CORK - 5

[840]

The timetable seems to be settling down a bit now, so we no longer have anomalies like 5 aircraft leaving on a Thursday morning.

As far as I can tell, the bones are the changes amounts to one rotation per week lost from each of Rome, Barcelona, Paris and Lanzarote and more significant cutbacks on Malaga. The beneficiaries are Birmingham and Manchester. Because of the length of the flight sectors, they've managed to squeeze out more rotations out than were lost.

Good to see Birmingham at last getting a business-friendly timetable back. We haven't had one since Aer Arann were on the route. It would be good if we could have the same for Manchester. While fares are lower now and seat numbers higher, BA's 3 flights a day of a decade ago was way more convenient.

Does anyone else think it was a bit late to make these changes considering the new timetable comes into effect in 8 weeks?

[RE72]

Ema / Ger

Any more news on the rumoured EMA and Germany services.

Getting late in the day to launch for winter I assume?

[Tom the Tenor]

And now for the shipping news. It appears that the Port of Cork are hard at work trying to get a passenger & car ferry to sail from a port in the north of Spain to Cork for next year's summer season.

Hardly aviation news really, of course, but a part of me just cant help wondering whether a certain other party and their nearby maritime cohorts would try to poach that away too from the Cork area.

There was a mug that contacted the Neil Prendeville Show on Cork's local 96FM radio about two weeks ago. Guess what this guy's gripe was? You are going to love this! This ghoul was complaining that the earliest public transport could get him to snn in the morning from Cork was 9 am so missing the first raft of departures by the world's favourite airline!

How much harder is it for Cork Airport dealing with a mentality like that - is it any wonder there has been no transatlantic/long haul destinations etc down the years?

Not too much else going on at Cork lately. The Mint 757 did an Air Mediterreane flight from Lourdes this morning. Only for some bizjets from the likes of Netjets it would have been on the soft side recently for new visitors.

One other bit of good news for anyone visiting Cork is that the city centre area around the main street, Patrick Street, is looking so handsome now at the moment as the recent substantial building refurbishments around Dunnes Stores and the Academy Street area come to an end. It really looks very well indeed and well worth a visit and if it was Galway, Dublin, Limerick or anywhere else there would be some great crowing about it but what do we get instead in Cork?

A whinge about when the first bus gets to snn! It could only happen in Cork!

[Provance]

Below is a brief look at how the ORK based aircraft will operate for winter 09-10. EI do not seem to be utilising their aircraft to the max


Monday


plane 1 6:40 - 12:25 (MUC) 13:30 - 16:15 (MAN) 17:00 - 21:30 (AMS)
plane 2 6:10 - 10:15 (AMS) 11:00 - 17:10 (APG) 18:10 - 21:25 (BHX)
plane 3 7:30 - 11:10 (LHR) 11:50 - 15:20 (LHR) 16:00 - 19:20 (LHR) 20:00 - 23:25 (LHR) plane 4 7:00 - 10:05 (BHX) 10:50 - 13:25 (CDG) 15:30 - 00:20 (ACE)











Tuesday


plane 1 06:40 - 12:10 (SXF) 13:15 - 16:20 (BHX) 17:20 - 20:35(BCN)
plane 2 06:10 - 08:55 (AMS) ?? 10:50 - 13:25 (CDG) 15:30 - 00:30 (TFS)
plane 3 07:30 - 11:10 (LHR) 11:50 - 15:20 (LHR) 16:00 - 19:20 (LHR) 20:00 - 23:25 (LHR) plane 4 07:00 - 12:45 (FAO) 13:30 - 16:15 (MAN) 17:00 - 21:30 (AMS)






Wednesday


plane 1 6:40 - 12:25 (MUC) 13:30 - 16:15 (MAN) 17:00 - 21:30 (AMS)
plane 2 6:10 - 10:15 (AMS) 11:00 - 17:10 (APG) 18:10 - 21:25 (BHX)
plane 3 7:30 - 11:10 (LHR) 11:50 - 15:20 (LHR) 16:00 - 19:20 (LHR) 20:00 - 23:25 (LHR) plane 4 7:00 - 10:05 (BHX) 10:50 - 13:25 (CDG) 15:30 - 00:20 (ACE)






Thursday


plane 1 06:40 - 12:10 (SXF) 12:50 - 15:55 (BHX) 16:30 - 19:35 (BHX) 20:05 - 22:50 (MAN) plane 2 06:10 - 10:15 (AMS) 10:50 - 13:25 (CDG) 15:40 - 22:55 (FCO)
plane 3 07:30 - 11:10 (LHR) 11:50 - 15:20 (LHR) 16:00 - 19:20 (LHR) 20:00 - 23:25 (LHR) plane 4 07:00 - 12:45 (FAO) 13:30 - 16:15 (MAN) 17:00 - 21:30 (AMS)






Friday


plane 1 06:40 - 12:25 (MUC) 13:30 - 16:15 (MAN) 17:00 - 21:30 (AMS)
plane 2 06:10 - 10:15 (AMS) 11:00 - 17:10 (APG) 18:10 - 21:25 (BHX)
plane 3 07:30 - 11:10 (LHR) 11:50 - 15:20 (LHR) 16:00 - 19:20 (LHR) 20:00 - 23:25 (LHR) plane 4 07:00 - 10:05 (BHX) 10:50 - 13:25 (CDG) 17:20 - 20:35(BCN)






Saturday


plane 1 06:40 - 12:25 (MUC) 13:40 - 22:40 (TFS)

plane 2 06:10 - 10:15 (AMS) 10:50 - 13:25 (CDG) 15:30 - 00:20 (ACE)
plane 3 07:30 - 11:10 (LHR) 11:50 - 15:20 (LHR) 16:00 - 19:20 (LHR) 20:00 - 23:25 (LHR) plane 4 07:10 - 09:55 (MAN) 10:25 - 13:30 (BHX) 14:20 - 20:05 (FAO)






Sunday


plane 1 06:40 - 12:10 (SXF) 13:15 - 16:20 (BHX) 17:00 - 21:30 (AMS)
plane 2 06:10 - 10:15 (AMS) 10:50 - 13:25 (CDG) 15:40 - 22:55 (FCO)
plane 3 07:30 - 11:10 (LHR) 11:50 - 15:20 (LHR) 16:00 - 19:20 (LHR) 20:00 - 23:25 (LHR) plane 4 07:00 - 13:15 (APG) 13:50 - 16:35 (MAN) 17:20 - 23:10 (BCN)

[brian_dromey]

@Provance,

How would you suggest they increase their utilisation? All turns seem to be 35-45 minutes, all aircraft are doing a minimum of 6, some 8 sectors a day. I honestly do no see any way to increase the utilization of the fleet further, without sacrificing reliability and creating inconvenient arrival/departure times.

Brian.

[Provance]

@brian_dromey

Ah, you see, this is where your attention to detail need some work

For example- there are some anomalies in the timetable, for example 10:50 - 13:25 (CDG) 15:30 - 00:20 (ACE), thats nearly 2 hours on the ground, plus on a tuesday evening there is an aircraft grounded from 20:35(BCN). There are several more examples like this

[sam1993]

As in the example you have given, if the ACE flight is moved forward to a 14.15 departure for example, then it would be returning just after 11pm. It would therefore operate no further flight that day so in this case it makes no difference how long the turnaround time is to the aircraft utilisation (in fact leaving 2 hours minimises delays!)

[Provance]

2 hours on the ground isn't great utilisation ... there are several other examples in the timetable, that was just one I pointed out for example. I've always thought EI were crazy not to operate to LGW from ORK. At one point, EZ had 3 daily flight and FR had 3 daily flights. Surely EI could profitably operate to LGW - perhaps a morning flight that could connect to the afteroon departures from LGW, and an evening flight ... One can dream

My core point is that the winter timetable from ORK isnt a tight as it could be. You'd never see FR leave an aircraft for 2 hours on the ground during the day

[isayoldchap]

"you'd never see FR leave an aircraft for 2 hours on the ground during the day"

No indeed how true, they tend to park them up for 24 hours at a time at various eastern european airports..

[Provance]

thats really clever .... I was clearly referring to aircraft that FR have in service

[en2r]

2 hours on the ground isn't great utilisation ... there are several other examples in the timetable, that was just one I pointed out for example. I've always thought EI were crazy not to operate to LGW from ORK. At one point, EZ had 3 daily flight and FR had 3 daily flights. Surely EI could profitably operate to LGW - perhaps a morning flight that could connect to the afteroon departures from LGW, and an evening flight ... One can dream

My core point is that the winter timetable from ORK isnt a tight as it could be. You'd never see FR leave an aircraft for 2 hours on the ground during the day

But you're wrong, there are no 2 hour turnarounds. Your figures have a good few mistakes. For example:

plane 2 06:10 - 08:55 (AMS) ?? 10:50 - 13:25 (CDG) 15:30 - 00:30 (TFS)

Amsterdam doesn't return until 10.15. There is then just a 35 minute turnaround before operating to Paris-CDG. The Paris flight doesn't return until 14.45, before operating the Tenerife just 45 minutes later, and doesn't arrive back in Cork until after midnight. I'd consider that the absolute maximum utilisation you can get from an aircraft.

@brian_dromey

Ah, you see, this is where your attention to detail need some work

For example- there are some anomalies in the timetable, for example 10:50 - 13:25 (CDG) 15:30 - 00:20 (ACE), thats nearly 2 hours on the ground, plus on a tuesday evening there is an aircraft grounded from 20:35(BCN). There are several more examples like this

I think its your attention to detail that needs work. Again, you're wrong. The Barcelona doesn't return until 23.10 every day it operates. Also (as mentioned above) the Paris doesn't land back in Cork until 14.45 each day so you have that wrong as well.

There are absolutely no 2 hour turnarounds with any of the Cork based aircraft, I repeat none. The last aircraft to depart is the LHR at 7.30 in the morning (and that late departure is due to LHR slots), and the first back is the Birmingham at 21.25. The Cork based Ryanair aircraft has much worse utilisation than any of the Cork based Aer Lingus aircraft, and spends a lot more time on the ground. I think you should get your facts right before making anymore incorrect posts.

[en2r]

Looks as if Cork East Midlands is about to start for the 3rd time since 2002. Hope it's third time lucky.

Rumour on the East Midlands thread is that BMI Baby are to have another go at the Cork to East Midlands route.

[Provance]

@brian_dromey

Your attention to detail is spot on


@en2r

Thanks for pointing out my error ..... oh the shame

[brian_dromey]

Lads, even if EI did have 2 hour pit-stops at ORK, it would not be much good to them, realistically thats only 35-40mins flying time, maybe a quick hop to SNN could be squeezed in, but that would be about it.

I usually do up an execl sheet of the timetable, so I'll make my own judgments. With 4 aircraft, only 2/3 short routes and long-ish flights to Europe, there is only so much EI can do...

AFAIK there are a few problems with the LGW rote from ORK. 1st being the aircraft would have to be ORK based, to get a decent schedule (i.e. morning and evening flights) a fifth aircraft would need to be send down to us, the other problem is FR, they might just ramp up flights to LGW, at crazy low fares. FR would most likely base a second aircraft in ORK, no doubt that aircraft would fly elsewhere, do EI really need to invite than kind of competition and cash drain into ORK at the present time?

Good news on the EMA route. Nice to see bmibaby making a go at it again. Any news on frequencies? Over the years they have tried LGW, EMA, BHX, MAN, CWL, they seem pretty committed to ORK. Hopefully they will stick with EMA and MAN in the long term.

Brian.

[OliWW]

Frequencies will be released tomorrow when the flights go on sale, should be operated on a B733 though, im thinking between 4 and 7 flights a week

[jiffajaffa]

The Cork based Ryanair aircraft has much worse utilisation than any of the Cork based Aer Lingus aircraft, and spends a lot more time on the ground.

Thr FR aircraft in ORK is one of the most utilized in the fleet it operates 10 sectors a day thats 10 take offs and 10 landings in a single day, the winter schedule is back into place for the crew which mean the early crew do 6 sectors which consist of ORK-DUB, DUB-ORK, ORK-DUB, DUB-ORK and ORK-LGW, LGW-ORK with the first departure at 07.40 local and the late crew do 4 sectors ORK-DUB, DUB-ORK, ORK-DUB, DUB-ORK and there first departure is 17.05 the aircraft arrives in from LGW at 16.00 and the late crew are in the air by 17.05 so can you tell me how this is badly utilized if all the turnarounds are 25mins? The aircrafts longest stay on the ground is usually in the region of 1hr and 10mins for the crew change...

I think you should get your facts right before making anymore incorrect posts.

..........

JJ

[en2r]

Thr FR aircraft in ORK is one of the most utilized in the fleet it operates 10 sectors a day thats 10 take offs and 10 landings in a single day, the winter schedule is back into place for the crew which mean the early crew do 6 sectors which consist of ORK-DUB, DUB-ORK, ORK-DUB, DUB-ORK and ORK-LGW, LGW-ORK with the first departure at 07.40 local and the late crew do 4 sectors ORK-DUB, DUB-ORK, ORK-DUB, DUB-ORK and there first departure is 17.05 the aircraft arrives in from LGW at 16.00 and the late crew are in the air by 17.05 so can you tell me how this is badly utilized if all the turnarounds are 25mins? The aircrafts longest stay on the ground is usually in the region of 1hr and 10mins for the crew change...

It may operate 10 sectors but they're all very short. The current timetable is:
07.40-08.30 Cork to Dublin
08.55-09.45 Dublin to Cork
10.10-11.00 Cork to Dublin
10.35-12.25 Dublin to Cork
12.55-14.20 Cork to London Gatwick
14.50-16.15 London Gatwick to Cork
17.05-17.55 Cork to Dublin
18.20-19.10 Dublin to Cork
19.35-20.25 Cork to Dublin
20.50-21.40 Dublin to Cork

The Ryanair aircraft is only timetabled to spend 9.5 hours (or 570 minutes)in the sky per day. The Aer Lingus aircraft with the worst utilisation is the aircraft which operates to/from Heathrow (the bad utilisation is due to LHR slots) but thats still timetabled to operate for approximately 10.5 hours in the sky (or 625 minutes). The turnarounds may be longer but do you really think you could do 25 minute turnarounds at Heathrow?The best utilised Aer Lingus aircraft is the one that operates to Amsterdam, Paris and Lanzarote/Tenerife which spends just under 15 hours (or 880 minutes) in the sky on some days. Therefore I am completely justified in saying that the Cork based Ryanair aircraft is less utilised than any of the Aer Lingus Cork based aircraft, because it spends more time on the ground than any of the Aer Lingus aircraft do.

[brian_dromey]

Interesting take on things guys. Given that FR (and EI) take significant sums on charges such as baggage and in-flight sales in theory the FR schedule should be better, i.e. more people = larger market to sell to. However having taken numerous flights ORK-DUB with FR I have seen few (frequently no-one) pony-up for the priority boarding, drinks on-board, scratch-cards, bus transfers etc - but the flight is so short I don't really see the need.

In other news Air France has pulled the SNN-CDG service. Poor loads and yields apparently.

[jiffajaffa]

The Aer Lingus aircraft may spend more time in the air than the Cork FR aircraft but in terms of rotations the Cork FR aircraft is maxed out and it is not possible for it to do anymore rotations so therefore it is the most utilized with a max of 10 rotations per day, block times for Dublin are 50 mins and LGW is 1hr 25mins, I didnt say anything about doing a 25 min turnaround in LHR but im certain Aer lingus turnarounds are nowhere near the 25mins FR have so therefore there aircraft could prob be utilized more.

If FR had more aircraft in Cork you can be guaranteed that the aircraft would be utilized to the max, however im afraid this probably will never happen..

On another note, recently in the past 2 months I have never seen the Airport and terminal so quiet, was parked up a few weeks ago on a Sat in the middle of August supposed to be the busiest day for the airport and we were the only airplane on the ramp and it didnt look like there was many pax hanging around in the departure lounge either, kinda shocking to see the airport so quiet and it can only get worse for the Winter! Fuellers have reported a huge drop in business and dispatchers are saying they have never seen the place so quiet!


JJ

[en2r]

The Aer Lingus aircraft may spend more time in the air than the Cork FR aircraft but in terms of rotations the Cork FR aircraft is maxed out and it is not possible for it to do anymore rotations so therefore it is the most utilized with a max of 10 rotations per day, block times for Dublin are 50 mins and LGW is 1hr 25mins

Thats not true. At one stage (I think it was Summer 2007 but feel free to correct me) Ryanair operated 12 rotations - 5 return flights to Dublin and a return to Gatwick using the one Cork based aircraft. It used leave at 6.45AM and used not return until 23.10 each night. I really don't agree with your rationale for saying that Ryanair's Cork based aircraft is the most utilised. One of Aer Lingus's Cork based aircraft flies for 15 hours per day, and is in use from 6.10AM until 00.30 the next morning with turnarounds of 35 and 45 minutes (including crew changeover) at Cork yet only operates 6 rotations per day (all to continental Europe and the Canaries). Using your rationale thats terrible utilisation, yet you're saying the Ryanair Aircraft which only flies for 9.5 hours per say (7.40AM to 21.40PM) with a lot more time on the ground during the day but operates 10 much shorter rotations has brilliant utilisation??? Using your rationale, no one should operate longer routes to Continental Europe from Cork, they should all just operate 20 times per day to Dublin thus achieving the maximum number of rotations from their aircraft??

I didnt say anything about doing a 25 min turnaround in LHR but im certain Aer lingus turnarounds are nowhere near the 25mins FR have so therefore there aircraft could prob be utilized more.

Some of the turnarounds at Cork are only 35 minutes (for example between the Paris and the Amsterdam in the mornings). The max turnarounds are usually about 45 minutes (even if there is a crew changeover - thats quicker than Ryanair who allow at lease 50 minutes when there is a crew changeover!). Aer Lingus can't do anthing about the LHR slots, so even if they had 25 minute turnarounds at Cork (and not Heathrow) they'd still be restricted by the LHR landing slots and their departure time (regardless of the turnaround time) would therefore be restricted by the available landing slot at Heathrow. Amsterdam, Paris etc. are the same being slot restricted airports. Even if Aer Lingus tightened up their turnarounds, there just isn't room in the schedule to fit anything else in.