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Doncaster Sheffield-3

Old 12th Sep 2023, 22:35
  #1341 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dsamole
PEEL have now cancelled all remaining XH558 ground experience days.
All is not lost yet DSAmole.

https://doncaster.moderngov.co.uk/documents/g4600/Public%20reports%20pack%2020th-Sep-2023%2010.00%20Cabinet.pdf?T=10

Free money on offer care of South Yorkshire tax payer! Get your bids in now, could have an all expenses paid airport to play with FOC for up to 2 years. Winners to be announced in February 2024 - if anyone ‘credible’ enters the competition that is.
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Old 13th Sep 2023, 04:56
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I'm really amazed. I really do think they'll get the place reopened after these recent releases. In fact, Peel would be daft not to lease the site, at least in the shirt term. They can't loose.

Key now is who operates it, and what airlines can be attracted.

I still think in five to ten years time however, the same conversations will be happening again.
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Old 13th Sep 2023, 07:53
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I believe WSP and Jacobs have been involved in assisting the council, to what capacity I don't know, but they highly experienced consultancies
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Old 13th Sep 2023, 08:05
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The aviation advisors are Northpoint Aviation.
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Old 13th Sep 2023, 08:33
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I can't see this changes much - "Aviation Consultancy says aviation might make money" - wow!

its going to be hard to get a CPO, significant costs are required to restart and right now every council in the country is looking at Birmingham and Woking and worrying about going bust
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Old 13th Sep 2023, 08:39
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
I can't see this changes much - "Aviation Consultancy says aviation might make money" - wow!

its going to be hard to get a CPO, significant costs are required to restart and right now every council in the country is looking at Birmingham and Woking and worrying about going bust
I don't think a CPO is going to be needed, it sounds like a lease deal is very close.
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Old 13th Sep 2023, 09:21
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Hasn't the site practically been reduced to the bare bones ? Runway and stripped-out terminal building and little else left. Whoever wants to own or operate this place again will need enormously deep pockets just to re-equip.
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Old 13th Sep 2023, 09:50
  #1348 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Mooncrest
Hasn't the site practically been reduced to the bare bones ? Runway and stripped-out terminal building and little else left. Whoever wants to own or operate this place again will need enormously deep pockets just to re-equip.
Nothing has happened to the runway, the security x ray machines have been removed, but other than that only the retailers have removed their equipment from the terminal.

Having said that, it will take tens of millions worth if investment to reopen, but I'm pretty sure they'll cover that cost, after all the spend 50 million on shiny new council offices not long ago.
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Old 13th Sep 2023, 11:02
  #1349 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by TimmyW
Nothing has happened to the runway, the security x ray machines have been removed, but other than that only the retailers have removed their equipment from the terminal.

Having said that, it will take tens of millions worth if investment to reopen, but I'm pretty sure they'll cover that cost, after all the spend 50 million on shiny new council offices not long ago.
A lot of what is outlined in the document references the SOBC which is apparently not to be made public for commercial sensitivity reasons. Risk is mentioned a number of times, as you would expect of any new business venture, however Paragraph 2.8 in the document states ‘Given the historical trading position of DSA and the significant operating costs of reopening the airport it is unlikely that external debt financing will be accessible to any private investor.’

Basically, if I’m interpreting that right, it’s a high risk investment. It’s relying solely on the conclusions made by Peel and DSAL in their assessment of the airports viability being inherently wrong. It also tells us that funding will need to come from a public body to provide costs of reopening and then subsidise the operation for a possibly undetermined period, I feel it’s a big ask to expect an private sector operator to shoulder the costs of the lease after 6-24 months. They’d probably run a mile! Most regional airports are not massive money spinners in isolation, even if the projected 2mppa is reached in year 10, that still isn’t likely to be enough to be profitable given the ongoing subsidies any airline operator will require. Freight would need significant capital investment on top of the re-opening costs to yield any scaleable results - as already discussed EMA is very close by and has those facilities in abundance.

It’s to be believed that CDC will be relying on SYMCA for funding towards the restart costs, there will be a requirement for ongoing subsidy as also covered in the briefing document. Of course this will get unanimous approval, it would be politically suicidal to vote against it, but it does nothing for the longevity of the business cos the money will dry up eventually depending on who is in the Mayoral position and how much is available to them at any given time. The long term funding required for this project will result in less money for other priorities, that appears to be accepted by CDC.

Last edited by pug; 13th Sep 2023 at 13:19.
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Old 13th Sep 2023, 16:53
  #1350 (permalink)  
 
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I'm puzzled... why are local Govt taking on all the risk and putting up all the cash for this, just so people can fly from an airport nearer their home to go to a Mediterranean beach and spend money in a different country ? I just can't see the economic pay-back for the region. If private investors don't like the risk-return profile, and the inward investment and local-business-trade opportunity profile is limited, why are Govt so keen to cough up ?
Business decisions driven by political dogma rarely end well
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Old 13th Sep 2023, 18:18
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why are local Govt taking on all the risk and putting up all the cash for this,
Taking a wild guess - para 34 - "DSA has closed leaving South Yorkshire as the largest European city region without a commercial airport."

just so people can fly from an airport nearer their home
Probably looking up the A1 and seeing that airports win votes
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Old 13th Sep 2023, 18:35
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Yep Teesside the way to go !

No comparison between the airports a few years ago , but the mayor having friends in high places, a Prime Minister on your doorstep and a fantastic PR offering ..
proves the impossible can be possible..at a cost!
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Old 13th Sep 2023, 18:45
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6
I'm puzzled... why are local Govt taking on all the risk and putting up all the cash for this, just so people can fly from an airport nearer their home to go to a Mediterranean beach and spend money in a different country ? I just can't see the economic pay-back for the region. If private investors don't like the risk-return profile, and the inward investment and local-business-trade opportunity profile is limited, why are Govt so keen to cough up ?
Business decisions driven by political dogma rarely end well
There isn't an economic payback, there would however be an enormous regional political willy to wave.

If there was a massive inbound business and / or tourist market to serve the equation might be different. If EMA didn't exist then a large cargo / logistics hub might also provide a good economic case, but it does and there isn't.
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Old 14th Sep 2023, 12:51
  #1354 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ATNotts
There isn't an economic payback, there would however be an enormous regional political willy to wave.

If there was a massive inbound business and / or tourist market to serve the equation might be different. If EMA didn't exist then a large cargo / logistics hub might also provide a good economic case, but it does and there isn't.
It is overwhelmingly being driven by local pride, totally understandable as it is quite right that South Yorkshire Urban Area is currently one of the largest ‘city regions’ in Europe without an airport. The question is to what cost should the local authority(s) pump into it when considering the requirement to meet other obligations?

It’s never going to be profitable in a micro economic sense - they are taking a wider regional economic benefit stance to pursue it. So what will the net benefit be? I would argue that if it is to only handle outbound holiday flights then not that much at all, but if they can get scheduled carriers in with daily flights that offer hub connectivity…. I remain highly sceptical but then it’s not my money they are proposing to spend.

Judging by comments from locals that want it reopening, their argument for it is based on their ability to get to it within 30 minutes, but also the superior service levels when using it, something I can vouch for myself. Inevitably though, the more successful these places become the less user friendly they are - possible exception being LPL.

Agree 100% about freight, it would just take the business that EMA isn’t all that bothered about (which is what it did before it closed), I don’t think a proposal to build a speculative freight integrator facility would get past the board of any infrastructure/hedgefund/equity investment group based on the fact that EMA has all that in abundance and has the necessary agreements in place with the associated long term, long developed agreements with the operators.

Think this wider agreement may still need a great deal of good will from Peel to make it a viable proposal to any private sector airport operator, on top of the subsidies on offer by CDC. Reopening is still far from certain. Peel apparently have the SOBC and prospectus, what may that tell then that they don’t already know?

Last edited by pug; 14th Sep 2023 at 19:14.
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 09:40
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Worth noting also the fuel farm has also gone
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Old 20th Sep 2023, 11:27
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Ros Jones has an early termination clause
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Old 20th Sep 2023, 11:54
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Ros Jones has an early termination clause
And the meaning of this is?

Think this wider agreement may still need a great deal of good will from Peel to make it a viable proposal to any private sector airport operator, on top of the subsidies on offer by CDC. Reopening is still far from certain. Peel apparently have the SOBC and prospectus, what may that tell then that they don’t already know?
​​​​​​​It will also need somebody to fly in and out. Any candidates?
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Old 20th Sep 2023, 12:03
  #1358 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobinRed
Ros Jones has an early termination clause
Why wouldn’t she/they? Would be irresponsible to tie the City of Doncaster into a legally binding agreement to pay £££’s to Peel for 100+ years irrespective of whether the airport becomes viable or not. Peel will similarly want a break clause and may even want an element of oversight.

Still too many variables to be getting excited just yet. Will those 15 or so interested private sector investors actually take up the offer in real terms? It’s one thing expressing interest, another entirely actually committing anything. Will Peel agree to a leasehold on the site considering their previous reluctance to accept further public subsidy on this project? Will the funding become available to CDC, particularly after any assessments of the site to gauge reopening costs as I understand this hasn’t actually been completed yet?

Think the question of who may operate from there is a moot point at the moment, lots could change in two years. However, cannot imagine the CAA keeping airspace as is, as any reopened operation would need to apply for airspace as fitting of a what a reopened airport may look like in terms of traffic (including realistic projections, not some plucked from thin air figures) as there will be kick back from the GA sector and potentially other airports. My guess is it will not justify Class D, at least not from the outset.

Last edited by pug; 20th Sep 2023 at 12:28.
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Old 20th Sep 2023, 15:54
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"It will also need somebody to fly in and out. Any candidates?"

Global Airlines?
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Old 20th Sep 2023, 21:43
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Leader of the Save DSA campaign group, Mark Chadwick, was positive about the outcome of the meeting and told GB News: “We’re now waiting on Peel to give us a lease, if we get a lease, we get our airport open. The information that we’ve got from the council with different operating models shows that the airport can make profit, which has proved Peel wrong.
he hasn't proved anybody wrong, at 2m it makes a massive loss
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