A400M aircraft. I recall that on posting to Akrotiri in March 73, 70 Sqdn had a mix of Argosy and Hercules, I'm sure they all carried individual names, the Alberts names like Heracles, Hyperion etc. Anyone have any info on what names were used and whether any other operating squadrons used names on Albert. Also, I assume 70 stopped the practice when the aircraft were centralised at Lyneham.

Smudge :ok:

[aeroid]

Sorry to change the subject but in todays TIMES, page 70 there is an obit for Major Richard Clifford. Read down to para 4 and there is the briefest of mentions of a little op involving S/L George Bain and crew in 1972 dropping some bomb disposal experts to the QE 2 in mid atlantic. Anyone know the rest of the crew? Was that GB the instructor from Thorney?

[DeanoP]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/300x362/qe2_cartoon_3513156e_d55303313d0c2e984bcca11a7ae880d58115631 0.jpeg
Found this from the QE2 story. Adds a bit more meat to Aeroid's info. I think that you are right about George Bain (ex TI instructor). Trawling my memory cells for the Nav's name.

'Major Richard Clifford of the Royal Marines, who has died aged 69, was a Special Boats Service officer who parachuted into the sea after a bomb-scare in Queen Elizabeth 2.
On the morning of May 18 1972 Clifford was the officer commanding 2nd Special Boat Section when he was told to prepare two men to parachute into the sea. No name or location was given and Clifford decided go himself taking Corporal Tom Jones as his number two. They flew by helicopter from Poole to Lyneham to meet the rest of their team, ammunition technical officer Captain Robert Williams and SAS Sergeant Cliff Oliver.
Williams had never jumped before and Clifford had brought spare equipment for him. By early afternoon they were airborne in a Hercules transport aircraft and 15 minutes into the flight their mission was revealed to them: to locate and defuse several bombs feared to be hidden and set to go off in a matter of hours aboard Queen Elizabeth 2, the world’s best-known trans-Atlantic liner.
As their aircraft was buffeted in turbulent weather, Williams, who was violently sick, was briefed by Clifford on what to do. Jones and Oliver would drop into the sea with the bulk of the equipment, while Clifford would jump with Williams and ensure that he did not drown when they hit the water. Once over QE2 they found every parameter for parachuting into the sea was out of limits. They could not see the ship at 1000 ft range, the cloud base was 300 to 400 ft, the wind was blowing at more than 20 knots, and there were 5 ft waves. The pilot agreed to fly the Hercules in low so he could sight QE2, then open the throttles and climb very steeply through the cloud to a dropping height. It would be difficult and dangerous, but the Special Forces men agreed to jump “blind” into the ocean.
They hit the water hard, but despite the heavy swell they were quickly picked up by one of QE2’s boats. Meanwhile, aboard QE2, her master, Captain William Law, had announced the bomb threat to the astonished passengers and told them a British bomb disposal team had arrived.
Cartoon showing Special Forces parachuting into the sea next to QE2
Cartoon showing Special Forces parachuting into the sea next to QE2
Williams now took charge, but before the team started work, Clifford presented Law with a copy of The Daily Telegraph which he had stuffed inside his drysuit. Three suspicious suitcases, which Law’s crew had found, were examined and one was blown open, but they contained only books and dirty laundry.
The FBI advised the full evacuation of QE2 during a stop at Cherbourg but the Cunard company and the ship’s master were so satisfied with the work of the Special Forces that it was decided to continue the voyage to Southampton. Later the threat was found to have been a hoax.
All four men were awarded the Queen’s Commendation for their courage and determination in the face of unusual and hazardous conditions, and the incident inspired the film Juggernaut (1974), starring Richard Harris and Omar Sharif.
Richard Cormac Clifford was born on May 19 1946 in East Africa, where his father was in the Colonial Service, and educated at Stowe. He was commissioned into the Royal Marines in 1966.
His first appointment was as a rifle troop commander in 40 Commando during Confrontation in Borneo, and he then passed the gruelling test to join the Special Forces in 1968. In 1969-71 he served at HMS Jufair in Bahrain and in the Amphibious Training Unit – he commanded 3rd Special Boat Detachment. He also helped to train members of the Iranian armed forces in Special Forces work. In 1971 Clifford commanded an SBS unit based on Gibraltar.
He was a company commander in 42 Commando in Northern Ireland in 1975, and for the next twenty years Clifford served almost continuously in the SBS'.

[Harry Lime]

Flt. Lt Paddy Quaid was the Air Eng on the drop. A few months later he did my Final Handling Check at Topcliffe and paved the way for my future career in the Air/Flt Engineer world. My RAF career was simply as Aircraft Apprentice at Locking in 103rd Entry, a couple of ground postings before going to Topcliffe for Air Eng training. Was on 47 Sqn from '73 to '77 before leaving to join BA on the 747 Fleet. Twenty three very happy years later I retired and now reside in Spain.

During my service with the RAF there were no serious wars as such, so posting here on this thread in the company with some brave souls I recognise (I think), I feel a bit of a 'Flying club ' type. My one exciting moment was when landing at Aldergrove one dark and dirty morning, - were they ever any different, we were greeted with "Check the aeroplane for bullet holes. There are reports they were firing at you as you came over the hedge." Of course being the Air Eng my job was to crawl on my back under the low slung belly of the beast in "The early morning rain", whilst greater mortals than I scanned the wings and empanage replete with brollies. I tell you it's true what they say, War is Hell!

One other story I can recall was being told somewhere along the way that if we completed twenty eight landings at Salalah we would be given the GSM with Dhofar clasp. After I had done twenty five landings the rebels gave up and I left with a clean breast!

To all and any contributors/readers, you may remember me as the Irish Eng from long ago. Looking at the photo of the 'Rhodesia' crew, I recognise four of the five and remember good times with all of you , and more.

[CoffmanStarter]

Welcome Harry ... Good to have you contribute ... If you have any pics you'd like to share, I'll gladly help ... Just PM me :ok:

[smujsmith]

I just found this, I suspect circa 74 during the evacuation of British passport holders. 211 carried the name "Homer" I believe. Anyone any more info ? I think 70s Wheelbarrows had names starting with E ?

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/253287e4ff13bffc4e552e385a1ca64b_zpsegbcvysd.jpg
Credit Unknown, wiki sourced.

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

I have related in an earlier post of my experience of filming 'Juggernaut' with the Maxim Gorky. The WX for the real thing sounds very similar to our experience during the filming.
As for the Cyprus evacuation during the Turkish invasion I was told we had evacuated over 20 different nationalities. Certainly the trips I did contained a good mix.

[smujsmith]

AA62,

Were you there ? Can you remember Heracles, Hyperion, Homer etc ? I was on the ground at the time, and remember waving my wife off back home in a VC10, sadly she was not considered good enough for an Albert ride home. We made up for it later on a Lyneham families day. Does anyone know why 70 named their aircraft in Cyprus ?

Smudge :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
I was not stationed in Cyprus but was involved in the holidaymaker pullout operating from the UK. I recall being told that several Brits had refused to be flown home from Akrotiri on Albert. I assume they were put on a VC10. I would have left them.

[Wander00]

My older sons' cousins and their parents were among the holiday makers evacuated - when asked the following year what they wanted to do for their holiday, their reply was " Same again please, including the flight off the beach!"

[Dougie M]

It was indeed the practice of squadrons to name individual frames before centralised servicing. Britannias were named after constellations (envy?) and the Belfasts and Akrotiri hercs were named after Greek heroes and somesuch. A quaintly British notion.
What used to get my goat is having to arrive at a particularly "warry" base full of dust and flies with the slogan emblazoned along the side. "This aircraft has been adopted by the Mrs Miggins raffia class of Toothill Primary School."
Fortunately that embarrassment went with a change of C.R.O. Cuddly Hercs we were not!

[DCThumb]

Dean,

The cartoons were definitely Cooperman! When I was there, Terry Pitt (?) was the Eng controller and he drew some great cartoons of the crews. I also left my own mark on the wall of 'Albert Hall' when we were down to 1 Herc and 1 VC10 - does anyone have a photo of that?

I remember being on 24 with you when a visiting senior officer noticed your name badge and commented 'Thats an unusual name, I knew someone with that name many years ago in the marine branch'......

[OmegaV6]

Despite having many photos from the FI the only one with a cartoon in it is :

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/85356592/134%20-%20The%20Team.jpg

Smudge might cringe at this one, sorry we bent it just a tad ... captions are there as we had to do a load of photos during a pressure run so the "experts" in UK could work out the repair plan ...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/85356592/03%20-%200%20diff%20external%20view%20-%20in.jpg

[ksimboy]

Dougie, you were always cuddly weren't you?

[smujsmith]

Doug, you may have been happy to drop the names back then. Some were more than happy to apply new ones during GW1;

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/6ac5720dbb27585417df26814797df9e_zps558eef2f.jpg
Artist and photographer Unknown.

Thanks for answering my query re naming the aircraft, centralised servicing ended a lot of old practices, not always for the bad.

Omega, you did bend that one didn't you :eek:

Smudge :ok:

[DeanoP]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1227/pict0011_4__cd55840fbe81f60a569a897a59115232a207ca9d.jpeg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1525x1022/40_shackletons_in_line_astern_nov_1970__4703b6f599477b11b82d 893699858dcf3045fd0a.jpeg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1546x1022/37_shackletons_in_line_astern_nov_1970__1d8cc45b0d28cc4b017a 3ba51addbcc22b91e62a.jpeg


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1523x1022/36_shackleton_in_formation_nov_1970__64c2155cacddce6b13589d5 2e52787aa112b7e59.jpeg

[ancientaviator62]

Dean,
great pics again. Did you take them ? If so what were you doing so far aft with the ramp and door open ? Two Shacks with all four turning. Amazing !

[middlesbrough]

Rare photos of the Shackleton. I left 205 Sqn in 1968. en route to 204 San Ballykelly via. two months in Majunga. Happy Days!

[CoffmanStarter]

Brilliant pics Dean ... Thanks for sharing :D:ok:

[Dougie M]

Great photos Dean. All those rivets in close formation. Avoided MOTU. "Shackletons don't bother me"
Smuj
Some Nose Art was better than others and reflected the quality of the operators.




http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/e22070ff-d5e6-4f21-9ed8-553c6ae26b8a_zps2apfnctj.jpg

[DeanoP]

Bill,

Yes, I took all the photos. No real need for the nav as we were following the Shacks. I guess I was restrained by my long i/c lead. I can't remember but there must have been a harness.
Amazing 16 propellers contra-rotating.

[ancientaviator62]

Dean,
I always found it difficult to talk other crew members into venturing aft of 245 whenever any of the doors were open at the back. I would think you would have been on a harness especially as I note the a/c has roller laid on the ramp !

[smujsmith]

AA62,

Very true, rare indeed to see the "front end" aft of the galley :rolleyes:

Dean, great shots of some great aircraft. They were the days I bet !

Doug, There were quite a few with nose art during GW1. Any more in your nav bag ?

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/a8cb718cd6a3dd9936e562b74ead1b06_zps2056c802.jpg

This one wasn't quite finished at the time, the wording for the think bubble was later applied as "life's a beach" ISTR. Must have been after the recapture of Kuwait, taken at Bahrain, we had to clean the Windows every trip due to the oil fires.

Smudge :ok:

[sycamore]

`Smudge,while you are up there,don`t forget to polish the `speedtape` patches over the radome hinges...okay,Carry on ,Sgt...`

[smujsmith]

Sycamore,

Sgt ? Never managed that as a GE :rolleyes: I do remember the speed tape, there for good reasons I reckon. Would the date/time stamp on the photograph equate to post Kuwait recovery ?

Smudge :ok: