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Doncaster Sheffield-3

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Doncaster Sheffield-3

Old 18th Jul 2023, 11:07
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Originally Posted by pug
No, the general feeling is that Peel have mismanaged the airport either purposefully or inadvertently to the point that it has become unviable. This is evident by the ground swell on various social media pressure sites and seems to have been taken as gospel by the leaders trying to save it themselves. They keep saying they believe the airport could and should be a success, and have probably appointed specialists to write a report on what they want to hear.

DSA has always been seen as high risk by most airlines, I fail to see how this risk will be reduced under any new ownership model. Unless the council are offering to subsidise the venture then I canít see whatís in it for any private sector investor unless they own the freehold outright, and then whatís to stop anyone else doing the same thing as Peel?

I think 5% chance of reopening is about right, even less for it to be a success with any longevity.

I cannot see Doncaster Council subsidising this as they do not have the £10m a year needed to subsidise this and Oliver won't pay.

On the other hand, Lord Chadwick said many new interested parties. Yes there were if you count non airport operators as interested parties. Some airlines turned up though according to a worker at Doncaster Council
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Old 18th Jul 2023, 13:07
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Originally Posted by RobinRed
I cannot see Doncaster Council subsidising this as they do not have the £10m a year needed to subsidise this and Oliver won't pay.

On the other hand, Lord Chadwick said many new interested parties. Yes there were if you count non airport operators as interested parties. Some airlines turned up though according to a worker at Doncaster Council
Itís one thing to express interest and another to make a legally binding commitment, just look back to the expressions of interest in the Finningley project when it was going through Public Enquiry, very few of the airline backers stuck around. Interested to note that some may have taken an interest in offering support at least.

Would like to know who exactly turned up to this.
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Old 18th Jul 2023, 13:53
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
Despite all the current pallaver about leases and CPO's etc I'm struggling to see what the business case is i.e. how an airport operator makes any money. Is it the Southend approach of waiting for MAN, LBA etc to fill up and then pick up the overspill??
Are any of the airports below the 4 million threshold, thinking Southend, Bournemouth, Belfast City, Inverness, genuinely profitable?
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Old 18th Jul 2023, 18:29
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Originally Posted by anothertyke
Are any of the airports below the 4 million threshold, thinking Southend, Bournemouth, Belfast City, Inverness, genuinely profitable?
Bournemouth, Belfast breakeven.
Inverness relies heavily on subsidies.
Southend is a struggle
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Old 18th Jul 2023, 19:17
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Originally Posted by RobinRed
Bournemouth, Belfast breakeven.
Inverness relies heavily on subsidies.
Southend is a struggle
Southend is arguably a cautionary tale of what happens when you rely on large passenger throughput generated by two airlines.

Get the point that airports like these need to find alternative aviation sources of revenue, but having the facilities and resources to handle 737 aircraft carrying passengers at a profitable volume is expensive these days, so it needs to reach the critical volume to be viable.
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Old 19th Jul 2023, 10:48
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Originally Posted by pug
Southend is arguably a cautionary tale of what happens when you rely on large passenger throughput generated by two airlines.

Get the point that airports like these need to find alternative aviation sources of revenue, but having the facilities and resources to handle 737 aircraft carrying passengers at a profitable volume is expensive these days, so it needs to reach the critical volume to be viable.
Isnít it the case that unless there are large scale freight operations (was the UAE interest freight related?) any future success of DSA and of any other regional airport for that matter is in the hands of only 5 sizeable UK airline operators - failure to get a big based commitment from one or a good mix of at least three can end in tears.
It is interesting to note from earlier posts that BOH manages to turn a profit annually with essentially two passenger operators and similar if not less passenger aircraft movements than DSA did - but then they may not be doing any wizardry with the accounts.

Last edited by G-FORZ; 19th Jul 2023 at 11:12.
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Old 19th Jul 2023, 11:24
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Originally Posted by G-FORZ
Isnít it the case that unless there are large scale freight operations (was the UAE interest freight related?) any future success of DSA and of any other regional airport for that matter is in the hands of only 5 sizeable UK airline operators - failure to get a big based commitment from one or a good mix of at least three can end in tears.
It is interesting to note from earlier posts that BOH manages to turn a profit annually with essentially two passenger operators and similar if not less passenger aircraft movements than DSA did - but then they may not be doing any wizardry with the accounts.
Dont know if BOH Ďturns a profití but Iím not sure even with its most recent terminal expansion whether its capacity is anywhere near what DSAís was or what their staffing levels are etc. also, I think the site has developed a lot of aviation related business over decades which contributed to the bottom line. It also serves a fairly large and prosperous conurbation with little direct competition which will help matters.

UAE based interested investor (chancer) was someone involved in tourism in one of the states there, nothing to do with freight.
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Old 19th Jul 2023, 11:43
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Originally Posted by pug
Dont know if BOH Ďturns a profití but Iím not sure even with its most recent terminal expansion whether its capacity is anywhere near what DSAís was or what their staffing levels are etc. also, I think the site has developed a lot of aviation related business over decades which contributed to the bottom line. It also serves a fairly large and prosperous conurbation with little direct competition which will help matters.

UAE based interested investor (chancer) was someone involved in tourism in one of the states there, nothing to do with freight.
itís in the public domain at Companies House. For the year to March Ď22 BOH accounts report it handled 278k passengers, had £45m T/O and had EBITDA £5.8m does seem to point to some creativity in Peels DSA accounts.
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Old 19th Jul 2023, 11:45
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Originally Posted by G-FORZ
itís in the public domain at Companies House. For the year to March Ď22 BOH accounts report it handled 278k passengers, had £45m T/O and had EBITDA £5.8m does seem to point to some creativity in Peels DSA accounts.
How does it? Youíre looking at the accounts of a completely different airport!!
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Old 19th Jul 2023, 12:02
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Originally Posted by pug
How does it? Youíre looking at the accounts of a completely different airport!!
You might want to take a look at accounts for NWI and EXT and then consider why DSA underperformed those airports also, but with significantly more passengers and aircraft movements. Yes all different airports, but things donít add up or look right.
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Old 19th Jul 2023, 12:08
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Originally Posted by G-FORZ
You might want to take a look at accounts for NWI and EXT and then consider why DSA underperformed those airports also, but with significantly more passengers and aircraft movements. Yes all different airports, but things donít add up or look right.
You canít compare those to DSA as they were never built to handle over 2.5 mppa, and they arenít operated to do so either. Seems things donít look right to you because you donít want them to..
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Old 19th Jul 2023, 12:15
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BOH has very diverse aviation activity. Passenger, Cargo, GA, Biz Jets, Pseudo Military (Draken), Military visitors, Maintenance organisations and lots of non aviation activity on the old Vickers/ BAC/BAe site.
I remember times in the 1970s and 80s when there were no passenger flights some days, but the airport survived.
To rely on only passengers requires a large throughput.
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Old 19th Jul 2023, 13:13
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Originally Posted by dixi188
BOH has very diverse aviation activity. Passenger, Cargo, GA, Biz Jets, Pseudo Military (Draken), Military visitors, Maintenance organisations and lots of non aviation activity on the old Vickers/ BAC/BAe site.
I remember times in the 1970s and 80s when there were no passenger flights some days, but the airport survived.
To rely on only passengers requires a large throughput.
Exactly this. People are accusing Peel of accounting with an artistic licence, but they must really consider that their business model of attracting business by offering much reduced fees and ongoing subsidies requires a critical mass to pay off.

Be interested to know how much 2Excel, NPAS, Flight Schools and the other businesses on site actually paid to be there. I suspect very little. Then you have support to airlines by charging less than competing airports to encourage them to stay and build that baseline passenger throughput and add the cost of operating a full service 24 hour airport operation.

You cannot compare with BOH, NWI or EXT.
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Old 19th Jul 2023, 13:22
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Did it ever generate sufficient movements to justify the vast expanse of CAT it was granted?
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Old 19th Jul 2023, 13:37
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Originally Posted by pug

You cannot compare with BOH, NWI or EXT.
But you can if we are comparing published accounts reported revenue year to March 22 (the ones that say they canít operate the airport profitably)
DSA £8.4m
NWI £13.8m
EXT £11.2m
BOH £45.1m
Clearly Peel are not reporting the revenue of the ďAirportĒ and has an operating company set up to take all the operating costs, and conveniently put profitable operations (ancillary activities) in another operating company. The actual revenue of the ďAirportĒ may even exceed that of BOH.
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Old 19th Jul 2023, 13:48
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Originally Posted by G-FORZ
But you can if we are comparing published accounts reported revenue year to March 22 (the ones that say they canít operate the airport profitably)
DSA £8.4m
NWI £13.8m
EXT £11.2m
BOH £45.1m
Clearly Peel are not reporting the revenue of the ďAirportĒ and has an operating company set up to take all the operating costs, and conveniently put profitable operations (ancillary activities) in another operating company. The actual revenue of the ďAirportĒ may even exceed that of BOH.
How are they clearly misreporting revenue?? Clearly they were not generating revenue sufficiently to cover their operating costs unlike the other airports mentioned who have aviation and non aviation clusters attached? All that shows is that revenue at DSA was low in spite of handling the most passengers out of the four, so they were in effect paying passengers to use the airport and it proves it was not viable.

Last edited by pug; 19th Jul 2023 at 15:27.
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Old 19th Jul 2023, 20:38
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Originally Posted by taildragger123
Did it ever generate sufficient movements to justify the vast expanse of CAT it was granted?
No. The Peel spin machine worked as well with the CAA as it did with the local politicians.

It did provide a great training environment though.
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Old 19th Jul 2023, 22:47
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Up the road at MME revenue for year upto March 22 was £7.7m and that was with only 84k passengers and 20k movements.

I await with baited breath the provisional financials for 22-23 year which are due out soon, as this will give a better feel for revenues as it is an increase on pre covid levels. But the 22 year was 55k less passengers than pre covid, so not giving a true picture really.

Looking at DSA revenue for year 21 was £6.1m for 184k passengers.
MME year 21 revenue was £4.8m with 14.5k passengers.
MME year 22 revenue was £7.7m with 84k passengers.

Just goes to show how much more diverse in operations at MME is delivering greater revenue levels than DSA.
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Old 20th Jul 2023, 07:31
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Needs lots and lots of peripheral income. The likes of Bournemouth have a tonne of property assets generating substantial rent and as someone else pointed out here, that steady flow of non-airline business, maintenance visitors etc. Even when Doncaster was renting the big hangars, the rents were very low. Ignore the cited £10m/annum costs of running the place, add in reserves for periodic infrastructure upgrades/maintenance/replacement and that's blown out of the water.
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Old 20th Jul 2023, 09:19
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Originally Posted by fairflyer
Needs lots and lots of peripheral income. The likes of Bournemouth have a tonne of property assets generating substantial rent and as someone else pointed out here, that steady flow of non-airline business, maintenance visitors etc. Even when Doncaster was renting the big hangars, the rents were very low. Ignore the cited £10m/annum costs of running the place, add in reserves for periodic infrastructure upgrades/maintenance/replacement and that's blown out of the water.
DSA had/has plenty of asset/surrounding land, however it's property owner holding company has kept it well away from DSA's books. The only thing on the books is anything that is pure airfield and can't be easily separated out.
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