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Last edited by pug; 28th Jul 2023 at 22:31.
So the revenue per passenger being in line with LPL, EMA, MAN and LBA is not overriding evidence that Peel did not in fact divert car parking revenue to another as yet undisclosed Peel entity in some process of self sabotage? The assumption being that DSA generated more revenue in car parking alone than those much bigger and busier airports? And you cannot see the flaws in that argument?
There’s so much wrong with the stance you’re taking it’s hard to know where to start.
There’s so much wrong with the stance you’re taking it’s hard to know where to start.
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Revenue per passenger pretty much matched EMA, there are no accounting gymnastics going on with their stated revenue unless you are suggesting that this is an industry wide practice?
The EMA accounts provide a beak down where DSAL did not which is helpful because their accounts suggest that they make around £7.00 per passenger on car parking and retail. When you look at the historic accounts for DSAL it’s pretty much the same - of course allowing for the fact that aviation revenue at EMA (which matches car parking if using a per passenger measure) is much higher probably due to the sheer number of freight movements.
Problem for DSA was that they were throwing money at airlines trying to get them to use it as they had weak bargaining power, and you must know that every time an airline fails to be a success the airport becomes a greater risk which weakens their bargaining power even further to the point where Wizzair U.K. were seen as the final roll of the dice. With weak bargaining power comes lower potential revenue from landing and handling fees cos they have to keep them low to be competitive. We do know that when Wizz moved to LBA they were paying more to do so, so aviation revenues at DSA were probably fairly low.
Based on that, if you still want to accuse them of fraud that’s on you, as is the burden of proof. I’m far from Peels biggest fan, but I think they’re bang to rights on this one.
The EMA accounts provide a beak down where DSAL did not which is helpful because their accounts suggest that they make around £7.00 per passenger on car parking and retail. When you look at the historic accounts for DSAL it’s pretty much the same - of course allowing for the fact that aviation revenue at EMA (which matches car parking if using a per passenger measure) is much higher probably due to the sheer number of freight movements.
Problem for DSA was that they were throwing money at airlines trying to get them to use it as they had weak bargaining power, and you must know that every time an airline fails to be a success the airport becomes a greater risk which weakens their bargaining power even further to the point where Wizzair U.K. were seen as the final roll of the dice. With weak bargaining power comes lower potential revenue from landing and handling fees cos they have to keep them low to be competitive. We do know that when Wizz moved to LBA they were paying more to do so, so aviation revenues at DSA were probably fairly low.
Based on that, if you still want to accuse them of fraud that’s on you, as is the burden of proof. I’m far from Peels biggest fan, but I think they’re bang to rights on this one.
passengers were 1.1m
How did you calculate £7 for car park and retail?
I calculated that by using the proportion of revenue reported at other airports, if it was the same the figure of £7.00 per passenger would still allow for other revenue streams such as aviation and property. If you ready my previous posts you will see them in the context intended.
Last edited by pug; 29th Jul 2023 at 20:42.
Last edited by pug; 29th Jul 2023 at 21:02.
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Revenue per passenger pretty much matched EMA, there are no accounting gymnastics going on with their stated revenue unless you are suggesting that this is an industry wide practice?
The EMA accounts provide a beak down where DSAL did not which is helpful because their accounts suggest that they make around £7.00 per passenger on car parking and retail. When you look at the historic accounts for DSAL it’s pretty much the same - of course allowing for the fact that aviation revenue at EMA (which matches car parking if using a per passenger measure) is much higher probably due to the sheer number of freight movements.
Problem for DSA was that they were throwing money at airlines trying to get them to use it as they had weak bargaining power, and you must know that every time an airline fails to be a success the airport becomes a greater risk which weakens their bargaining power even further to the point where Wizzair U.K. were seen as the final roll of the dice. With weak bargaining power comes lower potential revenue from landing and handling fees cos they have to keep them low to be competitive. We do know that when Wizz moved to LBA they were paying more to do so, so aviation revenues at DSA were probably fairly low.
Based on that, if you still want to accuse them of fraud that’s on you, as is the burden of proof. I’m far from Peels biggest fan, but I think they’re bang to rights on this one.
The EMA accounts provide a beak down where DSAL did not which is helpful because their accounts suggest that they make around £7.00 per passenger on car parking and retail. When you look at the historic accounts for DSAL it’s pretty much the same - of course allowing for the fact that aviation revenue at EMA (which matches car parking if using a per passenger measure) is much higher probably due to the sheer number of freight movements.
Problem for DSA was that they were throwing money at airlines trying to get them to use it as they had weak bargaining power, and you must know that every time an airline fails to be a success the airport becomes a greater risk which weakens their bargaining power even further to the point where Wizzair U.K. were seen as the final roll of the dice. With weak bargaining power comes lower potential revenue from landing and handling fees cos they have to keep them low to be competitive. We do know that when Wizz moved to LBA they were paying more to do so, so aviation revenues at DSA were probably fairly low.
Based on that, if you still want to accuse them of fraud that’s on you, as is the burden of proof. I’m far from Peels biggest fan, but I think they’re bang to rights on this one.
I will ask again £10.456m, 1. passengers, where does £7 come from, you Rubbished Cazzy's numbers and now yours is in doubt
For the hard of thinking;
https://www.insidermedia.com/news/midlands/results-take-off-at-east-midlands-airport#:~:text=East%20Midlands%20Airport's%20revenue%20from ,m%20to%20£11.6m.
Divide all those by 4.2million.
This is not Facebook. You do not get away with obfuscation on here.
Still non the wiser where you plucked 10456000 from. Cazza didn’t provide any numbers.
Last edited by pug; 29th Jul 2023 at 23:04.
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Cazza didn’t provide numbers but suggested car park revenue was close to the full stated DSA revenue.
For DSA it might be prudent to look at aircraft movements to assess what was a realistic airfield performance (revenue) bear in mind for Y22 we are talking Freight, TUI,WIZZ, Police, Excel, flying club and Ryanair/Easy training, put that all in there and add Car Parking and Retail plus all airside rentals, do you really think this is all reported properly in revenue of the accounts of DSA Ltd?
Try companies house, for EMA to Y22 the full breakdowns are there to see retail £3,032,000 car parks £7,424,000 total £10,456,000 1.1m pax = £9.50/pax
Cazza didn’t provide numbers but suggested car park revenue was close to the full stated DSA revenue.
For DSA it might be prudent to look at aircraft movements to assess what was a realistic airfield performance (revenue) bear in mind for Y22 we are talking Freight, TUI,WIZZ, Police, Excel, flying club and Ryanair/Easy training, put that all in there and add Car Parking and Retail plus all airside rentals, do you really think this is all reported properly in revenue of the accounts of DSA Ltd?
Cazza didn’t provide numbers but suggested car park revenue was close to the full stated DSA revenue.
For DSA it might be prudent to look at aircraft movements to assess what was a realistic airfield performance (revenue) bear in mind for Y22 we are talking Freight, TUI,WIZZ, Police, Excel, flying club and Ryanair/Easy training, put that all in there and add Car Parking and Retail plus all airside rentals, do you really think this is all reported properly in revenue of the accounts of DSA Ltd?
Revenue at DSA for FY 21 was I believe £8.4n on 400000+ passengers (your figures!) which is £20.00 per passenger. Is this also a misrepresentation?
Cazza also hasn’t replied to my question, which Peel company siphoned off the car parking revenue and how much was it?
It’s laughable that you’re coming on here accusing a company effectively of ‘basically fraud’ with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back it up other than ‘trust me dude’.
You also haven’t answered any of my questions of where this latent demand is and how Peel have deterred growth.
So seeing as this isn’t Facebook, and you’re now the expert on DSA, with your almost daily posting with made up figures on DSA accounts deployment, where did Wizz say they wouldn’t return and when?
On the car park money elements, of the two stories yours is by far the least compelling. I’d like the know where the revenue for the sections they occasionally rented out on a commercial basis went to. Please tell us as you’re obvs the car park king.
As you’re obviously the most current on the airport, please tell us what’s happening with 2excel. I’m sure we’ll all be pleased to hear your ‘informed’ non Facebook answers.
I’m actually interested in your (factual) answers though, not wibble and froth cut and pasted from foamer filled forums like airports4us.
So, no obfuscation please, when and where did Wizz say they would not return?
Tell us some DSA facts about car park revenue, not your guesswork based on other airports not in the Peel portfolio.
And what are 2excel doing, are they still there?
As you yourself say, this isn’t Facebook, you don’t get away with obfuscation here.
On the car park money elements, of the two stories yours is by far the least compelling. I’d like the know where the revenue for the sections they occasionally rented out on a commercial basis went to. Please tell us as you’re obvs the car park king.
As you’re obviously the most current on the airport, please tell us what’s happening with 2excel. I’m sure we’ll all be pleased to hear your ‘informed’ non Facebook answers.
I’m actually interested in your (factual) answers though, not wibble and froth cut and pasted from foamer filled forums like airports4us.
So, no obfuscation please, when and where did Wizz say they would not return?
Tell us some DSA facts about car park revenue, not your guesswork based on other airports not in the Peel portfolio.
And what are 2excel doing, are they still there?
As you yourself say, this isn’t Facebook, you don’t get away with obfuscation here.
So seeing as this isn’t Facebook, and you’re now the expert on DSA, with your almost daily posting with made up figures on DSA accounts deployment, where did Wizz say they wouldn’t return and when?
On the car park money elements, of the two stories yours is by far the least compelling. I’d like the know where the revenue for the sections they occasionally rented out on a commercial basis went to. Please tell us as you’re obvs the car park king.
As you’re obviously the most current on the airport, please tell us what’s happening with 2excel. I’m sure we’ll all be pleased to hear your ‘informed’ non Facebook answers.
I’m actually interested in your (factual) answers though, not wibble and froth cut and pasted from foamer filled forums like airports4us.
So, no obfuscation please, when and where did Wizz say they would not return?
Tell us some DSA facts about car park revenue, not your guesswork based on other airports not in the Peel portfolio.
And what are 2excel doing, are they still there?
As you yourself say, this isn’t Facebook, you don’t get away with obfuscation here.
On the car park money elements, of the two stories yours is by far the least compelling. I’d like the know where the revenue for the sections they occasionally rented out on a commercial basis went to. Please tell us as you’re obvs the car park king.
As you’re obviously the most current on the airport, please tell us what’s happening with 2excel. I’m sure we’ll all be pleased to hear your ‘informed’ non Facebook answers.
I’m actually interested in your (factual) answers though, not wibble and froth cut and pasted from foamer filled forums like airports4us.
So, no obfuscation please, when and where did Wizz say they would not return?
Tell us some DSA facts about car park revenue, not your guesswork based on other airports not in the Peel portfolio.
And what are 2excel doing, are they still there?
As you yourself say, this isn’t Facebook, you don’t get away with obfuscation here.
Im not proclaiming to be a car parking expert, obviously you know where the black hole in the accounts is, care to share as I too am genuinely interested, as I posted earlier. I have t posted made up figures, I’ve posted assumptions and shared why I did so, if you think that’s wrong then perhaps point out why it’s wrong to use such a method. If it’s proven Peel have purposefully syphoned revenue off to a different entity then that does raise questions, but I’m not sure how you can argue with benchmark figures when it’s pretty well understood industry wide that car parking revenue on average contributes to around 35% of an airports total revenue. Of course you already know this.
2excel? No idea, last I heard they were hoping to move to Scampton, that was a while ago. Perhaps the all knowing one would like to share.
in a recent LBA consultative committee meeting,
(and also a not so public one) wizzair were said to have claimed that they are performing better since moving to LBA, and that they would not return to DSA in any scenario where it to reopen. You can of course make of that what you want, I’m not dictating just offering information that may or may not be rubbish.
With all that said, seems whenever routes have been offered by anyone other than TUI they haven’t stayed. Perhaps it’s a conspiracy? Perhaps Virgin really did want to start a northern hub operation at DSA and they were priced out by Peel. Or maybe demand didn’t meet expectations. Same goes for freight with EMA being next door, or perhaps this is false information too and Peel turned away Fedex, UPS and the Royal Mail? What is your take on that?
Occam’s razor applies.
Last edited by pug; 30th Jul 2023 at 15:43.
Wondered when you’d show up.
2excel? No idea, last I heard they were hoping to move to Scampton. Perhaps the all knowing one would like to share more information?
Wizzair said in a recent LBA consultative committee meeting (and also a not so public one) that they are performing better since moving to LBA. You can of course make of that what you want, I’m not dictating just offering information that may or may not be rubbish.
Perhaps Virgin really did want to start a northern hub operation at DSA and they were priced out by Peel.
Same goes for freight with EMA being next door, or perhaps this is false information too and Peel turned away Fedex, UPS and the Royal Mail?
Occam’s razor applies.
2excel? No idea, last I heard they were hoping to move to Scampton. Perhaps the all knowing one would like to share more information?
Wizzair said in a recent LBA consultative committee meeting (and also a not so public one) that they are performing better since moving to LBA. You can of course make of that what you want, I’m not dictating just offering information that may or may not be rubbish.
Perhaps Virgin really did want to start a northern hub operation at DSA and they were priced out by Peel.
Same goes for freight with EMA being next door, or perhaps this is false information too and Peel turned away Fedex, UPS and the Royal Mail?
Occam’s razor applies.
So, you’re already backpedaling on saying Wizzair said they wouldn’t go back to DSA.
And you tell us they’ve made those statements in a meeting they don’t actually attend, they’re not even members of the CC, or appear represented at. I’d currently err towards the ‘rubbish’ end.
I think we can agree on Virgin’s northern hub, I don’t doubt discussion took place about operating from DSA, but the hub concept, nope.
2exel, of course they’re moving to that other closed ‘airport’ how very logical. And of course anyone who knows what their considered options they are negotiating are, is going to post commercially sensitive information on Pprune, that’s a given surely, it’s not Facebook after all!
So, you’re already backpedaling on saying Wizzair said they wouldn’t go back to DSA.
And you tell us they’ve made those statements in a meeting they don’t actually attend, they’re not even members of the CC, or appear represented at. I’d currently err towards the ‘rubbish’ end.
I think we can agree on Virgin’s northern hub, I don’t doubt discussion took place about operating from DSA, but the hub concept, nope.
So, you’re already backpedaling on saying Wizzair said they wouldn’t go back to DSA.
And you tell us they’ve made those statements in a meeting they don’t actually attend, they’re not even members of the CC, or appear represented at. I’d currently err towards the ‘rubbish’ end.
I think we can agree on Virgin’s northern hub, I don’t doubt discussion took place about operating from DSA, but the hub concept, nope.
Im not backpedaling, it’s been said at a consultative committee meeting, along with some ‘commercially sensitive information’ (hint: Ben Houchen tried to pay them) that they wouldn’t return to DSA in any scenario that it reopens. Might be rubbish like you say, but do you believe that LBA haven’t agreed a long term deal to keep them there? Their U.K. arm didn’t exactly find their foreword bookings were ever going to set the world on fire, but there’s no doubting they had a good niche with the Eastern European stuff, perhaps Peel weren’t all that bad after all?
And here is the problem, we don’t doubt discussions took place with a lot of airlines and operators, what stopped them from investing? Does this not confirm that Peel might have been correct and that there was a fundamental lack of viability?
Further caveat, as someone who had the possibility of working out of there in recent years dangled in front of me, the fact that it’s not there now is disappointing on a personal level, cos it’s not a bad drive at all,
Last edited by pug; 30th Jul 2023 at 12:38.
Seen it posted elsewhere that when FlyBe based 2 x EJets at DSA it cost the airport operating company £1million per year. Suggestion that they were remiss for doing so. Nope, they wanted to grow passenger numbers. Do not assume that they had a long list of potential business lined up, cos they didn’t.
Sure I’ll get flamed for this, but it’s not my words. I knew they paid FlyBe to start up a base but I didn’t realise just how much it was. I remember in about 2011 when they ran a short season HUY-AGP the load factors were something like 97%.. their average for the DSA base? No idea but when I flew DSA-TXL and back there were around 25 people on the flight, on a 119 seat aircraft, on a Friday evening.
Sure I’ll get flamed for this, but it’s not my words. I knew they paid FlyBe to start up a base but I didn’t realise just how much it was. I remember in about 2011 when they ran a short season HUY-AGP the load factors were something like 97%.. their average for the DSA base? No idea but when I flew DSA-TXL and back there were around 25 people on the flight, on a 119 seat aircraft, on a Friday evening.
Last edited by pug; 1st Aug 2023 at 00:00.
I’ve not been living under any rock I was advised in a professional meeting with 2exel of the alternate location in late December 22. I spoke to some 2exel crew at a location this June and discussed the same alternate. So some personel know of it, and some won’t.
https://www.universal-defence.com/bl...re?hs_amp=true
Scampton doesn’t look like it’s going anywhere towards a viable solution anytime in the foreseeable future. One partner has said the site isn’t viable and the Holdings company who have no track record of this size of development, needs the same land that the Home Office wants, and the site is still government owned.
You told us Wizz has said in a CC meeting that they weren’t going back to Doncaster. I’ve asked you when/where and for a Brucie bonus add by whom? By the time you made that statement two Cc meetings had taken place, one in December 22, and the other in March. Wizz have attended neither meeting, and it’s not minuted. That’s a factual statement. So, which Cc meeting was it?
https://www.universal-defence.com/bl...re?hs_amp=true
Scampton doesn’t look like it’s going anywhere towards a viable solution anytime in the foreseeable future. One partner has said the site isn’t viable and the Holdings company who have no track record of this size of development, needs the same land that the Home Office wants, and the site is still government owned.
You told us Wizz has said in a CC meeting that they weren’t going back to Doncaster. I’ve asked you when/where and for a Brucie bonus add by whom? By the time you made that statement two Cc meetings had taken place, one in December 22, and the other in March. Wizz have attended neither meeting, and it’s not minuted. That’s a factual statement. So, which Cc meeting was it?
You told us Wizz has said in a CC meeting that they weren’t going back to Doncaster. I’ve asked you when/where and for a Brucie bonus add by whom? By the time you made that statement two Cc meetings had taken place, one in December 22, and the other in March. Wizz have attended neither meeting, and it’s not minuted. That’s a factual statement. So, which Cc meeting was it?
If DSA reopens it will surely be on the basis of a business / GA field, with the rest of the real estate being covered in the inevitable warehousing.
I’ve not been living under any rock I was advised in a professional meeting with 2exel of the alternate location in late December 22. I spoke to some 2exel crew at a location this June and discussed the same alternate. So some personel know of it, and some won’t.
https://www.universal-defence.com/bl...re?hs_amp=true
Scampton doesn’t look like it’s going anywhere towards a viable solution anytime in the foreseeable future. One partner has said the site isn’t viable and the Holdings company who have no track record of this size of development, needs the same land that the Home Office wants, and the site is still government owned.
You told us Wizz has said in a CC meeting that they weren’t going back to Doncaster. I’ve asked you when/where and for a Brucie bonus add by whom? By the time you made that statement two Cc meetings had taken place, one in December 22, and the other in March. Wizz have attended neither meeting, and it’s not minuted. That’s a factual statement. So, which Cc meeting was it?
https://www.universal-defence.com/bl...re?hs_amp=true
Scampton doesn’t look like it’s going anywhere towards a viable solution anytime in the foreseeable future. One partner has said the site isn’t viable and the Holdings company who have no track record of this size of development, needs the same land that the Home Office wants, and the site is still government owned.
You told us Wizz has said in a CC meeting that they weren’t going back to Doncaster. I’ve asked you when/where and for a Brucie bonus add by whom? By the time you made that statement two Cc meetings had taken place, one in December 22, and the other in March. Wizz have attended neither meeting, and it’s not minuted. That’s a factual statement. So, which Cc meeting was it?
I agree 100% on Scampton, as I have posted on here previously on a different thread. Maybe BH has made them an offer they can’t refuse, or maybe they’re going somewhere a bit left field. I don’t know. Whatever scenario I hope their good staff aren’t put out by it too much, cos what they’re doing now seems to work.
I think ATN Notts has hit the nail on the head though. An airport with excellent facilities such as the one at DSA costs a lot to operate. But how do you justify that cost if the volume cannot be attained? I appreciate you work(Ed?) there and honestly wish no malice, but it does concern me that a lot of public money could be piled into this with the same outcome. However, this was all predicted to happen 20 years ago, and short of one of the main competitors closing its difficult to see a way out of it. I know lots of people who want nothing more for it to work and I will include myself in that as if the aspirations could be met it would make my life a lot easier, but evidence suggests it’s not to be. Maybe you can prove this wrong.