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Doncaster Sheffield-3

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Doncaster Sheffield-3

Old 22nd Nov 2023, 22:18
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Originally Posted by flybar
I can't find anywhere that it is stated that the four invited to tender have committed to using the site as an airport.
I think thatís sort of implied

Given the local authority keeps saying reopen ďDoncaster Sheffield AirportĒ and ďSouth Yorkshire Airport CityĒ implying an airport surrounded by opportunities, businesses, homes, etc like the original masterplan from way back when
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 17:20
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New steps forward.

Doncaster-Sheffield Airport: Major step toward re-opening airport with £138m for 10-year plan (msn.com)
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 17:33
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£138 million of public money to re-open DSA ? Is this really the best use of the cash ? Can nobody find any other infrastructure projects in south Yorkshire that would be more beneficial to the residents ?

Wizzair are cutting routes heavily at Leeds.
Easyjet tried and failed at DSA.
Ryanair are big in Birmingham, East Midlands, Leeds, Manchester
Flybe tried and failed at DSA.
The cargo at EMA showed no serious desire to move to DSA while DSA was open.
Jet2 showed no serious desire to move to DSA.
KLM have not shown any serious interest in DSA for many years

So it's going to be a big pile of public cash to subsidise people potentially travelling to Mediterranean beaches in the summer and make-work schemes in winter, while LBA remains open ?

Last edited by davidjohnson6; 8th Feb 2024 at 18:03.
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 18:11
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6
£138 million of public money to re-open DSA ? Is this really the best use of the cash ? Can nobody find any other infrastructure projects in south Yorkshire that would be more beneficial to the residents ?

Wizzair are cutting routes heavily at Leeds.
Easyjet tried and failed at DSA.
Ryanair are big in Birmingham, East Midlands, Leeds, Manchester
Flybe tried and failed at DSA.
The cargo at EMA showed no serious desire to move to DSA while DSA was open.
Jet2 showed no serious desire to move to DSA.
KLM have not shown any serious interest in DSA for many years

So it's going to be a big pile of public cash to subsidise people potentially travelling to Mediterranean beaches in the summer and make-work schemes in winter, while LBA remains open ?
.

just close LBA. Itís in a stupid place anyway.

more seriously they have done a lot of work on the value to the region. If itís accurate itís sensible to reopen and even better if it turns out that another operator can do a better job.



Last edited by davidjpowell; 8th Feb 2024 at 18:44.
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 18:46
  #1385 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by davidjpowell
.

just close LBA. Itís in a stupid place anyway.

more seriously than done a lot of work on the value to the region. If itís accurate itís sensible to reopen and even better if it turns out that another operator can do a better job.
LBA is indeed in a stupid place, but it is at least close to Leeds and Bradford. Google tells me Finningley is over 40 miles from Leeds, so I can't see how DSA could replace Yeadon.

Does South Yorkshire or the East Midlands need another airport? The performance of DSA ver. 1.0 suggests not.
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 19:25
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Originally Posted by ATNotts
LBA is indeed in a stupid place, but it is at least close to Leeds and Bradford. Google tells me Finningley is over 40 miles from Leeds, so I can't see how DSA could replace Yeadon.

Does South Yorkshire or the East Midlands need another airport? The performance of DSA ver. 1.0 suggests not.
you are surely not new to the topic..

dsa has a longer runway and far less affect from the weather. I can get to the centre of Leeds more quickly from finningley than from from Leeds Bradford..

more seriously itís not going to replace LBA, but has a decent catchment area plus cargo potential.

what is frankly unknown is whether the theory that Peel were not running the airport effectively holds water or not.

time will tell.

but ultimately the worst case is everyone pulls out sooner, running costs get cut off and Peel gets their development site back early with improved planning potential
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 19:31
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I agree that DSA as a standalone airport has a longer runway, better long-distance road connections and is less prone to bad weather. However, why did Easyjet who are normally a highly competent LCC fail at DSA ? Why did Jet2 stick with LBA ? DSA was running as a commercial airport for 17 years, yet it never managed to hit 1.5 million pax per year.
Yorkshire's big great airport sees about the same pax numbers as London's 5th busiest airport. I'm struggling to understand why Yorkshire needs to spend a very large public subsidy on a 2nd airport when it could spend the same money on other infrastructure projects. Putting the money towards (part of) the cost of upgrading the Hull-Sheffield-Manchester rail line could really have an impact on the region's economy.

Last edited by davidjohnson6; 8th Feb 2024 at 19:49.
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 19:41
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The decent catchement area is well served by other airports. Is the cargo potential something more than the odd ad hoc charter, as that won't sustain the business.

DSA is relying on other airports filling up (the Southend of the North) or whoever comes in has to have a new business model which isn't dependent on attracting traffic from it's neighbours - they all have the incumbent advantage.
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 19:47
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6
I agree that DSA as a standalone airport has a longer runway, better long-distance road connections and is less prone to bad weather. However, why did Easyjet who are normally a highly competent LCC fail at DSA ? Why did Jet2 stick with LBA ? DSA was running as a commercial airport for 17 years, yet it never managed to hit 1.5 million pax per year.
Yorkshire's big great airport sees about the same pax numbers as London's 5th busiest airport. I'm struggling to understand why Yorkshire needs to spend a very large public subsidy on a 2nd airport when it could spend the same money on other infrastructure projects. Bradford Interchange (as an example, albeit admittedly in west Yorkshire rather than south Yorkshire) desperately needs money spent on it.
Principally this is a South Yorkshire issue, and West Yorkshire can but out, especially Bradford Interchange. The money is coming from the SYMCA region, and if it makes financial sense for the region (not forgetting as a region they can look for a wider benefit than a direct profit from the airport), then so be it.
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 19:49
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The money is coming from the UK taxpayer.
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 20:00
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Originally Posted by davidjpowell
The money is coming from the SYMCA region, and if it makes financial sense for the region (not forgetting as a region they can look for a wider benefit than a direct profit from the airport), then so be it.
What is this wider benefit to south Yorkshire of subsidising DSA as an airport ? In 2019, I didn't see many succesful business-oriented routes, routes with inbound tourism or other routes that might lead to a boost specifically to south Yorkshire's economy. Flybe was not a successful airline. Wizzair are in serious financial trouble (even apart from the P&W engine issue) - they are cutting routes to the UK outside London, not growing them. The only real benefit I can think of is that people living in south Yorkshire have a shorter journey time and possibly pay slightly less when they head off to a Mediterranean beach. Lot of public money to spend on making it easier to get to a beach outside the UK. Lot of public money that could be spent on other infrastructure with a year-round benefit in south Yorkshire.
The people of Kent and Lancashire (both of which have larger populations than south Yorkshire) both seem to have realised that it's just not necessary to spend large amounts of money to have their "own" passenger airport when there's a very large and busy one with plenty of routes relatively nearby. Instead Kent and Lancashire councils spend their funds on things that will make a real difference to their residents' lives instead of boasting about the size of their p***s extension

Last edited by davidjohnson6; 8th Feb 2024 at 20:15.
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 20:00
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
The money is coming from the UK taxpayer.
for South Yorkshire...
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 20:13
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Originally Posted by davidjpowell
for South Yorkshire...
Absolutely, but the people of South Yorkshire aren't being asked to put their hand in their pockets.
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 20:21
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
Absolutely, but the people of South Yorkshire aren't being asked to put their hand in their pockets.
No one is being asked to do that. The mayor is using some of his transport allocation at the airport. No extra funding is required.
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 20:24
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Originally Posted by davidjpowell
No one is being asked to do that. The mayor is using some of his transport allocation at the airport. No extra funding is required.
That money could be used on other infrastructure in south Yorkshire instead. Better roads. Better trains. Better buses.The kind of transport infrastructure that people use 51 weeks of the year. There are dozens of potential low-budget high-local-impact projects in south Yorkshire that really need the money.
Instead the day-to-day stuff gets starved and has to continue to rot while the blingy once-per-year stuff gets a huge pile of cash.
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 20:34
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Originally Posted by davidjpowell
No one is being asked to do that. The mayor is using some of his transport allocation at the airport. No extra funding is required.
Yes - that's my point. See there is a mayoral election due in May
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 20:47
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
Yes - that's my point. See there is a mayoral election due in May
Probably why he is supporting the airport. It's a popular issue in the region.

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Old 9th Feb 2024, 01:05
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Originally Posted by davidjpowell
you are surely not new to the topic..

dsa has a longer runway and far less affect from the weather. I can get to the centre of Leeds more quickly from finningley than from from Leeds Bradford..

more seriously itís not going to replace LBA, but has a decent catchment area plus cargo potential.

what is frankly unknown is whether the theory that Peel were not running the airport effectively holds water or not.

time will tell.

but ultimately the worst case is everyone pulls out sooner, running costs get cut off and Peel gets their development site back early with improved planning potential
No it doesnít. They did offer amongst the cheapest landing fees in the country, EMA and LBA being similar, but they needed volume to make it pay. Low passenger uptake on certain routes made the airport undesirable to operate into for the few volume carriers available. TUI found some success, as did Wizz. Jet2 would probably do ok but they probably wouldnít entertain the idea due proximity to LBA EMA. Cargo, itís too close to EMA so purpose built facilities to handle the lucrative stuff wasnít a viable investment.

Fail to see how the fundamental issues with DSA 1.0 would be circumvented under a different ownership model (often forgotten that the airport has already had two separate owners during its lifespan, one of which was a global airport operator and that conveniently never gets a mention!), assuming they intend to target passenger and freight flights. Apparently will be down to the appointed operator to develop the site, not sure how palatable that would be given they wonít own it. More than likely theyíll just run it for a couple of years whilst the subsidies dry up then leave it for someone else to manage.

Youre probably spot on with the last paragraph, it will be houses by 2036.

Last edited by pug; 9th Feb 2024 at 09:13.
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Old 9th Feb 2024, 10:16
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£138M is not a lot of money and the first question is what could be achieved with it.

LBA and EMA do exist - but EMA actually doesn't do that well as a passenger airport as it is and is reliant on cargo for viability. LBA is no the best operationally but it is local catchment and log term airport airline bases which matter. LTN is arguably similar. No one suggests it should be closed.

Objectively, the DSA experiment failed I'm afraid - let it go. Don't let it raise people's hope as a political football.
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Old 9th Feb 2024, 10:42
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Originally Posted by 22/04
£138M is not a lot of money and the first question is what could be achieved with it.

LBA and EMA do exist - but EMA actually doesn't do that well as a passenger airport as it is and is reliant on cargo for viability. LBA is no the best operationally but it is local catchment and log term airport airline bases which matter. LTN is arguably similar. No one suggests it should be closed.

Objectively, the DSA experiment failed I'm afraid - let it go. Don't let it raise people's hope as a political football.
exactly!!
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