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Doncaster Sheffield-3

Old 7th Jun 2023, 09:17
  #1221 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pug
Exactly, there have been no specifics just that they will foot the bill if a CPO is successful. Leads me to assume that they would merely be acting as a placeholder before selling the land/airport on to someone else. Not sure whether an issuing authority would take lightly to such a tactic. Particularly if Peel can prove that whatever plans they have for the site would economically outweigh any realistic plans to reopen the airport.

It all has a whiff of electioneering about it. There was no mention at all of talks of a lease, so have they been unsuccessful? Perhaps a bit of brinksmanship again on that point.

EDIT: MP Nick (with his selfie stick) has announced this morning that the airport now can be saved, and that it is all thanks to him. There is the small issue of having to be successful with the CPO first but he’s not deemed that important to mention. Stranger things have happened, but won’t Peel fight this all the way to ensure they aren’t out of pocket? Could be a big bill.
Oliver has worded this carefully

In point 1, he mentions MCA money.

In point 2, it is funding package, in other words, they will receive a loan, hence why he didn't put it up for the vote
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Old 8th Jun 2023, 11:38
  #1222 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobinRed
Oliver has worded this carefully

In point 1, he mentions MCA money.

In point 2, it is funding package, in other words, they will receive a loan, hence why he didn't put it up for the vote
So effectively the loan will have to be voted for and approved at a later date subject to success at a CPO?

Seems to be from the outside that they are confident a private sector investor would swoop in and back the purchase meaning the authorities won’t have to, should a CPO be successful. This is what the council have been talking about in their updates, that any investor ‘may wish to wait for the outcome of a CPO’ I.e get it dirt cheap. If so it sounds like a legal grey area to me that will be fought vociferously by Peel.
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Old 10th Jun 2023, 11:04
  #1223 (permalink)  
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Work continues to secure the future of Doncaster Sheffield Airport.

This week saw South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority (SYMCA) approve a £3.1m financial package, supporting City of Doncaster Council with the complex preparations of a Compulsory Purchase Order (CPO), SYMCA also agreed future funding for Doncaster’s Place Plan, including the potential purchase of DSA.

Work will continue to be progressed through the summer, both negotiations on a potential lease and the legal preparations for a CPO will continue.

There continues to be some misinformation being shared on social media in relation to stripping of the airport. The units within the terminal building (shops, restaurants, bar etc) had fittings which were the property of the tenants. Those tenants have now removed those fixtures and fittings, which is perfectly normal. Certain fittings within the terminal were also leased from external companies and have been returned.

There will of course be costs to reinstate airport operations. All these costs will form part of our business plan which is currently being prepared. We have potential buyers and operators who are aware of what would be required and are fully prepared to work with us to make our airport a success.

Mayor of Doncaster Ros Jones, Mayor Oliver Coppard and Doncaster 3 MPs (Ed Miliband, Rosie Winterton, Nick Fletcher MP) said;
“In our previous update we highlighted the work on the Article 4 direction to protect the site with a planning measure and also the importance of retaining our airspace permissions. Whilst this work reaches its natural conclusion, we continue to engage with a number of parties including the Civil Aviation Authority (Airspace) and Peel (on a potential lease) to ensure we receive the best outcome for our residents and businesses.”

“Peel continues to be unwilling sellers; they have not gone to the open market or made any effort to sell the airport as an operational airport and working business. As elected officials of Doncaster we fully support the work to save our airport from City of Doncaster Council and South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority.”
“This week, we were pleased to agree a package of financial support – supported by leaders across the region in SYMCA - for the CPO legal process.”

“We fully understand that the CPO is a last resort and hope to see progress in relation to the potential long-term lease of the airport, but we are resolute in our determination to see our airport reopen.
Latest joint statement from the local authorities.
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Old 10th Jun 2023, 11:23
  #1224 (permalink)  
 
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I can perfectly well understand the civic pride argument for getting DSA back up and running as a commercial airport but I really struggle to understand what is the overall benefit to Doncaster and the wider area.

No 'jobs are being saved', they would only be being 'created', and I suspect more jobs could be created by turning the site over to logistics, industrial and general commercial use, with perhaps a GA airfield attached.

The former DSA never made money, and likely never would have and unless I am missing something isn't going to.

Couldn't the time of elected representatives and local bureaucrats be better spent on the wider population and their wellbeing?
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Old 10th Jun 2023, 12:00
  #1225 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ATNotts
I can perfectly well understand the civic pride argument for getting DSA back up and running as a commercial airport but I really struggle to understand what is the overall benefit to Doncaster and the wider area.

No 'jobs are being saved', they would only be being 'created', and I suspect more jobs could be created by turning the site over to logistics, industrial and general commercial use, with perhaps a GA airfield attached.

The former DSA never made money, and likely never would have and unless I am missing something isn't going to.

Couldn't the time of elected representatives and local bureaucrats be better spent on the wider population and their wellbeing?
An airport serving only outbound holiday makers and ad/hoc freight which East Midlands isn’t too interested in does not have a wider economic benefit. I would argue that Humberside probably has a bigger economic impact as it connects the region to the global network via AMS.

I think I mentioned in a previous post that by comparison the Doncaster North business park contributes three times more to annual GVA than DSA is estimated to have done when it was open.

If the airport could be a success then fine, but to suggest Peel had actively deterred business on the whole is wrong and disingenuous but seems to pervade the argument from the groups trying to ‘save’ it. Peel wanted nothing more than it to be successful, they wanted to stop the MAN hegemony of the North and saw DSA as their flagship which would, along with LPL, beat MAG with a big stick.

Serious error of judgement and nothing more. Civic pride aside, unless they have a solid business plan they would be foolish to go down the route of a CPO. It also doesn’t exactly send out a good signal to investors. I don’t agree necessarily with their MO, but Peel have been willing to invest where plethora of others have not.
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Old 10th Jun 2023, 18:31
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well said that man.
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Old 11th Jun 2023, 22:04
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For the CPO to be successful there needs to be a watertight case of need to support ongoing infrastructure development that will be in the wider public interests of the local populations of South Yorkshire, Humberside, Lincolnshire and North Notts, and bring current and future transportation plans to fruition. Despite the fact there seems to be little optimism in the latest posts, if the argument is followed through there does appear to be a case for those who support the airport as an alternative to MAN and LBA. The CPO is for the Airport land not the previous business, there is suggestion that other operators may do better than Peel in making the airport a success. I wish the Doncaster/SYMCA every success in seeing through and winning the CPO and finding the right Airport operator to make things work.
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Old 11th Jun 2023, 22:46
  #1228 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by G-FORZ
For the CPO to be successful there needs to be a watertight case of need to support ongoing infrastructure development that will be in the wider public interests of the local populations of South Yorkshire, Humberside, Lincolnshire and North Notts, and bring current and future transportation plans to fruition. Despite the fact there seems to be little optimism in the latest posts, if the argument is followed through there does appear to be a case for those who support the airport as an alternative to MAN and LBA. The CPO is for the Airport land not the previous business, there is suggestion that other operators may do better than Peel in making the airport a success. I wish the Doncaster/SYMCA every success in seeing through and winning the CPO and finding the right Airport operator to make things work.
Wasnt that the argument all along? An alternative to MAN and LBA? The previous business was an airport, regardless of who operated it. I understand the suspicion of Peel, but they did not build it to close it. Independent specialists who are not involved in the consultations have already been quite vocal in the fundamental issues the airport has/had to contend with, that does not go away by being purchased by the council, if anything this will exacerbate the issue.

It’s clear that what the airport needed to be successful was significant subsidy to attract volume traffic. When KLM refused to move (despite plaudits on here and elsewhere predicting they would many years ago) it was quite telling. When easyjet didn’t commit to a base there despite trying, there was another nail in the coffin. When Wizzair U.K. had to reduce their based commitment (thus incurring extra charges by not satisfying the terms of their contract), the writing was on the wall. It’s an airport built for volume that simply does not exist and it’s unlikely that it ever will. Just look at the passenger figures for the flights that were attempted and subsequently lost, are you going to blame that on Peel? If you are then it highlights a fundamental lack of understanding of how airline marketing works.

What the CPO aims to do is to take the land at market value, the Council deem this as an airport. The face value of a piece of land that used to be an airport that has failed is nothing, development as something else could be quite significant. Do you really think Peel and their legal team will take that lying down?

There is no significant business case for an airport at Finningley. It’s been put to market and failed to deliver.

Last edited by pug; 11th Jun 2023 at 23:33.
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Old 12th Jun 2023, 10:25
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Finally, somebody talking complete sense! if this got posted on the glory Facebook saveDSA page, you would get eaten alive by all the die hard fans out there. Great factual & informative post Pug.
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Old 12th Jun 2023, 11:04
  #1230 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AP1995
Finally, somebody talking complete sense! if this got posted on the glory Facebook saveDSA page, you would get eaten alive by all the die hard fans out there. Great factual & informative post Pug.
Though I’ve seen those groups I have no interest involving myself in them. I can understand they have to control the narrative to some degree, otherwise they risk losing support.

Views are my own interpretation of the situation and not necessarily with all the intricate details in hand, however I believe there is enough in the public domain to go off to confidently reach the conclusion that I have.
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Old 16th Jun 2023, 18:42
  #1231 (permalink)  
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Here is your latest joint statement copied from MP Nick and his selfie stick:

AIRPORT UPDATE - WEEK 48

We have issued a joint statement following the briefing held this morning. It reads as follows:-

Joint statement from the Mayors of Doncaster Ros Jones and South Yorkshire Mayor Oliver Coppard and Doncaster’s 3 MPs (Ed Miliband, Rosie Winterton, Nick Fletcher MP.

This latest update encompasses the matter of controlled airspace at Doncaster Sheffield Airport (DSA).

In an earlier update, we outlined that the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) will on Monday June 19 close its window for comments on the latest stage of its proposal to change the airspace associated with the airport. At this point - Step 5a - of the airspace change process, a ‘call-in window’ is opened in which anyone can make a request that the final decision on the airspace change is made by the Secretary of State for Transport Mark Harper instead of the CAA. Only the more significant changes can be ‘called in’ in this way, and even if a proposal meets the criteria to be called-in, the Secretary of State does not have to call it in.

The City of Doncaster Council is taking part in the process and has asked that the Secretary of State calls in the Airspace Change Proposal (ACP) for DSA and that the airspace is suspended rather than permanently changed. The council has asked for any decision to be delayed until the end of the year as it is in active commercial negotiations with Peel over lease terms. If the lease does not happen then the council is still prepared to compulsory purchase the site.

DSA is an important regional and national infrastructure asset that underpins economic growth, spatial development and transport strategies in South Yorkshire. It is central to helping the area level up and we remain committed to reopening DSA.

#SaveDSA #Doncasterisgreat
Still focussing on airspace and seemingly ignoring the bigger picture..

Also, would the person copying and pasting my posts on here into Facebook please stop? Posts on PPrune are meant for PPrune and not some 2bit Facebook account.

Last edited by pug; 17th Jun 2023 at 16:16.
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Old 1st Jul 2023, 15:48
  #1232 (permalink)  
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Latest update in a nutshell is that, after over six months of discussions with Peel over a lease, the Council are now to go to market to attract investors to take on the operation and make the capital investment required.

I thought they already had ‘interested parties’..?
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Old 2nd Jul 2023, 09:30
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Probably "interested" but not "stupid"

Good luck in the current climate and with interest rates where they are
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Old 2nd Jul 2023, 12:00
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Originally Posted by pug
Latest update in a nutshell is that, after over six months of discussions with Peel over a lease, the Council are now to go to market to attract investors to take on the operation and make the capital investment required.

I thought they already had ‘interested parties’..?
Need to be see to have an open, competitive process?
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Old 2nd Jul 2023, 13:48
  #1235 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
Need to be see to have an open, competitive process?
No doubt. Expect that Peel will have some stringent criteria to come to the table and seriously consider a lease agreement. They aren’t going to allow the council to run it, nor will they be interested in a ‘UAE Consortium’. They couldn’t flog it when it was open it so I’m unsure what’s changed as surely a lease agreement will be far less attractive to any budding investor than the ownership of the freehold.
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Old 3rd Jul 2023, 08:44
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It's being put to market as the council will be the head leaseholder. What terms have been negotiated between the council and Peel will of course be commercially confidential.
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Old 3rd Jul 2023, 10:19
  #1237 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by davidjpowell
It's being put to market as the council will be the head leaseholder. What terms have been negotiated between the council and Peel will of course be commercially confidential.
It is not clear in any of the updates that Peel have agreed to any terms of lease, just that they may be amenable to the idea. Also, as far as I can see the council have not announced that they are the head leaseholder. In fact they appear to be careful not to provide any detail in that whatsoever which could be misleading.

From the outside looking in, the Council appear to be acting as the middle-man to bring investor(s) to the table for Peel to consider, whilst using the threat of CPO in an effort to force their hand. Much the same as they did when they were trying to force a sale.

Whatever may or may not be agreed, it will have to have a sufficient ROI for Peel to even seriously consider. This then comes back to the general belief that Peel have either purposefully or inadvertently mismanaged the airport during its operational history. There are those of us who believe this is the case, then there are those of us who find it inconceivable that they would, over a period of 25 years, invest vast amounts in fighting for it, building it and subsidising perennial losses into a site just to receive a couple of roads so that they can close it.

It is for this reason I find it difficult to believe that any investment would get past the due diligence of any experienced airport operator, unless of course there is the promise of more funding available in the form of (significant) public subsidy to limit risk.

Also announced last week was a plan by LBA, as part of the redevelopment due to commence in September, that there will be an extra 10 aircraft stands created. That is a huge increase which suggests they are optimistic of agreeing terms with another base operator. With LBA being on a continued growth trajectory and EMA holding the cards with the freight integrators, still find it hard to believe there is much else to squeeze out of the already competitive market. The application for LBA airspace change proposal has been escalated and is likely to move to public consultation. It has been stated that should DSA reopen, it will have to work around the new LBA airspace allocation.

Last edited by pug; 3rd Jul 2023 at 11:39.
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Old 4th Jul 2023, 13:15
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It is what it is. There was an early version of the announcement with an ugly worded statement that DMBC would be the leaseholder. I'm sure they have something different in place to make it worth the effort of going back to market.

As for LBA. Who cares. It's a second rate airport which is even harder to get to than Manchester. What will be will be. We just have to wait and see if anyone is biting.
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Old 4th Jul 2023, 13:27
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ihave used dsa and lba many times,and lba is not a second rate airport.
an.
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Old 4th Jul 2023, 13:45
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Originally Posted by davidjpowell
It is what it is. There was an early version of the announcement with an ugly worded statement that DMBC would be the leaseholder. I'm sure they have something different in place to make it worth the effort of going back to market.

As for LBA. Who cares. It's a second rate airport which is even harder to get to than Manchester. What will be will be. We just have to wait and see if anyone is biting.
That may be the case but like it or not the fortunes of LBA have a direct impact on the scope of any development at DSA, MME and HUY. EMA compounds this. This year will be LBA busiest year on record, it has more than doubled in size since DSA opened. I know everyone seems to believe DSA was mismanaged, but evidence would suggest it wasn’t and the operating company were offering competitive incentives and subsidies to attract airline investment which had little success in real terms.

Agree though, it rests on whether anyone credible will make any serious approach to a lease/sub-lease, but you cannot ignore the factors of growth at LBA and neither will any interested party who may or may not be interested in joining the Council in their endeavours. There has to be market support, the airlines/freight companies in this case are key stakeholders who will have to have some level of interest before anyone will seriously consider investing anything into the venture, regardless of how many people say they’d fly from there if there were ‘flights to the right places’.
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