Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Misc. Forums > Airlines, Airports & Routes
Reload this Page >

Doncaster Sheffield-3

Airlines, Airports & Routes Topics about airports, routes and airline business.

Doncaster Sheffield-3

Old 28th Jul 2023, 21:00
  #1301 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 58
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pug
Ö..thatís on you, as is the burden of proofÖ.
Respectfully, if someone who appears to have had direct involvement with activity at DSA says they ĎKnowí then it would be courteous to listen.
G-FORZ is online now  
Old 28th Jul 2023, 21:26
  #1302 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 1,294
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by G-FORZ
Respectfully, if someone who appears to have had direct involvement with activity at DSA says they ĎKnowí then it would be courteous to listen.
Not when the overriding evidence is to the contrary. Thereís been plenty posted all over by people who have been involved with the airport that were incorrect in their assertions. So respectfully I beg to differ. I have also been privy to information in the past that blows a lot of the theories out of the water, I wouldnít post it and I donít expect people to believe that on face value, but thereís enough in the public domain already to comfortably draw a conclusion. ĎTrust me dudeí isnít a reasonable position to take, particularly when accusing a company of fraud. Also, just because someone has posted something you want to hear, doesnít make it true.

Last edited by pug; 28th Jul 2023 at 23:31.
pug is online now  
Old 29th Jul 2023, 00:20
  #1303 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 58
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Point is there is no overriding evidence.

Last edited by G-FORZ; 29th Jul 2023 at 00:37.
G-FORZ is online now  
Old 29th Jul 2023, 00:49
  #1304 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 1,294
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by G-FORZ
Point is there is no overriding evidence.
So the revenue per passenger being in line with LPL, EMA, MAN and LBA is not overriding evidence that Peel did not in fact divert car parking revenue to another as yet undisclosed Peel entity in some process of self sabotage? The assumption being that DSA generated more revenue in car parking alone than those much bigger and busier airports? And you cannot see the flaws in that argument?

Thereís so much wrong with the stance youíre taking itís hard to know where to start.
pug is online now  
Old 29th Jul 2023, 20:36
  #1305 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Doncaster
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pug
Revenue per passenger pretty much matched EMA, there are no accounting gymnastics going on with their stated revenue unless you are suggesting that this is an industry wide practice?

The EMA accounts provide a beak down where DSAL did not which is helpful because their accounts suggest that they make around £7.00 per passenger on car parking and retail. When you look at the historic accounts for DSAL itís pretty much the same - of course allowing for the fact that aviation revenue at EMA (which matches car parking if using a per passenger measure) is much higher probably due to the sheer number of freight movements.

Problem for DSA was that they were throwing money at airlines trying to get them to use it as they had weak bargaining power, and you must know that every time an airline fails to be a success the airport becomes a greater risk which weakens their bargaining power even further to the point where Wizzair U.K. were seen as the final roll of the dice. With weak bargaining power comes lower potential revenue from landing and handling fees cos they have to keep them low to be competitive. We do know that when Wizz moved to LBA they were paying more to do so, so aviation revenues at DSA were probably fairly low.

Based on that, if you still want to accuse them of fraud thatís on you, as is the burden of proof. Iím far from Peels biggest fan, but I think theyíre bang to rights on this one.
so you have £10,456,000 for car parking and retail
passengers were 1.1m
How did you calculate £7 for car park and retail?
RobinRed is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2023, 21:15
  #1306 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 1,294
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RobinRed
so you have £10,456,000 for car parking and retail
passengers were 1.1m
How did you calculate £7 for car park and retail?
Where have you got £10,450,000 from?

I calculated that by using the proportion of revenue reported at other airports, if it was the same the figure of £7.00 per passenger would still allow for other revenue streams such as aviation and property. If you ready my previous posts you will see them in the context intended.

Last edited by pug; 29th Jul 2023 at 21:42.
pug is online now  
Old 29th Jul 2023, 21:29
  #1307 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Doncaster
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pug
Where have you got £10,450,000 from?
£3m retail, £7.4m for car parking
so where did you get £7 per passenger from?
you said both
RobinRed is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2023, 21:46
  #1308 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 1,294
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RobinRed
£3m retail, £7.4m for car parking
so where did you get £7 per passenger from?
you said both
Where have you got that breakdown from? I have just explained in my last post how I estimated without having a breakdown of the figures as this breakdown wasnít provided in the published accounts. Read the thread.

Last edited by pug; 29th Jul 2023 at 22:02.
pug is online now  
Old 29th Jul 2023, 22:52
  #1309 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Doncaster
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pug
Revenue per passenger pretty much matched EMA, there are no accounting gymnastics going on with their stated revenue unless you are suggesting that this is an industry wide practice?

The EMA accounts provide a beak down where DSAL did not which is helpful because their accounts suggest that they make around £7.00 per passenger on car parking and retail. When you look at the historic accounts for DSAL itís pretty much the same - of course allowing for the fact that aviation revenue at EMA (which matches car parking if using a per passenger measure) is much higher probably due to the sheer number of freight movements.

Problem for DSA was that they were throwing money at airlines trying to get them to use it as they had weak bargaining power, and you must know that every time an airline fails to be a success the airport becomes a greater risk which weakens their bargaining power even further to the point where Wizzair U.K. were seen as the final roll of the dice. With weak bargaining power comes lower potential revenue from landing and handling fees cos they have to keep them low to be competitive. We do know that when Wizz moved to LBA they were paying more to do so, so aviation revenues at DSA were probably fairly low.

Based on that, if you still want to accuse them of fraud thatís on you, as is the burden of proof. Iím far from Peels biggest fan, but I think theyíre bang to rights on this one.
you said yourself they provide an breakdown and now you deny it

I will ask again £10.456m, 1. passengers, where does £7 come from, you Rubbished Cazzy's numbers and now yours is in doubt
RobinRed is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2023, 23:02
  #1310 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 1,294
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RobinRed
you said yourself they provide an breakdown and now you deny it

I will ask again £10.456m, 1. passengers, where does £7 come from, you Rubbished Cazzy's numbers and now yours is in doubt
If you read it carefully I said EMA provide a breakdown. I also used figures from 2019 pre pandemic. I was NOT referencing DSA. I suggest you read the thread again. I was saying that it is reasonable to compare with DSA as they have a similar surface access setup, as G-FORZ pointed out.

For the hard of thinking;

https://www.insidermedia.com/news/midlands/results-take-off-at-east-midlands-airport#:~:text=East%20Midlands%20Airport's%20revenue%20from ,m%20to%20£11.6m.

Divide all those by 4.2million.

This is not Facebook. You do not get away with obfuscation on here.

Still non the wiser where you plucked 10456000 from. Cazza didnít provide any numbers.

Last edited by pug; 30th Jul 2023 at 00:04.
pug is online now  
Old 30th Jul 2023, 02:06
  #1311 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 58
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pug
Still non the wiser where you plucked 10456000 from. Cazza didnít provide any numbers.
Try companies house, for EMA to Y22 the full breakdowns are there to see retail £3,032,000 car parks £7,424,000 total £10,456,000 1.1m pax = £9.50/pax
Cazza didnít provide numbers but suggested car park revenue was close to the full stated DSA revenue.
For DSA it might be prudent to look at aircraft movements to assess what was a realistic airfield performance (revenue) bear in mind for Y22 we are talking Freight, TUI,WIZZ, Police, Excel, flying club and Ryanair/Easy training, put that all in there and add Car Parking and Retail plus all airside rentals, do you really think this is all reported properly in revenue of the accounts of DSA Ltd?
G-FORZ is online now  
Old 30th Jul 2023, 05:34
  #1312 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 1,294
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by G-FORZ
Try companies house, for EMA to Y22 the full breakdowns are there to see retail £3,032,000 car parks £7,424,000 total £10,456,000 1.1m pax = £9.50/pax
Cazza didnít provide numbers but suggested car park revenue was close to the full stated DSA revenue.
For DSA it might be prudent to look at aircraft movements to assess what was a realistic airfield performance (revenue) bear in mind for Y22 we are talking Freight, TUI,WIZZ, Police, Excel, flying club and Ryanair/Easy training, put that all in there and add Car Parking and Retail plus all airside rentals, do you really think this is all reported properly in revenue of the accounts of DSA Ltd?
We got there in the end.. Again, why are we using FY22? We donít have the results from DSA to compare so how is it in any way scientific? Use 2019 figures and come back. Compare also LPL (still effectively a Peel airport) where revenue for car parking was £3.60 per passenger. It is no use using FY20, 21 and 22 for obvious reasons.

Revenue at DSA for FY 21 was I believe £8.4n on 400000+ passengers (your figures!) which is £20.00 per passenger. Is this also a misrepresentation?

Cazza also hasnít replied to my question, which Peel company siphoned off the car parking revenue and how much was it?

Itís laughable that youíre coming on here accusing a company effectively of Ďbasically fraudí with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back it up other than Ďtrust me dudeí.

You also havenít answered any of my questions of where this latent demand is and how Peel have deterred growth.
pug is online now  
Old 30th Jul 2023, 10:18
  #1313 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: the dark side
Posts: 1,061
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pug
Wizz have said they wouldnít return.
So seeing as this isnít Facebook, and youíre now the expert on DSA, with your almost daily posting with made up figures on DSA accounts deployment, where did Wizz say they wouldnít return and when?

On the car park money elements, of the two stories yours is by far the least compelling. Iíd like the know where the revenue for the sections they occasionally rented out on a commercial basis went to. Please tell us as youíre obvs the car park king.

As youíre obviously the most current on the airport, please tell us whatís happening with 2excel. Iím sure weíll all be pleased to hear your Ďinformedí non Facebook answers.

Iím actually interested in your (factual) answers though, not wibble and froth cut and pasted from foamer filled forums like airports4us.

So, no obfuscation please, when and where did Wizz say they would not return?

Tell us some DSA facts about car park revenue, not your guesswork based on other airports not in the Peel portfolio.

And what are 2excel doing, are they still there?


As you yourself say, this isnít Facebook, you donít get away with obfuscation here.
jumpseater is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2023, 11:31
  #1314 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 1,294
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jumpseater
So seeing as this isnít Facebook, and youíre now the expert on DSA, with your almost daily posting with made up figures on DSA accounts deployment, where did Wizz say they wouldnít return and when?

On the car park money elements, of the two stories yours is by far the least compelling. Iíd like the know where the revenue for the sections they occasionally rented out on a commercial basis went to. Please tell us as youíre obvs the car park king.

As youíre obviously the most current on the airport, please tell us whatís happening with 2excel. Iím sure weíll all be pleased to hear your Ďinformedí non Facebook answers.

Iím actually interested in your (factual) answers though, not wibble and froth cut and pasted from foamer filled forums like airports4us.

So, no obfuscation please, when and where did Wizz say they would not return?

Tell us some DSA facts about car park revenue, not your guesswork based on other airports not in the Peel portfolio.

And what are 2excel doing, are they still there?


As you yourself say, this isnít Facebook, you donít get away with obfuscation here.
Wondered when youíd show up.

Im not proclaiming to be a car parking expert, obviously you know where the black hole in the accounts is, care to share as I too am genuinely interested, as I posted earlier. I have t posted made up figures, Iíve posted assumptions and shared why I did so, if you think thatís wrong then perhaps point out why itís wrong to use such a method. If itís proven Peel have purposefully syphoned revenue off to a different entity then that does raise questions, but Iím not sure how you can argue with benchmark figures when itís pretty well understood industry wide that car parking revenue on average contributes to around 35% of an airports total revenue. Of course you already know this.

2excel? No idea, last I heard they were hoping to move to Scampton, that was a while ago. Perhaps the all knowing one would like to share.

in a recent LBA consultative committee meeting,
(and also a not so public one) wizzair were said to have claimed that they are performing better since moving to LBA, and that they would not return to DSA in any scenario where it to reopen. You can of course make of that what you want, Iím not dictating just offering information that may or may not be rubbish.

With all that said, seems whenever routes have been offered by anyone other than TUI they havenít stayed. Perhaps itís a conspiracy? Perhaps Virgin really did want to start a northern hub operation at DSA and they were priced out by Peel. Or maybe demand didnít meet expectations. Same goes for freight with EMA being next door, or perhaps this is false information too and Peel turned away Fedex, UPS and the Royal Mail? What is your take on that?

Occamís razor applies.

Last edited by pug; 30th Jul 2023 at 16:43.
pug is online now  
Old 30th Jul 2023, 12:17
  #1315 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: the dark side
Posts: 1,061
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pug
Wondered when youíd show up.

2excel? No idea, last I heard they were hoping to move to Scampton. Perhaps the all knowing one would like to share more information?

Wizzair said in a recent LBA consultative committee meeting (and also a not so public one) that they are performing better since moving to LBA. You can of course make of that what you want, Iím not dictating just offering information that may or may not be rubbish.

Perhaps Virgin really did want to start a northern hub operation at DSA and they were priced out by Peel.

Same goes for freight with EMA being next door, or perhaps this is false information too and Peel turned away Fedex, UPS and the Royal Mail?

Occamís razor applies.
2exel, of course theyíre moving to that other closed Ďairportí how very logical. And of course anyone who knows what their considered options they are negotiating are, is going to post commercially sensitive information on Pprune, thatís a given surely, itís not Facebook after all!

So, youíre already backpedaling on saying Wizzair said they wouldnít go back to DSA.

And you tell us theyíve made those statements in a meeting they donít actually attend, theyíre not even members of the CC, or appear represented at. Iíd currently err towards the Ďrubbishí end.



I think we can agree on Virginís northern hub, I donít doubt discussion took place about operating from DSA, but the hub concept, nope.



jumpseater is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2023, 13:14
  #1316 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 1,294
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jumpseater
2exel, of course theyíre moving to that other closed Ďairportí how very logical. And of course anyone who knows what their considered options they are negotiating are, is going to post commercially sensitive information on Pprune, thatís a given surely, itís not Facebook after all!

So, youíre already backpedaling on saying Wizzair said they wouldnít go back to DSA.

And you tell us theyíve made those statements in a meeting they donít actually attend, theyíre not even members of the CC, or appear represented at. Iíd currently err towards the Ďrubbishí end.



I think we can agree on Virginís northern hub, I donít doubt discussion took place about operating from DSA, but the hub concept, nope.
I donít know which rock youíve been living under, but unless you havenít realised Scampton Holdings wanted to return it to aviation purposes, pretty much accepted that they had 2Excel on mind as their anchor tenant. Commercially sensitive? Are you assuming the guys down the road arenít aware of what their ex colleagues may be planning? Anyway, that was the last I heard, I have heard nothing since and that was months ago so of course they will be making plans for their business. Would have thought that theyíd maintain their office function at Doncaster, be hard to move them elsewhere. Just my opinion of course, not sure if itís expected of me to put that caveat every time I post something, being that this is a forum and all?

Im not backpedaling, itís been said at a consultative committee meeting, along with some Ďcommercially sensitive informationí (hint: Ben Houchen tried to pay them) that they wouldnít return to DSA in any scenario that it reopens. Might be rubbish like you say, but do you believe that LBA havenít agreed a long term deal to keep them there? Their U.K. arm didnít exactly find their foreword bookings were ever going to set the world on fire, but thereís no doubting they had a good niche with the Eastern European stuff, perhaps Peel werenít all that bad after all?

And here is the problem, we donít doubt discussions took place with a lot of airlines and operators, what stopped them from investing? Does this not confirm that Peel might have been correct and that there was a fundamental lack of viability?

Further caveat, as someone who had the possibility of working out of there in recent years dangled in front of me, the fact that itís not there now is disappointing on a personal level, cos itís not a bad drive at all,

Last edited by pug; 30th Jul 2023 at 13:38.
pug is online now  
Old 1st Aug 2023, 00:34
  #1317 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 1,294
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Seen it posted elsewhere that when FlyBe based 2 x EJets at DSA it cost the airport operating company £1million per year. Suggestion that they were remiss for doing so. Nope, they wanted to grow passenger numbers. Do not assume that they had a long list of potential business lined up, cos they didnít.

Sure Iíll get flamed for this, but itís not my words. I knew they paid FlyBe to start up a base but I didnít realise just how much it was. I remember in about 2011 when they ran a short season HUY-AGP the load factors were something like 97%.. their average for the DSA base? No idea but when I flew DSA-TXL and back there were around 25 people on the flight, on a 119 seat aircraft, on a Friday evening.

Last edited by pug; 1st Aug 2023 at 01:00.
pug is online now  
Old 1st Aug 2023, 10:41
  #1318 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: the dark side
Posts: 1,061
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Iíve not been living under any rock I was advised in a professional meeting with 2exel of the alternate location in late December 22. I spoke to some 2exel crew at a location this June and discussed the same alternate. So some personel know of it, and some wonít.

https://www.universal-defence.com/bl...re?hs_amp=true
Scampton doesnít look like itís going anywhere towards a viable solution anytime in the foreseeable future. One partner has said the site isnít viable and the Holdings company who have no track record of this size of development, needs the same land that the Home Office wants, and the site is still government owned.

You told us Wizz has said in a CC meeting that they werenít going back to Doncaster. Iíve asked you when/where and for a Brucie bonus add by whom? By the time you made that statement two Cc meetings had taken place, one in December 22, and the other in March. Wizz have attended neither meeting, and itís not minuted. Thatís a factual statement. So, which Cc meeting was it?



jumpseater is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2023, 11:17
  #1319 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,896
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by jumpseater
You told us Wizz has said in a CC meeting that they werenít going back to Doncaster. Iíve asked you when/where and for a Brucie bonus add by whom? By the time you made that statement two Cc meetings had taken place, one in December 22, and the other in March. Wizz have attended neither meeting, and itís not minuted. Thatís a factual statement. So, which Cc meeting was it?
The only reasons for Wizz to move back to DSA (in the extremely unlikely event it reopens to commercial passenger traffic) would be if revenue wasn't meeting their expectations at LBA, or the new operators of DSA made an "offer they couldn't refuse" and given the history of DSA doing just that the chances of such a reckless offer being tabled must be somewhere not far off zero.

If DSA reopens it will surely be on the basis of a business / GA field, with the rest of the real estate being covered in the inevitable warehousing.
ATNotts is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2023, 19:45
  #1320 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 1,294
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jumpseater
Iíve not been living under any rock I was advised in a professional meeting with 2exel of the alternate location in late December 22. I spoke to some 2exel crew at a location this June and discussed the same alternate. So some personel know of it, and some wonít.

https://www.universal-defence.com/bl...re?hs_amp=true
Scampton doesnít look like itís going anywhere towards a viable solution anytime in the foreseeable future. One partner has said the site isnít viable and the Holdings company who have no track record of this size of development, needs the same land that the Home Office wants, and the site is still government owned.

You told us Wizz has said in a CC meeting that they werenít going back to Doncaster. Iíve asked you when/where and for a Brucie bonus add by whom? By the time you made that statement two Cc meetings had taken place, one in December 22, and the other in March. Wizz have attended neither meeting, and itís not minuted. Thatís a factual statement. So, which Cc meeting was it?
So after checking with two independent sources regarding Wizzair and the CC meeting I will concede that it was not Wizzair who said they wouldnít return. It was however said (in the March meeting) by the LBA CEO, upon being asked whether Wizz would return to DSA in a scenario that sees it reopen that this is highly unlikely, they report that they are happy with their sales performance at LBA. So yes, maybe they will return if someone manages to reopen DSA, or maybe they wonít. Iíd be hedging my bets on them staying at LBA.

I agree 100% on Scampton, as I have posted on here previously on a different thread. Maybe BH has made them an offer they canít refuse, or maybe theyíre going somewhere a bit left field. I donít know. Whatever scenario I hope their good staff arenít put out by it too much, cos what theyíre doing now seems to work.

I think ATN Notts has hit the nail on the head though. An airport with excellent facilities such as the one at DSA costs a lot to operate. But how do you justify that cost if the volume cannot be attained? I appreciate you work(Ed?) there and honestly wish no malice, but it does concern me that a lot of public money could be piled into this with the same outcome. However, this was all predicted to happen 20 years ago, and short of one of the main competitors closing its difficult to see a way out of it. I know lots of people who want nothing more for it to work and I will include myself in that as if the aspirations could be met it would make my life a lot easier, but evidence suggests itís not to be. Maybe you can prove this wrong.
pug is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.